←2005-11-04 2005-11-05 2005-11-06→ ↑2005 ↑all
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00:55:08 <calamari> !bf8 -.
00:55:33 <calamari> !bf16 -.
00:55:40 <calamari> !bf24 -.
00:56:26 <EgoBot> ˙
00:56:28 <EgoBot> ˙
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01:16:12 <KevinN> hi there
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01:31:49 <calamari> hi Kevin
01:31:54 <calamari> !bf32 -.
01:31:58 <EgoBot> ˙
01:35:05 <calamari> !bf32 +[[+]>+]
01:36:59 <calamari> !ps
01:39:10 <EgoBot> 1 Robdgreat: bf
01:39:12 <EgoBot> 2 ihope: lazyk
01:39:14 <EgoBot> 3 calamari: bf32
01:39:16 <EgoBot> 4 calamari: ps
01:42:14 <calamari> !kill 3
01:42:34 <EgoBot> Process 3 killed.
01:46:32 <KevinN> hoihoi
01:47:08 <KevinN> what is that?
01:48:08 <KevinN> !ps
01:48:34 <KevinN> !bf32 -.
01:48:38 <EgoBot> ˙
01:48:48 <KevinN> aaah... ^_^
01:48:54 <EgoBot> 1 Robdgreat: bf
01:48:56 <EgoBot> 2 ihope: lazyk
01:48:58 <EgoBot> 3 KevinN: ps
01:49:14 <KevinN> !kill 3
01:49:34 <EgoBot> Process 3 killed.
01:49:51 <KevinN> wow... a brainfuck-interpreter for IRC...
01:51:20 <KevinN> !bf32 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
01:51:25 <EgoBot> 7
01:51:50 <KevinN> !bf32 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
01:51:54 <EgoBot> A
01:52:40 <KevinN> !bf32 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
01:52:51 <KevinN> !bf32 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
01:52:54 <EgoBot> L
01:53:01 <KevinN> !bf32 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
01:53:06 <EgoBot> K
01:53:21 <lament> KevinN: bf is far from the only language available.
01:53:51 <lament> See the topic.
01:54:21 <KevinN> !help
01:56:50 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls
01:56:52 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} glass glypho kipple lazyk malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql udage01
01:57:00 <calamari> hmm wiki writing seems to be messed up
01:57:42 <lament> !befunge "hi",,@
01:57:52 <lament> hm
01:57:54 <lament> no?
01:58:16 <lament> where's the output? :(
01:58:23 <calamari> !ps
01:59:13 <EgoBot> 1 Robdgreat: bf
01:59:14 <EgoBot> 2 ihope: lazyk
01:59:16 <EgoBot> 3 calamari: ps
02:00:10 <lament> !befunge ><
02:00:11 <lament> !ps
02:00:43 <KevinN> seems it doesn't work... somehow...
02:00:53 <calamari> hrm.. can't modify my user page.. bummer
02:01:14 <lament> well
02:01:17 <EgoBot> 1 Robdgreat: bf
02:01:18 <EgoBot> 2 ihope: lazyk
02:01:19 <lament> at least falsebot works :)
02:01:20 <EgoBot> 3 lament: befunge
02:01:23 <EgoBot> 4 lament: ps
02:01:27 <lament> !kill 3
02:01:37 <lament> F!"False is clearly the best"
02:01:37 <falsebot> False is clearly the best
02:01:48 <EgoBot> Process 3 killed.
02:02:12 <calamari> lament: what languages have you invented? I have a bad memory
02:02:22 <lament> calamari: prelude and fugue
02:02:48 <lament> well, and BEST, and a couple of joke ones.
02:03:15 <calamari> and smallf*?
02:03:29 <lament> well, yeah.
02:03:34 <lament> smallfuck you mean.
