< 1057709527 0 :Navigator!~andreou@ppp7.ee.teiath.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1057709532 0 :Navigator!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :werd. < 1057709561 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Word up, y'all. < 1057710309 0 :Navigator!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Andreou < 1057710379 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Andreou in the hizouse. < 1057716703 0 :lament!~lament@h24-87-73-230.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1057719606 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: You consider HQ9+ to be a programming language, then? < 1057719620 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taaus: Yes. < 1057719624 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok. < 1057719632 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taaus: Also my programming language I sent to the esolang a year ago < 1057719646 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that converted every line of input from into "Hello, !" < 1057719665 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe nobody objected there :) < 1057719714 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about a language that has the implementation 'int main(void) { return 0; }'? A true NULL language. :) < 1057719794 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In C, naturally) < 1057719803 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe. < 1057719810 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that works too. < 1057719811 0 :Andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tur-in-complete. < 1057719823 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, it has no programs. < 1057719843 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I rather like the language with just one instruction, "nop" < 1057719845 0 :Andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming language is defined as? < 1057719846 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's just dandy... That means pretty much everything is a programming language... < 1057719861 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's special because it doesn't need an implementation < 1057719862 0 :Andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament no, if the interpreter takes no input, there can be no programs, not even NOP programs. < 1057719865 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its programs run themselves < 1057719877 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Andreou: yes, i'm talking of a different language. < 1057719911 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Andreou: the best definition of 'programming language' i know of is 'a formal method for definition of a class of machines' < 1057719919 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've successfully made a definition that's useless. Have you considered working on a standards committee? < 1057719924 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where a machine is something that can change state, e.g. operate < 1057719932 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :taaus: it is not useless < 1057719941 0 :Andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahahah < 1057719953 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh? < 1057719976 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taaus: well, perhaps it is, so give me a better one! < 1057719984 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Teehee. < 1057719991 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm perfectly content with this one, though < 1057720119 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you really insist, I can say "non-empty class of machines" instead < 1057720248 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I still don't think it's a good definition... It certainly isn't intuitive... The problem is that HTML "programs" are constant, in a sense. They'll always produce the same output when run on a specific interpreter. < 1057720273 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought that would be a good thing :) < 1057720289 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you looked at _code? < 1057720296 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, hell, postscript? < 1057720306 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1057720315 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you say they're not programming languages? < 1057720322 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're turing complete. < 1057720326 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't have input. < 1057720328 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is... _All_ HTML programs are constant. That's not so for Postscript. < 1057720350 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's true for _code, which is turing complete < 1057720361 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not familiar with _code. Got a link? < 1057720362 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's true for Zot where input is a part of the program < 1057720377 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for Iota and Jot that don't have input < 1057720409 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, no link for _code < 1057720445 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but here's 99 bottles of beer in it < 1057720449 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1green bottle][2hanging on the wall.\n][3`#`$# 1$, 2''][4`Q`Z`q`z3(Q)(Z)3(Q < 1057720449 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :)(Z)And if one 1 should accidentally fall,\nThere\'d be 3(q)(z)\n''''][6`A`a < 1057720449 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`s`Q`B`b`z4(A)(s)(b)(z)Q(B)(b)(z)'''''''][+(s)(6)]6(Ten)(ten)+(Nine)(nine)+( < 1057720449 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eight)(eight)+(Seven)(seven)+(Six)(six)+(Five)(five)+(Four)(four)+(Three)(th < 1057720449 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ree)+(Two)(two)+(One)(one)()(`X`Y`Z''')()(no)(s) < 1057720486 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a language that was intended to replace geek code < 1057720495 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, yes... It's all coming back now. < 1057720689 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There must be some way to define the difference between _code and what you might call the "cat" programming language. (I.e. the language that just returns whatever input it's given) < 1057720730 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, _code is turing-complete. < 1057720764 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that seems to be irrelevant. < 1057720770 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you cut HTML does it not bleed? < 1057720781 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lets try. < 1057720859 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION briefly wonders if the inclusion of and tags makes a difference < 1057721073 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remind me again why TC isn't a good measure of whether or not a language is a programming language or not. < 1057721108 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because of the arbitrarily big memory requirement for turing-completeness. < 1057721122 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Languages don't have memory requirements... < 1057721127 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brainfuck does! < 1057721137 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then Brainfuck isn't a language. < 1057721150 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A programming language, that is. < 1057721155 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just a glorified markup language, then. < 1057721174 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha. < 1057721196 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though it's capable of an arbitrarily large subset of turing-complete programs < 1057721214 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the brainfuck family) < 1057721223 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION smiles and nods < 1057721242 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Serves it right! < 1057721264 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There're probably other languages that have memory requirements. < 1057721274 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assemblies. < 1057721315 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly. That doesn't change anything, though. < 1057721360 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, any definition of programming languages which excludes brainfuck is morally wrong. < 1057721397 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really... Brainfuck with limited memory can't execute all the programs a Turing Machine can. < 1057721409 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brainfuck _without_ limited memory is a programming language. No contest there. < 1057721473 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, we could call limited-memory languages "computers" :) < 1057721497 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hehe, sure. :) < 1057721530 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would confuse the hell out of everybody. < 1057721549 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay esoteric. < 1057721555 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... That's the whole point of existence, innit? < 1057721624 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And BEST! < 1057721633 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can even calculate prime numbers < 1057721636 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :This just in: HTML solves the halting problem! Millions rejoice! < 1057721639 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but is not turing complete :( < 1057721658 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And malbolge! < 1057721663 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And hq9+!