00:00:07 <Aardwolf> oh, handy
00:00:34 <{^Raven^}> it made it harder because there was too much that could be done
00:01:05 <Aardwolf> do you know gamedev.net?
00:01:54 <{^Raven^}> not heard of it
00:02:31 <Aardwolf> oh ok, it's a forum for game developers I thought you might know it because of you interest in developing games :)
00:04:45 <{^Raven^}> i'm a chiefly a utility/tool programmer
00:08:30 <{^Raven^}> calamari: have you had any chance to play with or work on BFBASIC in the last few months?
00:09:26 * calamari is back
00:09:33 <calamari> and leaving again.. meeting
00:09:43 <calamari> nope.. and wont have any time, sorry
00:09:45 <calamari> bbl
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00:28:32 <Aardwolf> It's sort of stupid that Category pages only show a listing after you added a description
00:51:45 <kipple> before you add a description there is no page
00:56:13 <Aardwolf> I improved and added a few things, hopefully for the better :)
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03:18:06 <wildhalcyon> Woohoo!
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12:18:34 <Aardwolf> aw, yesterday's log is broken
13:06:08 <kipple> I have no problems viewing yesterday's log
13:12:52 <Aardwolf> *opens the log in other browser*
13:13:11 <Aardwolf> aha the old version is cached and refuses to redownload after pressing F5
13:13:19 <Aardwolf> stupid mozilla :)
13:17:19 <Aardwolf> Can a language that only has a stack, that can only push and pop (no swap, rolldown, ...) be turing complete?
13:20:32 <lindi-> Aardwolf: if it's equivalent to a pushdown automaton then no
13:21:02 <kipple> probably not
13:21:42 <lindi-> Aardwolf: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pushdown_automaton
13:39:44 <pgimeno> it might depend on the specifications; if it has div/mod and unlimited integers it might be TC because the top element of the stack might act as a counter
13:41:02 <Aardwolf> interesting
13:42:29 <Aardwolf> appearantly if you have two stacks it can be TC
13:46:57 <pgimeno> see also http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_machine
13:47:53 <pgimeno> "He also describes a variation which is Turing-complete with only one register; this variation requires that the machine has operations to:
13:47:53 <pgimeno>     * multiply the register by a constant; and
13:47:53 <pgimeno>     * check to see if it is divisible by a constant, and if so, divide by that constant and affect an alternate state transition. "
13:57:41 <kipple> Aardwolf: with two stacks you can emulate an unbounded tape, so that is definately sufficient
14:04:22 -!- jix has joined.
14:06:41 <jix> moin!
14:20:00 <Aardwolf> y helo thar!
14:46:27 <jix> i'm trying to build a minimalistic turing complete language for writing the smallest ruby interpreter for an esolang ever
14:46:45 <jix> hmm maybe my bfx.rb is the smallest ruby esolang interpreter but it's too large
14:46:47 <kipple> cool
14:48:13 <kipple> so it has to be even more minimalistic than bf? good luck
14:48:31 <Aardwolf> I'm designing another image based language, pretty minimalistic but more complex than brainloller
14:48:40 <jix> no not more minimalistic than bf
14:48:52 <jix> but the implementation in ruby is more minimalistic
14:48:57 <kipple> ok
14:49:31 <Aardwolf> I'll call it Mycelium
14:50:54 <kipple> jix: so, what part of bf takes the most bytes of ruby code to implement?
14:51:24 <jix> hmm
14:51:36 <jix> you can't really say which part takes most bytes
14:52:35 <kipple> can I see the ruby code?
14:53:18 <jix> $>.sync=m="\0";j=0;eval$<.read.tr(x='^[]+><,.-',"").gsub(/./){%w{while\ m[\
14:53:18 <jix> j]>0 end m[j]+=1 (j+=1)>=m.size&&m<<0 j-=1 m[j]=STDIN.getc||0 putc\ m[j]
14:53:18 <jix> m[j]-=1}[x.index($&)-1]+";"}#esoteric@irc.freenode.net  Jannis Harder 2005#
14:54:28 <kipple> dropping IO is of course an easy way to shave off some chars, but a bit cheating :)
14:54:42 <kipple> IO is not necessary for TC
14:54:47 <jix> but i want IO
14:56:47 <jix> idea!
15:01:28 <jix> bad idea...