02:03:39 <KevinN> wow... more'n 4 already... :O
02:03:40 <calamari> no I don't ;)
02:03:45 <lament> oh
02:03:52 <lament> i didn't invent smallf* :)
02:03:58 <calamari> hehe
02:04:10 <lament> but that hardly qualifies as "invent"
02:04:17 <calamari> true
02:04:35 <KevinN> well... better than nothing at all... ;)
02:04:38 <calamari> btchanger barely, because of the combination of commands
02:04:53 <calamari> I should just modify the timeline and see if anyone complains
02:05:51 <KevinN> talking of which... I'm going to write a btchanger-to-AlPhAbEt-compiler (in AlPhAbEt) to prove its turing-completeness...
02:06:15 <KevinN> it's much easier to do it that way than write an btchanger-interpreter...
02:06:27 <KevinN> -n
02:08:08 <lament> KevinN: prove the turing-completeness of what?
02:08:30 <KevinN> of AlPhAbEt itself... ;)
02:09:23 <KevinN> (since btchanger is turing-complete, and since every btchanger-source can be translated to an equivalent AlPhAbEt-source, AlPhAbEt is turing-complete, too)...
02:09:47 <KevinN> at least that's the idea...
02:12:41 <lament> seems pretty straightforwardly TC
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02:14:55 <KevinN> jupp... so, I don't need to think about how to prove turing-completeness, but implement an already turing-proven language...
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02:16:31 <lament> yes :)
02:16:41 <lament> should be fore fun, too
02:16:43 <lament> *more
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02:19:30 <KevinN> well... that's the cool thing about ABC... it's not fun using it... ^_^
02:19:38 <KevinN> well... maybe a bit...
02:20:33 <KevinN> however, time doesn't go by so fast... so you can solve more complex problems...
02:20:45 <KevinN> (really don't know, how this works, but it does)
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02:23:03 <KevinN> re
02:38:38 <Sgep> Night all.
02:41:59 <calamari> cya sgep
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04:45:22 <Robdgreat> sekhmet, having problems?
04:51:26 <calamari> who does the bf golf's?
04:51:37 <calamari> Keymaker, right?
04:51:48 <GregorR-L> No clue :P
04:57:40 <Robdgreat> :P
04:58:09 <calamari> maybe I should use the nifty new forum for it
04:58:40 <calamari> err I meant "nifty" hehe
05:21:24 * calamari notes that it's hard to come up with good categories for esolangs that don't overlap
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05:23:12 <duerig> !rail http://pastebin.ca/raw/27689
05:23:41 <EgoBot> foobar!
05:23:45 <GregorR-L> lol
05:23:48 <duerig> Hmm.
05:23:49 <GregorR-L> That was slow
05:23:50 <duerig> That is slow.
05:23:55 <duerig> But it isn't done yet.
05:24:01 <duerig> Or shouldn't be.
05:24:02 <duerig> Haha
05:24:04 <GregorR-L> It's your interpreter ;)
05:24:09 <duerig> Granted.
05:25:08 <duerig> Except that it runs pretty much instantaneously on my computer.
05:25:20 <duerig> !ps
05:25:30 <GregorR-L> Hmm
05:25:36 <GregorR-L> Must be lag, too.
05:25:37 <duerig> Could the EgoBot be lagged down for some reason?
05:25:40 <duerig> Ah.
05:25:43 <duerig> Hahaha.
05:25:49 <duerig> Anyhow, check out the code for that.
05:25:59 <duerig> I had the idea as I was going to sleep last night.
05:26:02 <duerig> Kind of obfuscatory.
05:26:09 <EgoBot> 1 Robdgreat: bf
05:26:11 <EgoBot> 2 ihope: lazyk
05:26:13 <EgoBot> 3 duerig: ps
05:26:15 <GregorR-L> I'm looking at it :-P
05:26:44 <duerig> Running it on Egobot didn't finish.
05:26:49 <duerig> How odd.
05:27:01 <GregorR-L> Yes it did ...
05:27:12 <GregorR-L> !kill 1
05:27:15 <GregorR-L> !kill 2
05:27:34 <EgoBot> Process 1 killed.
05:27:35 <duerig> !rail http://pastebin.ca/raw/27689
05:27:36 <EgoBot> Process 2 killed.
05:27:50 <duerig> It only says 'foobar!'
05:27:55 <duerig> It should say 'raboof!' too.
