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01:20:42 <ZeroOne> hmm
01:21:30 <ZeroOne> found a new page with lots of esolang interpreters/compilers: http://www.jaapan.de/en/myprg.php?page=progs2
01:22:04 <GregorR> I like how it's Japan-Germany-England :-P
01:23:06 <ZeroOne> this guy really seems to have a thing to Atari computers :p
01:31:50 <calamari> atari computers are cool.. I have an old 800xl :)
01:32:52 <calamari> of course the st < amiga 
01:45:06 <graue> yes
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03:48:21 <Phy> hi
03:50:11 <GregorR> Hoi
03:50:18 <Phy> hi\
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04:02:26 <calamari> well, so much for the constants page.. wrote a program to exhaustively find solutions :)
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04:03:21 <graue> cool
04:03:27 <graue> what'd you write it in? Brainfuck?
04:04:21 <graue> please share this program with us
04:07:27 <calamari> wrote it in java
04:08:09 <calamari> we need a file wiki with an html upload button :)
04:08:27 <GregorR> Such as, ohhhhhhhhhhhh, Giki? :P
04:08:36 <calamari> giki?
04:08:51 <GregorR> Ouch.
04:08:56 <GregorR> http://giki.sourceforge.net/
04:08:59 <calamari> oh yeah
04:09:03 <GregorR> Heheh
04:09:03 <calamari> I remember now.. hehe
04:09:06 <GregorR> I'm just being an idiot :-P
04:09:30 <calamari> I'
04:09:39 <calamari> m usually an idiot, so you're ahead of me ;)
04:11:08 <calamari> graue: can you show me how to upload the file to the wiki?
04:12:31 * calamari still wishes there could be in-wiki files.. it would be perfect for this situation
04:21:19 <calamari> I should have it generate the best non-wrapping version as well
04:39:39 <graue> as discussed before, the wiki isn't the best place for files
04:39:57 <graue> send it to me and I'll add it to svn... or, if you want, I can give you an svn account to add it yourself
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06:42:29 <Keymaker> here's a brainfuck related xmas card:
06:42:30 <Keymaker> http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/stuff/xmas.png
06:42:53 <Keymaker> i meant to post it here last Christmas, but probably forgot
06:43:14 <Keymaker> well, yesterday i fixed couple of pixels and saved it as png.. uploaded it some seconds ago
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09:19:40 <jix> t-online sucks!
09:20:07 <jix> moin
09:21:35 <jix> they dropped my dsl connection... my router tried to reconnect but nothing happened... i took a look in the logs.. something with authentification errors and session limits... :(
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09:23:08 <pgimeno> that sucks, jix
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09:24:27 <graue> jix, is 0.2 still the latest version of cipple?
09:26:50 <jix> graue: yes
09:29:57 <graue> can you add some sort of license to the beginning of it so I can copy it legally?
09:34:44 <jix> yes
09:41:36 <jix> http://www.harderweb.de/jix/cipple/cipple.c
09:47:02 <graue> cool, thanks
10:06:16 <jix> ok again.. is this correct? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Image:BF2Planar.png
10:07:42 <jix> it shows how to map 2 instruction into a 1 instruction box without wire crossing (and connection to the storage (the dashed liens)) and how to map instruction[instruction]instruction into a 1 instruction box (without wire crossing too)
10:10:27 <graue> do you have to have a line to the particular cell of storage you want?
10:11:49 <graue> I'm not really clear on what's being proved here, because I thought that the problem was, you need to have a planar state graph where all the storage is considered part of the state
10:12:29 <jix> storage part of the state?
10:12:47 -!- lindi- has joined.
10:12:49 <jix> part of the graph?
10:15:34 <jix> is this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-System) turing complete?
10:18:29 <jix> the rules just allow 1 symbol => N symbols but not N symbols => N Symbols with N symbols => N symbols it's like thue
10:19:47 <jix> it's Context-free so it's a pushdown-automaton
10:20:03 <graue> I'm not really the one to talk to about this theoretical stuff
10:29:26 <jix> braktif seems to be non-planar
10:31:39 <jix> it uses ^< and v> they cross
10:33:40 <jix> but i'm working on a braktif like non-wire-crossing cellular automaton
11:33:55 <jix> tape and the instructions * > and < are implemented
11:46:24 <jix> [ when current cell is false is implemented
12:02:25 <jix> i made a turing complete planar cellular automat 
12:03:28 <jix> oh a little error
12:13:37 <jix> fixed
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14:01:25 <GregorR> Good morning, people-who-are-not-in-my-time-zone-and-hence-it-is-not-morning-to.
