00:06:10 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 00:13:46 -!- Sgep has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:07:06 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:33:39 -!- Sgep has joined. 02:54:14 -!- calamari has joined. 02:54:53 hi 02:57:41 Hoi 03:06:14 -!- kipple has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:11:17 -!- cmeme has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:11:34 -!- ineiros has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:12:30 -!- cmeme has joined. 03:14:47 -!- ineiros has joined. 03:15:28 I've been considering designing a non-esoteric language. 03:15:47 But I know I'm too lazy to follow through. 03:17:39 -!- ineiros has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:17:39 -!- fizzie_ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:17:40 -!- cmeme has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:17:40 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:25:59 GregorR: did you have something in mind? 03:28:31 i.e. oo, procedural, functional, your own twisted design? 03:34:57 -!- fizzie_ has joined. 03:41:47 -!- ineiros has joined. 03:41:54 -!- cmeme has joined. 03:41:54 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 03:41:59 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server"). 03:42:02 -!- cmeme has joined. 03:52:17 calamari: OO and procedural both as options. 03:52:46 Everything is an object (as in ruby), and generic operator overloading is supported. 03:53:00 GregorR: cool.. will it be run on a vm or compiled natively? 03:53:07 It would be nice to do both :) 03:53:16 * calamari hopes for native 03:53:30 Since it's never going to happen, I can just say whatever I want ;) 03:53:38 that's okay tho ;) 03:53:53 or compile to C 03:54:11 Well, yeah. 03:54:17 That's the obvious cheat to avoid actually compiling :P 03:54:51 why reinvent the wheel 03:55:27 and it can optimize for you so you don't have to deal with it 03:55:35 Yeah 03:56:19 hmm .. I wonder if someone did that for java 03:56:42 Main tenants: 1) Dynamic typing (templates, etc, are unnecessary, because a list of ints is just a list of "things" with ints in it) 03:56:55 2) Pass-by-reference in all cases 03:57:15 3) Objects have a reference count and delete themselves when that gets to 0 (garbage collection) 03:57:25 * calamari notes that Microsoft QuickBasic was pass by reference 03:57:27 4) I'll never get around to writing it, so I can say whatever I want 03:57:46 Wasn't QB was "all-global-variables" :P 03:57:50 -was 03:57:51 nope 03:57:56 *shrugs* 03:58:02 gw-basic was.. and line numbers, etc 03:58:05 * GregorR notes that Java is pass-by-reference. 03:58:43 but qb had functions that didn't share the same variables.. 03:58:49 yeah 03:59:20 Umm, lesse: Like many scripted languages, variables are in a separated namespace ($blah is a variable) 04:00:10 you mean blah$ like lin basic ;) hehehe 04:00:22 >_< 04:01:16 Does this look terrible to you? $a = [100...2] 04:01:26 Along with $a = [1, 2, 3] 04:01:29 what does it do 04:01:33 or $a = ["a", "b", "c"] 04:01:39 Make a an array with the values from 100 to 2 04:01:54 why not a = [100...2] 04:02:05 Because I separated the variable namespace ... 04:02:12 Variables are $blah 04:02:18 what is blah 04:02:24 The name of a random variable :p 04:02:29 $a, $b, $c are all valid variable names. 04:02:43 no I mean "blah" vs "$blah" 04:02:51 what is "blah" 04:02:56 "blah" would be referring to a function or a class. 04:03:01 By the name "blah" 04:03:20 drop the $ and I like it 04:03:25 lol 04:03:31 OK, more C/C++/Java-like :P 04:03:49 sounds good 04:04:36 hmm.. C++ is the only oo lang I know of that compiles natively, except gcj hacks 04:06:22 OK? 04:06:33 is what ok 04:06:46 I'm not sure what point you were trying to make with the C++ point. 04:07:03 oh, that I can't think of other oo examples to compare against 04:07:19 I'm not particularly fond of C++, but I haven't used it much 04:07:29 I like it *shrugs* 04:07:29 C# and Java seem easy 04:07:35 C# = evil 04:07:39 Java = slightly less evil :P 04:08:02 I like the syntax of them 04:08:30 Oh, other points I wanted to make: 04:08:35 C# less so than Java because it's trying to copy without copying hehe 04:08:42 Support for threading, mutexes and semaphores is built in ... 