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! < 1057721675 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This reminds me of Floop, Bloop and Gloop from GEB. < 1057721743 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't read that. < 1057721746 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I? < 1057721756 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd recommend it. < 1057721774 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. < 1057721788 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He defines three different languages (with the aforementioned names) one of them isn't TC, but it is able to emulate anything one of the other TC languages can do. < 1057721839 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Bloop has only got constant for-loops, whereas Floop has while-loops. If you put in a large enough constant, then Bloop is nearly as powerful as Floop. < 1057721874 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GEB sounds like something i really have to read, which is why I don't. < 1057721882 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1057721919 0 :Andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Adios." < 1057722211 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps I should read it anyway. < 1057722226 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet it wouldn't hurt ;) < 1057722282 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably know everything it says. Which is bad because I should've just read it instead of all that other stuff! < 1057722896 0 :dbc!ttm@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1057722975 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dbc: see log! < 1057723019 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm reading it. < 1057723323 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe, I like this /. comment about the complexity of computer jargon < 1057723332 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : You're absolutely right. Instead of saying "megahertz," we should say "three billion individual operations every second." Instead of "MP3 file," we should say "pirated Metallica songs." Instead of "Bluetooth," we should say "magic." < 1057723364 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to approach the definition problem another way, to make it match the common usage of the phrase "programming language" better. < 1057723387 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to start out by saying a programming language is a language you can use to tell a computer to do things... < 1057723445 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the part where I beat you with a stick. < 1057723456 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But do go on :) < 1057723529 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And add a few refinements. Specifically, I would say you can use it to tell a computer to do several different possible things; this rules out null languages and those that always do exactly the same thing. Your language that outputs "Hello, !" is right in the borderline. < 1057723604 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also, a strong connotation of "program" is that you can give the computer a reasonably long list of things to do, and after you finish giving it the list it will go ahead and do all of them, rather than you having to tell it things one at a time. < 1057723634 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any definition which involves "computer" is evil, though. < 1057723683 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise, your definition is pretty much the same as mine. < 1057723707 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. I think the answer there is to broaden the definition of "computer", not to stop using it. < 1057723756 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is turing machine a computer? < 1057723781 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I wouldn't broaden it too far. Stack machines are fine, but a four-function calculator isn't. Again, I'm trying to match common usage, which doesn't speak of "programming" anything very different from a computer... < 1057723794 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Turing machine is a computer, yes. < 1057723826 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, a real Turing machine. < 1057723849 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you just reduced the problem to an equally complex related problem. < 1057723867 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorta like compiling Brainfuck to Ook. < 1057723870 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, defining "computer"? < 1057723888 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1057723914 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's to be expected. There isn't going to be a neat mathematical formulation that matches common usage. < 1057723967 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By common usage, lots of things count as "programming languages" that aren't Turing-complete even if you neglect the unlimitedspace requirement. < 1057723975 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But common usage is evil. < 1057723999 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In common usage, somebody says "HTML is a programming language, i learned it at school", and the response is "FUCK YOU!" *ban* < 1057724003 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If common usage is evil, then common words are evil. Rather than try to make a fresh definition of the phrase "programming language", just stop using it. < 1057724065 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is indeed a good policy, for lots of words, but I don't have enough aversion to "programming language" to stop using it myself. < 1057724082 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't either. But definitions are nice. < 1057724094 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, people actually _argue_ about things like this. < 1057724103 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(without looking for a definition) < 1057724122 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1057724157 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's not often that people argue about programming languages. < 1057724163 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("good" is one word that I keep meaning to stop using for similar reasons, but it's a difficult habit to break.) < 1057724207 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But arguments about scripting languages, OO, etc < 1057724212 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are very common. < 1057724227 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dbc: and "is"! < 1057724239 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. Plus, is a program that bundles an interpreter with source code a "real" compiler. < 1057724246 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :&c. < 1057724655 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way to get precision, if we want it, is to stick with concepts derived from mathematics, and which have not been firmly co-opted for nontechnical uses. That's my view. < 1057725146 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"You have no chance to survive make your time." < 1057735503 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1057737599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1057737600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1057758554 0 :andreou!~andreou@ppp6.ee.teiath.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1057758560 0 :andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :total power. < 1057758592 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Total people. < 1057758651 0 :andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have come to the conclusion that you are a radical anarchist. Our satellites will track you down, our operatives will kill you and we will laugh as you make it into the statistics. < 1057758667 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More spam email, eh? < 1057758668 0 :andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(boo) < 1057758671 0 :andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehe < 1057758681 0 :andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't believe how much. i can't stand it. < 1057758701 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, don't get mad, get even. < 1057758703 0 :andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's more, it's real-time spam. i am logged in to the mail account and i receive spam. < 1057758706 0 :andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1057758719 0 :andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how could i get even? < 1057758722 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, don't get mad, get odd. < 1057758732 0 :andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read the spam? < 1057758752 0 :andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had a friend that read spam. terrible things happened to him. < 1057758757 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poor sod. < 1057758793 0 :andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid bastard were my words... read spam, who did he think he were, arnold blackanger? < 1057758820 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... Some people think they can handle it... < 1057758884 0 :andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait until the spam gene is found and the first bio-weapon engineered. *then* we will have some fun... >:-D < 1057758901 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I shudder at the thought. < 1057758943 0 :andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i laugh uncontrollably at the thought. < 1057758951 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You MADMAN! < 1057759050 0 :andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not a madman, i am a visionary. < 1057759089 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's that you said? Missionary? < 1057759124 0 :andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehehhehe < 1057759155 0 :andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm an ASS member -- Anti-Spam Sect. < 1057759237 0 :Taaus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How nice. < 1057759486 0 :andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm gone. < 1057759489 0 :andreou!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"gone." < 1057790708 0 :Aardappel!wvo96r@p508C6844.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric