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01:13:40 <heatsink> I discovered a perl obfuscator that was installed on my computer today!
01:14:25 <heatsink> You give it an input filename and output filename,
01:14:35 <heatsink> And it reads the input file and writes obfuscated perl to the output file
01:15:11 <Toreun> ooh, sounds... useless
01:15:47 <heatsink> I don't want to try that in #perl...
01:16:57 <Toreun> you never know with those perl programmers
01:20:10 <Toreun> check out the new design I made: http://www.toreun.org/esoteric
01:20:23 <Toreun> it'll be customizable, I'm just making a few samples
01:20:45 <Toreun> this one works better in IE... not sure about Konqueror, my KDE box is currently dead, so I can't test it
01:22:52 <Toreun> it is... well, my css'd version
01:23:42 <Toreun> it should look like... *screenshot* h/o
01:24:58 <heatsink> Did you send that to firstname.lastname@example.org?
01:25:27 <Toreun> no... I'm gonna put it on my server
01:26:25 <heatsink> hmm, are negative margins allowed?
01:27:24 <Toreun> http://www.toreun.org/esoteric/style1.png
01:28:49 <heatsink> The formatting of the boxes is strange
01:29:27 <heatsink> The <li> boxes are constant width and appear in front of the text
01:31:41 <Toreun> so you can't see the text?
01:31:57 <heatsink> I can see everything except for the last character
01:33:50 <Toreun> hmm... I suppose I could make the boxes a fixed width, but that could be bad when the links are long
01:34:03 <heatsink> I'm playing with the stylesheet now
01:34:32 <Toreun> I'll have to make a third one anyway... a very simple one
01:35:46 <heatsink> In #main p:first-line, add border: none
01:36:00 <heatsink> Otherwise, it inherits the dashed border from #main p
01:36:13 <heatsink> And there are confusing extra dashes in the document
01:37:24 <heatsink> This is annoying -- when you turn that off, the dashed border on the left side of the first line disappears
01:37:45 <Toreun> I'll do border-top and border-bottom none
01:42:58 <heatsink> Also, li display:inline seems to be messing things up, although when it's not inline it inserts newlines between the list elements
01:44:07 <Toreun> how's that look... it might be more compatible, but I'm not sure I like the floating left
01:44:32 <Toreun> actually... let me try something
01:45:00 <heatsink> I still see the first-line boxes, also
01:45:24 <Toreun> ok... that didn't work
01:45:52 <Toreun> they should be left aligned rather than center now
01:47:27 <Toreun> the first line boxes? where's the border??
01:48:03 <heatsink> In style1.css, I don't see any border-top: or border-bottom:
01:48:10 <heatsink> Maybe something is caching the webpage
01:48:27 <Toreun> hmm... try shift-refresh, I think
01:48:35 <Toreun> I'm pretty sure that does a hard refresh
01:48:57 <Toreun> how's the left align look?
01:49:01 <Toreun> rather than it being in the middle?
01:49:19 <heatsink> It definitely would look nicer if you could put that in the middle
01:49:32 <Toreun> but without using display: inline I'm not sure I can
01:49:38 <Toreun> and you said that's giving you problems
01:50:24 <heatsink> I know <center> is deprecated, but it seems to be the only portable way to accomplish some things
01:51:05 <Toreun> the problem with that is the multiple stylesheets...
01:51:13 <Toreun> which is my whole philosophy of webdesign
01:51:42 <Toreun> in theory it should look fine, because Mozilla seems to always display things correctly
01:51:56 <Toreun> but only... what, 10% of the population uses it?
02:01:07 <Toreun> I can't seem to figure out how to center it...
02:02:15 <Toreun> so I'm gonna leave it as display: inline and make a *much* less intensive stylesheet
02:03:04 <heatsink> As a programmer, I have to say that CSS is too restrictive
02:03:17 <Toreun> yes, I've noticed that too
02:03:41 <heatsink> I want to be able to have successive lines of text spaced by successive prime-number distances
02:03:53 <Toreun> it's way too hard to center everything! you have to use roundabout methods that were originally unexpected
02:04:08 <Toreun> that would need a turing complete markup, wouldn't it?
02:04:45 <heatsink> I haven't been able to center a <div> in all of IE, Netscape, and Konqueror without using the <center> tag
02:05:21 <heatsink> There's something in the CSS specification about text-align: center only applying to inline elements
02:05:50 <Toreun> if only it wasn't so difficult to get something standard in webdesign... maybe there would be a turing complete design language
02:06:21 <heatsink> Imagine all the webpage-bombs though
02:07:15 <heatsink> 100.000 bottles of beer on the wall...
02:08:08 <Toreun> well... would there be a way to prevent dynamic text insertion?
02:09:16 <heatsink> That wouldn't be very turing-complete
02:09:37 <Toreun> well... not necessarily... dynamic images?
02:10:06 <heatsink> Actually I think Microsoft is trying to use .NET to add programmability to webpages, like Sun tried with Java
02:10:38 <Toreun> that's... not very good
02:15:28 <Toreun> .NET is getting awfully bloated, IMO
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