03:01:06 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:09:38 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:10:01 So. 03:10:08 Gregor is bored. 04:53:29 -!- Keymaker has joined. 04:54:02 wooooaaaah 04:54:24 really nice andreou! 04:54:36 i gotta try that language soon 04:54:40 as soon as i have time 04:54:48 really neat stuff 04:58:48 must go. 04:58:51 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 07:04:08 -!- andreou has joined. 07:37:57 -!- andreou has quit ("~"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 10:32:46 -!- andreou has joined. 10:35:11 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:37:02 -!- andreou has quit (Client Quit). 11:47:47 -!- CXI has joined. 12:09:05 -!- kipple has joined. 16:07:40 -!- arke has joined. 16:13:22 -!- arke has quit ("CGI:IRC (EOF)"). 16:16:51 -!- puzzlet has joined. 17:05:14 -!- andreou has joined. 17:40:45 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 18:03:37 -!- andreou has quit ("i be novel."). 18:16:32 -!- puzzlet has quit. 18:27:39 -!- puzzlet has joined. 18:47:30 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:51:34 -!- puzzlet has quit. 20:32:28 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 20:33:39 Wooh 20:33:43 CFDG 20:33:44 Coolio 20:33:55 Not turing complete I assume, since it's not exactly ... well ... that. 20:35:21 Wow 20:35:24 That's incredibly cool 20:36:20 CFDG? 20:36:30 how much would it take to make it turing complete, I wonder... :) 20:36:40 see topic 20:36:41 oh, the topic 20:36:42 yeah 20:36:45 sorry :) 20:36:57 Well, it would have to have a concept of numbers :p 20:37:02 Maybe some sort of colision ... 20:37:22 hm 20:37:34 that's what a fractal language could look like 20:39:00 GregorR-L: I'm writing the message for the ML about the servers; could you please repeat what are your changes to Wiki!? 20:39:59 I got confused by what did you change and what was already supported 20:40:15 so, what are the alternatives you have so far? 20:40:16 I just secured the logins a bit more and added an uploads dialog. 20:40:32 *a bit more secure 20:40:42 ok, thanks 20:41:27 But since even I've started posting stuff to the MoinMoin wiki, it's pretty irrelevent :P 20:41:59 hm, so do I delete that part from consideration? 20:42:05 Might as well 20:42:44 which means...? 20:42:53 Yes, delete. 20:43:02 are you sure? 20:43:14 maybe the final decision involves a different approach 20:43:19 Unless anybody can see any advantages to it over MoinMoin. 20:43:27 does the MoinMoin wiki support file uploads? (like binaries, archives and pdfs) 20:43:30 kipple: the alternatives are static content and wiki; within wiki, the three ones already running, namely Wikicities, calamari's and the voxelwhatever 20:43:42 apparently it does 20:43:59 If it doesn't, there's a big point for "Wiki!" :P 20:44:17 OH, that's right! 20:44:18 calamari's is MoinMoin; the voxelXXXX seems to be phpwiki 20:44:24 MoinMoin is python, and many servers don't support Python. 20:44:39 yeah, that's the big con against MoinMoin 20:44:39 So it would be more difficult to get true mirrors. 20:44:50 WikiMedia is my personal preference 20:44:55 It's PHP, yes? 20:45:03 Wikicities is not a Wikimedia project 20:45:03 php+mysql 20:45:18 Flat files are nicer for cross-site distribution. 20:45:36 OK, toss "Wiki!" back in X-D 20:45:36 it's easy to distribute an sql-dump 20:46:03 It's the same issue as with MoinMoin though - the more basic it is the more mirrors are likely. 20:46:13 yes 20:46:27 from http://www.wikicities.com/wiki/What_Wikicities_is_not : "[Wikicities is not] a Wikimedia project" 20:46:42 Humm 20:46:52 Does it use the Wikimedia engine? 