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13:33:03 <Taaus> Moo.
13:33:12 <andreou> Mu.
13:33:25 <Taaus> That too.
13:33:51 <andreou> Hell, that one rhymed as well!
13:35:23 <Taaus> Hehe.
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18:17:10 <Taaus> Heya lament.
18:18:06 <lament> hi
18:18:15 <lament> where's everybody again
18:18:28 <Taaus> Dunno. Eating peanuts, probably.
18:18:30 <lament> this channel is hopeless! We should just merge with #scheme
18:18:39 <lament> they're talking more about esoteric stuff than we do :(
18:18:49 <Taaus> Bah.
18:19:07 <Taaus> andreou and I do our best. ;)
18:19:14 * lament reads the logs
18:19:41 <Taaus> So... Any thoughts on Loell?
18:30:21 <lament> Um
18:30:35 <lament> Did I understand correctly that there can only be one prototype?
18:31:24 <Taaus> Dunno... Why?
18:31:37 <lament> It seems a very stupid limitation
18:31:42 <lament> Unless i'm missing something obvious
18:32:48 <Taaus> It's been a while since I looked at it last, but I imagine you could change it (in Loell code) to support more than one prototype.
18:33:35 <lament> hm.
18:34:05 <lament> expr < exprs > 
18:34:09 <lament> Creates a new object, using expr as prototype (stored in the proto property). The current scope is stored in the scope property. If expr is ommited, Any is used. exprs is evaluated in the current scope, but with current set the newly created object. 
18:34:25 <lament> So apparently the 'proto' and 'scope' properties are hard-wired
18:35:26 <Taaus> No argument there.
18:36:50 <Taaus> Hmm... If it had something akin to doesNotUnderstand:, then it might be possible.
18:39:47 <lament> The whole idea of first-class scopes is wonderful, though.
18:39:55 <Taaus> Indeed.
18:39:55 <lament> Slate has that.
18:40:04 <lament> Have you looked at slate?
18:40:10 <lament> Well, I guess python has it too
18:40:18 <Taaus> Only briefly.
18:40:19 <lament> but not really!
18:40:28 <Taaus> water talks about it a lot in #squeak ;)
18:40:46 <lament> It's neat.
18:41:11 <Taaus> So I've heard :)
18:41:33 <lament> you can send messages to the "context object"
18:41:41 <lament> I think ^ is such a message
18:42:20 <lament> as are local variables... but i might be wrong
18:42:55 <Taaus> There's a lot of talk on the "Pragmatic Programmers" mailing list these days... A bunch of people are going to try to develop a "pragmatic" language (called Pragmatic. Duh)
18:43:20 <lament> what's that?
18:43:24 <Taaus> I think it'll turn into a big ball of mud... If anything at all.
18:43:27 <lament> I thought C was pragmatic
18:43:33 <lament> or fortran or something
18:43:57 <Taaus> Heh... Well... That's the problem... People have different views of what 'pragmatic' entails ;)
18:45:45 <lament> one moment
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22:14:33 <lament> ok, so it wasn't a moment
22:18:54 <lament> hm
22:19:11 <lament> Are there any hierarchitectitiptitoploftical languages?
22:20:02 <Taaus> Maybe.
22:20:12 <Taaus> It really depends on what the heck you're talking about :)
22:20:34 <lament> I dunno. It's from finnegans wake.
22:20:52 <Taaus> Hmm... No longer using #python on Efnet? :)
22:21:04 <lament> :(
22:21:40 <Taaus> Wait... pyn is gone?
22:22:08 <Taaus> Why, Satan, why!?! Why did you take one of your own?!?
22:24:00 <lament> He ran away with exarkun.
22:24:05 <lament> They're having a vacation together.
22:24:24 <Taaus> Oh, right... I knew that. I was there when he asked if someone else could host pyn. '
22:24:27 <Taaus> D'oh.
22:24:35 <Taaus> And you offered to host it ;)
22:24:36 <lament> Somebody else couldn't :(
22:24:44 <lament> I didn't!
22:25:01 <Taaus> Oh? Well, exarkun _wanted_ you to host it, ne?
22:25:02 <lament> Not only I'm using my parents' computer
22:25:12 <Taaus> But you couldn't... Etc. etc.
