00:04:32 <GregorR> lol
00:04:34 <GregorR> Output
00:04:36 <GregorR> :P
00:25:19 <kipple> ha! it actually worked :D
00:50:31 <Aardwolf> cool!
00:50:35 <Aardwolf> im off bye
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04:22:20 <GregorR> That was some tasty imitation Chinese food.
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05:12:07 <{^Raven^}> *shadows
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07:15:59 <calamari> hi
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13:46:35 <wildhalcyon> Hey all
13:47:18 <jix> hey wildhalcyon 
13:47:30 <wildhalcyon> How are you Jix?
13:48:13 <wildhalcyon> I miss my computer. :-( without internet, its a cheap screensaver
13:48:43 <jix> i have a cold
13:49:23 <wildhalcyon> oohh, that sucks
13:49:37 <jix> yes.. it does
13:49:43 <wildhalcyon> Im putting off studying for my midterm in 45 minutes :-D
13:52:28 <wildhalcyon> mostly because I actually HAVE internet while Im in my lab on campus
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13:53:37 <wildhalcyon> jix: Kipple and I were having some issues with a symbol-wise reverse operator. I'm thinking that its a fairly useless appendage instruction that could be better replaced by something more powerful (read: esoteric)
13:53:44 <wildhalcyon> This is all in glypho, mind you
13:54:22 <jix> hmm what's the latest glypho spec?
13:55:30 <wildhalcyon> It hasn't changed since adding the brackets
13:55:47 <jix> my interpreter is out of date...
13:55:55 <wildhalcyon> But we were looking at implementing it, and he wanted an example of a program that uses reverse, and I didn't have one
13:56:14 <wildhalcyon> I know, and its not your fault jix, its my fault, me and my indecisiveness
13:57:19 <jix> maybe add a gcd operation
13:57:45 <jix> that makes implementing of rational numbers easier
13:59:08 <wildhalcyon> I like rational numbers
13:59:34 <wildhalcyon> I was think maybe a modulo operator
13:59:52 <wildhalcyon> No division operation, mind you, just modulo
14:00:18 <jix> modulu is easy to implement with test and sub
14:00:54 <wildhalcyon> Yes, it is
14:01:41 <wildhalcyon> Hence, integer division is easy as well
14:02:07 <jix> gcd is easy too
14:02:14 <jix> hmmm COSine!
14:02:21 <wildhalcyon> so, those aren't very good
14:02:25 <jix> cos(x)*10000
14:02:42 <wildhalcyon> cos(x)*2^32
14:02:56 <jix> ok
14:03:05 <jix> nahr
14:03:12 <jix> cos(x)*(2^32-1)
14:03:27 <wildhalcyon> probably  better
14:03:48 <jix> cos(x)*(2^32-0.5)-0.5 ?
14:04:25 <wildhalcyon> Im{e^ix}
14:04:46 <wildhalcyon> no, not e... Im{i^(ix)}
14:05:10 <jix> hm?
14:05:16 <jix> why not e?
14:05:20 <wildhalcyon> filling in a needless extra instruction is hard!
14:05:33 <wildhalcyon> I don't know, e seems too conventional
14:05:39 <jix> 1/2*(e^ix+e^-ix)
14:05:56 <wildhalcyon> thats just COS again
14:06:04 <jix> hrhr yes
14:06:12 <jix> 1/2*(e^x+e^-x)
14:06:24 <jix> cosh....
14:07:26 <wildhalcyon> What about replacing n with Bn, where Bn is the nth Bell Number (related to the symbol-less encoding Im using)
14:07:34 <wildhalcyon> except that they grow very large very quickly
14:09:58 <wildhalcyon> bbl, gotta take a test...
15:14:36 <kipple> I think a random function would be nice. That's something that can't be done with the current set
15:15:41 <kipple> something like: random: pops two values from the stack and pushes a random number in the range specified by the two popped values
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16:12:17 <wildhalcyon> kipple: all you would need to do is pop one variable for the size of the range, and then add the minimum to the size
16:13:26 <wildhalcyon> rngs are nice, but it leaves open the possibility of someone implementing the instruction in an incredibly stupid manner. Plus, it would be the only non-deterministic instruction in the whole set
16:14:54 <wildhalcyon> We'll see. I'm going to go home and find out if I have internet again (or if I'll ever have internet again, ever.)
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17:11:21 -!- nooga has joined.
17:11:25 <nooga> hello
17:14:49 -!- Keymaker has joined.