15:07:41 <jix> oisc-a-like is pretty easy to implement
15:14:30 <jix> the cpu is implemented in 70 bytes but IO is missing
15:14:46 <jix> oh in 68 byte
15:16:11 <jix> in 64 byte
15:19:59 <jix> cpu with io in 116 bytes
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15:38:45 <kipple> nice :)
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15:59:37 <nooga> hi
16:08:22 <kipple> lo
16:08:51 <nooga> ge
16:11:26 <nooga> hmh
16:15:10 <nooga> i just discovered that i just can't get myself to write a big and useful application
16:15:37 <nooga> i'm only able to make to spend my time on something useless but funny ;p
16:15:44 <nooga> like esolangs
16:15:55 <kipple> hehe.
16:16:40 <kipple> how big is 'big' in this context?
16:19:46 <nooga> dunno, CMS maybe
16:23:23 <jix> i'm at 149 byte!
16:23:38 <kipple> huh? is it getting bigger?
16:23:43 <jix> yes
16:23:48 <jix> my IO was incomlpete
16:23:54 <jix> no EOF handling
16:24:19 <kipple> how far is that from the bf version?
16:24:29 <jix> the BF IO is complete
16:24:31 <jix> with EOF == 0
16:24:49 <kipple> I meant how many bytes smaller is this one than the BF one
16:24:54 <jix> oh
16:25:11 <jix> 177 vs 149
16:25:26 <kipple> 149 fits nicely on two sig-lines :)
16:25:53 <nooga> what are you doing jix
16:25:55 <nooga> ?
16:26:14 <jix> writing a OISC like interpreter with at less bytes as possible
16:27:25 <nooga> hm
16:31:37 <nooga> in what language ?;p
16:31:45 <jix> ruby
16:31:59 <nooga> blah
16:32:09 <jix> blah?
16:32:14 <nooga> i dun like it, it reminds me of ADA ;p
16:32:29 <jix> i don't know ada but ruby really rules
16:33:00 <jix> at first you think that syntax is weird but if you start using it you'll love the syntax
16:34:52 <nooga> yes
16:34:59 <nooga> the syntax is werid
16:35:09 <nooga> i dont like that ends everywhere
16:35:27 <jix> i don't like } everywhere
16:36:04 <nooga> but writing } everywhere is much faster then writing end everywhere
16:36:33 <jix> for } i need 2 keys pressed at the same time.. i'm faster pressing 3 keys one after each other
16:38:49 <jix> and i'm faster at writing letters than special chars
16:39:39 <nooga> ¹ó³æñꜿŸ :>
16:39:52 <jix> ??
16:40:06 <jix> and ruby has rails!
16:40:17 <nooga> i'm accustomed with writing special chars ;p
16:40:21 <nooga> rails?
16:40:29 <jix> the super-cool web framewrok
16:40:42 <jix> http://www.rubyonrails.com/
16:41:59 <nooga> huh
16:42:00 <nooga> looks cool
16:42:39 <nooga> but when i seek something to learn ruby i find only stupid manuals ;p
16:42:46 <jix> but there are ends everywhere ;)
16:43:01 <jix> buy pickaxe
16:43:04 <jix> 2
16:43:10 <jix> or read pickaxe 1 online for free
16:43:16 <nooga> long time ago i coded in pascal ;p
16:43:35 <nooga> it was in 1995 ;p
16:43:51 <nooga> so i know something about ends ;p
16:44:15 <jix> but in pascal you write ENDs and not ends, right?
16:44:24 <nooga> yea
16:44:40 <nooga> and begins begins and begins... ;p
16:44:51 <jix> http://ruby-doc.org/docs/ProgrammingRuby/ << i learned ruby using that
16:45:02 <jix> it's for ruby 1.6 but most things are true for 1.8 too
16:45:26 <jix> there are begins in ruby too.. for error handling
16:45:31 <nooga> ill check it
16:46:07 <jix> begin\ncode\nrescue RuntimeError\nputs "Failed!"\nend
16:46:37 <nooga> ?
16:47:17 <jix> replace \n with newlines
16:47:31 <jix> you could use ; but in ruby you rarely use ;
16:47:46 <nooga> hm
16:47:48 <nooga> looks simple
16:47:50 <jix> oh and ruby has irb
16:48:00 <grim_> we are thinking about using ruby here where I work
16:48:10 <jix> grim_: cool
16:48:26 <grim_> I have not had a chance to look at it properly though
16:48:44 <jix> one thing i like about ruby is the community
16:49:37 <nooga> hm, i must check that whole ruby
16:49:57 <nooga> for i in 1..x statement looks cool
16:50:28 <jix> (1..x).each do |i| is more rubysque
16:50:39 <jix> and you start to love blocks
16:50:42 * grim_ prefers haskell
16:50:57 <jix> haskell is a nice language too
16:51:25 <jix> for some things functional languages are the best solution for some things functional and oo languages are good and for some things oo is better
16:51:51 <nooga> haskell suxx
16:52:14 <jix> nooga: writing webframeworks in haskell sucks
16:52:20 <nooga> all i know about haskell is that it's an old, academic language ;p 
16:52:33 <nooga> object oriented ;p
16:53:01 <grim_> common misconceptions ;) but I am no great advocate of it
16:53:05 <grim_> I just find it fun
16:53:22 <jix> haskell has some pretty cool things.. like generating a list of ALL prime numbers and print the first 10
16:53:32 <jix> that was my first usefull haskell program
16:54:09 <grim_> lazy evaluation is fun generally
16:54:53 <nooga> hyh
16:55:14 <jix> one of my first haskell programs: http://rafb.net/paste/results/TzQvS266.html
16:55:18 <grim_> ruby seems very practical anyway
16:55:22 <nooga> class Song
16:55:23 <nooga>   @@count = 0
16:55:41 <nooga> why i can't just write: count = 0
16:55:43 <nooga> ?
