00:08:40 <GregorR-L> YES! I win! I can't directly access the source, but I can access the DOM, which is good enough for what I need :)
00:20:43 <pgimeno> http://www.rgagnon.com/jsdetails/js-0034.html
00:22:09 <pgimeno> my "brfd" debugger does not optimize at all :(
00:22:21 <pgimeno> I don't know what happened
00:22:47 <kipple_> well it beats the crap out of mine anyway :)
00:23:31 <pgimeno> just because of having no java, I suppose
00:23:48 <kipple_> I compiled it to binary with gcj
00:24:05 <pgimeno> I'm sure I wrote an optimizer, and spent some time debugging it
00:24:57 <pgimeno> well, probably because Java programs are intrinsicly slower
00:25:11 <kipple_> I don't think that is true
00:25:23 <kipple_> at least not for a factor of nearly 4!
00:26:25 <kipple_> it's probably superior coding :)
00:26:26 <pgimeno> my interpreter deals with chars, but Java AFAIK does not have a char type, everything is strings, right?
00:26:37 <GregorR-L> INTERWIKI CONTENT! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOH!
00:29:28 <pgimeno> oh it does? hm... I have confused it with JS then
00:30:54 <pgimeno> OTOH I've found the optimizing RUN module; I'm starting to remember that I decided to change it to avoid confusing people
00:32:25 <pgimeno> it's frustrating and embarrassing to find out that you've been unconsciously lying to people
00:38:01 <pgimeno> (confusing people because it was supposed to show how the interpreter algorithm described in my article worked)
00:40:37 <kipple_> hmm. your code looks pretty close to mine. maybe gcj is not as good at optimizing as the C compiler
00:42:37 <pgimeno> I'm putting brfd under svn control before making any further changes
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00:54:41 <kipple_> hmm. Sun's java seems to be about twice as fast as compiled gcj....
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01:40:05 <pgimeno> did my message get trhough to the list? I got a bounce and I'm not sure it's OK
01:40:14 <That_Guy> I'm looking for any sites for the beatnik language other than the authors site.
01:40:37 <pgimeno> "Evolution of the proposal"
01:40:49 <GregorR-L> That_Guy: Sorry, haven't heard of any.
01:40:51 <kipple_> ah. that list. sorry, I'm a bit slow
01:42:36 <GregorR-L> If you make one, feel free to tell us :)
01:43:39 <That_Guy> I just might... if i can find some time
01:44:29 * GregorR-L gives That_Guy a bucket of time :P
01:45:31 <That_Guy> thanks i'll need it, i'm moving soon. I never thought I had this much stuff.
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01:59:18 <pgimeno> kipple_: before I leave... try this run.c: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/run.c
01:59:47 <pgimeno> it made a difference for me at least
02:01:35 <kipple_> I'll test it later. can't right now
02:01:48 <kipple_> later meaning tomorrow....
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04:27:50 <GregorR-L> Which wiki software is on your page?
04:29:06 <malaprop> What I'd like to know is why there's a separate files dir instead of sticking it all in the wiki. :)
04:30:54 <graue> flat files are easier to browse and back up, and everything in the wiki is public domain, while stuff in the files directory may have other or ambiguous copyright
04:37:57 <GregorR-L> PHPWiki doesn't seem to support plugins >_>
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04:39:51 <GregorR-L> I am deeply saddened by PHPWiki's lack of plugins.
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05:02:49 <GregorR-L> Any MoinMoin experts want to implement IWC (InterWiki Content) in it?
05:03:32 <calamari> I thought we were going with MediaWiki.. it makes sense I think
05:03:44 <GregorR-L> This is totally unrelated to esowiki ;)
05:03:51 <GregorR-L> Plus, I'm writing the plugin for MediaWiki (I speak PHP)
05:04:04 <GregorR-L> I'm writing plugins for PHP wikis to support a simple InterWiki Content "standard", but I don't speak Python.
05:04:08 <calamari> I've been playing around a bit with Java applets.. having fun with that
05:05:00 <calamari> making a simple shell wannabe thing, with fake filesystem and editor
05:10:12 <calamari> hmm.. how do I make a blinking cursor.. hadn't considered that :)
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05:36:09 <graue> you will become very famous if your standard catches on
05:36:47 <graue> maybe you can even charge people $33 to download a copy
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06:25:20 <graue> i think all software should be under this license:
06:25:21 <graue> Use of the works is permitted provided that
06:25:21 <graue> this instrument is retained with the works.
