00:00:02 <calamari> Aardwolf: I think it can be reduced to 3.. but I dunno how :)
00:00:06 <Aardwolf> Hey add the 4 symbol solution in there, I don't see it in there :)
00:00:17 <calamari> well, afk.. got http post working, finally! now to implement that in python
00:00:34 <calamari> aardwolf: it's there, but somewhat obscured by .,
00:00:41 <kipple> interesting discussion here :)
00:00:57 <calamari> Aardwolf: you don't need i/o, so }< is 4
00:01:03 <Aardwolf> Well would be cool if someone found a revolutionary 3 symbol solution :)
00:01:43 <Aardwolf> without io it becomes even less practical though ;)
00:02:04 <calamari> not any less so than lambda calculus :)
00:02:27 <kipple> a problem with couting commands is that some languages have commands without arguments and some have one or more args per command
00:02:28 <wildhalcyon> Not necessarily Aardwolf, really I/O doesn't belong on a turing tape
00:02:49 <kipple> it's easy to have few commands if you can use args
00:05:16 <Aardwolf> Sorry for being off topic but I once read about code that would generate the same compiler (error) output as the code itself, sort of like a quine but with compiler errors instead. I can't find it again with google though. Anyone remember something about this?
00:05:48 <wildhalcyon> I remember that, I think it was a version of C or C++
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00:18:58 <calamari> Aardwolf: yeah I remember that.. it was like a 99bob or hello world type page with listings for various languages
00:19:52 <calamari> maybe search for "Bad command or file name" , or various shell errors :)
00:21:07 <calamari> got wiki writing working, now need to do it all again in python .. :/
00:21:36 <kipple> what? have you switched to python?
00:22:13 <calamari> nope.. have to work around Java's security mechanisms
00:22:40 <kipple> does that mean the applet can't be hosted within the wiki?
00:22:43 <calamari> first it POST's to my server, then it will repost that to the wiki
00:23:04 <calamari> it can, that'll be great when it is
00:23:10 <Aardwolf> Would it be good to post an example of a quine on the esolang quine page, or can brainfuck quine code be copyrighted
00:23:39 <calamari> Aardwolf: do you know who did?
00:24:06 <Aardwolf> Well, there are names of people mentioned :) http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/self_brainf.txt
00:24:15 <Aardwolf> maybe you know one of them? :)
00:24:39 <kipple> Keymaker has a bf-quine here: http://bf-hacks.org/programs.html
00:24:49 <kipple> I'm sure he'll agree to post it on the wiki
00:25:27 <Aardwolf> Well hopefully he reads the logs :)
00:25:54 <calamari> I know Brian Raiter: http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/
00:26:17 <calamari> I've mailed him before.. cool guy
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03:56:26 <calamari> yay, mediawiki has some kind of anti-bot checking built in..
03:56:38 <calamari> http post.. its the lamest thing ever
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06:33:55 <calamari_> ahh, now it only creates one change entry per new file
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07:13:16 <calamari> well, it works.. now all we need are more languages interpreters :)
07:46:35 <calamari> added Unnecessary language interpreter
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10:28:14 <graue> the quinelike things that print themselves as error messages are called kimian quines
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10:30:33 <kipple> calamari: I see you've put up the api for esoshell :)
10:30:36 <graue> hey cal, all your esoshell stuff is sort of drowning out the normal editing of the wiki
10:30:52 <calamari_> graue: yeah I wanted to ask you about that
10:30:57 <graue> I think we need a "hide esoshell namespace edits" patch for the recent changes page
10:31:12 <kipple> Is that because the Esoshell namespace is not properly configured?
10:31:24 <calamari_> kipple: yeah afaik there isn't an EsoShell nasespace yet
10:31:25 <graue> no, it's because mediawiki doesn't have a feature like that
10:31:30 <kipple> I thought the recent changes only listed changes in the normal namespace
10:31:55 <calamari_> kipple: graue has been waiting on me to stop being lazy and get the wiki i/o done ;)
10:32:15 <graue> kipple: no, it shows them all
10:33:15 <calamari_> graue: is it difficult to add that namespace?
10:33:17 <kipple> I see that edits by bots are not shown per default. Is it possible to flag the edits made by the shell as 'bot'?
10:34:07 <graue> possibly, if they're proxied by calamari_'s server
10:34:24 <graue> I think the proxy would have to log in when it made an edit, and I'd somehow label the account it used as 'bot'
10:34:26 <calamari_> they are.. had to overcome Java's security measures
10:35:06 <graue> I have no idea about namespaces, but is there any problem with the current setup, other than the talk pages not being "EsoShell talk"?
