00:00:09 <calamari> was learning about DFA's today.  Deterministic Finite Automata.  Pretty cool
00:00:09 <Aardwolf> I typed something here: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Talk:Gammaplex, I hope I didn't mess things up too much! But if that is correct, is it turing complete?
00:01:29 <calamari> not familiar with the language
00:01:46 <lament> Aardwolf: what is "emulate"?
00:02:00 <Aardwolf> in this case, "do the same as" :)
00:02:03 <calamari> hi lament
00:02:09 <lament> Aardwolf: that doesn't explain it at all
00:02:11 <lament> calamari: hi!
00:02:28 <lament> if a language can do the same as brainfuck, it must be some sort of superset
00:03:19 <Aardwolf> I added the turing complete category to this language because I'm pretty sure it's turing complete, but I'm not a professional. Should I remove the category again?
00:03:30 <calamari> not necessarily.. there are workable subsets of bf
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00:15:39 <kipple> from my brief look at it I'd say it's Turing Complete, but I'm no expert on the subject either
00:19:39 <kipple> if you want real proof I suggest writing a bf interpreter (something every new lang should have)
00:20:16 <Aardwolf> ok :)
00:21:47 <lament> note that a bf interpreter does not necessarily prove turing-completeness
00:21:49 <lament> example
00:21:59 <lament> suppose my language has only one command:
00:22:12 <lament> "read from stdin and execute as a brainfuck program"
00:22:18 <lament> is it turing-complete? not really
00:22:28 <calamari> why not?
00:22:46 <lament> it can't even add 2 and 2
00:22:49 <lament> or write "hello world"
00:22:55 <calamari> yeah it can
00:22:57 <lament> all it can do is execute brainfuck programs
00:23:41 <lament> i can't write a program expressing any possible computation in this language
00:23:58 <lament> i can only write one program at all :)
00:24:01 <calamari> stdin: ++>++[<+>-]  
00:24:06 <kipple> is isn't a programming language at all, so it is a bit irrelevant whether or not it is TC
00:24:07 <calamari> program: B
00:24:13 <lament> kipple: sure it is
00:24:39 <kipple> well, then we disagree... :)
00:24:53 <kipple> it's not a language it is an interpreter IMHO
00:25:12 <lament> umm
00:25:21 <lament> it's a language
00:25:24 <lament> it has one command
00:25:40 <calamari> and that command is tc
00:25:40 <lament> i can write an interreter or a compiler for this language
00:25:54 <lament> (very very quickly :) )
00:26:19 <lament> calamari: when considering turing-completess, we don't even care about IO
00:26:20 <calamari> you'd have to implement bf in order to implement the language
00:26:34 <lament> IO is irrelevant to turing-completeness
00:26:48 <calamari> lament: in this case IO is being used to transmit the program, so it is relevant
00:26:51 <lament> no
00:27:27 <calamari> this is very interesting.. but.. things to do :)
00:27:41 <kipple> whether the program is read from memory or stdin should be pretty much the same
00:27:49 <lament> but the program is not read from stdin
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00:27:59 <kipple> hmm. true
00:28:02 <lament> suppose the command that reads and executes is "foo"
00:28:05 <lament> then my program is:
00:28:06 <lament> foo
00:29:52 <lament> better yet
00:29:56 <lament> let's call the command B
00:30:04 <lament> and insert it into HQ9+
00:30:10 <lament> to make HBQ9+
00:30:14 <lament> so that it's not the only command :)
00:30:36 <kipple> well HQ9+ is not  a programming language etiher, in my book....
00:31:52 <lament> and why not?
00:31:53 <kipple> but, of course, there doesn't exist a real definition of what a programming language actually _is_...
00:32:07 <kipple> because you cannot program with it
00:32:15 <lament> hrm
00:32:33 <lament> sure you can
00:32:38 <lament> you can write hello world
00:32:43 <lament> or 99 bottles of beer
00:32:46 <kipple> I can do that in word as well
00:32:47 <lament> or a quine...