06:25:21 <graue> DISCLAIMER: THE WORKS ARE WITHOUT WARRANTY.
06:29:46 <GregorR-L> That's the shortest version of the MIT/X Consortium license I've ever seen ;)
06:31:22 <graue> it comes from http://svn.jwp.name/law/license/experimental/ideal
07:29:33 <GregorR-L> Is it just me, or has SourceForge been slow today?
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07:49:04 <GregorR-L> I'm making an InterWiki Content "standard"
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08:00:18 <calamari> GregorR-L: I forgot to ask what you meant by that
08:09:22 <GregorR-L> You can link to a page on another wiki, and it will display in your wiki, so the contents can be merged seamlessly. There's no obvious seam of templates.
08:13:53 <GregorR-L> For an example, compare http://giki.sourceforge.net and http://giki.sourceforge.net/iwclist/index.php?title=TheGikiWiki::Index
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09:32:07 <graue> hey GregorR, you should add the article about your 2L language to the esolang wiki
09:32:23 <graue> it is obviously original research, you know
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11:18:36 <calamari_> work in progress: http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/EsoShell/
11:21:19 <calamari_> so far it has extremely primitive command line parsing (spaces only, no quotes or escapes).. but it does load and run each program.. they have their own main method
11:26:54 <calamari_> pgimeno: thanks.. I'd like to contribute to the wiki demo effort :)
11:28:23 <calamari_> this should make it easier, since it presents a comfortable interface (stdin/stdout .. you can use println), single directory filesystem.. not implemented yet, but will allow basic file operations)
11:29:10 <calamari_> I'd like to automate the help command.. but haven't found a way to do so yet (Java gets uptight about security violations when I try to get a list of the class files)
11:29:43 <calamari_> of course the file operations will be memory only.. once you leave the page, it's all gone
11:32:01 <pgimeno> sorry for my dumbness but what does the "wiki demo effort" mean?
11:32:33 <pgimeno> and, is there something that one can try apart from "help" and "ls"?
11:33:00 <calamari_> I'm implementing "echo" right now.. one min and I'll upload it :)
11:33:25 <calamari_> there was interest expressed in being able to try out esoteric languages right from the wiki
11:34:09 <calamari_> this seems less cumbersome than the usual input/output boxes and run button :)
11:36:11 <calamari_> okay echo should be up.. haven't tested iut yet :)
11:37:31 <calamari_> yay it works :) .. don't even need to reload the applet!
11:37:56 <pgimeno> heh, I did (I didn't know it wasn't needed)
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13:47:52 <kipple> pgimeno: results with the optimizing run.c:
13:51:17 <kipple> that is about 5 times faster than without optimization
13:54:23 <kipple> calamari: there are ways to get around the security limitations regarding file listings from Java applets.
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14:33:06 <pgimeno> kipple: that's better huh? :)
14:37:32 <kipple> and Sun's java runtime was twice as fast as gcj on my java interpreter
14:39:31 <pgimeno> yeah, I read that... it seems that gcj is still too preliminary as to compete with Sun's java
14:39:41 <kipple> btw, I also got a Mail delivery failure when posting to lang
14:39:51 <kipple> but I think it went through
14:39:59 <pgimeno> I've just seen your message in there, btw
14:40:36 <pgimeno> Subversion copes with the issues you state
14:41:42 <pgimeno> you may at least know that when the repository is updated, the local copies synchronize by receiving only the changes
14:42:49 <kipple> are the files stored in a manner that lets them be accessed independently via HTTP?
14:43:47 <kipple> well, then it sounds like we're set :)
14:43:56 <pgimeno> see e.g. http://svn.collab.net/repos/svn/
14:44:37 <pgimeno> that's the svn Apache module in action, that seems to be what graue has in the server
14:45:18 <pgimeno> svn is strict wrt users; I think the maintainance is done by hand
14:46:58 <pgimeno> that's a potential problem: if graue and most or all of the initial editors lose interest, how are users going to be added?