10:36:20 <kipple> looked up the mediawiki documentation, and bot is just a user setting like sysop
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10:36:37 <calamari_> graue: no, I thought you were wanting the namespace.. if you don't then it doesn't matter
10:36:57 <graue> I agree it would be nicer
10:37:03 <kipple> so I guess there should be a separate EsoShell bot-user
10:37:14 <calamari_> graue: I'm wondering about a category for EsoShell though, like you could mark bf as being in EsoShell
10:37:31 <calamari_> not that iomortant right now since only 2 languages are implemented, just something to think about
10:37:33 <graue> [[Category:Supported by EsoShell]]?
10:37:48 <kipple> or just [[Category:EsoShell]]
10:39:02 <graue> by the way, calamari_, you could have the proxy mention the user's IP address in its edit summary, as a rough way of tracking who made what edit
10:39:55 <kipple> to create a custom namespace you must edit the LocalSettings.php : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Custom_namespaces
10:40:16 <calamari_> graue: hmm, good idea.. I'll lok into that
10:42:00 <calamari_> graue: it may be possible to have the app log in as the user, but there are all sorts of security problems there that I'd rather avoid
10:42:17 <kipple> and then you can't flag the edits as 'bot'
10:49:21 <kipple> there are now a couple of articles about specific implementations in the wiki (awib and BFBasic). I think we should have a category for them.
10:50:35 <kipple> or perhaps there should be a [[category:Brainfuck]] to put all bf-related stuff in.
10:51:08 <kipple> oops. are you messing with the namespaces, graue? ;)
10:51:34 <kipple> something is definately wrong right now...
10:52:36 <graue> [[category:implementations]] sounds good, and yeah I just was
10:53:05 <kipple> well, you've messed up something. look at http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Iota_and_Jot
10:53:14 <kipple> I see comments from the php file...
10:53:38 <graue> looks fine to me :)
10:54:12 * kipple reloads and gets a bit embarrassed
10:54:21 <graue> by the way, calamari_, it seems you have to recreate the EsoShell pages now
10:54:36 <calamari_> graue: that's fine.. they were temporary
10:55:21 <graue> actually, I should probably comment out the new namespaces, then go back and delete those pages, then add the namespaces again
10:55:25 <graue> it seems to be a bit messed up
10:58:16 <graue> I moved them to User:Graue/Old Esoshell/[Brainfuck|Temp|Befunge]
10:58:33 <kipple> anybody else think we should have a category for bf-related stuff? currently we have the articles Brainfuck algorithms,BFBASIC, Brainfuck constants, Awib and BF instruction minimalization which would qualify for this cat.
10:59:35 <graue> kipple: sure, I guess so
11:00:42 <kipple> we're starting to get a lot of categories, but I think that's a good thing
11:03:51 <kipple> anybody know how to link to a category page?
11:04:01 <graue> [[:Category:Whatever]]
11:05:56 <graue> I don't think the brainfuck article should link to [[Category:Brainfuck]], since it's in that category, so there's already a link to it
11:06:13 <graue> and [[Category:Brainfuck derivatives]] can easily be found within the Brainfuck category
11:06:26 <kipple> I don't see why not. the category links are hidden down at the bottom and not very visible
11:08:21 <graue> that's only because of the improper choice of theme and/or useragent
11:10:02 <calamari_> apparently it thinks my host/ip/etc are the same as the server the applet is running on
11:12:21 <graue> kipple: you essentially have a complaint against where the categories are displayed in the monobook theme
11:12:35 <graue> still, it makes more semantic sense to find a category from the link at the bottom than from a "see also"
11:12:38 <kipple> ah, I see. are they more visible in the default theme?
11:14:10 <kipple> I still think it is nice to have it listed in See Also.
11:14:23 <kipple> there you can put a brief description next ot the link as well
11:15:01 <graue> what's to describe? it's the Brainfuck category!
11:15:33 <kipple> added some descriptions :)
11:16:13 <kipple> I'm just thinking about occasional visitors which might not be familiar with mediawiki and the category concept
11:17:01 <kipple> dang, you're fast to correct errors ;)
11:18:42 <graue> we should have a help page or something for people to get familiar with the category concept
11:19:03 <graue> however, how many esolang enthusiasts are really not going to have used wikipedia?
11:19:15 <kipple> you're probably right.
11:19:51 <kipple> though I like to think that sometimes people who are not (yet) enthusiasts comes by :)
11:20:07 <graue> yay, esoshell is now running at 127.0.0.1
11:20:28 <kipple> what? that's my IP! get out of my computer!!!!
11:21:17 <calamari_> graue: trying to get you your ip's.. not having great luck with it tho :)
11:22:10 <kipple> can't the python script simply get it from the request? or are you doing it in the applet?
11:27:29 <kipple> calamari: what's the point of this page: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/??
