2005-09-01: 01:25:02 -!- heatsink has joined. 01:44:23 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 03:36:35 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:42:15 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 03:50:31 YAY! My crosslibc halts now 8-D 03:50:38 And it supports printf 8-D 04:08:26 you mean I'll actually get my prompt back if I try those programs? 04:12:47 Yup XD 04:22:09 svn co svn://idia.codu.org/crosslibc/crosslibc/trunk crosslibc 04:22:13 If anybody's interested. 04:53:23 YES!!!! printf is now working on Linux, {Free,Net}BSD and Solaris :) 06:01:38 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 06:10:42 -!- int-e has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:12:53 -!- int-e has joined. 06:47:41 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("leafChat IRC client: http://www.leafdigital.com/Software/leafChat/"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:23:53 Hmm, anybody have an OpenDarwin/x86 box they can test this on? 08:24:47 Or GNU/Darwin. 08:24:52 Or any other Darwin, really. 08:31:06 -!- kipple has joined. 08:52:41 -!- lindi- has joined. 09:49:27 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 11:17:59 -!- int-e has joined. 11:51:38 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 11:55:38 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:30:42 -!- jix has joined. 16:45:00 -!- int-e has left (?). 16:47:43 -!- nooga has joined. 16:47:51 hello 16:56:29 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 17:08:41 howdy all 17:32:26 hi :. 17:39:53 What I miss? 17:51:54 -!- nooga has quit. 17:57:38 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("leafChat IRC client: http://www.leafdigital.com/Software/leafChat/"). 20:31:53 -!- guillaumh has joined. 21:27:20 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:42:37 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 22:30:49 -!- guillaumh has left (?). 23:04:38 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:07:09 -!- Keymaker has joined. 23:07:17 'ello 23:07:34 whose idea was to make a logo with lemons to esowiki? :) 23:28:56 bye. 23:28:58 -!- Keymaker has quit ("I've seen this déjà vu before.."). 2005-09-02: 00:03:52 -!- Wrrrtbt has joined. 00:03:54 -!- Wrrrtbt has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:04:22 -!- Wrrrtbt has joined. 00:04:23 -!- Wrrrtbt has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:43:49 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 00:44:44 cool new picture :) 00:47:11 What's the URL for these proposed logos? 00:48:03 no idea 01:02:28 -!- Aardwolf has quit ("Ik zen der is mee weg"). 04:01:40 -!- CXII has joined. 04:07:55 -!- CXI has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:07:55 -!- pgimeno has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:21:14 -!- pgimeno has joined. 04:40:19 -!- CXII has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:40:45 -!- CXII has joined. 05:04:15 -!- puzzlet has quit ("Changing server"). 05:04:41 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:05:59 -!- puzzlet has quit (Client Quit). 05:08:23 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:32:13 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:19:58 -!- int-e has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:40:53 -!- kipple has joined. 10:43:37 -!- puzzlet has left (?). 10:44:39 -!- puzzlet has joined. 10:50:39 argh, i think i forgot my nickserv password 13:04:59 -!- int-e has left (?). 13:19:38 -!- jix has joined. 13:20:06 moin 16:04:28 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 16:10:47 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("leafChat IRC client: http://www.leafdigital.com/Software/leafChat/"). 16:16:30 -!- sp3tt has joined. 16:17:45 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/css-brainfuck.txt o.0 Way too much time on his hands. 16:54:27 -!- puzzlet has quit (Client Quit). 16:57:53 -!- puzzlet has joined. 17:18:46 -!- cpressey has quit ("leaving"). 17:24:21 -!- cpressey has joined. 17:31:54 -!- ZeroOne_ has changed nick to ZeroOne. 18:01:41 -!- sp3tt has quit (Client Quit). 19:11:54 -!- jix has left (?). 19:11:57 -!- jix has joined. 20:23:52 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 21:00:39 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 21:25:41 -!- fungebob_away has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 22:13:28 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:24:49 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 22:29:28 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:55:01 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("Leaving"). 2005-09-03: 01:02:34 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:36:11 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 01:38:37 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:09:05 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 03:35:10 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:28:58 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 05:05:15 -!- calamari_ has joined. 05:05:46 hi 05:08:59 hi 05:12:00 I think Im almost done with my spec 05:12:12 its actually turned into two languages, which is fine by me 05:15:30 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:38:11 -!- fleft has joined. 06:20:06 -!- fleft has quit ("Leaving"). 07:27:27 -!- kubient has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:19:20 -!- jix has joined. 09:22:06 -!- calamari- has joined. 09:25:22 -!- calamari_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:06:14 hmm.. is it filesystem or file system? 10:07:08 both are used 10:12:05 this wiki filesystem thing is turning out to be a lot of work. Before I can even mess with the wiki stuff, I've had to do a rewrite of my file system handling. 10:12:34 should be a lot easier to add new file systems in the future, though :) 10:41:52 cool.. http://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoShell:Brainfuck?action=raw 10:42:20 that'll make loading files easier and faster too 11:25:54 -!- kipple has joined. 11:32:40 hi kipple 11:38:03 hello 12:08:14 -!- sp3tt has joined. 12:47:08 -!- sp3tt_ has joined. 12:47:20 -!- sp3tt_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:06:55 -!- sp3tt has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:21:49 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 13:24:27 -!- calamari- has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:00:40 -!- wildhalcyon_ has joined. 15:05:36 -!- wildhalcyon_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:18:45 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:53:28 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 16:18:33 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:19:24 -!- cmeme has joined. 16:20:05 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:20:49 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:33:41 ... 17:37:22 i'm doing a new language now! 17:37:34 and i'm trying to do the most inconsistent syntax ever! 17:42:09 it's called ElWarte i forgot why... 17:42:22 El is esoteric language.. Warte was an acronyme too 17:54:40 Hmmm, whats inconsistent about it? 17:55:32 i generate it by typing some random special characters on my keyboard OR using too descriptive keywords OR using keywords that just don't fit... 17:56:03 @@^ is a NOP 17:56:33 ABuTB executes A then B 17:57:05 Thats inconsistent alright 17:57:23 @@^BuT@@^ does nothing 2 times 17:58:05 What would @@^BuTBuT@@^ do? Anything? 17:58:13 syntax error 17:58:24 expressions may not be empty 17:58:32 darn 17:58:46 they may be empty in some special syntax cases 17:58:50 but not in that case ;) 18:00:11 it has 3 data types 18:00:17 array string and number 18:00:21 number is bignum or float 18:00:57 it does automatic type conversation (because that can cause stupid errors) 18:02:09 _WHom! is going to be the comparison operator 2005-09-04: 00:21:42 -!- clog has joined. 00:21:42 -!- clog has joined. 02:20:49 -!- kubient has quit ("running(out)"). 02:29:45 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:34:03 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 04:21:31 -!- CXII has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:21:53 -!- CXII has joined. 05:02:58 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:37:20 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 05:40:19 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:34:24 -!- int-e has quit ("Bye!"). 10:41:08 -!- ChanServ has quit (Shutting Down). 11:10:41 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:12:58 -!- ChanServ has joined. 11:12:58 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 11:13:25 -!- jix has joined. 11:14:14 -!- int-e has joined. 11:20:33 -!- kipple has joined. 12:06:34 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 12:28:25 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:01:35 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:21:13 -!- xyzz1 has joined. 16:04:03 -!- xyzz1 has left (?). 16:49:56 -!- jix has joined. 16:50:21 re 16:54:48 hail Re, god of sun 16:55:48 ... 17:18:19 lol 17:47:18 -!- sp3tt has joined. 18:18:17 -!- nooga has joined. 18:18:26 hello hello hello 18:39:21 hi hi hi 18:49:37 brb 18:49:39 -!- nooga has quit ("Leaving"). 18:49:55 -!- nooga has joined. 18:53:46 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 18:53:51 ;> 18:55:30 What I miss? 18:56:34 i dont know 18:57:45 Hmm, alright 18:57:53 Ive been very un-eso lately 19:08:25 -!- nooga has quit ("Leaving"). 19:19:44 i want to write a cool brainfuck program... 19:21:21 how cool? 19:21:26 Got anything in mind? 19:22:41 hmm no 19:24:06 calculating pi would be a cool task 19:24:12 but it's a bit too difficult 19:24:22 hmm.. and here I was thinking a MUD 19:24:24 lol 19:24:47 lol 19:25:03 MUD is a bit problematic without sockets or more than 1 IO 19:25:08 bf lacks sophisticated networking 19:25:33 you could get around thaat with an interpreter 19:25:50 my language lacks graphics support, but I hope to implement a tiled game sometime 19:27:27 how to calculate pi without division... 19:27:53 you can do division. it's just a bit hard 19:28:00 and slow 19:28:27 since when did speed become important for vf progs? ;) 19:28:38 well i have to use arbitrary precision anyway... 19:28:53 kipple: since i want to get 10 digits in under 2 days 19:29:00 Hmmm... Im trying to remember how much math was involved in the digit-extractor 19:29:14 decimal is stupid... 19:29:24 Im a hex man myself 19:29:31 it's really cpu intensive to convert binary to decimal 19:29:44 or trit. I have a dream of someday implementing a balanced ternary international character code 19:30:40 there is no 10^n==2^m (where n and m are natural) 19:31:15 that's why we need to use FFTs or complex recursive algorithms for fast binary=>decimal conversion 19:33:07 http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PiFormulas.html has a digit-extration algorithm 19:33:35 yes i know it but its hex 19:33:58 Right, I forgot about that 19:36:33 arbitrary precision division in bf. That should be your first step. At least you could get the gregory workin' 19:38:44 hmm i think i'll write something easier 19:39:23 good idea 19:39:34 how about a befunge interpreter? has that been done yet? ;) 19:39:52 oh, wait. did you say easier? 19:39:54 kipple: hmm befunge 93 should be not too hard 19:40:15 true. it has a very limited code-space 19:40:24 and limited precision 19:42:24 a mtf algorithm 19:53:01 FFT as in fast fourier transform or am I missing something? 19:54:15 yes 19:55:11 does anyone know a good way to FFT non-power-of-two images by the way 19:55:33 i don't know FFT 19:55:46 do you want to compress images? 19:56:22 no, but experiment with their frequency domain 19:56:42 I wrote some C++ stuff to calculate the FFT and edit it and such 19:56:50 it's kinda fun what you can do :) 19:56:55 i don't know much about FFTs 19:57:17 i just know that they do something similar but not equal to wavelet transformations 19:57:48 I think the FT is the best known transformation, and wavelet is some much more complex modern thing :) 19:58:06 wavelet is simpler than FFT 19:58:26 it's just hard to find good informations about it 19:59:36 the easiest wavelet transformation is..(Haar wavelet a bit simplified) take 2 samples calculate the arithmetic-mean and the difference store the mean into the average signal the difference in the detail signal 19:59:43 repeat the process on the avarage signal as often as you want 20:00:47 other (better) wavelet transformations are as simple as that but you take more than 2 samples and use multiplication with some mysterious values... 20:09:31 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:10:22 I didn't know the wavelet transform was this simple. I have some courses about signal processing and they're all about fourier transform, DCT, and such, and wavelet was only mentioned a few time as this "mysterious transformation used in jpeg2000 that is so mysterious" 20:12:37 -!- sp3tt has quit (Client Quit). 20:14:48 i tried to find informations about wavelet transforms 20:15:24 but everything i found was too mathematical and too much theory at the beginning instead of simple examples 20:15:40 but my brother has a book about wavelet transformations that is really great 21:42:34 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:08:48 -!- int-e has left (?). 22:26:36 -!- calamari has joined. 22:51:10 hi 23:27:33 -!- zauberzebra has joined. 23:42:22 -!- calamari_ has joined. 23:45:07 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:48:42 -!- zauberzebra has left (?). 2005-09-05: 01:08:12 making progress on the esoshell thing.. decided to GNUize the options to a few utilities while I was at it 01:16:37 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:17:12 -!- cmeme has joined. 01:45:49 good to hear you're making progress :) 01:58:54 -!- calamari_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:11:12 -!- Aardwolf has quit ("Ik zen der is mee weg"). 02:20:09 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:43:28 -!- ChanServ has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 07:46:53 -!- ChanServ has joined. 07:46:53 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 07:58:00 -!- CXII has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:58:45 -!- CXII has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:15:45 -!- calamari has joined. 08:15:50 hi 08:16:09 * calamari just ran a program from the wiki! :) 09:08:02 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 09:15:36 -!- calamari has joined. 09:15:42 re's.. try it out: 09:15:44 http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/EsoShell/ 09:16:29 or http://kidsquid.com/EsoShell .. guess I should set up http://esoshell.kidsquid.com 09:28:43 'night 09:28:45 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 10:48:04 -!- kipple has joined. 12:49:44 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:11:40 -!- kipple has joined. 13:12:02 -!- lindi- has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:40:20 -!- sp3tt has joined. 17:30:34 -!- nooga has joined. 17:30:36 hi 17:36:21 -!- sp3tt has quit (Client Quit). 17:39:36 -!- kipple_ has joined. 17:39:36 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:41:51 -!- jix has joined. 17:42:59 hymh 18:09:59 tokigun 18:38:31 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:40:35 -!- kipple has joined. 18:43:05 -!- nooga has quit. 19:34:57 -!- calamari has joined. 19:35:01 hi 19:48:48 -!- sp3tt has joined. 20:12:45 -!- sp3tt has quit (Client Quit). 21:21:45 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 23:00:11 HTTP-POST in Java refuses to work for me... crazy 23:08:59 -!- grim_ has joined. 23:09:05 lo all 23:13:59 Hullo grim underscore. 23:19:30 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 23:28:49 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 23:40:28 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:40:43 -!- kipple has joined. 23:42:13 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:43:41 -!- calamari has joined. 23:44:41 When can you say that a programming language has only 2 symbols? I mean C++ code is also only 0's and 1's! 23:46:03 Aardwolf: C++ can also use A-Z, a-z, punctuation, etc.. not just 0 and 1 :) 23:46:44 but it makes more sense to interpret those 1s and 0s as higher-level code symbols 23:47:57 you could just as well interpret C++ code as decimal, does that mean it has 9 symbols? 23:48:09 calamari, I mean, if you store C++ code on the harddisk, no matter how many A's and Z's and std::vectors it contains, it'll be 0's and 1's on the disk 23:48:14 um, or even 10 ;) 23:49:10 There's for example this language (forgot which one) with 2 commands, one that spins a wheel of commands, the other to execute the selected command of the wheel. How many commands does this language have? The amount of commands on the wheel, or 2? 23:50:05 it's called SPIN isn't it? 23:50:31 * grim_ forgets 23:51:22 hmm no results for spin on esolang 23:52:00 Whirl? 23:52:36 mm, whirl would be it 23:53:02 yes indeed 23:53:15 well so does it have 2 commands or is it a sort of cheating :) 23:53:31 is there actually a way defined to tell how much commands a language has :D 23:54:10 It does have 2 commands... in a sense. 23:56:12 but I don't suppose there is a way of determining how many "true commands" a language has, which seems to be what you're driving at 23:56:44 Aardwolf: spinning commands like that is cheating, imo 23:56:51 C++ has to have more than 2 commands, because the 0's and 1's are not interpreted independently, same with Whirl, imo. 23:57:13 Yeah that's probably the best way to look at it 23:57:18 Aardwolf: cpu's don't "spin".. opcodes always do the same thing, given the same data (or if no data), afaik 23:57:30 the fact that modern computing devices store C++ program as a series of 1s and 0s on a magnetic storage medium is a red herring ;) 23:57:55 Someone should make a real ternary computer :) 23:58:22 Aardwolf: I've gotten down to 4 symbols without spinning 23:58:23 Im working on a character code for one, and a not-so-eso programming language too 23:58:34 spinning is a bit novel, but I thought OISCs ran on a similar principle 23:58:44 Aardwolf: it should be possible to get three 23:58:54 basically a look-up table of the real instructions 23:59:28 grim_: nope.. oisc is one instruction, always the same 23:59:37 calamari, you mean the BF_instruction_minimalization? :) 23:59:42 * grim_ assumed I was wrong 23:59:46 Aardwolf: yeah :) 2005-09-06: 00:00:02 Aardwolf: I think it can be reduced to 3.. but I dunno how :) 00:00:06 Hey add the 4 symbol solution in there, I don't see it in there :) 00:00:17 well, afk.. got http post working, finally! now to implement that in python 00:00:32 evenin' all 00:00:34 aardwolf: it's there, but somewhat obscured by ., 00:00:41 interesting discussion here :) 00:00:57 Aardwolf: you don't need i/o, so }<[] is 4 00:01:03 Well would be cool if someone found a revolutionary 3 symbol solution :) 00:01:10 oh yeah 00:01:43 without io it becomes even less practical though ;) 00:02:04 not any less so than lambda calculus :) 00:02:27 a problem with couting commands is that some languages have commands without arguments and some have one or more args per command 00:02:28 ok, really afk now 00:02:28 Not necessarily Aardwolf, really I/O doesn't belong on a turing tape 00:02:43 true that 00:02:49 it's easy to have few commands if you can use args 00:05:16 Sorry for being off topic but I once read about code that would generate the same compiler (error) output as the code itself, sort of like a quine but with compiler errors instead. I can't find it again with google though. Anyone remember something about this? 00:05:48 I remember that, I think it was a version of C or C++ 00:05:57 it was a quine-like program 00:13:54 bed time 00:14:03 -!- grim_ has changed nick to grim^bed. 00:18:58 Aardwolf: yeah I remember that.. it was like a 99bob or hello world type page with listings for various languages 00:19:52 maybe search for "Bad command or file name" , or various shell errors :) 00:20:02 :) 00:21:07 got wiki writing working, now need to do it all again in python .. :/ 00:21:36 what? have you switched to python? 00:22:13 nope.. have to work around Java's security mechanisms 00:22:18 ah 00:22:40 does that mean the applet can't be hosted within the wiki? 00:22:43 first it POST's to my server, then it will repost that to the wiki 00:22:53 I see 00:23:04 it can, that'll be great when it is 00:23:10 Would it be good to post an example of a quine on the esolang quine page, or can brainfuck quine code be copyrighted 00:23:12 but this works for now :) 00:23:22 Aardwolf: did you write it? 00:23:33 nope 00:23:39 Aardwolf: do you know who did? 00:23:44 nope 00:23:48 don't post it :) 00:24:06 Well, there are names of people mentioned :) http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/self_brainf.txt 00:24:15 maybe you know one of them? :) 00:24:39 Keymaker has a bf-quine here: http://bf-hacks.org/programs.html 00:24:49 I'm sure he'll agree to post it on the wiki 00:25:27 Well hopefully he reads the logs :) 00:25:54 I know Brian Raiter: http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/ 00:26:17 I've mailed him before.. cool guy 01:11:14 -!- Aardwolf has quit ("Ik zen der is mee weg"). 01:27:11 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 01:35:22 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:46:09 -!- calamari has joined. 03:20:31 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:56:26 yay, mediawiki has some kind of anti-bot checking built in.. 03:56:38 http post.. its the lamest thing ever 06:27:58 -!- calamari_ has joined. 06:28:03 re's 06:28:14 wiki r/w is working! 06:28:42 http://esoshell.kidsquid.com/ 06:33:55 ahh, now it only creates one change entry per new file 06:34:38 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:36:54 -!- calamari_ has changed nick to calamari. 07:13:16 well, it works.. now all we need are more languages interpreters :) 07:46:35 added Unnecessary language interpreter 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:47:59 -!- Lizzy_K has joined. 08:48:15 -!- Lizzy_K has quit (Client Quit). 08:48:41 -!- grim^bed has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:22:31 -!- kipple has joined. 09:54:17 hi kipple 10:25:55 hello 10:27:48 -!- graue has joined. 10:28:14 the quinelike things that print themselves as error messages are called kimian quines 10:30:10 -!- calamari_ has joined. 10:30:33 calamari: I see you've put up the api for esoshell :) 10:30:36 hey cal, all your esoshell stuff is sort of drowning out the normal editing of the wiki 10:30:52 graue: yeah I wanted to ask you about that 10:30:57 I think we need a "hide esoshell namespace edits" patch for the recent changes page 10:31:08 graue: I agree 10:31:12 Is that because the Esoshell namespace is not properly configured? 10:31:24 kipple: yeah afaik there isn't an EsoShell nasespace yet 10:31:25 no, it's because mediawiki doesn't have a feature like that 10:31:30 I thought the recent changes only listed changes in the normal namespace 10:31:55 kipple: graue has been waiting on me to stop being lazy and get the wiki i/o done ;) 10:32:15 kipple: no, it shows them all 10:32:20 ok 10:33:15 graue: is it difficult to add that namespace? 10:33:17 I see that edits by bots are not shown per default. Is it possible to flag the edits made by the shell as 'bot'? 10:34:07 possibly, if they're proxied by calamari_'s server 10:34:24 I think the proxy would have to log in when it made an edit, and I'd somehow label the account it used as 'bot' 10:34:26 they are.. had to overcome Java's security measures 10:34:38 I'm not logging in, though 10:35:06 I have no idea about namespaces, but is there any problem with the current setup, other than the talk pages not being "EsoShell talk"? 10:36:20 looked up the mediawiki documentation, and bot is just a user setting like sysop 10:36:26 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:36:37 graue: no, I thought you were wanting the namespace.. if you don't then it doesn't matter 10:36:57 I agree it would be nicer 10:37:03 so I guess there should be a separate EsoShell bot-user 10:37:12 yes 10:37:14 graue: I'm wondering about a category for EsoShell though, like you could mark bf as being in EsoShell 10:37:31 not that iomortant right now since only 2 languages are implemented, just something to think about 10:37:33 [[Category:Supported by EsoShell]]? 10:37:40 something like that 10:37:48 or just [[Category:EsoShell]] 10:39:02 by the way, calamari_, you could have the proxy mention the user's IP address in its edit summary, as a rough way of tracking who made what edit 10:39:55 to create a custom namespace you must edit the LocalSettings.php : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Custom_namespaces 10:40:16 graue: hmm, good idea.. I'll lok into that 10:42:00 graue: it may be possible to have the app log in as the user, but there are all sorts of security problems there that I'd rather avoid 10:42:17 and then you can't flag the edits as 'bot' 10:49:21 there are now a couple of articles about specific implementations in the wiki (awib and BFBasic). I think we should have a category for them. 10:50:35 or perhaps there should be a [[category:Brainfuck]] to put all bf-related stuff in. 10:51:08 oops. are you messing with the namespaces, graue? ;) 10:51:34 something is definately wrong right now... 10:52:36 [[category:implementations]] sounds good, and yeah I just was 10:53:05 well, you've messed up something. look at http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Iota_and_Jot 10:53:14 I see comments from the php file... 10:53:38 looks fine to me :) 10:53:43 it does? 10:53:48 yeah, reload 10:54:12 * kipple reloads and gets a bit embarrassed 10:54:21 by the way, calamari_, it seems you have to recreate the EsoShell pages now 10:54:36 graue: that's fine.. they were temporary 10:55:21 actually, I should probably comment out the new namespaces, then go back and delete those pages, then add the namespaces again 10:55:25 it seems to be a bit messed up 10:58:16 I moved them to User:Graue/Old Esoshell/[Brainfuck|Temp|Befunge] 10:58:33 anybody else think we should have a category for bf-related stuff? currently we have the articles Brainfuck algorithms,BFBASIC, Brainfuck constants, Awib and BF instruction minimalization which would qualify for this cat. 10:59:15 there, all fixed 10:59:35 kipple: sure, I guess so 11:00:42 we're starting to get a lot of categories, but I think that's a good thing 11:03:51 anybody know how to link to a category page? 11:04:01 [[:Category:Whatever]] 11:04:19 thanks 11:05:56 I don't think the brainfuck article should link to [[Category:Brainfuck]], since it's in that category, so there's already a link to it 11:06:13 and [[Category:Brainfuck derivatives]] can easily be found within the Brainfuck category 11:06:26 I don't see why not. the category links are hidden down at the bottom and not very visible 11:08:21 that's only because of the improper choice of theme and/or useragent 11:08:34 what do you mean? 11:09:28 lol 11:09:39 (EsoShell (lilly.csoft.net)) 11:10:02 apparently it thinks my host/ip/etc are the same as the server the applet is running on 11:10:15 on->from 11:12:21 kipple: you essentially have a complaint against where the categories are displayed in the monobook theme 11:12:35 still, it makes more semantic sense to find a category from the link at the bottom than from a "see also" 11:12:38 ah, I see. are they more visible in the default theme? 11:13:14 I think so 11:14:10 I still think it is nice to have it listed in See Also. 11:14:23 there you can put a brief description next ot the link as well 11:15:01 what's to describe? it's the Brainfuck category! 11:15:33 added some descriptions :) 11:16:13 I'm just thinking about occasional visitors which might not be familiar with mediawiki and the category concept 11:17:01 dang, you're fast to correct errors ;) 11:18:42 we should have a help page or something for people to get familiar with the category concept 11:19:03 however, how many esolang enthusiasts are really not going to have used wikipedia? 11:19:15 you're probably right. 11:19:51 though I like to think that sometimes people who are not (yet) enthusiasts comes by :) 11:20:07 yay, esoshell is now running at 127.0.0.1 11:20:17 yeah.. isn't that helpful? 11:20:28 what? that's my IP! get out of my computer!!!! 11:21:17 graue: trying to get you your ip's.. not having great luck with it tho :) 11:22:10 can't the python script simply get it from the request? or are you doing it in the applet? 11:23:12 hmmm, maybe. 11:27:29 calamari: what's the point of this page: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/?? 11:28:02 hmm. does that link work at all? contains two korean chars 11:28:24 it's "main page" in Korean 11:28:34 and was an attempt to wedge two wikis into the same place 11:28:40 aha 11:29:24 I wonder if following wikipedia's example and having kr.esoteric.voxelperfect.net wouldn't be a better idea 11:29:37 maybe 11:29:37 but it would probably be a pain to set up 11:30:00 but is there really a need for it? doesn't seem like any of the koreans have even bothered to edit this main page 11:31:10 it was just a test; they weren't expected to 11:37:03 stuff compiled with awib won't seem to run under OpenBSD's linux compatibility layer 11:37:33 I get "Operation not permitted" and then if I use "elf2olf -o linux awib" I get "Cannot allocate memory" 11:38:01 too bad :( 11:39:18 yay! :) 11:39:27 maybe you should port it to BSD then ;) 11:39:30 kipple: good idea with python.. got it :) 11:41:46 that's nice. 11:42:00 getting it to log in as a user next? 11:42:42 not tonight.. it'll be a major pain 11:42:47 probably 11:43:16 http post is horrible..even if one little thing is off it won't send the data 11:43:45 OT: does anyone know of a nice graph generating script for PHP? 11:44:29 like: I give it a set of dates and related numbers, and it plots a nice chart for me 11:46:53 kipple: no idea, sorry 11:47:06 maybe #web ? 11:47:08 BF2C.c is stupid 11:47:12 it doesn't check for EOF 11:47:23 I've tried searching a bit but I get so extremely many results, and no idea which are good 11:47:41 so when EOF occurs, the program just gets some random wrapped value based on whatever EOF is implemented as 11:47:41 kipple: no I mean the channel #web 11:47:59 ah. perhaps I'll try that. thanks 11:49:16 okay, I need to go to bed 11:49:25 have fun :) 11:49:27 what time is it where you are? 11:49:35 almost 4am 11:49:57 heh. good night :) 11:50:00 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 11:51:23 fun fact: the Malbolge article is the 4th most popular article on the wiki (behind Main Page, Language List, and brainfuck) 11:56:16 cool 11:56:44 more people should read about 1L 11:59:41 even more OT: today's Irregular Web Comic is hilarious: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cgi-bin/comic.pl?comic=954 12:02:59 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 12:03:07 whoa, lots of changes today 12:03:22 yeah 12:04:10 What is EsoShell? Is it a sort of tool that will be on the wiki? 12:04:38 http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/EsoShell/ 12:04:53 a java-applet unix-like console with esolang implementations 12:07:15 oh I see. Will it come on the wiki? It looks to me like there's a lot of testing going on 12:07:29 it will hopefully be included in the wiki 12:07:36 it uses the wiki as it's file system 12:08:02 oh I see 12:09:58 bf wiki:EsoShell.b :) 12:21:07 EsoShell needs some 1L support if it's gonna really take off 13:41:57 -!- graue has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:41:57 -!- puzzlet has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:41:57 -!- ZeroOne has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:41:59 -!- CXII has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:42:00 -!- pgimeno has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:42:04 -!- kipple has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:42:04 -!- cpressey has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:42:10 -!- graue has joined. 13:42:10 -!- kipple has joined. 13:42:10 -!- CXII has joined. 13:42:10 -!- puzzlet has joined. 13:42:10 -!- cpressey has joined. 13:42:10 -!- pgimeno has joined. 13:42:10 -!- ZeroOne has joined. 15:56:06 -!- jix has joined. 16:12:32 -!- sp3tt has joined. 16:33:49 -!- Keymaker has joined. 16:36:06 hm. 16:36:20 finally had time to optimize the current quine work 16:36:52 got it to 1214, which is almost 300 bytes larger than my current record 16:37:14 probably i should do some other bf stuff for a chance, like i months ago thought 16:37:22 *change 16:37:45 well, been very busy.. that'll ease in a month though.. 16:54:48 Keymaker, will you post a few quines on the wiki as examples? 16:59:28 well, other people have done a lot shorter than mine.. 17:21:10 anyways.. must go. 17:21:16 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 17:38:13 -!- grim_ has joined. 17:38:35 lo all 17:39:19 moin grim_ 19:22:45 -!- naughty_Alice has joined. 19:32:43 -!- grim_ has changed nick to grimhome. 19:35:38 -!- xyzz1 has joined. 20:13:53 -!- sp3tt has quit (Client Quit). 20:29:52 -!- xyzz1 has left (?). 20:54:27 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 21:18:27 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:56:03 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:08:53 -!- calamari has joined. 22:09:57 hi 22:27:58 ¡Hola señor squid! 22:28:17 (He responds, 20 minutes later) 22:34:39 hi GregorR 22:35:45 it was suggested that 1L be implemented in EsoShell 22:36:06 I was looking at the 1L page, but there are two variants.. which is the active branch? 22:49:54 hmm.. the bf interpreter seems to be broken.. 22:55:40 maybe its this Java.. everything seems to be melting down and it was fine at home 22:59:45 -!- grimhome has changed nick to grim_. 23:01:09 aha, 1.5 code seems to have slipped in again 23:06:10 * GregorR reapears. 23:06:17 graue's is the "true" 1L 23:06:22 1L_a I think he called it. 23:07:25 I didn't reapear btw, I reappeared :-P 23:08:05 huh? :) 23:08:24 I can't spell :P 23:08:41 oh.. I didn't even see your first line.. lol 23:09:37 it bothers me that those Java exceptions weren't being thrown to the EsoShell console.. I thought I'd set it up so they would be 23:09:46 (adds it to the TODO list) 23:10:58 That wasn't proper IRC emoting :P 23:11:35 I've been on irc since 1993.. it's been in use at least that long ;) 23:14:03 back then I used undernet, because it was the only one I could connect to via gopher 23:39:16 has anyone made a 2D language with a preprocessor? 23:41:58 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:51:40 graue: it shouldn't be overly difficult to port 1L to EsoShell. I've put the API and source files on http://esoshell.kidsquid.com/ You can run Application.class directly to make it easier to debug things 23:52:51 I'd do it, but I'm wondering about my documentation, etc.. is it good enough? If it isn't, then I'd like to know so I can improve it 23:53:42 well, I can't actually run EsoShell so far as I know 23:54:33 really? why not? 23:55:16 does it work with gcj 3.4 and/or kaffe 1.0.6? 23:55:34 I could try, I guess 23:56:01 I'm not sure, but if it doesn't let me know so I can fix it 23:58:29 whew.. lots of errors in gcj 3.3.3, but maybe I just don't know what I'm doing with it 2005-09-07: 00:04:07 what does this mean? 00:04:10 /usr/lib/gcc-lib/i386-redhat-linux/3.3.3/../../../crt1.o(.text+0x18): In function `_start': 00:04:10 : undefined reference to `main' 00:04:10 /tmp/ccACjpyI.o(.text+0x4e): In function `Application::main(JArray*)': 00:04:10 : undefined reference to `EsoShellAPI::EsoShell::class$' 00:04:10 /tmp/ccACjpyI.o(.text+0x61): In function `Application::main(JArray*)': 00:04:10 : undefined reference to `EsoShellAPI::EsoShell::EsoShell[in-charge]()' 00:04:12 collect2: ld returned 1 exit status 00:05:55 I think you need to specify which class has "main" in it, somehow, otherwise gcj doesn't know which main to use 00:06:06 aha 00:08:15 thanks, that eliminated the first error, but the 2nd two remain 00:08:26 bbl.. 00:08:33 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 00:10:49 the OpenBSD package for gcj doesn't seem to work, it wants a "libgcj.spec" file that doesn't exist 00:21:23 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:37:46 -!- pgimeno has joined. 00:54:39 -!- Aardwolf has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:03:50 -!- naughty_Alice has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:12:27 -!- calamari has joined. 02:16:53 hi 02:17:26 I guess there's a gcj-4.0 out now.. downloading that :) 02:20:49 graue: hmm weird, I have that same spec error here (3.4) 02:21:34 bbl 02:21:37 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 02:42:59 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:57:41 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 03:23:17 -!- cmeme has joined. 04:06:37 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("leafChat IRC client: http://www.leafdigital.com/Software/leafChat/"). 05:34:48 -!- lament has quit (Connection timed out). 06:28:12 -!- lament has joined. 06:36:43 -!- graue has quit ("leaving"). 06:47:12 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:47:15 -!- ZeroOne has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:00:35 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:47:55 -!- lindi- has joined. 11:09:53 -!- ZeroOne_ has joined. 11:41:39 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 11:41:51 Someone seen this? http://jonripley.com/i-fiction/games/LostKingdomBF.html 11:43:17 wow 11:43:33 The cool thing is that it actually works 11:44:07 You are in an unkempt yard overlooking a stagnant pond. 11:44:07 You can see: 11:44:07 a red herring (5) 11:44:07 >take 5 11:44:07 Taken. 11:44:18 nice to see some risc os developers too ;) 11:47:55 I'm gonna convert Lost Kingdom to brainloller :D 12:30:50 Haha, Lost Kingdom in Brainloller is working, but my interpreter is so slow that you have to wait every time until the texts appear and it responds to your input 12:36:02 http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m0216922/brainloller/lk.png 12:50:19 hahahah 12:50:24 mad-looking 13:09:31 -!- kipple_ has joined. 13:43:54 -!- jix has joined. 13:44:09 moin 13:51:23 hi 13:52:22 How to post a zoomed in version of an image on the wiki? 13:52:34 (I mean, a resized version of the image) 13:52:34 zoomed in? 13:52:53 you just post the image and the wiki creates small preview images for you (afaik) 13:53:37 I mean, here: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainloller is a very small hello world source code image. I'd like to post an enlarged version of it as well (like the width / height tags do in html) 13:54:12 hm 13:56:59 [[Image:Wikipedesketch1.png|100px]] 13:57:36 hmm 13:58:30 doesn't work... 13:58:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Picture_tutorial 13:59:27 i'd upload a scaled version because some brothers uses interpolation for scaling images 13:59:35 (safari is one of them) 14:04:35 Aardwolf: are you the designer of Brainloller? 14:05:01 he is 14:05:31 I'm doing some small edits to the article, and was wondering when this language was created (I'm guessing this year) 14:06:05 I like to have the year of creation on each language article 14:06:52 kipple_: yes 14:07:09 ok. thanks 14:07:10 It was created this year in august 14:07:35 did you see this neat brainloller code already? http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m0216922/brainloller/lk.png :) 14:07:54 yikes! 14:08:22 was about to ask if it was Lost Kingdom or something, then I saw the text at the bottom :D 14:08:34 :) 14:09:00 heh maybe i'll write a optimizing bf2bl converter 14:09:06 that tries to save space 14:09:38 have you uploaded that one to the wiki? 14:10:05 no, Lost Kingdom is copyrighted by Jon Kipley 14:10:15 good point 14:10:17 I mailed him to ask if I can keep it on my site though 14:10:52 By the was I should try to make the brainloller optimizer a lot faster 14:12:52 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 14:13:01 <{^Raven^}> hey Aardwolf 14:13:13 Aardwolf: there is a bug in the interpereter ( i think so) 14:13:24 you check bounds at + and - but not at < and > 14:14:04 Hi {^Raven^} 14:14:09 moin {^Raven^} 14:14:59 jix, I'll study it, maybe I'll completely rewrite it to make it much faster, inspired by other bf interpreters 14:15:27 i'm modifying it to dump the brainfuck commands 14:15:53 then i'm going to use it with bf2a (my bf2c compiler (very fast executables)) 14:17:07 for a bf2bl converter, check the file in the bftobmp folder 14:17:29 Aardwolf: the output doesn't look optimzied 14:17:33 oh I just reuploaded the file because there was a bug 14:18:00 jix, what do you mean? there are as much pixels as brainfuck commands, except two colums of rotate commands on both sides, how can it be optimized? 14:18:12 Aardwolf: reusing space 14:18:28 yeah that is indeed possible, but it looks like a really hard problem to me 14:18:36 i have some ideas 14:18:38 you want to do things like wire crossing to reuse pixels? 14:18:46 yes 14:19:15 I had that in mind when I designed it, and secretly hoped someone would actually try using that :) 14:22:20 hm there is a problem with dumping 14:22:24 if there is an infinity loop 14:23:32 By the way, should I remove the memory size constraint (of 30000 bytes), and would it be better wrapping or non-wrapping? 14:23:44 reallocating 14:23:54 expanding 14:24:01 In other words, std::vector 14:24:11 i don't know c++ but i think yes 14:24:34 Then the contraint would be removed from the brainloller specification and it would be turing complete 14:24:47 yes 14:25:23 <{^Raven^}> hehe, I'm gonna play with brainloller 14:26:03 I'm gonna make a new interpreter :) 14:26:11 i need 128 times the same instruction for doing some optimisations... 14:26:39 In the Lost Kingdom code are huge series of red pixels (>'s), maybe you can do something there 14:29:14 <{^Raven^}> run-length encoding of the loaded program will speed up execution dramatically 14:29:27 Aardwolf: if you want a good bf2high-level optimizer you can try http://esolangs.org/files/brainfuck/impl/bf2a-0.2.rb 14:29:50 but you have to catch infinity loops if you do optimizations 14:30:18 Ok. I think I'm going to learn a lot by trying this. 14:31:03 By the way I'm also writing a Deltaplex interpreter. It's extremely hard and complex, I got most of the 3D and audio engine working though. 14:32:35 are there beta specs/interpreter? 14:33:18 There are beta specs, but not online yet 14:33:34 the interpreter isn't really an interpreter yet, only the code to support it 14:33:52 I'll improve the beta specs and put them online 14:35:45 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: take a look at Erik Bosman's interpreter that comes with lost kingdom, maybe you can steal (convert to C++) the optimisation code 14:36:43 {^Raven^}, I was planning to do so, as that interpreter runs LK very fast :) 14:37:39 I'll start by reading the code from the png image and storing it in a 1D array (following the IP rotate commands), and then use that 1D command for the rest of the BF interpretion 14:37:50 *array 14:37:57 Aardwolf: uhoh.. infinity loops 14:38:09 uh yeah 14:38:16 you have to add 2 instructions 14:38:21 { and } for start and stop infinity loop 14:38:34 that could work 14:38:38 and have to track all ip-positions/directions 14:38:51 that's easy, done that for gammaplex already :) 14:39:02 or better make a new buffer with the size of the image 14:39:21 that makes the "was i here before?" check faster 14:39:54 I also thought about storing the positions of corresponding [ and ]'s to jump to them faster 14:40:07 it would have to be stored 4 times, once for each direction 14:40:49 no use one buffer and use 0b0001 for direction 1 0b010 for 2...... 14:42:25 gcc is too slow... 14:43:19 and makes to much use of recursion 14:43:23 Out of stack space. 14:43:23 Try running 'ulimit -S -s unlimited' in the shell to raise its limit. 14:43:55 and the code i'm compiling has only 1 function 14:44:23 wow I never had problems with g++ heh 14:44:42 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: I can't get brainloller to compiler :( 14:45:17 Try with g++ *.cpp, it works for me 14:45:32 it has no library dependencies at all! 14:45:44 i'm not talking about BL 14:45:57 i'm talking about LostKng.c 14:46:05 autoconverted from LostKng.c 14:46:08 b 14:46:10 -c+b 14:46:18 oh I see :) 14:46:40 <{^Raven^}> jix: you realise how long gcc will take to compile it ;) 14:47:06 So I guess there must be created some very demanding C code? :D 14:47:28 hmm it has less nested loops than straight bf2c 14:49:01 Hey how about this as a .b to .c compiler: the generated .c code is the source code of a .b interpreter and at the start of a code a char buffer being defined with in {, , , ... } symbols the whole .b code. Then the interpreter uses this char buffer (instead of a loaded file). 14:49:17 too slow 14:49:43 <{^Raven^}> that only offers the same speed as the bundled interpreter 14:49:54 <{^Raven^}> it's the old way to compile code 14:49:59 this is called pseudo-compiler (used for befunge compiling) 14:50:01 ok 14:50:47 ruby has no problem with the loop level in LostKng.b 14:50:59 and i make heavy use of recursion 14:54:59 {^Raven^}, did you manage to compile brainloller already? If not, what are you compiling it with? 14:56:47 hmm what is the correct c label syntax? 14:57:05 and goto 14:57:37 ask in #c, but afaik it's goto blah; and the label is blah: 14:57:46 hmm i'm using that 14:59:37 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: it turns out that both .cpp files were corrupted on download, it compiles now but segfaults 15:00:23 try redownloading them, I recently reuploaded them 15:02:15 all 3 of them 15:02:31 if you're on linux you can also try downloading a.out and running that 15:06:21 <{^Raven^}> hmmm, same problem 15:07:23 What platform are you on? 15:07:41 <{^Raven^}> Unix, Windows and RISC OS. 15:08:11 I'll reupload the files again, maybe I forgot changing one and they aren't compatible? Because the version on my HD is most certainly working witout segfaults and can run both hello.png and lk.png 15:09:54 reuploaded... 15:12:03 <{^Raven^}> sorry, no luck :( 15:12:22 too weird 15:12:29 :( 15:15:39 I just downloaded it and it worked fine (debian) 15:17:40 though lost kingdoms doens't seem to work properly 15:18:59 <{^Raven^}> i'll try again later 15:19:26 perhaps it only works on linux... 15:19:32 <{^Raven^}> jix: goto is the spawn of the devil 15:20:04 <{^Raven^}> kipple_: segfaults on WHEL3 and Windows 15:20:09 {^Raven^}: yes 15:20:13 i know 15:20:15 but i have to use it 15:20:27 because gcc is too crappy to handle a few hundred nested loops 15:20:32 <{^Raven^}> jix: ahh, someone has a gun to your head? 15:20:35 and it's auto-generated code anyway 15:20:48 <{^Raven^}> jix: hehe 15:21:04 jix: how does gcc fail to handle that? 15:21:04 it looks awful and unreadable without gotos too 15:21:18 lindi-: catched stack overflow 15:21:32 aRGH still out of stack space...!!! 15:21:56 jix: ah, when you try to run or compile it? 15:22:00 Deltaplex spec and early screenshot are here: http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m0216922/deltaplex/ 15:22:11 lindi-: yes 15:25:04 aardwolf: looks interesting. though I'm not sure if I'll take the time to read it all ;) 15:25:45 :) 15:28:53 jix: which one? ;) 15:29:09 lindi-: the output of bf2a.rb LostKng.b 15:30:50 Aardwolf: has gammaplex support for pixel shaders? 15:31:00 jix, no 15:31:32 (delta) 15:31:37 uh 15:31:39 yes delta... 15:31:46 hmm i like pixel shaders... 15:31:55 i wrote a julia fractal renderer using pixel shaders 15:32:03 but i can't use looping 15:32:14 so the program is too big for my graphic card with 30 iterations 15:32:36 my card sux, GF3 ;) 15:32:57 my card is ok 15:33:11 ati radeon 9800 pro with 128mb vram 15:33:29 Aardwolf: has deltaplex support for AA? 15:34:20 -!- kipple_ has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:34:22 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:34:27 -!- puzzlet has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:34:28 -!- pgimeno has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:34:28 -!- CXII has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:34:28 -!- cmeme has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:34:28 -!- grim_ has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:34:29 -!- cpressey has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:34:29 -!- ChanServ has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:34:29 -!- jix has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:34:29 -!- ZeroOne_ has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:34:29 -!- lindi- has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:34:29 -!- mtve has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:34:29 -!- Aardwolf has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:36:01 -!- ChanServ has joined. 15:36:01 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 15:36:03 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 15:36:18 -!- mtve has joined. 15:36:33 jix, do you mean full screen anti aliasing? 15:36:57 -!- jix has joined. 15:37:00 jix, do you mean full screen anti aliasing? 15:37:08 yes 15:37:23 isn't that an option you can turn on in the settings of your video card drivers? 15:37:26 i could enable it by setting an opengl overwrite on deltaplex 15:37:34 but native support would be cool too 15:37:37 if so, it could screw up the readability of fonts though 15:37:48 ah no 15:38:01 not full screen anti aliasing 15:38:06 -!- kipple_ has joined. 15:38:08 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 15:38:10 texture filtering? 15:38:13 -!- pgimeno has joined. 15:38:13 -!- CXII has joined. 15:38:14 -!- CXII has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:38:14 -!- pgimeno has quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:38:15 that's something inexistent afaik 15:38:19 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:38:21 FSAA 15:38:22 because font aa is taks of the font system 15:38:29 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:38:34 curse this server! 15:38:39 different from the things SDLgfx aa functions 15:38:46 so it's part of software for most things 15:38:52 -!- pgimeno has joined. 15:38:59 but 3d graphics are hardware... 15:39:04 -!- CXII has joined. 15:39:17 and you can draw triangles with a smooth AA border 15:39:34 actually there aren't even plans for lighting at the moment :) 15:39:34 and they look nicer than those without AA 15:39:44 and thats something you can toggle using OGL 15:40:21 if it's a simple OGL command I could consider it, I'm avoiding extensions at the moment though 15:41:19 -!- cmeme has joined. 15:41:24 i think it's an extension... 15:42:28 one thing I fear is that the interpreter will be too slow to actually allow making something cool 15:43:36 -!- grim_ has joined. 15:48:00 tsk 15:50:39 Aardwolf: deltaplex's constants list is missing a very useless value 15:51:29 being? 15:51:36 -!- ZeroOne_ has joined. 15:51:39 hmm the jix-useless-constant *g* 15:51:54 :D 15:52:44 the solution real solution for x for x*|x|^(1/4)+Cos(x^2)-sqrt(5+Sin(9+x))=0 15:54:00 lol 15:54:05 (at dmwaters) 15:54:09 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 15:54:46 it's ~ 2.056964219114166926775407552183364454808154333338709547536597358325935202358797284252482781728389933848895663035350228179996536714334290 15:55:34 that's pretty useless indeed 15:55:37 yes 15:55:57 i can't imagine a problem that needs this value 15:57:17 and Mathematica's solve wasn't able to solve the equation ^^ 15:57:26 Did you use Maple? 15:57:36 no i don't have maple 15:57:53 Hmm.. Mathematica got stumped? 15:58:13 it said there is no algebraic way to solve it 15:58:37 there is no algebraic way to solve all equations of 5th order or higher.. so it's nothing special 15:58:56 gmail is suddenly bugged, I can't send emails anymore with it :s 15:58:58 Some +5th order equations are algebraically solvable 15:59:17 wildhalcyon: i said there is no way to solve ALL of them some are solvable but not all 15:59:30 add a '.' anywhere in my last msg 15:59:51 i used Newton's Method to near the result 16:00:23 That'll work, how long did it take to get your answer so.. erm.. extremely close? 16:00:51 i don't know i did every step by hand 16:01:08 but i don't see mathematica calculating the steps 16:01:14 Aardwolf, what about adding Polya's random walk constants? 16:02:03 What could they be used for? :D 16:02:36 The physical constants are truly useful if you want to make a space shooter in deltaplex :) 16:03:05 Umm.. well, I guess they're not TERRIBLY useful, but polya's constant for n=1 is 1, so that could be a quick way to get "1" 16:03:47 sounds sort of useful 16:03:56 :) 16:10:40 well. the higher ones aren't very practical for many purposes 16:11:10 i have a new cool constant! 16:11:19 srand('deltaplex'.sum);puts "0."+(0..100).map{|e|rand(10)}.join 16:11:26 replace 100 with a higher value for more digits 16:11:39 oh it's ruby code 16:17:41 brainfuck beats them all! http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=brainfuck&word2=c+lisp+scheme+perl+php+python+ruby+bash 16:18:36 pwnt! 16:19:29 Also, anyone who uses the term "pwnd" in my MUD engine will find their character mysteriously dead. 16:20:26 Wow, good thing I used a 't'! 