17:14:55 <Keymaker> good mornin'
17:14:58 <jix> moin nooga, Keymaker 
17:15:03 <Keymaker> moin
17:15:10 <nooga> hi Keymaker
17:15:12 <Keymaker> (or actually it's 19 pm here but who cares..)
17:15:12 <Keymaker> hi
17:15:33 <Keymaker> lol, i mean 7 pm
17:15:49 <nooga> i've got 18:15
17:15:52 <Keymaker> i always use am and pm with the format that doesn't use them :)
17:16:00 <Keymaker> ok
17:16:05 <nooga> i like 24h format
17:16:08 <Keymaker> yes
17:16:12 <nooga> it's more natural for me
17:16:18 <Keymaker> yes, for me too
17:16:26 <Keymaker> but i still add am and pm there for some reason :)
17:16:34 <Keymaker> but well, my days are 48 hours ;)
17:16:41 <nooga> :>
17:17:24 <jix> 18:16 here
17:17:59 <jix> 18:17:01<jix>18:16 here
17:18:01 <jix> d'oh
17:18:15 <Keymaker> hehe
17:18:56 <nooga> now i'm thinkin' about my new language - o-o
17:19:12 <nooga> here's what i've got for now: http://agentj.kewlnet.int.pl/wysypisko/uploads/oo.txt
17:19:14 <jix> o-o == 0
17:20:02 <nooga> it's more like: o<link>o
17:20:15 <jix> o—o ?
17:20:47 <nooga> what? i can see only some werid signs...
17:20:57 <jix> i'm using utf8
17:21:26 <jix> it was o&mdash;o
17:22:10 <nooga> mhm
17:22:59 <jix> lol in ndash has the same length as n but mdash is too large
17:23:11 <jix> in lucida grande it's the other way around
17:23:48 <nooga> i think that each node in o-o should have additional stack for internal use
17:24:01 <nooga> hah
17:35:32 <nooga> i've got tolearn ruby
17:36:17 <Keymaker> yeah, that could be useful
17:36:22 <Keymaker> (for me too)
17:37:33 <nooga> from those interpreted langs i know perl, python a bit, and PHP
17:37:40 <jix> q: what does if 0;puts "Hello";end in ruby
17:38:12 <nooga> a: prints "Hello"?
17:38:19 <jix> right
17:39:00 <jix> everything except nil and false evaluates to true in conditions
17:39:23 <jix> and everything (including nil) is an object
17:40:33 <nooga> woh
17:42:01 <jix> classes are objects too
17:42:40 <jix> and the Class object is an instance of itself
17:43:02 <Keymaker> is puts like echo in php?
17:43:17 <jix> Keymaker: no... print is like echo
17:43:25 <Keymaker> ok..
17:43:31 <jix> puts "Hello" == puts "Hello\n" 
17:43:37 <Keymaker> ah, ok
17:43:44 <jix> puts checks for a \n at the end of a string and if it is missing it appends one
17:43:53 <Keymaker> ok
17:43:59 <Keymaker> what taht 0; does?
17:44:02 <Keymaker> *that
17:44:28 <jix> replace ; with \n (ruby needs no ; only if you put more than 1 lines on one line)
17:45:11 <jix> it's like if(0)printf("Hello\n"); in c (with the difference that in c 0 == false in ruby 0 (in conditions) == true)
17:46:47 <Keymaker> oh
17:47:29 <twobitsprite> is Ruby one of those langauges which have only one false value, i.e. "False"?
17:47:40 <jix> no false and nil
17:47:51 <twobitsprite> same effect
17:47:59 <jix> yes
17:53:18 <jix> if you want to check a number for zero just use if bla.zero?
18:14:25 <Keymaker> hmm.. i need name
18:17:32 <twobitsprite> is it possible to have a turing complete prorgamming language where & is the only operation?
18:17:46 <Keymaker> probably not
18:17:50 <Keymaker> no
18:18:06 <Keymaker> or wait..
18:18:12 <Keymaker> not sure :)
18:18:16 <twobitsprite> what if I added a stack, and made & a stack function?
18:19:12 <Keymaker> not sure. as far as i know there must be way to move back or jump some part in the program. as well as access memory other than single stack
18:19:42 <twobitsprite> hmm
18:20:06 <Keymaker> ..but limited languages are interesting, so go ahead and try :D
18:20:17 <twobitsprite> I might
18:20:24 <Keymaker> o-k
18:21:13 <Keymaker> it can be often(?) that languages that aren't planned to be turing-complete happen to be (or vice versa)
18:21:15 <jix> you need ~(a & b) (nand) for turing completeness and ram and conditional or computed code jumps
18:21:32 <jix> for tc
18:21:54 <Keymaker> why not-and?