04:08:55 Support for networking is built in as well. 04:09:08 and built in BF support 04:09:29 lol 04:09:33 err glass, pardon the slip 04:09:50 http://pastebin.ca/27567 04:09:56 did you see the Glass -> Java translator the other day? 04:10:30 It wasn't complete was it? 04:10:34 I thought it was in-progress. 04:11:09 looks good except change . to + :) 04:11:36 Hmm, I like the .-style of string concatenation. 04:11:43 So as to not confuse it with adding. 04:11:46 But then, I guess it is adding ... 04:12:28 multiple inheritance? 04:12:52 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 04:12:59 That's a tough decision ... 04:13:12 don't do the lame interface thing :) 04:13:28 Heheh 04:14:39 since it's imaginary, might as well make it good 04:14:42 Part of my dynamic typing idea is that if you had a variable a with a List in it, and called length(), then later did the same thing but this time the variable a has a Que in it, it would still work. 04:14:55 So interfaces are unnecessary. 04:15:02 Unfortunately, that makes compilation really difficult ;) 04:16:00 * calamari scrolls back.. garbage collection. good 04:16:08 Heheh 04:16:28 Garbage collection is easy compared to this level of dynamic typing. 04:16:42 I don't think I understand the dyn typing yet 04:16:53 Well, the only type of variable is a "var" 04:17:05 No ints, floats, Lists or Ques per se. 04:17:19 In fact, let me post a segment of code. 04:17:32 oh.. like Visual Basic 04:17:37 or python 04:18:47 * calamari looks it up 04:18:58 VB: Variant 04:19:29 http://pastebin.ca/27569 04:20:56 new List.. so if a function doesn't take args you don't require () 04:21:13 Umm, "new List" isn't a function per-se. 04:21:25 isn't it calling a constructor 04:21:30 Yeah. 04:21:35 And if the constructor took args, you'd put ()s there. 04:21:41 But in general you need ()s for functions ... 04:21:46 Maybe I'm being dumb there ... 04:21:57 No, I think it makes sense. 04:22:09 The call to the constructor is implicit, not explicit. What you're really doing is making a new List. 04:22:17 well, List() would work too, right? 04:22:23 Yeah 04:22:59 I like it then 04:23:19 Could do the same with functions to keep things consistent 04:23:36 like a read-only c# property 04:23:38 In my mind, I'm still trying to reconcile a way to make functional programming possible. 04:23:58 well I'm calling it a function.. it'd be a method 04:24:04 True. 04:24:12 OH, the real issue: 04:24:25 If you don't have ()s on functions, the line is blurred horribly between variables and functions. 04:24:30 yeah 04:24:37 Almost irrecoverably. 04:24:52 I think you'd run into the same thing on classes 04:24:52 In fact, irrecoverably, not almost. 04:25:05 Well, the class name as a standalone token has no meaning. 04:25:18 It's only meaningful after the keywords "new" or "class" 04:25:39 (Since variables aren't typed) 04:26:46 * calamari notes: Queue ;) 04:26:56 Graah 04:26:59 I always misspell Queue XD 04:27:03 I hate that second ue. 04:27:07 cue is the 3 letter word 04:27:15 It's like bananananananananana 04:28:14 actually, would it be a bad thing to blur variables and functions? 04:28:22 you could pass a variable or pass a function 04:28:58 Hmm 04:29:03 Passing a function would be nice ... 04:29:19 But that goes back to my original thing of () vs no (). You would pass a function by not putting a () on it. 04:29:45 right but then whats wrong with a = myFunction 04:29:56 Nothing - so long as that doesn't call myFunction. 04:30:03 In fact, I like that - so long as it doesn't call myFunction. 04:30:10 actually that'd make sense as a function pointer 04:30:15 yeah :) 04:31:56 you can still have real functions by saying func(tion) rather than method 04:32:21 it'd be like public static in java 04:32:28 or c# by default 04:32:41 (iirc) 04:32:49 no I don't 04:32:52 lol 04:33:10 I would rather /not/ make a big distinction between functions and methods. 04:33:12 OH, in fact! 04:33:19 (/me writes a snippet of code) 04:34:06 Lemme backtrack for a sec. 04:34:13 Should constructors be named the same as the function? 