00:00:26 -!- calamari_ has joined. 00:02:12 re's 00:12:54 -!- harkeyahh has joined. 00:18:36 CharServ STFU! 00:18:49 U r always on my case abotu something ChanServ 00:19:10 if you wanna serve me get me something to drink and then get down on your knees... 00:19:33 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:25:12 harkeyahh: did you package arrive safely to Mumbai? 00:25:17 *your 00:25:38 oh, yes it did i meant to change the topic 00:26:36 -!- harkeyahh has set topic: Another brainfuck site (http://www.bf-hacks.org/) is open! ~ http://chriscoyne.com/cfdg/ ~ Esolang wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ Thank you for your prayers my children. The package arrived safely into the arms of a 10,000 pound elephant.. 00:37:18 there has been confusion regarding turing-completeness of smallfuck 00:37:55 and the amount of available memory. 00:38:23 I made up my mind. Available memory is limited. Smallfuck is not turing-complete. 00:57:38 desafinado: on that topic, you might be interested in this: http://catseye.webhop.net/projects/sf2tab/src/sf2tab.c 00:57:46 it compiles smallfuck programs into lookup tables 01:05:35 hey that's cool 01:06:16 -!- heatsink has joined. 01:14:42 cpressey: hahaha 01:16:29 neat 02:40:02 -!- tokigun has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.3/20050414]"). 02:58:10 -!- malaprop has quit ("bounce"). 03:14:42 -!- desafinado has changed nick to lament. 04:24:16 I added pages to the esowiki on Archway and Qdeql 04:43:11 -!- calamari_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:02:18 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 05:39:15 -!- harkeyahh has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:14:59 -!- pgimeno has joined. 08:31:08 -!- graue has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:36:33 -!- tokigun has joined. 11:36:43 hello 11:38:37 i've submitted three beer song program to 99-bottles-of-beer.net; one of them is already uploaded. 11:38:38 http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-whirl-761.html 12:18:41 nice work, tokigun 12:19:23 ;) 12:24:03 I've voted it as top-geek 12:33:33 nice work tokigun :) 12:51:06 thanks ;) 13:18:13 -!- malaprop has joined. 13:28:18 -!- jix has joined. 15:50:39 -!- jix has quit ("Banned from network"). 17:46:48 -!- calamari_ has joined. 17:46:53 hi 18:42:46 -!- graue has joined. 18:52:48 hello 18:55:22 -!- comet_11 has joined. 18:55:37 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:55:56 -!- comet_11 has changed nick to CXI. 19:01:27 hi graue 19:08:33 -!- calamari_ has quit ("bbl"). 20:23:36 -!- graue has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:36:28 -!- calamari has joined. 20:49:10 -!- graue has joined. 21:32:19 regraue 21:32:37 hello 21:54:03 -!- jix has joined. 21:59:01 -!- jix has quit ("Banned from network"). 22:08:53 <{^Raven^}> hi 22:15:07 hi raven 22:15:41 <{^Raven^}> how's things? 22:16:21 better now that I've taken my math test :) 22:16:52 <{^Raven^}> :) 22:17:55 I'm considering writing an adventure game.. need to see if my idea is feasible though. Of course an extra 8k of data storage helps a lot :) 22:18:22 <{^Raven^}> just 2.8k is suficcient for a large game 22:18:55 depends on how much time you spend compressing things 22:19:26 nothing in the rules says not to use the data file, so why not? hehe 22:19:35 <{^Raven^}> I enjoy squeezing every last byte out of code. optimisation is fun 22:20:13 oh, don't get me wrong.. it's just that if I limit myself to 2.8, it's not going to be the same game as 2+8k 22:20:38 still only 2k of code.. the 8k is for data 22:22:17 I need to write a quick assembler, though, so that I can use a compressed source format.. 2929 bytes of standard asm source code won't get me much 22:23:06 <{^Raven^}> last year assembler games were accepted without source code 22:23:13 I think that source rule is silly, though.. it's the binary that matters.. actually a lot of the rules are silly, it's all for the fun of it, I suppose 22:23:32 oic.. that makes things considerably easier 22:25:04 with 2k of code, I could probably write a semi-generic engine 22:25:22 <{^Raven^}> once that fits your game perfectly 22:25:56 <{^Raven^}> if you want to follow the rules as posted then a zip of your engine + your data file has to be under 2.7Kb and that's pretty impossible 22:26:20 <{^Raven^}> the organiser has not thought about the rules, think of them as general guidelines 22:26:36 <{^Raven^}> and there should be an OR clause between rules one and two 22:27:01 it was funny how he called it RAM, that makes no sense in the context 22:27:13 <{^Raven^}> the source code limit is for games written in BASIC or interpreted languages 22:27:42 <{^Raven^}> the executable code limit is for compiled/assembled games 22:29:23 <{^Raven^}> yeah, it implies that a UPXd EXE (!) when decompressed must be within the 2.79Kb [sic] limit 22:29:34 I should e-mail him to see what the actual rules are 22:30:33 <{^Raven^}> people have tried this year and last year to clarify them but to no avail. Good Luck! 22:31:01 raven: I think it'd be pretty hard for him to verify how much ram is being used 22:31:48 pretty much impossible without disasseming the source, on game systems such as the atari 5200 22:32:39 <{^Raven^}> yeah. I'm still strying to get the whole concept of a 1024-2048 byte game competition that allows entries up to almost 3K in size 22:34:41 not 3K 22:34:42 a lot more 22:34:56 i mean come on 22:34:57 <{^Raven^}> i meant only for the game object 22:35:01 8k is for "data" 22:35:06 what the fuck is "data" 22:35:11 maybe my "data" is Python code 22:35:15 exactly 22:35:18 <{^Raven^}> non-executed code 22:35:26 define "executed", eh 22:35:26 <{^Raven^}> *oops, non-executed stuff 22:35:39 define non-executed 22:35:44 an interpreter doesn't execute anything, it just looks at "data" and decides what to do 22:35:47 right? 22:35:52 <{^Raven^}> everything is data 22:35:56 exactly 22:35:58 everything is data. 22:36:58 of course for an interactive fiction game 22:37:08 you probably need much more "real data" than code 22:37:29 it might be possible to fit Scott Adams' engnine in 2k 22:37:41 and any scott adams' game fits easily (zipped) in 8k data 22:37:47 <{^Raven^}> easily, you could do it in much less 22:38:00 (which is exactly what i was planning to do for the competition :)) 22:38:38 <{^Raven^}> Previously I used my own custom data compression code rather than relying on any external libraries 22:40:06 <{^Raven^}> For this I would prefer to do the same to keep the 'game' as self contained as possible (not saying that I won't though) 22:41:32 wisdom from the dunric file: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.video.classic/browse_thread/thread/5110daaa04a82c2c/0267f0dcc89cbaf5?q=rec.games.video.classic+dunric&rnum=8&hl=en#0267f0dcc89cbaf5 22:45:14 <{^Raven^}> Here is a "clarification" of the rules (at the bottom) http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.int-fiction/browse_frm/thread/68e352749cb768ff/cc85e00f30ff941d?q=dunric&rnum=6&hl=en#cc85e00f30ff941d 22:45:49 <{^Raven^}> if accepted as true it allows for some major abuse of the rules 22:46:15 ha 22:46:21 he says you can use "TADS, Adrift, etc" 22:46:24 which also means inform 22:46:34 ha 22:47:01 <{^Raven^}> for instance you could write a *huge* generic game engine without any size limitations (the interpreter) 22:47:27 <{^Raven^}> the code (game logic) would have to fit in 2.83Kb which would allow for a huge amount of logic 22:47:44 <{^Raven^}> and all data (strings etc) would go in the 8Kb data file 22:48:21 <{^Raven^}> IMHO that's what dunrics clarification allows and that goes against what I feel to be the spirit of the competition 22:48:55 TADS, Adrift, Inform ARE "huge, generic game engines" 22:49:00 and what's better, you don't have to write them yourself. 22:50:18 <{^Raven^}> but it means that you could really submit anything, you can compress the logic (code) to fit within 2.83Kb and not suffer from the EXE/UPX clause in rule one 22:51:35 basically the rules of the competition are kinda dumb :) 22:51:45 <{^Raven^}> completely and utterly 22:51:47 he should have restricted them waay more 22:52:11 <{^Raven^}> this needs to be sorted out, the rules need to be revised 22:54:08 <{^Raven^}> My entry from last year was fully self contained at 2,803 bytes of BBC BASIC, it even ran on a BBC 22:57:07 <{^Raven^}> He states that the absolute maximum source size is 2.83Kb and later adds 'give or take a few hundred bytes' and gives a new limit of 2.86Kb 22:57:41 <{^Raven^}> no-one, to my knowledge has ever understood what dunric's rules mean 22:59:12 including him, I'd imagine.. where would 2.83k come from? not exactly a common file size :) 23:00:54 <{^Raven^}> ~2.831Kb = 2899 bytes. Since when are there only 1000 bytes in a kilobyte? Any programmer (aside form dunric!) should know this. 23:01:43 <{^Raven^}> and 2.83Kb is waaaay outside the 1Kb to 2Kb remit of the contest 23:01:54 it doesn't matter tho, in the end :) 23:02:43 <{^Raven^}> not really, but knowing the original reason why the competition started makes it seem silly 23:04:38 hmm, if I don't have an external data file, I'd better think harder about compression. Maybe perl? :) 23:05:54 <{^Raven^}> #defining common operations as macros would allow a good degree of compression. 23:06:15 I'm think more along the lines of text compression 23:07:06 -!