18:22:39 <Keymaker> *not(and)
18:33:01 <Keymaker> hmmm, i wonder if i should add two stacks to my language, to make sure it is turing-complete. i'm really not sure at all if reversing the stack instruction will make it suitable for being tc
18:36:25 <Keymaker> or well, i'll try first making programs with only one reversible stack and see if the other is necessary.
18:37:10 <Keymaker> jix: would you have time to write another interpreter ;) (in c if possible)
18:39:07 <Keymaker> ..but there's no hurry..
18:39:21 <Keymaker> i think i'll need to do changes again..
18:40:43 <Keymaker> anyways, going now..
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18:46:54 <twobitsprite> jix: rem conditional?
18:46:58 <twobitsprite> s/rem/ram/
19:12:23 <twobitsprite> would an implicit loop work to replace being able to jump in the code?
19:13:48 <jix> yes
19:19:24 <nooga> hm
19:19:28 <nooga> so
19:19:38 <nooga> what do you guys think about o-o?
19:19:45 <nooga> in it's current shape?
19:19:52 <nooga> some suggestions?
19:19:52 <twobitsprite> object orientation?
19:20:11 <nooga> o-o language ;p
19:20:21 <nooga>  http://agentj.kewlnet.int.pl/wysypisko/uploads/oo.txt
19:20:21 <twobitsprite> not familiar
19:20:55 <twobitsprite> well.. first off, you need some line-breaks in your web-page
19:21:19 <nooga> eh, it's a txt file
19:21:25 <nooga> but if you really want...
19:21:40 <kipple> some browsers (like mine) doesn't wrap lines in txt files :(
19:21:49 <twobitsprite> mine either
19:22:11 <nooga> oh damnit
19:22:15 <nooga> wait a sec
19:28:33 <nooga> nooga.kewlnet.int.pl/oo.html
19:28:37 <nooga> http://nooga.kewlnet.int.pl/oo.html
19:28:42 <nooga> here ;p
19:29:30 <twobitsprite> a bit better
19:29:38 <nooga> ~~~;p
19:30:38 <nooga> haaaah, damnit!
19:30:41 <nooga> got 2 go
19:30:44 <nooga> bye
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20:09:25 <Wildhalcyon> Haha! my internet not only works, it works WELL!
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20:17:24 <jix> i'm stupid
20:17:35 <jix> i'm typing 5 lines of irc msgs into my c source
20:24:04 <jix> i'm working on a ultimate compressor
20:25:57 <jix> a rangecoder with a super-intielligent (stupid) model
20:33:43 <jix> in a threadsafe flexible library
20:33:48 <jix> and no one cares :(
20:38:35 <jix> there is no irc channel about compression
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20:39:09 <jix> 21:09:04<Wildhalcyon>Haha! my internet not only works, it works WELL! << really?
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21:45:35 <twobitsprite> would a command to jump to the beginning of a program be touring complete?
21:45:47 <twobitsprite> it would be like tail recursion
21:45:58 <twobitsprite> or a state machine
22:02:41 <lindi-> twobitsprite: how can a command be turing complete or not?
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22:12:24 <GregorR-L> Blam!
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22:15:44 <kipple> Kaboom!
22:17:00 <Wildhalcyon> yeah, something akin to that
22:19:52 <Wildhalcyon> I think Transcipt needs some method of manipulating input strings
22:24:52 <kipple> agreed. there's not much string manipulation that can be done
22:26:08 <kipple> another suggestion for the 15th Glypho op: output top value as ASCII
22:27:00 <kipple> or pop value, convert to ASCII, then push again
22:30:06 <GregorR-L> Wouldn't that just be /too easy/?
22:30:23 <kipple> perhaps
22:31:26 <Wildhalcyon> maybe, just maybe
22:31:44 <kipple> extremely useful in any case :)
22:32:10 <Wildhalcyon> Im thinking of just keeping it a "free-for-all" implementation-dependent instruction
22:32:22 <kipple> hehe. interesting
22:32:57 <kipple> an Undefined behavior instruction ;)
22:32:58 <GregorR-L> Humm..
22:33:22 <GregorR-L> But then what happens when the proprietary implementation from Microsoft has a useful command and everybody gloms onto it?
22:33:43 <kipple> then Wildhalcyen gets stinkin' rich
22:33:49 <kipple> wouldn't want that to happen
22:33:51 <Wildhalcyon> muahahahaha!
22:34:20 <Wildhalcyon> we wouldn't?
22:34:27 <GregorR-L> No he wouldn't!