20:46:53 yeah, I didn't want to take it out 20:46:58 I think so, not sure 20:47:14 I meant: I prefer MediaWiki (not to be confused with WikiMedia) :) 20:47:23 in any case it looks a LOT like Wikipedia 20:47:35 Wikipedia and Wikicities both use MediaWiki 20:47:46 oh, you mean the software 20:47:49 yes 20:48:42 I have yet to see a wiki that looks as good as MediaWiki 20:48:48 I'm not very confident about a MySQL database either 20:48:59 yeah, the look is pretty good 20:49:06 (Wiki! is templatable through a template.html file, so it can look exactly like MediaWiki if you want) 20:49:15 ok 20:49:39 it's just the ones I've seen so far has looked very good 20:49:47 maybe voxelperfect's is a MediaWiki? 20:49:49 The big draw-back of Wiki! for the record is that it uses HTML, rather than a convenient Wikiscript. 20:49:50 has not, I mean! 20:50:11 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ (for reference) 20:50:13 hmmm. not good 20:50:29 oops, doesn't it use custom markup? 20:50:39 No, 'tis HTML. 20:50:46 Which I think is nice, but that is clearly just me. 20:51:04 does user's text go straight to the page? 20:51:18 Yup - though of course wiki links use [blah] 20:51:32 That's the only non-HTML-ism it has. 20:51:33 voxelperfect seems to be mediawiki 20:51:36 OH, plus it does
s 20:51:39 For you 20:52:06 oh, then it's not straight HTML, it looks similar to phpBB or even MediaWiki 20:52:31 Well, MediaWiki has convenient wikiisms, no? 20:52:33 I bet it won't allow certain tags and will impose restrictions on others 20:52:59 it has its own markup if that's what you ask 20:53:09 Yeah, that's what I meant :P 20:53:33 it may be more restricted but anyway I think it's OK 20:54:06 I personally prefer pure HTML to Wiki syntaxes, but like I said, I'm sure that's just me. 20:54:26 well, I think that asking for HTML tags for special contents is not asking too much in a community of people used to code in weird languages 20:54:54 LOL 20:54:55 Good point. 20:55:01 I didn't think about that X-D 20:55:15 agreed. but I think you'll get a more unified look if you don't use HTML 20:55:32 but maybe that's not important 20:55:46 actually, the style sheet should deal with things that structure the page like

,
 etc.
20:56:07  a good thing with HTML is that one can take a web page and paste it directly into the wiki
20:56:11  so that's no concern
20:56:47  there is a difference with what _should_ happen, and what will happen... 
20:56:48  I actually doubt it allows straight HTML; it will probably be a restricted HTML like in blogspot or phpBB
20:57:01  probably true
20:57:05  (sorry if my fingers are a bit lagged)
20:57:14  not a big issue IMHO
20:57:49  Oh, "Wiki!"
20:57:53  No, straight HTML.
20:58:12  When I said "Simple," I meant "simple" ;)
20:58:19  oh
20:59:13  well, then anonymous posting shouldn't be allowed
20:59:19  indeed
20:59:26  lol
20:59:52  That's the only problem with it, so I'm putting it out there.
21:00:26  hm, maybe I can work in a parser or something... (I'm quite busy with the rest of my projects though)
21:01:11  could you please elaborate on the security-related changes?
21:01:23  security is a concern to me as well
21:01:56  It used to use a cookie that just had your username, so anybody who could set the cookie could get a user account.
21:02:00  Sort of stupid, really :P
21:02:14  Now it uses the username and a hashed password, and the password is double-hashed on the far end.
21:02:24  yuck, actually phpBB suffered that problem as well
21:02:34  neat
21:02:38  MD5?
21:02:45  (just curious)
21:03:08  Yeah
21:04:09  Still not as secure as it could be.
21:04:17  And you just got me thinking about how I could secure it more :P
21:04:18 -!- calamari has joined.
21:04:28  cool! hi calamari
21:04:40  hi pgimeno
21:05:06  how's the wiki planning?
21:05:18  I'm preparing the message to the ML
21:05:40  we're discussing about including Wiki! in the list
21:05:50  in the list of wiki possibilities, that is
21:05:56  if in doubt, include it
21:05:58  I hate its name so much I want to fork it and make my own X-D
21:06:03  we agree it should be
21:06:11  hehe
21:06:32  I can call it GWiki and imply that it's GNU because of my first name ...
21:06:42  I could call it KWiki and imply that it's for KDE because of my middle name ...