14:47:12 <pgimeno> that's a very pessimistic point of view though
14:49:03 <pgimeno> I suppose that even if that happens there's always the option of switching to a different host
14:54:58 <kipple> hmm. yes. that's kind of the whole point of this project... :)
15:06:07 <malaprop> BTW, an svn repository can't be mirrored directly by clients; you need the svn admin to dump the repos.
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15:16:45 <pgimeno> malaprop: yeah, but keeping the whole history is not the goal, just the files. A working copy is good enough.
15:17:18 <malaprop> Then under the 'fewer moving parts' ideal, files in the wiki would be better.
15:18:00 <pgimeno> a dump similar to the mysql one could also be done anyway
15:18:12 <kipple> keeping the whole history would be nice though
15:18:14 <pgimeno> that's just two files to transfer
15:18:25 <pgimeno> instead of one plus a tree
15:18:38 <kipple> but a dump of the files could potentially be quite big
15:19:11 <kipple> and you could put the db-dumps in the file tree, and do it in one op
15:22:22 <pgimeno> well, actually yes, but I doubt it makes sense
15:23:10 <pgimeno> that would mean committing the dump into the repository each week
15:23:32 <malaprop> pgimeno: I think he was saying the svn dump should be copied into the wiki tree.
15:23:51 <kipple> hmm. not sure how to do it best
15:24:56 <kipple> wont the wiki have to have a files section anyway? At least to store images
15:25:29 <kipple> then that has to be backed up as well!
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15:25:47 <malaprop> That will be in the wiki tree, we've already planned for it.
15:27:35 <kipple> how about having a folder which contains the following: the current files from the svn, the files section of the wiki, and the current db-dump
15:27:54 <kipple> then you just sync that one folder, and get everything
15:28:28 <pgimeno> I think that a "svn up" is a very easy way to be in sync with the files section
15:28:40 <pgimeno> no need to download individual files et al
15:29:19 <kipple> but would require the user to have svn, right?
15:29:37 <pgimeno> only the people who are making backups
15:29:45 <kipple> yes, that is what I meant
15:30:09 <kipple> one more software requirement...
15:30:57 <pgimeno> I'm using svn regularly, it's pretty easy to use
15:31:11 <kipple> PS: I don't mean to sound overly negative here. I'm just thinking aloud...
15:32:24 <pgimeno> I mean, could it be used to upload files as well as to downoad them?
15:32:24 * kipple has never actually _used_ rsync....
15:32:40 <pgimeno> me neither... well, I've used rsync-backup but that's not the same
15:32:47 <malaprop> rsync command means 'make my local dir like that remote one'. Is one-way.
15:33:53 <pgimeno> ftp + rsync is the only simple alternative to svn I can figure out
15:34:57 <CXI> well, to me it seems obvious that either you want incremental updates, in which case you need other software, or you use full updates, in which case it can work with just about anything
15:35:10 <malaprop> I don't mean to be rude, but I think you guys are way overthinking the setup.
15:36:40 <pgimeno> you're probably right, malaprop... what do you suggest?
15:38:02 <malaprop> A MediaWiki installed somewhere doing daily SQL/image dumps. Let everyone who wants to grab the dumps for mirror/backup/making of birdcage liner. Done.
15:39:26 <pgimeno> I must be missing something... what about the files dir?
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15:39:51 <kipple> I think the files in MediaWiki goes the same place as the images
15:39:53 <malaprop> MediaWiki internally treats all files as images. Is a legacy of how it developed, but they're all in one place.
15:40:26 <kipple> but it has restrictions on what file type can be uploaded, right?
15:41:00 <malaprop> Yes, and trivial to modify or remove.
15:41:24 <kipple> ok. do you have to allow each type, or can you just allow everything?
15:41:31 <pgimeno> are the files in the database too?
15:41:49 <malaprop> No, keeping large binary blobs in dbs is generally a bad idea.
15:42:20 <pgimeno> so that's anyway a separate download
15:43:00 <malaprop> wget example.com/sqldump.today.sql example.com/filedump.today.tar.bz2
15:43:51 <kipple> that is indeed a simple solution
15:43:56 <pgimeno> how is that different to holding the files separately?
15:44:04 <pgimeno> there are the license issues
15:44:16 <malaprop> You automatically get all the MediaWiki interface niceties for dealing with files.