11:28:02 <kipple> hmm. does that link work at all? contains two korean chars
11:28:24 <graue> it's "main page" in Korean
11:28:34 <graue> and was an attempt to wedge two wikis into the same place
11:29:24 <graue> I wonder if following wikipedia's example and having kr.esoteric.voxelperfect.net wouldn't be a better idea
11:29:37 <graue> but it would probably be a pain to set up
11:30:00 <kipple> but is there really a need for it? doesn't seem like any of the koreans have even bothered to edit this main page
11:31:10 <graue> it was just a test; they weren't expected to
11:37:03 <graue> stuff compiled with awib won't seem to run under OpenBSD's linux compatibility layer
11:37:33 <graue> I get "Operation not permitted" and then if I use "elf2olf -o linux awib" I get "Cannot allocate memory"
11:39:27 <kipple> maybe you should port it to BSD then ;)
11:39:30 <calamari_> kipple: good idea with python.. got it :)
11:42:00 <kipple> getting it to log in as a user next?
11:42:42 <calamari_> not tonight.. it'll be a major pain
11:43:16 <calamari_> http post is horrible..even if one little thing is off it won't send the data
11:43:45 <kipple> OT: does anyone know of a nice graph generating script for PHP?
11:44:29 <kipple> like: I give it a set of dates and related numbers, and it plots a nice chart for me
11:47:12 <graue> it doesn't check for EOF
11:47:23 <kipple> I've tried searching a bit but I get so extremely many results, and no idea which are good
11:47:41 <graue> so when EOF occurs, the program just gets some random wrapped value based on whatever EOF is implemented as
11:47:41 <calamari_> kipple: no I mean the channel #web
11:47:59 <kipple> ah. perhaps I'll try that. thanks
11:49:27 <kipple> what time is it where you are?
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11:51:23 <kipple> fun fact: the Malbolge article is the 4th most popular article on the wiki (behind Main Page, Language List, and brainfuck)
11:56:44 <graue> more people should read about 1L
11:59:41 <kipple> even more OT: today's Irregular Web Comic is hilarious: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cgi-bin/comic.pl?comic=954
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12:04:10 <Aardwolf> What is EsoShell? Is it a sort of tool that will be on the wiki?
12:04:38 <kipple> http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/EsoShell/
12:04:53 <kipple> a java-applet unix-like console with esolang implementations
12:07:15 <Aardwolf> oh I see. Will it come on the wiki? It looks to me like there's a lot of testing going on
12:07:29 <kipple> it will hopefully be included in the wiki
12:07:36 <kipple> it uses the wiki as it's file system
12:21:07 <graue> EsoShell needs some 1L support if it's gonna really take off
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16:36:20 <Keymaker> finally had time to optimize the current quine work
16:36:52 <Keymaker> got it to 1214, which is almost 300 bytes larger than my current record
16:37:14 <Keymaker> probably i should do some other bf stuff for a chance, like i months ago thought
16:37:45 <Keymaker> well, been very busy.. that'll ease in a month though..
16:54:48 <Aardwolf> Keymaker, will you post a few quines on the wiki as examples?
16:59:28 <Keymaker> well, other people have done a lot shorter than mine..
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22:28:17 <GregorR> (He responds, 20 minutes later)
22:35:45 <calamari> it was suggested that 1L be implemented in EsoShell
22:36:06 <calamari> I was looking at the 1L page, but there are two variants.. which is the active branch?
22:49:54 <calamari> hmm.. the bf interpreter seems to be broken..
22:55:40 <calamari> maybe its this Java.. everything seems to be melting down and it was fine at home
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23:01:09 <calamari> aha, 1.5 code seems to have slipped in again
23:06:22 <GregorR> 1L_a I think he called it.
23:07:25 <GregorR> I didn't reapear btw, I reappeared :-P
23:08:41 <calamari> oh.. I didn't even see your first line.. lol
23:09:37 <calamari> it bothers me that those Java exceptions weren't being thrown to the EsoShell console.. I thought I'd set it up so they would be
23:10:58 <GregorR> That wasn't proper IRC emoting :P
23:11:35 <calamari> I've been on irc since 1993.. it's been in use at least that long ;)
23:14:03 <calamari> back then I used undernet, because it was the only one I could connect to via gopher
23:39:16 <graue> has anyone made a 2D language with a preprocessor?
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23:51:40 <calamari> graue: it shouldn't be overly difficult to port 1L to EsoShell. I've put the API and source files on http://esoshell.kidsquid.com/ You can run Application.class directly to make it easier to debug things
23:52:51 <calamari> I'd do it, but I'm wondering about my documentation, etc.. is it good enough? If it isn't, then I'd like to know so I can improve it
23:53:42 <graue> well, I can't actually run EsoShell so far as I know
23:55:16 <graue> does it work with gcj 3.4 and/or kaffe 1.0.6?
23:55:34 <graue> I could try, I guess
23:56:01 <calamari> I'm not sure, but if it doesn't let me know so I can fix it
23:58:29 <calamari> whew.. lots of errors in gcj 3.3.3, but maybe I just don't know what I'm doing with it