14:03:07 <jix> moin GregorR 
14:04:23 <GregorR> Hoi :)
14:06:39 <puzzlet> good night
14:07:04 <jix> its 3pm here
14:07:46 <GregorR> lol
14:08:08 <GregorR> It's 6AM here.
14:08:28 <jix> sometimes 3pm is morning for me
14:08:38 <GregorR> XD
14:09:33 <jix> i made a planar turing complete cellular automat (using alpaca)
14:11:02 <jix> because brakif doesn't seems to be planar
14:12:06 <GregorR> Hmmmmmmm, why did I wake up?
14:12:11 <GregorR> *zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*
14:12:34 <GregorR> Oh right, work.
14:13:23 <jix> work?!
14:14:10 <GregorR> Gregor needs his $$$ :)
14:14:24 <jix> i need €€€
14:14:57 <jix> hmm i have €€€ and atm i don't need more
14:16:07 <GregorR> AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, THE NOT ENGLISH!
14:16:58 <jix> ?
14:18:36 <GregorR> "€€€" comes out as garbage to me.
14:18:46 <jix> €€€ is EuroEuroEuro
14:18:55 <jix> is your charset UTF-8?
14:18:55 <GregorR> WOW, I can't read a Euro.
14:19:05 <GregorR> I'm probably living in ASCII-land.
14:19:30 <jix> UTF-8 is ascii compatible
14:19:33 <GregorR> That's the AMERICAN Standard Code for Intellectual Interchange!  It's AMERICAN, which implicitly means better.  Like SUVs and killing innocent things.
14:20:51 <GregorR> Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway, time for me to go to work, see y'all later :)
14:21:22 <jix> later
15:24:34 <yrz> 15:16 < GregorR> "âB¬âB¬âB¬" comes out as garbage to me.
15:24:34 <yrz> 15:16 < jix> âB¬âB¬âB¬ is EuroEuroEuro
15:27:58 <jix> i'm using UTF-8
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15:56:32 <cpressey> jix: yes, L-systems are PDAs.
16:04:45 <jix> cpressey: they are Context-Free grammars => PDAs
16:04:59 <jix> cpressey: braktif isn't planar
16:06:39 <cpressey> jix: yes, i know
16:06:49 <cpressey> most interesting 2d ca's aren't
16:06:59 <jix> but i made a planar smallfuck interpreter using alpaca
16:07:06 <cpressey> although... possibly all are isomorphic to ones that are
16:07:18 <cpressey> through neighbourhood isomorphism
16:07:45 <cpressey> jix: can i see it?
16:07:50 <jix> yes
16:09:01 <jix> i'm uploading everything
16:12:25 <jix> i'm writing down a little smallfuck => plainfuck (PLanar brAINFUCK) converting guide
16:16:18 <jix> http://www.harderweb.de/jix/langs/alpaca/plainfuck/(guide.txt|plaunfuck.alp|test.pf) i hope i uploaded a working version
16:16:35 <jix> plainfuck.alp not plaunfuck.alp
16:17:30 <jix> it's planar because i'm only using < ^ v and > 
16:19:55 <cpressey> have you checked that the state diagram of each cell is also planar?
16:20:21 <cpressey> eek, look at the time
16:20:26 <cpressey> i have to leave for school now, sorry
16:20:30 <cpressey> cya later
16:20:49 <jix> cya
16:20:59 <jix> oh statediagram of each cell uhm
16:21:11 <jix> d'oh
16:21:40 <jix> but i have a brainfuck presentation that is planar (not a cellular automat)
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17:03:42 <GregorR> Do work ... or chat on #esoteric ...
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17:21:33 <jix> GregorR: has ork dynamic arrays?
17:28:49 <GregorR> I believe you could build your own, it has pointers.
17:29:12 <GregorR> I really need to make a release of ORK with Instantiate spelled right XD
17:32:04 <jix> *g*
17:39:21 <GregorR> Hmm, befunge.org doesn't like my public key any more >_>
17:39:50 <pgimeno> it was down a few hours ago
17:40:36 <GregorR> Have you checked out the BBCode plugin btw, pgimeno?
17:40:51 <pgimeno> nope, I'm going to
17:41:48 <GregorR> Hmm, looks like befunge.org will be back up on the 25th.
17:42:50 <GregorR> In the interim, http://www.codu.org/ork/ork-0.9.tar.bz2 (please download lightly, I have limited bandwidth :P)
17:43:01 <GregorR> Actually, they recently increased the bandwidth there, so it's no problem.
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18:00:33 <jix> huh?! my 99 bottles of beer is #1
18:01:20 <Keymaker> lazy k?
