00:00:23 i think i'll go. nite 00:00:29 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 00:29:22 -!- vbnz has joined. 00:34:11 -!- vbnz has quit ("*monkey grin*"). 00:39:59 i'm insane... 00:40:11 did ?z x y.x (z x y) => (S (K (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I))))) (S (S (K S) (S (K (S (K S))) (S (K (S (K K))) (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K I))))) (K (K I))) 00:40:13 BY HAND! 00:41:06 took about 40mins 00:41:31 and i have a program that does it in less than a 1/24 sec 00:42:44 (if anyone tells you something he saw took less than 1/(>24) second he lies) 00:46:06 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:46:50 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 00:52:32 but i'm getting faster 00:52:32 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:52:43 and i don't need the translation table anymore 00:55:08 did (?x y z.x z y) => (S (S (K S) (S (K K) (S (K S) (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K I))))) (K (S (K K) I))) in 10 mins 01:11:08 Y => (S (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K (S I I))) (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K (S I I)))) 01:28:34 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 01:55:19 -!- vbnz has joined. 01:55:48 -!- vbnz has quit (SendQ exceeded). 01:55:49 -!- vbnz has joined. 02:02:43 -!- ZeroOne_ has joined. 02:04:58 -!- ZeroOne has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:04:58 -!- cmeme has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:05:23 -!- cmeme has joined. 02:10:07 -!- ZeroOne has joined. 02:14:26 -!- int-e has joined. 02:17:58 -!- ZeroOne has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 02:45:22 -!- vbnz has quit (SendQ exceeded). 02:45:22 -!- vbnz has joined. 03:26:52 -!- heatsink has joined. 03:28:54 -!- vbnz has quit ("Eject! Eject! Eject!"). 03:40:25 -!- calamari has joined. 03:41:50 hi 03:43:42 hi 03:44:01 hi 03:46:30 ho 03:46:49 hi 03:48:00 he 03:48:32 ha 03:49:36 pi 03:49:36 ng 03:49:38 po 03:49:40 ng 03:49:59 no 03:52:08 trying to decide what my webpage generator markup will look like 03:52:54 ++[+>-]<< Some text here >>[+<-]-- 03:58:15 will it look like html? 03:59:35 that might get too confusing :) 03:59:53 although maybe I should check out xml 05:27:48 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 05:42:56 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:43:03 -!- fizzie has joined. 05:51:13 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 06:43:53 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:00:03 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:04:00 -!- pgimeno has joined. 09:21:59 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:22:29 -!- fizzie has joined. 09:25:38 -!- fizzie has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:47:29 -!- fizzie has joined. 10:04:53 -!- kipple__ has joined. 11:30:40 -!- jix has joined. 11:48:07 -!- kipple__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:45:21 -!- Keymaker has joined. 13:45:31 hello 13:46:32 i got an idea for esoteric language 13:47:22 although, i got the idea long time ago 13:49:42 tell us! 13:49:52 well, haven't thought it much after that either 13:49:57 it needs more planning 13:49:58 S I is equivalent to (S (K (S I)) (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K I))) 13:51:01 anyways, 13:51:12 the language is based on weather reports 13:51:29 and programs look like some strange weather reports 13:51:33 it's annoying to type 13:51:35 i can't explain 13:51:56 * Keymaker throws keyboard through window 13:52:29 you can't type now 13:52:39 that was stupid 13:53:44 yes 13:54:16 i'm somehow strangely frustrated today.. i hate computers today.. rgghhhh 13:54:28 or well, i've never liked the actual machinery 13:57:42 is (S (S (K S) (S (K K) (S (K S) (S (K K) I)))) (K (S (S (K S) (S (K K) I)) (K I)))) 13:57:51 of course done by hand 14:23:30 i finally got around updating trigger homepage; http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/trigger/trigger.html .. 