05:27:57 <EgoBot> foobar!
05:28:09 <duerig> !ps
05:28:12 <GregorR-L> The issue is probably that EgoBot isn't logged in.
05:28:22 <GregorR-L> To nickserv.
05:28:26 <duerig> Oh.
05:28:27 <EgoBot> 1 duerig: ps
05:28:29 <duerig> That could be it.
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05:28:59 <duerig> Oh well.
05:29:01 -!- GregorR-L has changed nick to GregorR.
05:29:25 <duerig> Anyhow, how did you like the code? It runs backwards and forwards over the same track, and does something subtly different each time.
05:29:26 <GregorR> Now try it.
05:29:34 <duerig> !rail http://pastebin.ca/raw/27689
05:29:42 <GregorR> (I ust made it log in)
05:29:49 <duerig> I see.
05:29:57 <EgoBot> foobar!
05:30:05 <duerig> Nifty.
05:30:13 * duerig shakes the EgoBot's hand.
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05:30:34 <GregorR> lol, my alter ego rejoined :P
05:30:43 <duerig> Eh?
05:31:11 <GregorR> I killed my home connection through nickserv.
05:31:15 <GregorR> But it rejoined :P
05:31:15 <duerig> I see.
05:31:19 <duerig> Heh.
05:31:22 <duerig> Interesting.
05:35:42 <duerig> !rail http://pastebin.ca/raw/27692
05:36:23 <EgoBot> Hello, world!
05:36:56 * duerig cackles wickedly.
05:37:28 <duerig> Whoops. I forgot to expire that pastebin. Oh well.
05:49:16 <GregorR> duerig: Did you see the nonesolang I was designing?
05:49:26 <duerig> No. Tell me about it.
05:49:59 <GregorR> How 'bout I point you to the logs for yesterday :P
05:50:12 <duerig> Ah. I'll read those.
05:50:31 <GregorR> Hmmm
05:50:38 <GregorR> The meme ones are lacking ...
05:50:50 <duerig> I too am trying to design a nonesolang. But order of execution is hurting my head.
05:51:22 <GregorR> Heheh
05:51:37 <GregorR> Aha, the tunes.org logs are complete
05:52:25 <duerig> Ok.
05:52:29 <duerig> So for Nov. 4th.
05:52:42 <duerig> It messes me up that they are in a completely different timezone than I am. :)
05:52:45 <GregorR> 3rd
05:52:58 <GregorR> Yeah :P
05:54:08 <duerig> btw, somebody should do a ternary bf some day.
05:55:40 <duerig> Just to be pedantic, compiling to c is just as valid a compilation as compiling to some assembler. :)
05:56:04 <GregorR> But less difficult ;)
05:56:46 <duerig> Actually, I disagree.
05:56:51 <duerig> It is *more* difficult.
05:57:10 <GregorR> Actuall, I'm half considering compiling to C++ to get free OO
05:57:14 <duerig> The backend is the same.
05:57:32 <duerig> The code generation is simpler with a simpler instruction set.
05:58:06 <duerig> To take advantage of c, you have to be more subtle than just using 'goto'.
05:58:09 <duerig> For instance.
05:58:19 <duerig> 'cuz there are all those other kinds of constructs that are optimized in different ways.
05:58:31 <duerig> That is just how I see it, though.
05:58:43 <Arrogant> C-- would be a good language to generate
05:58:54 <GregorR> It's intended for that, isn't it.
05:58:56 <duerig> I wouldn't compile to C++. Too much of a headache.
05:59:04 <duerig> I'm not sure what C-- is.
05:59:22 <duerig> What is the purpose of your new language?
05:59:45 <Robdgreat> can someone point me to a bf interpreter in a language whose only control structure is if/then/goto ?
05:59:50 <GregorR> Basicall, the power of C(++) but with a more scripting lang feel.
05:59:59 <Robdgreat> I've looked in the archives and haven't found any
06:00:15 <GregorR> Robdgreat: I'm sure there are ASM ones ...
