00:31:33 -!- wooby has joined. 00:58:31 -!- wooby has quit ("[BX] Were you born a fat, slimy, scumbag, puke, piece of shit or did you have to work on it?"). 02:21:04 -!- terranwannabe has joined. 02:21:24 -!- terranwannabe has quit (Client Quit). 04:20:47 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:29:06 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 05:50:37 -!- KnX has joined. 05:55:57 -!- KnXxl has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:17:56 -!- puzzlet has quit ("rebooting"). 09:18:46 -!- CXI has joined. 09:19:35 hey 09:19:50 hi 09:21:59 funny story, actually - I edit wikipedia and I saw an entry on 2L, and went googling to see whether it actually existed or was just someone's project 09:22:25 what's the difference? 09:23:10 well, generally if it has any presence outside wikipedia it's a real topic 09:23:32 but that really depends on the people in question and what they consider a presence 09:23:53 yeah 09:24:25 I find it hard to decide sometimes... 2L looked kind of interesting so I figured it'd be better to leave it there 09:24:48 well, we've discussed about the presence of esoteric languages in there 09:24:54 (in wikipedia) 09:25:31 there are so many languages that can be described as "bf with huffman encoding, bf with a lookup table, bf with a lookup table and amusing names, bf with forking, bf with socket support, bf with a second buffer" 09:26:10 we're all for maintaining them but mainly because that's a way that they don't get lost in time; we agree that that's not the correct place 09:26:23 yeah, it's a tough choice 09:26:56 the author of the 2L language is GregorR, but I think he's asleep right now 09:27:12 yeah, I actually joined here because I read about it 09:27:19 as for web presence: http://eso.codu.org/ 09:27:19 the log, I mean 09:27:23 oh, I see 09:28:52 http://www.befunge.org/fyb/ork/exa/fibonacci.ork <--- haha, I like that 09:29:05 yes, ORK is an amazing language 09:30:00 after properly examined, 2L does not contribute so much as ORK to the esoteric languages world 09:30:32 it's a 2D language and there are 2D languages; it's a BF variation and there are lots of BF variations 09:30:32 and funnily enough there's no wikipedia article on ork 09:30:49 I know, it's more recent and it's not finished 09:30:49 PATH/SNUSP etc 09:31:01 PATH/SNUSP? 09:31:12 the canonical 2d BFs 09:31:20 oh, yeah 09:32:00 furthermore, it attempts to be extremely minimalistic and there are more extremely minimalistic ones 09:32:12 didn't know SNUSP, btw 09:33:30 well, we're making some efforts towards finding a place where esolangs can be preserved 09:34:50 not sure if it's any help, but wikimedia has a project called wikicities 09:35:17 I think it's at the very least very good news :) 09:35:58 I'll visit wikicities to see if that fits our purpose 09:37:03 could you please give a link? I'm not familiarized with how wikimedia is structured 09:37:22 oops, google helped 09:37:24 sorry 09:38:10 sorry - was off eating pretzels 09:38:17 np 09:38:33 a dangerous activity 09:38:39 hehe 09:38:40 only for presidents 09:40:50 could you give a very quick primer about the policies of wikicities, before I read everything thoroughly? is the content to be FDL-licensed? 09:41:29 yeah 09:41:52 basically it just says "it needs to be free and open - free license, freely editable, run as a community project" 09:42:36 about everything related to esolangs fits that 09:42:38 sounds perfect 09:42:59 it would be so awesome to gather everything in one place 09:43:40 hm, in a quick glance I see it's ad-supported 09:46:08 *nod* google ads 09:46:21 "Wikicities will never host pop-up adverts." - sounds reasonable 10:48:54 -!- CXI has changed nick to CXI-gonJinn. 10:51:09 -!- CXI-gonJinn has changed nick to CXI. 10:56:12 (also means you can copy/paste all wikipedia's information on esolangs) 10:58:37 what about files? is it possible to host files? 10:58:51 yeah 11:04:55 "Wikis must have a large potential audience, and be likely to attract enough editors to maintain the wiki over a long period of time. Personal wikis, wikis for small groups, or individual schools are not generally permitted." 11:05:34 all that's trying to do is discourage wikis for small clubs 11:05:43 I'm not sure we'll gather enough editors... the esolang community is not very wide 11:06:23 I'm sure when they see it they'll say "fantastic! somewhere for all the esolang stuff on wikipedia to go!" 11:07:50 yeah, but maintaining it is another issue 11:08:39 *shrug* well they'll either say yes or no - my guess is yes 12:15:08 -!- kipple has joined. 12:20:48 hmm. this wikicity concept looks promising 13:41:55 it's strange, actually, it's never really had any exposure 13:43:03 I suppose they're assuming it will just gain popularity through word of mouth 13:43:26 possibly. Who's behind it? is it associated with wikipedia? 