14:23:47 i added new version of 99bob and a char2bin converter 14:23:55 (and hello world..) 14:29:27 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:46:31 -!- int-e has joined. 15:36:20 -!- fungebob has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:53:50 -!- jix has joined. 16:34:32 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:49:44 -!- pgimeno has joined. 17:06:54 well, felt asleep for two and a half hours.. glad nothing happened here :) 17:07:41 i should sleep longer at night time.. 17:08:54 -!- ineiros has joined. 17:17:16 Keymaker: nooooo don't sleep at night time.. everyone else sleeps at night time.. so you don't have to. 17:17:33 :) 17:18:32 at school time i often fall asleep for an hour.. sometimes after school sometimes IN school 17:18:43 :D 17:18:59 math lessens are boring.. 17:19:29 well, everything's boring. except philosophy :) 17:19:33 (that i don't have anymore) 17:19:48 no math isn't boring.. only math lessons in school 17:19:58 glad there's only about six months of this current school left.. 17:19:59 yes 17:20:07 i'm talking about lessons too 17:20:12 oh 17:20:17 hmm music isn't boring 17:20:23 don't have that 17:20:58 "gemeinschaftskunde" isn't that boring 17:21:01 sometimes 17:23:08 np: Flogging Molly - queen annes revenge [ Within a mile of home ] 17:23:14 i love that song 17:23:26 never heard that 17:23:31 what kind of music is it? 17:23:49 huh... well what kind of music flogging molly... 17:24:01 electronic..? 17:24:05 no 17:24:07 ah 17:24:14 well, never mind then :p 17:24:50 by the way, as a german you probably hear a lot of germantechno and -trance there? 17:26:23 no 17:26:34 i don't like techno/trance 17:27:05 i hear german punk 17:27:40 ok 17:29:12 hmm iTunes says it's Folk/Punk (Flogging molly).. that fits.. but you have to hear it to know what it is 17:29:29 ok 17:32:29 and they use a lot of instruments that arn't often used for punk...Banjo, Bodhran, Spoons, Fiddle, Tin Whistle, Uilleann Pipes,Accordion, Concertina,Mandolin, Banjo, Bazouki, Mandola 17:32:45 :) 17:32:45 i don't even know all of them 17:33:48 -!- ineiros has quit ("leaving"). 17:34:13 * jix is installing latex on his machine 17:35:52 on some webpage there was "If you see the nick latex^queen on irc do you think of typesetting?" and i thought yes of course?! then i realized that latex^queen may have nothing to do with LaTeX 17:36:15 :) 17:36:47 i hope it has nothing to do with LaTeX x) 17:45:22 -!- pgimeno has changed nick to latex^queen. 17:45:29 :) 17:45:45 well, must go. bll 17:45:47 *bbl 17:45:49 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 17:46:04 some time ago it was harder to find LaTeX-related references on google 17:47:02 you had to add 'tex' and hope that keyword was present in the pages you wanted to find 17:47:52 * latex^queen is trying to find an HTML to TeX converter 17:48:15 to LaTeX even 17:48:58 html2latex is one. :p 17:49:10 html2latex.sourceforge.net and all that. 17:49:13 there's little written in non-esoteric languages 17:50:00 I'm trying to install that one but it fails on 'make test' 17:51:41 maybe I finally stick to sed + manual conversion 17:54:17 -!- latex^queen has changed nick to pgimeno. 18:19:24 heh, nice paradox: Frans Faase has written a converter in a non-esoteric language 18:22:06 "'make test' failed in 0.9, which could be a major headache for some people." 18:22:09 Heh. 18:23:07 I've tried 1.1 18:23:17 well, not sure the version of HTML::Latex 18:23:21 -!- calamari has joined. 