06:00:36 <Robdgreat> good point
06:01:01 <duerig> GregorR, what advantage will the scripting language feel get you? I know there are many advantages, I'm just wondering which ones are most important to you.
06:01:24 <GregorR> Dynamic typing, RAD are the primary ones.
06:02:09 <GregorR> Enough builtin stuff to make apps quickly is always nice :)
06:02:22 <duerig> *nod*. I see.
06:02:34 <Robdgreat> RAD is rad
06:02:37 <Robdgreat> totally
06:03:15 <GregorR> lol
06:04:02 <duerig> Hmm... my current vision of your language seems a lot like python. How does it differ?
06:04:22 <GregorR> Umm ... braces ;)
06:04:34 <duerig> Hahaha.
06:04:46 <duerig> btw, named constructors is *really* good!
06:05:02 <duerig> One of the major flaws in C++ is the fact that all constructors must have the same name.
06:05:24 <GregorR> It's actually not very dissimilar to python, but there are things in python that I ust don't really like.
06:05:36 <GregorR> Hopefully, this language won't have 'em ;)
06:06:10 <duerig> What do you dislike about python?
06:07:15 <GregorR> Well, a lot of it is actually syntactic - if I took a python interpreter, and changed the parser a bit, it would be pretty close ;)
06:07:35 <GregorR> Idonno, I haven't used Python in a while, so I don't remember the specifics I disliked.
06:07:45 <GregorR> I'll go read my Python book and get back to you ;)
06:08:46 <duerig> I would be interested to know. I like the idea of python, but certain things about it make me nervous.
06:09:45 <duerig> I don't know whether I can handle no braces. :) And the fact that subclassing is not done based on names kind of freaks me out.
06:10:04 <duerig> But if I actually sat down with it, I'd probably get used to it.
06:10:11 <GregorR> Also it seems like you can change WAY too much at runtime ...
06:10:55 <GregorR> Somebody told me about his using a library, but remaking the whole central class to the library to do something he wanted >_<
06:11:10 <GregorR> In HIS CODE, not actually changing the library code.
06:11:42 <duerig> That is kind of odd.
06:12:09 <GregorR> The problem is, you could fuck up somebody's code in your code, then submit a bug to their bugtracking system :P
06:13:02 <duerig> True. But generally if you are dinking around with somebody else's code and something goes wrong, you can be pretty sure it is your own bug.
06:13:33 <GregorR> You underestimate how stupid people are ;)
06:13:52 <duerig> Hahaha. Possibly.
06:14:04 <duerig> But that is an easy thing to do. :)
06:16:26 <duerig> It looks like your language could be interesting.
06:17:58 <duerig> If I could give one bit of advice, though, that would be to focus onto one or a few design goals and then decide everything in relation to them.
06:19:09 <duerig> One of my coworkers, a PHD student, wanted to design a language for his dissertation. His design goal was 'write a language that will take over the c/c++/java marketshare. Not a good design goal. :)
06:20:07 <duerig> On the other hand, making a language good at RAD is a decent design goal.
06:20:08 <Arrogant> That language would have to have a built-in do-everything construct.
06:20:50 <duerig> It probably wouldn't take over even then. The kind of person who uses c wouldn't trust a do-everything construct. :)
06:20:57 <Arrogant> True.
06:21:34 <Arrogant> do-everything.loadWebpageAndRenderItPrettyLike()
06:21:42 <duerig> Hahaha.
06:22:00 <duerig> There is probably some Microsoft researcher trying to implement that class right this second! :-)
06:22:15 <Arrogant> Probably
06:22:18 <Arrogant> But it'll mess up on the pretty
06:22:26 <duerig> Granted.
06:22:33 <duerig> I'm going to idle for a bit.
06:22:39 <Arrogant> Later.
06:22:42 <duerig> Later.
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06:47:15 <calamari> RobDGreat: still looking for an if/then/goto bf interpreter?
06:48:20 * calamari should code one for spaghetti :)
06:49:14 <GregorR> lol
06:51:35 <Robdgreat> actually I just got back to the comp
06:56:41 <calamari> Robdgreat: any language preference?
