00:53:25 -!- grim_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:53:58 -!- grim_ has joined. 01:01:45 -!- Keymaker has joined. 01:01:55 'ello 01:02:29 hi keymaker 01:02:34 hi 01:10:48 -!- grim__ has joined. 01:22:49 -!- grim___ has joined. 01:23:20 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:29:34 -!- grim_ has joined. 01:30:11 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:31:17 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 01:42:11 -!- grim___ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:23:44 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:24:13 -!- calamari has joined. 03:03:51 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 03:06:11 hry! 03:06:14 hey! even 03:11:08 hi wildhalcyon 03:11:26 how are you calamari? 03:15:40 fine, yourself? 03:39:59 its been a crazy week 04:16:25 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:39:13 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 04:48:56 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("Whoops, There I go"). 05:32:40 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:36:17 -!- grim__ has joined. 06:48:48 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:27:52 -!- calamari has joined. 08:27:55 hi 08:57:04 -!- jix has joined. 09:14:47 -!- int-e has joined. 10:30:26 -!- grim_ has joined. 10:37:57 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 11:01:08 -!- grim_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:01:40 -!- grim_ has joined. 11:02:53 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 11:41:20 -!- grim_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:41:52 -!- grim_ has joined. 11:57:41 -!- grim__ has joined. 12:06:27 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 12:10:14 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:14:36 -!- grim_ has joined. 12:20:20 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:20:20 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:21:20 -!- grim_ has joined. 12:46:18 -!- grim__ has joined. 12:51:05 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:56:06 -!- grim__ has joined. 12:56:38 -!- jix has joined. 12:58:51 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:05:13 -!- J|x has joined. 13:06:50 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 13:06:52 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 13:14:32 -!- kipple has joined. 13:23:11 -!- grim_ has joined. 13:35:43 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:56:18 -!- grim__ has joined. 14:08:50 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:24:25 -!- grim_ has joined. 14:37:01 whoa 14:37:05 too many grim_s 14:39:58 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:54:07 -!- sp3tt has joined. 14:55:28 -!- grim__ has joined. 15:07:59 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:19:32 -!- nooga has joined. 15:19:42 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit). 15:20:07 -!- nooga has joined. 15:20:34 -!- grim_ has joined. 15:33:04 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:35:58 ~ hello 16:03:55 -!- grim__ has joined. 16:16:28 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:20:04 -!- grim_ has joined. 16:29:32 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:32:21 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:39:30 -!- grim_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:40:02 -!- grim_ has joined. 16:48:43 -!- grim__ has joined. 16:52:13 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:57:30 -!- grim__ has joined. 17:01:19 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:27:58 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:43:48 -!- grim_ has joined. 17:51:28 -!- grim__ has joined. 18:04:04 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:23:05 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 19:33:49 -!- J|x has joined. 19:36:48 ARGH! 19:36:52 and not the language either 19:38:56 Im having trouble deciding on data types 19:42:16 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:45:24 -!- J|x has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:45:28 Im thinking of modelling the datatypes after the B language - a single datatype which acts as a 32-bit signed integer OR a 4-byte character string. 