16:25:07 -!- CXI has joined. 16:26:07 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:26:28 -!- CXII has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:00:24 -!- sp3tt has joined. 17:28:56 hah 175 bytes code! 17:29:03 my shortest brainfuck interpreter 17:30:41 argh eof handling... 17:30:48 should i use 0 or -1? 17:40:37 177 bytes code 17:41:15 177 bytes code in what language? 17:41:20 ruby 17:41:31 178 for EOF == -1 17:42:06 $>.sync=m="\0";j=0;eval$<.read.tr(x='^[]+><,.-',"").gsub(/./){%w{while\ m[\ 17:42:06 j]>0 end m[j]+=1 (j+=1)>=m.size&&m<<0 j-=1 m[j]=STDIN.getc||0 putc\ m[j] 17:42:06 m[j]-=1}[x.index($&)-1]+";"}#esoteric@irc.freenode.net Jannis Harder 2005# 17:43:16 it's a bit faster than obi.rb 17:44:28 jix: http://www.kernelpanic.pl/perlgolf-view.mx?id=34 17:44:44 eek perl... 17:46:03 and http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=132368 17:46:06 :) 17:47:25 wow 17:47:31 but that's perl 17:47:47 perl is more cryptic than ruby 17:47:54 normal ruby is clean and readable 17:49:04 and there are more perl than ruby golfers! 18:23:02 -!- clog has joined. 18:23:02 -!- clog has joined. 18:23:03 -!- cpressey has joined. 18:23:03 -!- tokigun has joined. 18:23:16 -!- mtve has joined. 18:23:59 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 18:26:39 -!- jix has joined. 18:26:59 i'm back 19:21:27 -!- lindi- has joined. 19:29:41 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 19:33:33 I've made a graph of the size of the wiki based on the database dumps: http://rune.krokodille.com/lang/wikisize.php 19:34:29 it has actually become smaller lately... 19:37:44 i need a shorter esolang interpreter 19:37:50 177 bytes is too large 19:38:19 what's the shortest one every written? 19:38:23 write one for Hello ;) 19:39:01 Aardwolf: for brainfuck there are shorter ones than mine 19:39:21 there are some very short C bf interpreters 19:39:25 i'm talking about a "suitable for computation" language 19:39:30 kipple_: shorter than 177 bytes? 19:39:38 there are shorter perl interpreters for it 19:39:41 but in c? 19:40:12 perhaps not. haven't counted the bytes 19:40:37 a higher level language like perl should be able to do it shorter than C 19:40:52 there is a ~90 byte perl version 19:41:00 nice. 19:41:32 but i think a ruby version that is shorter than 177 bytes (i can do it in 176 bytes if i wouldn't limit source lines to 75chars) 19:41:40 is very very hard 19:42:57 why limit source line length? 19:43:12 because i like to use small ruby programs as my sig 19:43:28 do you have a link to the perl version? 19:43:37 18:34:34and http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=132368 19:43:55 its 88 bytes 19:43:57 $_.=qw(++ }while$ -- ++$ $$p=shift; --$ print$ ${)[$p%60%8].'$p+0;'while$p=ord getc;eval 19:44:35 i try to write the shortest befunge 93 interpreter possible (in ruby) 19:44:37 cool . 19:47:52 how can that be a bf interpreter :o 19:48:12 I just tried it. doesn't seem to work 19:50:26 on helloworld.b it outputs 72101108108111-18703-3-110 19:50:42 maybe it needs an older / newer perl version 19:50:52 but my interpreter works 19:51:06 hehe cool output 19:51:40 at first it looks like just the ASCII values for hello world, but then something happens... 19:52:33 that's the problem with perl.. as soon as your program that worked for ages stops working you're lost and have to rewrite it because you can't read the source code... that wouldn't happen with BF 19:52:42 because BF doesn't change 19:53:01 C and C++ programs will work forever too 19:53:09 except for EOF, cell size and wrapping 19:53:21 hmm I take back my words 19:53:41 The std:: thing wasn't there at the beginnings of C++ 19:53:52 kipple_: yes but that are things you think about when you write your program... 19:54:02 you don't think about operator precedence if you write a perl program 19:54:24 but how do you write a bf-program that takes into account all variations of EOF? 19:54:35 jix: I don't write perl programs ;) 19:54:41 hey, what is the EOF issue about? End Of File? Does it mean end of program here? 19:54:51 Aardwolf: end of stdin 19:55:01 kipple_: i stopped writing perl programs a long time ago 19:55:27 hmm, what is the end of stdin things you type in a linux console? 19:56:02 Aardwolf: that's something special not an ascii value.. 19:56:31 in c you have feof for checking for eof... because getc's return value isn't usable if you work with binary data 19:56:51 in BF you don't have feof.. and you have to use one of the characters as EOF marker 19:56:52 I've never had the need to check for eof in anything I programmed :s 19:57:03 what kind of EOF does Lost Kingdom use? 19:57:14 does Lost Kingdom use EOF? 19:57:21 Dunno heh 19:57:29 What kind of programs use it? 19:57:47 programs that read files 19:57:50 cat 19:58:32 there are 3 versions of cat in the Brainfuck article on the wiki. one for each common EOF method 19:58:46 I have actually no idea which EOF brainloller uses, I never thought about it while making the interpreter lol 19:58:56 hehe 19:59:02 if you use getc it probably uses -1 19:59:11 == 0xFF (mod 256) 19:59:29 I read the C spec and it seems like EOF can be ANY negative value... 19:59:31 getchar() 19:59:44 kipple_: but probably it's -1 19:59:50 yes. probably 19:59:51 * jix is away 20:13:38 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:14:02 -!- kipple has joined. 20:23:04 -!- sp3tt has quit (Client Quit). 20:26:54 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 20:42:59 back 20:46:33 restart 20:47:20 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 20:48:59 what is brainfuck supposed to do if you do < so many times that the pointer will get a negative value? 20:50:39 -!- jix has joined. 20:54:40 I believe the original spec left that behavior undefined 20:57:34 most interpreters give an error (a wanted error msg or an unwanted segfault) 21:00:05 there are not enough programming language that use sound files as source code 21:01:15 I don't disagree, but the ones that do don't seem to do so in a particularly novel way... 21:01:57 one could try to detect frequencies... 21:02:54 I was thinking more along the lines of beats 21:03:07 hmm ok... 21:03:27 I dont supose that would work well with violin or guitar for instance 21:04:19 If you were to use frequencies, how would you.. differentiate them? 21:05:04 FFTs? 21:05:22 Well, right, but would you bin them, or have a fixed-window FFT? 21:05:41 i know NOTHING about FFTs... so i don't know.. 21:06:30 Well, the size of the FFT window is related to the resolution of the frequencies that it can observe 21:06:41 it's possible with wavelets but i think you need some special transforms for that.. because with a normal transform you can only differentiate between octaves 21:07:40 Really? AFAIK wavelet transforms can be used for frequency detection as well, especially with a very discretized (2~4-bit) wave 21:08:11 I take that back, partially 21:08:12 yes but i only looked at wavelet transformations for compressing 21:08:26 wavelet transforms could probably be used 21:08:29 but an FFT would be better 21:08:56 and the high-pass data and low-pass data are spitted at a frequency that is half the sampling rate 21:09:58 right 21:11:51 It would be interesting to see a language that implemented loops as actual sound loops 21:13:10 I guess it would have to, inherently... 21:14:13 You could model it after genetic code - tonal patterns would mark different commands 21:19:39 -!- GregorR has joined. 21:20:57 ah continuous wavelet transform seems to be the thing needed for this... 21:21:19 Yeah, pretty much 21:21:36 In other news, I think I solved the topology problem that was plaguing my funge-variant. 21:21:53 i only used discrete wavelet transforms 21:22:59 Well, a discrete Haar wavelet transform should work for CD data 21:24:11 no 21:24:20 not afaik 21:25:29 I'll have to look into it 21:27:50 anyhow, Ive gtg 21:37:42 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:15:44 Hey, a turing complete language is never able to generate a true random number, while a quantum random number generator can. Is a program that uses such a thing then "higher" than turing complete? 22:19:53 what's true random number exactly? 22:23:22 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 22:31:57 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:40:30 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: Is any particular version of C++ required to compile brainloller? (I have GCC 3.23) 23:02:40 {^Raven^}, no not really, it should be all standard C++. I uploaded a very new changed version though, maybe it works now?? 23:05:01 -!- grim_ has changed nick to grim_bed. 23:25:19 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 23:48:18 it would not be difficult to define a language which is both turing-complete and can generate truly random numbers... take a turing machine and add a "randomly move head left or right w/equal probability" code, for example. 23:54:02 that machine is turing-complete, meaning, it can do everything a regular turing machine can do. however, if you mean to say that a regular turing machine cannot do everything that that machine can do - that would be correct (modulo the definition of "truly random") 23:55:25 or... another, more succinct way to say what i mean: 23:56:00 unless you believe that *everything* can be reduced to computation, then there are *lots* of things that are "higher than turing-complete" - just look around you :) 23:59:39 Wow, Lost Kingdom has a very nasty HUGE loop (the [ and ] very far apart) and now that I set some optimizer setting in my interpreter to let it work with such huge loops, LK suddely goes a lot faster 2005-09-08: 00:00:42 phylosophy can be so cool :) 00:08:19 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: Got it working on Windows ;) Pretty cool ! 00:09:09 {^Raven^}, did you use the version I uploaded just 5 minutes ago? :) 00:09:13 Because it's a LOT faster! 00:09:37 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: I used version 23:15, i''l check it out 00:10:17 In the newest interpreter, once it's loaded and starts displaying texts, LK will respond almost immediatly after pressing commands (unlike version 23:15 ;)) 00:10:55 <{^Raven^}> 23:15 beats quite a few BF interpreters for speed 00:10:59 I'm playing LK now, just started reading the help files. This saving with z, is it supposed to work? Doesn't work with brainloller 00:11:25 (and I would be surprised if it worked with BF interpreters :)) 00:11:36 <{^Raven^}> saving is to memory only 00:11:42 ok 00:11:49 then it works :) 00:12:04 <{^Raven^}> if you die or want to reload choose play again and enter Y 00:12:05 <{^Raven^}> cool :) 00:12:33 Let me know if you noticed a speed difference in the newest interpreter :) 00:14:27 It's really amazing that all those long texts and description are all in this BF code! 00:15:48 I also appreciate it that you can type "Take 2" instead of "t2", because when I just started I was using "take" without even knowing that it ignored the other letters than t :) 00:17:25 <{^Raven^}> yup, much faster 00:18:05 nice 00:18:20 <{^Raven^}> have you seen the help text/backstory yet? 00:18:30 Yep, I'm going through all ?'s now 00:18:37 After that, I'll go through all !'s 00:18:59 <{^Raven^}> the help and backstory are the two big green blobs in the middle 00:19:02 I already figured I'm a king living in a wooden hut instead of his former castle :) 00:19:13 oh, that's cool :) 00:19:28 where is the parser engine? 00:20:42 "tickle dwarf number 4" haha :) 00:20:42 <{^Raven^}> maybe 100 pixels down from the top 00:21:23 What's the huge red part near the bottom with all the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and <<<<<<<<<<<<<<'s? 00:22:19 <{^Raven^}> the big red bit is the the command processor that peforms the actions 00:22:37 This is the most awesome bf program Ive ever seen 00:23:00 wildhalcyon, seen it in this form already? http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m0216922/brainloller/lk.png 00:23:31 <{^Raven^}> wildhalcyon: thanks 00:24:07 So basicly, the greenish parts contain lots of text, and the red parts are mostly calculations :) 00:24:37 <{^Raven^}> pretty much yes 00:25:26 <{^Raven^}> the green bar in the top third is the room and object description 00:26:41 Oh yes Aardwolf, indeed I have seen it in beautiful picture form 00:29:41 does BFBASIC do a lot of optimizations? 00:30:10 For example, things like, trying to put things that are often needed together, near each other in memory so that as few >>> and <<<'s are needed as possible :) 00:30:12 <{^Raven^}> most of the code is not as optimal as it could be 00:30:54 Well actually the amount of >>>> and <<<<'s probably doesn't matter in a good brainfuck interpreter (and brainloller skips them too now) but it still saves a lot of space 00:31:20 <{^Raven^}> the main size issue relates to how BFBASIC organises conditional code 00:31:53 In the big red parts, it's jumping back and forth between two adresses very far apart, appearantly 00:32:27 well more than two addresses actually 00:32:38 <{^Raven^}> yes, BFBASIC uses line numbers to label sections of code, each line has a memory cell associated with it 00:32:54 <{^Raven^}> to jump to a particular line you set the corresponding cell to 1 00:33:07 Is it possible that all the texts are stored between conditional variables so that it has to jump over the texts all the time? 00:34:05 <{^Raven^}> something like that 00:34:33 Where is the "map" in the code? I read that there are 2 mazes for example :) 00:34:50 <{^Raven^}> hehe, both are easy 00:35:03 >pwnd 00:35:03 Your worship is not rewarded. 00:35:07 haha :p 00:36:06 <{^Raven^}> each room sets the exits when the description is printed 00:36:49 <{^Raven^}> (there are actually two seperate but similiar games in LostKng.b) 00:37:13 ??? 00:37:17 two games? 00:38:00 <{^Raven^}> the short description version is a truer but enhanced conversion of the original game 00:38:42 oh, so there are soms rooms connected differently in the short description version? 00:39:25 <{^Raven^}> the map is the same, but there is a key puzzle which is different 00:39:58 <{^Raven^}> and the long version has the nice descriptions is more similiar to what I wanted to write initially 00:40:12 I'm playing the long version for now 00:40:36 <{^Raven^}> i prefer that one 00:41:29 <{^Raven^}> the game has been played by a lot of 'mainstream' users 00:41:45 <{^Raven^}> who don't even know what brainfuck is :) 00:42:43 <{^Raven^}> and I only had one esoteric beta-tester of the five 00:43:16 it's easy to forget that you're using an interpreter for an esoteric language when a game appears :) 00:44:04 <{^Raven^}> ROFL! 00:44:39 <{^Raven^}> I know that bf is turing complete but I needed to prove that it was possible to do 00:45:17 I don't think I know any other bf program that I'd want to run longer than 1 minute 00:45:26 This, I could keep running for hours :) 00:45:47 <{^Raven^}> thanks aardwolf that is a big compliment 00:47:05 <{^Raven^}> it shows that esoteric languages can be used to create useful software for a mainstream audience 00:48:20 yep 00:49:07 I find it fun to think about people who play it without knowing what language it's written in, and then out of curiosity they open the .b file and see all those weird symbols :) 00:54:48 <{^Raven^}> lk.png makes an interesting backdrop 00:55:51 yeah, actually... :) 00:57:13 hmm I wonder if I could use those matches on the dynamite... 00:57:30 *saves* 00:58:56 <{^Raven^}> as non-command colours are treated as whitespace, it should be possible to embed an image within the program 00:59:35 yeah now that you mention it I should still optimize the interpreter to jump over nops 01:00:28 <{^Raven^}> users could create logos that the program would flow around 01:01:19 yeah, and it's even possible to hide code in an image 01:02:39 it would look consipicious of course 01:03:09 <{^Raven^}> unless the image appears to be a random dot stereogram 01:03:21 <{^Raven^}> i wouldn't like to try and code that though 01:05:48 Just uploaded an interpreter that will jump over series of nops (won't make a difference for Lost Kingdom of course) 01:09:30 <{^Raven^}> i would never have imagined using paint shop pro as a programmers editor :P 01:10:59 I think Piet was the first language to use an image as source :) 01:15:38 <{^Raven^}> i've got lk.png down to 77.8K and it still works! 01:18:36 <{^Raven^}> http://jonripley.com/volatile/lk2.png 01:19:21 Did you use a better png encoder? 01:20:11 (than kolourpaint's) 01:20:58 <{^Raven^}> yeah, used PSP and have confirmed that the images are binary identical 01:21:53 <{^Raven^}> uncompressed it's a 4Mb sprite 01:22:01 I'll see how big it is when saved with the gimp 01:22:50 136kb, and I set compression level to highest 01:23:05 I miss PSP in Linux :( 01:25:17 aha! managed to bring it to 72KB with the gimp 01:25:30 by using indexed color with 16 colors 01:28:04 I'm off to bed now, bye 01:28:32 -!- Aardwolf has quit ("Ik zen der is mee weg"). 01:28:54 <{^Raven^}> me three it's early 01:29:13 <{^Raven^}> nite wildhalcyon 01:32:35 night! 01:34:06 wait.. who's going where now? 01:36:15 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:37:01 -!- kipple has joined. 02:47:33 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:11:42 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:37:45 -!- lament has joined. 07:07:14 -!- nooga has joined. 07:07:17 hello 07:12:53 -!- nooga has quit. 07:16:35 -!- nooga has joined. 07:48:12 hehe 07:48:29 i looked at that: http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m0216922/brainloller/lk.png 07:48:47 and now i want to create a image based esolang ! ;d 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:17:39 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:24:14 -!- tokigun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:32:05 -!- nooga has joined. 08:57:29 -!- tokigun has joined. 09:02:38 hi tokigun 09:07:50 All the cool kids make image-based esolangs. 09:08:08 What's wrong nooga ... aren't you cool ... /me gives nooga an image-bong. 11:09:21 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 11:13:32 <{^Raven^}> mornin Aardwolf 11:17:14 hi 11:43:28 you know what's fun, draw some random lines or pixels on lk.png, save it, and run that. I got this output: 11:43:30 a bed. FiFüûiiøúüiùGiø mockeryy 11:43:32 ye 11:43:32 a^y[^Y^y`^[Zy4yYüUZyÿ[[^y`[y`yü_`yXüÿ_y[a`_ÿy`[yü 11:43:32 road. 11:44:35 <{^Raven^}> hehehe 11:46:22 <{^Raven^}> I like the idea that brainroller has about 16.7 million different NOP instructions 11:46:26 <{^Raven^}> That hsa to be a record 11:49:18 hehe 11:50:36 4 billion if you use a RGBA png :) 11:51:29 <{^Raven^}> that's almost one NOP per human on the planet 11:52:04 :) 11:55:03 I think I found a bug in my png decoder, it gives an error on a png while other decoders can perfectly open it 12:06:03 oh it's not a problem after all, it's because I was loading the image while kolourpaint was still busy saving it 12:07:26 -!- grim_bed has changed nick to grim_. 12:10:58 >y 12:10:58 Restoring... 12:10:58 Wm qrmpcb e_kc. 12:10:58 You have reclaimed your birthright and your crown. 12:10:59 *** You have won *** 12:11:01 You scored 1 points out of a possible 3. 12:11:58 darn now I know the ending :( 12:15:52 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 12:18:47 -!- nooga has quit. 12:54:18 -!- kipple has joined. 12:58:10 <{^Raven^}> hehe, oops 12:58:18 <{^Raven^}> and you told everyone 12:58:41 <{^Raven^}> (it's all in the back story anyways) 13:03:13 I keep dying in the cave due to the cat :) 13:05:19 I drew a map on paper showing all connections in the forest and the path and such :) 13:31:47 <{^Raven^}> try doing something different 13:33:17 <{^Raven^}> *ly 14:02:16 I'm already at 75/100 points in the meantime :) 14:07:01 <{^Raven^}> very nice 14:08:01 <{^Raven^}> I'm tempted to call my new game 23:15 after the version of brainloller that compiled for me 14:08:51 <{^Raven^}> (its not an esoteric project though, just for the 2k adventure comp) 14:09:36 make sure it wins the competition :) 14:10:16 a question, does the catacomb maze change after the fire is out? 14:12:22 (99 points) 14:21:12 <{^Raven^}> nope 14:21:56 <{^Raven^}> (some people never make it through the catacombs) 14:27:29 I managed to make a map of the catacombs by marking all rooms with a different object (there were a bit too few objects to mark them all though ;)) 14:33:01 <{^Raven^}> hehehe 14:33:23 It's a very confusing map full of arrows, because of all those rooms connecting to themselves and such 14:34:19 I'm trying to open the metal door no 14:34:20 w 14:38:54 You have reclaimed your birthright and your crown. 14:38:54 *** You have won *** 14:38:54 You scored 99 points out of a possible 100. 14:38:54 You have earned the rank of Master, First Class. 14:39:36 (I knew that getting all points wouldn't be easy, it's always like that in adventur games ;)) 14:49:11 <{^Raven^}> (the last lousy point) 14:49:37 <{^Raven^}> congrats on beating the game 14:50:45 ty 14:51:36 it was fun :) 14:53:58 <{^Raven^}> 15:33:46 -!- nooga has joined. 15:33:50 hi 15:35:49 i have an idea for an image based esolang:> 15:36:31 wanna hear? 15:43:17 shoot :) 15:45:25 brb 15:46:25 em 15:46:26 :> 15:46:39 i thought about it 15:47:43 and i think i've invented just a image notation that can be applied to a number of esolangs 15:47:55 the thing is... 15:49:58 to calculate delta between two pixels 15:50:18 and depending on that delta select the instruction to execute 15:50:43 wait a sec, i'll introdouce a little example 15:54:36 d = delta = abs((R1-R2+G1-G2+B1-B2)/3) 15:54:36 for 15:54:36 d = 0 : NOP 15:54:36 0 8 16 15:54:38 etc. 15:55:04 for brainfuck 16:06:51 -!- Freya has joined. 16:08:55 -!- Freya has changed nick to nooga_. 16:08:57 oh so you introduced some freedom so that you can choose colors for pixels to allow your code to look like photos and such :) 16:09:03 yes 16:09:18 sounds cool 16:10:20 and such image can be compiled into brainfuck, befunge or maybe other language ... 16:10:50 I'd want to suggest that a large d is also a nop 16:11:17 then when you need to make a large color difference at the edges of things in your picture it won't disturb the code 16:12:16 good idea 16:18:47 heh 16:19:49 -!- jix has joined. 16:19:58 cholera, nie nie mogles gdzie indziej?! 16:20:11 woo.. ups, excuse me, wrong window :> 16:20:18 hrhr 16:20:19 moin 16:20:22 hi jix 16:20:27 hey 16:20:52 is that a sort of afrikaans? 16:20:59 moin? 16:21:02 no 16:21:06 hrhr? 16:21:06 what nooga_ said :) 16:21:37 no 16:21:41 thats Polish :D 16:21:47 ok :D 16:22:07 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:22:20 i heard that Polish is one of the most difficult languages on the earth ;p 16:22:46 Dutch is pretty hard too I heard :) 16:23:10 brainfuck on the other hand, is a pretty easy language 16:24:33 german has a weird grammar 16:24:37 but coding difficulty is inversely proportional to the language complexity 16:24:59 nooga_: no.. 16:25:22 ? 16:25:27 malbolge is very complex 16:25:30 -!- nooga_ has changed nick to nooga. 16:25:46 and its verrrrry difficuilt to code in it 16:26:09 but C# is rather more complex than malbolge, and it's fairly easy to code in it 16:26:43 wait a minute, I must check that malbolge 16:26:45 ;] 16:28:33 it's a programming language from hell ;) 16:28:44 FROM MICROSOFT 16:28:49 oops, capslock :> 16:28:56 no, it's not THAT bad 16:29:23 i dont like M$ but i like C# :> 16:29:34 it's good whan you don't have time to play 16:29:49 what's so good about C#? (never used it) 16:29:54 make an idea, code, finish 16:30:02 without any bigger problems 16:30:18 hah ruby has one step less make an idea (write it down using ruby code because you start thinking in ruby code), finish 16:30:41 I just wanted to mention ruby and python :) 16:30:57 umm 16:31:20 but C# syntax is quite comfortable 16:31:33 i also like perl, but it's another story 16:31:36 ruby's syntax is really nice 16:31:50 perl is too cryptic for a non-esoteric langauge 16:32:10 i heard an opinion that perl is a big esolang :D 16:32:12 perl is really useless... 16:32:56 perl is old 16:33:09 and perl code is unmaintainable 16:33:38 nooga: c is old too 16:33:58 C++ > C 16:34:14 C# > C++ > C :> 16:34:24 Ruby > * muahahahaaha ;) 16:34:28 no way, C++ code compiles in any platform :) 16:34:40 and is not proprietary 16:34:49 obj-c is nice too 16:35:11 it's a bit more dynamic than c++ 16:36:02 and there is obj-c++ which allows you too mix c++ and obj-c (and c) 16:36:09 :D 16:36:13 there's also D 16:36:33 i really like obj-c's memory management 16:37:01 that's something i'm missing in c++ 16:37:18 I just use std::vectors in C++ these days, no worries and always reliable 16:37:49 malloc and new and free are horrible 16:37:50 Aardwolf: i'm talking about [object retain] and [object release] 16:38:03 o ic 16:38:38 if you use some objects there and there and there it helps a lot avoiding memory leaks/freeing of used memory 16:39:13 it's like manual reference counting 16:39:54 i'd like doing this with c++ templates 16:40:02 or adding a method to all c++ classes 16:40:44 because c++ is faster than obj-c because obj-c has to do method lookups for every method call 16:41:04 it's as dynamic as ruby if you don't count the c types like int etc... 16:41:21 but the implementation of the lookups is a bit more low-level so it's still faster than ruby 16:41:23 -!- wildhalcyon_ has joined. 16:41:29 Aardwolf! 16:41:30 moin wildhalcyon 16:41:33 MOIN! 16:41:36 <-- happy 16:41:39 afternoon 16:42:05 O_O 16:42:05 How's everything going? 16:42:26 fine ty 16:42:34 How's brainloller? 16:42:44 it's still laughing out loud 16:42:46 :D 16:43:16 Good to hear 16:43:43 I had an idea for it.. but Im not sure how crazy you would be about it 16:43:44 it has a better spec and a better interpreter than yesterday so it's going fine :) 16:43:59 o rly? 16:43:59 ha 16:44:09 C# has got the best MM and GC 16:44:20 i mean .NET 16:44:24 eeeeeeeeeeeeeeek 16:44:30 don't say that foul word :o 16:44:46 Suppose the entire instruction set fit in a single color space - like all the instructions were Red instructions 16:45:16 Add two more instructions to flip up and down between the color spaces, so you could theoretically encode 3 instructions per pixel 16:45:40 Add that to a language like SNUSP and you've got yourself an esolang to be PROUD of 16:45:49 and if you dont want to do it. HA. I will 16:46:06 wildhalcyon_: look above, how do you like my idea with deltas ? 16:46:18 Well, each pixel is 24 bit (32 if you add A channel but that's too annoying to edit in painting programs) and since there are only 10 instructions (4-bit instructions) you could get up to 6 instructions per pixel :) 16:47:47 Aardwolf: even if you include the two switch instructions? 16:48:12 nooga: I like the idea, but I don't like the equation 16:48:16 with 4 bit you can get up to 16 instructions 16:48:22 wildhalcyon_: why not? :> 16:48:52 try d = delta = [abs(R1-R2) + abs(G1-G2) + abs(B1-B2)] mod n maybe? 16:49:50 hm 16:49:55 You could still div by 3, but that could allow for non-integer values for the delta 16:50:02 unless its just integer arithmetic 16:50:24 hey if you make the n in the formula equal to the amount of instructions, you get a lot of freedom 16:50:29 then you can literally make almost any image 16:50:46 exactly ;-) 16:50:54 because then if there are say 10 instructions, a color difference of 0, 10, 20, 30 are all the same instruction :) 16:51:08 small color differences on the order of n per 2^24 gives a wide range of acceptable small noise values 16:51:45 You could also try abs((65536*R1+256*G1+B1) - (65536*R2+256*G2+B2)) mod n 16:52:04 :> 16:53:11 hehe 16:53:18 that might work better for a larger instruction set 16:54:12 right 16:55:20 good idea 16:57:24 hy 16:57:37 or just 65536*R+256*G+B mod 10 (for 10 instructions), then a brainfuck to image converter could take an original source image and modify the pixels a little bit so that they all have the correct value after mod 10, you will barely see the difference with the original image 16:57:42 what are those lemons on the esolang wiki? ;p 16:57:52 they are limes :) 16:58:02 whatever 16:58:04 lemons are yellow 16:58:23 i don't se a connection betweens limes and esolangs 16:58:25 :0 16:58:28 me neither 16:58:30 an esoteric fruit? 16:58:35 but it looks nice at leats 16:58:49 maybe someone can design some logo ;p 16:58:51 there are porbably more esoteric fruits than lime 16:58:55 a sophisticated converter would probably implement a function to modify different colors up/down depending on local content 16:59:04 Im not sure WHAT about the local content, but something 16:59:15 i thought about that 16:59:18 so 16:59:53 i tried to invant a encryption algorhitm that will use images 16:59:57 invent 17:00:24 and that idea with delta came to my head ;p 17:00:56 its not really an encryption algorithm though 17:01:10 thats right ;p 17:01:33 In my medical imaging class I was devising a befunge program I call The Diggler. 17:01:45 nice name 17:01:46 It travels in a straight line, encrypting/mangling whatever is in its path 17:02:21 but it can help to smuggle some text in image 17:03:14 Mind if I make a new language that uses this formula 65536*R+256*G+B mod 11? (8 bf instructions, 2 rotation instructions, 1 nop) 17:03:21 It would be interesting to devise a rewritable bf variant that did the same thing. Probably MUCH harder considering how big an encryption algo in BF would need to be 17:03:22 and has the same specs as brainloller for the rest 17:03:40 I'd call it braincopter 17:04:24 Mind if I implement a SNUSP derivative of Brainloller that uses SNUSP code with the 3 color space idea above? 17:04:39 braindaub 17:05:29 Now all that remains, is finding a nice computer rendered image of 1482x1480 pixels that shows a fantasy setting similar to that of Lost Kingdom 17:05:57 brb 17:06:06 You could include an braincopter-decoder which replaces the image with the brainloller equivalent 17:06:21 will do 17:06:35 almost no modification to the interpreter is needed :D 17:06:48 only the bftobmp translator is a bit harder 17:07:15 how convenient! 17:08:15 {^Raven^}, have you got a large image that represents the world of Lost Kingdom, that I could use? :) 17:11:20 only 2 lines of the brainloller interpreter had to be changed to make it a braincopter interpreter! 17:11:25 err make that 1 line! 17:11:53 darn no 12, I also need to include changed numbers in the switch statement 17:12:18 heh 17:12:34 i think that Lost Kingdom was written in BFBASIC 17:12:48 <{^Raven^}> nooga: it was 17:12:52 it's almost impossible to code such thing in pure bf 17:13:56 <{^Raven^}> it would definately be a non-trivial excercise to debug 17:13:58 yeah but once you have the LK brainfuck source it's easy to convert it to almost anything 17:19:11 Anyone remember the name of the befunge derivative that had commands for picking up elements above and below the pointer? 17:19:20 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: I have no images 17:20:40 g2g 17:24:57 hmhm 17:25:49 cool 17:25:54 thanks wildhalcyon 17:26:28 now i'm able to write an image based esolang 17:28:10 yay! 17:28:29 We'll still need a nice esolang -> audio spec 17:34:01 There's an audio watermarking algorithm thats resistant to compression (suitable for mp3s) but it doesn't encode a very large watermark 17:35:29 http://ecwww.eurecom.fr/~doerr/icip2002Miller.pdf 17:41:55 pap 17:42:01 i mean g2g :> 17:42:05 bye 17:42:08 -!- nooga has quit. 17:44:15 lol 17:44:20 Ive g2g too, later folks 17:44:28 -!- wildhalcyon_ has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 17:44:28 *looks at his keyboard to see the distance between the g and the p key* 17:44:32 cya 18:29:34 it coulda been some kinda freaky glitch 18:41:50 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:25:03 -!- kipple has joined. 20:32:30 -!- puzzlet has quit (Client Quit). 20:36:31 -!- puzzlet has joined. 21:06:59 {^Raven^}, here's Lost Kingdom again, but now as braincopter source and with a forest image as background: http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m0216922/braincopter/lk.png 21:07:33 The code is pretty much invisible, but is really in the pixels :) 21:11:08 ccol 21:11:10 argh 21:11:26 i have to sleep now canÄz zype anymore--- 21:12:04 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:41:25 -!- calamari has joined. 22:41:41 hi 22:57:25 hi 22:58:29 Aardwolf: are you Adrian Chiang? 22:58:38 no, I'm Lode Vandevenne 22:59:15 ahh, ok.. they emailed me and I wasn't sure I if knew them or not :) 22:59:46 just had a (possibly) interesting idea, though 22:59:57 I might be interested too :D 23:00:09 I could have wiki files that were symbolic links to other webpages 23:00:29 like, you think you're in the wiki but you're actually on another site? 23:00:47 so, for example Lost Kingdom wouldn't have to be copied to the wiki (1) it's huge (2) copyright violation 23:01:21 so instead I'd just save a link to the Lost_Kingdom source code 23:01:39 I hope that those symbolic links won't encourage people to use it too much and not make any more public domain content anymore 23:01:56 wouldn't be writable, for obvious reasons.. but would expand the code base quite a bit without killing the wiki 23:02:27 hmm, I wonder if that'd be a problem 23:03:14 Well as long as it's obvious that it's a link to another website it's fine, I guess? 23:04:14 perhaps it's rude.. but I don't think there is a law against it :) riaa can get away with taking down links because ppl know they can't put up enough $ to defend against any lawsuits 23:04:47 so... you got enough $? :D 23:04:57 no, I'll take down links if ppl complain ;) 23:05:50 or even better would be to redirect to a explanation message 23:06:17 so what would such a symbolic link look like, for example the Lost Kingdom source code? 23:06:30 well currently files look like this: 23:06:31 And will it use bandwidth of the external website everytime someone views the wiki page? 23:06:36 * filename 23:06:54
program
23:07:27 re:bandwidth: no, it won't use bandwidth unless the file was viewed 23:08:12 it would need to be used one when the file was created (to get the size).. so I can imagine something like: 23:08:43 * -> filename 23:09:03
url\nsize
23:09:29 -> might need to be tweaked, that's just off the top of my head 23:10:00 it's nice in that it starts with -, usually reserved for program options 23:10:14 also > is for redriection of stdout 23:10:20 So basically, it would be like a link that can be put inside the article instead of at external resources, and the size will be shown? :) 23:10:25 yeah 23:10:37 but when you use the "file" it loads from the exteral site 23:11:02 oh yeah I see, I understand why some people might complain :) 23:11:48 perhaps it could be loaded once 23:12:03 then after that it would be in memory and never downloaded again 23:12:11 (at least for that session) 23:12:52 that seems okay 23:15:01 I'm just glad to have a shell and hosting with no bandwidth limits for $5 a month :) 23:15:16 wow, how did you get that? :o 23:15:28 csoft.net, directory account.. still offered 23:15:57 I'm looking to have some webscpace once my univ page is gone, but I'll look for a Belgian company I think :) 23:16:20 wow, 650mb space.. thought it was 250mb, guess they upgraded us :) 23:16:27 wow :) 23:16:44 * {^Raven^} hosts his own domain 23:16:56 hi raven 23:17:01 <{^Raven^}> hi calamari 23:17:03 Well yeah I hope to have my own .be domain one day :) 23:17:09 see my scheming to use your bandwidth? 23:17:18 <{^Raven^}> at least i get to see the stats 23:17:38 does it seem underhanded, or is it okay? 23:18:08 <{^Raven^}> for me it's fine as long as it's not using 100% bandwidth 100% of the time 23:19:34 I began to see that the wiki was great for storing experiments and small programs.. but for huge pre-made stuff, it was not very appropriate (i.e. almost anything compiled with bfbasic :) 23:20:00 <{^Raven^}> hehe, most bfbasic programs are quite small - usually 23:20:55 <{^Raven^}> it's not like you will be stealing bandwidth for silly things like images 23:20:55 glad to hear it, although I'm not sure I believe it.. :) 23:21:16 unless I add brainloller, lol 23:21:35 <{^Raven^}> and as long as the original page is linked and the source is listed then you're not pretending that it's yours 23:22:01 <{^Raven^}> calamari: they're not pictures - they're programs ;) 23:22:25 * {^Raven^} has lk.png as his backdrop 23:22:41 {^Raven^}, : seen the Braincopter lk.png already? :) 23:22:45 great idea.. :) 23:23:02 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: not yet 23:23:15 http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m0216922/braincopter/ 23:23:28 it looks like a normal image of a forest tho, it's actually boring when you can't really see the code :) 23:23:34 raven: haha that's an aawesome background 23:24:14 (btw the forest picture might be copyrighted) 23:24:55 (it would be much nicer to have a lost-kingdom related, computer rendered image, rendered at the correct size) 23:25:23 <{^Raven^}> so the code is stored as delta variances within the image? 23:25:34 no, each pixel is a command on it's own 23:25:52 the command is gotten as (65536*R+256*G+B) mod 11 (because there are 11 commands including the NOP) 23:25:57 btw, is it supposed to be Enchanced rather than Enhanced?\ 23:26:22 enchanced is not an english word 23:26:26 according to google :) 23:26:33 <{^Raven^}> it's Enhanced 23:26:52 <{^Raven^}> (it would need to be, it's almost 1000 times bigger than the original) 23:27:02 hehe 23:27:26 <{^Raven^}> Ardvark: that you pulled it off (the forest piccy) pretty impressive 23:27:28 raven: btw did you enter the compo? 23:27:32 btw I finished the "short description" verson too, it was just too easy because of the maps I drew, but I was stuck on the cliff without compass once ;) 23:27:38 it's Aardwolf btw 23:27:55 <{^Raven^}> oops, i knew i'd do that at least once 23:28:11 what happens if you press an a and then the tab button? 23:28:15 {^Raven^}, {^Raven^} 23:28:24 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf, 23:28:31 :D 23:29:19 <{^Raven^}> calamari: My game is almost finished, will enter it in a day or two 23:29:21 settings, preferences, input box, nick completion suffix 23:29:41 raven: oh, did he extend the deadline? 23:30:06 <{^Raven^}> calamari: yes, deadline is 15th of Sept 23:30:07 calamari: 23:30:11 yeah a : is better than a , 23:30:54 what sort of game is it? 23:31:29 <{^Raven^}> kind of sci-fi text adventure, possibly in the lost kingdom universe on earth a thousand years after the war 23:32:44 in the BF version, is it intentional that there are just 10 items so that every item ID is a single letter? I ask because I noticed it sees 10 as a different value than 1 (unlike it seeing throw as the same as t), and because of the 55 example with the dwarf 23:32:57 *a single digit I mean 23:37:40 <{^Raven^}> it was intentional to simplify the parser, there were only 10 objects in the original game so it seemed logical to use 0-9 23:38:21 <{^Raven^}> for the parser, only the first character and the last digit are significant, everything else is ignored 23:38:37 Oh, I see 23:38:52 were there a lot of modifications needed in the original BASIC code, to make it work for BF? 23:39:22 <{^Raven^}> a few modifications were needed to BFBASIC 23:39:42 <{^Raven^}> but the game was completely written from scratch in BFBASIC 23:40:10 nice 23:40:40 to print something like "99/100", I guess there are conversions needed from char value to decimal output, does BFBASIC handle that sort of things automatically? 23:40:44 <{^Raven^}> the original source was 2.74Kb of BBC BASIC, the BFBASIC source is over 80Kb long 23:40:54 whoa 23:41:38 <{^Raven^}> it's only 2,688 lines of code 23:42:34 <{^Raven^}> to print 99/100 you would use: PRINT score;"/";maxscore 23:44:04 <{^Raven^}> BFBASIC is a very powerful language 23:44:09 wow, the BBCBASIC code looks very obfuscated :D 23:44:30 <{^Raven^}> the BFBASIC code? 23:45:11 The file LostKingdom.bcc from LostKingdom17.zip 23:46:20 <{^Raven^}> it is, even if you can load it into BBC BASIC and LIST it (to see the tokens and stuff) 23:47:03 <{^Raven^}> the game text is compressed and encrypted to about 75% original size 23:47:55 I'm testing the bbcbasic version (in Wine emulator), now I realize how different it is from the BF version 23:49:40 <{^Raven^}> calamari: want to know some stats of the new game? 23:50:52 <{^Raven^}> it's a lot more limited but was still the best game by far entered into the 2004 comp 23:51:05 yeah in 2.7KB... :) 23:51:10 <{^Raven^}> nothing else came close in depth and complexity 23:52:26 <{^Raven^}> have you seen: http://jonripley.com/bb4w/software/MiniLogo.html 23:52:50 <{^Raven^}> it is a complete implementation of turtle graphics in one-line of BBC BASIC and only 250 bytes lobg 23:53:58 cool :) 23:56:18 <{^Raven^}> my game for the 2005 comp is significantly more advanced then Lost Kingdom 23:57:57 is it also 2.7KB in size? 23:59:14 <{^Raven^}> 2.4kb of game code with a 7.9Kb data file (so far) 23:59:38 <{^Raven^}> (as we can have an 8K data file this year) 2005-09-09: 00:00:07 oh, handy 00:00:34 <{^Raven^}> it made it harder because there was too much that could be done 00:01:05 do you know gamedev.net? 00:01:54 <{^Raven^}> not heard of it 00:02:31 oh ok, it's a forum for game developers I thought you might know it because of you interest in developing games :) 00:04:45 <{^Raven^}> i'm a chiefly a utility/tool programmer 00:08:30 <{^Raven^}> calamari: have you had any chance to play with or work on BFBASIC in the last few months? 00:09:26 * calamari is back 00:09:33 and leaving again.. meeting 00:09:43 nope.. and wont have any time, sorry 00:09:45 bbl 00:09:46 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 00:19:55 -!- fleft has joined. 00:19:59 -!- fleft has quit (Client Quit). 00:28:32 It's sort of stupid that Category pages only show a listing after you added a description 00:51:45 before you add a description there is no page 00:56:13 I improved and added a few things, hopefully for the better :) 01:48:23 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:49:03 -!- kipple has joined. 01:53:47 -!- Aardwolf has quit ("Ik zen der is mee weg"). 02:10:31 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:30:40 -!- heatsink has joined. 03:18:06 Woohoo! 03:51:55 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:17:07 -!- lament has joined. 04:32:28 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 06:23:58 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("Whoops, There I go"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 11:57:10 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 12:17:28 -!- kipple has joined. 12:18:34 aw, yesterday's log is broken 13:06:08 I have no problems viewing yesterday's log 13:12:52 *opens the log in other browser* 13:13:11 aha the old version is cached and refuses to redownload after pressing F5 13:13:19 stupid mozilla :) 13:17:19 Can a language that only has a stack, that can only push and pop (no swap, rolldown, ...) be turing complete? 13:20:32 Aardwolf: if it's equivalent to a pushdown automaton then no 13:21:02 probably not 13:21:42 Aardwolf: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pushdown_automaton 13:39:44 it might depend on the specifications; if it has div/mod and unlimited integers it might be TC because the top element of the stack might act as a counter 13:41:02 interesting 13:42:29 appearantly if you have two stacks it can be TC 13:46:57 see also http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_machine 13:47:53 "He also describes a variation which is Turing-complete with only one register; this variation requires that the machine has operations to: 13:47:53 * multiply the register by a constant; and 13:47:53 * check to see if it is divisible by a constant, and if so, divide by that constant and affect an alternate state transition. " 13:57:41 Aardwolf: with two stacks you can emulate an unbounded tape, so that is definately sufficient 14:04:22 -!- jix has joined. 14:06:41 moin! 14:20:00 y helo thar! 14:46:27 i'm trying to build a minimalistic turing complete language for writing the smallest ruby interpreter for an esolang ever 14:46:45 hmm maybe my bfx.rb is the smallest ruby esolang interpreter but it's too large 14:46:47 cool 14:48:13 so it has to be even more minimalistic than bf? good luck 14:48:31 I'm designing another image based language, pretty minimalistic but more complex than brainloller 14:48:40 no not more minimalistic than bf 14:48:52 but the implementation in ruby is more minimalistic 14:48:57 ok 14:49:31 I'll call it Mycelium 14:50:54 jix: so, what part of bf takes the most bytes of ruby code to implement? 14:51:24 hmm 14:51:36 you can't really say which part takes most bytes 14:52:35 can I see the ruby code? 14:53:18 $>.sync=m="\0";j=0;eval$<.read.tr(x='^[]+><,.-',"").gsub(/./){%w{while\ m[\ 14:53:18 j]>0 end m[j]+=1 (j+=1)>=m.size&&m<<0 j-=1 m[j]=STDIN.getc||0 putc\ m[j] 14:53:18 m[j]-=1}[x.index($&)-1]+";"}#esoteric@irc.freenode.net Jannis Harder 2005# 14:54:28 dropping IO is of course an easy way to shave off some chars, but a bit cheating :) 14:54:42 IO is not necessary for TC 14:54:47 but i want IO 14:56:47 idea! 15:01:28 bad idea... 15:07:41 oisc-a-like is pretty easy to implement 15:14:30 the cpu is implemented in 70 bytes but IO is missing 15:14:46 oh in 68 byte 15:16:11 in 64 byte 15:19:59 cpu with io in 116 bytes 15:27:22 -!- int-e has joined. 15:38:40 -!- int-e has left (?). 15:38:45 nice :) 15:59:35 -!- nooga has joined. 15:59:37 hi 16:08:22 lo 16:08:51 ge 16:11:26 hmh 16:15:10 i just discovered that i just can't get myself to write a big and useful application 16:15:37 i'm only able to make to spend my time on something useless but funny ;p 16:15:44 like esolangs 16:15:55 hehe. 16:16:40 how big is 'big' in this context? 16:19:46 dunno, CMS maybe 16:23:23 i'm at 149 byte! 16:23:38 huh? is it getting bigger? 16:23:43 yes 16:23:48 my IO was incomlpete 16:23:54 no EOF handling 16:24:19 how far is that from the bf version? 16:24:29 the BF IO is complete 16:24:31 with EOF == 0 16:24:49 I meant how many bytes smaller is this one than the BF one 16:24:54 oh 16:25:11 177 vs 149 16:25:26 149 fits nicely on two sig-lines :) 16:25:53 what are you doing jix 16:25:55 ? 16:26:14 writing a OISC like interpreter with at less bytes as possible 16:27:25 hm 16:31:37 in what language ?;p 16:31:45 ruby 16:31:59 blah 16:32:09 blah? 16:32:14 i dun like it, it reminds me of ADA ;p 16:32:29 i don't know ada but ruby really rules 16:33:00 at first you think that syntax is weird but if you start using it you'll love the syntax 16:34:52 yes 16:34:59 the syntax is werid 16:35:09 i dont like that ends everywhere 16:35:27 i don't like } everywhere 16:36:04 but writing } everywhere is much faster then writing end everywhere 16:36:33 for } i need 2 keys pressed at the same time.. i'm faster pressing 3 keys one after each other 16:38:49 and i'm faster at writing letters than special chars 16:39:39 ¹ó³æñꜿŸ :> 16:39:52 ?? 16:40:06 and ruby has rails! 16:40:17 i'm accustomed with writing special chars ;p 16:40:21 rails? 16:40:29 the super-cool web framewrok 16:40:42 http://www.rubyonrails.com/ 16:41:59 huh 16:42:00 looks cool 16:42:39 but when i seek something to learn ruby i find only stupid manuals ;p 16:42:46 but there are ends everywhere ;) 16:43:01 buy pickaxe 16:43:04 2 16:43:10 or read pickaxe 1 online for free 16:43:16 long time ago i coded in pascal ;p 16:43:35 it was in 1995 ;p 16:43:51 so i know something about ends ;p 16:44:15 but in pascal you write ENDs and not ends, right? 16:44:24 yea 16:44:40 and begins begins and begins... ;p 16:44:51 http://ruby-doc.org/docs/ProgrammingRuby/ << i learned ruby using that 16:45:02 it's for ruby 1.6 but most things are true for 1.8 too 16:45:26 there are begins in ruby too.. for error handling 16:45:31 ill check it 16:46:07 begin\ncode\nrescue RuntimeError\nputs "Failed!"\nend 16:46:37 ? 16:47:17 replace \n with newlines 16:47:31 you could use ; but in ruby you rarely use ; 16:47:46 hm 16:47:48 looks simple 16:47:50 oh and ruby has irb 16:48:00 we are thinking about using ruby here where I work 16:48:10 grim_: cool 16:48:26 I have not had a chance to look at it properly though 16:48:44 one thing i like about ruby is the community 16:49:37 hm, i must check that whole ruby 16:49:57 for i in 1..x statement looks cool 16:50:28 (1..x).each do |i| is more rubysque 16:50:39 and you start to love blocks 16:50:42 * grim_ prefers haskell 16:50:57 haskell is a nice language too 16:51:25 for some things functional languages are the best solution for some things functional and oo languages are good and for some things oo is better 16:51:51 haskell suxx 16:52:14 nooga: writing webframeworks in haskell sucks 16:52:20 all i know about haskell is that it's an old, academic language ;p 16:52:33 object oriented ;p 16:53:01 common misconceptions ;) but I am no great advocate of it 16:53:05 I just find it fun 16:53:22 haskell has some pretty cool things.. like generating a list of ALL prime numbers and print the first 10 16:53:32 that was my first usefull haskell program 16:54:09 lazy evaluation is fun generally 16:54:53 hyh 16:55:14 one of my first haskell programs: http://rafb.net/paste/results/TzQvS266.html 16:55:18 ruby seems very practical anyway 16:55:22 class Song 16:55:23 @@count = 0 16:55:41 why i can't just write: count = 0 16:55:43 ? 16:55:51 nooga: because count is a class-variable 16:55:59 it's a variable shared by all instances of that class 16:56:01 that sucks 16:56:07 a 16:56:17 normal local variables have no special sign in front of them 16:56:45 just global-variables (rarely used) instance variables (called member variables in some other languages) and class variables 16:56:58 sometimes class variables are called singleton variables 16:58:26 * grim_ wonders why 16:58:43 can it not derive that from context? 16:58:43 because singleton classes are classes that have only one instance 16:58:58 and class variables are shared by all instances so they exist only once 16:58:58 um 16:58:59 aha 16:59:58 I'm going to stop now as I don't know enough about the language to discuss it 17:06:31 -!- nooga has quit. 17:10:05 153 bytes 17:11:26 ah.. added a new feature i'd like to have: 161 bytes 17:15:09 157 17:15:14 156 17:19:43 155 17:28:02 ich habe hello world in subskin geschrieben! 17:28:09 arg 17:28:10 wrong lang ^^ 17:28:18 i've written hello world in subskin 17:28:38 i was switching between german and english too fast... 17:29:17 subskin == SUBtract and SKip If Negative 17:30:55 i have cat.subskin too 17:34:33 something's just popped into my head 17:34:47 it appears to be a language where the only data type is the memory reference 17:35:13 and where memory references are also interpreted as instructions 17:35:24 i just have memory references 17:35:36 only memory references 17:36:02 yes, referencing only data from within the source file 17:36:14 and addressing that memory lexically 17:36:25 (lexical memory addresses have been in my head for a while now) 17:37:06 eg [7:12] refers to line 7, word 12 17:37:55 * to dereference (presumably getting another memory reference in return) 17:38:25 * grim_ shakes his head 17:38:48 already it hurts to think about 17:44:51 i removed the sync feature 17:45:46 here is the code: 17:45:46 m=readlines.map{|e|e.hex};loop{m[1]<0||$>< STDIN.getc||256;a,b,c=m[m[0],3];q=(m[c]=m[a]-m[b])<0?6:3;m[0]+=q}rescue 0 17:50:50 <{^Raven^}> grim_: are you a RISC OS user? I saw you mentioned it the other day 17:56:29 {^Raven^}: a lapsed RISC OS user I'm afraid 17:56:43 never upgraded from my A3000 17:57:36 I've played with Red Squirrel a bit for my nostalgia fix 18:51:16 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 19:03:12 <{^Raven^}> grim_: i still use a RISC PC every day 20:01:05 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 20:18:10 Im trying to write a 2D procedural object-oriented language. Damn, this is hard work 20:23:30 {^Raven^}: it would be lovely but I can't see myself switching back in the near future 20:55:56 -!- jix has joined. 20:56:59 i'm back 21:09:15 lo jix 21:12:36 * jix is going to write his User:jix and Jannis Harder wiki page 21:21:45 wb jix 21:35:13 who has write access to the file archive? 21:55:09 i'm working at the Subskin wiki pae 21:55:10 +g 22:46:08 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:53:37 * grim_ considers what instruction set to use 22:59:58 -!- kipple has left (?). 23:01:11 -!- kipple has joined. 23:08:44 * grim_ considers bed 23:08:51 bed wins 23:09:23 -!- grim_ has changed nick to grim_bed. 23:22:30 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:22:34 -!- kipple has joined. 2005-09-10: 00:20:39 -!- ZeroOne_ has changed nick to ZeroOne. 00:26:06 -!- calamari has joined. 00:26:09 hi 00:48:14 -!- Flannel has joined. 00:49:34 -!- Flannel has left (?). 00:53:00 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:58:47 -!- kipple has joined. 01:16:27 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("Whoops, There I go"). 01:28:28 -!- Aardwolf has quit ("Ik zen der is mee weg"). 01:30:58 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 03:10:37 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 03:41:47 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:10:29 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:22:18 -!