07:05:51 <calamari> times up! spaghetti here we come :)
07:23:22 <Robdgreat> I want to do one in atari basic
07:23:43 <Robdgreat> but right now I'm preoccupied with the Oracle of Bacon
07:25:01 * calamari is still figuring out how to read in the bf program :(, lol
07:25:32 <calamari> had to re-learn the lang
07:34:53 <Robdgreat> Adolf Hitler and Ron Jeremy: 4 degrees of separation
07:49:43 <Robdgreat> bedtime
07:52:35 <duerig> Robdgreat, don't do it in atari basic. Do it in atari assembler!
07:53:40 <duerig> Atari assembler is great. You've gotta love those 8-bit registers. :-)
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08:14:12 <calamari> mmm 6502
08:15:02 <calamari> a few students are using my 5200bas compiler for a grad class project
08:17:17 <calamari> coding in spaghetti has some 6502 similarities.. having to code high and low pointer bytes
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09:26:10 <calamari> re's
09:32:32 <calamari> hrm
09:32:53 <calamari> weird bug.. I can print "Hello Wor", but if I print the l it goes weird
09:39:29 <calamari> fixed :)
09:39:42 <calamari> I needed unsigned char in not just char
09:44:48 <calamari> hahah for spaghetti c output -O3 is smaller than -Os
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10:19:37 <jix> debugging...
10:19:55 <calamari> hi jix, bye jix
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10:44:24 <duerig> Jix: debugging?
10:45:51 <jix> i'm working on my bf text-output-code generator
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10:59:29 <jix> c++ sucks..
10:59:41 <jix> i'm not going to continue writing this in c++
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14:38:03 <sekhmet> Robdgreat: Was that just me splitting all the time? I had figured that was something going on with Freenode in general
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15:44:40 <Robdgreat> sekhmet: you appeared to have been repeatedly getting booted
15:45:20 <Robdgreat> oh wait
15:45:31 <Robdgreat> you split twice and once was no route to host
16:01:00 <jix> GregorR_: ... target)))))))) ;)
16:01:06 <jix> writing lisp is fun
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16:48:51 <CXI> jix: ruby! :o)
16:49:11 <jix> ruby is too slow
16:49:18 <jix> i used ruby for prototyping the algorithm
16:49:41 <CXI> yeah, fair enough
16:50:40 <jix> i implemented a binary heap in lisp... the code looks... lispy ;)
16:53:20 <CXI> :D
16:53:29 <CXI> gotta heart them brackets
16:53:36 <CXI> incidentally, have you ever heard of D?
16:53:56 <jix> yes it's a horror to compile it
16:54:18 <jix> i gave up...
16:54:36 <CXI> yeah? hmm
16:55:03 <CXI> shame, I've heard good things about it
16:55:06 <CXI> never used it myself
17:00:04 * Sgep needs to leave for 30min
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17:05:55 <CXI> hmm, I wish I knew more about website performance
17:06:08 <jix> why?
17:06:31 <CXI> 'cause I'm kicking around an idea for a CMS, but I'm not quite sure about stuff
17:06:38 <CXI> like the performance of disk reads vs database reads
17:08:25 <jix> data base searches faster database faster for small data sets (texts etc, account informations) harddisk ist faster for files (images etc) configurations is faster if it's written in native code
17:08:39 <jix> some things changes if you have a process that answers multiple requests
17:08:57 <jix> than configurations should be yaml or something human readable and parsed once not once per request
17:09:11 <CXI> hmm, right
17:09:20 <CXI> so it's basically always a better idea to store stuff in databases?
17:11:42 <jix> no it's bad to store downloads and images in databases
17:11:57 <jix> but you may store the paths to the files in the database
17:11:58 <CXI> er, sorry, yeah, by stuff I meant pages
17:12:03 <jix> yes
17:12:29 <jix> if you have multiple requests/process you may want to cache some pages
17:12:44 <jix> or parts of pages
17:13:39 <CXI> heh
17:13:54 <CXI> it's terrible, I keep throwing around ideas and either ending up at "oh, wait, that's PHP"
17:14:02 <CXI> or "oh, wait, that's smarty"
17:14:15 <jix> smarty?