15:45:00 <malaprop> And the license issues are solved entirely by putting "This file is copyright by so-and-so" in the image/file caption. WikiPedia does this to pull in images under CreativeCommons licenses.
15:45:05 <kipple> wikipedia has files with different licences, so I don't think it is a problem,
15:45:37 <pgimeno> let's see if graue comments on this
15:46:46 <pgimeno> I'm not opposed to keeping the files in the wiki
15:47:28 <pgimeno> I'm just concerned about potential issues that may arise in future
15:47:50 <pgimeno> changing later is usually far more work than planning before
15:59:17 <kipple> that is true. But this approach doesn't require ANY particular software for taking a backup. Which I think is very nice
16:09:13 <pgimeno> that depends on the point of view actually
16:09:28 <pgimeno> you can download the subversion tree with wget via web, for example
16:10:50 <pgimeno> what makes it different is the upload interface
16:11:57 <pgimeno> in the case of ftp, everybody is already used to it, I think
16:15:21 <GregorR> graue: I added 2L to calamari's esowiki, so I guess now I add it to yet another :P
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17:06:27 <kipple> on file uploads: what's nice with the mediawiki approach, is that there is only one set of user accounts to administer. And they are part of the mysql-dump too
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21:25:34 <calamari> file system is ready.. can create file, but can't edit them yet (next step) http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/EsoShell/
21:27:05 <pgimeno> fortunately I opened it under a different profile
21:27:35 <pgimeno> at work (windows + mozilla) it worked
21:27:39 <calamari> wonder why it's not crashing here
21:28:10 <calamari> I have Java 1.5, but I'm pretty sure the latest I'm using is 1.4
21:28:20 <pgimeno> there can be many reasons... jre version... mozilla version...
21:29:41 <calamari> does this page crash? http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/uiswing/components/applet.html
21:30:21 <calamari> hmm, okay I feel better then :)
21:30:50 <calamari> maybe it's because we're using Swing
21:31:24 <calamari> what jre and mozilla are you running?
21:32:11 <pgimeno> mozilla 1.7.7-2; I don't remember where to look to see the java version
21:32:47 <kipple> calamari: nice shell :)
21:33:29 <kipple> so, what do you have planned for it?
21:34:33 <calamari> kipple: still need to implement file i/o. I'd like better parsing (escape sequences, quoted strings), simple i/o redirection with files, an editor
21:35:08 <calamari> the editor I'm wondering about. right now I jave a line editor planned, but maybe a full screen editor is better?
21:36:10 <calamari> one problem with applets is that there is no copy/paste because of the security system.. unless you run linux, middle mouse button ;)
21:37:05 <calamari> hmm, never mind.. paste seems to work. Maybe it's just copy that is disallowed
21:37:10 <kipple> didn't know that. how is that a security issue?
21:37:45 <kipple> umm. I am able to copy
21:37:58 <kipple> but only from the prompt
21:38:06 <lindi-> calamari: hmm, i don't seem to be able to type anything to that textarea with gcjappletviewer
21:39:11 <kipple> calamari: I think the problem is that you can't select properly because you move the cursor as soon you click any where else than the prompt
21:39:20 <calamari> lindi-: I'm overriding some of the methods, maybe it doesn't understand DocumentHandler's yet
21:39:56 <lindi-> calamari: can you put the source somewhere so i can report bugs to gnu classpath?
21:40:03 <calamari> needed to prevent free scrolling, otherwise the terminal effect is lost
21:40:26 <calamari> lindi-: sure, but there are 0 comments, so it's somewhat ugly atm
21:40:58 <lindi-> calamari: i'll just strip it and try to create reduced testcases for individual bugs
21:42:19 <calamari> lindi-: http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/EsoShell/EsoShell.tar.gz
21:43:31 <calamari> aha.. it didn't go where I thought it did
21:43:39 <calamari> http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/EsoShell.tar.gz
21:45:24 <calamari> hmm, doesn't work in IE either.. need to work out these bugs :)
21:47:37 <kipple> what doesn't work in IE? here it works in IE, Mozilla and Opera
21:48:36 <calamari> hmm, cool. It tells me, Main.EsoShell class not found... running it under QEmu, but that shouldn't matter
21:50:39 <kipple> maybe you should make the textarea read only, and then use key-events for input. That way you could let the user select anything regardless of the cursor
21:50:46 <lindi-> calamari: keyTyped does not seem to be called at all..