22:25:20 <lament> We're also moving and i don't even have internet at home
22:25:25 <Taaus> Ah.
22:25:30 <lament> Which so far seems to be a good thing!
22:25:35 <Taaus> Quite a nasty situation, I imagine.
22:25:41 <lament> No.
22:26:05 <Taaus> Oh? I guess some people like moving... *shrug*
22:26:07 <lament> When I have internet, I waste all my time chatting with idiots on IRC
22:26:09 <lament> er
22:26:11 <lament> i mean...
22:27:08 <lament> We (my family) moved about seven times in the last ten years
22:27:20 <lament> well, maybe fifteen years
22:27:33 <Taaus> Wow.
22:27:48 <lament> But now we finally _bought_ a house
22:28:36 <Taaus> I've moved... Twice. In my entire lifetime.
22:29:24 <lament> see.
22:29:27 <lament> therefore,!
22:29:48 <lament> I don't understand loell
22:29:55 <lament> What does this do?
22:29:58 <lament> Foo bar = 42
22:30:09 <lament> sorry
22:30:23 <lament> Foo.bar = 42
22:30:47 <Taaus> Sets bar to 42 in the expression Foo?
22:31:19 <lament> but there is no expression foo!
22:31:38 <Taaus> Your point being?
22:32:35 <lament> Foo.bar = 42; Foo   // returns failure
22:32:40 <Taaus> I know.
22:33:00 <Taaus> It's a... Quirk ;)
22:33:06 <lament> I don't understand.
22:33:37 <lament> I would understand if it returned some object.
22:33:40 <Taaus> There is no Foo... But there is a Foo.bar...
22:33:59 <Taaus> What would you expect Foo to be?
22:34:03 <lament> But that's *wrong*
22:35:15 <lament> I would expect Foo.bar = 42 to cause an error
22:35:29 <Taaus> The really fun part is when you do 'Foo.bar = 42;Foo = 3;Foo' ... It returns failure.
22:35:41 <lament> Hah
22:35:48 <Taaus> Did I mention that Loell was quirky?
22:35:57 <lament> er
22:36:00 <lament> it returns 3 for me
22:36:28 <Taaus> Ah, this is probably due to Quirk #2...
22:36:49 <lament> 'quirk' is a good name for a programming language.
22:36:53 <Taaus> There's something very bizarre about the interpreter. It doesn't reset the environment between compilations, or something.
22:37:25 <lament> reload the page :)
22:37:32 <lament> although, i don't believe you.
22:38:09 <Taaus> Well, maybe he's fixed it... But it definitely carried over _something_ when I tried it originally..
22:38:21 <lament> hm.
22:38:29 <Taaus> Running the exact same piece of code twice gave different results.
22:38:34 <lament> Anyway, assignment to nonexistent objects is wrong.
22:38:47 <Taaus> Cry me a river.
22:39:01 <lament> OH
22:39:03 <lament> I GOT IT!
22:39:03 <Taaus> :P
22:39:10 <Taaus> What?
22:39:11 <lament> It makes perfect sense
22:39:18 <lament> there's no Foo
22:39:25 <lament> so Foo.bar is actually failure.bar
22:39:30 <lament> Foo.bar = 3
22:39:31 <lament> failure.bar = 5
22:39:31 <lament> Foo.bar
22:39:36 <lament> This returns 5 :)
22:39:36 <Taaus> Hah. Interesting.
22:39:51 <lament> ok it makes sense then.
22:39:57 <lament> Although I'd rather have an exception.
22:41:05 <Taaus> Bah. Why clutter the language with exceptions? :)
22:41:50 <lament> when you can simply extensively test every expression!
22:42:13 <Taaus> Precisely.
22:42:24 <Taaus> Don't forget which channel this is...
22:42:28 <lament> still, this is vile and Perlish.
22:42:38 <lament> Esoteric is one thing, Perlish is another
22:42:44 <lament> Or maybe not.
22:44:51 <lament> also it seems i can't assign to failure
22:45:00 <Taaus> Yeah.
22:45:49 <lament> failure = 5
22:45:53 <lament> failure == 5
22:46:03 <lament> This returns 5, which is supposed to be success
22:46:14 <lament> Xyzzy
22:46:17 <lament> This returns failure.