21:06:53  how about Giki
21:06:57  X-D
21:06:59  Geeki
21:07:01  That's brilliant 8-D
21:07:05  hehe
21:07:10  kipple gets genius points.
21:07:16  indeed
21:07:34  I'm submitting this baby to Sourceforge >:)
21:07:45  Hmm.
21:07:50  That would be project #5 I think ...
21:07:55  MoinMoin's main problem is Python
21:08:19  Many wikis are tied to a database, that's their problem.
21:08:20  yes. otherwise it looks fine
21:08:57  calamari: you said MoinMoin supports files, right?
21:09:05  (file uploads)
21:09:21  er, yeah
21:10:18  To submit, or not to submit, that is the question.  For is it nobler to have 5 under-supported projects or to ignore this desire and leave Giki behind?
21:10:48  has anybody seen a spec of CDFG?
21:11:35  Hmm, nope.
21:12:08  GregorR-L: what about leaving it apart by now and take it again after you're done with a few projects?
21:12:56  Open Source Software projects never qualify as "done" really :P
21:13:25  :D
21:13:35  I already abandoned one - PHPIM
21:13:46  PHPIM - RIP - It was curious, but totally worthless.
21:14:05  IM = instant messaging?
21:14:09  Yeah
21:14:21  %)
21:14:33  :P
21:14:50  the most esoteric thing I've done in PHP so far is an astrologic calculator
21:15:01  I think that's more esoteric than PHPIM ;)
21:15:34  yeah, esoteric is a word that fits it pretty well :)
21:16:08  Hmm, it's still up X-D
21:16:42  (I'm not a believer in astrology, it was just to prove an astrologer that astrology doesn't work as he expected)
21:16:51  Heheh
21:16:54  I was hoping so ;)
21:17:56  where's PHPIM?
21:18:05  http://phpim.sourceforge.net/
21:18:24  There's a "Check out PHPIM first-hand" link that still works there :P
21:19:07  pgimeno: I don't remember talking about file uploads.. must've been someone else
21:19:26  oh, sorry
21:19:39  I thought we decided against MoinMoin because it was python
21:19:50  Well, no better one has really cropped up ;)
21:20:01  if Moin! could be made to not look so dumb, I'd go for that
21:20:11  You mean "Wiki!" 
21:20:18  err yeah.. hehe
21:20:24  And it just has a template.html, so it's totally templatable.
21:20:30  It looks however you want it to.
21:20:32  the boxes around links is just silly hehe
21:20:39  That's just that one example ;)
21:20:45  try to make it look like wikipedia or moinmoin
21:20:58  they both have nice interfaces
21:21:24  Indeed.
21:23:01  calamari: so does moinmoin allow binary file uploading?
21:23:01  Hmm, Wikipedia foils Mozilla's save-page feature!
21:23:21  pgimeno: no idea.. let me see :)
21:23:39  thanks
21:28:30  http://gregorr.homelinux.org/wiki/ < starting to look MediaWiki-ish
21:29:35  it's good for a start
21:30:18  Well, I certainly am not saying that it's done ;)
21:30:25  I'm just showing you that it is indeed templatable.
21:30:51  yeah, that's what I mean (please be patient with me, remember that English is not my first language)
21:31:09  pgimeno: MoinMoin can do binary file uploading, but you must log in first
21:31:33  no problem with that; I think that anonymous posts should be disallowed
21:31:40  maybe
21:31:53  Agreed.
21:31:58  Uploading without login = bad.
21:32:15  it's easier to get people to add content if they don't have to register. but for uploading it should be required!
21:32:35  Yeah.
21:32:53 * GregorR-L wonders why the ! was necessary after that sentence ;)
21:33:32  because it is important!! ;)
21:33:42  8-D
21:34:04  english is not my first language either....
21:34:11  I'd be happy if we are enough registered editors as to maintain it; interested authors can see registration as a benefit in case they don't have a homepage
21:34:56  I'm worried about spammers and vandals
21:35:44  it should work as autonomously as possible without anyone's interaction
21:35:56  I don't know how much of a problem that is. On wikipedia it happens, but this wiki will be pretty obscure
21:36:14  here's how to do an upload.. kinda weird.. you put attachment:filename in the page, and then save the page, you'll then have a link to link which allows you to upload the file
21:36:17  I think that most wikis suffer from spam
21:36:26  ok
21:36:43  calamari: a link to link?