18:01:32 <jix> yes
18:01:36 <Keymaker> ah. good job
18:02:20 <jix> it's my 2nd functional programming language (the first one was haskell and i used it only for a day)
18:02:37 <jix> you really have to rethink how to do thinks with lambdas
18:02:49 <jix> hmm maybe i'm going to write lazy-k-basic
18:02:58 <jix> /away
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18:08:11 <calamari> hi
18:10:49 <Keymaker> hello
18:11:07 <Keymaker> how does that your brainfuck constant program work?
18:11:28 <Keymaker> i mean how does it calculate that stuff?
18:11:39 <calamari> keymaker: well, at first I tried to find a mathematical solution, but I'm not that good, so I took a more brute force approach
18:12:27 <calamari> keymaker: it takes all "equations" of the form w[>x<y]>z  from -14 to 14
18:12:48 <calamari> some things are immediately ruled out, for example w!=0 and x=0, or w!=0 andy=0
18:13:44 <calamari> it then decides what the answer is, by taking i from 1 to 255, (256*i - w) *y *x + z  ) mod 256
18:14:00 <calamari> there might not be a solution
18:14:15 <calamari> that'
18:14:24 <calamari> s from memory, so sorry if there are wrong details
18:15:30 <Keymaker> ok
18:18:35 <calamari> btw for there to be a solution (256*i-w)%y must be 0
18:18:54 <calamari> so if it completes the loop then there was no soln
18:19:20 <calamari> of course if w,x,y,z < 0 I add 256 
18:19:32 <calamari> that's pretty much it, I think
18:23:10 <calamari> hmm... now that I think of it, that form w[>x<y]>z might not always be the most efficient for the non-wrapping versions
18:34:45 <calamari> this should cover it v[>w[>x<-]>y<<-]>>z
18:38:17 <calamari> nope.. hehe
18:38:37 <calamari> no reason it has to be -.. could be --
18:39:50 <calamari> so t[>u[>v<w]>x<<y]>>z .. yay
18:41:17 <calamari> w, y (- {-1, -2, -4, -8}
18:42:23 <calamari> maybe not.. perhaps for some t, there could be y=-3 so that it completes evenly
18:43:03 <calamari> not quite as easy as the wrapping solutions :)
18:45:40 <calamari> actually ..no my original form is better, because t=4, y=-2 is the same as t=2,y=-1, but less efficient
18:46:00 <calamari> so I think I can assume y=-1 is the optimal solution
18:52:27 <lament> i think this problem is a lot more complex than you think it is.
18:53:10 <calamari> lament: possibly.. can you point out something that I've missed?
18:53:14 <lament> no.
18:53:18 <calamari> here are my current set of combo:
18:54:34 <lament> of course it's possible to do a complete bruteforce.
18:55:28 <calamari> z, v[>w<-]>, v[>w<-]>z, v[>w[>x<-]<-]>>, v[>w[>x<-]<-]>>z, v[>w[>x<-]>y<<-]>>, v[>w[>x<-]>y<<-]>>z
18:56:34 <calamari> I'm only looking for answers in 0-255, so anything that might be required to generate larger answer efficiently doesn't need to be considered
18:58:38 <calamari> v,w,x,y,z (- {0,...,14}
18:59:23 <calamari> anyhow.. I'll code that up later on and see what kinds of answers I get
19:03:31 <calamari> it's possible that I'll need another nested multiplication.. not sure if it helps or not
19:09:33 <calamari> afk
19:12:26 <calamari> do you think it would help to have v,w,x,y,z greater than 14?
19:12:38 <calamari> somehow I don't think so
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19:42:36 <calamari> the wiki doesn't seem to allow me to upload images.. or am I just missing how to do it?
19:55:38 <lament> hehehehe
19:55:46 <lament> i wrote a brute-force solution program
19:55:55 <lament> probably will take a few hundred years to run....
19:56:35 <calamari> ;)
19:57:12 * lament times it
19:57:15 <calamari> I'm not at home, but I can write the above program later.. should not take too long
19:57:37 <calamari> have fun copy/pasting the solutions in :)
19:58:18 <lament> my program analyzes 100,000 BF programs a minute...
19:58:20 <calamari> should write a merging program while that one is running ;)
19:58:24 <lament> of course, i could rewrite it in C
19:58:59 <lament> damn
19:59:20 <lament> it will take 70,000 years to run, not "a few hundred" :(
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19:59:36 <lament> still this is very possible to do
19:59:39 <lament> in theory
19:59:45 <lament> with currently available computational resources
20:00:16 <Keymaker> only 70,000? what's the hurry? ;)
20:01:21 <lament> I could probably solve this in a year by attaching it to a virus and infecting 70,000 windows machines.
