2003-08-01: 00:29:26 c u in a week or so 00:29:28 -!- andreou has quit. 00:37:35 What was the rewriting language where rules could be rewritten? 00:38:15 Um... Can you be more specific? 00:38:30 do you know any languages like that? :) 00:38:50 the same basic idea as thue 00:38:58 Was it... 2d? 00:39:07 i think so. 00:40:08 it was kinda weird and complicated, though. 00:40:23 Hmm... I think Chris Pressey did a 2d rewriting language... 00:40:32 Of course, catseye seems to be down at the moment. 00:43:46 I remember not liking that language, though 00:43:51 (unlike thue) 00:44:15 It wasn't as nifty. 00:44:51 yes 00:45:00 but the _idea_ of rules rewriting rules is nifty. 00:45:01 I stumbled across a 3d version of a Thue-ish language... A Japanese program... Someone had implemented space invaders in it :) 00:45:10 whoa. 00:46:04 I also found a paper that mentioned a 2d version. I would have preferred that one, but it wasn't available anywhere. 00:47:09 Why don't you design a rule-rewriting Thueoid? :) 00:48:05 I'm not sure how to design one. 00:48:13 A 2d thue would'nt be hard to do 00:48:29 I assume substitutions preserve the size? 00:48:44 Yes. They did in the Japanese program. 00:48:54 that spoils some of the fun 00:49:01 also i'm not sure how it would do IO 00:49:22 I seem to recall there being more than just the analog of the Thue ::= mapping. 00:49:34 but that sucks :) 00:50:02 I think it may have had AND gates, or some similar concept... Rewritings that depended on more than one pattern being present. 00:50:10 oh. 00:50:24 bah. 00:50:40 This is just my hazy recollection, though. 00:51:07 A self-modifying thue without the 2d evilness would be neat, though 00:54:20 Found it! 00:54:22 Visulan. 00:54:27 http://www.yuasa.kuis.kyoto-u.ac.jp/ylab/yamakaku/Dms96/dms96.html 00:55:46 It's cute :) 00:56:26 * Taaus wanders off to watch The West Wing. 00:56:46 oh, wow 00:56:48 very cute. 00:56:51 But not really thue 00:56:53 ish 00:57:21 well, i guess it is 00:57:29 anyway, ew windows :) 01:00:34 oh err 01:00:42 ah. 01:00:56 2d thue is too much like cellular automata. 01:01:06 and therefore not very exciting! 01:15:42 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 04:27:23 -!- dbc has joined. 04:28:16 I thought the Thue example programs were a mess. Increment should be something like: 04:28:16 0_::=1 04:28:16 1_::=_0 04:28:16 __::=_1 04:28:16 ::= 04:28:43 and decrement should be something like: 04:28:44 0_::=_1 04:28:44 1_::=0 04:28:44 _0::=_ 04:28:44 ::= 05:20:52 -!- dbc has quit ("You have no chance to survive make your time."). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 17:44:58 -!- lament has joined. 17:46:02 dbc: neat 17:48:17 I wrote a visual thue interpreter at home. 17:48:26 It highlights the substitutions. 17:48:47 But I don't have internet, so I can't show it to anyone! You'll just have to trust me! Mwahaha. 18:59:30 hm, how do you write quines 20:32:36 -!- lament has quit ("leaving"). 22:06:37 -!- lament has joined. 22:21:54 wee 22:22:00 i'm writing a thue interpreter in Javascript 22:22:16 Nice. 22:22:40 it will be visual 22:23:37 Oh, joy. 22:27:54 well, not very visual 22:28:17 Oh, not so much joy, then. 22:32:42 :( 22:32:51 Joy sucks anyway 22:33:04 forth is neater 22:33:37 Haha.. 22:38:25 i'm serious! 22:38:28 well, not really 2003-08-02: 00:10:02 wowee 00:10:03 it works! 00:10:12 i just need to prettify it a bit now 00:19:46 ok, so it doesn't _really_ work 00:42:58 Well, I _almost_ believed you... :x 00:47:36 ok, it appears to work 00:47:45 how do i set fixed-width font in html? 00:50:17
 ?
00:50:42  no, that's a bit different
00:50:46  hmm
00:53:22   ?
00:54:28  neither works with 
:( 01:07:27 Hm, fixed font is not enough anyway. Looks like i need
 after all.
01:10:26  gr.
01:11:18  I'll take your word for it.
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20:53:46  Heya lament. How goes the Thue interpreter?
20:54:36  hi
20:54:39  I just uploaded it
20:54:41  http://cyberspace.org/~lament/thue.html
20:55:02 -!- lament has set topic: http://cyberspace.org/~lament/thue.html - Instructions on the bottom of the can.
20:56:03  it's a bit ugly control-wise
20:56:15  in particular the "animate" button doesn't work :)
20:56:31  So I noticed ;)
20:56:31 * lament removes the button
20:58:11  The text on the buttons doesn't correspond to their function at all!
20:58:20  I should just leave the buttons blank to avoid confusion.
20:59:06  Good idea.
21:09:27 * lament posts to esolang
21:09:59  Now I will finally get the worship I deserve.
21:20:40  Note that arbitrary html code is allowed
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23:44:29  (while clog was away, somebody came and told us the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything, but this sentence is too small to contain it)
23:50:15  hm, clog doesn't notify of its own splits
23:50:40  leading to highly useful logs like http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/03.08.02
23:51:47  although perhaps that particular log doesn't have anything to do with clog :(