00:33:23 <kipple> do you consider the key combinations required to program your VCR a programming language?
00:34:19 <calamari> kipple: that's a good example to help me study.. I should model that as a DFA
00:35:10 <kipple> what's a DFA?
00:35:24 <calamari>  Deterministic Finite Automaton
00:36:21 <calamari> M = (Q, sigma, delta, q, F).  Where: 
00:37:26 <calamari> M = machine, Q= finite set of states, sigma=alphabet (set of characters), delta: transition function Q x sigma->Q, q:start state, F: set of accepting states
00:37:41 <calamari> F is a subset of Q
00:37:51 <kipple> I'll take your word for it ;)
00:38:24 <calamari> you can perform constant memory computations with this type of machine
00:38:56 <calamari> afk again
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03:53:37 <WildHalcyon> Hmmm.. so what did I miss?
03:54:25 <calamari> dunno.. I should see how that whole HQ9B+ thing went :)
03:54:41 <kipple> didn't go anywhere
04:00:07 <WildHalcyon> That discussion seemed to... I dunno. Evaporate.
04:04:47 <GregorR> Keep it evaporated ;)
04:16:13 <WildHalcyon> I have no intention of reviving it
04:16:41 * kipple is tempted....
04:17:51 <WildHalcyon> Im still fiddling with a treap-based language
04:17:58 <WildHalcyon> Trying to get something thats fairly non-deterministic
04:18:05 <kipple> treap? what's that?
04:18:13 <kipple> a datastructure?
04:18:44 <WildHalcyon> Yeah, its a type of binary tree with some heap properties
04:22:02 <WildHalcyon> Im not sure if that would work, but it might be interesting
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04:26:07 <WildHalcyon> Meh... that might not actually work so great. Im actually looking for an underlying data structure to represent a "bag"
04:26:55 <WildHalcyon> The language has several (but limited) variables - maybe A-F registers, and the rest of memory is a "bag" of other junk.
04:27:44 <kipple> what do you mean by "bag"? a datastructure where you only get a random node when you access?
04:29:38 <WildHalcyon> exactly
04:30:29 <kipple> true random access memory in other words ;)
04:31:55 <WildHalcyon> I thought I might try to make something workable with it by including bags-of-bags
04:36:18 <WildHalcyon> You could store a sort of ID number with the data in the bag-bag and then the data. I dunno... maybe not
04:36:29 <WildHalcyon> Ive still got CRAWL to deal with too
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06:29:44 <Gs30ng> emulating bf and proving tc. interesting topic.
06:33:03 <Gs30ng> i guess we should define IO things clearly
06:33:39 <Gs30ng> turing machine itself has IO in a sense
06:34:35 <Gs30ng> even bf without . and , has IO in a sense
06:35:29 <Gs30ng> we can start the bf program with some processed tape
06:35:47 <Gs30ng> and can consider that the result tape is output
06:46:19 <Gs30ng> if it is forbidden to do such things on TM or BF, then church turing thesis is a joke. how can we do something with a machine if can't input anything to it or make it output anything?
06:46:49 <Gs30ng> in this point of view, i think lament is wrong in a sense
06:47:21 <GregorR> A true turing machine contains the entire "input" stream on the tape beforehand, and leaves the "output" stream on the tape.
06:47:33 <Gs30ng> yeap
06:48:48 <Gs30ng> and thus it means we can decide what to input
06:49:16 <Gs30ng> so lament's language with only B command is turing-complete, in my opinion
06:50:25 <Gs30ng> because we can decide what the B command will get and interpret
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07:53:48 <calamari> Gs30ng: still here?
07:53:55 <Gs30ng> yes
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08:58:29 <calamari_> retoki
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09:18:47 <nooga> hi
09:19:00 <calamari_> hi nooga
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09:21:15 <nooga> :D
09:21:38 <nooga> rosemary: only esolangs geeks here :)
09:21:41 <rosemary> desired result + piqued curiosity
09:21:50 <calamari_> hi rosemary 
09:22:08 <rosemary> nooga - well I am niether esolang nor geek!