13:43:33 yeah 13:43:38 basicaly it's just a wikimedia project 13:44:06 (except because wikimedia is non-profit and this is an ad-supported service they rolled out another essentially identical company for it) 13:45:17 the question is: what happens if it doesn't pay off? does it get closed down... 13:46:14 well, depends what you mean by "pay off", considering it's probably a thousandth the size of english wikipedia, keeping it running is trivial 13:46:46 yeah. and if it grows, it will pay off, hopefullly... 13:46:52 *nod* exactly 13:47:05 mainly I don't even really think paying off is what it's about 13:47:11 one of the big issues in wikipedia is scope 13:47:52 there are sort-of factions, one extreme is that wikipedia isn't a paper encyclopedia, and consequently we may as well try to gather *all* information 13:48:41 and the other extreme says that wikipedia shouldn't accept articles from any topics that aren't considered 'encyclopedic' 13:48:48 s/from/on/, sorry 13:49:02 so, like, no articles on schools, or towns 13:49:32 in reality most people lie somewhere in between, but it's a tough call because most of us hate throwing away information if it looks like it might be useful 13:49:47 yeah. 13:50:26 there have been some problems with people deleting esoteric programming articles already 13:52:03 well, 'problem' depends on your perspective 13:52:11 true 13:52:18 I actually think a lot of the esolangs don't belong there 13:52:46 I think I mentioned somewhere above that there are about 10 of them that are just "BF + neat feature" or "BF - neat feature" and don't actually exist at all except for their wikipedia entry 13:52:48 I partially agree 13:53:38 but that's the encyclopedia me talking 13:53:59 the "all information is sacred" me wants to put all those useless languages somewhere just in case someone is interested someday 13:54:12 someone is today 13:54:14 but not many 13:56:42 I'm all for starting a wikicity. 13:58:03 however, then we could get the problem that some people use the wikipedia, and some use the city 13:58:37 I'm actually for giving the alternatives in the list and see what's the general opinion 13:59:00 you mean the mailing list? 13:59:03 well, in reality anything written in the wikipedia can just be copy/pasted over 13:59:05 and vice versa 13:59:17 yeah, but that takes a lot of work 13:59:21 I'm not concerned about the wikipedia vs city; once the city is up, the languages don't need to be in the wikipedia 13:59:39 the most important ones should, IMHO 13:59:47 but you're right, it'd be tough drawing a line and saying "if your language is this popular put it in wikipedia, otherwise the city" 14:00:14 I'd say if the language is yours, then put it in the city 14:00:31 actually, yeah, that sounds like a good rule 14:00:32 if it is BF, INTERCAL or BeFunge then it can stay 14:00:34 there are a few that are universally accepted, like brainfuck and intercal 14:00:37 heh 14:00:56 maybe whitespace 14:01:02 yeah, BeFunge too 14:01:19 hm, whitespace is more like a humorous language 14:01:32 Unlambda suits there better 14:01:34 yes, but it is one of the more known 14:01:40 whitespace is pretty well known 14:01:48 because of the slashdot thing 14:01:57 yeah 14:02:02 a lot of the articles on popular languages aren't really under contention 14:02:11 it's just things like 2L that are worrying 14:02:20 when someone posts their new idea for a language on wikipedia 14:03:03 I've done that..... 14:03:16 and I agree, it's not the best solution 14:06:24 but the way it is now, I think it is the right way to do it. It's not like 2L is less interesting than most of the other esolangs in wikipedia 14:06:41 well, the problem is that it's less notable 14:06:58 I disagree 14:07:07 wikipedia isn't really the place to put new ideas, it's a repository for things that already exist 14:07:29 (which is to say, that's the viewpoint of most of the other editors, and that's why a new esolang article is likely to be deleted) 14:07:39 so, how long does it have to have existed before it can be put there? 