< 1117843261 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no dp intercal package < 1117843261 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is reading the lazybrain spec < 1117843298 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dp? < 1117843306 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darwin ports < 1117843315 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1117843329 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :automatic downloading+(patching if needed)+compilation of source code < 1117843353 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is apt-get for osx (fink) too.. but the packages are always out of date < 1117843421 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: are the function's tapes local or global? < 1117843431 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :local < 1117843435 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :semi local < 1117843456 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are used for passing arguments.. but they aren't used for returning values < 1117843508 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, whatever the function does, it does not alter the main tape? (except for the return values) < 1117843517 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1117843533 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. the spec should be a bit clearer about that methinks < 1117843539 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm.. < 1117843574 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps not... on second reading it is quite clear :) < 1117843625 0 :graue!~graue@ip68-100-135-226.dc.dc.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117843696 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :changed it a bit so that it is clear on the first reading < 1117843702 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :debian has the libacme-brainfck-perl package, which seems to implement brainfuck (it allows it to be mixed with perl code according to the package description) < 1117843744 0 :mathkid!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1117843749 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, a whitespace interpreter, whitespace, is there < 1117843999 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lazy brain confuses me too much < 1117844171 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1117844351 0 :graue!~graue@ip68-100-135-226.dc.dc.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117844830 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: why? < 1117845007 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22 commands... < 1117845088 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23 < 1117845666 0 :Keymaker!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1117845673 0 :Keymaker!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :must go < 1117845686 0 :Keymaker!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see you on 7th or 8th. :) < 1117845696 0 :Keymaker!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nite < 1117845700 0 :Keymaker!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1117846621 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've abandoned xhtml in favour of html4 since these M$ patents < 1117846665 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1117846860 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry! The wiki is experiencing some technical difficulties, and cannot contact the database server. < 1117846860 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/tmp/mysql.sock' (61) < 1117846926 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which wiki? the esolang wiki works fine... < 1117846934 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was down for about 20 secs < 1117847604 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Banned from network" < 1117847696 0 :graue!~graue@ip68-100-130-21.dc.dc.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117848905 0 :wooby!~wooby@cpe-065-191-186-247.nc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1117848955 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahoyo < 1117850420 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"See you later" < 1117851019 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1117853582 0 :comet_11!~Sanity@dialup-151.89.221.203.acc50-kent-syd.comindico.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1117854969 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1117855581 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This stupid commercial says that they can give you any hair color, "within the physical limitations of electromagnetic waves." < 1117855585 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want ultraviolet hair. < 1117855590 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHERE'S MY ULTRAVIOLET HAIR?! < 1117857150 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure it could be managed with the right chemicals < 1117857163 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :invisible wavelength hair is an interesting concept, lol < 1117858628 0 :GregorR-L!~GregorR-L@c-24-21-138-66.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117858632 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gamma hair 8-D < 1117858640 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"My hair gives me cancer" < 1117859584 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1117859623 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your hair could also give other people cancer < 1117859775 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But would I care? No! I'd be too brain-cancery to care. < 1117859947 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah if i had elite radioactive hair i probably wouldn't care either < 1117860096 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1117860135 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about radio waves? < 1117860150 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When your hair flowed around, different static would be sent over the radio. < 1117861157 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be kind of cool to walk into a room and the TV goes bonkers < 1117861179 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hey sonny, you dig my ku-band hair?" < 1117861203 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1117861249 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i desperately want to come up with my own esolang, but i'm idea-less < 1117861329 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I came up with an idea and gave it to you, it wouldn't be your idea. < 1117861333 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So good luck ;) < 1117861545 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i know! that's the kicker < 1117862095 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I knew anything about the communication between proteins, it would be awesome to make a programming language based on genetic code :) < 1117862175 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Communication" is a stretch. < 1117862222 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1117862267 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well a hack would be to implement smallfuck, using g,t,c,a as the operators < 1117862288 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programs would look cool, anyways < 1117862301 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GATTACA < 1117862326 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not authentic enough for me *shrugs* < 1117862343 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah me neither :\ < 1117862662 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i'm calling it a night < 1117862677 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have to polish off some takeout and watch some law and orders < 1117862708 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :g'night < 1117862784 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Buhbye < 1117865044 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, now I know how to build peptide chains ... < 1117865114 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still not sure how to turn that into programming :-P < 1117865130 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1117867827 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The function of the peptide sequences is deterministic but mind-numbingly complex. < 1117868094 0 :comet_11!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1117868094 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1117868094 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1117868096 0 :wooby!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1117868098 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1117868098 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1117868099 0 :ChanServ!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1117868099 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1117868114 0 :malaprop!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1117868114 0 :cmeme!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1117868114 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1117868114 0 :ZeroOne!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1117868220 0 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. JOIN :#esoteric < 1117868220 0 :GregorR-L!~GregorR-L@c-24-21-138-66.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117868220 0 :comet_11!~Sanity@dialup-151.89.221.203.acc50-kent-syd.comindico.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1117868220 0 :wooby!~wooby@cpe-065-191-186-247.nc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1117868220 0 :malaprop!~ph@ppp-68-251-59-237.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117868220 0 :pgimeno!pgimeno@124.Red-80-59-211.pooles.rima-tde.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117868220 0 :cpressey!nobody@d154-20-76-195.bchsia.telus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117868220 0 :lindi-!~lindi@81.17.193.150 JOIN :#esoteric < 1117868220 0 :fizzie!fis@sesefras.tky.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1117868220 0 :ZeroOne!~vsaalo@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1117868220 0 :cmeme!~cmeme@216.184.11.2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1117868220 0 :mtve!mtve@mtve.vm.jvds.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1117868220 0 :irc.freenode.net!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+o ChanServ < 1117868246 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I made a PHP genetic code -> peptide parser < 1117868246 0 :comet_11!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :CXI < 1117869814 0 :Keymaker!~Not@wire74.adsl.netsonic.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1117869819 0 :Keymaker!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1117869827 0 :Keymaker!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just to came say "bye for a while" < 1117869832 0 :Keymaker!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye for a while! < 1117869845 0 :Keymaker!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see you all on 7th < 1117869852 0 :Keymaker!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :keep up to good work < 1117869855 0 :Keymaker!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1117869857 0 :Keymaker!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1117870989 0 :graue!~graue@ip68-100-130-21.dc.dc.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117871035 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :news flash: sort language gets name, nice website, faux-academic paper! details @ http://www.oceanbase.org/graue/sortle/ < 1117871099 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w00t < 1117871124 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool name < 1117871171 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sortle < 1117871172 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From Esolang < 1117871172 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There is currently no text in this page) < 1117871172 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome :D < 1117871205 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, well, go ahead and make it then < 1117871233 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would if I knew anything about it < 1117871252 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1117871276 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i vaguely remember a programming language called GCAT that pretended to be genetic code < 1117871543 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know < 1117871553 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a vaguely remember hearing something about a sorting language < 1117871567 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/^a/i < 1117871582 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if i'm hallucinating or not < 1117871629 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's the language Sorted!, but it doesn't seem very similar to sortle < 1117871656 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bubble? there's also Jeffry Johnston's Bubble, based on bubble sort < 1117871695 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hadn't gotten around to reading this yet, but it's described at http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/compilers/bubble/bubble.txt < 1117871893 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1117871894 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that < 1117871975 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it fun? it doesn't seem to have been implemented < 1117871999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1117872000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1117872002 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea < 1117872162 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are ^ and $ separate operators? < 1117872249 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i didn't realize they were exactly equivalent when i wrote the spec :) < 1117872275 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i decided to maintain both of them just to see if anyone would notice < 1117872281 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :their implementation is the exact same < 1117872326 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i noticed, can you remove one now? :) < 1117872392 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe in commercial implementations, the difference will be that the ^ operator is licensed for noncommercial use only, and you have to pay extra to get the $ operator < 1117872399 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but seriously < 1117872417 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll replace the $ operator with something better when i have an idea for another string operator that will be useful < 1117872593 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the opposite of ^? "" if either string is empty? < 1117872733 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I need brainstorming help. < 1117872752 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After I've produced peptide sequences, how should they be parsed into functional entities? < 1117872951 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION peruses the human genome. < 1117872969 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm blissfully ignorant as to what a peptide sequence represents in the first place < 1117873023 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amino