09:22:13 <calamari_> if you are female, you may very well be the first ever to be in this chatroom :)
09:22:52 <rosemary> as I commented my curiosity was piqued
09:22:55 <calamari_> hehe
09:23:11 <calamari_> how did you hear of this place?
09:23:25 <nooga> nooga j #esoteric
09:23:25 <nooga> nooga heh 
09:23:31 <rosemary> from a linux channel when someone mentioned it
09:23:33 <calamari_> lol
09:23:47 <nooga> my / key doesn't work sometime
09:24:00 <rosemary> sure nooga
09:24:14 <nooga> brb
09:25:47 <rosemary> well - if this is some male thing, then I'm going elsewhere
09:26:02 <rosemary> sorry to intrude
09:26:04 <calamari_> it's for esoteric programming languages
09:26:15 <calamari_> not for males only.. :)
09:26:56 <calamari_> here is your nick in bf:   ++++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++>++++++++><<<<-]>++.>>-.<<+.>+++.>--.<----.<-.+++++++.
09:27:02 <rosemary> okay ... well I do not understand about programming - just wish I had gotten into computers a decade earlier
09:28:23 <calamari_> we discuss weird ways of programming here.. so it's new to us as well when a new language is released
09:29:38 <rosemary> for a moment a I wondered if I had accidentally wandered into some wierd male channel!
09:30:25 <calamari_> rosemary: if you want to run that program there is an online interpreter here: http://koti.mbnet.fi/villes/php/bf.php
09:31:02 <rosemary> calamari what programme?
09:31:02 <Gs30ng> the channel is esoteric, but not for males only, afaik
09:31:22 <calamari_> copy that mess into the code box and click Run
09:31:51 <calamari_> of course not.. was only a joke :)
09:32:15 <puzzlet> esoteric programmers unite!
09:32:28 <calamari_> hey puzzlet
09:32:42 <puzzlet> hello
09:33:03 <rosemary> doubt I'll ever be a programmer - can copy basic scripts is all :-)
09:33:07 <rosemary> anyway night
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09:33:52 <calamari_> Keymaker: you just missed an historic event, lol
09:33:59 <Keymaker> wah?
09:34:00 <Gs30ng> lol
09:34:05 <Keymaker> wha?
09:34:13 <Keymaker> don't tell me dbc was here..
09:34:13 <calamari_> first female in #esoteric
09:34:16 <Keymaker> oh
09:34:17 <puzzlet> is rosemary female?
09:34:19 <puzzlet> ah
09:34:26 <Keymaker> that's awesome too
09:34:33 <puzzlet> indeed
09:34:46 <Keymaker> i'll take a look at the logs
09:35:22 <puzzlet> did i mention i've introduced esoteric languages in 1st Alternative Language Festival in Korea? http://altlang.org/
09:35:38 <Keymaker> woah
09:35:42 <Gs30ng> i don't even know any female programmer
09:35:59 <puzzlet> Gs30ng, Vanneva Bush
09:36:19 <Gs30ng> and a female esolang programmer, just sounds like a hoax
09:37:42 <Gs30ng> puzzlet, i googled, and it was Vannevar Bush
09:37:44 <puzzlet> what, vannevar bush is male?
09:38:08 <Keymaker> what the president of usa?!
09:38:12 <puzzlet> English names are confusing
09:39:13 <Gs30ng> like puzzlet
09:39:36 <Gs30ng> i always confuse puzzlet and fuzzlet
09:40:49 <calamari_> puzzlet: didn't realize you were in #mediawiki
09:40:58 <Keymaker> about the esolang logo discussion;
09:41:07 <puzzlet> me neither
09:41:10 <Keymaker> i once drew couple of eso dodos
09:41:16 <Keymaker> (as probably someone remembers)
09:41:26 <calamari_> puzzlet: I was asking about the Korean esowiki
09:41:29 <Keymaker> i think the kipple's dodo idea was good
09:41:41 <calamari_> puzzlet: but it seems that to do it there have to be two different wikis
09:42:00 <Keymaker> another idea for logo could be picture of dominatrix, inspired by that sadol book.