22:34:32 <GregorR-L> That's the whole problem!
22:34:38 <Wildhalcyon> hmm... kipple, I value your input, but not this time!
22:34:47 <Wildhalcyon> oh..
22:34:49 <Wildhalcyon> hmm
22:35:01 <GregorR-L> Micro$oft would get stinkin' richer.
22:35:09 <GregorR-L> And Wildhalcyon would get stinkin' credit but no $$$ :-P
22:35:12 <Wildhalcyon> dumb microsuck
22:35:35 <Wildhalcyon> I like street cred
22:35:53 <GregorR-L> But it's street cred associated with Microsoft.
22:35:57 <Wildhalcyon> ewww
22:36:07 <Wildhalcyon> get it off! get it off!!!
22:36:09 <GregorR-L> That's like the street cred from being a Visual Basic guru :-P
22:36:14 <kipple> haha
22:36:26 <Wildhalcyon> hahaha
22:36:54 * kipple writes C# and a bit of VB for a living.... 
22:37:08 * GregorR-L vomits.
22:37:15 * GregorR-L wipes his mouth.
22:37:23 * GregorR-L writes PHP and a bit of C for a living!
22:37:53 <kipple> VB sucks, but C# is actually quite nice (except for the microsoft issue)
22:37:55 <Wildhalcyon> lol, hmm.. vicious fight breaks
22:38:24 <Wildhalcyon> out*
22:38:24 * GregorR-L wonders what that means.
22:38:29 <GregorR-L> Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
22:38:39 <GregorR-L> C# is an insult to music :-P
22:38:54 <kipple> hehe
22:38:55 <Wildhalcyon> microsoft is an insult to small, plyable objects
22:39:01 <GregorR-L> lol
22:40:06 * kipple is a java fan and C# is pretty close
22:40:22 <Wildhalcyon> I had a great one-liner about the "made easy" programming series and somebody's mom, but it didn't pan out.
22:40:37 <GregorR-L> lol
22:40:53 * Wildhalcyon is *not* a java fan, but respects the need to develop a platform independent programming language
22:40:59 <GregorR-L> Wildhalcyon was working on it in his joke lab in the basement, but a lab accident caused an explosion that killed ... his MOM AHAHAHAHAHA
22:41:51 <kipple> he said *somebody's mom*, not his. the question is: what was she doing in his basement?
22:42:10 <GregorR-L> Wildhalcyon: There are plenty of platform independent programming languages ... just most of them compile to platform specific machine code.
22:42:44 <Wildhalcyon> Sadly, Gregor assumes that I am rich enough to afford a basement, and am not, as reality would like to object, forced to keep his outdated computer in the livingroom, next to the television.
22:43:06 <kipple> java applets are very nice for the web, and the only competition there (that I'm aware of) is Flash...
22:43:12 <Wildhalcyon> Gregor: then whats the advantage of Java?
22:43:41 <Wildhalcyon> applets could easily be superceded by Gammaplex applets imo
22:43:54 <kipple> define "easlily" ;)
22:43:56 <Wildhalcyon> now THAT'S a programming language
22:44:42 <GregorR-L> Wildhalcyon: Java sports a platform independent virtual machine, that's what.
22:44:52 <Wildhalcyon> kipple: simply port every known applet everywhere into esoteric Gammaplex, then write a gammaplex applet extension for every version of every popular web browser
22:45:07 <GregorR-L> If somebody made a virtual platform that one could compile C to, then made VMs for major platforms, it would work just as well.
22:45:18 <GregorR-L> (Except that Java is made to be especially suited for a VM)
22:45:36 <Wildhalcyon> I understand that much, I just think its too clunky.
22:46:26 * GregorR-L starts work on the CVM :-P
22:46:28 <Wildhalcyon> When I bought visual studio my freshman year of college, it came with a giant poster indentifying all the classes and their inheritance characteristics. Yuck.
22:46:40 <Wildhalcyon> Isnt there a Forth or Joy VM?
22:48:03 <GregorR-L> Idonno *shrugs*
22:48:32 <Wildhalcyon> Forth is a d ecent language, 
22:48:43 <Wildhalcyon> I think it needs improvements, but its got a nice foundation
22:50:17 <kipple> one of the nice things about the Java VM (or microsofts CLR for that matter) is that they're not bound to a specific language. there are several compilers for other langs to java bytecode
22:57:07 <kipple> a multiple esolang to java byte code compiler would be cool
22:58:09 <Wildhalcyon> glypho is easy. Most tarpits are relatively easy to put into higher-level languages
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