04:34:15 *clas 04:34:17 *class 04:34:27 Or something more meaningful, like "Cons" 04:34:35 well the default one should be at least, so you could nest new calls 04:34:55 for ex: C = new A(new B()) 04:34:56 Umm ... hmm? 04:35:17 That has nothing to do with the name of the constructor ... 04:35:21 oh, I see what you mean 04:35:50 The name of the constructor is totally arbitrary, I just don't really like that it's always named after the class, seems like a more descriptive name would be better. 04:35:58 yeah I always thought using the name of the class was a little clinky 04:36:02 err clunky 04:37:10 public () { ... } .. seems obfuscated 04:37:34 Yeah, I'm doing public the java way. 04:37:43 Err, wait... 04:37:45 Not sure what you just said :P 04:37:50 oh.. sorry 04:38:20 (java for a moment) public class A { public A() { } } 04:38:30 vs public class A { public () { } } 04:38:41 I don't like it 04:38:46 http://pastebin.ca/27570 < how does this look to you? 04:38:49 just seeing what it would look liek with no label 04:39:07 what is :: 04:39:16 Heheh, borrowed C++ style class definitions :P 04:39:21 Don't like Java-style inline definitions. 04:39:33 what is it equivalent to in Java ? 04:39:41 Err, one sec, brb 04:39:55 oic.. it'd be "class" :) 04:40:09 if you're going to say func.. say class too hehe 04:41:21 Umm ... no ... 04:41:27 Wait ... 04:41:28 I think it's appropriate that the class encloses all its methods 04:41:33 Oh, that codes a bit funky, wait. 04:43:03 http://pastebin.ca/27572 04:43:03 is it a c++ thing to move the methods outside the class and use :: ? 04:43:07 Yes. 04:43:09 oic 04:43:14 I find it cleaner. 04:43:26 Because the class definition just tells you information about the class. 04:43:28 -!- Sgep has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:43:53 but a class encloses the methods it contains, so it seems nice to show that 04:44:10 how does c++ handle nested classes ? 04:44:12 Anybody else present to tie-break? 04:44:23 Hmm ... does C++ support subclasses? 04:44:25 I've never used them. 04:44:53 Yes, it does ... 04:44:56 * GregorR looks it up :P 04:44:57 in Java/C# it's as simple as aanother class definition nested inside the parent 04:45:19 Yeah, I know that much. 04:45:31 And on the one hand I like it, and on the other hand I don't. 04:45:57 I really only use them when coding Swing 04:46:09 because of all the event handling 04:46:39 OK, yes, it supports nested classes. 04:46:47 And it's simply SuperClass::SubClass::Function 04:47:14 I /STILL/ find it better to have the class declaration function-content-free. 04:47:57 Merely so that you can look at the top of a file and see all the interfaces to your class, instantly. 04:48:04 Without needing to dig around the functions. 04:50:05 Tie-breakers? Anyone? 04:52:27 Pff :P 04:56:55 GregorR: you should do it your way since it's your lang ;) 04:57:10 I find SuperClass::SubClass::Function hard to understand tho hehe 04:57:31 and it's all imaginary anyways so who cares ;) 04:57:39 Which is why I want a tie-breaker :-P 04:57:41 Heheh 04:58:45 -!- calaptop has joined. 04:58:56 I like calamari's way 04:59:12 -!- calaptop has quit (Client Quit). 05:00:40 where do you put class variables.. just anywhere outside a method? 05:01:01 how about this: 05:01:45 NRN 05:01:49 Err 05:02:00 Forgot I was in Dvorak :-P 05:02:02 LOL 05:02:02 nm.. thought I had something but it was bad 05:02:39 Anyway, yeah, class variables just go in the class. 05:02:41 * calamari is blind 05:02:45 private var a 05:02:50 Yeah ;) 05:02:59 private var a = 23; ? 05:03:12 err no semicolon.. nice 05:03:19 Thats what constructors are for ... 05:03:31 Yeah, no semicolons 05:03:42 but if its a private constructor 05:03:48 Ummmm 05:03:57 Does that make any sense? 05:04:01 yes 05:04:09 Explain. 05:04:28 two things 05:04:38 1) only functions 05:04:42 helo 05:05:02 http://pastebin.ca/27572 < Break this tie! 05:05:12 2) control contruction of your class.. you can have them call a method and it can return a new instance or an old one, or even null if it wants to 05:05:37 I think it's called the singleton pattern 05:05:53 Hmmmmm 05:06:04 I don't see how it would be useful :P 05:06:17 Do C++ and Java support private constructors? 05:06:20 it's like having a constant. 