19:45:30 -!- J|x has joined. 19:46:02 The other alternative is to have each element be an arbitrarily long byte list which can act as an arbitrarily long signed int or a character string 19:49:05 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 20:01:10 -!- J|x has joined. 20:01:34 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:01:40 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 20:04:57 -!- grim__ has changed nick to grim_. 20:08:48 well 20:09:08 my connection is fucked inside-out and backwards today 20:10:50 and the connection from my shell account to freenode is also toilet 20:12:08 best give up and try again another time 20:12:13 laters ppl 20:12:16 -!- grim_ has left (?). 20:14:26 -!- J|x has joined. 20:14:48 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:14:51 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 20:44:47 -!- sp3tt has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 21:10:43 -!- Keymaker has joined. 21:10:50 'ello. 21:30:18 -!- Wildhalcyon_ has joined. 21:30:26 Hey Keymaker! 21:32:40 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:32:46 -!- Wildhalcyon_ has changed nick to Wildhalcyon. 21:33:33 hello 21:33:44 Are you familiar with Smurf? 21:33:50 some language? 21:33:55 yes 21:33:58 sorry, nope 21:34:43 i'm working on a gammaplex demo at the moment 21:34:45 Hmm, alright. Its pretty much string-oriented 21:34:51 Gammaplex is crazy! :-) 21:34:51 ok 21:34:56 yes :) 21:35:21 Im working on a fungeoid as well 21:35:24 i should browse the logs to find one piece of info i asked aardwolf about random number.. 21:35:31 More string, less I/O craziness 21:35:32 ah 21:37:11 Im thinking about ways to use A-Z to serve as landmarks. There aren't any absolute coordinates in my language 21:37:40 ok 21:37:51 It would be nice to remember where something is after you've... left it. 21:38:41 I was thinking of the way that Smurf stored variables as any valid string - even the null string. 21:38:49 So what random number business are you wondering about? 21:40:51 i'm trying to get a value between 0 and 300 21:41:30 ok 21:42:28 ..but i guess now i have to wait aardwolf because i can't get it working.. 21:46:17 What about 300K*o 21:49:09 hmm 21:49:37 not sure if it works.. 21:50:13 300K*o i R >< 21:50:21 it prints always 0.. 21:52:07 Hmm, thats strange 21:52:17 is there some kind of seeding mechanism that needs to be done... or something? 21:52:25 no idea 21:52:54 can't remember seeing anything in the spec 21:53:29 I dont see anything either 21:54:03 It seems like its either the PRNG, the rounding, or the "print integer" functions are failing 21:54:03 i hope it's possible though.. 21:54:15 It should be, I mean.. that's what the random number generator is there fore 21:54:21 :) 21:55:00 well, i guess i can't get really started until aardwolf is here 21:55:11 whenever i see him.. 21:56:18 Good luck 21:56:46 You could maybe email him as well 21:56:52 yeah 22:16:35 -!- Sgep has joined. 22:16:51 Hi all 22:17:01 -!- telemakh0s has joined. 22:17:39 hello 22:17:53 hey... I'm looking for a language that's easily to generate correct code in... I.e. I'm doing genetic algorithms and need to be able to generate and modify code programmatically... 22:18:09 brainfuck? :) 22:18:37 that's the closest easy-generatable one that comes to my mind 22:19:16 hmm... brainfuck is a bit slow, maybe something with more instructions? i.e. a language that isn't going to require a high program to do anything interesting in... 22:19:31 s/high/large/ 22:19:57 brainfuck is fast, but the interpreters aren't optimizing enough ;) 22:20:19 lol 22:20:31 that's true 22:20:51 with that argument all languages are equally fast, it's just that the compilers aren't equalling optinizing :P 22:20:59 yes 22:21:37 anyways; many small brainfuck programs do something interesting 22:21:42 but i got your point though 22:21:51 ;0 22:21:55 er, ;) 22:22:06 you can naturally made something own language if you have ideas for instructions 22:22:19 but remember bf has everything needed, and in perfect symmetry 22:22:48 true... 22:24:51 what are genetic algorithms, anyways? 22:27:21 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithms 22:28:25 aha 22:29:47 yet another we-don't-know-what-we're-doing-so-let's-just-shoot-in-the-dark-aimlessly-and-hope-we-hit-something-technique. 