17:14:21 <CXI> php templating engine
17:14:30 <jix> do not use php
17:14:39 <jix> np: Ensiferum - Guardians Of Fate [ Ensiferum ]
17:15:04 <CXI> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smarty <--- etc
17:15:13 <CXI> and yeah, I'm not using php - it's icky :P
17:17:08 <jix> use lisp!)))))) ;)
17:17:45 <jix> or with slime: use lisp!C-x C-q
17:18:24 <CXI> haha
17:21:12 <CXI> but yeah, it's tough to come up with any ideas without realising you're just duplicating someone else's work
17:22:40 * jix has to eat something
17:22:42 <jix> bbl
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18:02:02 <calamari> hi
18:25:24 <jix> c++ sucks...
18:25:32 <jix> moin calamari
18:40:12 -!- Keymaker has joined.
18:40:14 <Keymaker> hello
18:40:44 <jix> moin Keymaker
18:43:13 <Keymaker> hi
18:43:16 <Keymaker> how's going?
18:43:30 <jix> i switched back to lisp because c++ sucks
18:43:44 <Keymaker> ah
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19:27:17 <Keymaker> was there some way to list the channels and their topic?
19:27:30 <Keymaker> or is some client feature?
19:27:37 <Keymaker> *is it
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20:14:24 <jix> Keymaker: /list
20:15:02 <Keymaker> cheers
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20:22:20 <GregorR> I finally updated my hats page :P
20:22:46 <Keymaker> cool!
20:22:51 <jix> cool!
20:23:33 <jix> maybe you should update the text too?
20:23:40 <GregorR> D'oh >_<
20:23:51 <Keymaker> :D
20:23:57 <Keymaker> the fez picture is fun
20:24:01 <GregorR> Hmm, just saw a commercial that seemed a lot like Santa Clause and Garth Brooks were going to have gay sex.
20:24:21 <Keymaker> hmmm, i know garth brooks but who is santa clause?
20:24:31 <Keymaker> (joke)
20:25:13 <Keymaker> i have no idea who is garth brooks
20:25:49 <calamari> country music artist.. eew country
20:26:32 <jix> np: Ensiferum - Lai Lai Hei [ Iron ]
20:26:36 <Keymaker> hmh
20:26:47 <Keymaker> i don't like country
20:26:56 <Keymaker> i assume ensiferum is country band?
20:27:04 <jix> no....
20:27:08 <GregorR> Nobody in their right mind likes country.
20:27:17 <jix> i don't like country
20:27:17 <GregorR> But anyway, I fixed the text :P
20:27:22 <Keymaker> :)
20:27:33 <Keymaker> jix: yeah, i guessed
20:27:41 <jix> ensiferum is melodic death metal
20:28:16 * jix is bad at music categorisation i just copied that description from somewhere
20:28:21 <Keymaker> ok
20:28:33 <Keymaker> i just stopped today at one finnish web music store
20:28:45 <Keymaker> they had probably hundred metal categories
20:29:01 <GregorR> And Gregor doesn't like any of 'em :P
20:29:17 <calamari> Keymaker: btw, did you run the bf golf contests a while back?
20:29:46 <calamari> GregorR: you know you secretly like hair metal .. :P
20:29:56 <GregorR> Yeaaaaaaaaah ... no.
20:30:29 <jix> ensiferum is a finnish band btw
20:30:55 <jix> GregorR: what's your favorite music?
20:31:18 <GregorR> Hmmm, I'd have to go with Romantic-era Russian.
20:31:46 <jix> any online samples?
20:31:48 <GregorR> Borodin, Rimsky-Korsakov, Ippolotov-Ivanoff, etc.
20:32:05 <GregorR> Well, I'm sure you've heard Flight of the Bumblebee, that's by Rimsky-Korsakov.
20:32:26 <jix> yeah i'm sure i heard something of them but i'm sure i don't remember the name
20:32:35 <Keymaker> SCOOTER!!!!!!!!