18:23:26 hi 18:23:57 it's giving me a strange warning: 'comparison is always true' because it compares if an unsigned char is <= 255 18:23:59 hi calamari 18:24:26 strange in the sense that why should that be a warning (without -Wall at least) 18:26:05 and there may be architectures where MAX_UCHAR > 255 18:26:32 or am I wrong here? I'm no expert in the C89 standard 18:27:10 well, it's still unlikely that you want a non-effective comparison in your code ... I think it's ok to warn about that. 18:29:55 I agree for -Wall, I just think this one is a bit... insignificant? for it to be active by default 18:37:12 Hmm, I disagree that it's insignificant, but there seems to be no way to turn this warning off (except by disabling all warnings) - at least in gcc 3.4.2, which is bad. 18:37:39 s/2,/ -/ 18:38:55 hmm.. just thought of a bit-variant.. wonder how close to TC it is 18:39:39 commands: > = [>], @ = invert bit, if 1->0, then invert next bit (etc) 18:40:38 example of @: 18:40:51 s = 0 0 0 0 0 18:40:56 @ = 1 0 0 0 0 18:41:04 @ = 0 1 0 0 0 18:41:11 @ = 1 1 0 0 0 18:41:18 @ = 0 0 1 0 0 18:41:21 (etc) 18:41:52 @ is basically [>]+<[-<]> if the cell to the left of the pointer is 0. 18:43:49 hmm. but you need loops, too. and probably a way to move the pointer left. 18:44:11 I was thinking that the pointer would never need to move left 18:44:24 but maybe that's wrong 18:46:48 I'm pretty sure that's wrong. right now you can model your machine as a single register machine with an increment (@) and a strange operation that divides by 2 repeatedly as long as the register's contents is odd. 18:48:48 hmm.. > seems redundant, since @ is enough to eventually build any state 18:49:04 so yeah, need something else 18:49:11 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:49:50 another thing to note is that all bits to the left of the pointer are 1 - and can not be accessed any more. 18:50:04 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 18:51:47 I wonder if adding < is enough 18:52:29 so now all cells can be accessed 18:53:04 maybe not enough for computation, tho.. :) 18:58:02 bbl 18:58:04 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 20:40:14 -!- prf has joined. 20:58:57 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:00:02 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 21:31:32 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:32:15 -!- CXI has joined. 21:55:51 -!- kipple__ has joined. 21:57:00 -!- pgimeno has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:57:31 -!- pgimeno has joined. 22:04:15 -!- calamari has joined. 22:43:55 -!- Keymaker has joined. 22:47:07 hm 22:48:16 talking about jumping/loops.. is it necessary for a turing-complete language to have more than one loop? 22:48:56 you mean that a program cannot have more than one loop? 22:49:08 yeah 22:49:14 -!- kipple__ has changed nick to kipple. 22:49:16 what's a loop? :) 22:49:36 loop? 22:49:51 i thought it was something like while stuff in c 22:49:58 or [ ] in brainfuck 22:50:00 a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop a loop 22:50:05 he's just joking with you 22:50:09 ah 22:50:27 well, i partly guessed.. 22:50:28 interesting question 22:50:39 yah 22:50:46 that depends on the concepts employed 22:51:07 if you have some infinite program storage and a way to modify it, loops may not be necessary 22:51:24 at all? 22:51:30 if you have high level operations like 'execute my data on a turing machine' you also don't need loops 22:51:43 :) 22:52:23 but normally I'd consider loops (or an equivalent concept like recursion) to be necessary. 22:52:41 ok 22:52:54 not that i've planned anything, just thought.. 22:53:44 I think there are some esolangs where there is only one loop, but I can't remember which 22:54:07 ok 22:54:23 better check wiki :) 22:54:27 seem to remember something about every program being looped until some condition occurs 22:56:05 Keymaker (re: at all?): if you can append to your program faster than you execute it, this could work. 22:56:06 but couldn't it be done through self-modification? 