22:31:56 :) 22:32:00 I like to call it the 10000 monkey's approach... 22:32:13 lol 22:53:09 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:59:43 telemakh0s? 23:02:26 I'd check out the article "The Evolutionary Origin of Complex Features" by Richard Lenski et al 23:02:58 Im having trouble finding a link online, but I have a local pdf copy if you would like me to email it to you 23:03:20 It details some of the effects on programming language mechanics in digital organisms 23:03:58 How 'lethal' or deleterious an instruction mutation would be. 23:06:10 If you're looking at esolangs, simple is good - brainfuck is good, maybe an 'optimized' bf varient that can work with integers instead of ++ and -- and uses a binary gray code 23:08:51 a false varient (maybe OWL - see BogusForth), or Smurf (small, hard to screw up instruction set) and maybe nooga's SADOL, but I haven't looked at that one enough. 23:10:49 digital organisms don't work well with GOTO statements in general, but maybe Spaghetti might be interesting? 23:30:46 -!- calamari has joined. 23:30:50 hi 23:30:54 hello 23:30:55 hey calamari 23:30:59 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 23:31:06 hi Keymaker, Wildhalcyon 23:31:17 Anything exciting going on? 23:31:26 -!- ihope has joined. 23:31:35 I was working on a way to stork class files in the wiki 23:31:52 Hmm, this is IRC? :-) 23:31:56 I can convert them to a 6/7 bit format (html compatible) 23:31:59 hi ihope 23:32:04 Hello :-) 23:32:06 i hope so :D 23:32:22 Heh. I came here to try to write an IRP program. 23:32:32 ok 23:32:55 it uses 91 characters, which isn't an even power of two, but I came up with a scheme that if it were in a certain range the output would be 7 bits, otherwise it'd be 6 bits.. which I can decode 23:33:22 Ahem: "Everybody, will you all *please* try to act as if intelligent?" ;-) 23:33:34 this means the efficiency of my encoding is in between 6 and 7 bits 23:33:46 :) 23:33:58 IRP: SEGMENTATION FAULT; ERROR ACCESSING REGISTER #INTELLIGENT 23:34:05 hehe 23:34:34 but at least you said please ihope 23:35:59 Wildhalcyon: anyways, the hope is that I'll be able to have actual programs visible in EsoShell, then people could encode their program and copy it on too.. wouldn't have to ask permission, etc 23:36:13 Hmm, assuming everyone acts politely, I think that there would be a method to define IPR as being TC given an IRC channel with enough people. 23:36:48 Calamari: That sounds nice 23:37:06 Oh, uh: just what is EsoShell? :-) 23:37:23 ihope: http://esoshell.kidsquid.com/ 23:37:45 ihope: it allows you to use certain esoteric languages straight from your web browser 23:37:53 Hmm, cool :-) 23:37:56 I don't think a bf varient that allows arbitrary-sized integers and negative numbers is TC. 23:38:17 it's quite primitive at this point, but I expect that I'll keep improving it 23:39:07 wildhalcyon: why not? just don't use the negative numbers 23:39:11 * Sgep is using konq, and can't figure out Java, so I can't really see EsoShell :-( 23:39:23 * Sgep heads to #kde 23:39:46 Sgep: does this work? http://www.masswerk.at/jsuix/ 23:39:49 Wildhalcyon: wtf? why wouldn't it be? 23:40:13 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:41:11 Yes, but that's JavaScript 23:41:19 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 23:41:27 Bah. Dumb computer 23:41:30 :-) 23:41:40 re Wildhalcyon 23:41:44 It likes to freeze and hate me 23:42:08 sgep: what online languages can you use beesides javascript? 23:42:20 or is that pretty much it? 23:42:25 PLUS I was working on my specification, which is hopefully due to be finished this weekend 23:42:43 I wish notepad had a file restoration feature... 23:42:52 Hmm? 23:43:09 why are you using notepad 23:43:14 windows xp? 23:43:16 Heh... 23:43:28 Well, Im not using notepad 23:43:30 Im using metapad 23:44:08 but the same problem creeps up. Incidentally, this particular computer isn't a big fan of linux. The sound card and my modem don't have linux drivers, making it pretty hard to enjoy 23:45:05 * ihope "dislikes" devices without Linux drivers 23:45:37 Wildhalcyon: yeah, not having sound is no fun 23:46:05 Anyhow, lament - it wouldn't be because you couldn't initialize a cell to 0 without potentially entering an infinite loop, that I know of. 23:46:06 Well, NetHack's sounds still work fine on any sound card. 23:46:13 have you tried an ubuntu hoary live cd? you might have sound 23:46:19 consider -[-] 23:46:38 Hmm: [-]-[-]? 