2003-08-06:

00:18:27  Day changed to 03 Aug 2003
00:18:27  Day changed to 04 Aug 2003
00:18:31  Bugger all happened that day.
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18:19:41 <`antilove> what the hell is thue ?!
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18:37:11  Rule 90 cellular automaton is scary
18:39:10  It reverses stuff
18:39:33  also, I can't find anything about this property on the net
18:41:20  !
18:41:33  wolfram doesn't seem to mention it
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18:53:55  Taaus: do you know anything about that property?
19:06:31 <`antilove> lament!
19:06:40 <`antilove> what is thue ?
19:06:51 <`antilove> a  new brainfuck ?
19:11:52  thue is thue
19:12:02  there was a thue page on catseye
19:12:10  of course, there is no catseye anymoer!
19:20:35  which kind of sucks.
19:20:43  but THIS is fucked up
19:21:20  | ## ##  ###    #|
19:21:20  |### ##### ##  # |
19:21:20  |# # #   # #### #|
19:21:21  |     # #  #  #  |
19:21:21  |    #   ## ## # |
19:21:22  |   # # ### ##  #|
19:21:25  |  #    # # #### |
19:21:27  | # #  #    #  ##|
19:21:30  |#   ## #  # ####|
19:21:32  | # ###  ##  #  #|
19:21:35  |#  # ####### ## |
19:21:37  | ##  #     # ###|
19:21:40  |##### #   #  # #|
19:21:42  |#   #  # # ##   |
19:21:45  | # # ##    ###  |
19:22:23  |#    ###  ## ## |
19:22:35  (Rule 90 automaton, random initial state)
19:22:45  Look closely at the first and the last step.
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18:48:05  Taaus: what exactly is an 'invention'?
20:12:51  Well, do you know what a fugue is?
20:18:40  yes
20:20:18  Okay, well, an invention is similar to a fugue, except that the Comes theme is in the same key as the Dux theme... Does that make any sense? :)
21:17:07  yes. What a stupid distinction.
21:17:48  Not really.
21:28:31  The two-part invention #13 starts with two voices.
21:28:40  If we're into hair-splitting, that doesn't look at all like a fugue to me.
21:29:26  Umm... Maybe that's because it's an invention?
21:30:56  if, like you said, the only difference is that the second theme is in the same key, then it's not an invention, either
21:31:55  Heh.. So you're claiming that none of Bach's fugues start with two voices?
21:33:48  I'm not claiming that.
21:34:00  I'm claiming that they shouldn't.
21:34:38  don't fugues absolutely have to begin with one voice?
21:35:11  No. The vast majority does, though.
21:38:55  Yes _all_ fugues have the second theme in the dominant?
21:39:06  that doesn't sound right :)
21:39:20  You're right... The 'Yes' sounds out of place in that sentence.
21:42:18  s/Yes/Yet
21:42:25  And it _still_ doesn't sound right :)
21:43:14  I'm pretty sure all fugues have the comes theme initially appearing in the dominant. 
21:46:16  If not, there would be no way of distinguishing fugues and inventions ;)
21:46:29  (As an example, that is)
21:46:41  I don't think so (about the dominant)
21:46:56 * Taaus decides _not_ to mention the Sinphonias.
21:46:56  http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~tas3/fugueanatomy.html
21:48:26  Gimme examples, not webpages :)
21:49:10  no!
21:49:24  I'll just assume that guy knows what he's talking about
21:49:28  mostly because he agrees with me
21:49:42  also because his animated WTC is awesome
21:49:51  *phew* That means I won't have to change my view of you... :X
21:50:08  well, it _is_ awesome.
21:50:33  do you know anything about cellular automaton 90?
21:50:56  Nope... Do you reckon there may be something about it in NKS?
21:51:10  perhaps
21:51:24  Well, I'll go check.
21:51:32  See, rule 90 has an extremely awesome property of reversing the state
21:51:36  (see yesterday's log)
21:51:51  But I didn't find anything about this on Wolfram's site.
21:51:54  Or anywhere else.
21:51:56  I noticed it :)
21:51:59  It's cool.
21:52:50  Perhaps Wolfram never found it becasue he's dealing with 'real' automata with unbounded states
21:52:58  Urgh... NLS... Painfully... Heavy...
21:53:00  *NKS
21:53:03  haha
21:53:07  Is it at least good?
21:53:17  All I know about it is from the /. review.
21:53:18  Not really. He's quite full of himself.
21:53:57  lol... Rule 90 has tons of references in the index.
21:54:15  i dont under what going on under  this channel
21:54:24  i dont understand what going on under  this channel
21:54:26  it's why i like it 
21:54:29  =)
21:58:30  Taaus: page 260, i guess
22:00:28  Hmmm...
22:01:11  interesting. The most interesting CA are 30,60,90,110,150.
22:01:33  all divisible by ten, all but one divisible by 30
22:07:23  I can't find anything about Rule 90 producing reversed patterns...
22:08:25  not even on page 260!
22:08:37  Especially not on page 260.
22:09:10  Heh... It just dawned on me that I have the New Grove Dictionary of Music... Maybe I should look up fugue and invention there :)
22:21:16  Fugue, n: see Invention
22:21:45  lol
22:23:37  Somebody on the esolang can't find anything about Thue.
22:24:34  I noticed. I wonder what's happened to Catseye.
22:25:21  stupid catseye.
22:27:58 * lament posts on comp.theory.cell-automata about rule 90