09:43:39 <puzzlet> but contributors to the Korean wiki would be not more than 3 or 4 people
09:44:28 <puzzlet> what if the wiki eventually becomes, like forgotten?
09:45:36 <Gs30ng> in wikipedia same problem occurs
09:45:39 <puzzlet> Korean wiki should be incorporated with the English wiki in some ways
09:46:25 <puzzlet> like using MediaWiki, bonded with the English wiki by interwiki links
09:47:26 <puzzlet> i've heard it from Gs30ng, but i think MoinMoin is not likely in this case.
09:47:30 <Keymaker> oh, and the main reason i came to visit the channel this time: i just made a new quine in brainfuck, 1606 instructions. my current record, that can be found at bf-hacks.org) is 933. but i tried a bit new stuff in this new one, so it might be possible that i break my current record, when i optimize this new quine. you see, this new one has no optimization..
09:49:19 <puzzlet> awk for 10 min.
09:52:07 <calamari_> hmm weird.. win2003 isn't telling me to reactivate.  Maybe that's only an XP thing
09:53:00 <nooga> .back
09:53:22 <calamari_> its sooo slow.. 98 is so much faster hehe
09:56:49 <nooga> 98 runs on my 486 laptop
09:56:54 <nooga> with 24 MB ram
09:57:12 <nooga> ...but debian 3 woody runs too
09:57:19 <calamari_> I have 95 on my 486/100.. 16mb ram
09:57:21 <nooga> and does it faster
09:58:42 <calamari_> would run 3.1 on it, but 3.1 networking support is horrible
10:05:31 <Keymaker> :)
10:05:35 <Keymaker> anyways, gotta go
10:05:47 <Keymaker> btw, can't come here for a while, i'm going to hiking for three days
10:05:59 <Keymaker> a school course i selected for some reason.. x9
10:06:01 <Keymaker> bye
10:06:08 -!- Keymaker has left (?).
10:08:43 <calamari_> wow, glad I'm not superstitious :)
10:09:43 <calamari_> my adventure game was about a hiker stranded in mountain woods for 3 days and having to make their way off alive
10:13:24 <Gs30ng> and you added irc connecting stuffs in that game
10:13:39 <calamari_> huh? :)
10:13:48 <Gs30ng> so Keymaker was a program
10:14:17 <calamari_> oh, haha.. I hope Keymaker doesn't get attacked by a bear and stuck in the woods ;)
10:15:07 <calamari_> not sure why, but I never was able to get motivated after my summer classes.  burnt out or something
10:37:15 <calamari_> wow 3am.. cya all :)
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13:20:37 <nooga> ;>
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13:53:22 <nooga> http://nooga.int.pl/sadol <- updated ;p
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14:25:10 <nooga> hi
14:38:55 <tokigun> hello
14:39:10 <tokigun> :)
14:39:40 <tokigun> nooga: ahhmmmm... i'm working on SADOL implementation
14:40:02 <tokigun> i've seen BDSM code. freaky naming.. my...
14:42:41 <nooga> hehe
14:42:51 <nooga> BDSM is not compliant
14:43:07 <nooga> he worked on that in secret
14:43:20 <nooga> so he didn't asked me about a few things
14:43:28 <nooga> like a variable scope
14:43:35 <tokigun> yeah..
14:43:35 <nooga> and other things
14:43:49 <nooga> now i try to describe it all
14:47:03 <nooga> tokigun: why the naming is freaky?
14:47:27 <tokigun> think original meaning of BDSM... :)
14:48:08 <nooga> heheh 
14:48:25 <nooga> it was intended
14:52:24 <puzzlet> is BDSM a language/
14:52:25 <puzzlet> ?
14:52:33 <tokigun> puzzlet: no implementation
14:52:37 <tokigun> nooga: ~q1:i0@<i,239!?-#_0,242##_0i#_0q",239~q1:i0@<i,239!?-#_0,242##_0i#_0q",239*
14:52:52 <tokigun> maybe quine without list P...