- CXI has changed nick to test. 23:07:10 -!- test has changed nick to CXI. 23:07:20 <{^Raven^}> hmmm, the main problem is the trade off between the space gained by compression and the code size required for decompression 23:08:11 <{^Raven^}> finding an optimal or beneficial balance is difficult but possible if you limit yourself to only 2.83Kb for the entire game 23:16:47 it is possible to decompress in very little code, depending on the compression used. For example, dictionary compression 23:35:00 -!- KarlMarx has joined. 23:41:20 I've e-mailed him.. hopefully I'll get a response since we used to hang out online all the time 23:44:53 <{^Raven^}> what have you asked? 23:45:33 I asked for clarifications, and also offered alternate rules that made sense to us 23:46:02 <{^Raven^}> hmmm...i am doing the same (but not sent yet) 23:46:25 let me paste the rules I suggested to see if you agree 23:46:30 <{^Raven^}> please 23:46:50 1) The size of the unzipped game file may be no larger than 2048 bytes in 23:46:51 size, whether source or binary in nature. The internal details or methods 23:46:51 used in the binary or source file are unimportant (feel free to use UPX 23:46:51 compression, platform tricks, etc), so long as the game file itself is no 23:46:51 more than 2048 bytes in size. 23:46:53 2) External game engines or language interpreters may be used to run the 23:46:55 game, so long as it can be verified that the engine or language employed was 23:46:57 written prior to the contest starting date. 23:47:15 .. That was it :) 23:48:43 <{^Raven^}> very well pu calamari 23:49:50 he relied already, basically ignoring the rule suggestions 23:49:54 replied rather 23:50:10 <{^Raven^}> I would have suggested that the original 2899 byte limit be allowed for this year only 23:50:23 Perhaps you can suggest that 23:50:53 why was the limit set at 2899 bytes? 23:51:04 no idea.. absolutely none 23:51:09 <{^Raven^}> IMHO it's an interesting story 23:51:34 maybe a certain auto-adventure generator saves files of that size? 23:51:50 with the external data file 23:52:06 maybe so 23:52:10 seems VERY far fetched 23:52:15 <{^Raven^}> It may not be 'entirely' true, but it fits the events surrounding the announcement of the original competition last year 23:52:47 <{^Raven^}> Each year in the interactive-fiction community there is a competition called IF-Comp 23:53:27 <{^Raven^}> Dunric submitted his game B-Venture to the 2004 IF-Comp 23:53:40 yeah, I heard he placed last? 23:53:57 <{^Raven^}> his entry was disqualified because it broke the 'entries must not have been previously released' rule 23:54:06 haha 23:54:30 that sux.. so he probably made his own contest in spite? 23:54:30 <{^Raven^}> he discussed this fervently (to understate reality) with the organisers and community at large 23:54:49 <{^Raven^}> and yes, in spite he made his own competition 23:55:06 you know what I think would be really neat 23:55:09 <{^Raven^}> in his competition there were no rules to disallow previously released games 23:55:12 a modular music studio, using Brainfuck programs 23:55:31 effects would be programs that read samples on stdin and produce samples on stdout 23:55:49 <{^Raven^}> And B-Venture was 2,700(ish) bytes long, so he set a max code limit which was a little larger 23:56:03 heh 23:56:14 <{^Raven^}> This was part of the reason why the first competition was ignored by the IF community 23:56:19 graue: go for it! 23:56:46 the other part of the reason is probably because the vast majority of the IF community couldn't care less about "old-school" crappy games which fit in a few K 23:56:50 <{^Raven^}> graue: very nice idea 23:56:59 you could even get fancy and have wave in, wave out bookends 23:57:12 I am not familiar with the use of the term 'bookend' in this context 23:57:26 sorry, my lack of vocabulary 23:58:24 the idea is that you'd give a regaular wav file, it'd be decoded and sent to the next filter, which would only be dealing with a raw file, then after the last filter you'd feed the raw into the last program and it'd becomes a playable wav again 23:58:28 <{^Raven^}> lament: it's not that miniature masterpieces in general are crap, coding small elegant programs with a apurpose is a lost art. The quality of the works of certain authors (not mentioning names here) does leave a lot to be desired 23:58:47 {^Raven^}: it's an art the IF community isn't terribly interested in. 23:59:03 they have their own art to worry about 23:59:25 calamari, I guess so, but I was thinking the environment executing the programs would do that sort of coding 23:59:27 lament: maybe not, but it is interesting, nonetheless 23:59:39 graue: oic, that'd make sense