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18:51:23  I'm reading cryptonomicon!
18:51:30  One of the main characters plays Bach.
18:51:35  Go go go!
18:52:52  I ordered a bunch of Scheme books a couple of days ago. Little Schemer, Seasoned Schemer and SICP.
18:53:02  Go go go!
18:54:36  Will you read them?
18:54:46  Most likely.
18:55:00  Will I understand them? Buggered if I know...
18:55:31  You don't have to buy SICP to find out whether you can understand it.
18:55:49  True. 
18:55:58  There's an exact copy on the internet.
18:56:22  I know.
18:56:29  (is 1 an exact copy of 1?)
18:56:53  But I really don't like reading books on my computer. I prefer dead-tree versions :)
18:56:59  There is only one one.
18:57:10  there're two just in that sentence alone.
18:57:42  Too true.
18:58:00  Oh, I wrote a haiku:
18:58:04  ---
18:58:09  Five syllables.
18:58:12  Seven syllables.
18:58:16  Five syllables.
18:58:18  Three lines.
18:58:19  ---
18:58:41  Ehm.
18:58:48  what!
18:58:55  Not sticking with the regular haiku-form, then?
18:59:01  But I am.
18:59:06  The first line has five syllables.
18:59:14  The second has seven, the third again five.
18:59:21  And the poem has three lines.
18:59:44  Uh? Pray tell how does Seven give you two more syllables than Five?
18:59:57  it doesn't.
19:00:03  But the second line does have seven syllables.
19:00:13  in fact it _is_ seven syllables.
19:00:20  No... It has "Seven syllables"... It doesn't have seven syllables.
19:00:20  With a capital S.
19:00:27  There's a reason we use quotes...
19:00:40  !
19:00:46  Are you sure you haven't read GEB? :P
19:00:55  I will have to unquote them, then.
19:01:01  ,Five syllables
19:01:04  etc :)
19:01:18  :D
19:01:30  No, I haven't read GEB.
19:01:42  I started reading it.
19:01:53  Then I stopped.
19:02:05  Start again, heathen.
19:02:10  I don't really like it.
19:02:32  I would like it a lot had I read it a year ago.
19:02:41  It grows on you. Like fungus.
19:07:54  Not really.
19:07:58  It's black and white.
19:10:25  Fungus can be black and white.
19:11:50  Not the kind that grows on me.
19:12:07  Ah, okay.
19:12:38  I'm slowly moving into hardware esotericity.
19:13:15  real hardware?
19:13:19  Yes.
19:13:29  neat.
19:13:46  hardware scares me.
19:13:54  Me too. 
19:14:02  playing with it requires so much stuff i have 0 experience with.
19:14:10  Like soldering iron!
19:14:29  And hammering nails.
19:14:31  Soldering irons aren't that bad... You quickly figure out what _not_ to do.
19:15:34  Make a SKI processor.
19:16:00  Hmm... Interesting idea.
19:16:25  I was planning on doing something along the lines of a mixture (read: bastard child) of Forth and Scheme.
19:16:35  sounds like something i heard of.
19:16:47  It's probably been done before, yeah.
19:17:11  not in hardware.
19:17:16  http://www.hh.se/stud/d99tibr/chatboard.jpg <--- First I'll try to get one of these working with my GP32, though :)
19:29:59  On one hand, hardware is certainly cool.
19:30:59  On the other, why bother, when everything can be done in software with much less trouble and a greater potential user/worshipper base?
19:32:31  Well.. That Chatboard mod has a useful application... The GP32 only has an 8-way directional pad and six buttons.. It's hell to use a text editor on it.
19:33:27  Say... pyn is back now... Why are you on the freenode channel? ;)
19:34:05  oh, it is?
19:34:09  i didn't notice it.
19:34:14  Yes. exarkun is back too :)
19:34:48 * Taaus wanders off to eat dinner.
20:19:30 * Taaus returns
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19:54:44  48d6215903dff56238e52e8891380c8f
19:54:52  This string is an md5 of itself
19:56:23  sorry that doesn't work :(
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22:28:02  woohoo
22:28:14  Whaahaat?
22:28:17  i proved the [l.count(x) == l[x] for x in range(len(l))] thing
22:28:38  Unfortunately this channel is too small for me to write it down.
22:28:58  Riight.
22:34:21  I proved that there's only one solution for len(l) > 7
22:34:35  (for every len)
22:34:54  For every function?
22:35:08  um.
22:35:19  no!
22:35:20  That's wild, man.. I'd expect it to be for every len(l).
22:35:27  ha.
22:35:34  ;)
22:35:51  for every N.
22:36:17  for every N there's only one l such as that len(l) == N and [l.count(x) == l[x] for x in range(N)]
22:36:23  Where N > 6.
22:38:39  (THIS is why i haven't written down the proof)
22:39:10  Because you find it difficult to express yourself in precise terms? :P
22:39:20  Yes.
22:39:38  Ah.
22:39:41  Math just isn't woozy enough.
22:43:21  Nor fuzzy!
22:43:30  Mathematicians can only think inside the box!