acids are combined into peptide sequences, which in turn fold into proteins, which are the most prominant physical building blocks of life. < 1117873134 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this programming language supposed to be realistic? < 1117873145 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does a peptide sequence look like? GCAT and such? < 1117873188 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: well you just have to work out how they fold into proteins, and then use the proteins as functional entities :P < 1117873200 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CXI: Wow, that's easy 8-D < 1117873205 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah eh? :D < 1117873214 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: Chemically speaking, they're usually written something like this: SKPRVYASQDVR < 1117873228 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's some peptide sequence in neurons. < 1117873637 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, heck if i know < 1117873644 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're the peptide expert < 1117873674 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No I'm not X-D < 1117874157 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UGUCAUGUCGACGCGAGACGCGCCGUCGCACGCUUCGACUACUACUAUGCGUUCGAACUCCACCACUAA < 1117874157 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CHVDARRAVARADYYYAAELHH < 1117874157 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UCACGCGUUCGAGCAUCGACUACGCGUGUCGAUCGACACGUCGCAUCGAACCGCAUGAUCGAUCGAUGA < 1117874157 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SRVRASTTRVDRHVASNRMIDR < 1117874157 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CUCGAUCACAGUCACCGCGUCUAUUCGACCGUUCGAACGACACUCCUAUCGACGUCACCUCUCUACUAUGCUGUGCCUCGUAGCUGUACGUAG < 1117874158 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LDHSHRVYSTVRTTLLSTSPLYYAVPRSCT < 1117874162 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ A melanin concentrating hormone < 1117874531 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the relationship between GCAT and GCAU, again? < 1117874544 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it A <-> T/U, G <-> C? < 1117874898 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T -> U < 1117874905 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In DNA, it's T, in RNA it's U. < 1117874927 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I just answered the wrong question, didn't I? < 1117874950 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a-g and c-t/u I think < 1117874979 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N/M < 1117874983 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a-t/u, g-c < 1117877033 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1117877075 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's http://www.wisdom.weizmann.ac.il/~udi/DNA5/scripps_short/sld019.htm and the slides after that. < 1117877121 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not-really-related-but-still. < 1117879091 0 :sp3tt!~chatzilla@lite-148-133.umenet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117879501 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello sp3tt < 1117880009 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 145 (Connection timed out) < 1117881209 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moin < 1117881549 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good moining, pgimeno < 1117881640 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1117881941 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(np: Scrap Heap - Hiccup Jam) < 1117883080 0 :puzzlet!~puzzlet@61.247.148.38 JOIN :#esoteric < 1117883578 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi puzzlet < 1117883879 0 :sp3tt!~chatzilla@lite-148-133.umenet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117884029 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi graue < 1117884407 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish C had ||= and &&= operators < 1117884473 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't |= !! enough? < 1117884490 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: maybe += and *= will do it < 1117884517 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|= !! works, i guess < 1117884533 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's "!!"? < 1117884538 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not not < 1117884542 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns a value into 0 or 1 < 1117884543 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1117884566 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lhs should be already 0 or 1 for that to work < 1117884590 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was i thinking, !! works for tribit or something? < 1117884620 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are troolean operations defined? < 1117884636 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if George Boole saw me write that...) < 1117884651 0 :jix!jix@p5489AE15.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117884655 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is crazy operators for tribits in [[Malbolge]] < 1117884660 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :operator* < 1117884661 0 :GregorR!~GregorR@c-24-21-138-66.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117884677 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moin < 1117884687 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moin jix, GregorR < 1117884691 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :joheun achim < 1117884698 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :troolean algebra? < 1117884709 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1117884721 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does that go? true, false, or maybe? < 1117884729 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe ;) < 1117884755 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a strong preference towards balanced trinary though < 1117884774 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about analog boolean algebra; instead of false or true everything is a float from 0.0 to 1.0 < 1117884792 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like fuzzy logic < 1117884803 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats what i thought too < 1117884844 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about, like GTTCAAATGGTA? < 1117884907 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i swear i remember a "GCAT programming language" from somewhere < 1117885038 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've seen an article about making a processor out of DNA's and RNA's < 1117885201 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe making retro-virii out of those biocomputers to infect human world will become possible ;) < 1117886673 0 :kipple!~kipple@163.80-202-100.nextgentel.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1117887037 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moin kipple < 1117887042 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1117887720 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhrg... some logic mistakes in my Lazy Brain design < 1117887935 0 :J|x!jix@p5489F5C2.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117887961 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1117887969 0 :J|x!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :jix < 1117888215 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1117888347 0 :GregorR!~GregorR@c-24-21-138-66.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117888636 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok.. that should work now < 1117888877 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: I've read the Sortle spec. it's not clear to me how to push values onto the stack. < 1117888910 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a list of operators that work on the stack, but I can't find how to acutally get any data on the stack in the first place... < 1117888920 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Befunge and BrainF*ck are both toy languages written expressly to be perverse in some way (Befunge to be uncompilable, and BrainF*ck to be absurdly minimalist.)" < 1117888983 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says who? < 1117889851 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some slashdotter. < 1117889862 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=32469&cid=3504293 < 1117890083 0 :sp3tt_!~chatzilla@cust-148-133.elhandel.umeaenergi.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1117890172 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah. he got a slashdot entry for a polyglot with just 4 languages?? < 1117890595 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1117890601 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kipple, literal numbers or strings push themselves onto the stack < 1117890610 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he sees uncompilability as absurdness? < 1117890687 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every language is compilable though < 1117890698 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. so will the expression "12" push 12 or 1 and 2 onto the stack? < 1117890701 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12 < 1117890748 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. so how do you separate numbers? space? comma? semicolon? (is this missing from the spec, or am I blind?) < 1117890781 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :terms are separated by spaces < 1117890822 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. you might want to make the spec a little clearer on this... < 1117890888 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is the spec? < 1117890986 0 :smart!~sexabad@202.61.60.49 JOIN :#esoteric < 1117891013 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.oceanbase.org/graue/sortle/sortle.pdf < 1117891048 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the format used is spelled out in "Source Code Format" < 1117891305 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, yes. there it is. < 1117891512 0 :smart!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1117892009 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1117892253 0 :sexy!~sexabad@202.61.60.49 JOIN :#esoteric < 1117892284 0 :sexy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1117892341 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a 5lang polyglot < 1117892385 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too < 1117892405 0 :GregorR!~GregorR@c-24-21-138-66.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117892409 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I intend to add more < 1117892616 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what languages has your poly? < 1117892635 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BF, befunge, kipple, Ork and chef < 1117892639 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yours? < 1117892647 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash perl ruby c and BF < 1117892672 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no malbolge? < 1117892681 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:) < 1117892684 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have also a version with kipple but it doesn't work with the online interpreter (with cipple it does) < 1117892696 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the problem? < 1117892718 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the java interpreter ignore << ? < 1117892727 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not < 1117892738 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cipple does because in $E=<<#&>/dev/null there is no valid command < 1117892754 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i use heredocs to seperate ruby,perl and bash code < 1117892769 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume my interpreter will give an invalid stack identifier error or something < 1117892937 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm. here's a thought: If I allow < to be used as a stack name, then this expression could be used: a<b would be valid code (brainfuck/kipple polyglot would be very nice) < 1117894044 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ is a number? < 1117894051 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1117894053 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no a stack < 1117894063 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1117894067 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a command < 1117894069 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's either a stack or an operator < 1117894596 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a friend of my brother is a friend of the false inventor < 1117894673 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1117894766 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm. should I keep stack names case insensitive, or change to case sensitive? < 1117894851 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, man < 1117894858 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realised a much easier way to write my regex language < 1117894889 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can do away with function names entirely < 1117894905 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and just make it repeatedly reapply the regexes < 1117894966 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kipple: i have no opinion on that at the moment < 1117894984 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a big deal, but it might break some old programs < 1117895050 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, do it < 1117895157 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. screw backwards compatability :) < 1117895219 0 :sp3tt__!~chatzilla@lite-148-133.umenet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117895222 0 :sp3tt__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sp3tt < 1117895240 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :real men don't need backwards compatibility < 1117895516 0 :graue_!~graue@ip68-100-135-226.dc.dc.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117896009 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 145 (Connection timed out) < 1117896111 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=32469&cid=3505272 rofl < 1117896285 0 :sp3tt_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1117897291 0 :graue_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1117897345 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chef is awesome < 1117897566 0 :graue_!~graue@ip68-100-130-21.dc.dc.