21:36:44  then we should probably not allow anonymous editing
21:37:12  pgimeno: a link.. dunno where "to a link" came from
21:37:14  Hmm, my Wiki! upload script forces the username before file name so you can't fake somebody elses files.
21:37:46  calamari: it's enough by now to know that it's supported, thanks
21:37:48  Not sure why I started that sentence with "Hmm, "
21:41:47 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
21:46:42 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
21:46:54  On further thought, there was no need for me to log out before walking downstairs.
21:48:21  OK, I am sooooo forking.
21:48:31  heh
21:49:16  Wiki! is so nice, but falls just short of its potential.  Only a few minor changes are needed for it to be a really excellent SIMPLE Wiki.
21:50:23  that's cool
21:50:39  off-topic, GregorR-L: how many domains do you use?
21:51:55  www.codu.org is my low-powered home page, gregorr.homelinux.org is my home computer that I'm not even allowed to host on, www.imdirect.net is DirectNet's home page and www.reclaimidentity.com is a school project.
21:52:12  Plus four *.sf.net subdomains.
21:52:13  and t35.com?
21:52:36  Oh, codu.t35.com was my old home page, but the host got all advertizy so I decided to get a for-pay one.
21:52:53  oh, I see
21:53:33  you're not allowed to host on your home computer? eek
21:54:12  Lame ISP :P
21:54:35  what kind of connection is that?
21:54:38  Cable
21:54:39  DSL?
21:54:42  ah
21:55:14  what speed? (just curious)
21:55:42  Hmm X-D
21:55:48  Something I should know off the top of my head ...
21:55:53  But I'm so rarely home anymore :P
21:56:02  :)
21:56:03  nm
22:08:01 -!- andreou has joined.
22:08:15  oh, the artist :)
22:08:19  hi andreou
22:08:33  hola
22:08:35  which artist?
22:09:31  the artist behind cfdg is you, right?
22:11:33  no, i am a mere medium.
22:11:38  oh
22:11:54  in that case thanks for the link, it looks very pretty :)
22:13:13  bbl
22:13:16 -!- calamari has left (?).
22:13:56  btw, is there someone here who is NOT in the 'lang' ML?
22:14:06  me
22:14:29  it's for discussing the esolang preservation project
22:15:10  the question is related to which of the three lists should the message be sent, as I'm just in 'lang'
22:15:32  three lists?
22:15:43  I'm in lang and FoBF
22:15:58  maybe I'm wrong and they are just two
22:16:21  I somehow understood that there were three
22:18:28  i thought you meant the lang 'ML', as in OcaML
22:18:33  i used to be
22:18:42  some of my addresses might still be
22:18:42  oh, sorry, I meant ML as in mailing list
22:19:34  you're welcome to participate if any of these addresses is :)
22:21:17  WOW! I haven't seen this before: http://www.nada.kth.se/~matslina/awib/
22:21:31  extremely cool
22:23:45  pgimeno what's the url for the list manager?
22:24:10  I don't know right now
22:24:47  very nice, kipple!
22:25:09  andreou: you mean for the lang list?
22:25:26  I think he does
22:25:34  yes
22:25:43  subscribe lang to listar@esoteric.sange.fi
22:26:16  lang, sci and misc, right?
22:26:54  don't know about sci and misc...
22:27:17  misc was the other one, yeah
22:27:40  but lang seems more appropriate
22:28:15  I didn't know about sci either; the third one I meant was Friends of Brainfuck
22:29:57  ah at ccc?
22:29:59  i remember that
22:32:10  i'm off
22:32:15 -!- andreou has quit ("~").
22:32:43  GregorR-L: around?
22:40:37  Hi
22:40:37  Am now
22:41:13  may I make changes to the wiki to get a feeling of how it works?
22:41:29  Yeah, that's a throw-away wiki.
22:41:44  do I need to be registered?
22:42:12  I don't think so, lemme check the config.
22:42:25  Nope.