05:06:23 GregorR: yeah 05:06:24 or something. 05:06:40 I read C# and Java 05:06:40 * GregorR goes to google. 05:06:47 I dunno about c++ 05:07:20 c++ sucks!!!!! :D 05:07:21 GregorR: look up singleton and factory design patterns 05:07:29 and the tie is broken!!! :) 05:08:30 No it isn't ... 05:10:38 how does c++ do abstract classes 05:11:04 Unfortunately, badly. 05:11:12 It's really unintuitive >_> 05:12:16 Really, abstract classes and interfaces in C++ are just classes with functions defined to nothing. 05:12:24 Then you subclass them and define those classes. 05:13:08 I remember when I was first trying to learn oo programming, someone was trying to show me c++, but it really confused me.. Java seemed to make sense automatically. So it could just be different ways our brains folded hehe 05:13:57 * GregorR finally sort of figured out what private constructors are for. 05:14:59 c++ and java are not all that different 05:15:11 It's mostly syntactic sugar. 05:15:15 And builtin classes :P 05:15:32 yep 05:15:39 Java has a great class library 05:16:52 You know, I still don't see anything that a singleton class can do that you can't do less obtusely by other means. 05:18:27 Having this bizarre class with a static member of its own type and a private constructor ... yukk. 05:18:56 That being said ... 05:19:04 How about a means of producing singleton classes that isn't so obtuse? 05:20:02 or just skip the whole oo thing ;) 05:20:06 lol 05:20:22 Really, I guess, if you're using a singleton class, it's hardly even OO :P 05:20:33 It's more like a namespace than a class. 05:22:53 calamari: Let's cooperate on the construction of the compiler - and since I don't and won't write Java, and you don't and won't write C++, we can write it in Perl ;) 05:23:01 lol 05:23:41 I have the feeling that would degenerate into a perl golf 05:24:38 btw I would write C++, I just don't know it.. 05:25:22 I used to be a language snob, then I realized how much I liked Java and had to give up 05:25:40 Umm ... 05:25:45 What language were you snobby towards? 05:25:48 Java 05:25:51 :) 05:26:09 ... 05:26:10 and anything that wasn't compiled generally 05:26:13 Parser error on line 1. 05:26:41 I wrote programs in asm rather than dos batch files 05:26:57 lol 05:27:26 Umm ..... 05:27:35 I still can't quite shake the same feeling when watching linux boot up.. too many scripts 05:27:36 So you mean anything that /was/ compiled? 05:28:02 Oh wait. 05:28:06 Hahaha 05:28:15 I think we have reverse definitions of "snobby towards" 05:28:17 :P 05:28:23 Since it's a meaningless phrase. 05:28:37 sure 05:29:12 I have a poor vocabulary... just one of those things 05:30:00 so you never have to worry about me running for a public office 05:30:37 -!- Arrogant has joined. 05:30:38 hmm but there's bush.. blows away that theory 05:30:39 Hmmm. 05:30:43 Exactly ;) 05:30:58 Theory huh 05:31:07 calamarisure 05:31:09 calamariI have a poor vocabulary... just one of those things 05:31:11 calamariso you never have to worry about me running for a public office 05:31:25 Hehe 05:31:26 Arrogant: Tie-break this: http://pastebin.ca/27572 05:31:48 Hell, the people like idiots because they can feel they're on the same level 05:32:17 actually as president you just need to be good at reading what someone else wrote hehe 05:32:35 not likethey write their own speeches 05:32:44 They don't 05:33:08 GregorR: I nest functions in the class definition 05:33:17 It's something I picked up from Python 05:33:19 FUCK YOU BITCH 05:33:21 :P 05:33:25 Fine, I lose. 05:33:32 Javascript doesn't let you do it at all 05:33:41 Great language! 05:33:52 Thanks - trying to write a non-obfuscated language :P 05:34:09 Ah 05:34:18 Looks a little bit like C++ 05:35:17 Trying to strike a nice balance between C++ and Java and others. 05:35:30 And also be dynamically typed. 05:35:51 I don't see a need for public and private data 05:36:13 Arrogant's opinion no longer matters :P 05:36:39 The division between public and private data is as old as programming itself! 05:36:48 So? 05:36:56 War is as old as civilization itself 05:37:25 And war is awesome. 