22:46:59 <lament> By the way i think it should be trivial to compile loell to python
22:47:27 <Taaus> Great. 
22:48:29 <lament> the only problem would be weird scoping
22:48:40 <lament> but the scoping is not that weird.
22:49:01 <Taaus> Ok. I'll look forward to your implementation :)
22:49:25 <lament> no! don't.
22:49:44 <Taaus> Why not? 
22:49:57 <lament> I'm not gonna write it.
22:49:59 <Taaus> Why not? 
22:50:13 <Taaus> Meh. Gotta go.
22:50:16 <Taaus> Talk to you later.
22:50:21 <lament> Bye.
23:36:34 * Taaus returns
23:36:41 <lament> no!
23:36:54 <Taaus> I'm afraid so.
23:38:47 <Taaus> So, anyway... You were saying?
23:39:20 <lament> No i wasn't.
23:39:33 <lament> Except that I'm not going to write loell
23:39:36 <Taaus> Why not?
23:39:41 <lament> Why yes?
23:39:48 <lament> In python!
23:40:29 <Taaus> Because it'd be a great learning experience. Now tell me why not.
23:40:59 <lament> Because it'd be a great learning experience!
23:41:04 <lament> Actually, because it wouldn't.
23:41:13 <Taaus> Oh?
23:41:27 <lament> Compiling it to python? Of course not.
23:41:35 <lament> Python already can do everything loell does.
23:41:49 <Taaus> Ehm... Who said anything about compiling to Python? I certainly didn't.
23:41:57 <lament> I did!
23:42:20 <lament> 14:37 < lament> By the way i think it should be trivial to compile loell to
23:42:22 <lament>                 python
23:42:28 <lament> 14:39 <@Taaus> Ok. I'll look forward to your implementation :)
23:43:23 <lament> Writing an interpreter for it in C would be fun, I guess.
23:43:23 <Taaus> I love it when people say 1) It's trivial, but 2) I won't do it. 
23:43:32 <lament> because it's not trivial!
23:43:36 <lament> the boring parts are not trivial
23:43:38 <lament> like writing the parser
23:43:51 <Taaus> Bah. Writing a parser is trivial.
23:44:00 <lament> never!
23:44:07 <Taaus> Absolutes are boring.
23:44:22 <lament> always!
23:44:26 <Taaus> You suck.
23:44:30 <lament> never!
23:44:35 <Taaus> Now read this conversation in reverse.
23:44:43 <lament> noooo
23:44:49 <lament> ok
23:44:52 <lament>  <@Taaus> Now read this conversation in reverse.
23:44:55 <lament> < lament> never!
23:45:17 <Taaus> I'm curious... What _do_ you do with your time? Besides talking about things you won't do?
23:45:37 <lament> You're right.
23:46:28 <Taaus> Heh.
23:46:46 <lament> Well, I'm supposed to be writing the z-machine assembler
23:46:50 <lament> I probably will, eventually
23:47:06 <lament> Once that's done, I might write some cool language that would compile to it.
23:47:29 <Taaus> Freak! I'll look forward to it. Is that permitted?
23:47:40 <lament> yes.
23:48:04 <lament> Who needs Parrot when there's the Z-machine?
23:48:26 <lament> (also, who needs Parrot when there's no Z-machine)
23:48:41 <Taaus> Good point.
23:56:07 <lament> Tiny objecty languages are always fun, but they always lack something.
23:56:13 <lament> Usually something which Python doesn't lack.
23:57:06 <Taaus> I know what you mean. Significant whitespace.
23:57:25 <lament> !!!!
23:57:27 <lament> No.
23:57:31 <Taaus> ;)
23:57:46 <lament> s/No/Not really
23:57:56 <lament> Io, for example, is not _that_ bad.
23:58:19 <Taaus> Io is... Too young :/
23:58:25 <lament> If it had a generally accepted module system, it would be usable.
23:58:43 <lament> but it doesn't, and it's not.
23:59:18 <Taaus> Well... The same can be said of Scheme, can't it?
23:59:23 <lament> Yes.
23:59:40 <Taaus> Hmm... Pity :/