22:56:52 I think we're onto the same idea int-e :) 22:58:14 seems that smith has no loops 22:58:17 (esowiki) 22:58:40 yeah, that's the one 22:58:50 ok :) 22:59:17 but, of course, the code copying is pretty much like a loop 22:59:44 yeah 23:01:33 it's amazing how many languages cpressey has made up 23:04:16 Keymaker: is Trigger your lang? 23:04:26 yes, partly 23:04:38 there is no article for it in the wiki 23:04:42 yeah 23:04:43 (hint, hint) 23:04:44 check out 23:05:01 http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/trigger/trigger.html 23:05:25 i tried once making an article about it to esowiki, but couldn't make it clear enough 23:05:53 a stub with a link to that web page would be better than nothing at least :) 23:06:02 well, i'll do that 23:06:25 kipple: have you tried trigger yet? 23:06:31 nope 23:06:39 ok 23:06:43 looked a bit a udage, but the spec was hard to read 23:06:49 but I like the concept 23:07:09 yes, as you can see from the spec i got the idea from udage 23:07:16 yes 23:07:25 hard to read? 23:07:27 what? only 256 bits memory :D 23:07:33 yah 23:07:37 i wanted a limited language 23:07:42 i'm sick of those turing tarpits 23:07:45 :p 23:09:01 anyways, i couldn't make the spec any more clear :9 23:09:30 I think a short list of the commands would be nice 23:09:38 i think i have them 23:09:46 there are no commands, you see 23:09:51 yes there are 23:09:57 it's all about patterns that are commands :9 23:10:25 patterns of same character 23:10:41 and in jump case two same characters and an argument character, like rr* 23:10:42 something like this: 23:10:43 * NOT 23:10:43 ** jump 23:10:43 *** print 23:10:43 etc... 23:10:49 ah 23:10:56 that i can do to esowiki article 23:12:07 hey! it's non-deterministic as well :) at least partlly 23:12:16 yeah 23:12:33 or maybe not... 23:12:42 it's in jump case 23:12:55 or well, don't know is non-deterministic right word 23:13:02 yes. but since you can avoid it, I guess it would qualify as deterministic 23:13:03 i'm confused of all random, non-deterministic etc.. 23:13:31 but a nice way to include a random function 23:13:36 thanks 23:14:33 what do you mean by this: "Trigger uses UNIX new-line (dec 10)." 23:14:44 aren't newlines treated as variables too? 23:14:49 yes 23:14:52 but i meant that 23:15:00 three dec 10s in row prints a new-line 23:15:26 they are variables as well 23:15:43 so, on Windows three #10s would print #13#10 ? 23:15:57 no 23:16:07 at least i think so 23:16:53 if you'd like to make a windows new-line you would need 13 13 13 10 10 10 23:17:07 (as characters) 23:17:26 ok. but then I don't get what's the point with saying it uses UNIX new-line. 23:17:42 well, my writings often have no point 23:17:45 hehe 23:17:51 :) 23:17:52 . 23:17:52 . 23:17:53 . 23:17:56 :) 23:18:00 the same could be said about many esolangs :) 23:18:08 yes 23:18:34 anyways, the wiki now has 3 languages in the Non-textual category. We need more! 23:18:47 let's see.. 23:19:39 what non-textual really means? 23:19:42 the output? 23:19:45 the source 23:20:04 ok.. but then doesn't fugue have text sources? 23:20:14 no, at least not in theory 23:20:20 ok 23:20:49 though it has no implementation 23:20:57 i see 23:21:17 hmm.. non-textual langs are interesting 23:21:35 hehe. maybe I should make en interpreter for fugue that I can plug my guitar into :D 23:21:44 :D 23:22:06 I also find them interesting. especially since they are so rare 23:22:12 yes 23:22:18 and NULL is only barely non-textual 23:23:12 yes.. too bad i don't get the null.. i can't understand it 23:23:41 Keymaker: it works with prime-factors 23:24:15 i see that from wiki article but i don't still get it.. 23:25:22 i know how it works but i don't know how to program with it 23:25:43 :) if someone could make a program that prints 'A' and would explain it perhaps then i'd get it 23:25:58 int-e: converting lambda-terms to CL-terms by hand is fun 23:26:30 oh well.. 23:27:06 kipple: here's one idea for graphical 2d language 23:27:32 (typing..) 