21:51:18 <calamari> kipple: will I still have a blinking cursor that way?
21:51:46 <kipple> No. but I think you could make your own...
21:53:21 <kipple> either painting it directly, or inserting/removing a rectangular character every half a sec or something
21:54:53 <calamari> and also I don't know how to do that stuff
21:55:24 <calamari> I've painted images to make a screen.. but that'd require a lot of downloading
21:56:07 <calamari> since they are individual PNGs
21:58:44 <kipple> how about this: textarea.setText(textarea.getText(0, textarea.getText().length()-1) + "_");
21:59:03 <kipple> alternate with: textarea.setText(textarea.getText(0, textarea.getText().length()-1) + " ");
21:59:19 <calamari> why, though? is there something wrong with the way I have it? :)
22:00:09 <kipple> only that you can't select properly. and it was you who brought it up :)
22:02:07 <kipple> not a big deal, but nice if you're going to have an editor
22:02:41 <calamari> the editor itself will be okay, because it'll be past the prompt
22:03:20 <calamari> I think I have to go with a full screen editor.. it's what people are used to
22:05:37 <kipple> the problem is, you're not going to be able to save anything...
22:05:58 <kipple> security restrictions in applets
22:06:26 <calamari> it's a fake filesystem I'm writing for the applet
22:06:44 <kipple> in other words: you're not going to be able to save anything ;)
22:07:02 <kipple> I mean for the next time you load the console
22:07:33 <kipple> well, not totally, actually
22:08:14 <kipple> you *could* have some CGI store the files....
22:08:28 <calamari> now we're getting complicated :)
22:10:37 <kipple> or pass them to a file upload form through HTTP....
22:11:28 <calamari> remember that the files are on the local machine already
22:11:33 <kipple> anyway. not sure if it is important. depends on what it's going to be used for...
22:12:01 <kipple> yes, but the applet will never be allowed to store them there
22:16:02 <pgimeno> I think that applets can communicate with javascript somehow and javascript can store cookies
22:16:52 <kipple> I think applets can communicate with a browser directly to some extent as well
22:16:57 <calamari> pgimeno: yes, that's what I'm seeing too :)
22:17:13 <calamari> for example: https://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/lists/advanced-java/2000-August/012042.html
22:18:23 <pgimeno> I've never written an applet though, I can't be of much help here
22:19:12 <calamari> I think cookies have size limit restrictions
22:23:52 <malaprop> std. max size for cookies is 4k
22:24:05 <kipple> about that example: where does this JSObject class come from? can't find it in the API
22:26:01 <calamari> dunno, I saw this page, though: http://java.sun.com/products/plugin/1.3/docs/jsobject.html
22:26:53 <kipple> ah. it's a third party package
22:30:01 <calamari> cookies can be 4k, including the site name storage :)
22:30:36 <kipple> well, then you have 80k storage :D
22:31:30 <calamari> I think I'm going to push the priority on this down a little
23:15:19 <pgimeno> we've discussed previously about why not allowing uploading the files via MediaWiki
23:16:30 <pgimeno> the main objection is that svn is just another piece of software to have to make the mirroring
23:17:31 <graue> it's a good way to allow multiple editors to add/update files
23:17:35 <calamari> what am I writing this applet for, then? :)
23:23:47 <calamari> I personally think not allowing files is a terrible decision
23:23:47 <graue> either i, or anyone else who wants to bother using subversion, can always make a .tar.bz2 for others to use for backups
23:23:47 <graue> calamari, the files directory will be separate from the wiki, but it will exist
23:23:47 <pgimeno> in fact it already does :)
23:23:47 <calamari> I remember one of the reasons we chose MediaWiki was that it allowed file uploading
23:23:47 <pgimeno> graue: I actually expected that there would be more files in zip/tarball form than in text form
23:23:47 <pgimeno> I don't expect the files in there to change at all
23:23:47 <graue> calamari, wiki is not good for organizing files into hierarchies
23:23:47 <graue> the file repository is like /language, /language/impl, /language/doc, /language/src, etc
23:23:47 <graue> if anything needs to be visually illustrated on the wiki, images can be uploaded
23:23:47 <graue> also, everything in the wiki should be PD just to avoid confusion, even files
23:24:01 <calamari> graue: I don't see the problem
23:24:34 <calamari> just allow ppl to upload files where they think it's appropriate.. if they upload in the bf page, it's probably going to be a bf related file
23:25:26 <graue> uploads are not in a page; they just wind up in a global namespace
23:25:29 <pgimeno> uploads can be restricted to certain users, right?