22:42:51  [wiki links go in square brackets]
22:43:06  there we go
22:44:36  what's the "track revision" checkbox? I thought that all revisions would be tracked
22:46:11  It just changes whether the revision is displayed on the page.
22:46:11  They're all stored internally.
22:46:22  ah ok
22:47:30 * GregorR-L is still working on the unnecessarily-secure password setup.
22:50:41  it seems to track only the last three changes
22:53:12  hehe, it messes up the JS code
22:53:47  The page only shows the last three changes.
22:54:00  That's just a display thing, it has nothing to do with its actual history.
22:54:08  ok
22:58:18  there's a potential problem with the markup, namely the conversion of < to < and > to > which some authors may forget (even in Micro$oft's pages I've seen code forgetting them)
22:58:31  plus the usage of [] for code
22:58:56  the latter can be avoided in the PHP code by skipping 
 sections
22:59:54  the former will probably happen also in the other wikis
23:02:49  Not in wikis that disallow HTML.
23:02:58  The latter is simple to skip, no prob.
23:03:16  So long as I'm going in full-hog anyway :P
23:03:40  hehe
23:04:07  MediaWiki allows HTML; probably MoinMoin does as well
23:05:01  no big deal; just BF programmers will have to be careful when moving the data pointer around
23:07:59  Yay 8-D
23:08:05  New security measures are working.
23:08:16  There is now a session key.
23:08:20  cool!
23:08:31  :)
23:08:35  does it time out or something?
23:08:55  No, but I could make it do so when I think about it ...
23:09:01  Just stick a timestamp in there.
23:09:07  I had it disappear when you logged out.
23:09:25  a server-side timestamp, I suppose
23:09:30  Yeah, of course.
23:09:38  I always forget to log out :P
23:09:47  The local cookie times out, which forces a new key upon new login.
23:09:58  oh, by the way, I think this will be a simple find-and-replace change: could you please make 
add a \n at the end? 23:11:23 Oh, in display? 23:11:24 Sure. 23:12:05 the HTML code sticks everything in a single line, making browsing the source a bit awkward 23:12:31 OH, that's how it screws up javascript! 23:12:38 * GregorR-L 's eyes are opened. 23:18:23 well, the JS code suffers from
invasion 23:19:21 eek! 23:19:36 on edit it converted the < to < 23:20:09 Ooh, seriously? That's bizarre ... I wonder why it did that ...... 23:20:22 Hmmmmm, maybe something about textareas? 23:20:41 no idea but yes I'm serious 23:22:59 grr, there's a caveat with
\n: the
 sections are also broken by 
so if instead of
there's
\n then two line breaks will be inserted 23:24:02 the
 sections are also broken...  -->  within the 
 sections lines are also broken...
23:25:19  Lesse lesse lesse ...
23:32:29  There we go :)
23:32:35  Now it handles 
s beautifully :)
23:32:40  Let's get scripts working ...
23:32:49  neat
23:34:25  Now if only I could remember basic javascript ...
23:34:52  Document.out.println or something?
23:35:21  document.write is what you look for?
23:35:39  Ah, yes.
23:35:47  Hey, looksi there!
23:35:49  8-D
23:35:50  + "\n" if it has to end a line
23:35:58  Scripts work.
23:36:39  hum, maybe it's cached somewhere in between
23:36:51  do you mean it no longer inserts 
? 23:39:30 the message to the list will not be ready tonight, sorry :( 23:39:53 no problem. it's not that urgent... 23:43:37 my main concern is the Wikipedia contents, maybe CXI can clarify something about when an action would be carried out 23:43:51 what do you mean? 23:44:15 is it about to be deleted? 23:46:16 I'm not sure 23:47:09 I suppose that it will deleted at some point except for the most relevant languages, but I don't know how close is that point 23:47:55 apparently CXI joined here because of a need of dealing with that 23:52:56 I recall having seen somewhere in Wikipedia a proposal for deletion of... was it 74 entries? 23:53:51 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 23:55:01 but wasn't that a long time ago, and voted down? 23:55:09 or has it happened again? 23:56:51 no idea of the timing 23:57:14 nor the voting 23:57:51 I'm not very up-to-date, sorry :) 23:59:42 -!- GregorR-L has joined.