23:28:16 each pixel would have some rgb value, where r could be instruction, g some memory value, and b -- no idea 23:28:50 so, the memory program could use would be stored in the program itself 23:29:00 i mean the picture 23:29:08 naturally the values could be changed during execution 23:29:11 not bad 23:29:27 jix: you're weird. one of the first things I did was to write a tool for doing that. *g* 23:29:27 then you could see the picture chaning during execution 23:29:42 hehe, that kind of interpreter would be very neat! 23:30:09 how about that being the only kind of output :) 23:30:17 :) 23:30:35 would get quite hard to make any visible messages 23:30:45 rgb is to common for an esoteric language 23:31:00 well, i don't know any others 23:31:05 HLS 23:31:06 HSV 23:31:13 CMYK 23:31:15 both g and b could be values. then you could have instructions with two arguments 23:31:16 YIQ 23:31:17 YUV 23:31:35 but yes rgb is ok 23:31:36 and then you could easily modify pixels elsewhere 23:31:42 yes 23:31:45 ide 23:31:46 a 23:32:00 yeah, maybe g and b both being arguments is good, like you said kipple 23:32:08 there is a instruction-component pointer which says what is insturction (R G or B) 23:32:18 nice 23:32:23 i didn't get it 23:32:35 what is instruction-component? 23:32:41 if ICP == R red is instruction green is arg1 blue arg 2 23:32:58 if ICP == G green is instruction blue is.... 23:33:13 a 3D IP would do that 23:33:28 kipple: with 1 dimension limited to (1..3) 23:33:33 yes 23:33:44 you could of course add more 23:33:50 like alpha 23:33:51 hmm 23:34:03 and octarine 23:34:04 but alpha = 0 is stupid because it hides rg and b 23:34:11 ultra-violet 23:34:12 infra-red 23:34:18 int-e: octarine is a great idea! 23:34:27 the first magical programming language 23:34:49 octarine? 23:35:00 just having octarine would make it Turing Complete in itself :) 23:35:11 jix: It's the eights color of the rainbow, the magical color. 23:35:19 the rainbow has 9 colors 23:35:27 don't you see them? 23:35:30 what's soe magical in that? 23:35:30 It's only visible in strong magical fields. (Read some Terry Pratchett :) 23:35:40 the rainbow has many colors. 23:36:02 :) well, perhaps this is some reference to some book that i have no idea about.. 23:36:02 it's a fictional color from the Discworld book series 23:36:06 int-e: i red one and i'm going to read more..(i still have one at home unred) 23:36:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octarine#Octarine 23:36:23 jix, it's pronounced 'red', but it's spelled 'read' :) 23:36:53 should've thought of wikipedia. 23:36:55 :) 23:36:58 :) 23:37:00 thanks kipple 23:37:22 int-e: knaw i hate spelling.... 23:37:46 I was just trying to be helpful :( 23:38:00 int-e: yeah feel free to correct me... 23:41:49 writing a program in such a language would be difficult, unless you have a nice IDE though 23:41:52 The rainbow has infinite colors, it's a gradient, not several independent color entities :P 23:41:59 very true 23:42:21 GregorR: yes but it's a gardient with 9 keys that are interpolated... 23:42:32 but Newton was a bit of mystic and decided that we have 7 23:43:13 anyways, about the language.. 23:43:20 what could be good instructions 23:43:26 GregorR, hmm, wasn't there an energy quantum and thus a finite number of different wavelengths in a rainbow? 