< 1050799844 0 :SamB!naesten@64.3.60.127 JOIN :#esoteric < 1050801830 0 :gilbertdeb!~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-29.dad.adelphia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1050801851 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1050802075 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1050802096 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rebol?> < 1050802111 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it esoteric? < 1050802133 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't aim to be esoteric, AFAIK. < 1050802162 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone here play with it? < 1050802170 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't think of any other chanels. < 1050802188 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... except for pldi. < 1050802347 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rebol is not esoteric at all. < 1050802364 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just obscure and weird :) < 1050802376 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... Thin line, if you ask me ;) < 1050802396 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess intent is important < 1050802418 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rebol is obscure and weird despite the author's wishes < 1050802478 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... So there's no such thing as an unintentionally esoteric language? < 1050802494 0 :deltab!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I have a more inclusive interpretation of 'esoteric' than you < 1050802517 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taaus: well, perhaps the author is a madman < 1050802523 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taaus: Which seems to be fairly common < 1050802531 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just about to say that. Heh. < 1050802541 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess a language constructed by a madman would be esoteric. Perhaps rebol can qualify for that. < 1050802552 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/would/could < 1050802564 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the author once(?) wrote a forth. < 1050802612 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think that's sufficient :) < 1050802618 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rebol qualifies then by reputation? < 1050802619 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has to! < 1050802632 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forth is fairly esoteric, though < 1050802649 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't say :D < 1050802665 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :htrofroloc even more so. < 1050802668 0 :deltab!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I'd say there are different levels of esotericity < 1050802694 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deltab: ranging from merely broken to transcendentally weird? :) < 1050802700 0 :deltab!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1050802754 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who decides if a language is esoteric, though? < 1050802772 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, well, that is obvious. < 1050802774 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do. :) < 1050802864 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Esotericity is fuzzy. < 1050802871 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are j/k esoteric enough? < 1050802879 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And probably NP-complete as well ;) < 1050802888 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j/k? < 1050802900 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jsoftware.com kx.com < 1050802901 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :J and K. < 1050802913 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if a useable language can be considered esoteric. < 1050802925 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are useable by their authors for sure. < 1050802926 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like Haskell < 1050802927 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are pretty esoteric, I guess... But they do have a lot of usability. < 1050802955 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1050802961 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've used J. It is... Interesting :) < 1050802965 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some languages are esoteric because they're intentionally obfuscated < 1050802979 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it never occured to me to label J as esoteric. < 1050802989 0 :deltab!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd call J esoteric < 1050802992 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Others are esoteric because they use wacky concepts < 1050803007 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does J use wacky concepts? :) < 1050803007 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I guess APL is esoteric as well? < 1050803020 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taaus: what did you use j for? < 1050803067 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gilbertdeb: Oh, just small things... Messing around with various mathematical calculations with matrices and whatnot... I gave up trying to use it for anything big. < 1050803088 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to mess around with it too. < 1050803099 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but my skills in matrices were severely lacking. < 1050803124 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :matrices seem to be such an ugly thing to base a language on. < 1050803134 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: it is based on arrays. < 1050803145 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can do something like 2 + [arraylist] < 1050803181 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and because of that you don't have to explicitly write many loops. < 1050803181 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could get away with just one in a major application. < 1050803225 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arrays are tremendously ugly as well :) < 1050803251 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why k, inspired by apl, bases its stuff on lists. < 1050803260 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: therefore j/apl qualify!! < 1050803278 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1050803289 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I liked the / (over) and \ (prefix) modifiers... But I couldn't get used to referring to them as 'adjectives'... Actually none of the 'grammatical' nomenclature really clicked with me... < 1050803289 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tremendous ugliness doesn't make a language esoteric. < 1050803294 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ is not esoteric. < 1050803295 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't? < 1050803300 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm. < 1050803308 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although Perl almost is. < 1050803330 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taaus: the uglier it is, the more english like they claim it actually is. < 1050803331 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree... Perl is way too widely used to be called esoteric, IMO. < 1050803345 0 :SamB!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh! < 1050803360 0 :SamB!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taaus: maybe thats why he said almost < 1050803409 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl is one of the languages where obfuscation comes naturally < 1050803428 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SamB: Well, yes... But there's a difference of at least a few orders of magnitude between the number of Perl users and the number of users of esolangs... And I wouldn't call that 'almost' :) < 1050803453 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taaus: but they don't even suspect it's an esoteric language! < 1050803464 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hehe. < 1050803468 0 :SamB!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it creeps up on you from behind and grabs you < 1050803470 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many are called, few are chosen < 1050803503 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many people who are into Scientology don't suspect how fucked up it is, either < 1050803530 0 :SamB!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1050803533 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Perl is written by a madman :) < 1050803563 0 :SamB!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does everyone know about it but scientologists? < 1050803581 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. < 1050803588 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Designed by a madman, written by several madmen, I'd say ;) < 1050803615 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taaus: Well, now it's being designed by the collective insanity of the whole world :) < 1050803651 0 :SamB!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taaus: scientology... I think scientology only had *on* madman... < 1050803731 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure.. I'm still talking about Perl :) < 1050803781 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose I make a language based on some wacky concept, with no intention of it being actually used < 1050803787 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then it turns out to be the next big thing < 1050803792 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will it be esoteric? < 1050803828 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say no. < 1050803831 0 :deltab!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1050803853 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn < 1050803859 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i won't do it :) < 1050803877 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does esotericity require a small user base? < 1050803880 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure whether I should be relieved or disappointed ;) < 1050803928 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gilbertdeb: Depends on what you think of as 'user' < 1050803945 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gilbertdeb: what happened to bsd? < 1050803949 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the human writers/thinkers/speakers. < 1050803954 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh 'tis a sad story. < 1050803968 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the installer wouldn't boot on this machine :( < 1050803973 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and debian seduced me. < 1050803982 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've written 'hello world' in smalltalk; am i a smalltalk user? < 1050804006 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I've said 'hello' in japanese, am I a speaker of japanese? < 1050804008 0 :SamB!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: not really < 1050804014 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gilbertdeb: i'm asking you :) < 1050804030 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gilbertdeb: because your definition of 'user' sucks < 1050804039 0 :SamB!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you haven't done anything you couldn't have more easily done in another language < 1050804049 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not sucky, it just allows a lot of fluff in. < 1050804051 0 :SamB!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with the smalltalk one, that is) < 1050804054 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My mother is a human writer/thinker/speaker < 1050804064 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She never heard of smalltalk, but she would be a smalltalk user by your definition. < 1050804070 0 :deltab!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fuzzy < 1050804090 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :user of language X. < 1050804093 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X being anything. < 1050804103 0 :gilbertdeb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any programming language that is. < 1050810457 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1050817181 0 :lament!~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1050825599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1050825600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1050829383 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Well shirigim duraham da..." < 1050845308 0 :Aardappel!wvo96r@p508C6D0F.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1050855821 0 :Aardappel!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1050865017 0 :lament!~lament@h24-78-145-92.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1050868939 0 :Aardappel!wvo96r@p508C5565.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1050869530 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Aardappl < 1050869534 0 :Aardappl!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :lament