20:01:27 <BigZaphod> calamari: I've had no problem uploading an image to the wiki for Taxi.  I used this page: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Special:Upload
20:08:01 <calamari> zaphod: thanks :)
20:08:51 <calamari> lament: are these random bf programs?
20:14:33 <Keymaker> lament: haha
20:15:21 <lament> calamari: no, i'm doing them in order
20:17:06 <calamari> lament: order?
20:17:11 <calamari> what order? :)
20:17:41 <lament> well, each bf program is a number in base 6
20:17:48 <lament> (6, since "," and "." are never used)
20:17:52 <calamari> halting problem?
20:18:23 <lament> i stop the machine after 10000 steps
20:18:31 <calamari> should have checked for the smallest quine while you're at it ;)
20:18:33 <lament> and i should probably decrease that number dramatically
21:14:06 <{^Raven^}> calamari: the x[>x<x]>x solutions are wrong, they should be x[>x<x]>x< to leave the pointer at the same cell as the x[>x<x] solutions
21:15:36 <calamari> raven: I thought I had the non >x solutions still do >.. did I forget ?
21:16:27 * calamari checks.. nope
21:16:43 <calamari> raven: the pointer will end up at the desired number
21:16:53 <{^Raven^}> calamari: yeah, x[>x<x] exits with pointer at cell 0 and value in cell 1 in the x[>x<x]>x case both pointer and value are in cell 1
21:17:14 <calamari> raven: where is x[>x<x] on the page.. please show me
21:18:44 <calamari> for example ++++[>+++++<-]> (15, 2)   (20 section)
21:18:51 <calamari> this leaves the cell in 1
21:19:05 <calamari> err pointer in cell 1 :)
21:19:37 <calamari> so I must be totally misunderstanding your objection :)
21:19:48 <{^Raven^}> ahh, it's out of date
21:19:57 <{^Raven^}> didn't see the recent update
21:20:13 <calamari> one thing tho.. I should rearrange so that the answer ends up in cell 0
21:20:32 <calamari> that way 1 and 2 cell versions end up in the same place
21:21:43 <calamari> hmm, takes an extra byte for the leading >.. never mind ;)
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21:22:55 <calamari> uhoh, dbc left.. all is lost :)
21:23:47 <Keymaker> indeed :(
21:33:07 <GregorR> So.
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21:50:23 <calamari> sorry about that :(
21:50:36 <calamari> dangers of the middle mouse button in linux 
21:56:57 <GregorR> Heheh
21:57:04 <GregorR> Ahh, but middle-mouse-paste=good
21:57:24 <calamari> yeah I like it usually :)
21:58:16 <GregorR> (Middle mouse paste is also a rather popular meal to get in an American fast food restaurant, though they don't usually call it that)
22:14:06 <calamari>                                                                                                                              
22:14:14 <calamari> heh
22:18:07 <Keymaker> i don't get the joke
22:18:23 <Keymaker> :)
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22:25:37 <GregorR> Keymaker: Fast food = bad, mouse paste = probably not too healthy (mouse paste as in paste made from mice)
22:28:38 <Keymaker> ah..
22:28:53 * Keymaker pretends understanding usaian humour
22:29:08 <Keymaker> :)
22:29:11 * GregorR eats some mouse paste.
22:29:39 <Keymaker> hmm, what's wrong with fast food? i thought you americans love it
22:30:15 <GregorR> There's something horribly wrong with Americans.
22:30:35 <Keymaker> :)
22:30:42 <jix> hmm anyone ever thought about writing an irc bot in.. BRAINFUCK?
22:30:49 <Keymaker> nope
22:30:54 <calamari> mm.. now I want some Taco Bell :)
22:30:54 <Keymaker> but that could be nice
22:30:56 <jix> Keymaker: wrong
22:31:03 <jix> me did (3 mins ago)
22:31:11 <calamari> jox: thought about it, yes.. did it: no :)
22:31:17 <Keymaker> yes
22:31:19 -!- jix has changed nick to jox.
22:31:20 <calamari> err jix, sorry :)
22:31:28 <jox> ok
22:31:31 -!- jox has changed nick to jix.
22:31:38 -!- Keymaker has changed nick to jox.
22:31:43 -!- GregorR has changed nick to Keymaker.
22:31:48 <jox> lol
22:31:50 <jox> who am i?
22:31:55 <Keymaker> lol
22:31:57 -!- jox has changed nick to GregorR.
22:32:07 <jix> ahh stop it!
22:32:14 <GregorR> :)
22:32:27 -!- GregorR has quit (Nick collision from services.).