- calamari has joined. 04:24:58 hi 05:48:38 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 06:03:57 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("Whoops, There I go"). 06:32:48 -!- nooga has joined. 06:33:29 hi 06:35:41 hi all 06:39:14 hi puzzlet, nooga 06:39:44 well, EsoShell doesn't work with gcj.. does compile tho! :) 06:41:37 gcwhat? 06:43:35 aaa 06:43:38 java compiler 06:43:52 i don't believe in such things 06:44:50 java was designed to produce it's own bytecode 06:45:43 hehe 06:46:02 i just saw the jsux, do you know what's it? 06:46:35 jsuix 06:47:36 I have no idea what you're talking about, I feel okay about that in this channel, tho :) 06:48:03 hm 06:48:23 jsuix is a javascript unix implementation :) 06:48:45 UNIX-like OS written in JavaScript 06:48:48 http://www.masswerk.at/jsuix/ 06:51:03 click "open terminal" 06:51:19 it's amazing, they even have ported vi 06:53:52 -!- Anulka has joined. 06:54:51 -!- Anulka has changed nick to nooga_. 07:01:51 -!- nooga__ has joined. 07:07:41 nooga__: what you meant to say was 07:07:45 "java was designed to be slow" 07:07:51 a fact which i can't really agree with :) 07:11:17 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:19:04 -!- nooga_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:25:21 -!- nooga__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:47:54 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:19:55 -!- nooga has joined. 08:20:00 bleh 08:26:30 -!- Keymaker has joined. 08:26:38 argh.. 08:26:54 the gammaplex inventor is not here, right? :( 08:27:40 anyways, perhaps someone else could help me; how do it store the stack's top value to something register? 08:36:04 don't ask me :D 08:55:39 ok 08:55:45 :) 08:56:25 * nooga is trying to write a SADOL compiler for x86 09:04:41 btw, i found it out.. 09:04:46 ')' 09:05:43 oh 09:58:45 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 10:01:04 aardwolf, hellow! 10:01:09 *hello 10:01:19 you were the gammaplex author? 10:01:30 -!- jix has joined. 10:01:33 hiya 10:01:35 yes 10:01:38 ok 10:01:45 moin 10:01:49 i just 10 seconds ago completed my first ever gammaplex program: 10:01:49 uu N)u N)u N)uu y) u h) dddv 10:01:49 v K;e;y;m;a;k;e;r; v? Ds m < 10:01:49 v 2;0;0;5; )n <> ?v D ^ 10:01:50 > c B R ( ( ^ >1-)^ 10:02:00 (not very space efficient) 10:02:02 I'll check out what it does :) 10:02:17 it's nothing special but it was my first :) 10:02:22 click the screen 10:02:25 btw jix, Brainloller can't have infinite loops, the IP rotarors are reversible, and the IP starts at top left ;) 10:02:25 ha 10:03:46 Aardwolf: ahh 10:03:53 im' writing the "hunt the wumpus" game in SADOL :D 10:04:25 gotta recompile the gammaplex interpreter 10:04:30 o-k 10:04:37 Keymaker: cool 10:04:44 thanks 10:04:56 it does more than my first gammaplex program 10:04:59 it works... 10:05:03 heh 10:05:56 who has write access to the esolang file archive? 10:06:09 no idea 10:06:41 it makes the screen blue if you click on it? :) 10:06:47 yes 10:06:53 and the darkens it 10:06:55 ooh and it fades out 10:07:02 yes 10:07:24 neat 10:07:49 cheers 10:07:50 I think pgimeno has access 10:08:04 who will help me with my 3d engine project in gammaplex? 10:08:08 (joke) 10:08:27 that's what deltaplex is for, if I ever manage to finish it :) 10:08:41 yeah 10:08:45 drawing textured 3D triangles with only a few commands 10:08:55 mmh nice 10:09:11 there's even a terrain engine in it which is already finished :) 10:09:30 woah.. it'll be something never-seen-before 10:09:32 you just give a heightmap, a texture, a colormap, some coordinates, and the drawterrain command :) 10:10:43 heh 10:10:58 -!- nooga has quit. 10:12:48 aardwolf; how do i get random numbers for example between 0 and 50? 10:13:18 use K, then multiply it by 50 10:13:36 (not k, but K) 10:13:51 oK 10:17:01 i think we should run a gammaplex demo competition 10:17:42 c'mon people! :) 10:18:51 well why not? 10:20:07 yeah 10:20:29 should there be something theme, limitation or other? 10:20:42 hehe yeah, a limitation in code size maybe 10:21:06 yeah, that could be the best 10:21:19 and probably non-interactive demo as well? 10:21:25 can someone do better than tron3k's pong? :) 10:21:39 easy :o) 10:22:01 non interactive demos would be cool but maybe a bit slow on gammaplex 10:22:14 after all, drawing a single mandelbrot is already taking a while 10:22:15 why slow? 10:22:22 probably not slower than intereactive 10:22:37 yeah but in a non interactive the graphics are a bit more important :) 10:22:48 in interactive you can get away with two paddles and a ball :D 10:22:56 to clear; 10:23:10 i meant with "interactive" stuff that user can click buttons and something happens 10:23:24 and with "non-interactive" a demo that just runs and ignores all clickings 10:23:46 but in every case the demo should be not a still picture 10:23:59 something like those demos (Unreal and Second Reality and such) would be too slow :( 10:24:24 it won't need to be anything very awesome 10:24:41 i mean for example a bouncing ball would be neat already 10:24:49 oh that would be fast yeah :) 10:25:56 Has anyone ideas how I can optimize the interpreter? Also it has a huge switch case because there are so many commands, I wonder if that is taking away a lot of speed? 10:26:31 sorry, no idea. 10:26:57 btw; it will take about two or three weeks until i have properly spare time for this 10:27:05 but then i guess we could start a competition 10:27:12 I'm all for it 10:27:20 o-k :) 10:27:47 just wondering how we would get 'nuff entries 10:28:29 hmm I wonder if the demo scene can be attracted to gammaplex 10:28:41 You know, Deltaplex would be so much better for this sort of stuff with it's 3D graphics :) 10:28:54 heh 10:29:04 except it's harder to code in it 10:29:09 because the commands are on an image 10:30:23 i've got one idea you could possibly do 10:30:42 to optimize? 10:30:45 for example make all the deltaplex files to be some dpx packages 10:31:00 and some program to stuff all the textures, code and images into a dpx package 10:31:09 then the interpreter reads the package and so on 10:31:20 and the code could be 2d txt like in gammaplex 10:31:22 -!- kipple has joined. 10:31:35 and it'd be a lot easier to handle all the textures and stuff if they were separate files 10:31:43 hmm but that would remove something I find so nice, the textures and code being together on an image 10:31:52 yes 10:31:59 I have another idea, make a sort of IDE that will put it all on the image 10:32:10 mmh, that's better 10:32:32 otherwise it can be rather difficult to do anything 10:32:42 apart from paint shop pro, no painting program is good enough to do it 10:32:50 and PSP doesnt work in linux :cries: 10:33:00 :\ 10:33:07 (only PSP shows the RGB color if you go with the mouse over the pixel) 10:33:16 heh 10:33:31 and that's important to know which command the pixel is 10:33:36 yes 10:33:56 I've been thinking about making a simple painting program that would do this, but I'm stuck in QT 10:36:52 I could make the painting program in OpenGL tho, using my OpenGL gui :) 10:36:52 but that would be weird, not? A IDE/painting program in OpenGL? 10:36:52 noo 10:36:52 have you got any suggestions for new gammaplex commands? 10:37:05 "frames per second"? 10:37:35 oh wait no 10:37:42 i was thinking about deltaplex 10:37:43 :) 10:37:52 let's see.. 10:38:33 perhaps something set RP to 0 10:40:13 -!- J|x has joined. 10:40:28 that can be done with 0] 10:41:29 oh 10:41:35 didn't notice that command :) 10:42:04 what's the point of E? 10:42:31 it's an infinite loop to make the program stop, a sort of fake way to end 10:42:46 when does the program stop, by the way? 10:42:58 when you reach E 10:43:00 or never 10:43:04 depends on how you view it 10:43:11 there's a close button and a menu in the interpreter to quit 10:43:19 ah 10:43:28 but no "terminate program" command? 10:43:34 no 10:43:50 ok. i was already wondering why i couldn't find one 10:44:10 when I look back at the spec, the { and } commands are really weird, and I should have let it store the working color and working coordinates in the registers (and should have called the registers the memory instead :)) 10:44:24 and I should have allowed memory of arbitrary size 10:46:43 epsilonplex? ;) 10:46:50 or epsiplex 10:47:25 epsiplex sounds nice :) 10:47:58 I'm going to try to improve the gammaplex interpreter later, and will remove the memory limit then (but not now yet) 10:48:09 I mean, backwards compatibility isn't lost by removing the limit :) 10:48:10 ok 10:49:21 by the way I really like the mandelbrot renderer code because it has a subroutine using gosub and return 10:49:38 is it written by you? 10:49:45 yeah :p 10:49:49 nice :) 10:49:57 ty :) 10:50:12 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:50:24 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 10:51:26 i'll write a maze game in gammaplex 10:51:52 i'll write something cool in gammaplex 10:52:00 cool :) 10:52:09 but first i'll complete the subskin wiki page 10:52:13 I'll write tetris or breakout when I have the time :) 10:52:28 ah, that'd be neat! 10:52:36 tetris! 10:52:45 tetris is in the suggestion list of gammaplex programs if I remember correctly :) 10:53:42 yeah 10:53:51 snake/worm game would be nice too 10:54:22 yeah 10:54:40 or something like Elite!!!! :) 10:54:51 but that would probably be too slow :) 10:55:17 dunno what that is 10:55:47 one of the first 3D space shooters, featuring wireframe ships, trading goods to earn money and buy better ships, pirates and so on :) 10:55:55 cool 10:56:33 i'll port the TI 92+?/89/v200 pheonix (platinum)? game 10:56:51 its written in m68k asm 10:59:04 looks like a neat game http://www.ticalc.org/archives/files/ss/48/4815.gif 11:00:03 hmm but i can't read m68k asm.. 11:00:50 hehe 11:00:58 :0 11:01:16 then you have to make a totally new one 11:01:17 but the game is the best game for ti calcs 11:01:19 but you can try to copy the gameplay 11:01:34 Aardwolf: yeah 11:02:23 but first i've to finish this stupid subskin wiki article 11:02:30 ok 11:03:13 haha my friends always ask me what i'm going to do today and i always tell them i'm going to write programs the whole day.. 11:03:46 hehe 11:03:56 I say something similar to my friends often too 11:04:01 I don't think they like it :( 11:05:13 i think they would be shocked if i say "i'm going somewhere to play football because the weather is nice" ;) 11:06:14 heh 11:06:34 in brainfuck, if you type input and you type something of multiple letters, will each next , command in brainfuck use these next letters? (I'm just trying to figure out how the C getchar() command works in fact ;)) 11:07:02 yes, i think 11:07:09 everything you write to STDIN is written to a buffer 11:07:19 its pushed to it 11:07:25 and getc shifts one char out 11:07:33 (queue not stack) 11:07:36 ah a FIFO buffer 11:20:39 yeah 11:33:46 by the way, is gammaplex file extension .txt? 11:33:56 and, if you pop an empty stack, it returns 0? 11:39:21 it doesn't have to be .txt 11:39:34 hmm let me check the code for that last question 11:40:10 nope, but i mean should i use .gpx on my site.. 11:40:50 you can if you want 11:40:59 ok :) 11:41:00 it's only a very little bit harder to open with a text editor :) 11:41:32 in windows explorer at least 11:42:18 I implemented the gammaplex stack in a sort of weird way, but it'll probably return 0 unless it's memory is full 11:42:34 I hadn't discovered std::vectors back then hence the dumb memory limits and weird stack :) 11:43:06 ok 11:47:56 done: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Subskin 11:51:59 yam.. 11:52:02 i like this 11:52:33 wow 11:52:36 one command? 11:52:40 and turing complete? 11:52:40 Aardwolf: yes 11:52:42 yes 11:52:55 but thats nothing special.. there were some OISC implementations before subskin 11:53:05 I see 11:53:08 but i don't know any that uses my instruction 11:53:19 this certainly is short ruby code for an interpreter :) 11:54:22 but didn't my professor Object Oriented Programming warn us that one letter variable names are bad? :D 11:54:26 i had the subskin idea (and name!) a long time ago but never implemented it.. yesterday i searched a language for writing a super short interpreter for... 11:54:39 Aardwolf: haha 11:55:17 i don't understand it fully however.. :\ 11:55:38 i use them often in ruby... but only in a scope that has a length of... 1 line... ["h4","37"...].map{|i|i.hex} for example.. 11:56:40 I use them often too, except in tasks for this professor heh 11:57:32 the only other name for i that would fit is iterator_variable... and thats too long because you need such kind of variables every 10th line 11:57:35 aardwolf: the second rgb is 0 0 0 in the beginning in the gammaplex..? 11:58:02 I'll look it up in the source 11:58:28 You know what's sort of stupid, the gammaplex specification is based on the interpreter sometimes instead of the opposite 11:58:47 :) 11:58:57 subskin is spec first... 12:00:02 the Hello, world! subskin example is self modifying... 12:00:40 cool :) 12:01:12 every a-bit-more-complex subskin program has to use self modification 12:01:48 yeah the second color is initially 0 0 0 appearantly 12:02:03 that's cool 12:02:21 that must make it pretty hard to program in :) 12:03:49 with a text editor it is 12:04:04 with a assembler like thing it's easier 12:04:55 hehe this is always fun, first write the complete interpreter in C++, when done, compile it for the first time and see how many errors there are 12:05:02 cool only 3! 12:05:18 subskin interpreter? 12:05:22 (in c++?) 12:05:37 no, Mycelium interpreter 12:05:46 mmh what's that? 12:05:56 a new language :) 12:06:00 cool 12:06:06 image based, and about as complex as befunge 12:06:22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycelium 12:06:24 mycelium has something to do with mushrooms too btw :) 12:06:38 :9 12:06:44 all befunge clones should have a mushroom like name ;) 12:07:27 now I gotta make some mycelium programs to see if the interpreter works correctly 12:07:45 ok 12:08:15 kolourpaint to the rescue 12:25:25 -!- grim_bed has changed nick to grim_. 12:26:18 wb grim_ 12:26:33 lo all 12:29:46 'ello 13:13:26 aardwolf, does the 'i' command print the number to locations in x and y? 13:18:38 yes 13:18:43 ok 13:19:27 it's good that you ask those questions, it'll allow me to improve the spec some time 13:21:03 yeah 13:46:42 hi 13:47:04 jix, I have access to the repository 13:47:23 When typing something in console and pressing enter, is this enter character 10 or 13? 13:48:07 10 when getchar() receives it, but that happens in Unix only 13:48:30 I receive it with getchar(). How to make it platform independent? 13:48:34 in Windows getchar() receives a 13 then a 10 13:48:44 and in mac a 13? 13:49:01 I think so, maybe jix can give a definitive answer 13:49:34 I wonder if Lost Kingdom checks for both 10's and 13's 13:50:00 {^Raven^}: does it? 13:50:10 I think that the language specifications free you of those problems 13:51:42 so even in Windows the language gets always 10 after a carriage return 13:51:48 I wonder if they did it on purpose, each choosing a different way to represent enter (mac, win and unix) 13:51:59 no idea 13:52:07 Now all that's missing is an OS that does 10 first and then 13 :rolleyes: 13:52:08 I suppose there are historic reasons 13:52:36 is the reason that ascii was not well defined? I mean maybe the carriage return and newline thing was too confusing? 13:54:00 yeah, that's probably the reason 14:02:07 in some old typewriters a carriage return was to move the carriage horizontally and then you needed to press line feed, which rotated the drum 14:02:47 there's not an end-of-line character well-defined in ASCII 14:03:14 -!- Keymaker has quit ("I've seen this déjà vu before.."). 14:03:37 the ZX Spectrum (a Z80-based micro) took CR as end-of-line too 14:04:26 it's CP/M the one which took the CR/LF combination, later inherited by DOS 14:08:03 mac os 9 (oooold) uses 13 as return 14:08:11 mac os x uses 10 14:08:52 ah okay 14:09:08 was the change painful? 14:09:45 which is like asking, would it be painful if Windows switched to 10 too? 14:10:33 pgimeno: mac os x is another system .. not the next version of mac os 9 14:10:42 so you can't compare it with windows 14:10:45 oh ok 14:11:05 mac os x has some compatibility libs and binary loaders to allow the user to run some old apps 14:12:10 but mac os 9 was a really old kernel.. there was no command line no STDIN no STDOUT no posix at all cooperative multi tasking resource forks... mac os x is based on NextStep and BSD 14:13:47 mac os x uses the Mach kernel (mach started as a fork of the bsd kernel but got rewritten) used by Next. Most cli programs and parts of c libs are from BSD afaik and the whole Objc thing + Cocoa is just a newer version of NextStep 14:14:26 all cocoa classes start with NS for NextStep (NSWindows NSArray NSString NSDictionary....) 14:14:38 what happened to NeXT? 14:15:11 apple buyed next 14:15:23 some people say it was the other way around 14:15:44 NeXT activists, I expect 14:16:44 I tried windows longhorn beta, and was wondering what was actually changed except a nerf in the file searching system 14:16:47 because steve jobs (one of the apple founders and ceo at some time and today) got fired by apple and founded Next.. Next had no money and apple buyed it... but steave jobs is now apple ceo and apples software is based on next... 14:16:54 nice job the Subskin page, btw 14:17:06 so it was like NeXT buying apple 14:17:20 pgimeno: ah about the file archive 14:17:32 i'd like to submit my bfx.rb brainfuck interpreter 14:17:55 no problem 14:18:09 and i'd like to have write access too because i often write interpreters for languages 14:18:19 except I'm having lunch right now 14:18:37 do you know how to use svn? 14:21:23 i used it once to download source code.. seems to be pretty ease (not like cvs) 14:21:23 it's very CVSish, just properly done 14:21:23 ask graue for access then 14:21:23 i know it works like cvs.. but cvs is not as easy as svn because of cryptic commands and and and... 14:21:23 if i see svn commands i can guess what they do 14:21:23 if i see cvs commands i just hope they don't act like rm -rf / 14:21:23 anyway the cvs/svn up / cvs/svn commit cycle is similar in both 14:21:52 i want to learn how to use svn anyway 14:22:26 it's easy enough for you, I guess 14:23:36 meaning, I don't expect you having the trouble many people have with it 14:25:18 one thing i don't like about svn is that under osx it detects the UI language instead of don't finding a local and using english as default 14:25:24 i want gui in german 14:25:26 but cli in english 14:27:51 graue was active on the wiki yesterday but wasn't here yesterday... 14:28:31 what are your locale settings? I use English CLI 14:28:41 i have no locale settings 14:28:54 it isn't set on mac os x by default 14:29:04 try LANG=en svn 14:29:10 it works 14:29:27 but svn is the first cli program that uses the gui lang if it doesn't find a locale 14:29:27 then you can write a wrapprt 14:29:41 strange 14:30:30 edited my environment.plist 14:35:13 I'm ready, do you want me to upload the file? 14:47:02 I've taken the code from the wiki (removing the LF) and I'm ready to commit 14:47:11 jix? 14:49:31 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 14:50:18 added cat.subskin and hello.subskin, ready to commit too 15:00:45 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: Lost Kingdom checks for and accepts both CR and LF for line endings 15:03:05 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: If the console returns CRLF or LFCR as a line ending the second byte is treated as a null command 15:11:47 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: RISC OS return 10 for Enter 15:18:50 ok 16:18:34 -!- nooga has joined. 16:18:42 hello :D 16:35:16 hi 16:43:10 wassup? 17:03:13 I'm busy testing and debugging the Mycelium interpreter 17:05:55 mycelium? 17:08:01 a fungeoid 17:08:23 an image based fungeoid :) 17:08:41 It's doing weird though, there are no floats and no doubles in my interpreter, yet I get a "Floating point exception" 17:09:22 oooh 0/0 17:17:39 -!- lindi- has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:19:19 ah yay 17:19:29 anyone from London here? 17:27:37 * {^Raven^} is in Sheffield - not *that* far away 17:28:11 pgimeno: bfx.rb isn't on the wiki 17:28:15 but thanks for adding subskin 17:28:27 i just saw the Battersea Power Station on Pink Floyd's cover 17:28:50 pgimeno: can i dcc bfx.rb to you? 17:28:54 this building looks just awesome 17:32:34 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9e/Battersea_Powerstation_-_Across_Thames_-_London_-_020504.jpg/800px-Battersea_Powerstation_-_Across_Thames_-_London_-_020504.jpg 17:35:12 it does? :D 17:36:10 it does 17:41:17 maximally surrealistic eh? 17:41:30 i'd love to go there and make some photos 17:41:40 heh, g2g, bye all 17:41:43 -!- nooga has quit. 17:43:09 * grim_ is in Edinburgh 17:45:52 howdy! 17:48:23 i've written skasm (SubsKin ASseMbler).. it's a big ruby hack but it works 17:48:35 yay! 18:23:09 jix: is subskin.rb an appropriate name? 18:24:30 re bfx.rb: dcc is ok, what is it supposed to be? 18:26:01 bfx.rb is the shortest ruby brainfuck interpreter 18:26:08 (dcc is ok as long as I'm not afk, of course) 18:26:09 and yes subskin.rb is the name i use 18:26:35 so brainfuck/impl looks like a sensible place, right? 18:26:39 yes 18:28:04 -!- Aardwolf has quit ("Ik zen der is mee weg"). 18:34:17 commited both - now you'll have to wait for the archive copy to be updated or look at the repository directly 18:38:10 the direct link to the repository is http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/svn/esofiles/ but graue discourages using it 19:16:54 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:17:08 -!- kipple has joined. 20:20:21 my old hello world implementation was stupid... 20:22:42 graue was on the wiki today 20:22:47 why isn't he here? 20:23:56 he fixed my Subskin article 20:24:23 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 20:24:56 hrhr it's good to have someone fixing the spelling/grammar of the wiki articles 20:32:38 here is a trace of the new hello world program: http://www.harderweb.de/jix/hello-world-trace.html 20:34:39 ... 20:37:26 wow, that really is a trace... 20:37:34 :o 20:38:32 it's useful for debugging 20:38:40 but i wrote all programs without it 20:38:52 but for my next program i need a trace 20:39:10 and an assembler 20:51:03 i have a routine for printing a number in reverse 21:11:09 Nice trace Jix 21:11:35 I don't really understand it, but it looks nice 21:11:57 i'm working at 99 bottles of beer 21:12:04 good luck! 21:37:32 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:38:07 <{^Raven^}> jix: you know that ruby, bf to c compiler you made 21:38:14 yes 21:38:23 i should know it.. i made it 21:38:25 <{^Raven^}> did you ever manage to compile lostkingdom.c 21:38:30 no 21:38:40 <{^Raven^}> me either 21:38:41 i have no other c compiler than gcc on my machine 21:38:43 and gcc fails 21:38:48 because the stack is too small 21:39:06 and i removed all non-hw stack limits and set the hw stack to the highest possible value 21:39:12 <{^Raven^}> after two hours of compiling the machine terminally crashes 21:39:24 <{^Raven^}> :) 21:39:34 <{^Raven^}> it's fun 21:39:37 i get a "Stack size to small" error after 2 mins 21:40:22 if you have access to a linux machine http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/tcc/ may work for you 21:40:26 <{^Raven^}> mine takes 2 hours to mention the missing linefeed at the end of the file and soon after the machine explodes 21:40:39 haha 21:41:21 <{^Raven^}> only the TCP/IP stack survives and I can't even shh in to kill gcc! 21:41:32 <{^Raven^}> *ssh 21:41:57 <{^Raven^}> i'm sure it works though, everything else has 21:44:36 port LK to subskin 21:44:41 *g* 21:45:04 without my assembler or tracer or interactive debugger 21:45:56 i'm done with the "N bottle[s] of beer" routine! 22:00:50 it works!!! 22:01:17 hmm it was a bad idea to trace all verses of 99 bottles of beer 22:02:06 295 words 800 characters 22:02:50 it's 2 lines shorter than the output! 22:08:21 * {^Raven^} 's game is finished and uploaded to the competitions site :D 22:08:32 cool 22:09:21 <{^Raven^}> The game is called 23:15 and the page is here: http://us.geocities.com/dunric/advcomp.html 22:10:13 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: (named after the first version of brainloller that compiled) 22:11:24 99bob in subskin WORKS! 22:11:34 <{^Raven^}> cool! 22:13:11 brb 22:18:10 -!- calamari has joined. 22:28:27 re 22:31:12 hi jix 22:31:18 moin calamari 22:31:27 i wrote 99bob in subskin 22:31:33 (you know subskin?) 22:31:45 jix: your project yesterday got me thinking about a minimal tc implementation 22:31:50 no 22:32:00 subskin is my OISC implementation 22:32:08 the result of my project from yesterday 22:32:19 ahh there's a bug in 99bob 22:32:20 oh, cool 22:32:30 didn't know you finished it 22:32:41 how many bytes did it end up as? 22:33:11 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Subskin 22:33:15 148 22:34:05 I'm curious what the smallest tc interpreter I can make for ms-dos x86 22:34:28 maybe oisc is the way to go, but maybe not 22:34:49 imo subskin is the best oisc instruction 22:35:43 I always remember subtract and branch if borrow 22:35:55 i have no branch in the instruction 22:36:02 but a memory mapped IP 22:36:15 you can do more calculations without stupid branching 22:36:57 if you don't know if the result is negative or not you just put a nop-like instruction after it 22:37:10 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:37:22 -!- jix has joined. 22:37:28 wb :) 22:37:37 whoops 22:37:49 how did you do io? 22:38:00 {^Raven^}: cool, good luck with the competition 22:38:07 calamari: memory mapped 22:38:10 see the wiki page 22:39:52 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: thanks 22:40:24 <{^Raven^}> calamari: finally finished my game! it's on the competition site now 22:40:42 raven: cool 22:44:53 Hmmm 22:45:51 for some reason that reminds me of monsters inc.. 23-19!! :) 22:46:00 2315.exe in Wine sais: invalid channel at line 10, and every command I try is either Syntax Error or a Mistake 22:46:11 or is it part of the puzzle :) 22:49:09 i can't eat myself! 22:49:12 Aardwolf: I get the same 22:49:41 under my pc emulator it works 22:50:27 Wine must not be that good, I wonder if Dosbox could run it? 22:50:42 not if its a windows exe 22:50:46 (actually wine has been having poor results on almost any program I tried :s) 22:50:51 trying anyways :) 22:51:28 yeah, it's a windows proggy 22:51:35 you could try a risc-os emulator 22:51:37 * calamari loads up qemu 22:51:49 This program can not be run in DOS mode 22:51:59 http://www.redsquirrel.fsnet.co.uk/ 22:52:58 hmm weird 22:53:10 it's working in wine now 22:53:31 I ran it from the command line rather than from the gui 22:54:06 let's try 22:54:12 ah maybe it didn't find the data file 22:54:29 yes it works, thanks :) 22:54:41 i'm in this silly tube and can't do anything... :( 22:55:03 It sais I'm very hungry, but if I type eat it sais I'm not that hungry :) 22:55:09 jix: did you eat? 22:55:16 by the way is the font only this screwed up in my wine? 22:55:28 calamari: ouch i typed eat tueb 22:55:31 "eat from feeding tube" :) 22:55:57 hmm weird.. wine lost focus and now I can't type.. need to restart 22:56:11 lol I have the choice between hungry or tired 22:56:25 Aardwolf: no... 22:56:47 the font is only barely readable in my wine, default settings afaik 22:56:48 The chamber door opens. 22:57:25 ouch wine lost focus on me too, after typing "rest", so don't type it 22:57:45 sounds like whatever emulator he used wasn't up to the challenge :) 22:58:40 darn, can't go n, e, s, w, u, d 22:58:51 the door is open but i cant go through it 22:59:12 whoohoo! got the door open, need to save :) 22:59:31 lol i type: b and it says: violence is not the answer 22:59:42 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: It's an issue with wine, the CSD is not set correctly and the program cannot find the data file 23:00:02 yeah it's solved if you open it from console :) 23:00:03 oops, doesn't look like it can save under wine 23:00:12 wine isn't really too great :( 23:00:55 * {^Raven^} tests the game on wine 23:01:49 {^Raven^}: i opened the door but i can't walk through it 23:02:06 i don't know the command 23:02:12 jix: east 23:02:22 oh 23:02:30 it really understands a lot of commands :) 23:02:33 try break glass :) 23:03:07 try break * 23:03:34 <{^Raven^}> ok... 23:03:36 aha, look = room description, examine = look at something in particular 23:03:43 hmm what was again this secret 6 letter word of Zork? 23:03:57 xyzzy? 23:04:01 yeah that one 23:04:01 no 23:04:04 thats 5 23:04:06 might be helpful.. was trying "look at" 23:04:15 it was something like that 23:04:47 it was xyzzy 23:04:56 <{^Raven^}> When the game dies with a invalid channel error, type: *cd z:\home\ 23:05:06 <{^Raven^}> And then type RUN 23:06:05 nothing happens if i type xyzzy BUT it understands the command 23:06:25 access denied! 23:06:31 <{^Raven^}> (save and load work here) 23:07:00 hmm maybe I can steal a card off that dead guy 23:07:05 yeah it recognises it :D 23:07:08 "nothing happens" 23:07:16 i get tons of Mistake msgs now 23:07:20 I think we found a clue to one of the secrets :) 23:07:51 i answered with >n to Play again 23:07:57 instead of just 23:07:59 n 23:08:18 <{^Raven^}> jix, hte game has exit, type RUN to begin again 23:08:29 argh, froze again 23:08:33 {^Raven^}: i'm not using wine 23:08:43 {^Raven^}: i'm using a complete pc emulator with win xp 23:08:54 because wine needs a x86 cpu 23:09:02 what emulator is that? 23:09:09 virtual pc (comercial) 23:09:11 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 23:09:14 <{^Raven^}> if you end up exiting the game without closing the window type RUN to begin again 23:09:16 hi wildhalcyon 23:09:25 hey calamari 23:10:05 raven: cool game, I'll have to play it again when I have more time and from qemu where it should be more reliable :) 23:10:19 hows everyones esolangs? 23:10:38 langing in there 23:10:48 debugging Mycelium is very annoying, even tho the syntax is easy, writing code in a painting program is hellish :p 23:10:58 wildhalcyon: i wrote 99bob in subskin! 23:11:24 awesome jix! 23:11:34 its 2 lines shorter than the output 23:12:07 ouch 23:12:09 output: 297 lines 11756 bytes, program: 296 lines 786 lines 23:12:20 there are many 1 char lines 23:12:28 most lines are 2 chars 23:12:30 oh, ok 23:12:33 and some are 3 chars 23:13:11 and i wrote an improved hello world version 23:13:27 and a trace program: http://www.harderweb.de/jix/hello-world-trace.html (sample output) 23:13:55 and an assembler (used in 99bob.. cat and hw are written 100% by hand) 23:14:23 WhaTry writing something like LK 23:14:26 :-D 23:14:32 -Wha 23:15:02 hrhr 23:16:12 Im trying to wrestle with the topology issues in my lang before I write the spec & interpreter; then I'll write a roguelike 23:17:43 see, I encourage everyone to write games in there languages 23:19:06 hmm but what game 23:19:47 in a language without i/o, how is the result of the computation expressed? 23:20:12 is it just the ending state? 23:23:21 jix: btw, how does skip() work? is it possible to form an endless loop with it? 23:28:20 a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i .. if subskin a,b,c skips the next instruction is g,h,i if it doesn't skip the next instruction is d,e,f 23:28:48 is it possible to get back to a,b,c? 23:28:59 of course.. IP is memory mapped 23:29:11 aha 23:29:14 you can branch everywhere by setting the IP to any adress 23:30:59 I wonder if a lang could be tc if it was allowed to contain only a single loop 23:31:36 i'm trying to trace the whole execution of 99bob 23:32:13 im at 92 and the trace is > 10mb 23:33:33 it's going to be > 100mb 23:33:47 80 bottles left 32mv 23:33:49 mb 23:34:12 hmm, perhaps I can answer this by construction with a dfa.. if a dfa with only one loop is still a dfa, I'd bet all is ok 23:35:11 need to define loop more precisely tho 23:35:53 there may be only one place where the IP is allowed to move in reverse direction 23:36:33 jix: it'd be a state with more than one transition to it 23:37:23 so states would only be allowed to have a single transition to them, except the start state which is allowed two 23:37:34 wrong 23:37:54 ? 23:37:55 code_a;if(bla){code_b};code_c 23:37:59 no loop right? 23:38:24 there is a code_a => code_c transition and a code_b => code_c transition 23:38:59 a loop less code is a code where there is no way to enter a state after it was entered once 23:39:26 104mb 38bottles left 23:40:32 jix: good point 23:42:09 most browser have problems with 160mb of html? 23:43:03 ahh, drawing out a transition table helps 23:43:15 ;-) 23:43:29 each transition that doesn't result in a loop is a transition to a state that has not yet been seen 23:44:08 no... it's the same thing you said before... 23:44:19 jix: nope, slightly different 23:44:56 jix: the exit state of the if and else parts go to the same state but it has not yet been seen 23:45:12 jix: however, the start state has been seen 23:45:21 ah ok 23:45:28 but i think my definition is simpler 23:45:28 so transitioning to it is a loop 23:45:46 jix: neither definition is quite there yet.. 23:46:07 i define a loop as a code that gets executed multiple times 23:46:22 and my definition of a loop less code makes that impossible 23:46:23 there is no such thing as "code" in a dfa tho :) 23:46:32 it's all states and transitions 23:46:37 replace code by state+transition 23:53:23 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:54:16 -!- jix has joined. 2005-09-11: 00:06:12 Is it possible the wiki is down? 00:07:09 yes 00:07:17 how comes? 00:07:22 no idea 00:11:25 too bad, oh well here's mycelium: http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m0216922/mycelium/ 00:13:02 nice sources 00:13:52 the spec is at the bottom of main.cpp 00:14:16 I like decimal.png in particular, but I can't read what it says on my monitor 00:14:23 dec to ??? 00:14:26 dec to int 00:14:36 aha 00:14:37 it lets you type anything with getchar, and it'll convert it to an integer 00:14:55 subtracting ascii value 48, ignoring non-number chars, doing the multiplications with 10 and so on 00:15:02 sure 00:15:43 it's a subroutine that can be used in other mycelium programs 00:15:56 because you can go to it with gosub, and the goto's and gosubs in the subroutine itself are all relative 00:22:50 * {^Raven^} get's a sniper rifle ready for the next person who advocates spaghetti coding 00:24:04 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:26:53 in asm you have to use gotos/jumps/brnaches 00:28:57 -!- kipple has joined. 00:29:27 bbl phone call 00:29:28 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 00:31:30 i'm using 18 gotos in 99bob 00:34:48 gotos are great 00:35:22 though not as great as gosub return 00:35:29 -!- calamari has joined. 00:37:23 * wildhalcyon advocates spaghetti coding 00:37:46 * wildhalcyon advocates non-deterministic spaghetti coding 00:37:56 * Aardwolf misses the wiki 00:49:12 me too 00:50:21 gn8 00:50:21 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 01:07:48 * {^Raven^} hasn't needed a goto or gosub for over a decade 01:10:06 programming in mycelium is hard without using them 01:12:34 and the alternative (2D loops) is real spaghetti :D 01:15:54 gn8 01:15:56 -!- Aardwolf has quit ("Ik zen der is mee weg"). 01:45:09 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:58:05 wiki seems to be back 01:58:54 I've gotten closer to being able to mirror the wiki.. had to strip some stuff out of the sql dump, but it imported.. didn't work to change my wiki tho. 01:59:13 seems to be a very tricky thing to mirror a dump 04:18:58 Anyone know where the java BF interpreter is? 04:38:10 nm, found it 04:51:23 -!- calamari has quit (Connection timed out). 05:00:36 -!- calamari has joined. 05:01:21 re's 05:01:30 wildhalcyon: still looking for a java bf interp? 05:15:24 nope, found the lil' bugger 05:15:30 hard to find, and Im not sure that Im crazy about it 05:15:48 Im tired, so my brain isn't working properly 05:16:07 I want to write an exponentiation function that works appropriately (meaning that 0 still outputs 1) 05:16:25 in brainfuck? 05:16:28 yeah 05:17:16 I suppose I could do it with BFBasic, but that's no fun 05:17:29 seems fairly easy to do 05:17:36 start with 1 and keep multiplying 05:17:41 It should be, but again... tired, brain not working right 05:26:15 going to bed now 05:26:16 g'night 05:26:57 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("Whoops, There I go"). 06:17:50 !!! 06:17:59 got the wiki dump imported and working 06:23:18 Ye haw? 06:26:17 http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/mediawiki/ 06:26:47 I'm setting up http://esowiki.kidsquid.com/ 06:39:16 actually esolang.kidsquid.com is better 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:01 well, it should be ready.. we'll see if it stays up to date :) 08:02:28 I diabled editing and changed the logo so it shouldn't be confused for the main site 08:43:27 blah, mistyped the forwarding url, so it'll take a little longer for http://esolang.kidsquid.com/ to work 09:20:09 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:27:49 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 09:42:20 -!- GregorR has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 09:46:21 -!- GregorR has joined. 09:47:58 -!- jix has joined. 09:48:12 moin 09:52:38 the license on the esolang wiki mirror is wrong 10:31:02 muahahaha a subskin quine 10:32:27 no kidding, well, if there's only 1 command, the output of such quine would look pretty simple, am i rite? 10:35:10 Is it allowed to make a joke language that I put on the wiki, without any external resources? 10:42:22 -!- J|x has joined. 10:42:44 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 10:42:46 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 11:02:38 How do you like this joke language: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Unary 11:04:17 hehe 11:05:46 i submitted my 99bob to 99-bottles-of-beer.net 11:06:16 cool :) 11:06:37 not reviewed yet 11:07:04 i couldn't decide if i choose the category Esoteric Language or Assembler language 11:14:47 is there hardware that runs your language? 12:00:31 <{^Raven^}> (a minor update of the win version of my game is on the comp page) 12:01:09 what's updated? something to make it run better in wine? 12:01:12 <{^Raven^}> (if anyone fancies sending in a review and voting that would be cool) 12:01:14 or the gameplay? 12:01:33 {^Raven^}: I'm sorry I'd like to but I'm leaving on a vacation tomorrow so I won't have the time 12:01:37 <{^Raven^}> no, just disables escape key and closes window on normal game termination 12:01:52 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: have a nice holiday 12:01:55 thanks 12:02:00 (going to Spain) 12:11:11 -!- Keymaker has joined. 12:11:24 'ello 12:11:44 jix: can't wait to see subskin entry at 99bob.net 12:11:51 seems they've made some differences there as well 12:11:59 trigger is categorized in 'real language' x) 12:16:40 -!- kipple has joined. 12:16:44 hi 12:23:38 hello 12:23:41 hello 12:24:14 kipple: i'm sorry i've been very busy, so haven't had time to plan the language 12:24:14 Keymaker: do you know hunt the wumpus in brainfuck? 12:24:18 nope 12:24:25 i don't know the game 12:24:26 s/know/see/ 12:24:27 keymaker: me too 12:24:28 hmm 12:24:42 kipple: but when having more spare time, let's continue :) 12:24:50 can't right now. 12:25:00 bbl 12:25:03 :) 12:25:04 yes. but i mean later 12:25:11 like about a month later etc 12:50:45 -!- jix has left (?). 12:57:16 i did a small update on my website 12:57:27 added gammaplex and esowiki category 12:57:38 did some small updated and removed firefox button 12:57:43 i don't like that browser anymore 12:57:49 i use only opera for now on 13:14:00 -!- frikiman has joined. 13:15:15 -!- frikiman has left (?). 13:25:25 hmm bye. 13:25:27 -!- Keymaker has quit ("I've seen this déjà vu before.."). 13:49:21 -!- sp3tt has joined. 17:48:18 -!- clog has joined. 17:48:18 -!- clog has joined. 17:48:30 ah 17:48:33 -!- sp3tt_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:48:42 hmm.. 17:49:15 poor speccing 17:49:35 yes, a bit 17:49:38 should it be (IP+1) + 1 17:50:25 i'm confused about this.. i thought program and memory use the same array 17:51:06 apparently so 17:51:27 but sometimes the spec tells about ip and sometimes about pp 17:51:33 i mean ip and mp 17:51:41 instruction pointer and memory pointer 17:51:44 yup 17:51:58 well, whatever.. :) FWD and BAK are useless 17:58:40 you will not like Mneme then 17:59:24 well, depends 17:59:46 i don't mind that kind of jumps but since one don't need to use them in this language i won't 18:04:37 is there any way one could make the python program write the output to some file? 18:04:43 (i mean without changing the program source) 18:07:17 well, must go.. 18:07:31 btw, i invented nice l33t tweak; run this program: 18:07:32 0u7pU7s 5tR1nG "j00 4r3 teh 5ux0r". 18:07:46 hehe 18:07:48 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 18:07:49 heh 18:17:40 -!- jix has joined. 19:24:19 clog has left freenode (Success) = Haha, I'm free from your tyrrany! 20:25:23 i'm done with my quine.. have to do some optimizations now 20:50:54 ok i'm really done now (it works) 20:51:19 531bytes 20:51:24 180lines 20:52:47 I read "1801 lines" and wondered how was it possible that there are less bytes than lines 20:54:09 179 lines 20:54:28 530 chars 20:58:26 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:59:33 -!- kipple has joined. 21:14:00 http://www.harderweb.de/jix/quine2.subskin (tmp url) 21:14:16 all \n's are significant (the last too) 21:16:07 tomorrow i'm going to shorten it 21:16:14 but i have to sleep now 21:16:16 gn8 21:16:18 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:26:22 -!- sp3tt___ has joined. 22:26:23 -!- sp3tt__ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:26:23 -!- sp3tt___ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:26:44 -!- sp3tt___ has joined. 22:27:31 -!- sp3tt___ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 2005-09-12: 00:01:58 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 00:18:34 I'm off on a vacation, cya later 00:18:42 -!- Aardwolf has quit ("Ik zen der is mee weg"). 00:44:57 -!- CXI has quit (Connection timed out). 01:50:46 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server"). 01:51:13 -!- cmeme has joined. 02:52:33 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:10:12 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("Whoops, There I go"). 04:05:30 -!- pgimeno has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:07:25 -!- pgimeno has joined. 06:51:11 -!- int-e has joined. 07:35:21 -!- graue has joined. 07:45:18 -!- int-e has left (?). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:26:40 -!- graue has left (?). 12:19:11 -!- kipple has joined. 13:10:59 -!- kipple has quit ("See you later"). 13:21:44 -!- kipple has joined. 13:42:54 -!- nooga has joined. 13:43:03 -!- nooga has left (?). 14:04:44 -!- tokigun has quit ("Changing server"). 14:07:22 -!- tokigun has joined. 14:50:14 -!- nooga has joined. 14:50:18 -!- nooga has left (?). 15:49:05 -!- {^Raven^} has quit ("Leaving"). 16:01:01 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 16:39:20 -!- lament_ has joined. 16:43:58 -!- jix has joined. 16:44:14 moin 16:44:38 moin 16:50:44 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:12:23 -!- J|x has joined. 17:12:45 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 17:12:49 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 18:46:17 -!- sp3tt has joined. 19:17:14 -!- graue has joined. 19:26:02 -!- calamari has joined. 19:27:50 hey jix, can I add quine2.subskin to The Esoteric Files Archive? 19:53:19 graue: do you know how to disallow new users on the wiki? 19:53:54 graue: no reason for people to try to create user accounts on the mirror, since I disabled editing :) 19:57:37 nm, found it :) 20:05:03 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:20:13 heh, your mirror still claims to be under the FDL 20:22:22 graue: yeah, not sure how to change that 20:22:46 it's in LocalSettings.php somewhere 20:22:51 graue: the main wiki was down when I was setting up the mirror a lot time ago, so I had to guess at the license 20:24:21 ahh, I see it 20:25:11 could you please paste the info you have? it's at the very end of the file 20:29:30 $wgRightsUrl = "http://creativecommons.org/licenses/publicdomain/"; 20:29:30 $wgRightsText = "Public Domain" 20:29:30 $wgRightsIcon = "${wgStylePath}/common/images/norights.png"; 20:29:46 you'll have to copy norights.png (I got it from creative commons' website) 20:31:15 -!- sp3tt has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:32:05 fixed :) 20:32:16 thanks 20:33:50 here's my localsettings.php with some stuff expunged that looked like it needed to be expunged for security reasons: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/LocalSettings.txt 20:34:07 you might also need to copy the namespaces stuff near the end to get the EsoShell namespace to work 20:34:41 graue: is your LocalSettings.php world readable? had to do that to mine, otherwise pages didn't work 20:36:13 yeah, I guess it is 20:36:27 but if you go to it in a browser it just says "MEDIAWIKI not defined, this is not a valid entry point" 20:55:22 graue: yeah but name the file quine1.subskin 20:55:44 it's called quine2 due to my quine-bootstrapping cycle 20:59:30 okay then 21:02:10 lol? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Searching 21:17:03 -!- graue has quit ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/"). 21:33:15 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:54:32 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 22:54:58 <{^Raven^}> hi to all the peeps 22:56:22 hi raven 23:11:01 <{^Raven^}> it would have been nice to see your game in the comp, only three days to go before closing and eight to find out the winner :) 23:11:32 * {^Raven^} thinks that this is not strictly esoteric related unless you've seen the source! 23:33:05 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 23:39:38 -!- calamari has quit (Connection timed out). 23:44:03 -!- calamari has joined. 2005-09-13: 01:27:36 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:29:33 -!- kipple has joined. 01:38:50 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:03:02 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:20:57 -!- puzzlet has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:22:13 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:26:54 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 02:44:55 -!- calamari has joined. 02:48:31 -!- lament_ has quit ("Lost terminal"). 02:52:04 -!- graue has joined. 03:00:57 Do you think a stack-less funge varient would convince funge programmers to use programming space storage more? 03:02:16 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:34:51 -!- lament has joined. 04:13:30 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:17:12 -!- lament_ has joined. 04:18:21 -!- lament has quit ("Get MacIrssi - http://www.g1m0.se/macirssi/"). 04:18:39 -!- lament_ has changed nick to lament. 04:29:35 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 05:22:43 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("Whoops, There I go"). 05:26:27 -!- graue has left (?). 07:05:34 -!- calamari_ has joined. 07:06:34 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:02:34 -!- lament has quit ("Lost terminal"). 10:27:31 -!- kipple has joined. 11:07:19 -!- calamari has joined. 11:07:23 -!- calamari_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:07:46 -!- calamari has quit (Client Quit). 12:09:55 -!- kipple_ has joined. 12:28:20 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:59:10 -!- kipple has joined. 13:59:10 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:24:26 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 14:26:10 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:26:26 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Client Quit). 14:35:59 -!- jix has joined. 14:38:43 moin 14:55:30 http://oldpeculiar.org/~grim/Mneme/ 14:55:39 Mneme first draft and interpreter 14:56:26 -!- cmeme has joined. 15:34:22 -!- J|x has joined. 15:44:33 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:16:05 -!- sp3tt has joined. 16:16:47 -!- DevGet has joined. 16:17:25 -!- DevGet has left (?). 16:21:03 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 16:48:06 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 17:04:53 -!- J|x has joined. 17:13:52 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:43:59 -!- J|x has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:49:15 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 18:34:48 -!- graue has joined. 18:38:08 -!- jix has joined. 18:45:51 i'm going to implement subski/128 in hardware 18:46:38 +n 19:01:17 good luck 19:02:04 thanks 19:55:02 -!- int-e has joined. 20:13:25 -!- sp3tt has quit (Client Quit). 20:25:50 -!- lindi- has joined. 20:27:16 -!- graue has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:19:44 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 21:35:00 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:51:19 -!- int-e has left (?). 22:34:28 -!- lindi- has quit (Remote closed the connection). 2005-09-14: 02:12:18 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:56:09 -!- twobitsprite has joined. 02:56:30 what is a good embedable BF interpreter? :) 03:10:09 twobitsprite: the one you write yourself 03:14:24 Embeddable? 03:14:39 How so? 03:22:15 Im not familiar with any standards in place for BF microprocessors 03:22:37 I have heard of a BF cgi script.. but that could have been all in my head. 03:24:43 cpressey: hehe, funny you should say that, as I am in the process of doing so :) 03:52:33 <{^Raven^}> wildhalcyon: there are a few CGI scripts written in BF on my website 03:55:05 see! It wasn't all in my head! 03:55:16 Good old head, I knew you didn't fail me 04:27:23 <{^Raven^}> i'll get around to finishing the how-to artickes one day 04:45:08 -!- calamari has joined. 04:45:12 hi 04:55:42 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("Whoops, There I go"). 05:13:49 -!- calamari has left (?). 05:23:48 -!- calamari has joined. 05:23:58 hi 05:26:39 Hullo 05:27:19 how's it going? 06:15:50 brb 06:25:21 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:34:28 -!- calamari has joined. 07:39:43 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 13:47:07 -!- kipple has joined. 13:50:21 -!- jix has joined. 13:56:00 it's online! http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-subskin-868.html 13:56:32 :) 14:25:18 -!- J|x has joined. 14:37:34 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:40:10 -!- Jix_ has joined. 14:40:34 -!- J|x has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:40:44 -!- Jix_ has changed nick to jix. 15:09:14 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:10:04 -!- J|x has joined. 15:17:32 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:23:02 -!- J|x has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:23:36 -!- jix has joined. 15:54:42 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 15:55:33 -!- J|x has joined. 16:02:46 -!- kubient has joined. 16:11:38 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:39:17 -!- lindi- has joined. 17:29:38 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 18:05:54 -!- J|x has joined. 18:14:28 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:31:59 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 20:30:45 -!- P_Lenz has joined. 20:31:09 Hi 20:37:26 Guess no one's home 20:37:39 * P_Lenz settles in for a while 20:38:34 * puzzlet coughs 20:39:41 aloha 20:39:48 hi 20:40:02 it's past midnight in Korea 20:40:12 It's 3:30 in NYC 20:41:06 Just figured I'd say hi since I'm working on an Esolang right now 20:41:14 Hope to release soon 20:46:57 P_Lenz: cool, tell us more about it 20:47:04 Well 20:47:10 I have three goal 20:47:26 1 That it use Counting principle mathmatics 20:47:45 2 That there should be difference between code and data 20:48:07 3 That there should be no possible way to cause an error 20:49:00 So rather then entering 3 you'd have to enter ... (where . is an arbitrary character) 20:49:01 3. is easy.. just call it "undefined behavior" instead of error ;) 20:49:10 heh 20:49:56 No I mean, you can enter any random ASCII text string it would be valid code and will be executed 20:51:00 A simple program, this one will copy a piece of data 20:51:07 :"." 20:51:13 cat 20:51:22 which will result in "."."." 20:51:28 ah not cat 20:51:29 opps 20:51:33 ".""." 20:52:01 program "cat" will print the string "cat" to the screen 20:52:25 cat will print its input to the screen 20:52:39 yes 20:52:55 auto-quine I guess 20:53:16 : copys the next data that follows it 20:53:22 ~ erases the next data 20:55:46 cat is not a quine.. 20:55:46 hmm if cat is a language then all cat programs are quines... 20:55:46 no 20:55:46 echo "Blaaa" > quine.cat;cat quine.cat 20:55:46 Once a program has no remaing character that are executable 20:55:46 that line is released as output 20:58:23 It's hard to explain as it as a langauge is fundimentaly different from everything else outther 20:58:23 (that I know of atleast) 20:58:23 Ok 20:58:23 hmm maybe it's a bit like thue but i don't know enough about your lang to compare it 20:59:18 Hmm 20:59:32 I really whould right a readme to expalin this 20:59:36 Ok let try this 20:59:47 Every command is one letter long 21:00:36 Commands all call data, which are defined as any individual character that is not a command or any set of characters between quites 21:00:41 er quotes 21:01:12 so kk is two datum while "kk" is only one 21:01:53 so if you run the program :kk the result is kkk 21:02:09 but if you run the program :"kk" the result is "kk""kk" 21:03:20 all commands rewrite the source program they are in 21:03:58 So in the program :kk the command : get the next datum k and replaces itself with a copy of that datum 21:04:33 if the program ~kk is run the result is just k 21:05:17 because the command ~ found the next datum and erased it then erased itself from the program 21:05:36 After every command execution starts again at the first character 21:06:02 so in the program ~:kk the result is kk 21:06:42 when it was executing ~looked to get the next character which was a command so it did not execute 21:07:21 : then executed (as it was the next char) and resulted in the program being rewritten as ~kkk 21:07:53 execution then return the the first character ~ which erased the datum 21:07:56 resulting in kk 21:08:22 where k is an arbitrary character 21:28:27 -!- P_Lenz has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Seamantis 1.0.6/20050912]"). 22:15:33 The 1st esoteric prime number: 22:15:35 $>.sync=m=\"\000\";j=0;eval$<.read.tr(x='^[]+><,.-',\"\").gsub(/./){%w{while m[j]>0 end m[j]+=1 (j+=1)>=m.size&&m<<0 j-=1 m[j]=STDIN.getc||0 putc m[j]\nm[j]-=1}[x.index($&)-1]+\";\"}# [ 22:16:01 (big-endian number (base 256 (ascii encoded)) 22:17:11 ouch... ruby? 22:17:14 yes 22:17:25 not installed *shrug* 22:17:35 it's a ruby brainfuck interpreter wrapped in a prime number 22:17:51 i'm generating a Prime certificate atm 22:18:57 i made a paste error 22:19:09 $>.sync=m="";j=0;eval$<.read.tr(x='^[]+><,.-',"").gsub(/./){%w{while m[j]>0 end m[j]+=1 (j+=1)>=m.size&&m<<0 j-=1 m[j]=STDIN.getc||0 putc m[j] 22:19:10 m[j]-=1}[x.index($&)-1]+";"}# [ 22:19:12 arg 22:20:12 hmm maybe i did some more mistakes 22:20:17 brb 22:20:28 be sure before obtaining the certificate :) 22:34:36 why? 22:35:22 a prime certificate are some computable numbers that prove that some number is prime 22:35:37 there are programs that calculate them 22:44:11 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 23:06:19 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 2005-09-15: 00:05:51 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:12:33 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:14:17 -!- kipple has joined. 00:15:34 -!- lament has joined. 00:29:41 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 01:40:36 in brainfuck, can you nest []? 01:40:43 yes 01:40:51 right on 01:41:05 so I need to implement a loop stack of sorts... 01:41:21 you're writing an interpreter? 01:41:24 yep 01:41:31 you don't need a loop stack 01:41:58 you can just move the instruction pointer forwards/backwards to the corresponding [/] 01:42:42 well... if I have "[...[...]...]" and I'm at the right-most ']' I need to know where the corresponding '[' which would be the left-most... 01:43:11 I suppose could count the ']'s and do it that way, but I don't see how that's any easier... 01:43:23 counting is easy. 01:43:33 but feel free to use a stack 01:43:47 I'm writing it in ocaml, and using lists to store the program... it's easier to just keep a stack 01:43:57 a stack should be more efficient as well 01:44:06 it's a direct jump that way, I don't have to traverse backwards... 01:44:08 as you can jump directly to the right address 01:44:13 exactly 01:44:46 well, thanks :) 01:45:38 you're welcome. and good luck :) 01:45:41 also, have you heard about braintwist? 01:45:51 yes 01:46:01 can't remember which that one is though 01:46:14 there are so many bf-like languages 01:46:58 its the one where the program resides in one array, and the data in the other, and there is a new operation '@' (or something) which causes the arrays to change locations so that now you are executing from the data array, or something 01:47:14 ah, that one. 01:47:20 that's quite nice 01:47:24 I can't find much about it, but it seems like a fun one, I'm just trying to figure out how it would work... 01:47:27 twobitsprite: another way is to keep a dictionary 01:47:32 of all loop starts and ends 01:47:41 so that you look up where to jump to 01:48:08 the dictionary is only built once when the program is loaded. 01:48:19 this might be faster, i'm not sure 01:48:29 lament: that might be good... it would optimize larger programs better than small ones though, because you have an extra scanning pass at the beginning of execution... 01:48:35 right 01:48:43 * twobitsprite ponders 01:48:49 but small programs are fast anyhow :) 01:48:54 true... 01:49:01 besides, who writes small programs in BF anymore ;) 01:49:06 and I'll probably be dealing with fairly large programs... 01:49:09 lol 01:49:14 well, if you scan the programs before execution there are of course a lot of optimizations you *could* do... 01:49:41 kipple: i.e. remove superfluous commands, i.e. "+-" etc... 01:49:56 merging ++++++++++++++++ into a singe instruction 01:50:01 kipple: yeah 01:50:13 twobitsprite: also, [->>+++<<] gets optimized into a single instruction, hopefully 01:50:18 and swapping [-] with A[P]=0 01:50:21 and any other expression of that form 01:51:09 indeed... this is slowing becoming a larger project, but much more interesting... I might have to do some of this... :) 01:51:31 the effect is very very noticeable, btw 01:51:56 btw, fyi, I'm using brainfuck to implement genetic algorithms :) I.e. bf programs will be randomly generated, executed and "bred"/etc... :) 01:52:16 brainfuck is very nice for that purpose :) 01:52:33 I figured it would be at least fun/interesting :) 01:52:51 I was thinking about using OISC, but bf seemed more fun to implement... 01:53:06 then I see why you want a very efficient interpreter :) 01:53:12 indeed! 01:53:36 optimizing brainfuck past the things already mentioned is quite a challenge 01:53:50 I plan on having thousands of these programs running at a time, competing round-robbin :) 01:54:06 hm, that might be slow :) 01:54:35 it will... but I also plan to have this distributed, a la SETI@home... 01:54:38 * twobitsprite has high asperations... 01:54:39 that's normal for genetic algorithms 01:55:23 have you seen this, by the way? 01:55:23 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/FukYorBrane 01:55:50 kipple: well, not many do an actual round-robbin... most do double or single elimination because it's easier, but you also run the risk of premature convergance that way... 01:56:19 kipple: no text in that page... 01:56:27 what? 01:56:28 strange 01:56:45 works fine for me 01:57:45 ahh, sorry, gnome-terminal doesn't interpret a \n as whitespace in URLs, and appended the timestamp from the next line onto it... 01:58:31 lol... that's awesome... I'll have to start hacking that 01:58:45 unfortunately it seems like the homepage is down 01:59:07 befunge.org is usually pretty reliable, too.. 01:59:43 I'm assuming by "bomb" they mean stops executing somehow? 02:00:21 IIRC a program is terminated if the IP reaches a certain instruction 02:00:40 interesting... 02:04:12 anyway, doing some genetic programming with an esolang has been something that I've wanted to try myself, but it's on the list of unfulfilled hobby projects ;) 02:33:05 can someone cite an example of a "post canonical system"? 02:56:05 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 03:01:30 The whole goal of my language design is to implement a genetic "digital organism" scenario for a fungeoid 03:01:53 so this is interesting 03:03:54 a braintwist corewars simulation would be cool, but Im not sure how they would fare in a genetic organism sense. 03:08:53 Also, Im afraid I can't give any good definitions of post canonical systems, but there are a couple nice esolangs that implement tag systems 03:20:27 wildhalcyon: which would those be? 03:20:27 Wasn't Thue based on a tag system? 03:20:27 I know fundamentally its based on semi-thue grammar 03:20:27 which still makes it cool 03:20:27 Hmm, now I feel humbled, not finding any tag system languages. I swear I remember reading at least one spec that mentions tag systems 03:22:27 Someone should write a wang tile esolang 03:23:20 * twobitsprite is overwhelmed by the jargon, maybe I should spend a day meditating on the esolang wiki... 03:23:42 hehe. you're not the only one 03:24:25 I'm still trying to grok "functor" and have only a cursory understanding of "monad"... 03:24:29 * wildhalcyon is overwhelmed by jargon in his own head 03:24:51 Hmm. I'll have to say I have NO idea what the heck a functor is.. I'll google it 03:25:26 Hmmm, okay. No clue! 03:25:28 wildhalcyon: check out the core language manual for OCaml, they talk about modules and functors quite a bit... 03:26:16 http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-ocaml/manual018.html 03:26:58 but maybe you'd have to understand OCaml to get anything useful out of that 03:29:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functor 03:29:25 Well, I guess that helps me understand functors in a more applicative setting 03:30:22 the wikipedia entry scared me. I generally get scared when I see "abelian groups" mentioned anywhere 03:30:43 * twobitsprite googles abelian 03:31:40 "A group for which the elements commute (i.e., AB==BA for all elements A and B) is called an Abelian group. " 03:31:44 yeah, sounds scary... 03:32:00 :P 03:32:14 Well, not necessarily. I understand abelian groups themselves.. but when they're MENTIONED. I just dont like group theory much 03:32:37 ahh... I just want to know the difference between group theory and set theory... 03:32:46 does group != set? 03:33:17 I believe groups have a structure to the elements. In set theory the order of the elements don't matter, correct? 03:33:26 ahh 03:33:55 * twobitsprite hopes that "?" is rhetorical, lest you be asking the wrong person... 03:34:29 a group = a set plus an operation on that set 03:34:31 although, I seem to remember something about that in my descrete math class I took, so you might be right... 03:34:42 It was rhetorical in the sense that you don't need to answer it, but I can't really tell you what is correct 03:34:46 and the operation has to fulfil certain properties 03:34:50 Mr. Pressey saves the day! 03:36:44 i've been reading some weird stuff about finite automata as semigroups lately... it's pretty strange. you can do linear algebra on regexps if you try hard enough :) 03:37:27 -!- kubient has quit ("running(out)"). 03:38:14 How hard do you have to try? 03:40:30 Chris, I have to admit, you come up with good language names 03:44:34 -!- kubient has joined. 03:48:47 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:55:06 -!- kubient has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:05:28 wildhalcyon: well, you have to treat alternation (a|b) as addition, and concatenation (ab) as multiplication, and you can solve sets of simultaneous equations of the form X = CX + Y where X, C, and Y are regular expressions 04:05:32 blew my mind :) 04:15:51 Hmm.. okay, that's kind of freaky 04:24:02 It seems like everything is turing complete nowadays 04:24:43 I guess regex's arent TC, but they can solve linear algebra systems 04:26:33 Oh well, me and my fractured rib are calling it a night. G'night! 04:27:56 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("Whoops, There I go"). 04:42:30 what would one have to add to regexps to make them TC? 04:49:27 the easiest thing is to be able to reapply a regex 04:49:45 er 04:49:56 i mean, reapply a substitution 04:50:06 recursion? 04:50:06 i.e. running a substitution in a loop until it fails to match anything is TC 04:50:22 but that's probably not what you meant :) 04:50:58 (actually, i'm not sure about this. hrm) 04:50:59 well... running a sub in a loop would simply be a compiler, in which case the thing you are applying the regex to is the actual language, right? 04:51:25 not sure how that would be a compiler. 04:51:35 compilers produce code of some sort. 04:52:16 but I would imagine that the "code" being produced is the state the string you're applying this to after each step of the process, no? 04:52:46 how's that "code"? 04:52:50 * twobitsprite thinks... 04:53:02 er 04:53:02 wait 04:53:06 i guess you're right 04:53:11 blah 04:53:42 the rexeg would have to have some way to modify itself or at least create new regex to be applied, no? 04:54:03 otherwise regex is just a recursive function being applied to its output... 04:56:16 I guess the problem is, regex can't branch really... 04:57:19 I think I might just be confusing myself 04:59:46 one article on slash-dot (not that they can always be trusted) says that Perl's regex _is_ turing complete... but I think that might just be because you can embed Perl expressions in regex... 06:37:40 -!- Arrogant has joined. 06:38:47 The channel always this jumpin'? 06:40:05 always 06:40:28 you missed our discussion about turing-complete regexps... :P 06:43:58 * Arrogant is making BF with functions 06:44:15 Somehow I think it's against all that BF stands for. 06:44:23 Like. Fucking with brains. 06:46:36 also, turing-complete regexps... isn't that what Perl is all about :D 06:53:58 -!- nooga has joined. 06:54:05 hi 06:54:26 brainfuck with functions? there's several. 06:56:52 heh 07:00:20 Yeah. 07:00:27 There're too many variations to count. 07:00:33 I just felt like making my own. 07:01:15 i beg you to reconsider :) 07:01:23 It's already done. 07:01:33 ouch 07:01:50 Uses a real parser to do it too XD 07:01:56 pyparsing library 07:02:17 It's probably the most flexible Brainfuck, at least. 07:02:43 disgusting. 07:02:52 Indeed. 07:03:11 you should use words as tokens, then. 07:03:35 That'd take a change in a couple lines of code 07:03:39 begin subtract left add left add right right end 07:03:49 I don't want to though :/ 07:03:56 macro brainfuck lol :D 07:05:12 i just thought about macros in brainfuck :> 07:05:41 I think there're a couple of those 07:06:14 Arrogant: what esolang is your favourite? 07:06:31 nooga: Befunge 07:06:58 Anyway 07:07:24 {zero:[-]} /* Sets cell to 0 */ ++++{zero}! /* Outputs 0 */ 07:08:17 A function is passed a NEW memory array, with the current cell's value in cell 0 of that array. 07:08:59 On call, the current cell is set to the value of tempContext.mem[tempContext.pointer] 07:09:17 aha 07:09:18 I'll probably make macros too, would take minimal effort. 07:10:24 tokigun 07:18:55 Hmm. I seem to be hitting some nasty STOP DOING ANYTHING with this 07:26:37 my favourite esolang is smetana :( 07:35:04 my favourite is SADOL ;p 07:38:53 Night. 07:39:02 -!- Arrogant has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Leading Edge IRC"). 07:53:59 -!- calamari has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:25:43 heh 08:50:10 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:12:41 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:09:53 -!- kipple has joined. 14:15:16 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 14:15:26 Hello 14:15:37 hi 14:16:17 How are you senor kipple? 14:16:32 fine thank you. and you? 14:20:13 Just dandy 14:20:34 My university made a fantastic decision to turn down my loan however... so Im scrambling for funding 14:21:23 that's too bad 14:22:29 I'll survive. I just bought a new used car though, so I've got some additional expenses to worry about this year 14:22:38 where do you live? 14:23:03 Raleigh, NC. 14:23:31 ah, the US. so you get loans form your universities? 14:24:31 Yes. They gave me one loan, but they're definition of my budget << my definition of my budget, so I decided to take out an additional private student loan through my bank 14:24:57 Apparently, in order for the bank to award the loan, it has to go through a certification process through my school. 14:25:26 The school not only refused to certify the loan (on the basis that my budget didn't need it), but they also failed to tell both my bank AND me about this non-certification 14:26:52 So I have to find another way of getting some money for school 14:27:51 Anyhow, rather than live in this world of funding and part-time jobs, I escape to the world of esolangs. Trying to find ways to make SMETANA TC and Wang Tile background patterns for CAs 14:30:17 They're related problems. I didn't know it was an issue, until I started looking for ways to implement an inifinite, but varied, background topology for my fungoid (or is it fungeoid?) 14:30:36 I think it is fungeoid 14:31:05 though I don't think you'll find it in the dictionary 14:31:07 Okay. I dont expect to see it in Merriam-Webster or Oxford soon.. hmm, maybe I should submit the words to the OED for the next printing? ;-) 14:31:59 -!- jix has joined. 14:32:39 Hey Jix! 14:33:42 Alright folks, its been fun, but I unfortunately have to head to class. 14:34:04 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 14:57:24 -!- J|x has joined. 14:57:58 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:58:00 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 17:10:22 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 17:23:56 Hello again 17:23:56 moin wildhalcyon 17:23:56 /away 17:23:57 how's the day goin jix? 17:23:57 aside from being away I guess 17:30:48 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 17:47:07 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:20:58 -!- jix has joined. 19:02:50 -!- J|x has joined. 19:02:54 -!- J|x has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:03:05 -!- xxxxxx has joined. 19:03:20 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 19:03:24 -!- xxxxxx has changed nick to jix. 19:40:04 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:24:30 -!- int-e has joined. 21:41:12 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 23:22:33 -!- int-e has quit ("Client exiting"). 2005-09-16: 00:09:48 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 00:20:38 Does anyone understand how Wang Tiles are TC? Is it just because of the halting problem? 00:21:13 * kipple doesn't even know what a Wang Tile is.... 00:22:25 Its a square tile with a specific coupling on either face. 00:23:11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_tile 00:24:32 Hmm, I guess the page answered my question with the phrase "It is possible to translate any Turing machine into a set of Wang tiles, such that the Wang tiles can tile the plane if and only if the Turing machine will never halt." 00:24:57 Not exactly clear on how the translation might go about. I wonder if it is possible to translate brainfuck into a set of wang tiles? 03:38:53 -!- Arrogant has joined. 04:57:01 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:05:41 anyone here know OCaml, and care to help me debug my BF interpreter? I'm having some very frustrating problems that I can't for the life of me figure out... 05:08:51 I had been meaning to learn O'Caml but had never gotten around to it 05:10:23 it's a very fun/interesting language, though proving difficult in raw byte processing a la BF... 05:15:46 Ah. 05:15:51 I've been using Python for my interpreters. 05:21:16 python is nice... the string manipulation is much more intuitive in python, although appearantly OCaml is great for compilers, I just haven't been able to grok thier built-in parser type yet... 05:24:29 Hehe. 05:24:43 You should try out pyparsing sometime. 05:24:48 That is some intensely intuclass BrainfunkError (Exception): pass 05:24:48 class Instruction (object): 05:24:48 """Abstract class for a Brainfunk instruction. This is what the interpreter deals with.""" 05:24:48 children = {} 05:24:49 char = "" 05:24:50 05:24:52 def perform (self, context): 05:24:54 """Perform the required action on the given context.""" 05:24:56 pass 05:24:58 05:25:00 Err 05:25:02 Wrong button 05:25:11 That's one intensely intuitive library. 05:25:18 lol 05:25:48 I have a lot of problems with the direction python is going development-wise... 05:26:21 i.e. they want to remove all of the alrady sparse functional aspects from the language 05:27:01 Python sucks at functional, so why have it 05:27:20 Although I admit 05:27:24 lambdas should stick around. 05:27:28 python also has a lot of exceptions to rules, and special cases, and the syntax is a bit too overloaded for my taste 05:27:38 lambdas should be _fixed_ in python 05:28:16 It's not perfect, but it's my favorite. 05:29:07 th language is very elegant at first, but as you discover a lot of the nuances of the inner workings of the language you'll realize it's very poorly designed... 05:29:18 ...much like Java... 05:29:47 although Java has Python beat in its regularity... 05:31:03 If Python was a compiled language with decently optimizing compiler, I migh consider putting up with the irregularities and go back to it... 05:32:11 They're working on it. 05:32:49 I haven't heard anything about a Python compiler... 05:32:54 have any links? 05:33:08 I know they're working on a JIT, but that's hardly the same... 05:33:42 The PyPy project has compiling as one of its goals 05:33:47 But uh, there's not much to look at yet. 05:34:08 PyPy has been trying to get something worth looking at for years now, IIRC... 05:34:42 * Arrogant shrugs 06:42:41 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:46:07 -!- Arrogant has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The future of IRC"). 07:09:47 -!- serif has joined. 07:10:38 -!- serif has left (?). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:50:14 -!- GregorR has joined. 12:48:08 -!- kipple has joined. 14:13:09 -!- jix has joined. 14:16:30 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit). 15:02:48 -!- jix has joined. 17:28:07 -!- twobitsprite has quit ("Lost terminal"). 18:47:23 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server"). 18:47:57 -!- cmeme has joined. 19:40:13 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 20:39:45 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:35:16 -!- Arrogant has joined. 22:32:47 -!- calamari has joined. 22:32:52 hi 22:33:20 oi-oi 22:35:17 hello mother goose 22:36:56 ? 22:37:37 grim_: http://www.grimmy.com/ 22:39:06 aha 22:46:53 Anyone have any ideas for beefing up Brainfuck? 22:47:05 I can add new features in a couple seconds. 22:48:16 I've added functions with unique memory arrays and a bunch of scope-manipulations stuff. 22:53:47 heresy! 22:53:57 Yeah yeah. 22:54:00 ;) 22:54:38 I'm learning how to do this kinda stuff so that I can write more complicated ones? 22:54:40 ones.* 22:57:30 how about loading external modules 22:58:44 I'm getting to that next, actually 23:00:52 I should add tailcall recursion 23:16:21 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 23:20:16 -!- Arrogant has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Try something fresh"). 2005-09-17: 00:53:25 -!- grim_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:53:58 -!- grim_ has joined. 01:01:45 -!- Keymaker has joined. 01:01:55 'ello 01:02:29 hi keymaker 01:02:34 hi 01:10:48 -!- grim__ has joined. 01:22:49 -!- grim___ has joined. 01:23:20 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:29:34 -!- grim_ has joined. 01:30:11 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:31:17 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 01:42:11 -!- grim___ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:23:44 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:24:13 -!- calamari has joined. 03:03:51 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 03:06:11 hry! 03:06:14 hey! even 03:11:08 hi wildhalcyon 03:11:26 how are you calamari? 03:15:40 fine, yourself? 03:39:59 its been a crazy week 04:16:25 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:39:13 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 04:48:56 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("Whoops, There I go"). 05:32:40 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:36:17 -!- grim__ has joined. 06:48:48 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:27:52 -!- calamari has joined. 08:27:55 hi 08:57:04 -!- jix has joined. 09:14:47 -!- int-e has joined. 10:30:26 -!- grim_ has joined. 10:37:57 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 11:01:08 -!- grim_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:01:40 -!- grim_ has joined. 11:02:53 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 11:41:20 -!- grim_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:41:52 -!- grim_ has joined. 11:57:41 -!- grim__ has joined. 12:06:27 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 12:10:14 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:14:36 -!- grim_ has joined. 12:20:20 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:20:20 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:21:20 -!- grim_ has joined. 12:46:18 -!- grim__ has joined. 12:51:05 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:56:06 -!- grim__ has joined. 12:56:38 -!- jix has joined. 12:58:51 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:05:13 -!- J|x has joined. 13:06:50 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 13:06:52 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 13:14:32 -!- kipple has joined. 13:23:11 -!- grim_ has joined. 13:35:43 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:56:18 -!- grim__ has joined. 14:08:50 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:24:25 -!- grim_ has joined. 14:37:01 whoa 14:37:05 too many grim_s 14:39:58 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:54:07 -!- sp3tt has joined. 14:55:28 -!- grim__ has joined. 15:07:59 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:19:32 -!- nooga has joined. 15:19:42 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit). 15:20:07 -!- nooga has joined. 15:20:34 -!- grim_ has joined. 15:33:04 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:35:58 ~ hello 16:03:55 -!- grim__ has joined. 16:16:28 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:20:04 -!- grim_ has joined. 16:29:32 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:32:21 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:39:30 -!- grim_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:40:02 -!- grim_ has joined. 16:48:43 -!- grim__ has joined. 16:52:13 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:57:30 -!- grim__ has joined. 17:01:19 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:27:58 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:43:48 -!- grim_ has joined. 17:51:28 -!- grim__ has joined. 18:04:04 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:23:05 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 19:33:49 -!- J|x has joined. 19:36:48 ARGH! 19:36:52 and not the language either 19:38:56 Im having trouble deciding on data types 19:42:16 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:45:24 -!- J|x has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:45:28 Im thinking of modelling the datatypes after the B language - a single datatype which acts as a 32-bit signed integer OR a 4-byte character string. 19:45:30 -!- J|x has joined. 19:46:02 The other alternative is to have each element be an arbitrarily long byte list which can act as an arbitrarily long signed int or a character string 19:49:05 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 20:01:10 -!- J|x has joined. 20:01:34 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:01:40 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 20:04:57 -!- grim__ has changed nick to grim_. 20:08:48 well 20:09:08 my connection is fucked inside-out and backwards today 20:10:50 and the connection from my shell account to freenode is also toilet 20:12:08 best give up and try again another time 20:12:13 laters ppl 20:12:16 -!- grim_ has left (?). 20:14:26 -!- J|x has joined. 20:14:48 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:14:51 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 20:44:47 -!- sp3tt has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 21:10:43 -!- Keymaker has joined. 21:10:50 'ello. 21:30:18 -!- Wildhalcyon_ has joined. 21:30:26 Hey Keymaker! 21:32:40 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:32:46 -!- Wildhalcyon_ has changed nick to Wildhalcyon. 21:33:33 hello 21:33:44 Are you familiar with Smurf? 21:33:50 some language? 21:33:55 yes 21:33:58 sorry, nope 21:34:43 i'm working on a gammaplex demo at the moment 21:34:45 Hmm, alright. Its pretty much string-oriented 21:34:51 Gammaplex is crazy! :-) 21:34:51 ok 21:34:56 yes :) 21:35:21 Im working on a fungeoid as well 21:35:24 i should browse the logs to find one piece of info i asked aardwolf about random number.. 21:35:31 More string, less I/O craziness 21:35:32 ah 21:37:11 Im thinking about ways to use A-Z to serve as landmarks. There aren't any absolute coordinates in my language 21:37:40 ok 21:37:51 It would be nice to remember where something is after you've... left it. 21:38:41 I was thinking of the way that Smurf stored variables as any valid string - even the null string. 21:38:49 So what random number business are you wondering about? 21:40:51 i'm trying to get a value between 0 and 300 21:41:30 ok 21:42:28 ..but i guess now i have to wait aardwolf because i can't get it working.. 21:46:17 What about 300K*o 21:49:09 hmm 21:49:37 not sure if it works.. 21:50:13 300K*o i R >< 21:50:21 it prints always 0.. 21:52:07 Hmm, thats strange 21:52:17 is there some kind of seeding mechanism that needs to be done... or something? 21:52:25 no idea 21:52:54 can't remember seeing anything in the spec 21:53:29 I dont see anything either 21:54:03 It seems like its either the PRNG, the rounding, or the "print integer" functions are failing 21:54:03 i hope it's possible though.. 21:54:15 It should be, I mean.. that's what the random number generator is there fore 21:54:21 :) 21:55:00 well, i guess i can't get really started until aardwolf is here 21:55:11 whenever i see him.. 21:56:18 Good luck 21:56:46 You could maybe email him as well 21:56:52 yeah 22:16:35 -!- Sgep has joined. 22:16:51 Hi all 22:17:01 -!- telemakh0s has joined. 22:17:39 hello 22:17:53 hey... I'm looking for a language that's easily to generate correct code in... I.e. I'm doing genetic algorithms and need to be able to generate and modify code programmatically... 22:18:09 brainfuck? :) 22:18:37 that's the closest easy-generatable one that comes to my mind 22:19:16 hmm... brainfuck is a bit slow, maybe something with more instructions? i.e. a language that isn't going to require a high program to do anything interesting in... 22:19:31 s/high/large/ 22:19:57 brainfuck is fast, but the interpreters aren't optimizing enough ;) 22:20:19 lol 22:20:31 that's true 22:20:51 with that argument all languages are equally fast, it's just that the compilers aren't equalling optinizing :P 22:20:59 yes 22:21:37 anyways; many small brainfuck programs do something interesting 22:21:42 but i got your point though 22:21:51 ;0 22:21:55 er, ;) 22:22:06 you can naturally made something own language if you have ideas for instructions 22:22:19 but remember bf has everything needed, and in perfect symmetry 22:22:48 true... 22:24:51 what are genetic algorithms, anyways? 22:27:21 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithms 22:28:25 aha 22:29:47 yet another we-don't-know-what-we're-doing-so-let's-just-shoot-in-the-dark-aimlessly-and-hope-we-hit-something-technique. 22:31:56 :) 22:32:00 I like to call it the 10000 monkey's approach... 22:32:13 lol 22:53:09 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:59:43 telemakh0s? 23:02:26 I'd check out the article "The Evolutionary Origin of Complex Features" by Richard Lenski et al 23:02:58 Im having trouble finding a link online, but I have a local pdf copy if you would like me to email it to you 23:03:20 It details some of the effects on programming language mechanics in digital organisms 23:03:58 How 'lethal' or deleterious an instruction mutation would be. 23:06:10 If you're looking at esolangs, simple is good - brainfuck is good, maybe an 'optimized' bf varient that can work with integers instead of ++ and -- and uses a binary gray code 23:08:51 a false varient (maybe OWL - see BogusForth), or Smurf (small, hard to screw up instruction set) and maybe nooga's SADOL, but I haven't looked at that one enough. 23:10:49 digital organisms don't work well with GOTO statements in general, but maybe Spaghetti might be interesting? 23:30:46 -!- calamari has joined. 23:30:50 hi 23:30:54 hello 23:30:55 hey calamari 23:30:59 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 23:31:06 hi Keymaker, Wildhalcyon 23:31:17 Anything exciting going on? 23:31:26 -!- ihope has joined. 23:31:35 I was working on a way to stork class files in the wiki 23:31:52 Hmm, this is IRC? :-) 23:31:56 I can convert them to a 6/7 bit format (html compatible) 23:31:59 hi ihope 23:32:04 Hello :-) 23:32:06 i hope so :D 23:32:22 Heh. I came here to try to write an IRP program. 23:32:32 ok 23:32:55 it uses 91 characters, which isn't an even power of two, but I came up with a scheme that if it were in a certain range the output would be 7 bits, otherwise it'd be 6 bits.. which I can decode 23:33:22 Ahem: "Everybody, will you all *please* try to act as if intelligent?" ;-) 23:33:34 this means the efficiency of my encoding is in between 6 and 7 bits 23:33:46 :) 23:33:58 IRP: SEGMENTATION FAULT; ERROR ACCESSING REGISTER #INTELLIGENT 23:34:05 hehe 23:34:34 but at least you said please ihope 23:35:59 Wildhalcyon: anyways, the hope is that I'll be able to have actual programs visible in EsoShell, then people could encode their program and copy it on too.. wouldn't have to ask permission, etc 23:36:13 Hmm, assuming everyone acts politely, I think that there would be a method to define IPR as being TC given an IRC channel with enough people. 23:36:48 Calamari: That sounds nice 23:37:06 Oh, uh: just what is EsoShell? :-) 23:37:23 ihope: http://esoshell.kidsquid.com/ 23:37:45 ihope: it allows you to use certain esoteric languages straight from your web browser 23:37:53 Hmm, cool :-) 23:37:56 I don't think a bf varient that allows arbitrary-sized integers and negative numbers is TC. 23:38:17 it's quite primitive at this point, but I expect that I'll keep improving it 23:39:07 wildhalcyon: why not? just don't use the negative numbers 23:39:11 * Sgep is using konq, and can't figure out Java, so I can't really see EsoShell :-( 23:39:23 * Sgep heads to #kde 23:39:46 Sgep: does this work? http://www.masswerk.at/jsuix/ 23:39:49 Wildhalcyon: wtf? why wouldn't it be? 23:40:13 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:41:11 Yes, but that's JavaScript 23:41:19 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 23:41:27 Bah. Dumb computer 23:41:30 :-) 23:41:40 re Wildhalcyon 23:41:44 It likes to freeze and hate me 23:42:08 sgep: what online languages can you use beesides javascript? 23:42:20 or is that pretty much it? 23:42:25 PLUS I was working on my specification, which is hopefully due to be finished this weekend 23:42:43 I wish notepad had a file restoration feature... 23:42:52 Hmm? 23:43:09 why are you using notepad 23:43:14 windows xp? 23:43:16 Heh... 23:43:28 Well, Im not using notepad 23:43:30 Im using metapad 23:44:08 but the same problem creeps up. Incidentally, this particular computer isn't a big fan of linux. The sound card and my modem don't have linux drivers, making it pretty hard to enjoy 23:45:05 * ihope "dislikes" devices without Linux drivers 23:45:37 Wildhalcyon: yeah, not having sound is no fun 23:46:05 Anyhow, lament - it wouldn't be because you couldn't initialize a cell to 0 without potentially entering an infinite loop, that I know of. 23:46:06 Well, NetHack's sounds still work fine on any sound card. 23:46:13 have you tried an ubuntu hoary live cd? you might have sound 23:46:19 consider -[-] 23:46:38 Hmm: [-]-[-]? 23:46:50 ihope: that'd go to -inf 23:46:57 twice! 23:47:02 just once 23:47:13 because [ stops at 0 23:47:32 that's why if ou stay in the positive numbers, you should be fine 23:47:35 sorry,I was assuming the initial value was less than 0. 23:47:53 Make it halt on negatives as well, I'd guess? 23:48:02 You would have to 23:48:10 you can do [+] if you're in the negatives 23:48:21 But there's no way to KNOW whether you're positive or negative 23:48:26 Aye... 23:48:42 I thought it was defined that the memory array was zeroed on start 23:49:39 Well, as I said, [-] while negative infinite loops, and [+] while positive infinite loops. 23:49:46 It doesn't need to be that sufficient. Just that you can't have user input. 23:50:05 You can have initial values on the tape - you'll know what they are, and hence can program around them. 23:50:18 You can't do that with nondeterministic user input that could be negative 23:50:19 what about a scheme like this: 0 -1 1 -2 2 -3 3 etc.. then you can do [-] 23:50:20 How about making + move farther away from zero (up if at zero) and - move closer to zero (down if at zero)? 23:50:50 That could work too ihope. A little funny on the mathematics, but it could work 23:50:56 :-) 23:51:18 I like that better :) 23:52:00 Alright, so there is a way to keep it TC 23:52:03 I stand corrected :-) 23:52:12 Or have an infinite loop autodetect thing, but that'd be tricky :-) 23:52:32 Wildhalcyon: you irc withotu a chair? :P 23:52:34 by the way, is one stack enough for turing complete language's memory, if the stack can be reversed? 23:52:45 chair? 23:52:48 I have a chair 23:52:55 you said you stand corrected.. 23:52:59 oh 23:53:01 :) 23:53:02 Well, sometimes I get up from it 23:53:19 I sit uncorrected, stand corrected. 23:53:26 anyways, did anyone catch my guestion..? 23:53:33 I did. 23:53:34 I did, thinking about a response Key 23:53:41 it'd be neat to be able to use a single stack 23:53:44 ok 23:53:53 Im using a single "stack" in my language. 23:54:00 I think it'd be sufficient: just have a special value that, when hit, has you reverse the stack? 23:54:00 i'm planning a new language at the moment 23:54:22 It's implemented as a circular list - so you can rotate the elements forward and backwards, with stack pushing/popping at the current position in the list. 23:54:36 Hmm, sounds cool :-) 23:54:36 hey, that's neat idea 23:54:46 I'm still trying to determine whether allowing only a single loop is still tc 23:54:51 it's kinda like wrapping array with stack elements :) 23:54:59 You mean not being able to nest them? 23:55:01 Including dup and swap, and you can rearrange the stack any way you like 23:55:29 btw, what dup did? 23:55:39 Pop push push? :-) 23:55:42 ihope: yeah.. it'd be a signle loop[ from the end to the start 23:55:47 ok 23:55:57 dup == duplicates top stack element {a -- a a} 23:56:09 swap == {a b -- b a} 23:56:13 yeah 23:56:38 Well, if you clone Brainf*** in it, that means it's Turing-complete :-) 23:56:50 well, not necessarily 23:57:03 you can have partial bf interpreter in befunge 93 :) 23:57:12 or even in trigger 23:57:13 If you implement it *perfectly* ;-) 23:57:25 yes, then :) 23:57:39 Well, yes I think it would be. To make an inner loop, just skip to the end of the outer loop then skip back to the inner one. 23:57:53 I liked the befunge-93 spec a lot, except for the 80 x 25 definition 23:58:04 ihope: yeah it'd be cool :) 23:58:10 i liked especially the 80x25 definition 23:58:16 i like the limitations in stuff 23:58:19 Isn't that how spaghetti does its looping? 23:58:36 Wildhalcyon: spagetti eforces a goto after each statement :) 23:58:55 Right now, my fungeoid's biggest limitation is no jumping. 23:59:17 and I think I put in an error if you tried to jump to the next higher line number 23:59:28 Calamari: I know - it skips to another loop, so there's not really any looping. 23:59:55 Calamari - that was evil, in a great way 23:59:56 Wildhalcyon: you could jump 1 2 3 1.. or 1 2 3 2 2005-09-18: 00:00:07 so there can be multiple loops 00:00:16 1 2 3 2 1? 00:00:33 1 1 2 3 5 8? 00:00:40 ahem. Sorry. 00:00:43 Oh dear. 00:00:53 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884? 00:00:58 NO. 00:01:18 Calamari? What is EsoFunk? 00:01:33 it's a new funk band 00:01:43 we were trying to decide on a bf/befunge hybrid language for the eso os 00:01:50 Heh. If an expansion instruction were added to SMETATA or SMATINY, would that language become Turing-complete? 00:01:52 it kinda fizzled away 00:02:24 although it did inspire bos :) 00:02:30 Calamari: Something like path or snusp? 00:02:43 iHope: expansion instruction? 00:02:44 Hmm, "esos" sounds like a nice name for an esoteric operating system :-) 00:02:47 Wildhalcyon: dunno, I'd have to look at those langs 00:02:57 Yes: Add a new instruction at the end of the program. 00:03:58 For SMETATA, I think it just needs a halting instruction (say, any time it reaches Step 0 or Step -1). 00:04:06 Wildhalcyon: yeah, more like path than snusp I think 00:04:29 Well, does arbitrary memory make anything Turing-complete? 00:04:30 Core SNUSP is my favorite, right now. It just feels.. good. 00:04:31 Wildhalcyon: it wasn't two dimension yet, though 00:04:41 ihope: not necessarily 00:04:49 I mean: arbitrary isn't infinite after all... 00:05:00 ihope: the classical example is a finite automaton coupled with a single stack 00:05:34 the stack is infinite but the automaton can only accept context free grammars, not arbitrary decidable languages. 00:05:43 grammars -> languages 00:05:57 iow, it's not turing complete. 00:06:32 Im having trouble implementing jumping in my fungeoid, trying to decide how to deal with connectivity 00:07:55 int-e: It essentially has a "window" on the stack that cannot grow or shrink, and the top of the window can't move below the top of the stack. 00:08:09 You know, that'd be a great thing to directly put inside a language. 00:11:18 The language will be way too slow if its not easy enough to determine connectivity between two cells 00:12:36 btw, should popping empty stack return 0 or cause an error? 00:12:39 which one is better? 00:12:47 Error, I think... 00:13:06 in a way, yeah 00:13:23 Or just leave whatever you're popping to as it already is. 00:13:34 yeah, that might be good too 00:13:43 aargh, too many choices.. 00:14:09 Heh... 00:14:10 Wildhalcyon: add jump-points and rails. When moving off a jump-point, you follow the rail to its end. I'm not sure what this'll actually do, but it might do something :-) 00:14:49 ihope, right now, I'm just implementing it as a topologically independent instruction. I.E. as far as jumping is concerned, two points are ALWAYS connected 00:15:16 Hmm... sounds good :-) 00:15:49 Some of the earlier ideas I had included wormholes, but the syntax for definining them would be difficult at best, so I dumped them. It still might be possible with the A-Z instructions. 00:20:15 How about jumpwalls, which are jumped over such that you land just after the next jumpwall? 00:21:06 like the ; instruction in befunge? Won't work for my language with the current design. 00:23:11 ...I don't see a ; instruction. 00:24:15 Its in the funge-98 specification 00:24:24 "nothing executed until next semicolon" 00:24:59 Ah :-0 00:25:04 Erm I mean :-) 00:26:02 * ihope wonders where the java console went, and if chatzilla kidnapped it 00:27:00 kidnaps chatzilla 00:27:59 Thanks.... except I still can't find the Java console... 00:28:44 I'm retyping out the mini-spec on the topological spaces. I'll post the link when I finish it and upload it 00:31:57 * ihope javaconsoles himself 00:32:14 -!- ihope has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:32:20 ha! 00:32:26 solved one problem i had.. 00:32:35 ha! 00:32:40 what was that? 00:32:49 it was in this language design 00:33:02 i don't want to tell, because that would reveal about the language 00:33:20 hmmm. That in itself is a clue. 00:33:27 d'oh! 00:33:29 :) 00:33:56 -!- ihope has joined. 00:34:03 ouch 00:34:07 now the secret is out 00:34:12 hehe 00:34:37 Secret? :-o 00:34:50 shhh 00:35:21 exactly 00:35:49 * ihope wonders whether this is a coincidence or a minor prank :-) 00:36:20 :) 00:36:55 it's just a coincidence, don't worry 00:36:59 * ihope does a minor wtf at this website 00:37:00 it doesn't concern you anyway 00:37:06 not like we would tell you if it did 00:37:06 :-) 00:37:13 s/anyway/in any way 00:38:06 if i were you, i'd just pretend nothing happened 00:38:49 Okay. /me listens to the crickets chirping instead ;-) 00:40:08 -!- ihope has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 00:40:17 Hmm 00:41:04 http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/colorspaces.txt anyone have any comments for me? 00:42:05 -!- ihope has joined. 00:42:38 (shhhh) 00:43:17 (argh: yes, I'll use a verticon) o_o 00:43:43 You too ihope 00:43:50 cool, a sinhgle loop seems fine.. implemented bf 00:44:25 I may be able to use a single switch statement too (no if's) 00:44:54 ...Okay: how do I get EsoShell to work? :-) 00:46:31 ihope, just go here.. it should work http://esoshell.kidsquid.com/ 00:46:37 You crazy fool calamari!! muahahahhahaaaaaaa 00:46:44 * Sgep got Java to work under FF 00:46:52 FF? 00:46:56 FireFox 00:47:20 Start: applet not initialized. 00:49:00 oh, yay 00:49:14 ihope: that usually means you're using ie 00:49:16 Im using esoshell in FF 00:49:41 ...But I'm not :-) 00:49:41 I didn't get EsoShell to work in FF though 00:49:55 This is Mac OS X... should I try Safari? 00:50:34 ihope: it uses java 1.4.. wonder what version os x comes with 00:51:48 Aha. Firefox only recognizes 1.3.1. 00:52:11 i should cut back then 00:52:23 i can probably make do with 1.2 functions 00:52:39 Well, it might work in Safari... 00:53:40 I tried making a 1.1 compliant awt version but it was horrible 00:54:34 no idea how that guy did it in javascript.. 00:54:53 Bleh. DNS borked 00:55:15 Javascript? 00:55:16 Hmm, I should probably remove my WIP from the wiki page since I dont have anyone to be collaborative on it with. 00:55:43 ihope: http://www.masswerk.at/jsuix/ 00:56:10 ihope: something similar in javascript.. not free though 00:56:55 one adanvatage to the way he is doing it is that you don't actually have a real cursor.. maybe I should do that too 00:59:52 Cute. CRITICAL ERROR: The file exists! 01:01:40 ihope: that's a cool language, by Keymaker :) 01:02:05 ? 01:02:06 btw Keymaker, what's your real name so I can give you better credit 01:02:13 (for unnecessary) 01:02:16 what language 01:02:17 ah 01:02:22 nice that you like it 01:03:11 oh, and you can find the real name from friends-of-brainfuck list 01:03:53 Uh, how do I *create* a file in EsoShell? :-) 01:04:20 ihope echo "whatever" > filename 01:04:29 Aha 01:04:38 wah! is f-o-bf down?! 01:05:55 .drawkcab gniphce tsuj s'taC .raed hO 01:06:01 How do I exit? :-) 01:06:06 I searched my mail for "keymaker" but found nothing :) 01:06:30 well, i'll e-mail the name for you then.. 01:08:47 ok, done 01:08:51 Anyone get a chance to look at the file link I posted above? 01:08:57 yes 01:09:22 Any comments or profanity for me? 01:09:41 ...What file? :-) 01:09:52 If you like, you can right a f*ckf*ck program that prints the comments out for me? 01:10:14 http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/colorspaces.txt 01:10:18 ihope: that file 01:13:04 -!- int-e has left (?). 01:13:21 Argh: EsoShell just sorta conked out. 01:13:43 keymaker: cool, thanks.. now I can give you proper credit :) 01:13:57 ihope: what were you doing? 01:14:13 btw, credit.. where? :) 01:14:31 Keymaker: there is an unnecessary interpreter in esoshell 01:14:37 ah, cool! 01:14:40 gotta try 01:15:07 I wrote it from scratch, but used the error messages out of your original 01:15:36 Oh, uh, I wondered just what "mount" did, then played around with cat... 01:16:59 ihope: do you remember what mount command you tried? I'd like to fix any bugs :) 01:17:16 "mount wiki README" :-) 01:17:41 hehe, nice. unnecessary interpreter itself is easy, but can't think of an esolang where unnecessary interpreter could be written.. 01:17:56 What esolangs open files? 01:18:14 i know none that could open files 01:18:24 funge 98 can 01:18:27 Make brainf*** able to open files. 01:18:42 -!- calamari_ has joined. 01:18:46 well, preferably not 01:18:54 re's 01:19:00 Why not? :-) 01:19:09 files are useless! 01:19:25 numberix can open files 01:19:29 PESOIX? 01:19:33 <-- new 01:19:49 Nah, just stick all the files in one big chuck in negative memory. 01:20:01 hehe 01:20:18 Well, you'd need an actual filesystem of course :-) 01:20:47 ihope: weird.. I did did that mount and it worked fine 01:21:18 then I did `cat "abc" > wiki:a' 01:21:24 use braintwist - put the files in the data array, and move to the files using the code array 01:22:06 for the last time, i don't want to open files! aaargh lol 01:22:09 Is there a brainf*** interpreter that works with PESOIX? 01:22:33 Well, it wasn't the mount... I think. The applet just failed to load. 01:22:42 ihope: weird 01:22:50 But its not opening files... its just... manipulating the data space. Hmm.. might be a project I look into... 01:23:37 http://jonripley.com/easel/api.txt 01:23:43 ihope: if a program freezes you can try ctrl-c 01:24:09 sgep: bos implements esoapi 1.0, but not the full pesoix 01:24:20 Hmm... okay :-) 01:24:52 i have a lot of hacks in there.. need to take them out and use real stuff like signals, I know 01:25:33 How does one make an API call? 01:25:45 it started out as a shell, and it's getting more and more like an os, so I need to rework a lot of stuff with it 01:25:51 ihope: in esoapi? 01:26:01 ...Yeah :-) 01:26:11 output 00 (nul) 01:26:20 Ah 01:26:33 then the next char is the function 01:26:37 Wait... is output a comma or a period? 01:26:45 period 01:26:50 . 01:26:56 :-) 01:27:36 Okay; my Macintosh skills are limited. I'll run over to Windows... 01:27:42 -!- ihope has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 01:31:31 I wonder if I could make something that is lynx compatible :) 01:36:21 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:39:00 -!- calamari_ has changed nick to calamari. 01:42:11 gentlemen, which one looks better: 01:42:11 ) 01:42:11 ()()()() 01:42:11 (((()))) 01:42:12 ( 01:42:14 or 01:42:18 ( 01:42:18 )()()()( 01:42:20 ))))(((( 01:42:22 ) 01:42:30 As far as...? 01:42:37 ? 01:42:48 it's the language i'm designing 01:42:53 i like the first better 01:42:58 I do too, I think 01:43:02 Is that the name of the language? 01:43:11 no 01:43:13 that's code 01:43:15 lol 01:43:18 Hmm. Still evil. 01:43:41 i'll posts specs probably later today 01:43:54 but since i revealed this much i can tell a bit; 01:44:05 ) and ( are used as loops, the brainfuck way 01:44:26 the memory is a stack, that is accessible the brainfuck way 01:44:44 like one can increase and decrease the current value of stack 01:44:47 the topmost value 01:45:08 the instructions are selected by pattern of () 01:45:16 like for example ((((())))) 01:45:23 mmkay 01:45:26 but i haven't yet selected all of them 01:47:35 oh, wait.. 01:47:50 i may have another design idea for this, gotta think 01:48:43 Good luck ;-) 01:58:09 Wildhalcyon: I'd love a copy of that article... I can't find it online either 01:58:26 Whats your email telemakh0s? 01:59:14 Also, can you point me to a link to OWL? 01:59:23 twobitsprite@gmail.com 02:00:41 Sent 02:00:47 awesome, thanks 02:00:59 http://it.geocities.com/tonibin/ 02:01:34 which one is used usually more, push or pop? 02:01:59 I'd say push 02:02:06 ok 02:02:21 Keymaker: I would imagine they would be used about equally, unless you either plan on abandonning things at the bottom of the stack, or trying to top things from an empty stack... 02:02:34 s/top/pop/ 02:02:38 hmm 02:02:38 push(a) push(b) add pop(c) 02:02:46 -!- heatsink has joined. 02:02:55 see how you use one less pop for each push in this case? 02:03:20 Plus, many languages pop an operation as a side effect of their main purpose, such as output 02:03:21 Wildhalcyon: ahh... but things are still popped, the pop is just implied in the "add" 02:03:35 hmm 02:03:40 no? 02:03:51 (just thinking..) 02:04:05 That's correct, but I assumed he meant simple popping 02:04:22 but I can see your point 02:04:50 If you're dealing with a language which has registers and a stack, you need to push and pop to/from the stack and the register to do ANYTHING with the values 02:04:58 so you WILL be pushing and popping just about equally 02:05:05 so I guess you meant in terms of which ones a programmer would explicitly use, in which case push definately... 02:05:11 exactly 02:05:48 I wonder if kemaker is trying to make a bf with a stack... 02:06:01 s/ke/key 02:06:11 nope 02:06:18 that isn't my purpose 02:06:41 Oh, darn, that would have been interesting 02:07:09 one problem with bf as a language for use in G/A, is that you have to ensure that [] are matched and that you don't have more <'s than you do >'s... 02:07:40 unless you just ignore unmatced braces and assume the "tape" wraps arround... 02:07:41 Right, but that can just be considered a lethal mutation 02:08:23 The number of mutations that can cause unmatched [] is small with respect to the total number of mutations 02:08:31 true..., but if you only have 8 possible states for each element of the program, and each state is equally probable, you'll end up with a _lot_ of fatal mutations... 02:09:15 well... if you mutate a single atom of the program, you have a 1/4 chance of it being either [ or ]... 02:09:27 Hmm, good point 02:09:46 I hadn't really thought of that 02:10:03 And BF has a LOT of [ and ] 02:10:38 yes, in fact you argue that [ and ] are the two most important instructions, as they provide for branching... 02:10:49 you ^could^ argue 02:10:56 I wouldn't disagree 02:11:18 but it doesnt mean they aren't mutable 02:11:47 I'm not saying that... I'm just trying to figure out a way to mutate them, with out it resulting in mostly fatal mutations 02:11:49 Since the language isn't rewritable, you always know which [ goes to which ], which is equivalent to knowing how long your loop is 02:12:09 You can either A) make mutating your braces VERY unlikely 02:12:27 or B) remove the braces and replace them with "skip n" instructions 02:12:29 or make it so that mutatin one brace causes the matching one to mutate? 02:12:43 hmm, hadn't thought of that either 02:12:58 I don't think "skip n" would work, because you have to be able to "skipback n" too... 02:13:16 not if you implement the language with a function stack 02:13:36 you have a counter that counts to n, then goes back, counts to n, then goes back 02:14:28 -!- CXI has joined. 02:15:24 The problem is that n needs to be unbounded 02:18:18 well... n would be bounded "to the end of the program" 02:18:37 What I meant is you can't set a default to the maximum size of a loop 02:19:35 There's a string-matching idea in the paper too, for dealing with goto-less loops (which is inherantly what a brace-matching mechanism is) 02:23:04 Im wrestling with whether or not to include my color definition in my esolang. 02:24:27 If I dont, everything is one big topological space. I can use an operator such as # to say "STOP, wrap here" and everything works fine. 02:25:54 mh.. it's suddenly 4 am again.. 02:26:00 better get to bed.. 02:26:05 good "night" 02:26:08 I love when time plays tricks 02:26:13 heh 02:26:17 bye 02:26:19 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 02:26:28 g'night.. look forward to seeing a finished product soon 02:26:33 Well shoot. He left 03:26:13 ASCII is an abomination 03:34:59 Would it be safe to say that Network-Headache doesn't have an implementation? 03:35:19 I dont think it does 03:44:20 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:13:23 anybody still up? 04:19:53 * heatsink is 04:21:36 Feel like looking at a confusing half-written spec for me? 04:29:31 http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/alt_spec.txt 04:48:15 It's worth noting that UTF-8 is compatible with ASCII characters 32-127 04:52:01 I know, that's what I was getting at with Unicode being based on ASCII 04:56:20 I suggest adding, after the "Stack Elements" section, a description of the stack, which is the other datatype for your language. 04:56:42 Also, what happens on an access to an invalid stack location or pop of an empty stack. 04:56:44 Oh, I probably should. The stack is pretty novel, as far as stack-based esolangs are concerns 04:57:36 Oh, balanced ternary, cool 04:58:02 I invented an esoteric non-programming language which had balanced base-6 numbers :) 04:58:21 I didn't know there was a name for it 04:58:42 really? that's gotta be pretty cool. I've been a big fan of balanced ternary. 04:59:01 I even wanted to write a bf varient that used it, called trittyfuck. 04:59:06 LOL 04:59:27 But bf is base-independent 05:00:21 It might be possible if each data cell is a balanced ternary digit 05:03:14 I can't think of a way in which the use of balanced ternary would actually change the behavior of bf. 05:03:23 it really wouldn't 05:03:30 hence my lack of creating a language as such 05:04:03 If you try to pop an element from an empty stack, it pops a null string. I think that's the most esoteric approach. 05:04:25 Except for maybe popping the string "ribbit", which would be pretty crazy too. 05:04:58 It would be more esoteric to make pop-from-empty-stack read from stdin :) 05:05:13 that would be pretty crazy too, you're right 05:05:26 Okay. So the starting state of the stack is an infinite stack of the empty string. 05:05:35 Yes, exactly. 05:07:28 Except that those aren't rotated when the stack is rotated 05:07:47 Oh, I didn't notice the stack rotation functions. 05:08:16 That kinda cuts down the beauty of it. 05:08:20 They rotate the entire stack forward/backward, so it acts as a circularly linked list 05:08:22 Perhaps, yes. 05:09:43 I still think its beautiful though 05:10:58 What does this do? 05:11:06 v{abc}@ 05:11:11 > ^ 05:11:39 enters an infinite loop of pushing a's (10) onto the stack. 05:11:44 ok 05:12:05 how about the single character } 05:12:23 I should probably specify that all sides of the program have an implicit # associated with them. 05:12:41 ok 05:12:47 I've been debating that. Im thinking that { and } should be interchangable, so {abc} is the same as }abc{ 05:13:21 which would be the same as {abc{ and }abc} 05:13:43 If you traverse {abc} backwards, does it push cba? 05:14:11 yes. It should. 05:14:18 I think. I'd rather not have it produce an error 05:14:49 -!- Sgep has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:16:56 If you refresh, you'll see the updated spec that reflects the helpful comments and suggestions that you've given me :-) Thank you 05:18:01 np 05:19:15 Any other suggestions you've got? 05:19:53 I was originally very keen on color spaces, but the string manipulation is a lot more fun and different - like a 2D muriel language :-) 05:20:41 It's not clear to me what happens when a number is interpreted as a string or vice versa 05:21:08 Hmm, okay. That's probably something I need to be more explicit on then 05:22:27 Basically, if you're performing any sort of arithmetic on it, its a number (because it doesnt make sense to add or multiply characters). If you're concatenating, outputting, etc. its a character string. 05:23:07 in other words, its only a string if the command manipulates bytes 05:25:01 But is it a number in ascii base-10 notation, or in binary base-32 notation, or what? 05:25:49 Also, are leading zeros stripped, and are numbers right-justified? 05:26:16 leading zeros are not stripped. The numbers are right-justified however. I commented on the leading zeros portion already 05:26:20 even wrote an example program for removing them. 05:27:18 So, if I subtract 100 from 100 I will get 000. 05:27:25 yes 05:27:38 and it uses the binary representation of the character string 05:28:35 -!- Arrogant has joined. 05:28:46 so "abc" is 97*256^2+98*256+99 05:28:48 okay, so all numbers will print as a sequence of the character # 05:28:55 oh 05:29:06 That's base 256, not base 2 05:29:29 You're right, sorry 05:29:45 the logic functions uses bits though 05:30:22 It makes a difference because unicode doesn't specify the number of bytes a character occupies. 05:30:50 If the internal representation were UTF-32 you might expect a base 2**32 interpretation of numbers. 05:32:02 I mentioned the characters occupying a byte of space, but after reading the paragraph, it is unclear. 05:33:28 Again, this isn't the official spec, just a sort of.. sandbox spec I guess you could say 05:33:41 Looking at how all the pieces fit together before I carve it in stone and write an implementation 05:33:55 Good way to do it. 05:34:26 Anyhow, that's where my desire to remove ASCII from the picture stems. So many ASCII characters are not printable.. I don't see a reason for including them in the language specification. 05:36:11 I think its looking pretty good now. I'll try to polish the spec and see how it looks tomorrow, but I won't have time to write up a spec this week. I've promised my professor that I'd have my research program running by Friday, so I'll be pretty exhausted doing that. 05:37:36 you're doing this for CLASS?! 05:37:52 oh. You're writing a different program for class. 05:38:09 yeah, different (in C) 05:38:13 yea okies :) 05:38:38 I actually thought about doing an esolang for my research, but.. I dont know that the dept. would have let it in 05:38:55 Its more computer science than biomedical engineering 05:39:12 what will your reasearch program do? 05:39:58 run a monte carlo simulation on a 3D piece of tissue 05:40:53 Its for an optical imaging system. I'll need to model the system, then reconstruct the output for a variety of systems 05:42:03 -!- calamari_ has joined. 05:42:26 hey calamari 05:43:14 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:44:32 This system you are modeling -- is this to test the design before building it? 05:45:06 Mostly 05:45:36 There's been some preliminary work to suggest that the system should work fairly well 05:46:13 part of the goal is to be able to use the system model in the design of the tissue. 05:46:46 How do you make tissue? 05:47:01 I don't, and Im not entirely sure how they're doing it either. 05:47:13 I think they're stimulating embryonic stem cells.. 05:47:42 or maybe non-embryonic stem cells 05:52:28 What kidn of tissue are they trying to make? 05:53:45 tendons right now. Future projects might be aimed more at detecting cancerous tissues embedded in other tissues (such as liver) 05:54:37 Cool. What does surgery currently do for severed or damaged tendons? 05:54:43 They use a flourescent marker, which is what we're trying to detect. 05:55:36 I think they try to stretch them to get them to regrow and reconnect 05:55:47 ok 05:56:14 These are pretty much entirely artificial tendons though, which makes me think that the stretching business doesnt work that great. 05:58:09 If tendons could stretch, they wouldn't be very useful. 05:58:59 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:59:08 oh, um bye 06:00:21 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 06:01:34 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 06:06:08 wb 06:07:57 thanks. Firefox errored out on me 06:28:18 anyhow, Im off to bed, thank you very much heatsink!! 06:28:34 okay, night-o 06:28:54 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 06:37:55 * Arrogant is playing with his expandable Brainfuck 06:50:03 -!- heatsink has quit ("Leaving"). 07:37:07 -!- calamari has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:05:22 -!- nooga has joined. 09:05:27 hello 09:12:37 hi nooga 09:16:08 hi calamari 09:29:48 Sup. 09:36:03 http://paragon.pastebin.com/366910 09:37:13 Condensed: {fibo:(~=)->+>+<<[>>%>*<<[->+<]>>%<<*<-]>},{fibo}! 09:39:43 -!- calamari_ has joined. 09:40:41 Hey calamari, net screw up? 09:42:10 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:11:57 hi Arrogant 10:12:11 wasn't really watching.. :) 10:15:58 Pretty useless little hack of a language 10:17:51 which one 10:18:03 http://paragon.pastebin.com/366910 10:18:15 That's the commented version. This is condensed: {fibo:(~=)->+>+<<[>>%>*<<[->+<]>>%<<*<-]>},{fibo}! 10:18:25 Brainfuck + functions and a few other things. 10:18:29 Including copy/paste 10:31:10 stupid 10:36:58 thx 10:36:58 yw 10:39:10 I've gotta practice somehow 10:46:40 -!- jix has joined. 10:50:15 -!- Arrogant has quit (" Want to be different? HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-"). 10:57:10 moin 11:04:36 cool 11:04:44 i can use my editor for befunge development... 11:08:40 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:09:27 bbl.. :) 11:09:30 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 13:14:59 -!- J|x has joined. 13:26:49 -!- kipple has joined. 13:27:33 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:31:07 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 15:07:01 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:07:56 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 15:08:10 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Client Quit). 15:08:20 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:08:31 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:51:23 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 15:55:21 hey ;-) 15:55:56 moin Wildhalcyon 15:56:05 how you doin jix? 15:56:18 hm.. 15:57:50 -!- Sgep has joined. 16:05:31 that good eh? 16:27:27 * Wildhalcyon is proud of his esolang 16:28:29 How come IRC commands seem to be centered around death and kevin kline? 16:34:11 -!- Keymaker has joined. 16:34:43 hi 16:34:48 hey keymaker! 16:34:52 hey 16:35:14 how you been? 16:35:30 well, haven't done much anything 16:35:34 sleeping lol 16:35:40 ok, not all this time :) 16:35:46 reading to exams 16:36:20 but now i'm going to spend a bit on that new language of mine 16:36:30 i have some really nice and perhaps unique ideas 16:36:49 Me too!.. just not about your language 16:36:52 hehe 16:36:54 which Im sure is good, but its yours, not mine 16:37:01 yes 16:37:07 Would you mind reading the updated spec? I've been working on it this morning a lot. 16:37:14 well, ok 16:37:17 link me up! 16:37:45 http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/CRAWL_spec.txt 16:38:03 ok, takes some time.. :) 16:38:30 I understand 16:45:39 nice 16:45:47 gotta be one of the clearest specs i've ever read 16:45:50 good work 16:46:18 Thank you! 16:46:45 yw 16:46:53 (learned that from logs) 16:46:59 (that yw) 16:47:13 Right, fgrom heatsink's help! 16:47:24 He was very good at giving me pointers 16:47:35 ok 16:50:31 Any tips for me? 16:50:51 Aside from the duplicate entry for the character ' (fixed on my local copy) 16:54:03 hmm 16:54:23 nothing comes to my mind(s) at the moment 16:54:37 Alright, smells good to me. 16:54:42 :) 16:55:12 Hmm, I have 14 instructions to work with in my spur-of-the-moment adage derivative 16:56:26 s/adage/udage 16:56:32 it's hard to write good specs.. 16:56:45 my language planning seems to go along the spec writing, this time 16:56:48 It is, because the ideas are clear in YOUR head, not necessarily in someone who's trying to understand 16:56:54 yeah 16:56:55 that's why heatsink's help last night was so valuable. 16:57:03 yeah 16:57:13 this is my fourth plan of the language 16:57:23 i made yesterday four plans for it 16:57:38 although i noticed there was something lethal problem in two of them.. or three x) 16:57:58 yeah? That's no good! 16:58:23 but this current should be fine 16:58:29 and the most clever 16:58:37 That's always the best 16:58:55 yeah 16:59:05 i'm worried about one thing though 16:59:13 the memory model 16:59:20 i think i want this time my language be turing-complete 16:59:27 (just for change ;)) 16:59:38 and not sure if my stack+accumulator system works 16:59:58 naturally i could replace that system by using two stacks 17:00:11 hmmm.. 17:00:36 Hmmm, you don't have any other data storage? 17:01:16 i have currently a stack and an accumulator 17:01:29 accumulator is just a byte 17:01:39 Alright 17:01:41 the stack can be reversed by instruction 17:02:08 that memory model probably isn't turing-complete 17:02:23 experts? whadda say? 17:02:50 Probably not. It doesn't allow random access of the stack 17:03:23 yeah (i guess i understand what you mean) 17:03:47 best would be to use two stacks perhaps 17:03:59 that's been told tc compatible 17:04:03 or something 17:04:27 with proper instructions.. and they being popping, pushing, and changing the stack, and reversing 17:04:31 i think those are fine 17:04:32 Alright, I think I came up with a gnarly n-symbol udage alphabet 17:04:57 I think that might be TC Keymaker, to be honest Im not an expert enough to know 17:05:26 i read it from wikipedia sometime 17:05:52 i hope it is valid info :) 17:06:33 I hope so too 17:08:39 ah yes.. i think i is.. one can use stack memory just like an array if one has two stacks 17:08:50 although it's naturally not as easy >:) 17:09:09 but i don't think i want to use array model always 17:09:18 You can, pop from one push to the other - more like a list than an array 17:09:20 (actually i have never used it..) 17:09:34 dunno what's list 17:09:52 but i just meant one can move it like it were an array 17:10:06 a list is where you only have access to the element and the element's neighbor(s) 17:10:21 hmm 17:10:28 Actually, you CAN keep your stack TC if you have an instruction which pops from one end and pushes to the other 17:10:47 its a TC single stack model which I use in my language 17:11:06 aha. 17:13:15 there are different kinds of (linked) lists 17:13:26 this is a doubly-linked list 17:13:37 Jix is right.. check on wikipedia 17:13:40 lots of 'em 17:13:46 silly buggers, linked lists are 17:14:13 my code executes without throwing exceptions ... maybe it even works! 17:14:39 good luck ;-) 17:15:03 i'm working on my website 17:16:03 what code? 17:16:10 website code? 17:17:17 yes 17:17:26 ok 17:17:29 good lcuk 17:17:31 *luck 17:17:33 thx 17:17:40 :) 17:18:39 why does it return nil 17:19:07 it shouldn't return nil 17:19:19 magic? 17:20:24 i think it's a stupid typo 17:20:31 it's always a stupid type *g* 17:20:39 hehe 17:20:51 * jix searches the ActiveRecord::Base doc 17:21:45 so, would this make TC memory? 17:21:45 3 4 5 a 17:21:45 % 17:21:45 a 3 4 5 17:21:45 ----------------------- 17:21:45 a 3 4 5 17:21:47 # 17:21:49 5 4 3 a 17:21:51 ----------------------- 17:21:53 5 4 3 a 17:21:55 ! 17:21:57 5 4 3 17:21:59 accumulator = a 17:22:01 ----------------------- 17:22:03 5 4 3 17:22:05 ? 17:22:07 5 4 3 a 17:22:09 (accumulator = a) 17:22:42 I think so 17:22:46 typo... 17:23:00 hmm.. 17:23:39 is single queue memory tc? (since that can be done with this) 17:24:08 you can simulate infinite tape with it 17:24:19 you have data values 0 and 1 17:24:28 and a special marker 2 17:24:35 aha 17:24:39 so, it is? 17:24:41 if you move in direction a 17:24:46 you rotate right 17:24:53 in direction b you rotate left 17:25:11 and as soon as you reach 2 you add another 0 before the 2 (extend the tape) 17:25:48 np: Kyuss - Supa Scoopa and Mighty Scoop [ Welcome To Sky Valley ] 17:26:01 this song is cool 17:26:09 hmmm 17:26:19 it works! 17:26:23 just 2 typos ;) 17:26:27 :) 17:27:06 phew.. this freakin' think is HUGE 17:27:14 ? 17:28:52 Shoot. it doesn't match any of the integer sequence database entries 17:29:09 Im enumerating all the possible n-length symbol-independent strings 17:30:01 I might have a typo (I hope not.. 178 length-6 strings!) 17:33:01 grgrghh.. there are too many esolangs to try! 17:33:05 and learn 17:33:13 Whoops. Typo! (in the number of length-4, not a string typo) 17:33:14 and new coming all the time :) keep it up though :) 17:34:01 I found a matching integer sequence! 1 2 5 15 50 178... (next three for lenghts 7,8,9 are 663 2553 and 10086) 17:34:24 I'm trying. This will be my second real esolang, as opposed to the ones in my head 17:38:07 hmmmm.. 17:40:38 Im not sure how that integer sequence (which deals with anti-chains in "rooted trees" ?) relates to the symbol problem though 17:44:02 Your language looks nice and... terse ;-) 17:44:11 wjpese? 17:44:15 *shoes? 17:44:18 *whose 17:44:37 yours, keymaker 17:44:43 what language? 17:44:48 the one i'm designing currently? 17:44:54 yes 17:44:58 cheers 17:45:06 what else have you designed? Because I have a short attention span and dont remember 17:45:13 trigger (partly) 17:45:16 and unnecessary 17:45:48 http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/trigger/trigger.html 17:46:00 Oh, that's right, trigger 17:46:05 i should update the page with couple of programs.. 17:46:32 one of them doesn't work yet and i should rewrite because i'm too lazy to search for the bug.. when i got time to do that i'll update the site 17:46:41 That would be nice, some examples 17:47:55 there are three currently 17:48:32 jix: on trigger's site i have new version of 99bob.. it's been there for a while, though 17:49:04 just thought you might want to see it if you haven't.. 17:49:52 Is there already a programming language called Lingua? 17:50:08 hmm hgavent'ghearhif 17:50:09 not according to google 17:50:17 *hmmm haven't heard of 17:50:24 Hmm, its either Lingua or Glypho 17:50:32 Which do you guys like better? 17:50:36 hmm 17:50:42 both are good 17:50:47 probably glypho 17:51:00 yes 17:51:09 Glypho 17:51:38 Alright 17:51:48 I like Glypho too 17:52:19 The instructions are encoded in a length-n string of symbols (not necessarily characters) 17:52:49 my best 99bob is stil my subskin version 17:52:50 http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-subskin-868.html 17:52:57 but still only 2 votes :( 17:53:01 Glypho takes the first symbol and calls it "a", then it looks at the next symbol, which can either be "a" or something other than "a", which it calls "b" 17:53:54 yeah, it deserves more! too bad i gave my vote already ;) 17:54:18 I voted jix 17:54:22 You're lucky I didnt vote already 17:54:32 Wildhalcyon: thanks 17:54:47 Anytime buddy ;-) 17:54:54 oh 17:55:06 If Glypho ever gets an implementation running, I'll write a 99bob program and post it up too 17:55:08 so this glypho isn't the same than the other language you're working? 17:55:33 Nope, COMPLETELY different 17:55:36 aaah 17:55:41 and it sounds very good 17:55:48 The other language is called.. not sure yet. Its a bit more serious (I'm writing a rogue-like RPG in it) 17:55:57 aha 17:56:21 i love languages that do stuff with strings and patterns (like thue (and trigger)) 17:56:23 So, the possible length-3 Glypho strings are: aaa aab aba abb abc 17:57:08 not sure but isn't the number of length-n glypho string n! 17:57:48 not that I can see, although it might be related to the factorial function in some manner I can't conceive of 17:58:13 I haven't written a formula for length-n glypho strings yet 17:59:45 ah no.. i'm wrong 18:00:08 Its kind of fun seeing how the enumerations work out 18:01:51 enumerations? what are them? 18:02:05 Enumerations are just counting 18:05:05 Im trying to design a tree structure out of it, but its difficult 18:08:15 http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/glypho.txt 18:09:49 i guess i'm now doing fifth draft.. 18:10:03 better n simpler 18:10:10 Jix, you could use a 3-symbol string to encode bf instruction minimalization since it only has 5 instructions 18:10:15 Why a 5th? what was wrong with the 4th? 18:10:20 nothing 18:10:23 but i invented new way 18:10:33 Oh, alrighty 18:10:34 or change one concept, so to speak 18:11:21 For the main version of glypho, Im using length-4 strings, that gives me 15 instructions 18:11:57 I'd like at least 1 NOP (aaaa - at least) so I have 14 "real" instructions to work with 18:16:03 I haven't quite figured out a way to.. y'know.. encode numbers in the symbols. I'll have to work on that 18:19:54 well, i must go.. 18:20:13 i probably won't be back until next wednesday.. important exam stuff that day.. 18:20:34 good luck! 18:20:38 on wednesday i'm free for a while, though, and have some more spare time :) 18:20:38 talk to you later keymaker 18:20:43 cheers :) 18:20:44 yeah 18:20:49 good luck with esolangs 18:20:52 thank you 18:21:00 i'll try to get this thing ready by wednesday 18:21:06 bye 18:21:09 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 19:00:14 Arggggghhh, I have room for one more instruction... 19:00:51 hmm, and I DO need one more instruction. 19:00:54 * Wildhalcyon ponders for a moment 19:18:41 I could make it push 0 onto the stack, perform integer division/modulus... 19:19:16 I could make it unefungeoid and reverse program flow 20:10:09 i can use my website code for static pages now! 20:10:36 woohoo! 20:10:52 and i hope it's faster in production mode with fcgi and lighttpd than in development mode with webrick 20:12:38 wow it's only 597 lines and i think 30% are auto-generated by rails 20:13:11 oh wait i didn't counted the .rhtml files (templates) 20:14:39 Ive almost got the glypho spec done 20:15:34 660 with html templates 20:15:41 rhtml? never heard of it 20:16:12 it's the extension of erb files... that ruby embedded in html 20:16:22 it's like php's 20:16:29 but it's <% ruby_code %> 20:17:02 rails views are written using erb .rhtml files 20:17:24 ohhh, alright 20:17:34 ruby on rails.. Ive heard of that 20:19:57 0 ops, 326 total... never saw that anywhere except here at freenode 20:20:15 what do you mean? 20:20:33 an irc channel with 326 users and 0 ops 20:20:51 ... what's an op? 20:20:59 on op can kick or ban users 20:21:08 I only chat on this channel, so I'm not really familiar with them 20:21:15 *please dont ban me* 20:26:17 ok next controller... menu 20:26:55 Can you look at the glypho spec and tell me if you think its TC? 20:27:13 http://www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/glypho.txt 20:29:14 not sure 20:29:17 but i think it is 20:29:46 I think so too, but its sort of hard to be certain I guess 20:30:31 I KNOW it would be TC if I changed negate and multiply to be increment/decrement - it would look a lot like BUB (a TC bf varient) 20:31:28 you get inc by abba abbb 20:31:33 and dec by abba abbc 20:32:06 alright! TC, here we come 20:32:25 Do you think I should include the multiply and reverse flow operators? 20:32:28 the big question is if the memory is random accessible enough 20:32:49 There's a typo in the spec - abcb should be "r" not "?" 20:33:05 It should be kipple - you can rotate the circular stack forward and backwards as much as you like 20:33:22 what's the difference between rotate and reverse-rotate? 20:33:52 rotate: {a b c d -- d a b c} reverse-rotate: {a b c d -- b c d a} 20:34:29 the stack consists of? 20:34:34 bignums? 20:34:36 integers? 20:34:54 I haven't decided yet ;-) 20:35:01 hmm 20:35:08 probably fixed-width integers 20:35:10 conditional looping is a bit difficult 20:35:11 maybe 32-bit 20:35:18 how so? 20:35:30 you don't have a test operator 20:35:46 You're right.. hmm 20:35:57 I may have to nix multiplication then 20:36:02 or duplication 20:36:05 what does reverse do? reverse the IP? 20:36:10 a test operator that checks if the upper stack value is greater than the 2nd and pushes 1 or 0 20:36:15 yes kipple 20:36:20 and do not remove multiplication 20:36:36 that's needed for conditional looping 20:36:44 it is? 20:36:48 because you can multiply the relative adress with the test result 20:36:57 Oh, good point 20:37:01 1 does skip 0 doesn't 20:37:36 maybe remove q and say outputting a value > 255 terminates 20:38:25 What if it terminates if it ever skips to a negative instruction reference? 20:38:50 Ah, I get the rotates now. I though you actually rotated the entire stack, but you just push/pop between the top and bottom elements 20:38:52 skip can take a negative number 20:39:00 yes 20:39:01 Exactly kipple 20:39:03 that's possible too 20:39:48 Well, I think I get bonus points for being obfuscated 20:39:49 well, then I agree that the memory should be sufficient for TC 20:40:11 as long as the stack is unbounded 20:40:45 As far as the language spec is concerned, it is. Obviously, implementations will have bounded-storage 20:41:49 I think it should be pretty trivial to implement brainfuck in this lang 20:42:00 probably 20:42:10 IF you include a conditional operator that is :) 20:42:28 I like jix's test operator so far... 20:43:10 how about pushing the difference between the top two elements instead of just 0 and 1? 20:43:18 11-+ produces 0 on the stack, so does 11t (where t is jix's test operator) 20:43:27 makes conditional looping difficult kipple 20:43:42 t is just a greater-than test, right Jix? 20:43:46 yes 20:44:17 Alright, then I think we're okay 20:44:18 using negation and swap you can make < > <= and >= 20:44:35 good deal 20:44:48 so, which operator has to go to make room for test? 20:44:57 q (quit) 20:45:01 is NOP really needed? 20:45:04 I like having DUP in there 20:45:12 NOP really isn't, I suppose 20:45:22 but neither is reversing the program flow 20:45:33 true 20:45:33 but reversing program flow is cool 20:45:38 I thought so too :-D 20:45:59 I agree that q to is not very important 20:47:08 I suppose it could quit if it tried to access an instruction too far forward too - skip-to-end for instance 20:47:40 why not just quit when the end of code is reached? like most langs 20:48:01 That's basically what I was trying to say just now 20:48:17 hmm. you're right :) 20:48:32 except that since skip can take negative jump values (in order to actually loop), I need to have it do SOMETHING for negative instructions 20:48:36 that something is quit 20:50:00 how is the source code supposed to look? are the syntax for comments? is whitespace instructions or ignored? 20:50:23 no comments, unfortunately. 20:50:34 i.e. is CRCRCRLF just whitespace, or an i operator? 20:51:03 Source code is defined (arbitrarily) as a set of symbols - minimum of 4. 20:51:14 The implementation can define what a symbol is or is not. 20:51:18 ok 20:51:26 then it is nice to have a NOP :) 20:51:44 though nice may not be what you're aiming for here... 20:52:27 For instance, I could make an interpreter in which any BF commands are considered "symbols" while any other ASCII characters are ignored 20:52:45 hehe 20:52:48 image! 20:52:49 Im not aiming for "nice", Im aiming for interesting. 20:53:03 jix: huh? 20:53:09 use an image for storing symbols 20:53:09 images should work too, yes. 20:53:47 and a good code + any image => code-image would be possible 20:54:05 should be, yeah. 20:54:30 I wanted to use aaaa as NOP because same-symbols sets are common and boring 20:55:02 what about saying the stack items have to be 32-or-larger bit signed integers 20:55:20 That's not a bad stipulation 20:58:11 agreed. (incidentally that's exactly what I have put in the update of the Kipple spec) 21:00:00 i'm going to implement it now 21:00:35 Are you going to use that symbol->instruction table 21:01:39 yes 21:02:02 Hmmm, okay. I guess it'll be set in stone now then. 21:02:43 Im happy with it :-) 21:03:06 btw, I don't understand why you can't have instructions like cbaa etc... 21:03:37 never mind 21:03:39 Each instruction resets the symbol definitions 21:03:40 I get it now 21:03:42 okay 21:03:51 it's just a bit alien this conecept :) 21:04:01 (that is a good thing by the way) 21:04:10 def get_instruction(string);string.tr(string.reverse,"dcba");end 21:04:11 Im basing this off of Udage, it's GOING to be alien to everyone 21:04:23 converts a 4 byte string to a "aaba" like string 21:04:25 whats that jix? 21:04:30 oh, ok 21:04:31 ruby code 21:05:04 Are you doing the bf-instruction == symbol, other ASCII == comment idea, or something else? 21:05:17 anyway, I take back my previous statement that a BF interpreter would be 'trivial'! 21:05:25 lol, maybe you should... 21:05:40 no i'm doing the straight ascii => glypho conversion 21:05:44 without comments 21:05:59 Nice and obfuscated then 21:09:09 Its got a fairly novel instruction set too, gives it its own... flavor? 21:10:30 abca abcb << is wrong 21:10:43 abac not abca 21:11:40 ack, you're right it is wrong! 21:11:56 if i pop from the empty steck.. 0 or error? 21:11:59 and Ive included it twice! 21:12:00 I think a shorthand notation-to-glypho converter will be essential to any programmer :) 21:12:09 Probably error I think jix 21:12:13 good 21:12:15 it might be kipple 21:12:18 makes implementation easier 21:12:42 kipple: but it won't work with reverse mode 21:12:56 why not jix? 21:13:07 depends on how reverse mode works 21:13:21 does it work on symbol level or instruction level? 21:13:30 The instruction set will have to be rearranged and changed to work at the symbol level adequately 21:13:56 Im working on a set of reversible instructions (increment and decrement come into play) - but this was before Jix pointed out the lack of a test operator 21:15:23 If you refresh the file, I think I fixed the abca abcb problem (replaced it with abac abcb) 21:17:27 does test pop? 21:17:51 the documentation says no 21:18:02 Hmmm, should it? 21:19:33 i don't know 21:19:37 i think it shouldn't 21:19:52 it's just a matter of taste, I think. Both should work 21:20:21 It depends on what you're going to use more - if you want to keep and use the value often, then dont pop, if you're not going to use it much after the test pop is better 21:20:34 exactly 21:20:50 i implemented don't pop 21:21:21 I'll rewrite the spec in a bit to make that more clear 21:21:44 1d+d+d+1d++ is 10 right? 21:21:55 if all the other instructions causes a pop you might want to pop just for consitency 21:22:07 kipple: it's an esolang 21:22:21 no need for consistency *g* 21:22:47 I did say *might*... :) 21:22:53 touche 21:23:16 aabb ..... t 21:23:19 should be d instead of t 21:23:25 ah 21:24:17 It is d 21:24:25 Im sorry, that was a temporary error - its fixed now 21:24:37 back when I was debating between eliminating d and q. 21:27:39 interpreter done (in ruby) 21:27:51 an I right that when you reverse symbol flow with r you get a completely different set of instructions as the 4 symbols are read backwards? 21:28:25 That's the question now, isn't it? 21:28:53 I think right now, it just reverses instruction flow 21:28:57 i implemented reversed instructions 21:29:10 but it's easy to change it back 21:29:11 like unefunge (1D befunge) 21:29:23 ok i'll change it to act like it 21:29:31 Well, if I ever implement rGlypho (reversible glypho) 21:29:48 I'll probably have it reverse the entire set of symbols. 21:30:17 if reverse is on symbol level, then it would be nice to have "opposite" instructions being exactly opposite. 21:30:29 i.e. < is abaa and > is aaba 21:30:47 Exactly 21:31:03 though there might not be too many such pais 21:31:05 pairs 21:31:11 this is a working example for printing "\n" 011000110111001101110011011101100011011101110010 21:31:27 there are 4 instruction pairs, 7 "non-reversing" instructions 21:31:48 is that binary ascii? 21:31:54 no 21:31:57 it's ascii 21:32:03 but i only needed a and b 21:32:07 bbl 21:32:18 and i decided to use 1 and 0 for it 21:32:26 one could write everything wiht 1 I i and | 21:33:59 a and b are the primary symbols, c and d are used a lot less 21:34:21 0OoQ would work too 21:34:34 using 0 and O as primary symbols 21:34:35 you're evil 21:34:52 Well, not really 21:34:58 because QQQQ is still an NOP 21:35:17 it just depends on how obfuscated you want your code to look 21:35:23 np: Metallica - Am I Evil (bonus track) [ Kill 'Em All ] 21:35:25 hrhr 21:36:11 am i evil -- yes i am 21:36:37 lol 21:37:48 How hard would it be for you to rearrange the symbol->instruction table in your program? 21:40:12 pretty easy 21:40:28 Okay 21:40:50 I've rearranged them to "vaguely" reflect the symmetry in some of the instructions 21:41:41 ah 21:41:57 Is that really annoying, or is that okay? 21:42:51 it's ok 21:45:08 ok changed it 21:45:41 http://www.harderweb.de/jix/glypho.rb 21:47:20 and it can use any arbitrary symbols? 21:47:27 yes 21:48:54 Sweet, man.. ruby is terse. 21:49:02 it's not clean ruby code 21:49:28 the first 2 lines are.. ugh 21:50:50 who cares about clean. It looks great! 21:50:56 I'll maybe have to try it out a lil;' 21:50:57 lil' 21:52:05 g'night 21:52:12 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:53:06 I guess I'll have to work out a hello world example 21:54:05 I wonder if his implementation ignores whitespace. I doubt it... 21:54:21 -!- grim_ has joined. 21:54:28 lo all 21:54:34 hey grim 21:57:37 yo 21:57:56 seems like my connection problems have sorted themselves out 21:58:04 Sounds good buddy ;-) 22:01:10 * grim_ shrugs 22:01:41 Im having trouble writing hello world 22:06:19 I think I've got it printing "Hello" 22:08:55 what's the language? 22:09:04 Glypho 22:09:15 * grim_ must have missed that one 22:09:26 Im having trouble writing a freakin' loop! 22:09:36 I wrote it today. Just posted it to the wiki a bit ago 22:09:43 Jix wrote a ruby interpreter 22:11:06 Im not really sure if its turing complete 22:13:42 -!- Arrogant has joined. 22:14:01 hmmm 22:14:12 looks like it should be 22:14:21 I want to think so 22:14:26 but that jump instruction is a horror 22:14:35 Im noticing :-/ 22:15:50 so you want to test positive, multiply by n+c, negate, then skip 22:16:04 I think so 22:16:09 but Im really not sure! 22:16:12 * Wildhalcyon cries 22:16:41 there there ;) 22:17:07 Im trying to think of a way to write a loop that outputs elements until it reaches a 0 22:18:29 Easy 22:18:36 (In a normal language) 22:18:46 Hmmm, I think Ive got it... 22:18:46 What are you using? 22:18:56 Glypho, my brand new state of the art headache language 22:19:21 Whoa.. I think I wrote the loop: 22:19:25 <11-+\t1d+d*d**-s 22:19:37 (in shorthand notation) 22:20:13 putting arbitrary numbers on the stack isn't easy eh? 22:20:35 Its not, but it could be worse. This isn't bf 22:21:03 Here's the latest sample from my BF extension 22:21:10 {sub:>*<[->-<]>}+++++++++++++++%>+++++{sub}! 22:22:07 that moves to the next element, tests if its greater than 0, if it is (and gets a 1 on the stack), it multiplies 1 by -16 and skips 16 instructions back, conveniently to the start of the loop 22:22:16 except that I forgot to output the character! 22:22:27 heh 22:22:31 close then 22:22:49 That seems ... difficult. 22:22:52 Not too hard 22:23:13 I can fix it... 22:24:18 won't be easy to prove turing complete 22:25:19 an arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point isn't straightforward 22:25:35 Hmm, you may be write 22:25:37 :-( 22:25:45 s/write/right/ 22:26:17 but it still feels like it should be... 22:26:20 I'll be quite upset if it ISNT TC 22:26:27 the stack manipulation is at least, I know that 22:29:55 -!- Arrogant has quit (" Like VS.net's GUI? Then try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-"). 22:29:56 brb, gonna grab a snack and think about this... 22:33:48 Alright, Im really not liking this looping behavior 22:35:22 If I change the skip and test instructions to be matching braces (like bf) then its much easier 22:39:11 easy isn't everything 22:39:29 make it too easy and it's no fun 22:40:01 True, but I think the language offers enough *unique* challenges to still be difficult to program in 22:40:17 you would know ;) 22:40:53 especially considering aaaabbbbccccdddd is 4 NOP instructions while ababcdcdefefgigi is four dup operations in the SAME program 22:41:26 mneme is at the other end of the spectrum, the instruction set is too easy and it's too easy to seperate code from data 22:41:40 so it's not fun yet 22:42:32 whereas glypho looks like a hair-puller 22:43:20 It really, REALLY is. 22:43:29 In order to put a 0 on the stack, you have to type 11-+ 22:43:58 or rather aabcaabcabcbabac 22:44:13 which could easily be 1123112312321213 22:44:13 yes, that is a bit nuts 22:44:45 funny though ;) 22:44:50 so if *maybe* I change my loops to be slightly.. conventional... I think I deserve at least a bit of slack... 22:46:59 loops are self-referential in construction, that is nasty 22:46:59 Anyhow, I guess I'll have to let jix know later, since his interpreter doesn't support "easy" looping 22:47:31 the number you have to create in the loop changes the pattern of the loop code 22:47:31 I think we need a new language category for the wiki for these pattern-based langs 22:47:54 exactly 22:48:05 and hence changes the number you have to make in the loop! 22:48:15 that's blinding XD 22:48:15 Okay, so here's "Hello" in Glypho shorthand: 1d+d*dddd**++d1d+d*d*1d+*111++-++d1d+dd**1-++dd111+++11-+<[o<]! 22:48:36 hrm, 'blinding' indeed.. maybe i should fix my hilight 22:48:49 Do you see why I was crying grim? 22:49:13 yes, I think it's hilarious, but it's got definite implications for TCness 22:49:34 I think so too, hence my decision to use the BF-style braces 22:50:26 man.. I hope that code doesn't have any typos in it 22:50:48 it's a fair call, have to see how it works out 22:51:19 I've got to go anyway 22:51:28 thanks for your input 22:51:44 any time 22:52:11 bye all 22:52:20 -!- grim_ has left (?). 22:55:02 I'll try to have a C/C++ implemenmtation later tonight 23:10:28 n00b's (read:my) attempt to design something: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Sgeo/binbf 23:11:50 What is NYT? 23:12:00 And take a look at Spoon before you get too far 23:12:50 AFAIK, Spoon doesn't have RLE 23:13:33 No, it sure doesnt 23:13:49 "We need some general and straightforward method to transmit symbols which are not yet transmitted (NYT)" --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptive_Huffman_coding 23:14:52 Ah, okay 23:17:42 Oh, and incidentally, it's not designed to be coded in directly, although that is possible 23:19:32 haha, neither is glypho 23:19:44 Actually, Glypho isnt really designed to be coded in period 23:19:50 but I think thats fairly common among esolangs 23:36:14 Hmmm, its amazing how NICE those braces make everything 23:36:31 I don't think the Glypho would be TC without [ and ] 23:55:07 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:55:47 -!- cmeme has joined. 2005-09-19: 00:05:45 Glypho Fibonacci number generator: 11#[>>d+<\<1-+] (Where # is a stack element that is set to the number of terms to generate) 01:01:52 -!- Sgep has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:05:56 -!- Sgep has joined. 01:31:23 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:32:18 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 03:29:28 -!- Arrogant has joined. 03:34:40 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:38:48 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 04:06:46 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 04:14:51 Be back tomorrow 04:15:27 -!- Sgep has quit. 04:35:55 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:46:17 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 05:51:30 -!- CXI has joined. 07:15:21 -!- Aardappel has joined. 07:15:37 * Aardappel tickles cpressey 07:16:49 Adding a stack to this thing was a great success 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:35:29 -!- Arrogant has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- IRC with a difference"). 10:29:56 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:30:11 -!- CXI has joined. 11:40:40 -!- grim__ has joined. 11:48:46 -!- ChanServ has quit (Shutting Down). 11:51:09 -!- ChanServ has joined. 11:51:09 -!- irc.freenode.net has set channel mode: +o ChanServ. 11:53:36 -!- grim__ has changed nick to grim_. 12:00:09 -!- grim_ has left (?). 13:22:50 -!- jix has joined. 13:23:06 moin! 13:25:10 np: Kyuss - Supa Scoopa and Mighty Scoop [ Welcome To Sky Valley ] 13:39:04 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 14:08:55 -!- jix has joined. 14:11:05 -!- kipple has joined. 14:28:42 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:37:15 -!- ihope has joined. 15:39:41 There, I just executed an IRP instruction: NOP 15:48:27 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 15:49:15 hey all 16:20:07 -!- grim_ has joined. 16:35:54 mornin' grim 16:39:50 wotcha 16:48:45 nada 17:08:56 -!- jix has joined. 17:09:21 moin 17:09:23 again 17:11:09 moin! 17:11:21 Im sorry Jix :-( 17:12:32 The previous incarnation of Glypho was too tarpit for me, Ive had to make some changes. I might be making some additional ones soon as well. 17:18:27 wh: which one are you talking about? 17:18:35 the [...] braces one? 17:18:43 or the one before? 17:18:49 the [] one 17:18:53 hehehe 17:19:05 Yeah, grim understands me 17:19:57 I've thought about modifying the arithmetic to be more "brainfuckish" - push-1 becomes push-0, add becomes increment, negate becomes decrement.. and multiply disappears (leaving me with an additional instruction) 17:20:16 :( 17:20:23 that's too brainfuckish imo 17:20:24 why? 17:20:48 that was a response to WildHalcyon, not jix, btw 17:20:52 You're right, but it makes numbers easier 17:21:07 well... 17:21:20 It also makes more sense from the point of view of the "push" function - pushing an empty cell, ready to accept input 17:21:32 Wildhalcyon: no you can create every number in the form 2^a+2^b+2^c => 1d+d+d+...1d+d+d+...1d+d+d+..+++... 17:22:44 I suppose that is easier than the BF "add til' you get there" number functions 17:23:07 Jix, did you read about the reasoning behind adding the brackets? 17:23:51 I think the brackets are good. The main brainburner will be having only a stack anyways 17:24:01 you can already do bf-ish 111111+++++ 17:24:02 Plus, I like how pushing 0 becomes: 11-+ 17:25:42 I think you can also perform BF multiplication by doing 111++-1>[<11++>1+] which should multiply 2*3? 17:26:46 yes, where is the problem? 17:27:24 I don't know, really. Im being wishy-washy I suppose. Glypho is good, I am happy with its creation 17:27:49 Next step is to create a program that takes glypho "shorthand" and converts it to a symbol string 17:28:22 preferably not just a static aabbabbaabcaabab etc. but one that used multiple symbols from an alphabetic set 17:29:26 true 17:29:34 shouldn't be hard either 17:29:51 but I've work to do :( 17:29:56 btwm shouldn't the [ and ] patterns be opposites? 17:30:06 not really, not with a decent PRNG, and I have work to do this week too 17:30:13 probably kipple 17:30:35 I only swapped out "skip" and "test" with "[" and "]" 17:31:43 -!- J|x has joined. 17:36:38 Kipple, I fixed it 17:37:20 and I've written a few example functions - fibonacci and cat 17:39:03 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 17:39:05 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 17:39:24 cat is nice and short :) 17:39:36 and aside from swapping symbols with bf, its identical 17:40:42 what happens if you start a program with a [ ? 17:40:50 is that an error? 17:41:11 if it pops.. yes 17:41:31 how does [ work exactly ? 17:41:31 [ doesn't pop, I think. only peek 17:41:47 ok.. if it peeks a negative value does it loop forever? 17:41:59 but what happens when you pop or peek at an empty stack? 17:42:09 error 17:45:52 popping an empty stack is no good 17:45:56 Don't do it 17:46:22 hehe. sure. just couldn't find anything about it in the spec... 17:46:55 ah. found it. but it says it is NOT an error 17:47:18 Oh, well.. see? 17:47:20 jix: "popping from an empty stack is a NOP" 17:47:21 Very ambiguous 17:47:46 * Wildhalcyon was unfortunately tired and ambiguous last night during the creation of Glypho 17:48:21 now that you have an instruction that peeks, it is even more unclear :D 17:49:19 I know :-( 17:49:50 the simple solution is of course to invoke the old "undefined behavior" 17:50:59 ah... ambiguous behavior wrapped inside a wonderful ambiguous statement 17:52:20 -!- J|x has joined. 17:53:53 "Any actions which pop or otherwise manipulate the stack while it is empty have an undefined behavior and should be frowned upon at all times" 17:53:58 How's that sound? 17:54:09 that's nice :) 17:54:56 I wonder how trivial it is to prove that this language is TC... 17:55:35 hmm. manipulating the stack would include pushing... and you'll want to push to an ampty stack ;) 17:55:52 Wildhalcyon: relatively trivial, just show that you can emulate a turing machine 17:56:19 good point kipple, pushing is important 17:57:37 That's what I thought lindi. I think I can emulate one, I just have to demonstrate it. I've proved it can loop, I guess I should prove it can have an arbitrary-length tape 17:58:54 Wildhalcyon: that's actually depends on how you define turing completeness. if you absolutely require infinite tape then very few languages support that 17:59:23 Well, TC never said inifinite tape - just long enough to do whatever job you wanted to do with it. 17:59:41 i thought it said infinite tape, wait a sec. i'll check 17:59:41 strictly speaking TC requires an infinite tape 17:59:59 I think the definition of a Turing machine includes an infinite tape 18:00:04 I was under the assumption that TC just required a tape that could be ANY length 18:00:19 indeed. in computability theory sense 18:00:22 but the stack in Glyph is infinite, so I don't think that's a problem 18:00:36 "While such machines may be physically impossible as they require unlimited storage, Turing completeness is often loosely attributed to physical machines or programming languages that would be universal if they had indefinitely enlargeable storage. " 18:00:43 in fact, any task which REQUIRES infinite tape is not computable on a turing machine 18:00:43 kipple: stack isn't a tape 18:00:49 I know 18:01:08 lindi, my stack can be modeled as a piece of tape with the ends tied together 18:01:08 so, you can still make it "loosely TC" 18:01:18 that's not stack anymore then 18:01:34 Well then, no. Its not a stack. Its a circular linked list 18:01:42 yep 18:01:48 But pushing and popping are done on a stack-like basis 18:01:51 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:02:05 Wildhalcyon: is the spec online somewhere? 18:02:14 The fact that sometimes it enqueues its head onto its tail is... crazy 18:02:23 www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/glypho.txt 18:02:59 I think I'll nickname the stack-list monstrosity as "ouroborous" (sp?) since it eats its own tail 18:05:03 Some people Ive shown it to have trouble understanding how the symbols within the instructions work. I've had trouble explaining it. 18:05:39 I can imagine 18:05:48 what have they found difficult? the whole context-free wxyz thing? 18:06:00 I had some troubles with it myself at first :) 18:06:21 Mostly the fact that the "a" for instruction 1 does not necessarily equal the "a" for any other instruction 18:06:37 right, sure 18:06:52 you might want to use other symbols than letters 18:07:03 though I'm not sure which 18:07:10 Wildhalcyon: in fact, i'm not sure if glypho is tc or not 18:07:21 why not lindi? 18:07:49 i'm just unsure :) 18:08:00 I can understand that I guess. 18:08:38 We'll find out. I'll work on trying to implement bf instructions in it 18:09:25 it seems to me that you can get TC-ness with a couple of bits of string and some PVA glue these days 18:10:06 tell me about it grim. I'll be pretty peeved if wang tiles can out-TC my glypho language 18:45:49 -!- pgimeno has changed nick to pg_coche. 18:47:17 Hmm, I can't find the sequence {1,2,5,15,50...} in the integer sequence database 18:47:58 Although its possible I counted wrong on n=6 :-( 18:57:50 -!- ihope has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 19:10:34 Found it - I did count wrong 19:11:14 "Word structures of length n using a 6-ary alphabet. Permuting the alphabet will not change a word structure. Thus aabc and bbca have the same structure." 19:12:24 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 19:12:45 are you having an identity crisis today jix? ;) 19:13:54 no... a bad network connection 19:16:01 -!- pg_coche has changed nick to pgimeno. 20:19:50 * jix is going to continue coding his homepage 20:26:15 np: Metallica - Am I Evil (bonus track) [ Kill 'Em All ] 20:30:00 am i evil -- yes i am .. 20:42:04 np: Metallica - Anesthesia (Pulling Teeth) [ Kill 'Em All ] 20:52:31 gotta go to work, be back in a few... 20:53:49 hmm. is there an esolang based on pirate lingo? http://ldc.upenn.edu/myl/llog/piratekeyboard.jpg 20:54:09 LOL 21:17:38 gn8 21:17:38 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:38:43 -!- Aardappel has quit ("http://strlen.com/"). 22:18:19 -!- Sgep has joined. 22:37:53 lo all 22:38:14 18:35 < Wildhalcyon> Hmm, I can't find the sequence {1,2,5,15,50...} in the integer sequence database 22:38:29 there's an integer sequence database? 22:43:18 Any comments on http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Sgeo/binbf 22:45:30 * Sgep goes to clarify something 22:53:05 Any comments/ 22:56:24 not from me 22:58:33 do you have an implementation? 22:59:30 No 23:12:24 * Sgep might write an implementation right up to the point before the Huffman encoding is actually done 23:12:29 Not now though 2005-09-20: 00:19:40 Bye all 00:26:11 -!- Sgep has quit. 03:02:30 -!- puzzlet has quit (Client Quit). 03:03:07 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:10:11 grim: There IS an online integer sequence database. You'll commonly (if you look at mathematical sequences often) find references to "Sloane's Sequence" with a label A followed by a number. 03:10:16 check out: http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/ 03:12:39 The sequence for "Word structures of length n using an n-ary alphabet" is given by the Bell number sequence http://www.research.att.com/cgi-bin/access.cgi/as/njas/sequences/eisA.cgi?Anum=A000110 03:13:22 It's also the number of possible rhyming schemes for an n-line poem 03:26:18 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:28:05 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 03:31:07 Check out the wiki entry on the sequence database: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-Line_Encyclopedia_of_Integer_Sequences 03:31:19 The database provides some good sequences that could be generated as proof-of-concept in esolangs too 03:35:43 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:36:51 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 03:37:02 that's a nice link :) 03:37:08 Which link? 03:37:15 the sequence database 03:37:35 I have a friend who's a pirate. I showed him that keyboard - he complained that it didn't look very ergonomic, but the easy-to-find pirate-keys were a big plus 03:37:45 Yeah, its one of those "glad the internet is around for this" type things 03:38:06 yes, the pirate keyboard could be designed better 03:38:19 the keys are too small and too close to each other for people with hooks 03:39:57 Good point! 03:43:25 -!- Sgep has joined. 04:14:00 * Wildhalcyon is very distracted with the integer sequence database right now, learning about Glypho sequences 04:24:52 -!- Arrogant has joined. 04:33:08 Glypho? 04:34:53 my esolang 04:35:15 no working implementation yet (the one posted on the wiki is incorrect - which is my fault, not Jix's) 04:36:45 Which wiki is this 04:37:30 the esolang wiki 04:37:39 as far as I know, there's nothing posted at wikipedia 04:40:15 Arrogant: the number one esoteric resource: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ 04:40:38 Awesome. 04:40:55 And I'm free to post my WIP? 04:41:02 WIP? 04:41:10 Work in progress 04:42:23 there has been some debate on the works in progress. see http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Talk:Works_in_progress 04:43:10 I'd say please do! 04:43:45 Im down with it too - in fact, I have a WIP that I posted there (which is not Glypho, although until I get an implementation, Glypho should be viewed as a WIP too... but the syntax is finalized finally!!!) 04:44:31 My specification is done and there's a complete Python implementation 04:44:57 well, then don't post it under Works in progress. put it in the proper language list! 04:44:59 I'm just working on a "standard library" 04:45:19 I suppose I should 04:45:25 yes 04:45:28 I should come up with a better name though 04:45:31 It was originally Brainfunk 04:45:37 Because it was Brainfuck with functions 04:45:38 hehe 04:45:40 But now it's so much more 04:45:53 what else have you added? 04:45:55 It's got scopes 04:46:02 For independent memory arrays/pointers 04:46:12 As well as operators for walking up and down a scope tree 04:46:16 And a stack. 04:48:55 gotta get some sleep. night all 04:49:01 I think it's somewhat respectable 04:49:02 Night kipple 04:49:57 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:50:20 I had trouble coming up with a good language name myself 04:52:05 Here's my standard lib so far 04:52:06 http://paragon.pastebin.com/368704 04:54:44 ascii.bf is just the ascii code for the characters then? 04:54:48 Right. 04:54:51 got it 04:54:54 Pushes characters onto the stack. 04:55:22 whats the 'n' at the beginning? 04:55:24 {H}{e}{l}{l}{o}{COMMA}{SPACE}{w}{o}{r}{l}{d}{EXCLAM}{reverse}{print} 04:55:39 (n instructions) is the new scope operator 04:55:53 Creates a new scope before executing those instructions 04:55:58 scope? 04:56:07 Independent memory array and pointer 04:56:42 Scopes have a parent scope too 04:56:45 Which is the calling scope. 04:56:54 Alright, so every time you write (n stuff n' junk) you get a new memory array.. err.. stack? 04:57:06 So you can use (u code) for executing in the parent scope 04:57:07 No 04:57:11 Just memory array 04:57:12 It has both 04:57:19 Do you have a spec I can look at? 04:57:20 I need to write a spec 04:57:23 to make sense of this? lol 04:57:32 The language changes wildly 04:57:46 I came up with new ideas when I was writing it 04:57:52 I understand - I went from having a 'skip' function to bf-like brackets last night, it was MADNESS! 04:59:01 I've thought up a pretty nice bf-style stack-based language while I was doing it. I'll probably post a link to it on the glypho webpage (when I make it), but I doubt I'll make an esolang wiki article on it. 04:59:35 Hehe. 04:59:41 Alright, I'll write up a spec now. 05:00:19 It SHOULD be TC too, but Im not sure 05:00:35 Mine's TC because Brainfuck is. 05:00:40 And it's a superset. 05:00:43 Yeah, I want to see a spec on yours. 05:00:57 Supersets are nice and convenient. 05:02:40 * Arrogant nods 05:05:51 I'll name my language Synesthesia 05:06:53 a little long, but quirky so you get bonus points 05:07:35 Synesthesia is a psychological condition, look it up on Wikipedia, it's pretty awesome. 05:08:29 Ah, yes, that one. I read about it in discover once.. a man described a piano as sounding "blue". 05:09:10 I hate that psychological condition, which sounds harsh, but its out of jealousy - I'll never understand what color things sound like. 05:09:20 Exactly. 05:09:33 Of course, I'm not jealous of people who see colors as pain. 05:11:01 Good point. Maybe I should count my blessings 05:11:16 "YELLOW! OWWW!! YELLOW!!!"... 05:26:25 I think that's it. 05:27:06 http://paragon.pastebin.com/368728 Feel free to ask questions if it's not clear 05:27:59 Ah, you have integer output, eh? 05:28:13 I needed it for sanity 05:28:20 when pushing the current value onto the stack, does it remove that value? 05:28:23 No 05:28:40 It's been decided between me and my partner in esotericity that that would be a total bitch. 05:28:58 You'd have to do |%* in order to keep a value in that case 05:29:06 so n is local, u is used for.. cheap parameter passing?... and t is global? 05:29:07 And it seems unneccesary. 05:29:21 u is used for accessing data in the parent scope 05:29:27 Something you don't do in normal languages 05:29:29 t is global yes 05:29:51 I used u in scopeops 05:29:53 Well, in Glypho you have to do 11-+ in order to put 0 on the top of the stack 05:30:19 sometimes esotericity provides curious instruction requirements 05:31:15 It's difficult enough as it is :D 05:31:18 {reverse:(n>(n?[(u*>)?])<[<]>[|>])} 05:31:36 inverts the stack 05:31:48 Scope hacking is fun though. 05:32:10 yes, but after that I just have to call (reverse) right? 05:32:15 Rigt 05:32:16 Right 05:32:19 {reverse} 05:34:41 here's the ouroboros spec: www4.ncsu.edu/~bcthomp2/ouroboros.txt 05:34:42 The most straightforward "Hello, world!" making use of the stdlib is (iascii)(istackops){H}{e}{l}{l}{o}{COMMA}{SPACE}{w}{o}{r}{l}{d}{EXCLAM}{reverse}{print} 05:35:08 -!- Sgep has quit. 05:35:14 Its essentially similar to Glypho, except using increment and decrement - easier to prove TC in, perhaps, but Glypho can implement increment and decrement similarly 05:35:31 Yeah, those ascii.bf stdlib functions are nice 05:36:45 I'm thinking that the language is just too complex for it's own good 05:37:04 Also, I'd advise against using a letter for an instruction if you're allowing Brainfuck style comments 05:38:47 Ouroborus is so much more elegant than mine 05:39:21 Well, part of that, I think, is that your language gets bogged down by... higher level stuff (like scope). High-level == bad 05:39:42 Subroutines would be rather useless without it 05:40:04 I think that the way that the scopes are implemented makes them fairly disgusting to use 05:40:17 But then 05:40:28 There's scopes AND subroutines AND stack AND array AND etc 05:41:04 Well, the stack + array concept isn't bad necessarily. Very similar to real machines that have a stack and registers and memory 05:42:02 All of it put together makes it far too easy to do things 05:42:25 (imath),|,|{add}*! 05:42:43 Takes two characters from input and outputs the sum of their codes. 05:43:31 Obviously this is much harder to do in other things 05:43:45 like bf? 05:44:02 Right. 05:44:20 Not all esolangs make it HARD to do things 05:44:28 True. 05:44:32 But BF does. 05:44:38 And mine's a derivative of it 05:45:00 I suppose that it was my intention to not make it hard to do things 05:45:05 the problem with your language though, is that its too easy to do things without ever touching the underlying code. With enough subroutines you could write code in your language that looked entirely readable 05:46:23 I could do away with subroutines and make it entirely difficult again. 05:47:12 The source code for the thing is 400 lines long too 05:47:17 Well, its not necessarily BAD either though... 05:47:34 * Arrogant shrugs 05:47:35 I dunno. 05:48:24 I think a better system might be in-line definition of subroutines with a fixed symbol set (probably all capital &/| lowercase letters) 05:48:48 Nah. 05:48:52 I think I'll leave it as it is. 05:49:03 alrighty, it really is your call after all 05:49:08 I won't bother posting it on the wiki I don't think though 05:49:17 Just a practice run. 05:49:24 Sounds good 05:49:54 First however I will write a Brainfuck interpreter in it. 05:50:16 should be easy enough :-) 05:50:19 Yep. 05:50:55 Anyhow, I wanted to get to bed an hour ago.. so I better get to bed now 05:51:00 Hehe. Night. 06:04:26 -!- calamari has joined. 06:04:33 hi 06:09:46 Hey calamari. 06:09:58 hi Arrogant 06:18:57 Night. 06:19:00 -!- Arrogant has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Try something fresh"). 07:42:23 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:47:49 Looks like last year, someone wrote a master's thesis level paper on the very same string-structures that compose glypho. 07:48:19 Yet, here I am, composing Glypho for fun - even coming up with the ideas within it arbitrarily - in order to get AWAY from the research leading to my master's thesis. 07:55:36 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:10:43 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:20:06 -!- kipple has joined. 14:39:42 -!- jix has joined. 14:41:35 moin 15:46:54 -!- lindi- has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:47:27 -!- lindi- has joined. 17:18:38 np: Metallica - Am I Evil (bonus track) [ Kill 'Em All ] 17:21:20 you seem to really like that song :) 17:21:36 hehe yes 17:22:13 but i like other songs too 19:12:53 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:15:57 -!- jix has joined. 20:20:14 -!- nooga has joined. 20:20:46 hi 20:20:57 who knows javascript well? 20:21:20 * jix doesn't 20:22:51 http://nooga.kewlnet.int.pl/magnets.php << it works under IE, but not under mozillas 20:23:13 and under khtmls? 20:23:17 i can't manage myself to make it 100% compliant 20:23:21 don't know 20:23:27 doesn't 20:23:38 do you want drag and drop? 20:23:52 yes 20:24:06 but 20:24:06 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 20:24:11 you have to write a version for every browser 20:24:14 because none is compliant 20:24:29 ahm 20:24:37 and that's my problem 20:24:42 i don't know javascript 20:24:58 * Wildhalcyon is noncompliant 20:27:34 nooga: maybe http://script.aculo.us/ helps 20:29:06 thx 20:31:32 hah 20:32:32 hm 20:32:35 i guess 20:33:15 nvm 20:35:01 -!- nooga has quit. 20:47:36 wildhalcyon: about Glypho. What gets pushed on EOF? 21:45:41 huh? 21:45:52 when you read from input 21:45:57 and reach EOF 21:46:11 depends on your system I suppose. 21:46:26 so it's up to the interpreter? 21:46:30 for my cat program, it waits for 0 21:46:39 pretty much kipple 21:46:53 then you get the same problem as brainfuck 21:47:04 that programs that depend on input are not portable 21:47:32 thats true of almost all languages to a varying degree 21:47:52 no. you can just say that on EOF a 0 (or -1) is pushed 21:48:32 but even the idea of "eof" is outside of the confines of the language 21:50:39 I suppose I could say that, but it goes against my thinking for the language 21:50:48 ok 21:51:33 any news on a working interpreter? 21:52:03 Not this week. I'm busy with my "real" research 21:52:19 I have been thinking about a brainfuck to glypho compiler, but it's a bit hard to test without an interpreter :) 21:53:35 I suppose that's true.. hmm 21:53:58 probably wont have time to finish it this week anyway 21:54:09 I'll try to get one asap. It'll probably be written in C 21:55:14 actually it'll probably be brainfuck to glypho shorthand 21:56:25 Well, the interpreter is going to be able to accept both shorthand and full-glypho 21:56:36 that's nice 21:57:05 could I request a debugging feature to display the contents of the stack as well? :) 21:57:20 I also want to write a quick shorthand-to-full-glypho compiler 21:57:28 that should be easy 21:57:49 You could, I'll check with the project management team about potentially including it 21:58:50 Well, in order for me to consider the shorthand-to-full-glypho compiler valid, it has to be able to take a set of symbols and randomly use them in the full glypho 22:00:00 its still not hard though, but it won't just encode them as abcd 22:00:42 hehe. a really cool feature would be to have the resulting code appear as proper english :) 22:03:30 I thought about that, but it's pretty difficult for instructions like aaab and abbb 22:03:34 yes 22:03:46 whitespace could be the key 22:07:19 whitespace... hmmm 22:07:25 your answer intrigues me 22:08:08 I shall dwell on it further. For now, I am once again off to work. You have given me much to think about while I slave over my drudgery... 22:32:27 -!- jix has left (?). 23:34:31 -!- Wildhalcyon_ has joined. 23:49:47 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 2005-09-21: 00:30:22 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 00:42:40 -!- pgimeno has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:57:14 -!- pgimeno has joined. 02:15:03 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:16:37 -!- kipple has joined. 02:47:25 -!- telemakh0s has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:49:46 -!- Sgep has joined. 02:51:56 -!- Wildhalcyon_ has changed nick to Wildhalcyon. 02:55:37 howdy 02:58:50 hi 03:02:13 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:16:04 -!- Arrogant has joined. 03:16:41 hiarrigant 03:17:51 hisgep 03:23:20 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 03:24:09 hello 03:24:53 Hey Wildhalcyon 03:25:05 I've failed in writing Brainfuck in Synesthesia 03:25:11 I don't know how to implement the loops 03:25:13 How you doin' today Arrogant? 03:25:17 really? 03:25:25 post the link to the spec again 03:25:28 K. 03:25:55 http://paragon.pastebin.com/368728 03:26:12 Kipple posed me an interesting problem about writing a Glypho program that resembled natural english. I think for duplicate symbols (such as aaab and abbb) I'll use multiple spaces to cheat 03:26:46 What's wrong with using []? 03:27:50 Because it has to read the instructions from a stream. 03:28:03 I've got an idea on how to do it. It's complicated though. 03:28:32 Oh, you mean writing a bf interpreter in synesthesia? 03:29:22 Right 03:30:01 That's much more complicated 03:30:02 http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Awib 03:32:49 Awib is insanity 03:33:49 Which should tell you that yours probably won't be beautiful either. 03:35:07 Do you know of any english words that begin with a double letter? 03:35:21 ooze 03:35:28 oohh, good one kipple! 03:35:46 eel 03:35:57 oops 03:36:45 hmmmnow I need a word that looks like: abcbc 03:36:50 awib is awesome by the way :) 03:37:01 awib does get mad props 03:37:28 queue 03:37:34 ohh.. that might work 03:39:21 you need a dictionary and a pattern search program 03:39:28 I really do 03:39:40 lol, unfortunately, I dont have linux here at home 03:40:27 so far, my program looks like: "oops I queued a good " 03:40:53 notice the large number of x3 spaces? That's unfortunate 03:41:40 If I encode ouroboros in Glypho, I could eliminate the abbb and aaab symbol combinations as NOPs and never use them (which is why I made aaaa a NOP) 03:42:41 Reminds me of a rhyme scheme. 03:43:31 They are rhyme schemes, too. 03:43:42 You could easily encode glypho in rhyming quatrains 03:44:21 Except 03:44:28 It'd be extremely difficult 03:44:39 To programatically identify English rhymes :D 03:45:08 Not too hard... I could probably write a script to do it with a fixed set of rhyming word endings 03:45:20 queue and you rhyme 03:45:31 yes? 03:45:38 however 03:45:41 thou and you don't 03:45:54 Endings don't do it. 03:46:12 Oh, I know. That's not what I meant 03:46:17 I meant ending words for stanzas 03:46:41 Ah. 03:46:43 so it will randomly pick a rhyming set of words for each a, b, c 03:46:53 It's not REAL creative to do it automatically, but it could do it 03:47:31 I see what you mean now. You meant generate it. 03:48:09 right. Each word predefined with the set of words that it rhymed to 03:48:51 Arrogant: about Synesthesia... Can you have only one array within a scope? 03:48:54 so thou would be in the set {thou, how, cow, bow, frau...} and we'll put you in with {do, loo, rue, moo...} 03:49:41 kipple: Yes. 03:51:15 kipple, I give up, this bites 03:51:18 does subroutines have a permanent scope, or is it reinitialized on every call 03:53:11 There are no static scopes 03:53:28 Subroutines don't have a scope unless you create one 03:53:31 ok 03:53:33 In which case it is created on each call 03:53:47 I've been thinking about what you said about the bf-interpreter 03:53:51 Or you could create a scope and call the subroutine from within 03:55:05 I have "oops I queued a" still, "oops I queued a deed..." maybe 03:56:08 Im trying to encode the fibonacci generator: aabc abab abab abbb abbb abba aabc abab abaa abab aaba abab aabb abab abbb abcd 03:56:41 -!- calamari has joined. 03:56:46 hi 03:57:04 hey calamari 03:57:25 hi halcyon 03:57:27 hi 03:57:34 Wildhalcyon: They can be any word that matches the schemes? 03:57:38 Err 03:57:40 Any symbols 03:57:43 Does it ignore whitespace? 03:57:59 arrogant: the solution to the looping problem is to first store the entire source code, so you don't have to read it from a stream 03:58:13 Right. 03:58:16 I'm doing that this time. 03:58:37 arrogant: actually, they can breech word boundaries if you like - spaces count as symbols 03:58:43 ok. sounded like you had given up 03:59:16 Ah. 03:59:24 That makes it slightly more complicated 03:59:25 If spaces don't count as symbols then the problem is tricker, because i/o use abbb and aaab 04:00:00 but if spaces are ignored then you can use stuff like abb b 04:00:59 ohh, good point kipple 04:01:05 I'd say ignoring spaces makes it a lot easier 04:01:09 hadn't thought of tha I guess 04:01:31 Yeah. Ignore whitespace. 04:01:36 I'll try it out 04:06:15 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:06:49 I have returned, as foretold by prophecy! 04:07:06 Nostradamus? 04:08:57 Gregordamus. 04:09:45 Weren't you the one foretold to bring chips & dip to the next festive gathering? 04:09:49 hmm, gregordamus.. does that mean you'll only be taken seriously, by crackpots, after you're dead? 04:09:58 Basically. 04:10:04 so, what's new 04:10:07 ? 04:10:11 The irony being that that too was foretold by prophecy. 04:10:27 Umm ... new release of OBLISK! Nothing on the esoteric front however :-P 04:10:42 I meant that as a response to calamari 04:10:45 if I discount whitespace, but count "punctuation" (such as ellipsis), it helps a bit. 04:10:48 Oblisk? 04:11:04 http://oblisk.codu.org/ (/me gives himself one shameless plug point) 04:11:06 kipple: no kidding, huh 04:11:42 -!- GregorR has left (?). 04:11:58 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:12:01 WTF? 04:12:03 GregorR: bad news. looks like ORK wasn't the first OO esolang after all... http://web.archive.org/web/20041015023918/http://www.inz.info/pingpong/Tutorial.html#oop 04:12:08 Why was I just not in the channel ... 04:12:24 kipple: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *sobs* 04:12:26 I dont know how OO pingpong was 04:12:32 I think you're still safe Gregor 04:12:53 lol 04:13:04 Also, "turing complete" is a necessary part of that definition. 04:13:26 Because I'm sure there are all sorts of worthless OO joke languages :-P 04:13:32 true 04:13:37 like HQ9++ 04:13:41 Yup 04:14:05 GregorR: interesting.. I'm working on a package manager for school research 04:15:45 what is the meaning of life? 04:16:24 42 04:16:27 Wrong 04:16:39 42 is the answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything. 04:16:42 Not the meaning of life. 04:16:53 I stand corrected 04:16:57 :) 04:17:03 it could be both 04:17:14 Life (n): The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism. 04:17:23 GregorR: That's the definition. 04:17:29 Meaning and definition are wholly different. 04:17:30 Which is the meaning :-P 04:17:33 Pff 04:17:46 No, the meaning of life is expressed in eight instructions: +-><[]., 04:17:53 gregor: so what is the definition of meaning? 04:18:15 calamari: I was just looking that up ;) 04:20:30 I think Im typing myself into a corner here... 04:23:59 I think I'll drop writing a Brainfuck interpreter in Synesthesia 04:24:18 I'll write a new language instead. 04:24:44 do you have some fresh ideas? 04:25:51 I'll come up with something. 04:26:32 you could browse the categories on the wiki, and see which categories have few languages 04:26:54 then it's easier to make something different 04:31:44 My favorite joke language is TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL 04:32:22 hehe. that one is cool 04:32:38 I just like the name. 04:32:38 The Multi-Million Language Project To End All Language Projects And Isn't That A Fine Name For A Language 04:33:09 A more useable version of java2K wouldnt be bad 04:33:41 or something like that - where the instruction has a probability of executing the instruction properly < 1 04:34:13 how about a non-deterministic language with full access to the file system? 04:35:36 Shoot.. how come my instruction reference doesn't coincide with the freakin' program Im trying to write?!!! 04:35:40 * Wildhalcyon hits head repeatedly 04:36:10 -!- Sgep has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:38:36 Ouch. 04:38:53 Im acting like a moron 04:43:31 Okay, after correcting the mistake, here's what I have so far: "Oops an anti time eel... 04:43:34 I want to make a language that's not based on a programming concept. 04:43:56 what do you consider a programming concept? 04:44:08 Scopes, stacks, arrays. 04:44:08 variables? loops? 04:44:11 Etc. 04:44:19 I mean, these elements have to exist. 04:44:27 At least... 04:44:28 SOME of them. 04:49:47 you mean you want to camophlage them as something else? 04:53:01 Something like that. 04:53:04 The real point is 04:53:33 I want the language to have a concept that is beyond a technical aspect 04:54:28 you mean like Chef or Shakespeare? 04:54:40 Right. 04:56:26 I often start to think about such themed languages, but I've never finished one 04:59:45 Hehe. 04:59:52 They're my favorite type. 05:07:23 I like themed languages too 05:07:26 Piet is awesome 05:07:34 Yes 05:07:35 Yes it is 05:07:36 hmm. the wiki lacks a category for this kind of languages 05:07:55 I'll make one. is Themed an appropriate name? 05:08:09 Hmmm.. well, maybe 05:08:45 Thematic 05:09:42 hmm. that might be better 05:09:51 Emoticon is pretty cool 05:11:14 the problem with the category is the ambiguity of the word "themed" 05:11:31 but that will be explained on the category page 05:11:42 ok 05:11:46 something like " languages are based on a theme that is not computer related" 05:11:52 is that ambigous? 05:12:05 I still don't entirely understand it. 05:12:39 Arrogant, make an ASCII art language 05:12:49 that'd be fun 05:13:11 Err 05:13:17 I don't see how that'd even work 05:13:28 kipple: that seems pretty clear 05:14:03 Well 05:14:10 Computer related isn't really a good way to say it 05:14:29 how so? 05:14:48 You could make a thematic language based on computers 05:15:03 true 05:15:11 Like, computers as objects or things like that. 05:16:22 I'm open to suggestions... 05:16:27 I thought about implementing a network-headache website that folks could upload their programs onto in order to run them. Ticks would be once every hour. 05:16:28 Languages that are conceptually defined by a theme as opposed to a programming paradigm. 05:17:09 I'll use that one 05:17:27 Ooh, Arrogant comes out with a winner. Nice job 05:17:43 bbl 05:18:19 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Category:Thematic 05:18:32 current members are Chef, Shakespeare, Taxi and var'aq 05:20:37 Excellent. 05:21:15 added some more 05:21:23 probably missed a bunch 05:22:07 ZOMBIE is so cool. 05:22:31 Someone should write an implementation of it. 05:23:07 DMM makes fun languages 05:23:17 Yeah 05:23:26 and fun comics 05:27:18 TRANSCRIPT is also pretty cool: http://www.corknut.org/code/transcript/samples/fibonacci.txt 05:28:26 Crazy 05:31:03 good night 05:31:11 -!- kipple has left (?). 05:46:38 GregorR: ORK looks a lot like a spec I was writing 05:47:01 OK? 05:47:15 Does that mean I beat you in the race? :P 05:47:33 Yes :( 05:48:39 There is such a thing as an esoteric programming language. 05:48:49 An esoteric programming language has an author which is a person. 05:48:54 There is such a thing as a person. 05:49:02 A person has a name which is a phrase. 05:49:04 :-P 05:49:12 It would take too long to gloat in ORK. 05:50:43 Hehe. 05:51:18 Tomorrow I buy Moxie soda. 05:51:22 And so, I am in a jovial mood. 05:51:27 For I finally found Moxie. 05:51:32 ORK is jus so awesome. 05:51:34 just* 05:51:36 I love it. 05:51:43 Why thank you :) 05:51:44 There'd better be an interpreter ;) 05:51:50 Sorry, only a compiler. 05:51:53 It compiles to C++ 05:51:56 Ah. 05:52:14 Feel free to write an interpreter 8-D 05:52:23 I think I could write an interpreter in Python 05:52:56 Python is not in my repretoire, but from what I know about it it seems like a logical choice. 05:53:21 Well, I could certainly write the interpreter quickly 06:03:44 Y'know.. I've seen transcript before, but I never really thought "Hmm, what should I program in it?" and now... hmmm 06:04:16 Also, Glypho polyglots with almost any other language are terribly terribly easy if you restrict the symbol set. :-D 06:09:16 Hmm 06:12:46 GregorR: I think that I'll make it similar to how I made Synesthesia's interpreter. 06:12:56 Except I'll add Objects to it. Obviously. 06:13:22 The parser'll produce a list of instructions which are Python objects with a perform method that tells me what they do. 06:13:27 Having no idea what/who Synesthesia is, I'll just nod my head. 06:13:36 And go "ahh, I see" 06:13:44 http://paragon.pastebin.com/368728 06:14:12 Humm 06:14:28 its like bf on programming steroids 06:15:11 Right. 06:16:21 Anyhow, more ideas are swimming through my head than I can clearly keep track of; that generally means its night time for me. I'll have some more glypho fluff tomorrow though, to be sure! 06:16:24 g'night! 06:21:07 Night Wildhalcyon 06:31:15 GregorR: FYB also seems pretty awesome. 06:31:32 I can agree with that ;) 06:32:55 It also seems really hard to do :D 06:33:20 jix did pretty well for himself. 06:33:27 Until I DEFEATED HIM UTTERLY! 06:33:31 MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAAH 06:34:50 anyone knows any 3-player paper-and-pencil games? 06:36:42 Also, your index page is a 2L program isn't it 06:39:03 Arrogant: Yup :-P 06:39:18 lament: If you draw cards on a piece of paper then cut it out, I've got a great one for you! 06:54:01 Alright, good night. 06:54:04 -!- Arrogant has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The future of IRC"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:09:49 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:10:05 -!- calamari has joined. 08:53:58 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 10:10:47 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:56:49 -!- jix has joined. 13:58:01 -!- kipple has joined. 14:15:33 -!- Keymaker has joined. 14:15:36 j0000000! 14:15:51 hello 14:15:54 hello 14:16:10 got home from the big exams.. 14:16:38 ..and think they went well.. 14:16:44 congrats 14:16:54 cheers 14:19:07 rghhh.. my favourite band's website has been down already a week or something! 14:56:51 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 14:59:02 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:59:25 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 15:03:32 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:03:55 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 15:05:42 'ello 15:06:18 -!- Freya has joined. 15:06:24 -!- Freya has left (?). 15:06:29 -!- nooga has joined. 15:06:32 hi 15:07:04 hi hi 15:07:30 btw, my language plan isn't ready yet :) 15:07:38 hm 15:07:46 whatr language? 15:07:55 no name 15:08:04 the mysterious one 15:08:26 but there are some things i'll need to think more 15:08:37 like a name 15:08:45 :P not necessary 15:08:48 Necessary 15:08:49 lol 15:09:04 !NEcessary 15:09:31 as i've done unnecessary, perhaps that should be called nonnecessary 15:09:32 sounds strangely like your other language.. 15:09:45 that was joke 15:09:55 i mean the name ;) 15:10:18 i've thought about "planb" 15:10:32 comes from words plan B, but doesn't kinda look like it 15:10:33 any examples can you introdouce? 15:10:39 not yet 15:10:42 sorry 15:10:59 cool, it makes it more mysterious > 15:11:01 :> 15:11:09 (although it should be probably called plan f already..) 15:11:14 pretty much 15:11:20 plan z ;p 15:11:41 I saw some "sneak peak" syntax about four days ago that involved brackets like ( )... he coulda just been pullin' my leg 15:11:49 yes 15:12:02 it will look like that 15:12:37 you're clearly suspicious W, but i'll show you someday *evil laugh* 15:13:13 on my deathbed perhaps... 15:13:52 you're too [some word i forgot], you can't wait for a month! 15:13:59 :p 15:14:11 when i was young planning an esolang took weeks 15:14:57 but what i was about to say.. oh; if i'm to keep my current plan, which i think is cool, i will need a nop instruction, that's necessary for the language actually ;) 15:15:18 the word you're looking for is "impatient", and yes, I am. 15:15:23 lol, yeah 15:15:29 i had no time to look it up ;) 15:16:34 but when the language is ready i think you will like it.. 15:16:43 (or hate) 15:18:39 somtimes it turns out to be the same 15:18:49 what same? 15:18:59 haha. very good point, W 15:19:06 ah, now i got it.. 15:19:09 i guess 15:19:31 that is often true for esolangs 15:19:35 love == hate == 0 == 1 15:19:45 yes, the relationship to esolangs: i love this language *smashes keyboard* AAAARRGHG! success! this program works! 15:20:24 yeah, that's how I feel too 15:20:43 Kipple, I havent got a sentence out of glypho yet 15:21:00 you mean specs? 15:21:34 no, he means wrtiting code that looks like a proper sentence 15:21:47 it's hard 15:22:09 ah 15:22:48 that would make nice wiki entry but i've never seen good examples 15:23:18 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:24:47 hmm. i'll go.. bbl 15:24:48 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 15:45:24 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 16:14:31 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 16:14:44 stupid computer 16:15:55 kipple, whats this shoopuf thing? 16:20:29 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:20:34 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 16:23:11 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:23:34 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 16:26:20 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:26:44 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 16:29:09 -!- Keymaker has joined. 16:31:52 the thematic section in esowiki is nice 16:33:13 I like it 16:33:29 It makes me want to write a themed language 16:33:45 ... would you call Glypho a tarpit? 16:33:46 yeah 16:34:02 hmmm.. dunno :) 16:34:14 it has quite many commands iirc..? 16:34:28 14 16:34:34 hmm 16:34:35 15 if you count NOP 16:34:52 Glypho isnt the 2D one I was working on 16:34:58 yes 16:35:03 That's another project 16:35:04 i remember :) 16:35:26 but 15 is quite many compared to many other tar-pits 16:35:30 but feel free :) 16:35:42 I suppose that's true 16:36:37 A stack tarpit naturally needs more commands than a tape-based tarpit 16:36:47 yes 16:37:16 i've made a stack tarpit that uses 7 instructions 16:37:34 wow, was it TC? 16:37:36 or not sure if it can be called stack 16:37:38 not sure 16:37:43 i called it stacklet 16:37:54 well, Ive had a couple complaints about my stack too 16:38:02 hehe 16:38:07 lemme search the "specs" 16:40:13 the memory model is kind of ring, where you can push zero to end to create new value 16:40:21 values can be 0 or 1 16:40:22 bits 16:40:32 loops work the brainfuck way ( ) 16:40:43 and browsing memory works by spinning the ring memory right 16:40:44 Hmm... darn, Ouroboros wasn't that new after all 16:40:57 :\ 16:41:12 and input and output instructions.. 16:41:28 dunno is it tc or not 16:41:48 but i think yes 16:41:53 but can be all wrong.. 16:42:24 Im not sure if yours is. My almost exactly-the-same 12-instruction language is (I think). The difference is values are not just 0/1, you can spin either direction, and there's a dup and a swap command 16:42:40 yah 16:42:48 I guess there's no reason yours couldn't be either 16:43:24 yeah.. but this perhaps would need eight instruction, something to remove value from stack.. not sure 16:43:35 Anyhow, Im off to class now Mr. Maker of Keys 16:43:41 and with wrapping memory cells i could use bytes. 16:43:42 ok 16:43:58 later! 16:44:05 :) 16:44:07 bye 16:52:26 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:39:42 bbl. 17:39:44 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 18:17:06 -!- nooga has quit. 18:33:27 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 18:37:33 hello, my esoteric friends 19:24:54 -!- Keymaker has joined. 19:30:55 hmm 19:31:20 hmm? 19:32:06 just thinking.. 19:33:00 no one has explained to me what shoopuf is 19:33:25 don't ask me.. 19:33:55 I won't 19:37:11 -!- nooga has joined. 19:49:45 "Whats a Shoopuf? Play Final Fantasy X or X-2 on the Playstation 2. Seriously, 19:49:45 I couldn't come up with a cool name. First thing that came to mind was the 19:49:45 shoopuf from FFX (just rode one in the game =). " 19:49:56 quoted from the spec.... 19:50:02 (and no, it's not my language) 19:50:46 heh 19:51:14 I don't think it has ever been published on the web 19:51:41 hm ehehe 19:51:59 heeel! im stupid~! 19:52:07 if you say so :) 19:52:09 heeelp 19:52:20 but i am! 19:53:48 ok 19:53:51 :) 19:54:50 -!- pgimeno has quit (Connection reset by peer). 20:03:45 Hmm, looks complicated 20:03:58 what looks complicated? 20:03:58 -!- wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:11:14 -!- pgimeno has joined. 20:31:53 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:32:03 bye 20:32:05 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 20:35:25 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 20:54:05 -!- lindi- has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:29:59 -!- Arrogant has joined. 21:46:49 Hey GregorR 21:48:04 Can't talk now, I'm going to get MOXIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 21:49:25 What the hell? 21:50:03 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 21:56:58 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 21:58:36 <{^Raven^}> hi peeps 22:00:02 Hey Raven. 22:01:55 <{^Raven^}> Arrogant: hi 22:27:14 -!- Arrogant has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- 100,000+ downloads can't be wrong"). 23:01:21 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 23:07:16 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:13:04 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 23:17:10 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:17:33 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 23:23:28 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:23:49 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 23:26:34 -!- Wildhalcyon_ has joined. 23:34:43 -!- Wildhalcyon_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:35:04 -!- Wildhalcyon_ has joined. 23:43:16 -!- Wildhalcyon_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:43:49 -!- Wildhalcyon_ has joined. 23:44:49 -!- Wildhalcyon_ has quit (Client Quit). 23:45:37 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 2005-09-22: 00:04:14 Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm 00:04:15 Moxie 00:04:27 what's this Moxie thing? 00:05:10 It's like the ORIGINAL soda. 00:05:16 They only sell it in Maine, but I found a distributor. 00:05:46 http://www.metrocast.net/~moxieman/WhatIs.html 00:06:20 found it in the 'pedia 00:06:39 Ah yes 00:06:58 interesting. the word moxie comes from the drink, and not the other way around :) 00:07:20 Yup 8-D 00:10:38 amazing what you can learn on #esoteric 00:21:29 -!- calamari has joined. 00:21:42 hi 00:25:28 Hoi 00:25:37 hola 00:25:39 kipple: I think Moxie pretty well fits the definition of an esoteric soda ;) 00:26:19 perhaps 00:26:50 but according to wikipedia it is the official state soft drink of Maine.... not so esoteric 00:26:57 hi GregorR and kipple 00:27:02 True. 00:27:05 Hola calamari and squid. 00:27:12 been implementing NULL for EsoShell 00:27:18 Awesome XD 00:27:19 NULL rocks. 00:45:59 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 00:49:39 -!- twobitsprite has joined. 00:51:52 Well if it ain't 2bit 00:57:07 <{^Raven^}> calamari: i won the compo :) 00:57:07 GregorR, I want some moxie too! 00:57:07 Of course you do, it's awesome. 00:57:07 Where do you live? 00:57:45 RealSoda has retailers all over the USA it turns out :-P 00:58:38 Raleigh, NC 00:59:44 Hmmm, judging by their site, "all over" is limited to the western states 01:00:15 http://www.moxie.info/njmox.htm 01:00:31 I don't know how close to you either of those cities are *shrugs* 01:01:09 not very close considering its new jersey... 01:01:40 There's a nearby one in north carolina though! 01:01:43 whoa... 01:02:35 Whoa? 01:03:56 Oh, I know where the store is, which is surprising, since my knowledge of the area in and around my city is *very* limited. 01:11:11 Wildhalcyon: where in raleigh do you live? 01:12:29 Wildhalcyon: because I live in Cary, NC :P 01:13:02 I live off of Avent Ferry 01:13:51 heh, right on... how long you been in the area? 01:14:03 about a year 01:14:29 you like it? 01:15:23 Not too much. Too humid 01:16:04 from a dryer area? 01:16:15 yeah, Seattle 01:16:26 I see, also a much colder area, huh? 01:17:33 During the summer, YES 01:18:33 yeah... see, I"m up here from FL, so it's the winters that kill me... 01:20:06 Winters are a little colder here, compared with Seattle, but just barely 01:22:05 that surprises me... 01:22:47 Well, apparently a lot of people expect Seattle to be like 10 degrees in the winter 01:23:10 We rarely see < 30 though 01:23:27 I see 01:25:14 not a huge deal 01:26:00 yeah, that's completely tollerable... 01:26:29 * twobitsprite wonders when someone's going to complain about the off-topic convo :P 01:27:35 Well, apparently the "topic" is the archives (not that Im complaining about the handy archive link) 01:29:59 heh 01:37:02 Im trying to read this paper concerning my esolang, but I honestly can't make heads or tails of it. They use (and fail to explain) a lot of terminology, and wikipedia is only helping so much 01:42:12 I hate jargon-heads... 01:43:22 Well, it looks like it was a phd thesis paper... 01:43:49 that would explain it... someone was trying to impress thier prof... 01:43:55 twobitsprite: this is #esoteric. Only complaints about on-topic convo are accepted 01:44:13 lament: duely noted :P 01:44:46 oh yeah? Then I challenge you to a duel! 01:45:00 {^Raven^}: congrats! 01:45:22 2 years in a row.. hehe 01:45:46 * {^Raven^} grins 01:46:03 Does anyone know anything about the density of regular languages? 01:46:08 it was just the 2 games? 01:46:20 Wildhalcyon: density? 01:47:59 I think it has to do with how many strings are in a language v. how many ways to make those strings.. or something 01:48:34 in terms of valid tokens? 01:49:05 identifiers? expressions? 01:49:50 to be honest, Im not sure. 01:50:49 http://www.cs.uwaterloo.ca/journals/JIS/VOL8/Moreira/moreira8.pdf This is the paper Im looking at, the reference to density is on page 3. 01:51:38 I guess not. It seems to just be saying "the number of strings in the language" 01:52:18 "of length n" seems ambiguous though 01:53:06 indeed 01:53:38 in the sense that it doesn't seem to be a density from what Im used to of the term.. 01:53:38 * Wildhalcyon shrugs 01:56:31 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:58:27 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 01:59:06 <{^Raven^}> calamari: at the posted closing of entries just the two 01:59:11 <{^Raven^}> lament: i hope the comp.lang.c topic police don't join #esoteric 02:01:31 on the contrary, they're quite welcome to 02:01:48 provided they stay off-topic, of course :) 02:02:44 * {^Raven^} tries to imagine a significant proportion of clc exploding with indignation 02:02:59 cool.. I've completely busted up EsoShell with all my changes :) 02:03:15 what are those? 02:03:18 don't expect any new versions for a while, lol 02:04:03 <{^Raven^}> excellent, that makes me feel better about forgetting the easel implementation specs (good thing I actually documented it:) 02:04:19 kipple: more powerful console (move around, character attributes), binary files, filesystem program loader, etc 02:04:44 it seems that many of these things are interrelated 02:05:13 so I get partway into writing one then I have to change something else 02:05:28 hehe 02:05:38 been there 02:06:05 one of the things that I really want to do is change the shell into a program just like everything else 02:06:28 that will open up the possibility of shell scripts 02:06:57 <{^Raven^}> i've been wanting to give PESOIX the concept of disk images that can be manipulated using your EsoAPI 02:07:28 then the binary i/o will be handy 02:08:00 calamari: you might as well implement the linux kernel right away. Seems like that's where you're going :D 02:08:16 seems that way sometimes 02:08:30 EsoShell? 02:08:44 http://esoshell.kidsquid.com 02:08:51 afk to mess with things 02:09:44 <{^Raven^}> i'm off to bed, hopefully will have some more time to work on PESOIX soon 02:10:42 * {^Raven^} is writing a smallish compiler that targets eight languages atm 03:37:02 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 04:15:17 * Wildhalcyon understands now. Density of a language = number of strings in the language 04:15:37 what does that mean? number of strings? 04:16:20 it means the number of strings, like "a", "b", "ab", "abababab"... etc 04:17:01 the paper I was reading was concerned with finite language -> languages that have a finite number of strings in them 04:17:19 aha. wouldn't most languages be practically infinite? 04:18:40 well, many are, but there's plenty of finite ones as well 04:19:22 Even though run-on sentences are a problem, english is infinite 04:24:14 do you have an example of a finite language? 04:25:49 Sure, {a, b, ab, ba} 04:25:56 4 strings 04:26:03 not useful, really 04:26:19 befunge 93 would be finite because the code size is restricted. am I right? 04:26:34 Yep 04:26:50 and any Turing complete language would automatically be infinite 04:26:56 although its very large, you're right, it is finite 04:27:06 yes, a TC language is 04:27:23 the strings within glypho are finite - there are 15 of them 04:27:32 befunge 93 codespace is only 80x25 cells. not very large 04:28:03 yes, but you have lots of symbol combinations within it 04:28:07 true 04:28:39 but how is glypho finite? you can combine the 15 strings in an infinite number of ways, cant you? 04:29:27 glypho itself is infinite, but the individual strings are not 04:30:05 well I don't think there are any languages where individual words have infinite length... 04:30:26 There are some 04:31:07 do you have an example of such a word? 04:31:19 (that was a joke by the way) 04:31:32 lol, good.. cause I was gonna start typin' 04:31:46 hehe 04:32:17 Anyhow, the problem I was trying to compute was the overall inefficiency of glypho. 04:33:05 if I have an underlying symbol set and encode it in glypho strings of length n, how much overall loss do I experience? 04:35:46 For the english alphabet, the efficiency is low: 15/(26^4), but for a 2-bit number (smallest possible to encode in glypho) the overall efficiency is 15/4^4= 15/16 04:37:24 sorry - funny math there 04:37:28 its 15/64 04:42:08 -!- sekhmet has joined. 04:44:14 -!- Arrogant has joined. 04:44:54 Hey guys. 04:44:58 Hullo. 04:47:49 hi 04:48:47 Hey Gregor 04:49:37 Are you guys regulars here? 04:50:18 I guess you could say that 04:50:25 I have been recently, but in the past, no. I guess I would like to consider myself to be a regular 04:50:45 I will be. 04:50:52 I mean, it's on my auto-join list. 04:50:54 though addicts might be a better term 04:51:00 And I open IRC every day. 04:51:34 me too. My computer is on all the time, except when I'm asleep, and I'm usually always on here 04:51:59 The first thing I do when I get back to my computer is check my email, the second thing I do is check the #esoteric logs 04:57:52 Keymaker's making some sort of SECRET LANGUAGE? 04:58:10 AND he's not telling us about it 04:58:23 Hence "secret" :-P 04:58:41 I know, isn't it horrible?! 04:58:46 It is. 04:58:50 He's like Microsoft. 04:58:51 but he IS telling you about it. otherwise you wouldn't know 04:59:08 It's marketing. 04:59:13 "Lose something important. Lose everything you have with the world of viruses and trojans that run on Windows!" 04:59:27 Good point kipple. He's told us that it exists, but withheld other details 04:59:56 GregorR: I'm having trouble parsing ORK 05:00:04 I don't know pyparsing very well yet though. 05:00:08 So that has a lot to do with it. 05:00:09 I'm not surprised somehow (no offense) :) 05:00:23 I need to make it look ahead to find "is to" and not parse it as part of the name :D 05:03:02 This isn't a very active channel 05:03:31 Esoteric programming doesn't often make the front-page news either. 05:03:43 you don't say 05:04:00 I know of one on slashdot 05:04:15 Slashdot is not news. 05:04:19 It's not even entertainment news. 05:04:22 It's just stupid. 05:04:42 I disagree. 05:04:49 I know, everyone disagrees :P 05:04:54 Slashdot is serious advertisement is what it is. 05:05:07 just because most of the comments are incredibly stupid doesn't make the articles they link to stupid 05:05:19 I never even get anywhere near the comments. 05:05:28 The articles are just irrelevent and usually a waste of ones time. 05:05:30 the comments arent worth reading 05:06:13 This is of course all just in my (particularly negative) opinion of Slashdot. 05:06:41 as a matter of fact, slashdot is where I first found out about esolangs 05:07:31 someone posted a link to chris' brainfuck page 05:07:43 I don't know exactly where I found out about them, but I do know the first one I discovered with befunge 05:08:16 although, I had "heard" of intercal before, I'd never read up on it 05:08:36 yeah, I think I'd heard about INTERCAL too before 05:09:10 Actually, let me change my point a bit: Slashdot /is now/ bad, but /used/ to be OK. It's gotten progressively worse over the year. 05:09:25 *years 05:09:42 slashdot is god!!!! 05:09:47 we're all children of slashdot 05:10:13 lol, I had to sit in a "Christ's Children Food Ministry" while waiting for the guy to get my Moxie. 05:10:33 Apparently they have a "convert and you can eat" program, which is so subversive it makes me vomit with anger. 05:10:53 what?! 05:11:08 You dont happen to know what church is sponsoring this, do you? 05:11:13 Not a clue. 05:11:18 you mean they only serve believers? 05:11:21 I spent as little time in there as possible. 05:11:24 From what I could tell. 05:11:27 is that legal? 05:11:33 it might be legal 05:11:39 but it would turn all christians against them 05:11:39 Depends on the state laws, I imagine 05:11:41 Well, it's a charity, they could give stuff to whoever they pleased. 05:11:42 wouldn't that be religous discrimination 05:12:03 GregorR has a point 05:12:15 its no more discrimination than african-american scholarships are discrimination 05:12:21 Exactly. 05:12:34 Less so, because it's a changeable (sort of) feature. 05:12:42 so, if someone starts a charity that only gives to white people, that would be legal? I find that hard to believe 05:13:09 kipple: Would you consider a charity that will only give to African American's to be acceptable? If so, you're a hypocrite. 05:13:16 I wouldn't 05:13:24 Good :) 05:14:05 Anyway, even THAT didn't damper the mood on getting Moxie ^_^ 05:14:15 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:14:32 -!- GregorR has changed nick to Peer. 05:14:36 Muahaha! 05:14:39 I have struck again! 05:14:45 -!- Peer has changed nick to GregorR. 05:14:53 who's Peer? 05:14:56 Damn pressure 05:15:01 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 05:15:02 haha 05:15:07 good old Firefox, how I love random errors! 05:15:27 Despite how I love Firefox, I have to agree. 05:15:34 It's not anywhere near as stable as they'd like you to believe. 05:15:42 Wildhalcyon: Beta 1.5 is fun to crash 05:16:20 I've got 1.0.6, so.. probably doesn't crash as much as 1.5, but still, pretty regularly. 05:16:31 My system isn't exactly swimming with stability though. 05:16:49 I crash 1.0.6 very rarely 05:16:53 * kipple uses Opera which almost never crash 05:16:59 I think something's brainfucked on my motherboard. Probably needs to be replaced, but until I can afford my food and rent, motherboard is on backburner 05:18:31 * Wildhalcyon is smart. Finally understands everything in the phD paper 05:19:09 I found a VERY educational website on formal language syntax that helped me through it 05:19:25 Which PhD paper? 05:20:11 Figuring out that 11*+11*2(1+2)*+11*2(1+2)*3(1+2+3)*+11*2(1+2)*3(1+2+3)*4(1+2+3+4)* meant the 15 glypho strings was tough 05:20:41 Arrogant: this paper: http://www.cs.uwaterloo.ca/journals/JIS/VOL8/Moreira/moreira8.pdf 05:25:35 It's got symbols that I don't understand. 05:25:36 :D 05:26:46 I was right there with you this afternoon Arrogant 05:27:46 This one is worse: http://theory.csail.mit.edu/~yekhanin/Papers/acct2004_I.pdf 05:29:33 * kipple takes a brief look on the article and quickly closes it again 05:29:39 XD 05:29:40 Oo. Set operators that I don't remember. 05:29:48 I didn't even go as far as to open the article :-P 05:29:50 Too afraid. 05:30:02 I don't want to be immasculated by a PDF. 05:30:10 I'm only in High School Calculus :( 05:30:43 You're pretty good for only doing HS calc then arrogant. I wouldn't have even been close to understanding that in HS. 05:31:04 I only know that there're some set operators 05:31:09 There's plenty more that I don't understand 05:31:11 Now Im starting to get the hang of it. Most of this knowledge is all self-study stuff. 05:31:27 I think I'll wait until I finish this year 05:31:37 I dont think that 2nd paper had anything useful for me in it... 05:31:56 GregorR: I've decided to define names and such with SkipTo("is to") etc 05:32:21 You'll be able to do "When ^!$351\n\n is to 15!!\a:" if you want to. 05:32:44 hehe 05:32:47 The spec doesn't define what a name could be!~ 05:32:48 :D 05:33:24 doesn't newlines have a special meaning though? 05:33:31 Eh 05:33:53 isn't that how you separate code lines 05:38:51 Yeah, newlines separate code lines. 05:38:58 So that ought not to work. 05:39:15 All the other characters are fine, though using alphanumeric + _ would be consistant with the -to-C++ compiler. 05:39:38 Right. 05:39:40 Well 05:39:43 I'm working on it. 05:40:35 BTW, you haven't exactly lived up to your nick :-P 05:41:39 I do in #python. 05:41:58 Good enough for me. 05:42:23 Hehe 05:43:29 So, if I insulted Python, presumably you would start being more arrogant? 05:43:36 Presumably. 05:44:11 What's with indentation being significant?! Making any whitespace significant is totally idiotic. 05:44:31 What about the language whitespace? 05:44:33 you mean like having whitespace separate code lines? 05:44:46 lol, I was kidding to rile up Arrogant ;) 05:44:53 Python blocks are defined by tabs kipple 05:44:57 Well 05:44:58 Not tabs 05:45:00 Indentation 05:45:01 I know 05:45:08 I was referring to whitespace in ORK 05:45:13 Ah 05:45:13 Okay 05:45:15 It actually enforces good coding practices, which is good. 05:45:18 Yeah. 05:45:28 Makes it shitty for one-liners. 05:45:30 But oh well. 05:45:32 XD 05:45:37 I still try anyway. 05:45:44 I wrote 99 beers in one line 05:46:03 Let's just all agree that Perl is terrible and go on ;) 05:46:03 It's kinda like reading an esoteric language 05:46:27 print "\n".join("%(n)s%(a)s%(b)s,\n%(n)s%(a)s!\nTake one down, pass it around,\n%(m)s%(d)s%(b)s!\n"%{"n":n,"a":(n>1and" bottles"or" bottle")+" of beer","b":" on the wall","m":(n-1or"No more"),"d":(n==2and" bottle"or" bottles")+" of beer"}for n in range(99,0,-1)) 05:46:34 * Wildhalcyon is happy with that statement 05:48:06 the statement about perl, I meant 05:48:35 * kipple goes to bed 05:48:45 Night kipple. 05:49:21 I really should go too. Im not finding the info I need, and I have to be up in 6 hours 05:50:16 Later Wildhalcyon. 06:06:56 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:36:42 -!- Paragon has joined. 06:37:50 -!- calamari has joined. 06:39:12 -!- Paragon has quit (Client Quit). 06:54:27 -!- Arrogant has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:13:14 -!- nooga has joined. 07:14:14 hi 07:16:09 Hullo 07:19:20 :-) 07:20:05 (#esoteric: Join it for the insightful conversations!) 07:20:38 hi noogaGregorR 07:20:52 Transporter accident!!! 07:21:09 the fly! 07:21:21 I'M A MONSTER!!!!!!!!!! 07:21:45 http://www.deepwood.net/~drlion/snusp/sample-code.snusp << looks like a plan of a rail station 07:24:42 Ow. 07:24:53 http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/projects/worb/eg/or-gate.worb << that looks like a roguelike dungeon 07:27:57 huh 07:28:10 i need to create something more interesting than SADOL 07:28:55 how about a 3-d language, where you program with eye-crossing stereograms 07:29:24 or is that only 2 1/2-d 07:29:42 haha, implementation would be hard ;p 07:30:02 cpressey creates cool languages ;p 07:30:16 and a lot of them 07:34:17 hm hehe 07:36:03 i was trying to put linux into my MP3 player :) 07:37:20 and now it doesn't work... 07:48:15 Eye-crossing stereograms = unbelievably cool 07:48:19 Why aren't there more of them? 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:26:39 huh 08:26:42 nooga: there are mp3 players that can run linux? 08:26:47 no 08:26:54 and that's the point :) 08:27:14 i tried to hack one ;p 08:27:21 cool, which one? 08:28:04 MuVo 08:29:45 creative NOMAD MuVo NX 256 MB 08:30:11 is the os part of the 256mb, or is it separate? 08:30:28 I should say the mp3 player :) 08:30:53 256MB are for songs :-) 08:31:09 OS space is ~1MB 08:31:26 how did you change it? 08:31:29 but i tried to put old kernel there 08:32:05 and the rest of things, like lcd driver and some stuf were in that space for songs 08:32:09 stuff 08:32:30 but i fucked up 08:32:40 and now i have blank mp3 player 08:34:02 how did you rewrite that 1mb area? 08:35:31 used a little program 08:35:35 nomad bootflasher 08:35:46 can you reflash it? 08:36:03 yea 08:36:14 wonder if that'd work on a muvo^2.. it has larger storage 08:36:34 and a display :) 08:36:39 hehe 08:36:50 you may try, but don't ask me 08:37:17 i don't want to help breaking your player :D 08:37:25 did you write that bootflasher program? 08:38:41 no 08:39:22 Umm, wouldn't you need to write a custom bootloader that in turn loads the kernel and put /that/ in the 1MB "kernel" space, or did you know how the internal bootloader calls the kernel and manage to set it up to be compatible? 08:39:35 http://www.nomadness.net/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=149 08:39:38 here's the link 08:39:55 http://www.nomadness.net/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=MostPopular << more resources if you want 08:40:25 heh 08:40:39 maybe i'll try again 08:41:40 btw.. how will you know if it worked sicne there is no display? :) 08:43:34 it should print 'hello' 08:43:42 and it does not 08:44:02 where does it print hello? 08:44:19 on the player's display 08:44:33 oh, I guess I was looking at an older model 08:45:20 http://www.nomadworld.com/products/muvo_nx/ 08:47:25 cool 08:47:56 * calamari now knows what he wants for christmas :) 08:48:32 :D 08:50:58 hmm, looks liek they figured out how to hack an ipod and put linux on it too 08:52:19 yea 08:52:26 that was my inspiration 08:52:38 i like hardware hacks 08:52:50 like network coffee express 08:54:04 it's connected with the local network and you can control it from your computer 09:07:04 bye 09:07:13 g2g to school 09:07:21 :/ 09:07:33 cya nooga 09:07:47 -!- nooga has quit ("Leaving"). 10:19:43 * grim_ has a horrible esolang idea 10:23:23 hm, occurs to me that ALPACA might have got there first though 10:40:58 -!- lament has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:51:58 -!- lament has joined. 10:58:51 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:59:03 -!- calamari has joined. 12:01:10 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 12:13:47 -!- kipple has joined. 12:38:21 Nooga, you know if it would work on a MuVo TX FM? That's what Ive got. 14:05:15 -!- jix has joined. 14:39:23 -!- jix has left (?). 14:39:32 -!- jix has joined. 14:39:40 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:35:53 -!- sp3tt has joined. 16:39:10 -!- kipple has quit ("See you later"). 17:21:54 moin 17:39:21 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 17:40:28 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:40:32 hey 17:41:08 -!- jix has joined. 18:24:16 -!- sp3tt has quit (Connection reset by peer). 18:24:16 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:50:51 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 19:23:55 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:25:16 -!- int-e has joined. 19:41:19 -!- lindi- has joined. 20:38:14 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 21:06:19 Im working on my first ever TRANSCRIPT program! 21:18:24 Hmm, doesn't support a lot of string operations via user input :-( 21:18:34 and what are the global objects obj1, obj2, and obj3? 21:25:50 who owns esolangs.org? 21:26:13 i think free subdomains/sub-dns entries for esolang-ers would be coool 21:30:19 That wouldn't be a bad idea.. I've been looking at places to host, since I'll be graduating soon and losing my free school web space 21:30:51 i'm only talking about subdomains not webspace 21:33:05 True, but once I have the domain, I can get the webspace. Having a subdomain tied to the esolang would be nice. 21:33:47 Or maybe that's not feasible 21:33:50 * Wildhalcyon shrugs 21:42:24 -!- int-e has quit ("Client exiting"). 21:45:21 -!- jix has left (?). 23:16:34 -!- Keymaker has joined. 23:16:48 GregorR: you're right; i hate slashdot too 23:17:02 Hoopla :) 23:17:14 :) 23:17:15 * grim_ never reads it 23:17:19 me neither 23:18:00 other site that annoys me a lot is that thinkgeek shop 23:18:17 mmm 23:18:39 when i have time i make my own binary shirt with text "fu*k you thinkgeek, your stuff costs too much!" or something 23:18:46 Hahaha 23:18:58 :) 23:19:03 There was a time when I would have considered buying a case of Bawls from there .. 23:19:10 But now that I have Moxie, who needs Bawls?! 23:19:22 oh no.. 23:19:28 I don't know what it is exactly about thinkgeek that I dislike, but I have no use for the stuff on there and the humour doesn't appeal either 23:19:43 oh, so hang on, that's what I dislike 23:19:44 yes, it isn't that good 23:19:51 hehe :) 23:19:57 the stuff costs a lot, 23:20:01 and often it's crap 23:20:10 tsk 23:20:23 like i wouldn't pay more than 20 euros for a t-shirt with only one word 23:20:30 something like "geek." or something 23:20:34 besides, i hate that word 23:21:04 * GregorR bites off the head of a chicken. 23:21:07 *munch munch munch* 23:21:11 :) 23:21:46 * grim_ doesn't hate "geek" so much... 23:22:13 I'm fine with being called a geek, but only because I do quite enjoy biting off the heads of chickens. 23:22:22 yes.. 23:22:34 I *am* a geek... jsut not a slashdot geek or a thinkgeek geek 23:22:39 Heheh 23:22:41 or a sideshow geek for that matter ;) 23:22:41 yes 23:22:46 :) 23:23:01 i'd rather take something esoteric programming shirt, of some own program 23:23:09 far cooler than any thinkgeek binary message 23:23:18 * GregorR opens an Esoteric Programming Cafeshop. 23:23:23 lol 23:25:49 hey, wait a minute -- i have the exam thing over! soon it should be time to plan a new brainfuck competition 23:25:55 or that gammaplex demo competition 23:27:49 Can somebody write a befunge program that outputs "REAL MEN PROGRAM IN BEFUNGE"? 23:28:01 wiat a bit.. 23:31:00 "EGNUFEB NI MARGORP NEM LAER">:#,_@ 23:31:10 doesn't print a new line, though 23:36:11 Hmmm 23:36:17 The more esoteric the better :-P 23:41:29 grhh. i've catched a flu.. 23:44:16 http://www.cafepress.com/esoprog.32072840 23:47:25 haha 23:47:30 nice :) 23:48:36 now make the traditional thongs and other stuff that can be usually found from those cafeshops.. 23:48:48 Heheh 23:50:06 btw, what does the bf program do? 23:50:21 hello world perhaps.. 23:53:40 REAL MEN PROGRAM IN BRAINFUCK 23:53:48 It's just the same as on the back. 23:53:48 aha 23:53:53 ok 23:53:54 nice 23:54:52 http://www.cafepress.com/esoprog.32074529 23:55:26 lol 2005-09-23: 00:01:31 anyways, off to bed now.. 00:01:55 good night 00:02:01 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 00:14:44 http://www.cafepress.com/esoprog.32075179 00:37:28 * {^Raven^} wonders what a mouse mat is and why anyone would ever need one 00:57:44 Back in the dark ages, computer mice had these little balls in them. 00:57:59 Now, the little balls in the mice turned little wheels to detect the mouse's motion. 00:58:09 However, it needed friction to properly operate. 00:58:31 So, mousepads were made to induce friction into the equation, since most desks were wooden and varnished. 01:03:52 <{^Raven^}> My varnished wooden desk has no problems with those kinds of meese - even before all my ancient meese had testicular enhancement surgery 01:12:47 I would call it something more like neutering than testicular enhancement :-P 01:35:27 slashwhat? 01:35:28 dot? 01:35:30 never heard of it 01:36:02 but then i really haven't been keeping up on current bands 01:37:51 Ahahaha 02:09:37 <{^Raven^}> GregorR: I was talking about the mice that are not of Borg. Quadrature Bus mice don't seem to come in cybernetically enhanced versions 02:12:47 <{^Raven^}> (and most retailers don't even know what they are anyways...like software density select floppy drives) 02:19:28 Of course, any decent operating system shouldn't have a problem with a regular ol' quad density drive and selecting itself. 02:19:32 Emphasis on "decent" 02:21:08 <{^Raven^}> SDS drives are superior and more versatile 02:53:00 Wooh, I got five players in my card game online! 02:53:05 New recorrrrrrrrrrrrrd! 03:01:15 hey!!! 03:01:35 Hi!!!!!!!! 03:10:19 Im pissed 03:10:26 Only BF stuff in the esoshoppe? 03:10:46 that's brainfucked up right there 03:14:16 -!- Sgep has joined. 03:32:25 Wildhalcyon: It's the only language I can write stuff in off the top of my head :-P 03:32:30 Feel free to suggest/write others! 03:32:37 I will GLADLY add Befunge, INTERCAL, etc. 03:44:43 Hmm, good to know Gregor 03:45:01 Did you design all those Gregor? 03:45:44 (the shirt, mousepad, etc) 03:47:15 Yeah. 03:47:20 Well, I didn't write the code on the mousepad. 03:47:22 It's wib.b 04:05:47 wib? 04:06:21 "Written In Brainfuck", the Brainfuck compiler in Brainfuck. 04:06:25 (Sorry for my prolonged absence - I jotted down to the store to get some more soda - not Moxie unfortunately) 04:06:28 I thought that was awib? 04:07:11 awib is Also Written in Brainfuck. 04:07:18 wib compiles to C, awib compiles to binary 04:07:47 Oh 04:07:52 Well, isn't that fancy. 04:08:03 So, the code on the mousepad is a bf->c compiler? 04:08:35 Yup 04:08:52 I decided that if anybody typed it in, it would be more helpful to output C ;) 04:08:59 Since plenty of people will be transcribing the mousepad. 04:09:07 That's true 04:09:24 <{^Raven^}> or be lazy and scan / ocr it 04:09:40 so, what DOES happen when its run on a BF interpreter? 04:10:10 It takes BF as input and outputs C. 04:10:40 so, if someone were to not know BF, they wouldn't necessarily KNOW that's what it did? 04:10:53 Nope :))) 04:11:12 well, that's pretty esoteric 04:11:51 Haha: my friend's away message on AIM is "Dear Jay-Z, plz take a seat. K thnx." 04:14:30 I might rewrite the snusp ackermann function code 04:16:36 see if that looks good on a shirt maybe 04:16:44 That would be fun :) 04:17:31 I like the way it looks 04:31:03 -!- Sgep has quit. 04:31:20 I wonder who Sgep is... 04:31:27 He joined, said nothing, then left. 04:40:39 he's said stuff before, I think 04:40:56 Hmm. 04:41:01 Somehow I've entirely missed him XD 04:43:57 He's making an esolang I think 04:57:28 -!- Arrogant has joined. 05:25:38 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 06:01:48 *place conversation here* 06:07:22 *insert witty response here* 06:07:44 *insert standard greeting here* 06:09:21 *ban ban ban* 06:11:41 *insert derogatory statement here* 06:19:18 *non-sequitor from the lurker* 06:20:33 *surprised expression* 06:20:53 *something involving beets* 06:21:15 *off-color joke involving beets* 06:21:30 *hearty guffaw* 06:28:41 *a sentence enclosed in asterisks* 06:36:06 GregorR: FYB is fucking fast. 06:36:16 lol 06:36:20 It is written in C :-P 06:36:30 Yes 06:36:40 Damned C 06:36:50 Makes Python look bad sometimes 06:37:14 Heheh 06:37:39 * Arrogant is going to try to get his friend to FACE OFF IN FYB 06:38:36 lol 06:53:12 -!- Arrogant has quit (" Want to be different? HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:03:37 -!- calamari has joined. 09:03:42 hi 09:43:46 yo 09:58:44 hi grim 10:22:25 -!- calamari_ has joined. 10:25:30 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:31:22 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 13:36:09 -!- jix has joined. 13:58:01 -!- Keymaker has joined. 13:58:07 it's WEEEEEEEEEEEKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEND! 14:07:30 very true. 14:10:02 :) 14:45:15 is anyone actually here? 14:47:32 nope 14:52:04 ok 15:27:09 * jix is 16:03:36 * Keymaker goes to store. 16:25:45 -!- J|x has joined. 16:26:09 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:26:17 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 16:35:46 hm 16:36:41 hm? 16:43:34 nothing.. 16:44:06 when i woke up today i got idea for minimalistic funge 16:46:41 hmm 16:46:51 let me try to tell it in few words (takes a bit time) 16:48:00 -!- J|x has joined. 16:48:26 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:48:28 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 16:50:24 jix, 16:50:30 you received my previous lines? 16:50:43 about that i'm going to describe it soon..? 16:53:04 no 16:53:19 ok 16:53:30 i'll post the description soon 16:54:35 * grim_ still lurks 16:56:06 :) here it goes: 16:56:07 - infinite program space, "field", consist of infinite amount of blocks 16:56:07 - each block in field can have value 0 or 1 (in theory) 16:56:07 - there is befunge-like instruction pointer 16:56:07 - IP has also value 0 or 1 in it's one bit memory (called IPM) 16:56:07 - three instructions: 16:56:09 . flips the bit value of the block, and saves the new value to IPM 16:56:11 * changes direction 90 degrees; if going right go down, if down go left, if left go up, if up go right. 16:56:13 = if IPM is 1, continue to next instruction, if IPM is 0, perform '*' instruction 16:56:15 - other data is NOP 16:56:17 - possible name is "trifunge" 16:57:17 i'm not sure is it TC or not, but i guess it is; since it has infinite memory, ability for condition '=', and command for memory manipulation '.' 17:02:12 now when i think about it, i'm not sure if a skip character '#' (befunge way) is required.. 17:02:35 oops, i mean that i think it may be it is required.. 17:03:03 -!- {^Raven^} has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:13:54 ** * 17:13:54 * .#* =* 17:13:54 *** * 17:13:54 ** >> IP goes here after executing that program >> 17:13:55 ** 17:15:20 that program sets the value first 1 and then makes it zero. useful snippet for designing programs that need to set some memory block to zero ;) 17:15:46 oh, and that program uses new instruction '#' skip, which i think is required 17:17:12 ..at least now the name can't be "trifunge" 17:21:06 (to note, the initial IP direction is right.) 17:35:21 nobody has anything to say? i'm disappointed :P 17:37:51 i don't get it... ;) 17:41:08 what part? 17:56:56 so... cells in the grid each have a bit value associated with them? 17:58:15 hmm.. yes, (if i understood your question right) 17:58:39 you see, it's two dimensional grid, where there can be other data (NOP) and instructions; 17:58:50 ---. 17:58:53 ---- 17:58:55 --.- 17:59:00 like that way 17:59:29 when the instruction pointer is in '.' block, it flips the value that block has 17:59:37 every block has a byte value 17:59:44 and instruction value 17:59:58 er, byte/bit? 18:00:02 yeah, bit 18:00:04 sorry :) 18:00:16 yeah ok, that's what I thought 18:00:23 ok 18:00:28 so the program you posted sets a bit, clears it again, and exits 18:00:39 yes and no 18:00:43 it doesn't actually exit 18:00:59 mm, I mean "exits the program area" 18:01:03 it would exit if the instruction pointer would reach the left side or the up side 18:01:11 mm, ok 18:01:20 it goes off into infinity then ;) 18:01:25 yeah 18:01:31 depending on interpreter ;) 18:02:01 the field is infinite to down, and right 18:03:25 how would you perform calculations in this? 18:03:58 well, how do i know! 18:04:05 but it should be possible ;) 18:04:15 you just move byte values around 18:04:33 use '=' instruction and '.' and '*' 18:04:43 ... 18:04:51 seriously, 18:05:03 you for example set 100 cells to 1 18:05:33 ..and well, it's really hard.. lol 18:06:02 it's basically the same than a brainfuck version that uses bits only 18:06:09 i think 18:07:26 anyways; i need to go for a while.. bbl 18:07:30 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 18:18:40 * grim_ is away doon the pub for a bit 18:59:47 -!- Keymaker has joined. 19:02:31 away for a while.. bbl.. 19:02:33 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 19:07:10 -!- grim__ has joined. 19:09:40 Gasp! 19:09:47 Grim underscore /underscore/! 19:09:55 Grim underscore's /evil/ twin! 19:14:03 -!- grim___ has joined. 19:14:43 woha Grim underscore's underscore's even more evil twin! 19:14:49 bbl 19:15:09 OMFG!!!!!!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES, IT'S GRIM UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE UNDERSCORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 19:15:19 * GregorR hides. 19:18:40 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:26:38 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:54:26 -!- grim_ has joined. 20:06:18 -!- grim__ has joined. 20:06:59 -!- grim___ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:12:04 -!- puzzlet has quit (Client Quit). 20:12:32 -!- puzzlet has joined. 20:18:52 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:21:39 -!- Keymaker has joined. 20:21:54 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:21:57 ha, judging by the logs seems good ol' gregor has lost his medication.. 20:22:00 again 20:22:02 ;) 20:33:08 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:06:04 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 21:06:13 Hey you freaky esolang proggies 21:06:42 hello world! 21:07:12 IRP example program? 21:07:27 noo 21:08:56 Well, you never know 21:11:02 yeah 21:13:18 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:15:49 -!- jix has left (?). 21:23:07 -!- lindi- has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:43:17 -!- lindi- has joined. 22:08:36 -!- Arrogant has joined. 22:35:11 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 22:35:56 I think my ISP has a mental disorder 22:37:53 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:38:14 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 22:39:06 yeah 22:40:07 Anyone remember the windows game Stars! ? 22:41:17 nope 22:42:25 It was kinda fun. I played it with some friends back when computers were still novel. PCs were a couple decades old, but this was still before the computer-in-every-house assumption. 22:43:07 Now that I live in North Carolina, I have to revise my opinion of that as well (plenty of places DONT have computers in every house... ?!) I grew up in one of the most wired cities in the US 22:46:00 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:46:21 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 22:50:03 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:08:41 bye. 23:08:44 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 23:49:36 -!- Sgep has joined. 2005-09-24: 00:22:35 -!- calamari has joined. 00:22:46 hi 00:33:07 hi 01:10:24 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 01:10:53 Am I the only one having trouble checking out the logs on meme.b9? 01:11:32 My internet connection has been on the fritz today, and Im trying to keep caught up. 01:17:12 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:17:55 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 01:22:46 halcyon.. yeah doesn't seem to be loading 01:23:46 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/05.09.23 01:23:49 that works tho 01:26:55 Thanks Calamari 01:28:51 np 01:29:23 Phew, nothing new. I hate missing out on stuff 01:29:28 * calamari got the new console working.. of course to do it I had to tear down 10 other things 01:30:12 the code is definitely better than it was before,.. so I'm happy 01:30:28 I think you're really in love with your esoshell 01:30:45 -!- cmeme has joined. 01:30:54 it won't even compile on gcj now tho :) 01:31:31 halcyon: it feels like the OS project that I wanted to have last semester, but was denied 01:31:56 waste of a class 01:36:32 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:36:56 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 01:40:08 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:40:28 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 01:42:39 -!- Arrogant has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Go on, try it!"). 01:46:26 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:46:51 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 01:50:46 Calamari, why wont it compil on gcj now? 01:54:32 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:54:59 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 01:56:23 Alright.. I dont think this is going to work well tonight. I'm callin it an evening. G'night folks. 01:56:39 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Client Quit). 01:59:25 -!- Sgep has quit. 02:01:55 -!- grim_ has joined. 02:12:28 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:21:25 -!- grim__ has joined. 02:28:24 -!- grim_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:09:08 -!- grim__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:21:14 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 04:23:47 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:38:46 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:56:53 Let us initiate a conversation. 07:07:00 No. 07:08:05 Clearly :-P 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:18:44 -!- calamari has joined. 08:25:14 I can't think of a good idea for a new esolang. 08:27:45 hehe 08:28:14 that reminds me of 7th or 8th grade where I ran out of ideas for things to program 08:29:04 I just recently wrote a cool web version of a card game 8-D 08:29:26 url? 08:29:34 http://www.codu.org/crackpipe/ol/ 08:30:56 A card game ... that I was a codeveloper of :-P 08:35:20 I clicked a few cards, but I guess I'd need to learn the rules and get cable :) 08:35:32 Heheh 08:35:37 http://www.codu.org/crackpipe/ < the rules 08:36:03 And hopefully the speed of your connection shouldn't be too much of a problem ... 08:36:42 I'm downloading the java jdk 1.22 atm, so that's really why it was slow 08:36:48 Ah 08:36:57 Umm, isn't JDK 1.22 rather olde? 08:37:04 yeah 08:37:10 So why 1.22? 08:37:18 And why that particular esoteric programming langugae? 08:37:20 *language 08:37:36 because it seems more reasonable as far as classpath / gcj are concerned 08:37:53 Ah 08:38:08 if it works in 1.22 then if it doesn't in the others, oh well :) 08:59:17 -!- grim_ has joined. 09:56:54 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 10:35:04 -!- jix has joined. 12:13:00 -!- Keymaker has joined. 12:13:11 'ello 12:13:37 grrh, i can never remember how c works -- 12:13:58 if there is int a[100] before main(), will all a-cells be 0? 12:14:14 or did it have to be inside main()? i can never remember this 12:14:38 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:15:25 Keymaker: i always memset it to be sure it is zero 12:15:51 aha 12:16:11 i'm too lazy to do that :} 13:07:09 jix: any idea how i could store text into array? including new lines 13:07:17 like when the program starts 13:07:28 it would set data to array 13:07:47 i mean without {44,22,33} way 16:09:17 -!- nooga has joined. 16:09:22 hello 16:09:47 hello 16:11:42 haskell is a funny language 16:12:11 i like the type system 16:15:18 heh 16:20:00 i just edited my user: page in the wiki ;p 16:21:09 good 16:25:10 now 16:25:20 i'll update SADOL's page 16:25:26 ok 16:27:46 oh, and maybe write 99bottles ... ;] 16:28:59 cool 16:32:04 ok, i made a digital root calculator in befunge. it's not as cool as the 9-character one that's in esowiki, but this mine uses the other input way -- the one in esowiki asks user to input a value, this reads value as ascii and so on; 16:32:06 > > ~ :#v_$68*+v 16:32:06 ^%9_^#`9:+-*86<@,*52,< 16:32:47 hmm, i hope this opera irc client didn't parse spaces.. 16:35:01 in case it did, just add the needed spaces there to get the up pointing arrows connected with the left going. 16:38:59 i think it's correct 16:39:31 ok, good. i just couldn't check since the logs archive didn't work for some reason.. 16:47:18 heh 16:47:26 g2g 16:47:29 bye 16:47:44 bye 16:47:48 -!- nooga has quit. 16:48:00 on a sidenote, i need to go too.. :\ 16:48:01 bbl 16:48:04 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 17:29:55 -!- nooga has joined. 17:30:01 hi :-) 17:34:51 -!- nooga has quit ("leaving"). 17:47:24 -!- nooga has joined. 17:47:27 :D 17:47:34 tokigun: r u there 17:47:36 ' 17:47:38 ?? 18:17:50 -!- nooga has quit ("Lost terminal"). 19:19:20 -!- sp3tt has joined. 19:20:59 -!- sp3tt has quit (Client Quit). 19:43:33 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 19:45:38 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:47:02 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 21:26:09 I'm thinking of writing a short essay on the esolang community and submitting it to a literary magazine 21:26:18 good idea 21:26:38 although, why? 21:26:44 if you don't mind my asking? ;) 21:27:59 Just.. its an iteresting group, with an interesting design philosophy 21:28:27 Its almost as if hackers have a sort of post-modern counter culture 21:29:23 I was thinking of doing interviews with some of the more well-known developers and programmers [in the genre] 21:29:47 I guess I'm interested in what sort of audience there would be 21:30:12 it seems to me an even more obscure topic than esolangs are themselves 21:30:28 but hey, you seem to know what you want to say 21:30:58 I like the idea of a post-modern counter-culture to hackers :) 21:31:21 I guess the intended audience would be a bunch of people who aren't terribly familiar with programming 21:31:54 Have you ever heard of McSweeny's? 21:36:02 The article will be like a serious look at esolangs. Why they're closer to programming as an art medium, and a means of self-expression with a valued and complex diversity 21:37:59 Why is it that, as a community, we're generally concerned with more ways of solving problems (writing new esolangs to "compute" hello world) than solving more complex problems using the same tools? 21:39:53 ... probably because its simply more difficult to write a BF operating system. 21:40:51 Anyhow, I have an incredibly crappy un-fulfilling job to go to now. 21:42:01 Talk with you all when Im free of my customer service personal hell 21:42:41 oh dear 21:42:47 bad luck dude 21:59:38 -!- calamari has joined. 21:59:52 hi 22:08:09 -!- grim_ has left (?). 22:59:28 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 23:23:35 -!- int-e has joined. 2005-09-25: 00:38:05 -!- Keymaker has joined. 00:38:21 hi 00:38:45 wildhalcyon: great idea 00:44:12 -!- jix has left (?). 02:02:07 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 02:07:56 -!- int-e has left (?). 02:33:57 -!- calamari has joined. 02:52:02 hi 02:57:00 how about this bf-derivative language (3 instructions, cells are 1-bit): > { and ^, where > = >, { = <+, ^ = skip the next instruction. The program is executed in a loop, +[ ... ] 02:57:33 I'm no sure if skip next is powerful enough for the if statement 03:00:35 err I meant ^ = skip the next instr if byte is 0 03:17:54 Hmm, there's an OISC that uses skip-if-negative.. maybe that can be turned into a cryptic 1-bit brainfuck derivative? 03:20:49 Im not sure if skip-next-if-0 is powerful enough either. I think my "skip next n-instructions" and allowing n to be negative instruction WAS TC, but.. it was wayyy difficult to use correctly, since changing the code by one meant rewriting all the loops by 1 too, which changed how long THEY needed to be in proportion. It was a big mess. 03:22:27 yeah, I'll probably code up some samples and see what happens 03:23:06 my new console routines are super slow :( 03:23:40 not sure where the input went wrong, but I can understand the output, since it's css+html 03:43:43 cool, fixed the input problem 03:48:13 yay, cuz I had no idea how to help with that :-( 03:49:38 yeah, I was using a pipe where I didn't really need to 03:50:23 the pipe code had a blocking delay that was making the input sluggish 03:51:30 now the question is whether the generation of the screen is slow, or the draw is slow 03:54:01 you know, pipe smoking is supposed to be just as bad as cigarettes 03:54:18 except that pipe tobacco is like a million times healthier in terms of chemical compounds. 03:54:27 ahh, definitely the drawing time 03:54:37 the html generation is way fast :) 04:53:03 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 05:16:42 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:22:40 -!- cmeme has joined. 05:30:25 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:30:34 -!- calamari has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:08:32 -!- nooga has joined. 09:08:38 hi 09:28:49 ha 09:28:52 hu 09:28:54 ho ;p 09:36:34 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:55:27 -!- jix has joined. 10:31:20 what do you think for a name for a language: o-o ? 10:31:32 tfu 10:31:40 what do you think *about* a name for a language: o-o ? 10:32:28 hmm 10:46:38 -!- calamari has joined. 11:09:11 * nooga just watched a film 11:09:14 hypercube 11:10:00 do you feel more 4 dimensional? 11:10:07 :) 11:10:19 now i want to make a 4-dimensional esolang :) 11:10:28 I've never seen hypercube.. any good? 11:10:54 the film was quite boring 11:11:21 the first part - 'cube' was better IMHO 11:11:43 ahh.. never seen that one either 11:11:49 well, bedtime :) 11:11:52 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 11:11:54 goodnight 11:11:57 um ;p 11:53:26 -!- Keymaker has joined. 11:53:37 nooga: man, hypercube's one of my favourite movies 11:53:47 i like it much more than the first part 'the cube' 11:55:45 http://agentj.kewlnet.int.pl/wysypisko/uploads/oo.txt 11:58:10 umm 11:58:12 unfinshed 11:59:28 what do you think? 12:04:23 sorry, no time to read just now 12:04:28 the simpsons start soon! 12:04:37 i'll read it when it ends and comment then 12:04:40 see in half a hour.. 12:06:42 bye 12:22:06 -!- nooga has quit. 13:45:15 ok, it took a bit more time but not my own fault.. 13:45:20 anyways, it seems interesting 13:52:12 ..anyone know whe feeling when you're supposed to do something other but you just rather spend the time doing something you're interested? 14:09:35 yes... 14:09:59 i should do my homework 14:10:02 but... 14:10:05 ;) 14:25:22 :) 15:09:18 well, off i go.. 15:09:20 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 16:24:28 -!- int-e has joined. 17:26:17 -!- int-e has left (?). 17:29:04 -!- CXI has joined. 17:29:19 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:29:35 -!- CXI has joined. 19:19:57 -!- nooga has joined. 19:20:21 hi 19:30:02 -!- pgimeno has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:30:02 -!- puzzlet has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:30:02 -!- lindi- has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:30:06 -!- cmeme has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:30:07 -!- tokigun has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:30:08 -!- CXI has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:30:08 -!- nooga has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:30:08 -!- cpressey has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:33:53 -!- nooga has joined. 19:33:53 -!- CXI has joined. 19:33:53 -!- cmeme has joined. 19:33:53 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:33:53 -!- lindi- has joined. 19:33:53 -!- pgimeno has joined. 19:33:53 -!- tokigun has joined. 19:33:53 -!- cpressey has joined. 19:39:50 em 19:39:55 hi? 19:41:36 hi 20:39:15 -!- kipple has joined. 21:03:49 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:18:58 heh* 21:21:26 my dad said: 'May I use your computer for a while?' 21:21:34 it was 20:30 21:28:22 when I use a computer for "a while" it frequently last longer than that... 21:28:38 then again, I don' 21:28:49 t know what timezone you're in... 21:29:07 i have 10 PM 21:29:18 ha! me too :) 21:29:33 ha, you're in Norway 21:29:46 im in Poland 21:29:47 you're right 21:29:50 -.-' 21:30:16 the wiki strikes again ? 21:58:16 -!- nooga has quit. 22:52:24 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:55:42 -!- kipple has joined. 2005-09-26: 00:09:51 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 00:09:59 hey all 00:10:04 hi 00:10:21 Gah, what a horrible weekend. Did I miss anything fun? 00:10:31 don't know. been away 00:11:21 Sounds like fun 00:11:32 haha 00:12:16 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:13:01 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 00:53:39 W: is there a standard file extension for glypho files? 01:45:04 KIPPLE, ASCII, PROBABLY 01:45:12 ack, sorry bout the caps 01:45:24 good ol' text 01:45:46 I meant: do you call them hello.g, hello.glypho or something else? 01:46:09 anyway, I've rewritten my kipple-interpreter to a Glypho shorthand interpreter 01:46:40 cool kipple - haven't come up with an extension yet 01:47:06 .gly probably - then a lot of files will be named "u.gly" 01:47:13 haha 01:47:41 actually, you need to extensions. one for proper glypho and one for shorthand 01:48:02 .gsh for shorthand I guess 01:48:36 Im sorry my C interpreter isn't out yet. Been kind of pressed for time, work & study 01:49:08 np. didn't take long to convert my kipple interpreter 01:50:12 That's good. Kipple uses stacks? 01:50:16 yes 01:51:00 Im sorry, been a while since I looked at the spec 01:51:20 I liked the language. Its got good flavor 01:53:44 what happens when you reverse instruction flow? are < and > inverted? 01:55:09 As of right now, I think its ready to be symbolic reversal, and we'll just see what happens ;-) 01:55:40 not sure what you mean... 01:56:17 Take the underlying symbols of each instruction and reverse them, as well as reversing the instruction flow 01:56:38 ok. so < and > are not inverted then? 01:56:55 but [ and ] has to be inverted at least, no? 01:58:02 Well, < and > are, as are [ and ], i and o, and ! and 1 01:58:07 the rest are the same 01:58:47 hmm. this complicates the interpreter a lot ;) 01:59:14 since I'm working with shorthand and not the patterns 02:00:24 Well, the nice thing is that you dont NEED to know the patterns 02:00:39 just know that those four sets are reversals, while the other seven instructions stay the same 02:00:44 yes 02:00:57 have a boolean "is_reverse" value, and if its true, swap the instruction tables 02:01:14 yes, that's what I'm doing 02:01:26 I guess "a lot" was a bit of an overstatement 02:01:37 ok 02:01:54 To be honest, Im not certain its a really useful instruction. I just.. didnt know what else to do with it 02:02:13 it can be a lot of fun 02:02:16 I think.... 02:04:37 Im actually finding it difficult to code with... 02:04:59 yes. but that can be agood thing :) 02:05:21 I suppose so 02:05:22 do you have a working program using it? 02:06:01 The original reason I introduced the instruction was to let the program end... early, by reeversing to the beginning 02:06:08 I don't have one yet, no 02:06:30 ok. I'll write one then. need to test that the interpreter works 02:07:08 so ! is the opposite of 1 and not +? 02:07:19 yes,exactly. 02:08:43 and + is not the opposite of - 02:17:17 Please, bring me up to date. 02:17:38 * kipple brings GregorR up to date 02:17:57 Thank you! 02:18:02 That was quick and painless! 02:19:01 you missed a lot 02:19:06 W: you're right that r is hard to program with 02:19:14 told you!!! 02:19:46 Damn. 02:19:48 Clearly. 02:20:28 the best thing I could come up with was: 111[!r+1] which doesn't really do mch 02:20:30 much 02:20:46 -!- cmeme has quit (Connection timed out). 02:22:14 are you sure that one works? I get an empty stack exception 02:23:23 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:25:48 I don't see how that loop can ever terminate. It will just empty the stack, and then crash 02:28:01 Shouldn't.. remember, you need to reverse instruction flow during reverse too 02:30:59 so, if you "unfold" it without the reverse symbol, you should get 111!1!++1!1!++1!1!++... hmm, no, you're right 02:31:07 it eventually gets stuck 02:31:27 but... what would I do without reverse. I'd have 14 instructions! I'd.. be screwed 02:31:47 r == rand? 02:32:07 * Wildhalcyon loathes himself for his lack of certainty 02:32:17 as I understand it the second + will try to add with only one number on the stack 02:32:47 r might still be useful. just don't know how :) 02:34:33 random is also a useful instruction 02:40:10 I know, and in some cases much valued, but... is it right for glypho? I don't see how reverse can POSSIBLY be useful without doing something useful itself 02:42:50 well, I'm off to bed now. let me know if you make a decision :) 02:43:03 g'night kipple 02:44:19 well crap 02:44:47 crap? what? 03:17:05 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:20:20 -!- GregorR has joined. 03:49:09 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:20:03 -!- Arrogant has joined. 04:58:41 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:00:22 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:26:14 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:26:24 -!- Arrogant has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-"). 05:33:47 -!- GregorR has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 10:55:53 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 12:14:14 -!- kipple has joined. 13:48:14 -!- {^Raven^} has joined. 16:02:20 -!- nooga has joined. 16:02:25 hi 16:11:30 -!- jix has joined. 16:18:18 hi jix 16:19:21 moin 16:34:07 hello 16:48:20 -!- J|x has joined. 17:02:09 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:10:07 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:41:22 -!- nooga has quit. 17:59:04 -!- J|x has changed nick to jix. 17:59:06 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:01:24 -!- kipple has joined. 18:31:37 -!- cmeme has quit (Connection timed out). 18:38:10 -!- cmeme has joined. 18:39:04 -!- fungebob has joined. 19:43:31 -!- fungebob has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:27:40 -!- lindi- has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:39:07 -!- lindi- has joined. 21:19:24 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:32:07 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:03:11 -!- cmeme has joined. 22:51:50 http://www.expertrating.com/jobs/Programming-jobs/Befunge-Programmer-jobs.asp 22:52:30 LOL 22:53:03 Man, that automatic page generator is stuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuupide 22:53:10 So stupid it makes me spell stupid as stupide. 22:57:04 they have INTERCAL too: http://www.expertrating.com/jobs/Programming-jobs/Intercal-Programmer-jobs.asp :D 22:58:49 lol] 22:59:00 but no bf :( 22:59:34 Nor kipple ;) 22:59:40 boo 23:01:33 <300-foot-high-letters>WTF 23:01:53 heh. getting such a nice looking certificate would almost be worth the $10 just for the humor value 23:02:22 I am a certified Befunge programmer! 23:02:26 Yay! 23:02:28 :-P 23:03:13 This site is US friendly - Hosted in the US - Payments in US Dollars - Payments received in the US through a US based payment processor <--- yeah duh who else would use such spammy looking site :p 23:04:30 it is located in the UK though 23:04:37 hmm lol 23:05:37 * Aardwolf gonna take the free Computer Skills Test 23:06:09 * Aardwolf is too lazy to fill in the email adress form so won't take the test anyway 23:37:08 Wow, you're too lazy to type an email address so you're not going to take the test, how could you possibly have filled out that entire test form? 23:38:25 good point, but yeah I'm always too lazy to fill in email forms, I mean all those stupid sites requiring you to make an account to take 1 dumb test 23:38:26 since he wasn't too lazy to write a whole sentence about it here, I assume his email address is extremely long 23:39:16 just keep around an account for that purpose 23:39:37 you don't have to make a new one each time 23:40:09 Aardwolf's email address: IAmAardwolfTheProgrammerOfEsotericLanguagesAndPerpetratorOfEmailsTooLongToRemember4546327859623793465789436257043265798042365783274803265704999036254789032430548903254321754089325748902564891065419078654890175489027503891754890237@server5435432.pop3.mail.aardwolfswebsiteaboutnothinginparticular.com 23:41:09 hmm. what characters are allowed in email addresses? can one use stuff like +, < or ] ? 23:41:21 I'm pretty sure it's alphanumeric + _ 23:41:24 I think even - is illegal. 23:41:32 No wait, I've seen +s ... 23:41:32 ok 23:41:48 And I know .s are OK :-P 23:41:54 OK, I have no clue, why am I talking? 23:43:04 So we need a BF variant that uses alphanumeric characters instead of +, <, ] and so on 23:45:32 We have one: PlusPlusLessthansymbolLeftbracket 23:45:36 :P 23:45:49 64 chars max... 23:45:55 Awwwww :( 23:46:58 ? 23:47:17 allowed chars are alphanumeric plus !#$%&'*+-/=?^_`{}|~ (according to rfc2822) 23:47:52 many email addresses have a . in them 23:48:03 well, plus that one :) 23:48:08 lol 23:50:07 I tried to create an address +++ at my domain provider, but it didn't work :( 23:52:10 hmm. I managed to create the address .@krokodille.com. I wonder if it will work.... 2005-09-27: 00:04:32 lol 00:04:34 Output 00:04:36 :P 00:25:19 ha! it actually worked :D 00:50:31 cool! 00:50:35 im off bye 00:50:38 -!- Aardwolf has quit ("Ik zen der is mee weg"). 01:20:50 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:21:11 -!- CXI has joined. 04:18:23 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:22:20 That was some tasty imitation Chinese food. 04:40:50 -!- Arrogant has joined. 05:10:45 * {^Raven^} continues lurking in the background 05:12:07 <{^Raven^}> *shadows 06:27:16 -!- Arrogant has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- 100,000+ downloads can't be wrong"). 06:37:42 -!- cpressey has quit ("leaving"). 07:15:56 -!- calamari has joined. 07:15:59 hi 07:18:58 -!- cpressey has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:33:41 -!- jix has joined. 10:04:45 -!- calamari has quit (Connection timed out). 12:46:03 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 13:46:30 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 13:46:35 Hey all 13:47:18 hey wildhalcyon 13:47:30 How are you Jix? 13:48:13 I miss my computer. :-( without internet, its a cheap screensaver 13:48:43 i have a cold 13:49:23 oohh, that sucks 13:49:37 yes.. it does 13:49:43 Im putting off studying for my midterm in 45 minutes :-D 13:52:28 mostly because I actually HAVE internet while Im in my lab on campus 13:52:44 -!- kipple has joined. 13:53:37 jix: Kipple and I were having some issues with a symbol-wise reverse operator. I'm thinking that its a fairly useless appendage instruction that could be better replaced by something more powerful (read: esoteric) 13:53:44 This is all in glypho, mind you 13:54:22 hmm what's the latest glypho spec? 13:55:30 It hasn't changed since adding the brackets 13:55:47 my interpreter is out of date... 13:55:55 But we were looking at implementing it, and he wanted an example of a program that uses reverse, and I didn't have one 13:56:14 I know, and its not your fault jix, its my fault, me and my indecisiveness 13:57:19 maybe add a gcd operation 13:57:45 that makes implementing of rational numbers easier 13:59:08 I like rational numbers 13:59:34 I was think maybe a modulo operator 13:59:52 No division operation, mind you, just modulo 14:00:18 modulu is easy to implement with test and sub 14:00:54 Yes, it is 14:01:41 Hence, integer division is easy as well 14:02:07 gcd is easy too 14:02:14 hmmm COSine! 14:02:21 so, those aren't very good 14:02:25 cos(x)*10000 14:02:42 cos(x)*2^32 14:02:56 ok 14:03:05 nahr 14:03:12 cos(x)*(2^32-1) 14:03:27 probably better 14:03:48 cos(x)*(2^32-0.5)-0.5 ? 14:04:25 Im{e^ix} 14:04:46 no, not e... Im{i^(ix)} 14:05:10 hm? 14:05:16 why not e? 14:05:20 filling in a needless extra instruction is hard! 14:05:33 I don't know, e seems too conventional 14:05:39 1/2*(e^ix+e^-ix) 14:05:56 thats just COS again 14:06:04 hrhr yes 14:06:12 1/2*(e^x+e^-x) 14:06:24 cosh.... 14:07:26 What about replacing n with Bn, where Bn is the nth Bell Number (related to the symbol-less encoding Im using) 14:07:34 except that they grow very large very quickly 14:09:58 bbl, gotta take a test... 15:14:36 I think a random function would be nice. That's something that can't be done with the current set 15:15:41 something like: random: pops two values from the stack and pushes a random number in the range specified by the two popped values 15:31:01 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:31:21 -!- CXI has joined. 15:34:22 -!- Aardwolf has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:08:07 -!- sp3tt has joined. 16:12:17 kipple: all you would need to do is pop one variable for the size of the range, and then add the minimum to the size 16:13:26 rngs are nice, but it leaves open the possibility of someone implementing the instruction in an incredibly stupid manner. Plus, it would be the only non-deterministic instruction in the whole set 16:14:54 We'll see. I'm going to go home and find out if I have internet again (or if I'll ever have internet again, ever.) 16:15:02 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 17:11:21 -!- nooga has joined. 17:11:25 hello 17:14:49 -!- Keymaker has joined. 17:14:55 good mornin' 17:14:58 moin nooga, Keymaker 17:15:03 moin 17:15:10 hi Keymaker 17:15:12 (or actually it's 19 pm here but who cares..) 17:15:12 hi 17:15:33 lol, i mean 7 pm 17:15:49 i've got 18:15 17:15:52 i always use am and pm with the format that doesn't use them :) 17:16:00 ok 17:16:05 i like 24h format 17:16:08 yes 17:16:12 it's more natural for me 17:16:18 yes, for me too 17:16:26 but i still add am and pm there for some reason :) 17:16:34 but well, my days are 48 hours ;) 17:16:41 :> 17:17:24 18:16 here 17:17:59 18:17:0118:16 here 17:18:01 d'oh 17:18:15 hehe 17:18:56 now i'm thinkin' about my new language - o-o 17:19:12 here's what i've got for now: http://agentj.kewlnet.int.pl/wysypisko/uploads/oo.txt 17:19:14 o-o == 0 17:20:02 it's more like: oo 17:20:15 o—o ? 17:20:47 what? i can see only some werid signs... 17:20:57 i'm using utf8 17:21:26 it was o—o 17:22:10 mhm 17:22:59 lol in ndash has the same length as n but mdash is too large 17:23:11 in lucida grande it's the other way around 17:23:48 i think that each node in o-o should have additional stack for internal use 17:24:01 hah 17:35:32 i've got tolearn ruby 17:36:17 yeah, that could be useful 17:36:22 (for me too) 17:37:33 from those interpreted langs i know perl, python a bit, and PHP 17:37:40 q: what does if 0;puts "Hello";end in ruby 17:38:12 a: prints "Hello"? 17:38:19 right 17:39:00 everything except nil and false evaluates to true in conditions 17:39:23 and everything (including nil) is an object 17:40:33 woh 17:42:01 classes are objects too 17:42:40 and the Class object is an instance of itself 17:43:02 is puts like echo in php? 17:43:17 Keymaker: no... print is like echo 17:43:25 ok.. 17:43:31 puts "Hello" == puts "Hello\n" 17:43:37 ah, ok 17:43:44 puts checks for a \n at the end of a string and if it is missing it appends one 17:43:53 ok 17:43:59 what taht 0; does? 17:44:02 *that 17:44:28 replace ; with \n (ruby needs no ; only if you put more than 1 lines on one line) 17:45:11 it's like if(0)printf("Hello\n"); in c (with the difference that in c 0 == false in ruby 0 (in conditions) == true) 17:46:47 oh 17:47:29 is Ruby one of those langauges which have only one false value, i.e. "False"? 17:47:40 no false and nil 17:47:51 same effect 17:47:59 yes 17:53:18 if you want to check a number for zero just use if bla.zero? 18:14:25 hmm.. i need name 18:17:32 is it possible to have a turing complete prorgamming language where & is the only operation? 18:17:46 probably not 18:17:50 no 18:18:06 or wait.. 18:18:12 not sure :) 18:18:16 what if I added a stack, and made & a stack function? 18:19:12 not sure. as far as i know there must be way to move back or jump some part in the program. as well as access memory other than single stack 18:19:42 hmm 18:20:06 ..but limited languages are interesting, so go ahead and try :D 18:20:17 I might 18:20:24 o-k 18:21:13 it can be often(?) that languages that aren't planned to be turing-complete happen to be (or vice versa) 18:21:15 you need ~(a & b) (nand) for turing completeness and ram and conditional or computed code jumps 18:21:32 for tc 18:21:54 why not-and? 18:22:39 *not(and) 18:33:01 hmmm, i wonder if i should add two stacks to my language, to make sure it is turing-complete. i'm really not sure at all if reversing the stack instruction will make it suitable for being tc 18:36:25 or well, i'll try first making programs with only one reversible stack and see if the other is necessary. 18:37:10 jix: would you have time to write another interpreter ;) (in c if possible) 18:39:07 ..but there's no hurry.. 18:39:21 i think i'll need to do changes again.. 18:40:43 anyways, going now.. 18:40:46 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 18:46:54 jix: rem conditional? 18:46:58 s/rem/ram/ 19:12:23 would an implicit loop work to replace being able to jump in the code? 19:13:48 yes 19:19:24 hm 19:19:28 so 19:19:38 what do you guys think about o-o? 19:19:45 in it's current shape? 19:19:52 some suggestions? 19:19:52 object orientation? 19:20:11 o-o language ;p 19:20:21 http://agentj.kewlnet.int.pl/wysypisko/uploads/oo.txt 19:20:21 not familiar 19:20:55 well.. first off, you need some line-breaks in your web-page 19:21:19 eh, it's a txt file 19:21:25 but if you really want... 19:21:40 some browsers (like mine) doesn't wrap lines in txt files :( 19:21:49 mine either 19:22:11 oh damnit 19:22:15 wait a sec 19:28:33 nooga.kewlnet.int.pl/oo.html 19:28:37 http://nooga.kewlnet.int.pl/oo.html 19:28:42 here ;p 19:29:30 a bit better 19:29:38 ~~~;p 19:30:38 haaaah, damnit! 19:30:41 got 2 go 19:30:44 bye 19:51:13 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:00:18 -!- sp3tt has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:08:44 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 20:09:12 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:09:25 Haha! my internet not only works, it works WELL! 20:12:03 -!- kipple has joined. 20:17:24 i'm stupid 20:17:35 i'm typing 5 lines of irc msgs into my c source 20:24:04 i'm working on a ultimate compressor 20:25:57 a rangecoder with a super-intielligent (stupid) model 20:33:43 in a threadsafe flexible library 20:33:48 and no one cares :( 20:38:35 there is no irc channel about compression 20:38:55 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:39:09 21:09:04Haha! my internet not only works, it works WELL! << really? 20:46:42 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:45:35 would a command to jump to the beginning of a program be touring complete? 21:45:47 it would be like tail recursion 21:45:58 or a state machine 22:02:41 twobitsprite: how can a command be turing complete or not? 22:12:06 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 22:12:24 Blam! 22:14:17 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 22:15:44 Kaboom! 22:17:00 yeah, something akin to that 22:19:52 I think Transcipt needs some method of manipulating input strings 22:24:52 agreed. there's not much string manipulation that can be done 22:26:08 another suggestion for the 15th Glypho op: output top value as ASCII 22:27:00 or pop value, convert to ASCII, then push again 22:30:06 Wouldn't that just be /too easy/? 22:30:23 perhaps 22:31:26 maybe, just maybe 22:31:44 extremely useful in any case :) 22:32:10 Im thinking of just keeping it a "free-for-all" implementation-dependent instruction 22:32:22 hehe. interesting 22:32:57 an Undefined behavior instruction ;) 22:32:58 Humm.. 22:33:22 But then what happens when the proprietary implementation from Microsoft has a useful command and everybody gloms onto it? 22:33:43 then Wildhalcyen gets stinkin' rich 22:33:49 wouldn't want that to happen 22:33:51 muahahahaha! 22:34:20 we wouldn't? 22:34:27 No he wouldn't! 22:34:32 That's the whole problem! 22:34:38 hmm... kipple, I value your input, but not this time! 22:34:47 oh.. 22:34:49 hmm 22:35:01 Micro$oft would get stinkin' richer. 22:35:09 And Wildhalcyon would get stinkin' credit but no $$$ :-P 22:35:12 dumb microsuck 22:35:35 I like street cred 22:35:53 But it's street cred associated with Microsoft. 22:35:57 ewww 22:36:07 get it off! get it off!!! 22:36:09 That's like the street cred from being a Visual Basic guru :-P 22:36:14 haha 22:36:26 hahaha 22:36:54 * kipple writes C# and a bit of VB for a living.... 22:37:08 * GregorR-L vomits. 22:37:15 * GregorR-L wipes his mouth. 22:37:23 * GregorR-L writes PHP and a bit of C for a living! 22:37:53 VB sucks, but C# is actually quite nice (except for the microsoft issue) 22:37:55 lol, hmm.. vicious fight breaks 22:38:24 out* 22:38:24 * GregorR-L wonders what that means. 22:38:29 Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 22:38:39 C# is an insult to music :-P 22:38:54 hehe 22:38:55 microsoft is an insult to small, plyable objects 22:39:01 lol 22:40:06 * kipple is a java fan and C# is pretty close 22:40:22 I had a great one-liner about the "made easy" programming series and somebody's mom, but it didn't pan out. 22:40:37 lol 22:40:53 * Wildhalcyon is *not* a java fan, but respects the need to develop a platform independent programming language 22:40:59 Wildhalcyon was working on it in his joke lab in the basement, but a lab accident caused an explosion that killed ... his MOM AHAHAHAHAHA 22:41:51 he said *somebody's mom*, not his. the question is: what was she doing in his basement? 22:42:10 Wildhalcyon: There are plenty of platform independent programming languages ... just most of them compile to platform specific machine code. 22:42:44 Sadly, Gregor assumes that I am rich enough to afford a basement, and am not, as reality would like to object, forced to keep his outdated computer in the livingroom, next to the television. 22:43:06 java applets are very nice for the web, and the only competition there (that I'm aware of) is Flash... 22:43:12 Gregor: then whats the advantage of Java? 22:43:41 applets could easily be superceded by Gammaplex applets imo 22:43:54 define "easlily" ;) 22:43:56 now THAT'S a programming language 22:44:42 Wildhalcyon: Java sports a platform independent virtual machine, that's what. 22:44:52 kipple: simply port every known applet everywhere into esoteric Gammaplex, then write a gammaplex applet extension for every version of every popular web browser 22:45:07 If somebody made a virtual platform that one could compile C to, then made VMs for major platforms, it would work just as well. 22:45:18 (Except that Java is made to be especially suited for a VM) 22:45:36 I understand that much, I just think its too clunky. 22:46:26 * GregorR-L starts work on the CVM :-P 22:46:28 When I bought visual studio my freshman year of college, it came with a giant poster indentifying all the classes and their inheritance characteristics. Yuck. 22:46:40 Isnt there a Forth or Joy VM? 22:48:03 Idonno *shrugs* 22:48:32 Forth is a d ecent language, 22:48:43 I think it needs improvements, but its got a nice foundation 22:50:17 one of the nice things about the Java VM (or microsofts CLR for that matter) is that they're not bound to a specific language. there are several compilers for other langs to java bytecode 22:57:07 a multiple esolang to java byte code compiler would be cool 22:58:09 glypho is easy. Most tarpits are relatively easy to put into higher-level languages 22:58:54 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 2005-09-28: 00:18:01 -!- Arrogant has joined. 00:38:48 -!- ihope has joined. 00:39:38 ...Hello! 00:39:47 hi 00:40:01 Ahoy. 00:40:12 How's the, uh, stuff going? 00:40:22 Whatever you happen to be doing? 00:40:44 a bit slow... :) 00:41:01 Okay. Now just what are you doing? :-) 00:41:25 programming :) 00:41:48 What language? Point-black range? 00:41:56 *blank 00:43:40 C# (don't understand the point-blank thingy) 00:44:06 I'm theorizing another language based on points " 00:44:13 (oops) 00:44:25 Points "." and blanks " " inside ranges "[]" 00:47:26 are those the only symbols? 00:47:36 sounds interesting... are ranges like b/f's loops? 00:48:22 Uh. Yes and yes :-) 00:48:52 I think points will be output and blanks will be nops. 00:49:39 Im still working on retooling glypho, and my fungeoid 00:49:45 Of course, it would require some specialized EsoAPI :-) 00:50:16 ihope: what would "." be outputting? 00:50:16 Ah yes. Glypho :-) 00:50:31 What's under the current cell. 00:50:46 how do change which cell I'm looking at? 00:50:51 That'd be zero normally, so obviously outputting zero must do something fun. 00:51:35 ...Such as moving between cells or changing the current one. 00:52:07 no need to clutter the spec with such details. leave it to the implementation 00:52:14 lol 00:52:22 Ah right :-) 00:52:35 "this character does _something_ and that other character does _something else_"...? 00:52:47 ah, yes. "instruction characteristics left as an exercise to the reader" 00:52:54 Yep. 00:53:19 Just like Easy's I/O "base" instructions. 00:53:34 "the implementation is free to interpret the instruction in whatever way it feels like, provided Turing completeness is achieved" 00:54:03 X: Makes the language Turing-complete. 00:54:12 Glypho's i/o does the same thing - in fact, most languages I've devised do. I don't see any point in restricting the output characteristics of a low-level interpreted language. 00:54:37 Hmm. Maybe I'll actually read the specs :-) 00:54:46 meh 00:55:03 Wait, what language are you talking about reading? 00:55:09 Glypho. 00:55:13 Glypho's spec is abysmally and humiliatingly incomplete 00:55:20 Heh... 00:55:27 I've seen worse 00:55:28 and the "r" instruction is going to be turned into something else, more likely 00:55:32 But surely it's more than the Esolang article! 00:56:05 Okay. I'll "afk" until I can figure out how to do the "away" status this on this IRC client. 00:56:07 It is ihope, I didnt want to place the ENTIRE spec in the wiki article. There's too much fluff 00:56:10 the spec isn't bad. it's contains all you need to implement it 00:56:13 ihope, what client? 00:56:38 kipple" especially since anything NOT mentioned in the spec is free for otheres to do as they please. 00:56:54 hehe. good point 00:57:09 s/"/:/ 00:57:28 I can't type well tonight.. keyboard's in a funky position today. 00:58:38 how about using the r instruction for self-modification? 00:58:57 That could be fun too 00:59:02 Uh. Chatzilla. 00:59:14 ihope, use /away 00:59:26 to return, use /back 00:59:27 Makes sense... 00:59:28 Simple as pie 00:59:38 except Ive tried making pie before. Fairly complex.. :-( 01:00:00 Seeing that picture of fish statues spitting water out of their mouths made me suddenly thirsty... 01:00:17 I could understand 01:02:48 So... how do PC's communicate with their own northbridges? 01:03:13 using the Northbridge Messaging Complex 01:03:43 ...Really? 01:03:45 hehe.. Im just kidding, I really have no clue 01:03:52 :-) 01:04:12 but it sounded good. Especially if I added cool acronyms like NMC and the NMCC - northbridge messaging complex code 01:04:26 Heh... 01:04:42 Okay. Just where does a power supply supply the power, then? 01:05:23 NOT through the NMC, because its strictly for communication purposes 01:06:23 Maybe the southbridge is actually where the CPU is attached, and the northbridge is just put in to throw us off? 01:07:14 hmm.. you're saying that computer design teams ADD complexity as a means of preventing reverse engineering? 01:07:19 INGENIOUS! 01:07:35 And that's why the firmware is written in Malbolge! 01:07:42 I wonder if I could do the same thing with funge code... 01:08:30 hmm. I see a way to exploit the GPL... you could compile all your code to brainfuck before releasing the source... ;) 01:08:59 It says the source code must be "preferable" for modification. 01:09:25 good 01:09:31 Of course, one can "prefer" it to machine code... 01:10:31 well, if didn't want other people to use the code, I'd definately prefer brainfuck to C 01:10:43 Heh. 01:12:21 But... if you don't want other to use it, why GPL it at all? 01:12:25 Hmmm. I think you'd have to have a REALLY sophisticated BF streamliner 01:12:34 Ah right. Bundling. 01:13:06 Then have a C-unstreamliner 01:13:12 like the obfuscator ;-) 01:13:33 I'd like to be able to just compile C into Brainfuck... 01:13:49 Well, yeah, I guess that would be pretty impressive 01:14:00 Hah. Yes indeed... 01:14:41 You'd still have to do some streamlining - getting all the C variables close to one another to minimize BF "random access" 01:14:41 Well, the parental units (I mean mother and father, of course) want Brainfuck to be called something else ;-) 01:15:04 Yep. That's a nice problem with it. 01:15:15 Of course, Brainfuck *is* a problem, no? 01:15:26 yes, ihope, yes it is 01:17:25 * Wildhalcyon thinks the doom movie is going to be ridiculously pathetic. 12-year-olds will eat it up, and maybe some fratboys, but even fans of the video game series will think that the movie is a pathetic hollywood cash-in 01:17:33 * Wildhalcyon is NOT a bitter old man 01:18:29 * ihope is suspicious 01:18:37 ...but in a good way 01:19:10 Well, to offset that clause, let me say that no matter what, the doom movie cannot be any worse than Episode I 01:19:38 * kipple is not sure about that 01:20:19 I know. Both are worrying 01:20:27 It will not be worse than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick... maybe. 01:20:51 Depends on the stick, I say 01:21:19 pencil? Bring it on. Hot poker covered in red-hot thorns? flip a coin! 01:21:21 Whether it's a stick of butter or a memory stick... 01:21:59 I argue that sticks of butter AND memory sticks are not sharp. 01:22:20 An old CPU then. 01:22:38 Hmm, alright 01:23:05 The upcoming Doom movie will be roughly as bad as poking yourself in the eye with an old CPU 01:23:39 I won't watch it then ;-) 01:24:08 Well, of course not, your eye is going to take a while to repair from that incident involving the old CPU 01:24:24 rent it on DVD or something 01:26:21 Anyhow, back ontop something of a topic: I've been thinking of developing a TRANSCRIPT decendent 01:26:30 Ooh! 01:28:01 * kipple thinks that is a good idea 01:28:15 Im trying to figure out how to add functions by moving to different rooms 01:28:22 like "GO EAST"... 01:28:24 >:-) 01:30:28 The problem is that moving to different rooms.. its a temporal action, it wouldn't be as easy to fit it into the "transcript of an IF game" scenario 01:31:51 I think Ive got some ways to implement it, but I'll have to think on it 01:32:07 I'd like the "X" command in Transcript to be changed to "TALK TO". 01:32:32 Erm wait... never mind. 01:32:36 ? 01:32:43 Alrighty\ 01:40:27 -!- ihope has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]"). 02:00:17 -!- Arrogant has quit (" Like VS.net's GUI? Then try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-"). 03:30:53 -!- cmeme has quit (Connection timed out). 03:31:09 is there a bf implementation for palm pilots? 03:37:14 -!- cmeme has joined. 04:00:44 no idea. 04:00:59 I made one for my cell phone, but it didn't work :( 04:01:24 worked in the emulator, so it was difficult to debug 04:03:24 Hmm, that's rough, alright 04:03:42 It'd be sweet to have portable executable bf code 04:21:06 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:28:03 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 05:06:28 -!- Arrogant has joined. 05:50:28 -!- twobitsp1ite has joined. 05:50:32 -!- twobitsprite has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:07:41 -!- Arrogant has quit (" Want to be different? HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-"). 06:32:04 -!- nooga has joined. 06:32:20 hello 06:32:46 Hola. 06:33:42 Que tal? :> 06:33:53 Bueno, y tú? 06:34:09 (Hmm, is there supposed to be a ´ there ...?) 06:34:27 i see only some werid signs :> 06:34:35 lol 06:34:46 nvm 06:35:07 So what's the latest esoteric news in your corner of the universe? 06:35:37 haha, nothing special... 06:35:51 im thinkin about my new language called o-o 06:35:59 Yes, I saw the web page on that. 06:36:42 :) 06:37:25 -!- calamari has joined. 06:37:31 hi 06:38:03 hi calamari 06:38:24 hi nooga 06:38:28 how are you doing? 06:40:01 fine, thank you 06:56:48 -!- nooga has quit. 07:00:18 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:01:23 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:31:44 -!- cmeme has quit (Connection timed out). 07:37:27 -!- cmeme has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:22:55 -!- cmeme has quit (Connection timed out). 08:23:16 -!- cmeme has joined. 09:37:16 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 09:46:40 -!- jix has joined. 10:12:46 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 11:49:25 -!- kipple has joined. 12:51:18 -!- Keymaker has joined. 12:51:25 hmm 12:53:31 where has fizzie gone? 12:53:39 he used to be here all the time.. 12:53:51 at least on summer.. 13:03:20 20050815T114349 <-- fizzie has quit ("Siirretaanpa sahkojohtoa, maalaavat muuten yli sen.") 13:07:01 lol 13:07:16 "let us move the electric cabel, otherwise they will paint over it" 13:07:20 roughly translated :) 13:08:08 * jix is still coding c 13:08:20 :) 13:08:54 there a three ways in c to write "{" (without ...) : "{" "<%" "??<" 13:09:00 cool for obfuscating code 13:09:05 you can mix them too 13:09:14 <% ??> is equivalent to { } 13:09:38 the ??* codes can be used in quotes too because they are converted before the code gets parsed 13:10:18 they where introduced for non ascii machines (afaik) 13:11:08 cool :) 13:12:00 i'm still writing my ultra cool compression algorithm 13:12:18 I know a good compression algorithm: 13:12:28 what are you compressing? text? images? bf-code? 13:12:34 sudo rm -rf / 13:12:36 kipple: anything 13:12:43 you want 13:12:48 it's ultra cool 13:12:49 take all the 0's and 1's of the file, and then store them in a new order: first all the 0's, then all the 1's. Then zip this. Ultra good compression. 13:13:13 Aardwolf: uhrm.. and a decompression too (lossless) 13:13:17 you can't unsort 13:13:43 but bzip2 uses a approach that is a bit like "sorting the file" 13:13:47 jix: sounds cool! 13:14:18 k it was sort of a joke, didn't invent it myself tho 13:14:36 Aardwolf: yeah i know.. but the funny thing is bzip2 sorts the file 13:15:22 but not the bytes by its own value but by the value of all bytes infront of it (with looping back to the byte) 13:15:31 wow 13:15:45 it's a transformation called BWT (Burrow-Wheeler transformation) 13:15:47 and is it better than zlib? 13:15:54 in most cases it is 13:16:12 thats why source.tar.bz2 is smaller than source.tgz 13:18:00 what's like the maximul accelaration a human body can survive? 13:18:04 *maximum 13:18:26 it's slower than the speed of light 13:18:42 accelaration != speed :) 13:18:42 oh accelaration not speed 13:18:56 i just saw that... 13:19:35 its less than speed_of_light/s ;) 13:19:45 I don't think anybody know if a human can survive light speed... (if that is possible at all) 13:19:54 kipple: impossible 13:20:11 I'm making a space game and need a realistic value for the accelaration of the spaceships 13:20:25 Aardwolf: space game AND realistic ?! 13:20:27 jix: according to current theoretical physics, yes (but such things has changed in the past) 13:20:55 kipple: i'm not that into physics 13:21:05 uh, Frontier uses 25g witout problems even if I think that's unrealistic 13:21:08 as realistic as possible without being too boring ;) 13:21:23 anyway there are "workarounds" 13:21:32 but um currently I try it with 1000g and going to the moon is still taking way too long :( 13:21:50 ouch, that'd hurt 13:22:13 speeding up time instead might be better (unless it's multiplayer) 13:22:31 Aardwolf: do a kickstart and start with blabla km/h and than use 1000g 13:22:56 aardwolf: sounds interesting.. what kind of game? 13:23:00 when pushed by a flat, rigid surface the bones would break at much less acceleration 13:23:57 yeah kipple, time speedup is the approach used by Frontier and the rest of the "family" 13:24:06 keymaker: currently I plan it to be somewhat like Frontier: Elite, but you'll also be able to walk around in your spaceship and walk around on planets 13:24:06 wikipedia: "modern pilots can typically handle 9 g (90 m/s²)" 13:24:16 cool 13:24:17 3d? 13:24:23 yes 3D with opengl 13:24:25 nice 13:24:32 I've got a basic Frontier-like 3D engine on my webpage with time acceleration 13:24:35 (btw, never seen or played frontier: elite) 13:24:35 but nothing fancy though, no high-poly things or shiney effects 13:24:47 i'd like to be able to do 3d stuff 13:24:49 Aardwolf: :( 13:25:00 i want cool pixel shader effects! 13:25:06 :) 13:25:08 and smoothed surfaces 13:25:21 in frontier: elite you basically have to fly from star system to star system to trade goods and get more money for better ships and weapons to fight pirates 13:25:29 so what are you coding it in? Deltaplex? 13:25:33 :D 13:25:43 i was just thinking deltaplex.. 13:25:43 lol no, but I'm using the same engine as the one for deltaplex :) 13:26:24 btw I rarely finish a project so I hope I'll finish this one :) 13:26:49 :) 13:27:11 my start finish ratio is 100/1 13:27:16 :) 13:27:18 :) 13:27:36 btw currently there's only an earth and a moon and both look green 13:27:44 for the record, there's a SF novel which suggest placing a mini black hole in the front of the ship to counter the effect of acceleration over the pilot 13:27:58 hehe :) 13:28:18 but how to move the black hole? 13:28:27 hey, it's SF :) 13:28:29 (talking about physics, i should be reading them at the moment.. stupid exam..) 13:28:30 I mean it's so heavy that it would require massive amounts of energy to move :) 13:28:30 Aardwolf: pull it or push it 13:29:01 place another black hole in front of it and let it pull the first one 13:29:22 yeah, they are so easy to move around :) 13:30:14 :D 13:30:39 I wonder if it is theoretically possible to make a lightweight gravity generator 13:34:51 hmm what's the acceleration of a plane when it takes off? 13:36:32 probably 0 13:37:13 i hate physics, i rather like philosophy that says that acceleration doesn't exist 13:46:52 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 13:52:38 'i 13:52:48 moin Wildhalcyon 13:52:58 moin jix 13:53:02 how's things? 13:53:16 :( 13:54:09 why so down sir? 13:54:20 Can't afford the new pda you've been dreaming of? 13:54:28 my compression code is still unfinished and i'm still feeling ill 13:54:36 and i could buy 2 of the pdas 13:54:43 Oh, well.. I have a simple solution jix 13:54:55 hrhr 13:55:13 but i don't want to spend the money on them because i want to buy a new computer 13:55:15 call in sick to work and spend the time working on your compression algorithm 13:55:39 i don't work 13:55:41 what about a tablet PC jix? Its a half-way point 13:55:46 oh, well then whats the problem? 13:55:57 i have to go to school 13:56:11 Ohh, school 13:56:48 stupid gmail keeps telling me the document contains no data, when it *clearly* does. Sometimes the internet bites 13:57:46 yes 13:58:06 I think Im going to develop my transcript derivative to be interactive, like Forth 13:58:46 make it interative like irb 13:58:46 >THERE IS A CUP 13:58:47 You spy a cup that you have never seen before. 13:58:52 (interactive ruby interpreter) 13:59:31 >JOHN IS HERE 13:59:33 You notice John walk into the room. 14:00:05 see? It could be lots of fun - you think.. HEY, Im in an Interactive Fiction game!.. then it turns out that you're not, you're really programming 14:00:31 TELL JOHN TO USE THE CUP (function call) 14:00:42 john has no idea how to use the cup (undefined function) 14:01:07 in order to quit, you'll have to say "THERE IS A DARK LORD OF EVIL" followed by "DEFEAT THE DARK LORD OF EVIL" 14:01:17 you can use the cup to drink (add to the cup function a call to the function drink) 14:01:29 you can use the cup to print "hello, world!" ... 14:01:42 Hmmm, this could have possibilities 14:01:48 how would I code the "drink" function though? 14:02:02 if you want to drink you have to.... 14:02:07 You'd really have to have outside function definitions, not like Forth's define feature 14:02:26 casting function pointers in c is fun! 14:02:45 I like function pointers, except C bastardizes them into something horrific. 14:02:52 rv.read_data = (size_t(*)(void*, size_t, size_t, void*))fread; 14:03:04 AAAHHH!! LOOK AWAY! LOOK AWAY! 14:03:08 * Wildhalcyon looks away 14:03:29 that's a stupid syntax 14:03:50 Stupid? STUPID? It SCREAMS idiocy 14:04:27 haha this car got hacked: http://dimka.ee/foo/audiA8.html 14:04:34 They should have used the @ sign for it 14:04:53 That's cool 14:05:24 Sometimes OOP goes horribly wrong. I may have to invent my own OOP language 14:05:35 c is not oop 14:05:38 jix: a nice example of brute force hacking! 14:05:42 It'll be simple, without all the fluff. 14:05:53 No Jix, but C++ claims to be (still questionable) 14:05:53 ruby is simple 14:06:06 c++ object-ori... wtf? 14:06:22 * Wildhalcyon wonders how to obfuscate BF code 14:06:32 kipple: hahaha 14:07:26 * Keymaker thinks if he should give away information about his secret brainfuck project, or just some annoying pieces of information to and keep it secret 14:07:51 Keymaker, Im still in doubt about its existence 14:08:00 lol 14:08:09 but it can't be cooler than interactive TRANSCRIPT 14:08:15 no, it isn't 14:08:24 but its close to existing, so thats a plus 14:08:25 but by the way, this new project is what i just started few mins ago 14:08:35 it's not the one i mentioned long ago 14:08:43 keymaker: I start a new project ~ every 30 minutes 14:08:46 tell us about it 14:08:48 heh 14:09:03 Wildhalcyon: hah i start a new one every 29.57464 minutes 14:09:07 (the one wh doesn't believe exists is under work as well) 14:09:46 and the problem is.. I don't DROP any of them. I'm still working on my colorized OO funge varient, my glypho interpreter, interactive transcript, slightly-3D SNUSP, etc... 14:10:05 i start and drop.. but i have couple of under work 14:10:22 Keymaker: same here 14:10:29 Im starting to wonder if I'll ever develop my funge-language roguelike 14:11:33 * Wildhalcyon wonders how much the pickaxes in the audi cost per piece. Thats some sweet vengance - someone must have forked over the dough 14:12:26 it was cool hack :) 14:12:43 LOL i just read pickaxe and thought you're talking about ruby 14:13:09 because the book "Programming Ruby" from pragprog has the nickname pickaxe because it has a pickaxe on the cover 14:14:39 Alright you crazy programmers, I need to go get ready for my midterm (another one, yay!) 14:14:49 midterm? 14:15:05 a terminal emulator? 14:15:06 yeah. Its a test, in the middle of the term. 14:15:08 like xterm 14:15:23 * jix looks up term 14:15:23 nah, xterm is cool, midterms suck 14:15:29 term == semester 14:15:34 ah 14:15:38 ok 14:15:49 <{^Raven^}> the authentication process to login to a midterm is a b*tch 14:16:20 no kidding Raven. I need my student ID card, a pencil with a decent eraser, and for this class a non-programmable calculator 14:17:02 in school math test we are allowed to use graphical+programmable calculators 14:17:32 but at the "Mathe Olympiade"(math olympics) we may only use simple calculators 14:18:45 Yeah, its similar here 14:19:00 maybe because our math teacher doesn't know that we know how to use the programmable calculators "efficient" 14:19:11 Anyhow, I'll be back later on, with some fresh ideas on how to obfuscate already troublesome concepts 14:19:20 mathe olympiade is cool 14:20:22 * {^Raven^} thought up two new esolangs last night 14:20:55 {^Raven^}: cool 14:21:15 nice 14:21:36 dream or didn't you get to sleep? 14:24:05 in better english: "did you invent them in a dream or didn't you get any sleep and invented them on that time?" 14:24:30 <{^Raven^}> sleep deprivation probably. last night == 6am 14:25:07 ok 14:25:22 <{^Raven^}> i've never implemented an esolang before so this will be fun 14:25:29 ah 14:26:19 than don't tell me enough about it that i'm able to implement it 14:26:32 hehe 14:26:34 i'm known for implementing things just because someone talked about it;) 14:26:54 <{^Raven^}> heh, i'm not sure i know enough about them yet 14:28:36 hahaha, unfortunately for jix he implemented glypho before it was ready 14:28:47 heh 14:35:25 aargh.. i really need to go reading now.. bbl 14:35:27 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 14:39:00 <{^Raven^}> hmmm, one of these languages is possibly going to be *very* difficult to write programs for 14:39:11 * {^Raven^} forgets if that is a good thing or not 14:39:40 good 14:39:44 :D 14:42:48 -!- nooga has joined. 14:45:24 my c macros are growing too fast 14:45:50 morning (or whatever time it is for you) Nooga 14:46:00 3 pm :) 14:46:02 17 line macros... 14:46:14 morning Wildhalcyon :> 14:46:19 moin nooga 14:46:31 hi jix 14:46:41 Jix, what are they supposed to do? 14:47:00 <{^Raven^}> Aardwolf: first program... cat is '-12318683s6x5e' 14:47:06 they do special buffered fast byte and bit IO 14:48:44 Jix, are they in asm? 14:48:52 no in c 14:49:01 but i can't use inline functions there 14:52:51 my lib is written in portable 32bit c99 and should run on every >= 32bit machine and is able to handle any filesize 14:53:53 very nice jix 14:55:49 i think the api is simple and flexible 14:56:10 you can use it for file => file mem => file mem => mem .... 14:58:05 <{^Raven^}> jix: comp.lang.c comes to mind (if you dare) 14:58:34 ~ 14:59:18 {^Raven^}: hm? 15:01:19 <{^Raven^}> jix: usenet group where you can ask questions about the standard C language 15:01:30 i have no questions 15:01:38 <{^Raven^}> ok 15:03:18 maybe i ask an operator to free the channel #comression ( Contact: TheStar, last seen: 2 years 5 weeks 2 days (6h 11m 32s) ago) only chenserv and me in there 15:05:44 Hmmm, compression is fun 15:06:41 unfortunately, glypho is what I consider anti-compression. It takes more information to encode glypho than it actually contains (at least, in the 4 symbol case.. I think its worse as the string length increases) 15:07:26 no.. with string length 1 it needs 1 byte for.. uhm 1 symbol 15:07:32 best cas is length 2 15:07:41 2 bytes for 2 symbols 15:08:39 -!- Aardwolf has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:08:41 Im comparing the number of possible glypho symbols v. the number of possible normal symbols. 15:09:19 with a 4-symbol 4-length alphabet, glypho can encode 15 unique symbols, while "conventional" encoding can encode 4^4 = 256 15:10:52 with a 2-symbol 2-length alphabet, you're looking at 2 glypho v. 2^2 = 4 conventional 15:11:54 it gets worse if you consider the "loss 15:12:18 "loss" associated with the english alphabet - 15 v. 26^4 15:14:03 Ah well, its still cool ;-) And it might be uber-compressible with the short alphabet. 15:29:56 it's über not uber 15:39:48 -!- Wildhalcyon_ has joined. 15:39:48 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:39:50 -!- Wildhalcyon_ has changed nick to Wildhalcyon. 15:40:02 wb Wildhalcyon 16:06:49 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:08:49 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 16:09:36 man, my internet is freaky again 16:11:44 heh 16:12:05 i think taht SQL should be classified as esolang too 16:12:35 c too 16:13:30 C is quite clear, SQL is not 16:13:48 quite clear? 16:13:48 rv.read_data = (size_t(*)(void*, size_t, size_t, void*))fread; 16:14:19 erm 16:14:28 some sort of cast? 16:14:33 yes 16:14:35 its a function pointer 16:14:45 which we've been ranting about all day 16:14:57 huh 16:15:03 yes that's casting of function pointers... and that's ugly 16:15:25 A lot of languages have ugly constructs though. Perl is the worst imo 16:15:37 then i'll maybe go back to my PHP app... 16:16:38 and a lot of languages fore one to use them 16:16:41 force 16:16:52 hah, i love perl for those werid constructs 16:17:25 nooga: your host is a perl script ;) 16:17:31 ...rev.inter-c.pl 16:17:43 :> 16:17:55 like almost every host here, in Poland :> 16:18:04 ;) 16:18:08 we've got .pl domain :> 16:18:12 i know 16:18:18 perlish country huh? :> 16:18:24 * Wildhalcyon is a perl script $_ 16:18:41 Wildhalcyon is away 16:18:58 hmm.. I suppose I am, at that 16:19:09 Im about to leave anyways, soon as I can find my shoes.. 16:19:13 whois says so.... 16:20:32 whois is right, I gotta go 16:20:36 I'll talk with you later Jix 16:20:41 Wildhalcyon: From perl i like that: my $foo = shift || 10; 16:20:59 and many more things :> 16:21:18 ruby: foo = (ARGV.shift || 10).to_i 16:21:30 ha :> 16:21:32 longer 16:21:37 if you talk about argv 16:21:40 yea 16:21:44 if you talk about functino arguments 16:21:56 def bla (foo = 10) ... 16:22:04 shorter 16:23:07 like in php 16:23:45 oh you could write def bla foo = 10 (without ( and ) ) 16:25:24 my compressor is faster if a file has more 1 bits than 0 bits ^^ 16:26:13 thats one addition, one subtraction and one multiplication less per bit 16:27:32 i never care about execution time :> 16:27:44 never? 16:27:52 never 16:27:58 you don't care if your computer needs 20h to start up? 16:28:13 my programs always run fast 16:28:15 or if you need 20h to compress a 1mb file 16:28:44 they run fast even if you don't care about it? 16:29:03 in most cases 16:29:14 but not if you write a complex compressor 16:29:31 right 17:18:47 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:33:30 -!- Keymaker has joined. 17:33:49 fsck.. i slept all the time and didn't read at all.. 17:34:00 well, let's hope the brain works best in panic :) 17:35:44 -!- twobitsprite has joined. 17:35:44 -!- twobitsp1ite has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:10:01 -!- twobitsp1ite has joined. 18:10:01 -!- twobitsprite has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:20:51 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:31:39 -!- cmeme has quit (Connection timed out). 18:40:36 anyone seen the new dr. Who show? 18:52:15 nope 18:52:41 starts here in Norway today. just wondering if it's any good 18:53:07 never heard of :) 18:53:28 but i guess the only way is to "see it for yourself" 18:53:45 I have some vague memories from my childhood of the old series. I really liked it then, not that that need matter at all 19:02:11 bbl. 19:02:12 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 19:06:56 <{^Raven^}> kipple: the new series is *really* good 19:08:55 It's a good thing I have a business trip to Norway every week :-P 19:24:32 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 19:24:41 -!- cmeme has joined. 19:28:05 cmeme, we meet again! 19:28:09 En gard! 19:28:19 * GregorR swordfights with cmeme. 19:28:24 * GregorR parries! 19:28:27 * GregorR thrusts! 19:28:30 * GregorR misses! 19:28:33 * GregorR is stabbed!! 19:28:43 Gregor, you appear to have stabbed yourself again 19:28:54 These things ... 19:28:59 * GregorR fades away ... 19:29:01 These things ... 19:29:07 happen *auggggggggh* 19:29:24 Wait, you just faded away!.. Did you just come back from the grave to re-utter your last lines and pass away once again? 19:29:42 I should have said "is fading away' 19:29:46 you pseudo-mortal. 19:30:14 And now ... to school :-P 19:31:04 darn 19:31:24 I was going to have an exciting talk about a Forth-TRANSCRIPT varient Im working on 19:47:14 -!- twobitsprite has joined. 19:47:15 -!- twobitsp1ite has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:59:00 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 20:02:03 Raven: just watched it. Can't say I was impressed :( 20:04:19 -!- Keymaker has joined. 20:04:24 rgrh 20:15:32 -!- Aardwolf has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:32:29 -!- twobitsp1ite has joined. 20:32:29 -!- twobitsprite has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:38:04 -!- twobitsprite has joined. 20:42:40 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:43:12 -!- twobitsp1ite has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:31:23 -!- twobitsp1ite has joined. 21:31:23 -!- twobitsprite has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:36:56 -!- jix has left (?). 21:45:49 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 21:45:54 'ello 21:45:57 -!- twobitsp1ite has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:46:01 -!- twobitsprite has joined. 21:46:07 hey! 21:46:11 hi 21:46:19 How are you Mr Keymaker? 21:46:24 i'm fine, thank you 21:46:31 how are you? 21:46:51 Fine, I might have a new job... 21:46:56 nice 21:47:21 i'm working with my newest project at the moment.. 21:47:38 brainfunk? 21:47:54 nope 21:47:57 but brainfuck related 21:48:06 ok, well there we go 21:48:11 :p 21:48:20 this project will take a lot time 21:48:25 but it won't be worth it :) 21:48:30 hah 21:48:51 I know how that feels.. 21:48:55 luckily the next term in school is the next i have ever had, only 15 hours school a week 21:49:03 so, i have plenty of timeeeee 21:49:11 Yay! 21:49:22 :) yeah, i've waited this for a long time.. 21:50:56 Im working on turing interactive TRANSCRIPT syntax such as "if all lights are red then the cup contains water" into meaningful programming syntax. Not to mention "There are lots of lights" 21:51:45 cool 21:52:08 probably quite difficult job, i assume.. 21:52:32 Well, thinking it all up and writing it down is EASY. It's when I actually move towards writing an implementation that will be the challenge 21:53:12 hehe 21:53:20 but there's jix ;) 21:54:40 Esolang Design Goal: develop an esolang that will be difficult for Jix to implement. 21:54:55 hehe 21:55:24 The only thing I can think of is using a foreign language. He's amazingly good at what he does 21:55:39 yeah, i've noticed that too 21:55:39 -!- twobitsp1ite has joined. 21:57:24 Im working on the mechanics for the word "lots" right now. It roughly means "uncountable" - so if you say "There are lots of lights" there are more than enough for any task you could possibly use them for. Think of "lots" as aleph-null 21:59:26 -!- twobitsprite has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:31:50 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:33:28 -!- kipple has joined. 22:33:47 <{^Raven^}> Wildhalcyon: The one I'm working on should be difficult for jix to implement 22:34:38 <{^Raven^}> cat (beta) is 63s73x5 or 806s30x5 or ... 22:35:24 I dont understand that... 22:35:34 The letters with the numbers with the confusion 22:35:46 that is probably code 22:35:55 ..but no idea what it does 22:35:58 Well, yeah, but I dont understand it 22:36:12 <{^Raven^}> it's a cat program 22:36:19 <{^Raven^}> echo all input to output 22:36:27 yes 22:37:51 <{^Raven^}> echo chars 0 to 255 to output is 8357s19x6 22:44:14 i'll just wait the specs.. :) 22:47:43 well. good night 22:47:49 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 22:51:18 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:12:41 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 2005-09-29: 00:29:01 -!- GregorR-L has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:29:01 -!- cpressey has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:29:01 -!- tokigun has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:30:08 -!- cpressey has joined. 00:30:17 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 00:30:17 -!- tokigun has joined. 00:35:59 GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO NETSPLIT! 00:37:56 was it fun being on the other side of the abyss? 00:40:19 -!- tokigun has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:40:19 -!- GregorR-L has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:42:15 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 00:42:15 -!- tokigun has joined. 00:42:18 -!- tokigun has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:45:22 -!- GregorR-L has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:46:06 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 02:04:15 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 03:17:05 twobitsp1ite: You know what was weird on the other side of the abyss? 03:17:21 It still showed everybody in the online list. 03:17:29 It showed logout messages ... but still showed them as in the channel. 03:26:19 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:30:47 -!- GregorR has joined. 03:31:17 /msg HotMama01 Hey baby, wanna cyber? 03:31:21 Whoops! :P 03:43:56 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:02:13 -!- Arrogant has joined. 04:20:15 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 04:41:27 Arrogant: How goes your ORK project? :-P 05:14:59 -!- twobitsprite has joined. 05:17:23 -!- twobitsp1ite has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:30:26 -!- calamari has joined. 05:32:30 hi 05:32:34 Hola 05:32:58 ahh, it's the mad hatter :) 05:33:08 Indubidably. 05:33:18 It's the mad squid :-P 05:33:55 yep! check this out http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=scienceNews&storyID=2005-09-27T234411Z_01_DIT783884_RTRUKOC_0_US-SQUID.xml 05:34:15 "Brainfuck Named Most Influential Language Ever" 05:34:41 Hey, cool. 05:35:14 that was my cousin Ted.. too bad for him, lost a tentacle 05:35:58 lol 05:36:06 actually it kinda makes me sick to think that it was in enough pain to rip its own arm off.. 05:36:19 they had it tethered down 05:36:29 We don't know anything about the giant squid, for all we know that's normal. 05:37:14 well, it was caught for over 4 hours 05:37:21 that article doesn't talk about that much 05:37:26 Yee >_> 05:37:33 http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/27/science/27cnd-squid.html?hp&ex=1127880000&en=3fe80be6ccc23999&ei=5094&partner=homepage 05:37:36 there you go 05:38:05 oops 05:38:09 guess that link is dead now 05:39:30 Umm 05:39:31 Worked for me. 05:40:46 yeah, I had to register, now its up 05:42:20 Have you played Battle for Wesnoth? 05:47:23 nope, is that your mud? 05:47:54 sekhmet: Are you aware that sekhmet is a possible transliteration of "grey haired woman" from ancient egyptian? 05:48:03 calamari: No, it's a strategy game. 05:48:08 It's quite excellent. 05:48:18 IDIA is at sort of a stalled state while I get back into the groove of school :-P 05:49:40 sekhmet: Actually, it could also (as seker met with the weak r removed) be The Penis of Soker (a god) 05:56:39 the last strategy board game I played was Panzer Blitz.. spend a bunch of time learning how to play, but then when actually playing, the game wasn't any fun 05:56:49 It's a computer game XD 05:56:53 oic 05:57:01 www.wesnoth.org 06:03:01 Looking through the logs, I don't actually have any chance of sekhmet responding, do I :P 06:19:33 Hmm, brb. 06:19:38 -!- GregorR has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 06:31:33 -!- Arrogant has quit (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-"). 06:31:42 -!- nooga has joined. 06:32:35 hi 06:36:25 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:55:26 -!- GregorR has joined. 06:58:05 -!- GregorR_ has joined. 06:58:26 -!- GregorR has quit (Nick collision from services.). 06:58:46 -!- GregorR_ has changed nick to GregorR. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:15:33 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 08:16:36 -!- twobitsprite has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:16:59 -!- twobitsprite has joined. 09:03:10 -!- nooga has quit. 10:16:03 -!- Aardwolf has joined. 11:16:44 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:25:52 -!- CXI has joined. 12:02:44 -!- jix has joined. 12:39:01 -!- Keymaker has joined. 12:54:03 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 14:00:16 -!- wildhalcyon has joined. 14:00:35 Hey, what I miss??? 14:09:42 -!- wildhalcyon has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 14:42:03 -!- kipple has joined. 15:00:35 GregorR: Oh, I don't know, I can be coerced into responding. :) 15:13:31 Well well. 15:13:35 Amazing 8-D 15:27:17 -!- twobitsp1ite has joined. 15:27:17 -!- twobitsprite has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:41:45 -!- twobitsprite has joined. 15:41:45 -!- twobitsp1ite has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:32:55 -!- Aardwolf has quit ("Ik zen der is mee weg"). 17:46:00 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 17:51:35 -!- twobitsp1ite has joined. 17:54:25 -!- twobitsprite has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:57:29 -!- GregorR-L_ has joined. 17:57:32 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Nick collision from services.). 17:58:04 -!- GregorR-L_ has changed nick to GregorR-L. 18:20:08 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:20:42 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 18:30:45 -!- twobitsp1ite has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:30:46 -!- twobitsprite has joined. 18:41:08 -!- twobitsprite has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:41:15 -!- twobitsprite has joined. 18:51:19 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Classes again?!"). 19:23:05 -!- Keymaker has joined. 19:23:15 ha! the chapter of spare time has begun! 19:26:06 time to reveal your secret projects then? ;) 19:26:22 noo.. :) 19:26:55 actually, now when i have spare time i feel like running another brainfuck competition 19:27:11 but first should make up some idea.. 19:32:11 ..also, now when having time, the laziness has hit me.. 19:32:24 you know, you have time but you're unable to do anything? 19:32:35 I know the feeling 19:32:40 :) 19:38:55 kipple, do you have any good links? i have nothing interesting to read.. 19:39:40 links to what? anything in particular? 19:40:13 well, whatever 19:40:18 preferably something interesting 19:40:24 www.esolangs.org/wiki ;) 19:40:24 like esostuff for example 19:40:30 :p anything other? 19:43:06 can't think of anything. sorry 19:43:54 ok, that's fine :) 19:56:58 aha, time to go to wikiquote.. 20:40:41 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:43:49 i am tired 20:43:54 -!- CXI has joined. 20:43:59 * Keymaker falls asleep 20:47:53 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 21:02:12 -!- Arrogant has joined. 21:14:53 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 21:34:18 * Keymaker isn't tired anymore 21:34:52 Keymaker: BF competition sounds cool 21:34:58 cheers 21:35:03 i got an idea for it, too 21:35:16 i'm about to start writing rules and stuff 21:36:23 but i have to go to bed now.. french test tomorrow 21:36:50 ok 21:36:56 viva la france! 21:36:59 * {^Raven^} 's pc just exploded 21:37:06 :\ 21:37:17 nah... french is a difficult language 21:37:28 ah. 21:37:32 i've never read it 21:37:57 although i like it.. 21:38:20 i like french too... as long as >>I<< don't have to speak it 21:38:28 hehe, yeah 21:38:40 the speaking part is often annoying, at least for me 21:39:07 g'night 21:39:08 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:40:01 wow. 99bob.net has 807 langs already.. 21:52:12 BOOOOOOOOOM! 21:52:16 * GregorR appears. 21:53:07 'ello 21:53:22 hehe, slower than text :) 21:53:23 'lo 21:54:11 anythin' interestin' goin' on? 21:54:42 ' '' '' ' 21:54:48 (Super shortened form) 21:54:50 :D 21:55:06 Well. 21:55:28 I'm trying to find a MingW/Windows developer to help me get DirectNet's Gaim plugin working on Windoze, and with that I'll release DirectNet 1.0.0! 21:55:41 * Keymaker explodes 21:55:44 sounds too confusing 21:56:01 And I'm trying to get Battle for Wesnoth to accept my OBLISK package as the official (download page) GNU/Linux package. 21:56:41 And actually, I'm pretty sure that DirectNet's Gaim plugin should already work on Windows, but don't have the system to test it on :P 22:12:56 -!- CXI has quit (Connection timed out). 22:24:47 Mmmmmmmm ...... Moxie. 22:27:08 :) 22:27:14 mmmm.. nothing.. 22:29:25 lol 22:29:29 Mmmmmmmm ....... BF? 22:29:35 yes 22:29:39 ^_^ 22:29:44 I just severely broke DirectNet 8-D 22:29:50 :) 22:35:14 Ahhh, I'm dumb XD 22:35:22 It wasn't broken, my GPG configuration was broken :P 22:37:16 YAY! 8-D 22:49:30 what i do to represent '/' in html 22:49:34 can i just type it there? 22:49:39 or do i need something before it? 22:52:07 Yeah, / is fine 22:52:41 ok. 22:54:12 Basically you only have to worry about <, > and & 22:54:45 o-k 23:41:15 the new brainfuck competition starts to look good.. 23:51:01 (the info/rules file i'm writing, i mean) 23:51:32 so, what's the task? 23:52:10 hmmm, would i dare to tell yet? 23:52:54 i'll just give a few hints.. it has something to do with two-byte integers, stack etc.. ;) 23:53:46 i hope i can start the competition tomorrow.. but you all know my laziness.. 23:57:23 -!- Arrogant has quit (" Like VS.net's GUI? Then try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-"). 23:58:32 hopefully more will participate this time... 23:59:23 indeed.. 23:59:36 it will be interesting competition i hope 2005-09-30: 00:00:20 to note, all use of brainfuck code generators such as bf-basic is strictly forbidden 00:00:48 that's hard to prove though 00:01:24 well, one can spot the generated code quite well 00:01:51 ok. that's good then 00:01:55 yeah 00:02:55 to get the winning code one needs to use brains and do tweakin' no generator can even think of 00:03:23 and to note, since this is cool community nobody would use code generators anyways ;) 00:04:05 Wow! ORK has skyrocketed on the 99bob rating list, and is now #6 :D 00:05:19 cool :D 00:05:25 how many votes? 00:05:39 20 00:05:48 wow 00:09:45 if ORK hadn't been so excessively verbose when it comes to manipulating variables it could almost be used as a normal language :) 00:10:36 hehe 00:11:07 -!- twobitsp1ite has joined. 00:11:28 here's a nice contest idea for you: write an ORK implementaion in BF ;) 00:11:30 -!- twobitsprite has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:12:44 that could be a *bit* difficult 00:12:51 but not byte 00:14:17 but i assume this contest will be hard enough for most of people, including me. i have no idea yet how to code the stuff that's wanted in the comp.. 00:15:14 I'm sure it will be difficult enough :) the previous ones has been, at least for me (but I'm no good at BF programming) 00:15:32 hehe 00:15:45 the first was rather easy, but the second was a bit harder 00:15:55 i was very close getting my entry done 00:16:32 these days i could easily finish it though.. 00:16:37 but haven't bothered 00:17:11 this third competition may be a bit harder than the second, not sure 00:17:19 yeah, probably ;) 00:17:33 wasn't there like almost no entries last time? 00:17:43 yep 00:17:47 only one :D 00:17:58 sure you want to make it even harder? 00:18:05 yes. 00:18:24 i'm sure the last round's lack of entries was because most of the people were really busy 00:18:49 perhaps 00:18:59 believe me, the task wasn't that hard 00:19:12 i got all the routines working but i couldn't make the stack work properly 00:19:39 but when i saw the winning entry i realized that the stack would've been so very easy to implement by using one different method 00:19:51 and if i had used that i would've got my solution working 00:25:21 anyways, i think i'm going to bed. hopefully the competition is ready to be started 'later' today 00:25:25 'nite :) 00:25:27 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context."). 00:40:38 -!- twobitsprite has joined. 00:40:39 -!- twobitsp1ite has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:49:36 * {^Raven^} 's other computer just exploded (two working ones remaining) 01:44:54 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:55:16 -!- kipple has joined. 02:36:59 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 02:37:21 hey! 02:43:24 hidey ho! 02:46:11 Whats up Kip? 02:49:57 not much... 02:50:38 haven't been able to work more on my bf-to-glypho compiler 03:03:39 Hmmm, bf-to-glypho would be easier than glypho-to-bf I think 03:09:02 probably. but more importantly: bf-to-glypho would prove TC 03:12:44 not really 03:12:56 Wait, nm 03:13:04 Im thinking about it wrong.. my bad 03:13:46 yeah, it should work, and prove TC. Im fairly certain TC is provable, since it has random access, exact same looping as bf, and can produce an arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point 03:15:08 agreed 03:55:37 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]"). 04:18:37 Ping.l 04:18:42 Why can't I type :'( 04:19:23 The moon weighs 11,771,110,100,000,000,000,000 stones. 04:20:34 good to know 04:21:38 :P 04:21:43 Oooooooh! 04:21:47 A measurement converter! 04:21:56 That would be a good BF project! 04:22:01 *contest 04:28:03 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 04:28:04 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 04:28:06 1 ounce = 0 metric tons 04:28:10 Thank you, Google. 04:44:04 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:50:14 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:35:04 -!- CXI has joined. 08:36:53 -!- Deosil has joined. 08:37:11 -!- Deosil has left (?). 11:13:14 -!- grim_ has joined. 13:05:24 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:06:22 -!- CXI has joined. 13:14:21 -!- kipple has joined. 13:38:56 -!- jix has joined. 14:41:57 -!- nooga has joined. 15:00:09 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 15:02:21 hi 15:02:55 moin everyone 15:03:20 * nooga is trying TeX :> 15:04:50 hey everyone 15:05:43 Im not sure what Gregor was talkin' about... I got 1 oz = 2.8349 * 10^-5 metric tons 15:30:50 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:30:58 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 15:31:32 bah 15:39:18 aaaa..tokigun..where are you?! 16:37:42 -!- ihope has joined. 16:44:01 -!- Wildhalcyon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:44:31 ...I'm working on Esos-hw version 1.0. 16:45:36 o 16:49:41 It's pretty simple, and I'm almost done with it... 16:54:14 -!- nooga has quit. 17:13:43 -!- ihope has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]"). 17:54:53 -!- Keymaker has joined. 17:55:13 hello 17:56:21 moin 17:58:19 moin 17:59:38 Keymaker: anything new abut the bf comp? 18:00:04 well, kinda 18:00:07 i just got on computer 18:00:15 i hope to get it started later this night 18:01:15 basically all i need to add is: judging & scoring and deadlines 18:01:24 maybe some clearing and other small things 18:01:28 but the main thing is ready 18:04:03 cool 18:04:20 and the main thing is...? 18:06:50 main thing? 18:06:59 19:01:07but the main thing is ready 18:07:06 ah.. 18:07:10 i won't tell it yet :p 18:07:16 you'll see when the competition starts 18:07:18 sorry ;) 18:07:28 k... 18:07:31 * jix can't wait 18:07:38 hehe 18:07:51 with that main thing i mean the competition task and instructions 18:08:31 you're probably goin' to be in? 18:08:55 if i have enough time 18:09:02 ok :) 18:09:12 at least keep on eye the result(s) 18:21:32 -!- grim_ has left (?). 18:21:49 -!- grim_ has joined. 18:24:15 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:33:48 ok 19:34:02 now the only thing that is required is the dates 19:34:15 (i mean dates for this competition time) 19:34:40 [well, real dates are missing as well] 19:35:05 hmmm 19:35:11 would a month be fine? 19:35:35 the time could end 1st november 20:04:41 ATTENTION. 20:05:02 the new brainfuck competition, Integer Brainfuck Competition, has started 20:05:04 http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1360541&forum_id=201037 20:05:07 good luck 20:26:03 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 20:26:17 Hey all, what's news? 20:28:16 check the log! 20:28:30 i just told that the new bf competition has begun! 20:28:53 HAS BEGUN?!?!?!?!?!?!?! 20:28:55 AHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! 20:29:00 Where's the info? 20:29:10 brainfuck golf forums 20:29:15 Okiday. 20:32:17 So, a RPN calc essentially? 20:32:51 well, kinda 20:33:08 but the main thing are the two-byte integers 20:35:26 Right. 20:35:43 Well, I'll start writing in a bit, but will fail miserably *shrugs* 20:36:00 good! 20:36:04 (the writing part) 20:36:07 lol 20:36:11 :) 20:36:47 i'd be interested how it would affect if info about this competition would be posted in slashdot. i mean, can they actually code or just talk crap x) 20:37:19 Slashdot = dumb. They can all just talk crap. Of this I am certain ;) 20:37:30 yes 20:38:00 better just to keep the info in esoteric programming circles 20:41:59 I can tell you one thing. The implementation I'll be using is EgoBF :) 20:43:25 ok, as long as it can not generate brainfuck code 20:47:59 Keymaker: i wrote 2 byte int routines a long time ago 20:48:10 i can use them to port any 1 byte math routine to 2 byte ints 20:48:38 i wrote them for my bf checksum program (that i didn't complete) 20:48:43 ok 20:48:59 but please don't release them yet, so that nobody gets tips! 20:49:07 of course not 20:49:11 good 20:49:21 i want to WIN 20:49:25 hehe 20:49:46 i just e-mailed dbc and laurent.. ;) 20:49:51 i hope they have spare time 20:50:37 may we add instructions? 20:52:03 hm? 20:52:07 add instructions? 20:52:12 like mod 20:52:22 % 20:52:26 power (^) 20:52:31 hmm 20:52:38 no 20:52:42 ok 20:52:46 at least not to your competition entries 20:54:16 i'm sorry about that, but i think the 8 instructions are enough 20:54:44 uh r is difficult 20:54:54 yes, a bit 20:55:05 but it'll be there :) 20:55:51 i'll start thinking about the integer stuff tomorrow. i have couple of ideas already, though. 20:57:30 anyways, it's very good to hear you ang gregorr are going to give it a try 21:07:48 -!- Wildhalcyon has joined. 21:09:16 'ello wh 21:09:44 hey mr keymaker 21:09:48 hi 21:09:57 the Integer Brainfuck Competition has begun 21:10:00 http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1360541&forum_id=201037 21:10:08 So I see 21:10:12 ok 21:10:15 Im afraid I won't be competing :-( 21:10:18 :\ 21:10:53 I just dont have the time right now 21:10:59 yeah 21:13:20 Is it just me, or is quicktime not the most annoying piece of software ever implemented? 21:14:07 quicktime is very old 21:14:46 i hate it 21:15:05 apple tries to move all the features from the old and dirty and mac os pre x-ish quicktime to the new osx core video,audio and image 21:15:48 or do you talk about the quicktime player as user? 21:17:37 quicktime player as user 21:17:47 It screws up my file dependencies, even when I tell it NOT to 21:17:52 yeah quicktime player is crap 21:18:02 i thought you talked about the quicktime lib 21:18:22 its the only player that can play .mov files tho 21:18:24 that Ive found 21:19:17 vlc? 21:19:38 vlc? 21:19:44 video lan client 21:20:04 Im not familiar with that 21:20:07 a video player that plays many formats 21:20:23 http://videolan.org/ 21:20:48 yeah, vlc is the best 21:21:01 i can't remember where i heard about it, it's the best player i've used 21:21:08 completely free as well 21:21:35 windows media player is crap too 21:21:44 hmm, alright 21:22:08 Im not a big fan of wmp either, but it generally does what I ask it to do, and doesnt install iTunes at the same time 21:23:06 of course on the windows platform apple bundles quicktime with itunes 21:23:20 mac os comes with quicktime and itunes 21:23:49 oh and are you sure windows media player does what you want? .. my firewall reports many unwanted connections 21:25:51 hmm, my firewall doesnt :-( 21:26:30 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:26:36 (connections to M$ are unwanted) 21:28:17 I definitely understand that jix. 21:28:41 As soon as I get the opportunity to afford a new comp, I'm heading towards linux. The way its setup right now though, it won't work :-( 21:29:18 i lost my old 16-bit BF routines.. working on new ones 21:30:09 ok 21:30:36 this competition will be quite exiting i think 21:36:29 there's interesting looking interpreter in wikipedia brainfuck article, written in some "BBC Basic" 21:36:39 it seems to be new addition there, haven't noticed it before 21:50:26 16bit ADD done 21:54:37 16bit SUB done 21:56:00 nice 21:56:13 the rest is quite easy now 21:56:45 but i can't do 16bit MUL inplace 21:57:21 for r=a+1 and r=a-1 i only needed space for r and a for r=a+b and r=a-b i only needed space for a,b and r 21:58:08 just noticed another problem with the "simple" way 22:55:06 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:55:41 -!- CXI has joined. 23:09:25 hmm. me go. nite 23:09:30 -!- Keymaker has quit ("Funkadelic!"). 23:35:25 -!- CXI has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:40:32 -!- jix has left (?).