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117898727 0 :graue_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :graue < 1117900856 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1117900861 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to figure out 99 bottles < 1117900882 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which 99 bottles? < 1117900912 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Two Problems :P < 1117900919 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1117900922 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, I'm not actually sure if it's turing complete < 1117900951 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically I figured I can just make it a list of regular expressions and evaluate them in order, rewinding the list if any match < 1117901240 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah well < 1117901244 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made it count from 1 to 99 < 1117901247 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's something :D < 1117901255 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I just need to find a less braindead way of doing it < 1117901595 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. My maths based language can print 99 bottles, but it's not pretty xD < 1117901609 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://rename.noll8.nu/sp3tt/beer.math < 1117901648 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not bad < 1117901689 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1117901739 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1117901816 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://members.dodo.com.au/~sgentle/99.2p < 1117901824 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that only counts up to 99 :( < 1117901845 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, technically it counts down from 99 < 1117901860 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it adds to the front of the list < 1117901932 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least it proves the name fits the language. < 1117901940 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1117901956 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it should be called 99 problems < 1117901978 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1117901982 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a bitch ain't one? < 1117902019 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(google 99 problems if you don't get it) < 1117902049 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. didn't know it was a song < 1117903959 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just invented and implemented a new language < 1117903963 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb, testing it < 1117903986 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow. these languages sure keep popping up lately... < 1117904202 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1117904213 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you see why wikipedia is so afraid of them < 1117905672 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the interpreter works, now it's time to write hello world < 1117906031 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does "k">@>o in kipple produce 7? < 1117906037 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't it produce the ascii value of k? < 1117906103 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"k">@ pushes 3 values onto @, 1, 0 and 7. @>o only pushes one value onto o, nemaly 7 < 1117906112 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ok < 1117906159 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely, I meant :) < 1117906367 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"k">@ (@>o) would be the way to do that < 1117906850 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not "k">(@>o)? < 1117906915 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would not work < 1117906939 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"k">( would give an error that ( is not a stack < 1117906957 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I have considered allowing that < 1117907071 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CXI: are there specs for 2p already? < 1117907204 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, not really... I want to make sure it's turing complete first < 1117907252 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you seen Thue? it's turing-complete < 1117907423 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, interesting < 1117909020 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1117909032 0 :graue!~graue@ip68-100-130-21.dc.dc.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1117909960 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone have a description of PingPong? < 1117911345 0 :ZeroOne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.inz.info/pingpong/ < 1117911381 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wee, thanks! I tried it in the past to no avail. < 1117911420 0 :ZeroOne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no problem. :) archive.org is sometimes a true jewel. < 1117911506 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however I mean that I tried archive.org in the past but I got an error or a not found < 1117911545 0 :ZeroOne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ok. maybe you tried some wrong address then? < 1117911604 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what happened < 1117911622 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure I tried that at least twice a few weeks ago < 1117911672 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia redirects to the Pong game :( < 1117911709 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got an idea for my genomic programming language :) < 1117911738 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My peptide chains will stack rather than fold, and simply based on every-other amino acid being "compatible" < 1117911764 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certain peptide chains will be attracted to the "output" receptor, and will cause the data on them to be output. < 1117911776 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same with input, except a new peptide chain will be created. < 1117911790 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still working on breaking peptide chains. < 1117911864 0 :ZeroOne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right :) < 1117911880 0 :ZeroOne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck with that genetic manipulation then. ;) bbl. -> < 1117911930 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheh < 1117912048 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damnit, the storage available to programs in my language is dependent on code size < 1117912063 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll have to change something to fix this < 1117912121 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it took me two hours to realize that) < 1117912191 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: do you mean Sortle or the new one? < 1117912195 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so? can't both the expressions and the expression names be of arbitrary length? < 1117912197 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the new one < 1117912200 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not Sortle < 1117912206 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, the new one :) < 1117912294 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, if a program reads input up to EOF, it has as much storage as it wants because it can keep getting new zero bytes < 1117912299 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not very pretty < 1117912392 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the opinion about having all of the languages of the List of Lesser Known Languages in the Wiki, with a category just for them? < 1117912453 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: about this wiki-category "Lesser known programming languages". what exactly do you consider lesser known? < 1117912462 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, they're jokes, right? < 1117912475 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: yes < 1117912478 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they're significant in your opinion they could go on the joke language list < 1117912489 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kipple: the list is an old joke posted to usenet in the 80's < 1117912496 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of languages that didn't exist < 1117912511 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1117912530 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of them, VALGOL, has since been implemented < 1117912544 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there such a list already created? < 1117912549 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I think this "joke language" category has some issues < 1117912586 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while some languages are just a joke (Bitxtreme, HQ9+), some are fully functional < 1117912601 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :l33t, for instance < 1117912624 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it interesting for more than humor value to you? < 1117912643 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1117912673 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's why it's a joke < 1117912687 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HQ9+ is just as fully functional; it's been implemented < 1117912720 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I was talking about being actually usable. < 1117912800 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL (and a lot of other esolangs) isn't really interesting to me for more than humor value, either < 1117912821 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do you want to make a list of remarkably useable programs as opposed to a list of joke languages? < 1117912851 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. I want ALL languages in the main list, and several categories to classify them further < 1117912861 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :++ < 1117912865 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kipple: I was asking to graue, sorry < 1117912876 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1117912877 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I agree with kipple: arguably most esoteric languages are jokes < 1117912931 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and where the line between jokes and interesting languages go is highly subjective < 1117912986 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I think that the wikipedia approach of adding a short explanation of the language together with the name is a good idea < 1117913006 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that that was possible with categories, hence my comment some days ago < 1117913035 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it turns out not to be possible, so the main list seems to be the proper place < 1117913135 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1117913153 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's reasonable to split languages into turing-complete, non-turing-complete, and unknown < 1117913175 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would filter out hq9+ which is not turing-complete < 1117913196 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good idea, categories for computational class < 1117913204 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree. turing-completeness isn't that important < 1117913209 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is. < 1117913213 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. ANSI C is not TC < 1117913214 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, SMETANA and Befunge-93 are not Turing-complete, but still interesting < 1117913222 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh! is not Turing-complete < 1117913224 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: exactly < 1117913224 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1117913227 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1117913237 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/turing-completeness/anywhere close to turing :) < 1117913238 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kipple: doesn't mean it isn't a nice category idea though < 1117913252 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can have as many sets of categories as we like < 1117913268 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very true. we should have a bunch of categories < 1117913285 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still have no idea what makes smetana/befunge better than hq9+ computationally < 1117913291 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed I've added some already (Lambda calculus paradigm) < 1117913292 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually befunge is turing-complete i think < 1117913296 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not -93 < 1117913304 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it had a limited code size < 1117913306 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can program with smetana/befunge. You cannot program in HQ9+ ;) < 1117913311 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1117913322 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turing complete != "you can program in it" < 1117913359 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turing completeness is often overrated IMHO < 1117913390 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1117913403 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe a "finite state machine with enough states to do a lot of useful things at least" category < 1117913405 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"TC with memory restriction" is important < 1117913412 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is handwaving of course < 1117913424 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but essentially means "as good as computers" < 1117913448 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :befunge and smetana can do as much computation as a computer < 1117913453 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hq9+ can't < 1117913503 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still like the cat programming language: every program is a quine! < 1117913511 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what category should that one go in? < 1117913567 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same as HQ9+ IMO < 1117913612 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"TC with memory restriction" = finite state automaton = lookup table, at least in terms of computability < 1117913626 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the really interesting thing is not just computability then < 1117913638 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm not sure what it is < 1117913649 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've looked in the literature and there's really nothing that i could find about it < 1117913652 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Useable for programming"? < 1117913656 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1117913658 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, informally < 1117913661 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but define that?!?! < 1117913662 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :useable/unuseable < 1117913664 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1117913666 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can write 99bob in it? :D < 1117913677 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HQ9+? < 1117913678 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can write 'n' bottles of beer, maybe < 1117913682 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just suggesting it being a Category:Useable for programming < 1117913682 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :99 is finite :) < 1117913687 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1117913699 