05:37:27 :P 05:37:28 Give me a good reason that you'd want it. 05:37:47 It's mostly to keep programmers from being idiots XD 05:38:00 Programmers will find other ways to be idiots 05:38:19 You're just putting up a safety fence 05:38:24 lol 05:39:39 does it improve security? 05:39:51 http://pastebin.ca/27575 05:39:57 I'd have to say not. 05:39:59 Don't see how 05:40:14 then down with the public private 05:40:20 Err, wait, I totally f'd up that code. 05:40:23 Ignore that previous link. 05:41:18 http://pastebin.ca/27576 05:41:25 (Also I took out public/private) 05:41:35 Oh wait, I failed to take out public/private XD 05:41:41 Ignore the word "private" in there ;) 05:42:40 Here, read this 05:42:43 http://livelogix.net/tom/blog/?p=20#more-20 05:42:54 Although it's got an obvious syntax problem it's got potential 05:43:22 (It uses <- for return, what's to keep <- x from being < -x 05:43:25 ) 05:44:35 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 05:44:43 I barely condone breaking at all :P 05:45:04 A return is a break 05:45:18 one entry one exit for you? 05:45:41 Heheh 05:45:43 Valid points. 05:46:05 However, a function ought to have multiple exit points, but (IMHO), a loop ought not to. 05:46:21 A function should give back its results whenever they become available. A loop ... isn't a function. 05:46:24 although I have to say that I don't miss goto much in Java. 05:46:35 A function doesn't have to be special. 05:47:08 Regardless of syntax, loops are not functions. Even if they were syntactically the same, loops are still not conceptually functions. 05:47:22 That being said, I break now and then myself ;) 05:47:25 Of course they're not. 05:47:35 They're blocks that operate in a special way. 05:47:39 I think I continue more than I break 05:47:40 A function is also a block that operates in a special way. 05:47:57 The article seeks to unite them 05:48:23 Logix is a really cool project but it's not going anywhere. There are some really good ideas in there though 06:02:24 floops 06:04:43 they're like functions, but they're loops! 06:05:23 :P 06:05:51 Too bad most languages suck at tail-calling 06:07:18 s/languages/implementations 06:16:05 http://www.bash.org/?60297 06:16:50 sweet 06:28:07 bbl 06:28:09 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 06:50:53 -!- Arrogant2 has joined. 06:51:04 Hmm 06:51:59 -!- Arrogant2 has left (?). 06:59:29 Attack of the clones! 07:01:13 -!- Blonde_19 has joined. 07:01:18 -!- Blonde_19 has left (?). 07:05:56 Woah .... 07:06:21 damn we totally missed some good cybering there 07:06:25 That was almost suggestive of female-ness ... 07:06:28 lol 07:06:49 Hmmmmmmm 07:06:51 * GregorR is blonde ... 07:06:54 * GregorR is 19 ... 07:07:26 -!- GregorR has changed nick to Blonde_19. 07:07:37 Hey baby let's cyber roflrofl 07:08:08 k 07:08:12 pixpls 07:08:41 http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://free-sex-pictures-gallery.org/gallery/teen/1013.jpg&imgrefurl=http://free-sex-pictures-gallery.org/gallery/teen/&h=700&w=525&sz=24&tbnid=AfkJCM11d3IJ:&tbnh=138&tbnw=103&hl=en&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dnude%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN (NSFW) 07:09:03 http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:AfkJCM11d3IJ:free-sex-pictures-gallery.org/gallery/teen/1013.jpg rather XD 07:09:14 she's not blonde 07:09:41 Damn, wasn't paying attn to detail. 07:09:53 http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:m5LDc0ylbIcJ:www.nudistpicturegallery.com/thin_blonde_woman_nude.jpg 07:10:33 you know what firefox needs? 07:10:37 What? 07:10:43 A good download manager 07:10:52 What does that have to do with cybering :P 07:10:54 -!- Blonde_19 has changed nick to GregorR. 07:11:00 Nothing! 07:11:03 Not the point. 07:11:11 Hehehe, I was kidding ;) 07:11:54 Really though. How hard would it be to make downloads that you could pause and resume over sessions 07:12:00 You can already pause them in the middle of a session 07:12:51 Yeah, something like getright would be a welcome addition. 07:13:46 Something like GetRight without the crap that comes with GetRight 07:14:46 * Arrogant needs a good irc client 07:15:01 HydraIRC is alright but it lacks scripting 07:15:02 * GregorR uses Chatzilla *shrugs* 07:15:06 Chatzilla is nice 07:15:10 But it's scripting is Javascript 07:15:14