14:53:33 <Gs30ng> BDSM is an implementation of SADOL
14:53:51 <puzzlet> what does the name stand for?
14:54:10 <tokigun> Badly Developed SADOL Machine
14:54:21 <Gs30ng> http://regedit.risp.pl/BDSM/Readme.html
14:54:39 <Gs30ng> http://regedit.risp.pl/BDSM/
14:54:45 <nooga> tokigun: then write one ;p
14:55:02 <tokigun> nooga: it works well?
14:55:16 <nooga> in my old interpreter 
14:55:21 <tokigun> yeah
14:55:22 <nooga> in BDSM no
14:55:27 <tokigun> hmmm
14:58:13 <tokigun> in documentation: ",212I like SADOL {a UAF call using KAF as the number of arguments} 
14:58:25 <tokigun> is it a UAF call using UAF?
14:58:47 <nooga> o fuck ;p
15:22:20 <tokigun> nooga: hmmm
15:23:16 <tokigun> when calling a function, local variables in caller are copied to local variables in the function? or removed from current scope?
15:26:37 <nooga> what would be better?
15:28:39 <tokigun> i don't know...
15:29:01 <tokigun> hmm
15:29:15 <tokigun> +3"2am is equal to "33am ?
15:32:34 <nooga> yes
15:33:06 <tokigun> nooga: hmm i think you've changed defintion of ' function...
15:33:26 <nooga> yes
15:34:00 <nooga> there is no function for converting a integer into a char
15:34:05 <tokigun> hmmm
15:34:19 <tokigun> then how to do it?
15:34:57 <nooga> mabye make like this: '0% returns 37, '1,237 returns "1%
15:34:59 <nooga> ?
15:35:04 <nooga> what do you think?
15:35:10 <tokigun> nooga: i agree
15:35:24 <nooga> then i'll change it in the table
15:35:47 <nooga> but i've lost the password to my account -.-
15:35:53 <tokigun> :S
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15:40:02 <tokigun> :i,299:b",21899 bottles of beer:n',210@i(4!+++++++b",213 on the wall,nb"1,n",230Take one down, pass it around,n:i-i1:b+++i"7 bottle?-i1"1s"0"8 of beer!+++b",213 on the wall.nn
15:40:10 <tokigun> maybe 99 bottles of beer song.
15:40:48 <nooga> huh
15:41:48 <tokigun> it works?
15:42:22 <nooga> wait a moment
15:43:29 <WildHalcyon> man, today's sucked
15:46:10 <nooga> heh
15:46:24 <nooga> BDSM requires a progn on the beggining
15:46:45 <nooga> because it treats a program like a one big expression
15:46:59 <nooga> not a list of expressions
16:02:49 <nooga> uff
16:02:52 <nooga> i got my pass back
16:14:28 <nooga> huh
16:21:56 <nooga> tokigun?
16:22:03 <nooga> how's it going?
16:27:25 <nooga> g2g
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17:29:43 <J|x> hah ORKgl!
17:29:59 <J|x> ORKsdl with ogl support!
17:30:23 <J|x> i don't want to write that...
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17:42:33 <GregorR> Probably wouldn't be too difficult *shrugs*
17:42:38 <GregorR> Make a class with a bunch of ORK_ functions.
17:43:50 <jix> yes
17:44:23 <jix> but i'm not a ogl expert
17:44:34 <jix> i don't know the ogl calls...
17:44:49 <jix> hmm maybe vertex3f...(if that's correct)
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19:18:56 <nooga> me again
19:32:48 <GregorR> You again!?
19:32:50 <GregorR> YOU AGAIN?!
19:32:53 <GregorR> I mean, hi.
19:34:17 <nooga> he he he
19:49:26 <int-e> is he following you around, too, GregorR?
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20:56:26 <nooga> hehe
20:57:01 <nooga> my buddy wrote a fibbonacci string, qsort and bubble sort in SADOL 
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22:03:29 <nooga> heh
22:03:34 <nooga> goodnight
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