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's spelled Usable < 1117913711 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CXI: actually, no, you're right < 1117913713 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or close < 1117913726 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like, being able to write 99 bottles of beer, in less space than writing out the song literally < 1117913732 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a form of compression < 1117913736 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1117913737 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gzip < 1117913740 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1117913745 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(don't laugh, there's a gzip quine) < 1117913769 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's also what the malbolge program did < 1117913772 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if wang tiles are a computer then... < 1117913863 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: I think both spellings are allowed < 1117913873 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay then < 1117913900 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, in smb.conf you can use both writeable and writable ;) < 1117913943 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my English-Spanish dict does not list "useable", so it's probably wrong < 1117913973 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my dict: usable also: useable < 1117913981 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you hate it when you make a wonderful elegant symmetrical Turing tarpit with just the right level of pain and it turns out the storage available is limited by how many nested loops you use? < 1117913984 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. dictionary.com too < 1117914000 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION throws his dict out the window < 1117914005 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dict.leo.org/?useable < 1117914034 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate it when that happens < 1117914043 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never happened to me < 1117914179 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay: how about distinguishing between pure joke languages (HQ9+, bitxtreme etc.) and humorous, though still useful languages < 1117914182 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: sounds like a push-down automaton < 1117914227 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a category for languages clearly intended as jokes would work, i think < 1117914245 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a category plus a little mention in the list, IMO < 1117914248 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, just because a language is intended as a joke, doesn't mean it can't be useful < 1117914258 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as in turing-complete) < 1117914268 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed < 1117914272 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or as in us[e]able ;) < 1117914278 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i can think of any examples at the moment < 1117914285 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL < 1117914286 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cow < 1117914293 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ook! < 1117914293 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah, intercal < 1117914308 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose the joke category is only for languages which both were clearly intended as jokes and have not attracted significant attention from others after their creation < 1117914310 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is this is that unless the author makes the entry, we're sort of left to try to read their minds < 1117914311 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, ook and the like.. i'm not even sure they deserve a mention < 1117914321 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they aren't even jokes < 1117914334 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not funny, it's sad < 1117914354 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to clarify my preceding statement, significant attention as us[e]able languages :) < 1117914361 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I thought the Hello World program in Ook! was pretty funny the first time I saw it... < 1117914383 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd actually like a rating/voting system , but that's probably beyond the scope of a wiki < 1117914393 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like: 3 people thought this was amusiing, etc < 1117914395 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the fact that we're whining about Ook! on irc is enough reason to document it, but it shouldn't be on the main list < 1117914453 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it could be, with an entry like this: * [[Ook!]] (joke), direct translation of [[Brainfuck]] commands < 1117914490 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as well as COW etc.) < 1117914550 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be in a "alternate representations" category < 1117914571 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only ook and cow would be in it < 1117914583 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doublefuck < 1117914588 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the huffman encoded BF < 1117914594 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, that opens a whole new can of worms: is Malbolge an alternate representation of Dis? is it the other way around? < 1117914602 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't fuckfuck one of those as well? < 1117914607 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1117914608 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup < 1117914620 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all alternate representations are alternate representations of brainfuck < 1117914627 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1117914632 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boolfuck < 1117914640 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps they could all be grouped in one article then. < 1117914640 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a nice list on wp: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Languages_based_on_brainfuck < 1117914643 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1117914657 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :along with smalfuck and the like < 1117914681 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good idea, lament < 1117914683 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a difference in "based on" and "exactly the same" though < 1117914692 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1117914709 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but are there any bf-based languages that really deserve any attention? :) < 1117914737 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes there are < 1117914755 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smallfuck for one < 1117914764 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm... i'm not sure i'd call the lambda calculus a "paradigm"... < 1117914783 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we should aim to include every esolang, even ook, fuckfuck, cow etc. but those could be bunched together in one article, referenced from the BF article < 1117914793 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree < 1117914801 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if the most succinct way to describe it is "it's Brainfuck with a...", it belongs in that article < 1117914803 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: sorry, I'm not an academic, feel free to correct it < 1117914816 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I think that's a good approach too < 1117914841 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: ok (still reading the diffs from the past few days :) < 1117914896 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the only remaining question is whether they should be listed in the main list or not < 1117914920 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they should, so that anyone looking for a particular language can find them < 1117914925 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about this "program forms" category: what exactly should be in it? only abstract concepts like the ones there now, or also things like hello world and 99bob? < 1117914977 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think categories for the level of presence of a langauge would be nice < 1117914984 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably measured in the amount of works there are for it < 1117915015 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spec/compiler or interpreter/sample programs etc < 1117915017 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CXI: yeah. but where to draw the line..... < 1117915028 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, SNUSP looks like a bf descendant and a 2-d language, should probably be in both cats < 1117915039 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you wouldn't necessarily have to draw any lines < 1117915066 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just have category:compiler/interpreter exists or whatever < 1117915139 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I agree, but graue apparently disagrees. < 1117915146 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SNUSP and LNUSP are both derived from PATH, so if any of them should be in the BF-derived category, all should probably be < 1117915208 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: the SNUSP article is written by you, right? < 1117915212 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SNUSP is the most interesting of them and in its modular version it doesn't really look anything like brainfuck code, but core snusp is indeed close < 1117915214 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1117915225 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it says: " Core SNUSP is a two-dimensional Brainfuck with a more flexible way of expressing loops" < 1117915242 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, most SNUSP programs are written in Modular SNUSP < 1117915242 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and " Core SNUSP is essentially Brainfuck with a two-dimensional control flow" < 1117915286 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CXI: how about category:implemented ? < 1117915406 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like category: implemented < 1117915411 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1117915422 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's nice < 1117915598 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man < 1117915605 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the wikipedia Chef Hello World isn't well-formed < 1117915606 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no title :D < 1117915665 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's becoming apparent that there should be a list of categories to categorize each language (sorry for the repetition): joke, usable, implemented... < 1117915681 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CXI: it has a title. it's comments it lacks. < 1117915707 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm? it doesn't have anything above "Ingredients." though < 1117915714 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wait, we may be looking at different pages < 1117915720 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, this made me laugh: < 1117915721 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The following code should theoretically translate to the peptide HELLQWQRLD, (cross fingers). < 1117915721 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : TACGTACTTAATAATGTTACCGTTGCAAATCTAATC < 1117915771 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, yeah, the one on [[Chef programming language]] is okay < 1117915792 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was talking about [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] < 1117915833 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. I see < 1117915912 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, now it is correct :) < 1117915918 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1117915932 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: yes. there are a LOT of potential categories < 1117915987 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance: I think we should have a "stack-based" category < 1117916026 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stack-based meaning which languages? < 1117916040 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what exactly is that? only langs with only one stack, like befunge, or including languages like Chef and Kipple? < 1117916076 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that including all; that makes it easier to look for a particular language which is stack based < 1117916084 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1117916101 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :languages that use stacks as its main/only data structure < 1117916111 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you call the brainfuck datastructure? tape? < 1117916117 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd call it a tape, yeah < 1117916138 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to write an attempt of a [[Categorization]] page < 1117916146 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are 3 different tape types.. no ends.. one end.. 2 ends < 1117916151 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :99 esoteric languages on the web, 99 esoteric languages. < 1117916178 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You look one up and code a song in it, 98 esoteric languages on the web. < 1117916185 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drink 99 bottles of beer and write a new... < 1117916194 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1117916202 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather 99 cans of jolt < 1117916220 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatively: stay up late, write a spec. 100 esolangs on the web. < 1117916229 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hello, 99 bottles of beer on the world!" < 1117916265 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno, make it an [[Esolang:Categorization]] page < 1117916276 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meta stuff should be in the Esolang namespace since mediawiki likes it that way < 1117916279 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1117916281 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: I don't think it is necessary to be THAT specific with the cats < 1117916294 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe.. yes.. < 1117916307 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that needs a quine! < 1117916319 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you missed a fourth type of tape, jix, the kind that loops around < 1117916326 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1117916327 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you count that as "no ends" < 1117916348 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the one that has one end end loops at the other end < 1117916352 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sugar high... Ugh. < 1117916361 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like fyb < 1117916366 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1117916369 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1117916372 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FuckYorBrane XD < 1117916375 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about a 99bob-based language < 1117916380 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1117916406 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A brainfuck translation with parts of the lyrics. < 1117916440 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the wall, go to the store all represent different operations. XD < 1117916453 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13 letters of "Hello, world!" on the wall, 13 letters of "Hello, world!" Take one down, pass it around, 12 letters of "Hello, world!" on the wall. < 1117916455 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CXI: yeah! it could have 99 commands. Each verse a different one < 1117916463 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1117916471 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol 99 commands < 1117916491 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you would need four lines of code to do the equivalent of a brainfuck > < 1117916525 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :99 commands in the spec. 99 commands. < 1117916529 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1117916687 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :write one down and pass it some arguments. 98 commands in the spec < 1117916800 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, i'm tempted to add a debugger or an assert command to this esolang of mine, but that would be cheating < 1117916857 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1117916863 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to write a language made entirely of asserts < 1117916886 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just brute-forces the input until it matches all your asserts and then returns it :P < 1117917138 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: i have to say, sortle's pretty neat < 1117917402 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CXI: hmm prolog? < 1117917444 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you write your own naive sort function in prolog it scales O(n!*n) < 1117917457 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the worst case < 1117917474 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hm, maybe "unimplemented" would be a better category than "implemented") < 1117917518 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need a language where i have a simple platform independent canvas i can draw to and get mouse events from < 1117917583 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non esoteric < 1117917651 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :python! < 1117917656 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :python/tk < 1117917667 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm ruby/tk.. but i don't know tk < 1117917691 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :big deal < 1117917704 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't know about ruby but python has a very good tk reference :) < 1117917729 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are ruby/tk tutorials and references < 1117917757 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then stop complaining :) < 1117917785 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't want to learn how to use tk just for a stupid canvas < 1117917975 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Categorization <- my first attempt < 1117917983 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, sorry for the delayed reaction but cool, i'm glad you like it < 1117918074 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: np... do you suspect that it (umm) "admits computation" or not? < 1117918125 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like that there is no strict requirement that esolangs be TC... it provides open research questions. < 1117918130 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aura is an interesting case < 1117918131 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too < 1117918215 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suspect that it admits computation, yes, although i haven't thought of a way to show this < 1117918341 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, do "lesser known programming languages" have to be a category? < 1117918361 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there are quite a few and I think they deserve one < 1117918386 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, everything's going to be in like ten categories < 1117918386 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you have a different thought you're welcome to expose it < 1117918411 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1117918428 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"turing tarpit" seems a problematic category < 1117918437 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ultimately I'd add an "esolang" category < 1117918443 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard to categorize < 1117918448 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a tarpit and what's not < 1117918459 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. Lazy K could be trivially made one instruction shorter < 1117918465 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by removing i < 1117918480 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it dosen't have "as few instructions as possible" < 1117918496 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: doesn't lazy k needs i for church integers ? < 1117918519 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: i can be represented with s and k < 1117918524 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1117918555 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you be represented with s and k? ;p < 1117918568 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lazy k? that sounds a lot like unlambda < 1117918570 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :```s`kk``s`kk < 1117918580 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no that's wrong) < 1117918589 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: how can you... < 1117918627 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CXI: but unlambda has unneeded commands with side effects < 1117918634 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lazy-k is side effect free < 1117918637 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so which came first? < 1117918645 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :combinatory logic came first ;) < 1117918656 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: i guess "purely functional" deserves a category < 1117918658 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that where s/k notation came from? < 1117918669 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CXI: unlambda came first < 1117918671 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: there's a "functional programming" cat now < 1117918675 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know much about functional programming < 1117918677 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CXI: yes < 1117918682 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pre-turing, iirc < 1117918687 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which blew my mind < 1117918691 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yes, and also "functional paradigm" :) < 1117918703 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :change that at will < 1117918709 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of those must die < 1117918717 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's a difference between functional and purely functional < 1117918724 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlambda is functional < 1117918734 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"functional paradigm" has 0 members now, it can die < 1117918737 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iota, jot, lazy k are purely functional < 1117918752 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: not a difference worth categorizing on, imo... or if it is, call it "referentially transparent" < 1117918756 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: sure < 1117918765 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: paradigm sounds better though :) < 1117918804 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if Thue has a different paradigm and if it's worth being included in any if so < 1117918834 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it does < 1117918851 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's even a name for it < 1117918860 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :string-rewriting < 1117918866 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :string-rewriting < 1117918868 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1117918883 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rewriting languages could be their own cat < 1117918890 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was tainted to include that but I was not sure as I've just said < 1117918892 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ignoring that any language can be described as a rewriting language :) < 1117918928 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at some point, for categorization, you just have to go on what the author probably intended... < 1117918943 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would malbolge go in "Unusable"? < 1117918951 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1117918961 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's categorizable yet... < 1117918975 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be category: unknown TC status < 1117918984 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a very important category imo < 1117918986 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think ben intended "hellishly difficult" rather than purely "unusable" :) < 1117918988 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's usable to some extent, but it's possible that as an FSA it has too few states < 1117919030 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: that's OK to me < 1117919046 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is anyone editing the Esolang:Categorization page? < 1117919058 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not i < 1117919088 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can turing tarpit be a subcategory of turing-complete? < 1117919181 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's tarpit mean, anyway? < 1117919191 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC it's a misspelling < 1117919209 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a pit full of tar, like LaBrea :) < 1117919210 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember the details nor where I read about that < 1117919217 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think tarpit is a useful category for esolangs < 1117919220 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most esolangs are small < 1117919221 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where all the dinos got stuck... < 1117919224 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1117919229 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what an actual tarpit means < 1117919241 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i propose to just keep turing-complete < 1117919244 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok :) < 1117919259 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a turing tarpit is just "arbitrarily low # of instructions" < 1117919268 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, okay < 1117919269 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some def'n of "instruction" < 1117919288 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: what do you think < 1117919314 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that it's useful to hold Turing tarpits as a [sub]category < 1117919341 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i definitely propose we invent a word for "turing-complete with memory constraint" < 1117919344 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that it's listed in the categorization list < 1117919347 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and use that as a category :) < 1117919358 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: that's FSA and is there < 1117919381 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but FSA sounds almost insulting < 1117919389 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1117919404 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck is listed as a turing tarpit < 1117919419 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :together with "Usable" it will be meaningful enough I think < 1117919439 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but most brainfuck specifications make it a FSA < 1117919446 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including the original one < 1117919455 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FSA? < 1117919463 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finite-state automaton < 1117919469 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1117919519 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not enough to be a FSA < 1117919528 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has to be "easy to extend" < 1117919554 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck, befunge, smetana can all be trivially extended to arbitrary size < 1117919618 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unbound FSA? < 1117919632 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not a sufficient condition either < 1117919649 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck without loops is a FSA, right? < 1117919679 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even FSA's can have loops... < 1117919693 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck without loops is, um... a tuple of integers? :) < 1117919699 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but a "turing-complete with memory constraint" language must have loops < 1117919708 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not all FSA qualify < 1117919727 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by loops i mean some way of making it not halt, at the very least) < 1117919730 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i would tend to agree, but (as i mentioned before) i can't find *anything* in the literature about it < 1117919761 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know your language is nowhere near TC when you can determine if a program halts with current computational resources :) < 1117919796 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and in befunge you can already write a program that won't ever halt or repeat state) < 1117919921 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about "brainfuck-complete" < 1117920012 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"brainfuck-complete with upper memory bound 80 