14:08:16 it's not really a time thing - notability's a pretty ephemeral concept 14:08:50 well, to me it's a question of whether people which see the language/article somewhere else are able to find a reference in the wikipedia 14:09:24 a general guideline is that people shouldn't write articles about their own projects 14:10:39 I didn't know about the popularity of Whitespace; before I knew, I thought that it wasn't worth the inclusion 14:10:52 but if many people expect to find it, that's a change 14:11:17 that's my point of view, of course 14:12:27 Whitespace became quite known last year, so it's kind of a piece of internet history 14:13:12 well, that's what makes the difference somehow 14:13:56 The main esolang article lists the following as "notable": Befunge, Brainfuck, False, INTERCAL, Malbolge, Shakespeare, Unlambda and Whitespace 14:14:21 not sure about false and shakespeare, but the rest I agree with 14:15:27 I agree with you; I don't know about False and Shakespeare either 14:15:50 I'd perhaps include Thue because of its innovative paradigm but that's probably me 14:16:02 I've heard of both but can't actually remember what False does 14:17:27 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_programming_language 14:17:43 probably the most notable thing about it is that it inspired some others (it's from 1993) 14:19:07 Var'aq is probably also worth keeping in the pedia 14:20:54 yes, probably 14:21:19 off to lunch, bbl 14:21:19 though it doesn't really fit in with the rest... 17:50:34 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:50:48 -!- comet_11 has joined. 18:51:02 Hmm 18:51:09 Apparently I missed a very interesting conversation. 18:51:57 hi GregorR 18:52:27 So. 18:52:34 *cough* 20:25:55 -!- calamari has joined. 21:32:16 -!- Keymaker has joined. 21:32:52 hhm 21:33:07 Is that a new esoteric programming language? 21:33:13 no 21:33:18 wait, i was just about to write :) 21:33:18 :P 21:33:56 hi Keymaker 21:34:03 languages that definitely should stay in wikipedia, are in my opinion the following: brainfuck, befunge, thue, malbolge, unlambda 21:34:05 hi 21:34:15 but i prefer it they all stay there 21:34:24 oh, and naturally kipple as well :) 21:35:50 I agree with all you mention (I miss Intercal) 21:36:15 What program should I OBLISK-ize for the proletization of OBLISK today :P 21:39:15 aaaargh 21:39:42 some global notice tells that there's going to be a major downtime in about 11 hours 21:39:50 yep 21:40:16 a previous wallop told that it's going to be about 15 mins long 21:40:16 Mmhmm 21:40:54 * Keymaker goes to break in the nearest store, takes all the food that can carry, goes to bomb shelter, puts on the gas mask. 21:41:18 * GregorR cries himself to sleep. 21:41:23 :D 21:42:14 i have a feeling that most of people won't even notice the major downtime.. ;) 21:42:46 I'll be committing ritualistic suicide. 21:42:53 :) 21:42:58 Then reviving myself by magic. 21:43:08 i see 21:43:23 hehe 21:44:04 test: רררר 21:44:10 what is this 'ר' character? 21:44:22 like an o with a / 21:44:28 Zero-with-a-line-through-it-like-I-draw-it? 21:44:34 yes.. 21:44:42 but what it is? 21:44:58 Not quite Phi... 21:45:17 isn't it a norwegian character? 21:45:25 hmm 21:45:27 looks so 21:45:29 iirc 21:45:38 kippleee? 21:45:44 :) 21:45:51 it was from false manual 21:46:29 for once a detailed esoteric language manual.. 21:46:37 (still too lazy to try it) 21:48:48 Mayhaps their should be an ORK page on Wikipedia. 21:48:51 But I'm not writing it :P 21:48:58 :) 21:49:13 i don't understand it so i can't do it :p 21:49:19 XD 21:52:57 hum, the false doc is a txt file, the encoding might be CP-437 instead of ISO-8859 21:54:03 oh, being for Amiga I think it's ISO 22:05:54 hm 22:06:14 i'm trying to invent some esolang. again. 22:10:26 pgimeno: I'm more than happy to permanently host http://esowiki.kidsquid.com/ 22:11:37 kidsquid.com is my domain, so even if I change shell providers (unlikely), the name can be permanent. If you'd like a different name than esowiki, I can easily change it 22:12:43 was there a different reason that you were looking into wikicities? 22:33:32 calamari, I'm going to make a list of the options in the list with the pros and cons 22:35:30 yours is one, Wikicities is another and http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page is another 22:36:03 (the latter was apparently mentioned in the list before I joined it) 22:36:55 and I'd also include for consideration a non-wiki web (a wiki needs a maintainer which at the very least can deal with vandalism) 22:37:33 are you subscribed to the mailing list? 22:37:46 I'm subscribed to lang and misc 22:37:54 and friends-of-bf 22:38:24 lang is the one I'm subscribed to 22:38:48 pgimeno: wiki vandalism is easy to control because any change can be reverted 22:39:02 I need to use the phone.. bbl 22:39:18 and I need to have dinner 22:39:20 later 22:39:23 bye 22:39:35 and i need to go to sleep, i'm tired already 22:39:55 bbll (be back lot later) 22:40:06 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 22:45:21 -!- calamari_ has joined. 22:46:41 re's 22:47:26 even better than my site would be esoteric.sange.fi, if he's willing 22:47:48 he's already been running the bf repository for years 22:57:18 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:04:35 -!- calamari_ has changed nick to calamari.