23:26:35 <calamari> graue: that sounds like a limitatiuon of MediaWiki then.. MoinMoin allowed attachments on any page
23:26:41 <pgimeno> graue: that's not bad for tarball distributions; it's bad for tree structures ΰ la Cat's Eye
23:27:05 <pgimeno> calamari: I think he means that there's one single files dir, no subdirs
23:27:25 <graue> why would we have tarball distributions? most programs in brainfuck, intercal, wierd, snusp, etc are single files
23:27:55 <calamari> pgimeno: okay.. but I don't see why that causes a problem either, really
23:27:59 <graue> maybe for certain more sophisticated implementations, but not for programs written in most esoteric languages
23:28:20 <pgimeno> hum, I was thinking more about the languages themselves than about the programs written with them
23:28:28 <calamari> graue: oh yeah.. don't forget to turn on Java, unless it's already on :)
23:29:20 <graue> in what, my browser?
23:30:03 <graue> don't embed it, you'll freeze everyone's computer for 10 seconds loading it even if they aren't interested
23:30:10 <graue> link to an external page that has it embedded
23:30:33 <calamari> it can be on a separate wiki page
23:30:50 <pgimeno> calamari: about namespace collision: say, hello.bf - is it a befunge program or a brainfuck program?
23:31:13 <calamari> pgimeno: I wonder if it'll tell you when you upload that the file already exists?
23:31:43 <graue> .b is brainfuck, .bf is befunge
23:31:52 <pgimeno> but that's a problem of lack of a directory hierarchy
23:32:22 <pgimeno> graue: it was just an example of namespace collision :)
23:32:24 <calamari> graue: so, how about having the applet on it's own wiki page.. that way it's not loaded unless the person wants it.. is that cool?
23:32:57 <graue> it's fine, but why does it need to be on a wiki page?
23:33:17 <kipple> the point is to be able to have enerything in one place...
23:33:38 <kipple> why not have it on a wiki page?
23:35:06 <pgimeno> I don't know how are special pages handled... if they can be special in that they support any html, a special page can probably do it
23:35:10 <graue> i'm thinking wiki = information, files = code
23:36:48 <kipple> as long as where the files are kept can be easily linked to from the wiki, and easily uploaded to I'm happy
23:37:00 <kipple> and easily backed up, of course
23:37:12 <calamari> I still don't see why the normal user can't upload files
23:38:03 <kipple> there are potential security risks: what if someone uploads a php file....
23:39:05 <calamari> how would it become executable?
23:39:38 <graue> the way it's usually set up files with a php extension are automatically executed
23:39:42 <kipple> if it's on the web server, wouldn't it be executed?
23:39:47 <calamari> yeah.. the only exception that I know of at the moment would be for the java applets
23:40:24 <kipple> exception to what? I'm not sure what you are referring to there...
23:43:19 <calamari> oh.. I meant that attachments should just be downloadable files unless its an applet
23:44:03 <kipple> I don't understand. applets are not single files. they have at least two... (HTML and class/jar)
23:45:56 <calamari> well I assumed it would be a jar.. someone in here sid that mediawiki supported running java applets.. that's what I'm basing this on :)
23:46:11 <calamari> if that's wrong.. then sorry :)
23:46:56 <kipple> as I see it, you should both be able to download the applet's jar, or run it on the wiki.
23:49:44 <pgimeno> I wonder what happened to my java interpreter :(
23:50:50 <kipple> interpreting java? or an interpreter written in java?
23:56:18 <kipple> graue: did you see my last entry on Talk: Language list?
23:56:38 <kipple> I think I found the way to put the list in the navigation menu
23:57:00 <kipple> but I didn't have permissions to test it
23:59:36 <pgimeno> yay! I've run the java applet in the original profile (after saving my tabs) and it worked... it's like java does not like multiple instances