cells" < 1117920023 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"brainfuck complete with arbitrary memory size" < 1117920070 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure that's a serious name :) < 1117920097 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how serious does it have to be? :) < 1117920154 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nice thing about it < 1117920164 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm somewhat puzzled... if an algorithm is required to stop, and a Turing machine is required to run an algorithm, and a SMETANA program can implement any algorithm... how come SMETANA is not Turing-complete? < 1117920169 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that if you say "BF-complete with upper memory bound 40" < 1117920185 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and everybdoy will know approximately what class of problem it can solve < 1117920220 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: semnta can't store an infinite number states.. some algorithm require infinite states < 1117920227 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: no < 1117920233 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok not < 1117920237 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: no algorithm requires infinite steps < 1117920248 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: unless it doesn't halt, in which case it doesn't matter what it requires < 1117920263 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any halting algorithm can be implemented in smetana. < 1117920270 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you come up with an algorithm that requires n steps, i can come up with one that requires n+1 < 1117920271 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you have to know memory requirements in advance. < 1117920288 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smetana is brainfuck complete :) < 1117920301 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's a point, lament < 1117920305 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw i'm going to use ruby/tk .. seems to be very simple < 1117920340 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: turing machine can do more than just algorithms, it seems < 1117920351 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turing machines can hang, algorithms can't < 1117920355 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's THE point: given an arbitrary algorithm, you can't know in advance how much memory it will take < 1117920379 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1117920403 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing with "BF-complete with upper memory bound n" is that it's the same as "FSA with upper state bound m" or "lookup table with x entries" < 1117920417 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where x >> m >> n, i imagine < 1117920442 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, maybe m > x actually < 1117920442 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, some FSAs can't compute certain things (e.g. Brainfuck without loops) < 1117920453 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1117920470 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: all bf-complete with upper bound languages are FSA < 1117920473 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they *can*, they just need more states < 1117920474 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: but the reverse is not true < 1117920490 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or am i wrong? < 1117920504 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does "bf-complete" mean? < 1117920518 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can compile brainfuck to this language. < 1117920528 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and run your program with memory size n. < 1117920557 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you are saying that: not all FSA are languages that can have brainfuck compiled into them? < 1117920572 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm, I think I'm getting cpressey's point < 1117920581 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i think so.. is that wrong? < 1117920584 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean brainfuck with finite tape? < 1117920588 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1117920597 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and finite cells) < 1117920600 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would consider "BF-complete with upper memory bound n" is more like linear-bounded automata, not a finite state automaton. < 1117920619 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, a FSA must always terminate (for finite input). < 1117920634 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hey!! < 1117920642 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's exactly what we were looking for < 1117920655 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so the claim is: exists F, F is an FSA that cannot be the result of translating a (finite-tape) brainfuck program to an FSA < 1117920658 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1117920665 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FSA must not always terminate < 1117920671 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh,m for finite input < 1117920672 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1117920689 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it's not just that < 1117920690 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1117920709 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it's that your language should be capable of expressing all the FSA corresponding to all the brainfuck programs with up to that memory size < 1117920750 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i'm sorry, that still sounds like "equivalent to an FSA" to me. < 1117920759 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1117920762 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what fizzie said. < 1117920765 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_bounded_automaton < 1117920795 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, i'd prefer if wiki articles did not link directly to user or talk pages < 1117920803 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as grammars go, linear-bounded automata (turing machine with a tape length limited to the input; what I would guess brainfuck-with-n-sized-memory) can recognize all context-sensitive grammars, IIRC. Type-1 grammars in the Chomsky hierarchy. < 1117920808 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so it is possible to mirror just the content, if anyone should later want to do that) < 1117920816 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :While finite state automata only recognize type-3 languages. < 1117920821 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LBA sounds a lot closer < 1117920834 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: but LBA seems to be equivalent to brainfuck complete :) < 1117920846 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but LBA is already coined as a term :) < 1117920848 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is strange < 1117920857 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would seem that LBA is a subclass of FSA < 1117920862 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only wish there was a ref on wp < 1117920863 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why aren't they? < 1117920871 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1117920888 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: should there be entries for people (instead of linking directly to user pages?) < 1117920891 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay anyway < 1117920892 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would they be? The grammars they can recognize are a superset of those FSA:s can. < 1117920906 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: they have a finite number of states. < 1117920908 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can (e.g._ fail to halt, you mean? < 1117920916 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, i suppose so < 1117920928 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway LBA should definitely be a category < 1117920952 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language i'm writing atm is a LBA < 1117920956 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want something more distinctive than just "turing-complete/not-turing-complete", why not use the chomsky hierarchy? < 1117920960 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and most of the stuff that's now in "Turing complete" should migrate to LBA... which is kindof sad :( < 1117920963 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, anyone want to see the perl script I use for Two Problems? < 1117920977 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I like that idea < 1117920985 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CXI: yes < 1117921012 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you implemented it in perl.. you should call it 3 problems.. < 1117921016 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1117921023 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LBA still seems not quite right... size of tape = function of input size. < 1117921034 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is compicated by the fact that many of these languages are interactive < 1117921050 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://members.dodo.com.au/~sgentle/2probs.pl < 1117921059 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, IO is supposedly irrelevant to turing-completeness < 1117921060 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, every language an FSA recognizes can easily be recognized by an LBA (so L(FSAs) is a subset of L(LBAs)), and there are languages that can't be recognized by a FSA but can with a LBA (so L(FSAs) is a _proper_ subset of L(LBAs)). < 1117921074 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1117921084 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should really fix that eye-bleedingly horrible bit < 1117921088 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irrelevant to computation, yes < 1117921092 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not to communication :) < 1117921097 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: but yeah, you're right < 1117921106 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who the heck uses computers for computations anymore? < 1117921109 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that can be a separate category < 1117921114 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1117921125 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus if you don't output anything your program is really easy to optimise < 1117921157 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CXI: not true < 1117921161 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CXI: because of the halting problem < 1117921198 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's "input" here? < 1117921204 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CXI: consider a program that tries to express every number as a sum of two primes < 1117921215 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you could call a halting program an optimisation of a non-halting program < 1117921218 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you're safe < 1117921219 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :starting with 4 and going up < 1117921230 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it finds one it can't express, it halts < 1117921237 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: syntax is 2probs.pl sourcefilename arguments < 1117921243 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go and optimize that, you'll win the fields prize and get a million dollars < 1117921248 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://members.dodo.com.au/~sgentle/99.2p if you missed it before < 1117921270 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prints numbers from 1 to 99 < 1117921284 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CXI: sorry, I'm postponing taking a look at your prog right now (will look at it later) < 1117921298 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also prints an error message that I've been too lazy to fix (this isn't really production-quality) :P < 1117921298 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but shit < 1117921302 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :input is a valid point < 1117921335 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah... i don't think so. < 1117921344 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could store all input in the body of the program :) < 1117921350 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right < 1117921355 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and disregard IO < 1117921358 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought the input question was about two problems < 1117921359 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my bad :) < 1117921389 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrt to IO there're three types of languages i think? < 1117921394 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :four < 1117921399 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no IO < 1117921402 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :output only < 1117921412 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-interactive IO < 1117921414 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interactive IO < 1117921444 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps the first three could be categories < 1117921454 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Swedish site sells custom badges... I'm thinking about ordering one with "hello world" in brainfuck XD < 1117921501 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah.. order "you are dumb" in bf.. if someone asks you what it means ... :D < 1117921521 0 :ZeroOne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what's that language called Version you've added to the language list? < 1117921565 0 :ZeroOne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's rather hard to find information about esoteric programming languages, let alone a language with that kind of name. I hope you've got its homepage address somewhere written down... < 1117921591 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: good idea. < 1117921620 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Need to find a program that generates brainfuck that outputs a certain string... < 1117921649 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sp3tt: do it manually .. generate delta values for the string and use multiplication to shorten the code < 1117921674 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, added IO capabilities categories < 1117921684 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZeroOne: http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/projects/version/doc/version.html < 1117921716 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True... < 1117921740 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a BF interpreter in python around here somewhere... < 1117921752 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1117921763 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do what I do, be lazy and generate