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20:24:26  stupid bach! i hate him.
20:27:22  Oh?
20:27:59  yes!
20:28:06  He's absolutely _impossible_ to play on the guitar.
20:28:27  Well... That really depends on which piece you're trying to play.
20:28:44  I've heard some Bach pieces performed semi-successfully on the guitar ;)
20:29:01  well
20:29:10  You'd think the first prelude of the WTC would be easy.
20:29:28  And it is!
20:29:36  The first eight measures.
20:29:42  And then the guitar simply runs out of range.
20:29:55  I wouldn't. It's not. Not even on the piano... It's hell getting it to sound just right :)
20:30:05  Well... Transpose it, then ;)
20:30:28  but then it won't sound 'just right' whatever i do afterwards :)
20:30:40  Of course it's not easy.
20:30:45  Even Gould manages to get it horribly wrong ;)
20:30:50  Hah! Now I'm receiving spam advertising tools to use during a blackout.
20:31:59  A crowbar, a smoke grenade and a face mask?
20:32:16  Nah... A flashlight of some sort.
20:32:26  bah.
20:32:40  that's not very profitable.
20:33:18  Probably not.
20:37:20  Of course, i won't run out of range on the Chaconne...
20:37:40  I'd run out of lots of other things, though :)
20:37:52  Hehe.
20:47:14  And I hate the guitar anyway :(
20:47:39  Well... Play something else, then... Say, the violin :)
20:48:21  _no_.
20:48:38  I played the violin in the music school.
20:48:41  I _hate_ the thing.
20:49:13  Aha.
20:49:21  Ugly, wretched, horrible, loathsome.
20:49:31  Perl programmers play it.
20:49:53  Indubitably. And Python programmers as well.
20:50:07  At best, it sounds like a chainsaw being lowered into a toilet.
20:50:48  At worst, like a thousand monkeys freezing to death mid-scream
20:50:53  (image copyright john clute)
20:51:33  Mmmkay.
20:54:27  As you see, it's capable of expressing a very wide range of feelings :)
20:55:20  Indeed.
20:58:06  By the way, john clute rocks.