22:32:31 <calamari> lol
22:32:31 <Keymaker> :)
22:32:51 -!- Keymaker has changed nick to GregorR.
22:33:05 <GregorR> That was mean
22:33:28 <jix> who is calling me at 11:34pm?!
22:33:33 <GregorR> Keymaker is scratching his head right now I'll bet 8-D
22:34:14 <jix> irc bot in brainfuck is hard
22:34:37 <calamari> shouldn't be that hard
22:34:37 <GregorR> I'll bet.
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22:34:45 <calamari> write it in bfbasic 
22:34:46 <GregorR> HI KEYMAKER!
22:34:46 <Kmkr> darn nick collision
22:34:51 <GregorR> XD
22:34:54 <jix> lol
22:34:59 <Kmkr> hello :9
22:34:59 <jix> calamari: that's too easy
22:35:12 <calamari> see?  not hard :)
22:35:42 <jix> calamari: but i want to write it in pure hand optimized brainfuck
22:35:58 <GregorR> Sometimes I want to write a BF backend for GCC.
22:36:09 <GregorR> But then I put away the cocaine and that feeling goes away.
22:36:36 <Kmkr> jix: then WRITE IT
22:36:38 <Kmkr> :p
22:36:46 <calamari> somebody needs to send Gregor some coke
22:36:46 <jix> Kmkr: i'm going to WRITE IT
22:36:52 <Kmkr> OK
22:37:00 <Kmkr> mmmh coke..
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22:37:30 <{^Raven^}> GregorR: a brainfuck backend for SmallC might be simpler and less complex
22:37:30 <calamari> Gregor: do you know how to write backends for gcc?  I tried figuring it out once and it was too complicated for me
22:38:10 <jix> calamari: front-ends are easier
22:38:21 <Keymaker> jix: how would that kind of irc bot work?
22:38:31 <jix> Keymaker: stdin and stdout
22:38:41 <Keymaker> would you need to have some brainfuck interpreter on channel or something?
22:38:41 <calamari> I was hoping to have access to some pseudo-asm language that I would then generate bf for
22:39:21 <calamari> I wrote a bf bot.. in java though ;)
22:39:27 <Keymaker> :)
22:39:38 <jix> Keymaker: no i implement the irc protocol in brainfuck pipe stdin and stdout to a socket and POW 
22:39:55 <Keymaker> and that means? :)
22:40:08 <calamari> you could pass the port i/o to the bf interpreter
22:40:11 <Keymaker> well, i don't understand about these network things anyways
22:40:24 <calamari> then you'd just have to interpret the server commands.. not really a big deal
22:40:26 <Keymaker> good luck with the program
22:40:41 <calamari> jix: what you said :)
22:41:15 <jix> calamari: the only thing i don't like is answering pings.. but freenode is very pong-tolerant
22:41:47 <calamari> yeah, I don't think I ever figured out how to answer those 100% reliably
22:42:02 <{^Raven^}> calamari: how about compiling to your BDASM or BFBASIC?
22:42:22 <calamari> either one would work
22:42:32 <jix> nah.. i'm not that good in brainfuck
22:42:47 <calamari> the thing that stopped me was that I didn't know if there was some kind of intermediate language, and what that language was
22:43:05 <jix> but.. i have to write this bot in brainfuck
22:43:19 <GregorR> Darn phone calls, how am I supposed to do no work when the phone rings.
22:43:41 <calamari> okay.. Taco Bell beckons.. cya all :)
22:43:43 <jix> GregorR: Most phones have a mute switch...
22:43:46 <{^Raven^}> calamari: N stage compilation is still compilation and your two languages seem good midpoints
22:44:08 <{^Raven^}> jix: that means string handing in brainfuck....have fun
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22:44:24 <jix> {^Raven^}: yeah.. i'm going to use.. another esolang
22:44:32 <jix> a more string friendly one
22:44:43 <GregorR> Such as ORK XD
22:45:04 <GregorR> Get a niiiice, 20MB IRC bot with minimal functionality.
22:45:56 <{^Raven^}> I've thought that using a hash function might be suitable. it should beat the if..then...else block from hell
22:46:33 <jix> Malbolge irc bot MUHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
22:46:51 * GregorR 's head explodes.
22:47:38 <jix> my head can't explode.. just implode (vacuum..)
23:12:50 <Keymaker> :D
23:13:07 <jix> i need a fast befunge debugger
23:16:07 <Keymaker> and i think i'll need some sleep.. zZZzz..
23:16:11 <Keymaker> good nite
23:16:16 <jix> good nite Keymaker 
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