output in binary instead < 1117921914 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a la http://bur.st/~comet/xmas.b < 1117921926 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yuck, /me merges lament's changes with his own ones < 1117922016 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NB: I preferred "cell-based" instead of "tape-based" because that way it can be applied to fungeoids et al, which in my opinion share the same idea < 1117922061 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1117922075 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i just overwrote your changes again < 1117922096 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there were any < 1117922098 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't overwrite someone's changes < 1117922108 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops, I'll merge again < 1117922113 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if someone has edited since you pulled up the edit form, it just gives you an edit form again < 1117922126 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1117922132 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what is pgimento 'merging'? < 1117922133 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program should output "Your brain is fucked" XD < 1117922136 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just didn't submit < 1117922137 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno < 1117922138 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1117922141 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1117922150 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just killed the entire turing-completeness class of categories < 1117922209 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did we decide on abolishing the Turing tarpits category or keeping it? < 1117922217 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i moved that one over < 1117922221 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we keep it, it could be a subcategory of Turing-complete, which might be good < 1117922224 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has nothing to do with computational complexity < 1117922237 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides most languages in it are probably not turing-complete :) < 1117922241 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we are keeping it, though? < 1117922242 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. brainfuck < 1117922250 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why have you removed the turing completeness? < 1117922251 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's the only category that actually has something in it < 1117922255 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bf is not turing-complete? < 1117922257 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brainfuck is Turing-complete with unbounded memory, and it is usually specified as such < 1117922265 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: i replaced it with "computational class" < 1117922266 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if the original implementation didn't do it that way < 1117922278 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: turing complete/linear bounded automata/finite state automata < 1117922288 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what we were just discussing for an hour < 1117922293 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's a renaming then :) < 1117922297 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1117922301 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much < 1117922312 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it does get rid of the amazing "usable" and "not usable" categories :) < 1117922315 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's pushdown automata between those two last ones, but I'm not sure there would be many languages in that one. < 1117922331 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thue is a LBA of course? < 1117922348 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1117922349 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's Turing-complete < 1117922352 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1117922353 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevermind < 1117922365 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably TC < 1117922378 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this classification called "Computational class"? < 1117922382 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or "Computational complexity" < 1117922392 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what should the category for languages of unknown class be named < 1117922414 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to utter "computational complexity" at one point, but I'm not quite sure now. < 1117922464 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had written: * Usable for writing programs // ** [[:Category:Usable]] // ** [[:Category:Unusable]] // ** [[:Category:Usability unknown]] < 1117922477 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Computational complexity" reminds perhaps too much of time/space-complexity, which is really a different issue. < 1117922491 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Category:Unknown computational class]]? < 1117922508 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usability is different from computational class < 1117922515 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds OK < 1117922519 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm not sure if it's a good category anyway < 1117922519 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, sorry < 1117922528 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who are we to decide what's usable :) < 1117922533 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just ask any sane person < 1117922539 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :none of the languages on the wiki are usable :) < 1117922546 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did connotation-mapping (read: googled for it) and came up with pages about P != NP, so perhaps the '-- class' is better. < 1117922556 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unusable is HQ9+ etc. < 1117922579 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :malbolge is usability unknown < 1117922591 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as is sortle < 1117922603 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's also reflected in its computational class < 1117922613 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. it's not an LBA < 1117922626 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The computational class for HQ9+ would be something even more restricted than FSA, wouldn't it? < 1117922628 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: how about "open research questions" or similar? < 1117922642 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's fine too < 1117922650 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you would have to specify each time < 1117922651 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly the question is < 1117922658 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there're different research questions < 1117922661 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i would imagine so < 1117922673 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: it's just a category < 1117922680 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HQ9+ has infinite states :) < 1117922798 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to recall some pushdown-automata-like language (single stack, no other real storage), but now I've forgotten it. How is befunge classified, btw? At least '93 has that 80x25 fixed size limit... < 1117922820 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: b93 = pda afaik < 1117922826 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no proof < 1117922830 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does LBA have to have arbitrarily big storage? < 1117922849 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lba tape size is a function of input size (according to wp) < 1117922857 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, um < 1117922857 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1117922859 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes < 1117922860 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitive maybe < 1117922860 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1117922868 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrm :( < 1117922875 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then LBA is not a very good description at all :( < 1117922891 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's not < 1117922903 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck. < 1117922906 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a brainfuck program can do something to an infinite input with only a finite tape < 1117922919 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"do something" = turn a's into b' or whatever < 1117922926 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1117922933 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's a good description as far as grammars recognizable by the language are considered, but it's perhaps not a very good measure for real-world things. < 1117922949 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck-complete then? :) < 1117922974 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heheheh BANCStar! i remember BANCStar (DIMLY...) < 1117923012 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you distinguish between a language like brainfuck that can turn all a's to b's < 1117923017 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a language that can't do anything else? :) < 1117923061 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as real-world uses are considered, most people want more than a "yes/no" answer from their programs, too, so Chomsky hierarchy (which is about the strings accepted by the program) probably isn't that good a category. < 1117923062 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: that appears to be an open research question :) < 1117923086 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yeah :( < 1117923097 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1117923102 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have to be fair to no-IO languages < 1117923108 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smetana, iota, jot < 1117923141 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've just made a few changes: moved Turing tarpits as a subcategory of Turing complete, added String-rewriting paradigm, and usability (Usable by default; otherwise [[Category:Unusable for programming]] and [[Category:Usability unknown]]) < 1117923173 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand why brainfuck is named brainfuck <.< < 1117923179 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn, boo-yah < 1117923184 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could cheat and classify as Turing-complete all languages that are "turing-complete if not a simple memory space restriction of K, the changing of which would not change the language semantics _that_ much", but that's horribly unexact. < 1117923185 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i ought to design and implement that someday < 1117923186 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps" usable for programming" is the best classification after all < 1117923205 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that's what i proposed < 1117923210 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: "brainfuck-complete" < 1117923235 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is actually pretty exact if you specify brainfuck cells to contain 8 bits or whatever < 1117923243 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still think it (somewhat uninterestingly) comes down to a compression problem < 1117923267 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a TM with a 1000-symbol tape is a FSM, but it is a much more compact representation < 1117923298 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, *why* it is a more compact representation - that is an interesting question < 1117923306 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no kidding < 1117923319 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every programmer seems to intuitively understand why, but where's the bloody formalism? < 1117923325 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not really a FSM. (There's the halting thing, for one -- it can do state transitions without consuming input.) < 1117923335 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, "FSM that might not halt" < 1117923341 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man < 1117923347 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these chomsky things are completely useless < 1117923348 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something close < 1117923353 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as are the original turing things < 1117923357 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of their notion of "input" < 1117923398 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigh. I can't even construct a simple loop in bf. < 1117923407 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sp3tt: +[] < 1117923411 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>++[<----->-]<. < 1117923428 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That should decrease the current memory cell with ten, right? < 1117923429 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link for BogusForth seems to be dead < 1117923443 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming the next memory cell was zero, apparently. < 1117923468 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay screw it, let's just keep "usable" :) < 1117923477 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have the category:usable itself be an "open research question" :) < 1117923479 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BF-complete was already used by Fraans Faase, btw < 1117923490 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there you go < 1117923491 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Fraans/Frans/ < 1117923495 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a natural way to classify things :) < 1117923528 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does brainf*ck specify any limitations to program length, btw? < 1117923534 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not in that sense I'm afraid < 1117923549 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I know, fizzie < 1117923553 0 :ZeroOne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should we have some Template:Stub like in Wikipedia? we could use one to mark articles that only have one sentence or so. < 1117923555 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: no < 1117923558 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befugne (93) would (probably) not be brainf*ck-complete, then. < 1117923568 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes. < 1117923576 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's still a crappy definition :) < 1117923593 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"brainfuck-complete with memory and code restriction" just doesn't sound very good < 1117923596 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZeroOne: looks like a good idea < 1117923631 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about HQ9+ complete :) < 1117923662 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not HQ9+, but have a list of problems that a language should be able to do < 1117923674 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only side effect is allowing a language that does nothing but those problems < 1117923675 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"code restriction" opens up a whole new can of worms < 1117923706 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but apart from that, it seems pretty good.. < 1117923709 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm much happier just leaving all the contentious stuff uncategorized, btw. < 1117923725 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will also give people things to do < 1117923740 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :implement the "qualification" programs in all the languages :) < 1117923789 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are our "qualification" programs? < 1117923795 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :99 bob? < 1117923799 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : definitely :) < 1117923818 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always write a befunge interpreter, but perhaps that's not a good idea. :p < 1117923818 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it qualify the language for? < 1117923835 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe "99bob-complete" < 1117923835 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :99 bob using substaction and looping < 1117923846 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, 99 is not a great program < 1117923851 0 :ZeroOne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: ok, here's the template in action: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Ale < 1117923854 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You probably can use an "approved by esowiki" stamp on the marketing brochures after that. < 1117923856 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some def'n of "subtract" and "loop" i suppose :) < 1117923865 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1117923891 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool, ZeroOne < 1117923892 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bunch of math problems... number factorization.. sorting.. < 1117923914 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :none of it is relevant mathematically speaking < 1117923945 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in real world terms, it means a lot when something like Chess was implemented in befunge < 1117923956 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, and will we specify for how large inputs do these qualification programs need to work? The befunge qsort is pretty limited, for example, since all the data must fit on the playfield. < 1117924001 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: TPK may be what you're looking for < 1117924015 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your (plural you) use of the "we" pronoun is contagious. < 1117924017 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cs.fit.edu/~ryan/compare/ < 1117924031 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think the stub template is a good idea < 1117924039 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes the site look messy and unfinished < 1117924049 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just let stubs be stubs and if someone cares they'll be expanded < 1117924056 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: note however that you can implement the actual algorithm in befunge < 1117924071 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, for example, in smetana < 1117924133 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue: the intention is to have a more or less detailed description of each language, not just a quick overview like now, right? < 1117924165 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's just that really < 1117924170 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not about the size of input < 1117924171 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but that'll happen when it happens < 1117924176 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about being able to write non-trivial code < 1117924178 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :making the pages look a mess isn't going to speed it along < 1117924217 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is there so little math in all of this :( < 1117924259 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graue but it would be good to create the sensation that the intention is detailed descriptions, and without the stub notice it seems like they're more or less complete < 1117924287 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like stub template < 1117924298 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, it's not necessary < 1117924299 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost everything is a stub now < 1117924305 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1117924314 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fairly clear that more info can be added < 1117924320 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but it would seem as if the intention is to have just short descriptions < 1117924325 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if no one does, well, we live < 1117924338 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider the following language: < 1117924339 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could add a note in the list < 1117924343 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's "seemingly turing-complete" < 1117924348 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has no interactive IO < 1117924350 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"longer descs wanted!" etc < 1117924356 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yes, that's another way < 1117924361 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when a program terminates, if the state is "hello world", it gets changed to "" < 1117924375 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this turing-complete? < 1117924397 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no matter what i do i can't get it to output hello world < 1117924428 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i've come across that before (actually ben did)... it seemed like a representation problem < 1117924437 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can output hello world in e.g. binary ascii < 1117924467 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it came up because ben thought the original wierd couldn't output ascii 0 < 1117924482 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which it could, but it still raised an interesting question < 1117924503 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say (eg) the alphabet of symbols you can write is a subset of those that you can read < 1117924510 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that turingmachine still tc? < 1117924520 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is < 1117924526 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd think so too < 1117924527 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because a turingmachine is always tc < 1117924534 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless the subset is like the null set or something) < 1117924536 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you only need 0 and 1 < 1117924574 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, which makes me wonder about judging turing tarpits based on # of symbols (they can all be encoded in e.g. unary even, if you ignore the problem of "telling where the program stops") < 1117924580 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, i officially give up and advocate to use "usable"/"unusable" < 1117924613 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1117924619 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tarpits are just small languages < 1117924632 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup < 1117924634 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually do they have to be small? < 1117924637 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: any file can be coded in unary < 1117924638 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought the requirement was < 1117924647 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"everything is possible, but nothing of interest is easy" < 1117924660 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the derivation < 1117924665 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1117924673 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the meaning is "a Turing-complete language with few symbols/instructions" < 1117924727 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, "turing tarpit" is not well defined < 1117924744 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can't be < 1117924763 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's nothing magical about tarpits vs non-tarpits < 1117924772 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more like a definition by enumeration of the currently accepted TTs < 1117924796 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1117924853 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: yes, the "problem" is "where does it stop?" (i'm not saying it's a "real" problem... just that it might be, depending on how you look at things) < 1117924871 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with the TC stuff is that everybody uses TC to mean "almost TC" < 1117924892 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nod < 1117924900 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: stop in what sense? I don't get you here; if you have a file you know where it stops, and if you have a binary number you also do < 1117924901 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg on the smallfuck page < 1117924905 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Like Brainfuck, Smallfuck is Turing-complete. Provided you have an implementation that can initialize memory cells arbitrarily before running the program and print out their content when the program ends, you can use Smallfuck to make any kind of calculation." < 1117924907 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err s/binary/unary/ < 1117924913 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, there's a bald claim to TC with no proof < 1117924939 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when smallfuck is explicitly defined to have some memory limit < 1117924941 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TC and implementations shouldn't mix < 1117924977 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: how do you know how it stops without having either a) a terminator symbol (which is not the same as your unary symbol) or b) a file size (which is stored how?) < 1117925020 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yeah, I agree about the terminator symbol; but translation to a file is made by storing the number with a '1' prepended < 1117925055 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. a one byte file is the digit 1 plus the 8 bits of the file < 1117925056 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: i don't quite follow - is '1' the file size? < 1117925067 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1117925068 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet i keep having a feeling there's SOME sort of math behind this :( < 1117925073 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but can you stor *that* in unary? < 1117925077 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: me too < 1117925081 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shrug < 1117925096 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :open research :) < 1117925130 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you can store in unary e.g. 257 which is 100000001, meaning the file with the ASCII character < 1117925230 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you need a terminator char if you use unary anyway < 1117925246 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ok - if you have a max file size (which all real filesystems do,) yes, i can see that < 1117925267 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why a max file size? < 1117925291 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, Brainfuck totally rocks, pwns, and is teh shit! < 1117925292 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's "the EOF problem" which also rises in compression theory < 1117925466 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgimeno: a max file size? well... all i meant was that in practice, you don't use bignums ;) < 1117925483 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sees an "esoFS" approaching on the horizon :) < 1117925488 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1117925490 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1117925501 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :++++++++++[>+++++++++<-] >-.>++[<+++++++++++>-]<.++++++.---.>++++++++[<---------->-]<--.>++++++++[<++++++++>-]<++.>++[<++++++++>-]<.>++[<-------->-]<-.++++++++.+++++.>++++++++[<---------->-]<++.>++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<+.>++[<+++++>-]<.>++++++++[<---------->-]<---.>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]<.>+++[<+++++>-]<.>++[<--------->-]<.++++++++.------.-.>++++++++[<-------->-]<---. < 1117925503 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w00t < 1117925523 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari was working in one for his shell < 1117925573 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That prints "Your brain is fucked!" < 1117925581 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol esoFS < 1117925594 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Esoteric filesystem? LOL < 1117925603 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chef-FS, imagine that. < 1117926190 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been thinking of writing up an Esoteric Software License for interpreters i write < 1117926209 0 :graue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :viral licenses have been done, but not polymorphic viruses! < 1117926237 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1117926791 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD A badge with green text on black background. < 1117926821 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the text is a brainfuck program that outputs "Your brain is fucked". < 1117927855 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night all. < 1117927882 0 :sp3tt!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]" < 1117928128 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a very long program. < 1117928131 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet it could be shorter. < 1117928248 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: perhaps program growth vs. problem complexity growth has something to do with it < 1117928259 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure what exactly those two would mean < 1117928279 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it = "turing-complete-likeness") < 1117928301 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah, "compression", asymptotically