16:55:51 <jix> nooga: because count is a class-variable
16:55:59 <jix> it's a variable shared by all instances of that class
16:56:01 <nooga> that sucks
16:56:07 <nooga> a
16:56:17 <jix> normal local variables have no special sign in front of them
16:56:45 <jix> just global-variables (rarely used) instance variables (called member variables in some other languages) and class variables
16:56:58 <jix> sometimes class variables are called singleton variables
16:58:26 * grim_ wonders why
16:58:43 <grim_> can it not derive that from context?
16:58:43 <jix> because singleton classes are classes that have only one instance
16:58:58 <jix> and class variables are shared by all instances so they exist only once
16:58:58 <nooga> um
16:58:59 <nooga> aha
16:59:58 <grim_> I'm going to stop now as I don't know enough about the language to discuss it
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17:10:05 <jix> 153 bytes
17:11:26 <jix> ah.. added a new feature i'd like to have: 161 bytes
17:15:09 <jix> 157
17:15:14 <jix> 156
17:19:43 <jix> 155
17:28:02 <jix> ich habe hello world in subskin geschrieben!
17:28:09 <jix> arg
17:28:10 <jix> wrong lang ^^
17:28:18 <jix> i've written hello world in subskin
17:28:38 <jix> i was switching between german and english too fast...
17:29:17 <jix> subskin == SUBtract and SKip If Negative
17:30:55 <jix> i have cat.subskin too
17:34:33 <grim_> something's just popped into my head
17:34:47 <grim_> it appears to be a language where the only data type is the memory reference
17:35:13 <grim_> and where memory references are also interpreted as instructions
17:35:24 <jix> i just have memory references
17:35:36 <jix> only memory references
17:36:02 <grim_> yes, referencing only data from within the source file
17:36:14 <grim_> and addressing that memory lexically
17:36:25 <grim_> (lexical memory addresses have been in my head for a while now)
17:37:06 <grim_> eg [7:12] refers to line 7, word 12
17:37:55 <grim_> * to dereference (presumably getting another memory reference in return)
17:38:25 * grim_ shakes his head
17:38:48 <grim_> already it hurts to think about
17:44:51 <jix> i removed the sync feature
17:45:46 <jix> here is the code:
17:45:46 <jix> m=readlines.map{|e|e.hex};loop{m[1]<0||$><<m[1].chr&&m[1]=-1;m[2]<0&&m[2]=
17:45:46 <jix> STDIN.getc||256;a,b,c=m[m[0],3];q=(m[c]=m[a]-m[b])<0?6:3;m[0]+=q}rescue 0
17:50:50 <{^Raven^}> grim_: are you a RISC OS user? I saw you mentioned it the other day
17:56:29 <grim_> {^Raven^}: a lapsed RISC OS user I'm afraid
17:56:43 <grim_> never upgraded from my A3000
17:57:36 <grim_> I've played with Red Squirrel a bit for my nostalgia fix
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19:03:12 <{^Raven^}> grim_: i still use a RISC PC every day
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20:18:10 <wildhalcyon> Im trying to write a 2D procedural object-oriented language. Damn, this is hard work
20:23:30 <grim_> {^Raven^}: it would be lovely but I can't see myself switching back in the near future
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20:56:59 <jix> i'm back
21:09:15 <grim_> lo jix
21:12:36 * jix is going to write his User:jix and Jannis Harder wiki page
21:21:45 <wildhalcyon> wb jix
21:35:13 <jix> who has write access to the file archive?
21:55:09 <jix> i'm working at the Subskin wiki pae
21:55:10 <jix> +g
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22:53:37 * grim_ considers what instruction set to use
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23:08:44 * grim_ considers bed
23:08:51 <grim_> bed wins
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