23:43:39 Keymaker: i think over-complicated instructions would be cool instead of simple ones like bf's 23:43:59 well, perhaps, but it'd be nice to get something actually done 23:44:08 yeah. I've thought of doing a lang where all the instructions have a ton of side effects := 23:44:15 check ADJUST 23:44:20 like take a value from x-3 y+4 and add 4 and multiple it with the x+7 y-2 xor 12 and produce a beep 23:44:22 but perhaps not in this one :) it's gonna be hard enough as it is 23:44:23 i can't make anything in t 23:44:50 i'd like simple, "efficient", visual programming language 23:44:56 agreed 23:45:40 ok but it shouldn't be that minimalistic 23:45:48 it should have powerfull math features 23:45:53 * Keymaker dies 23:46:10 such as? 23:46:12 a set instructions to manipulate the IP, a set of instructions to manipulate the pixels 23:46:15 from cos..e^x...a/b 23:46:27 kipple: yeah 23:46:30 jix: aarg 23:46:35 ? 23:46:45 jix: i wouldn't like 23:46:57 cos/sin would be nice for making circles 23:47:18 or you could just use lookup tables ;) 23:47:23 :) 23:47:48 i think the IP should be befunge like 23:47:53 yes 23:47:57 ok but it should have one 100% useless very complex function i'm going to design now 23:48:10 Keymaker: i think it should use reflection (\ and /) 23:48:23 heh 23:48:32 jix: try 'expand power series' and take the coefficients from a straight line ... 23:48:40 jix: that's powerful and hard to use ;) 23:48:56 uhm i don't understand it 23:49:05 maybe i don't know the english expressions 23:49:29 what I mean are functions defined as f(x) = sum(i=0 to infinity) a_i*x^i 23:49:35 the a_i are the coefficients 23:49:40 to get all the features we want, perhaps we need to get to separate languages (the udage-trigger style) 23:49:51 ah 23:50:00 i at least will work on simple befunge like rgb thing 23:50:22 Keymaker: i like that too 23:50:55 i'd suggest writing the interpreter in c+sdl that's portable and fast 23:51:00 but first we need a spec 23:51:04 yeah 23:51:09 i thought about c+sdl too 23:51:14 yes 23:51:29 do we have a stack? 23:51:34 if you're going with rgb then each value is only 8bit 23:51:35 or registers 23:51:39 yeah 23:51:56 we don't need stacks or registers. the image is the storage 23:52:03 exactly 23:52:11 unless you want turing completeness 23:52:15 well, 23:52:28 there could be infinite "canvas" 23:52:31 yes 23:52:40 that the picture is only part of it, place on right top corner 23:52:46 agreed 23:52:54 the other values all having either random values or 0s or 255s 23:53:35 i have a cool memory adressing idea.. it's possible to adress many values with only 1 byte 23:53:40 with a spiral 23:54:06 well, the language was supposed to be simple to use :) 23:54:11 but nice idea 23:54:12 it's simple 23:54:15 oh 23:54:25 think of 23:54:26 FEDCB 23:54:26 G321A 23:54:26 H4P09 23:54:26 I5678 23:54:26 JKLMNO 23:54:30 where P is the current IP 23:54:42 ok 23:54:49 you just start moving right and walk around the center in a spiral 23:55:06 ah i see now 23:55:16 i was just imagining other kind of spiral 23:55:43 hmm 0 could be the current instruction for easy self modification 23:56:20 if it's going to have infinite canvas, it probably needs a separate data pointer or self-modification 23:56:31 pgimeno: self-modification 23:56:32 how about something like sokoban where you move blocks around? 23:56:50 or infinite data pointer... 23:56:53 :) that'd be fun 23:57:04 but the instruction that moves DP should use spiral-offsets 23:57:26 otherwise the data access will be trapped, just as in Bitxtreme 23:57:49 so it needs separate data pointer..? 23:58:26 yes with inifinite size 23:58:34 either that or self-modification, otherwise infinite size is pointless 23:58:44 (for finite programs) 23:58:46 self-modification 23:58:54 was part of the plan 23:58:58 (iirc) 23:59:06 k 23:59:06 yes but that makes it very hard 23:59:14 but well it's possible 23:59:37 it can copy regions instead of cells 23:59:47 pgimeno: ack ack ack! 23:59:51 brilliant idea 23:59:57 nice :)