2003-08-17:

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00:40:40  Hi, Verbed.
00:41:46  Hello.
01:02:33  Verbed: you're in many channels.
01:06:25  I suspect I would miss many interesting conversations if I weren't.
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21:24:35  ha
21:24:38  http://www.jsbach.net/images/warp.html
21:27:25  Great... I made Bach look like Walter Matthau.
21:28:00  I've seen an applet that did that to Bill Gates
21:28:19  but that was on an anti-microsoft site, not a gates fansite
21:29:02  Maybe this just goes to show that jsbach.org is anti-bach!
21:29:57  wow: http://www.jsbach.net/images/Jordan6StringViolin.html
21:30:01  _that's_ esoteric.
21:33:27  Oooh. Electric violins.
21:33:38  Six stringed electric violins.
21:33:52  Indeed.
21:34:22  I wonder how is it played.
21:34:32  Like a regular violin.
21:34:40  No.
21:34:45  Why not?
21:34:50  It doesn't have a bow.
21:35:04  Duuuh, then you provide the bow yourself.
21:35:07  You can't play with a bow on six strings.
21:35:13  Sure you can.
21:35:15  The board is flat anyway.
21:35:34  It isn't. It curves slightly.
21:35:43  That's not enough.
21:35:50  It was enough when Bach lived.
21:35:56  No it wasn't.
21:36:03  Yes, it was.
21:36:13  No, it wasn't.
21:36:20  ...
21:36:32  Elaborate.
21:36:56  Maybe it was enough when Bach lived.
21:37:03  But certainly not for _six_ strings.
21:37:36  And you base this on... What?
21:37:52  My experience.
21:38:13  That's interesting... Because my experience tells me it would be enough.
21:39:24  How come all (that I know of) bowed instruments have four, or less than four, strings?
21:40:01  Dunno... Possibly you don't know a lot of bowed string instruments?
21:41:11  Likely.
21:41:23  Here's a hint. Go look up information on an instrument called 'viola da gamba'
21:42:04  Oh, look... First link on google shows a six-string viola da gamba...
21:42:08  Fancy that.
21:42:39  http://www.violadagamba.nl/pix/kampic.gif
21:42:47  See that curve?
21:43:10  Nothing like that curve on the electric violin.
21:43:21  Irrelevant... You claimed there were very few string instruments with more than four strings. 
21:43:33  Well, it is true :)
21:43:36  No.
21:44:10  I'm not even going to inquire why the da gamba effectively died out
21:44:20  but anyway!
21:44:37  But anyway you don't have an argument, so you'll try your best to move the conversation elsewhere.
21:44:44  No.
21:44:51  Doesn't it depress you to be wrong all the time?
21:44:56  We weren't talking about da gambas.
21:45:06  We were talking about that six-stringed violin.
21:45:44  Ah, so your 'nonexistance of >4-stringed instruments' argument was a straw man.
21:46:07  Yep!
21:46:16  and i didn't agrue nonexistance. Just ignorance.
21:46:25  ouch. "agrue".
21:46:28  Well, in that case, I won't bother talking with you... 
21:46:34  "It's pitch black, you're likely to be eaten by agrue."
21:46:58  Oh well.
21:47:19  In fact
21:48:32  In fact we were both quite wrong.
21:48:59  The violin is played with a bow, and the bridge is very curved.
21:54:10  http://www.barberatransducers.com/hybrid_violin.jpg
21:54:44  (5 strings)
21:55:08  ah, here's 6. http://www.barberatransducers.com/standard_violin.jpg

2003-08-18:

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03:54:22  I missed an interesting conversation.
03:54:34  Vibraphones can be bowed.
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06:30:14  Verbed: Yes, and there's also the nail violin...
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03:49:52  Playing the first prelude on the guitar is possible, after all.
03:50:22  A few notes had to be changed, and almost the whole thing transposed an octave or two up.
03:50:50  It does sound crappy, but at least I can use it as accompanement for Ave Maria.
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12:40:14  About four cups packed fresh basil leaves.
12:40:18  About one cup olive oil.
12:40:23  About one cup smashed pine nuts.
12:40:39  About one cup Parmigiano.
12:40:54  At least four big smashed garlic cloves.
12:41:01  About one teaspoon salt.
12:41:09  Blend thoroughly.
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18:28:28  This Choon language seems to be very cool.
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13:06:20  power.
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13:12:41  argh
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2003-08-31:

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01:51:14  !
01:51:23  i am back from hellish canoe trip!
01:51:47 * lament reads logs
01:52:37 * lament is horrified
01:52:40  they're empty :(
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20:58:35  heh
20:58:47  i'm writing a fugue (3 voices) for my hand drum.
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