23:46:50 ihope: that'd go to -inf 23:46:57 twice! 23:47:02 just once 23:47:13 because [ stops at 0 23:47:32 that's why if ou stay in the positive numbers, you should be fine 23:47:35 sorry,I was assuming the initial value was less than 0. 23:47:53 Make it halt on negatives as well, I'd guess? 23:48:02 You would have to 23:48:10 you can do [+] if you're in the negatives 23:48:21 But there's no way to KNOW whether you're positive or negative 23:48:26 Aye... 23:48:42 I thought it was defined that the memory array was zeroed on start 23:49:39 Well, as I said, [-] while negative infinite loops, and [+] while positive infinite loops. 23:49:46 It doesn't need to be that sufficient. Just that you can't have user input. 23:50:05 You can have initial values on the tape - you'll know what they are, and hence can program around them. 23:50:18 You can't do that with nondeterministic user input that could be negative 23:50:19 what about a scheme like this: 0 -1 1 -2 2 -3 3 etc.. then you can do [-] 23:50:20 How about making + move farther away from zero (up if at zero) and - move closer to zero (down if at zero)? 23:50:50 That could work too ihope. A little funny on the mathematics, but it could work 23:50:56 :-) 23:51:18 I like that better :) 23:52:00 Alright, so there is a way to keep it TC 23:52:03 I stand corrected :-) 23:52:12 Or have an infinite loop autodetect thing, but that'd be tricky :-) 23:52:32 Wildhalcyon: you irc withotu a chair? :P 23:52:34 by the way, is one stack enough for turing complete language's memory, if the stack can be reversed? 23:52:45 chair? 23:52:48 I have a chair 23:52:55 you said you stand corrected.. 23:52:59 oh 23:53:01 :) 23:53:02 Well, sometimes I get up from it 23:53:19 I sit uncorrected, stand corrected. 23:53:26 anyways, did anyone catch my guestion..? 23:53:33 I did. 23:53:34 I did, thinking about a response Key 23:53:41 it'd be neat to be able to use a single stack 23:53:44 ok 23:53:53 Im using a single "stack" in my language. 23:54:00 I think it'd be sufficient: just have a special value that, when hit, has you reverse the stack? 23:54:00 i'm planning a new language at the moment 23:54:22 It's implemented as a circular list - so you can rotate the elements forward and backwards, with stack pushing/popping at the current position in the list. 23:54:36 Hmm, sounds cool :-) 23:54:36 hey, that's neat idea 23:54:46 I'm still trying to determine whether allowing only a single loop is still tc 23:54:51 it's kinda like wrapping array with stack elements :) 23:54:59 You mean not being able to nest them? 23:55:01 Including dup and swap, and you can rearrange the stack any way you like 23:55:29 btw, what dup did? 23:55:39 Pop push push? :-) 23:55:42 ihope: yeah.. it'd be a signle loop[ from the end to the start 23:55:47 ok 23:55:57 dup == duplicates top stack element {a -- a a} 23:56:09 swap == {a b -- b a} 23:56:13 yeah 23:56:38 Well, if you clone Brainf*** in it, that means it's Turing-complete :-) 23:56:50 well, not necessarily 23:57:03 you can have partial bf interpreter in befunge 93 :) 23:57:12 or even in trigger 23:57:13 If you implement it *perfectly* ;-) 23:57:25 yes, then :) 23:57:39 Well, yes I think it would be. To make an inner loop, just skip to the end of the outer loop then skip back to the inner one. 23:57:53 I liked the befunge-93 spec a lot, except for the 80 x 25 definition 23:58:04 ihope: yeah it'd be cool :) 23:58:10 i liked especially the 80x25 definition 23:58:16 i like the limitations in stuff 23:58:19 Isn't that how spaghetti does its looping? 23:58:36 Wildhalcyon: spagetti eforces a goto after each statement :) 23:58:55 Right now, my fungeoid's biggest limitation is no jumping. 23:59:17 and I think I put in an error if you tried to jump to the next higher line number 23:59:28 Calamari: I know - it skips to another loop, so there's not really any looping. 23:59:55 Calamari - that was evil, in a great way 23:59:56 Wildhalcyon: you could jump 1 2 3 1.. or 1 2 3 2