20:32:39 <Keymaker> is my favourite band
20:32:44 <GregorR> Heh, just google any of them, I always buy CDs so I don't know of any particular sites.
20:32:56 <GregorR> Oh, Balakirev too.
20:32:59 <Keymaker> calamari: no, i haven't ran any bf golf contests,
20:33:03 <Keymaker> just three of my own
20:33:05 <jix> scooter is music?
20:33:12 <Keymaker> yes it is!
20:33:18 <calamari> Keymaker: oic
20:33:19 <GregorR> No, Scooter is vehicle ;)
20:33:36 <Keymaker> calamari: and the latest one ended few days ago
20:33:44 <Keymaker> without any entries :(
20:34:08 <Keymaker> even i, as a competition planner, didn't get mine done
20:34:22 <calamari> Keymaker: url?
20:34:32 <GregorR> Anyway, I'm off again, byeeeeeeeeeeeeee
20:34:38 <Keymaker> bye
20:34:44 <calamari> cya ego
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20:34:58 <Keymaker> http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1360541&forum_id=201037
20:36:10 <calamari> I have an idea for a new contest... it shouldn't be especially difficult
20:36:15 <Keymaker> tell me!
20:36:57 <calamari> in my automata/grammars/tcm clas we have discussed the various models of computation
20:37:08 <Keymaker> aha
20:38:30 <calamari> one problem a finite automaton couldn't solve was L = a^n b^n, (basically two strings of characters of equal length)
20:38:43 <calamari> but a context free language could, because of its stack
20:39:07 <calamari> however, a context-free lang can't handle a^n b^n c^n
20:39:44 <calamari> so I thought it'd be neat to see the shortest bf program that would either accept/reject an input based on whether it fits a^n b^n c^n
20:40:15 <calamari> for example aaaabbbbcccc is in the language, but aaaabccc would not be
20:40:52 <Keymaker> hmmm, i still don't get it :) i'm sorry, i'm dumb
20:41:25 <calamari> aaaa bbbb cccc, another way to write it is a^4 b^4 c^4
20:41:35 <calamari> so in that case n=4=4=4
20:41:49 <Keymaker> mmh
20:42:04 <calamari> but aaaa b ccc = a^4 b^1 c^3, 4 != 1 != 3
20:42:15 <Keymaker> yeah
20:42:17 <calamari> so it is not in the language a^n b^n c^n
20:42:23 <Keymaker> now i see
20:42:28 <Keymaker> :9
20:42:37 <Keymaker> that'd be neat
20:42:46 <calamari> it's considered the canonical example of a language requiring a turing machine
20:43:02 <jix> and there is no length limit for a b and c?
20:43:18 <Keymaker> like: hah -- valid, aabc -- invalid
20:43:19 <calamari> jix: correct.. it could definitely be more than 255
20:43:32 <calamari> Keymaker: or bac invalid
20:43:37 <calamari> since the order is wrong
20:43:40 <Keymaker> hm?
20:43:44 <Keymaker> what order?
20:43:50 <jix> it has to be the letters a b c in that order
20:43:59 <Keymaker> ah
20:44:03 <calamari> so abcabc is also not inthe language
20:44:29 <Keymaker> what about 'hah'?
20:44:43 <jix> invalid
20:44:46 <Keymaker> ok
20:44:53 <calamari> sorry.. the alphabet is = {a, b, c}
20:45:00 <Keymaker> only abc?
20:45:04 <Keymaker> ok
20:45:06 <calamari> but I think for the purposes of the contest that would be undefined
20:45:15 <Keymaker> whatever,
20:45:19 <Keymaker> abc is fine with me too
20:45:23 <jix> abc is good
20:45:27 <Keymaker> yeah
20:45:32 <calamari> I think it'd be okay for the contestant to choose any three ascii symbols (except spaces)
20:45:35 <jix> oh and the terminating character is 10 \n ok?
20:45:42 <Keymaker> yeah
20:45:46 <jix> but it should be specified
20:45:50 <Keymaker> naturally
20:45:56 <Keymaker> i'll make the specification
20:45:56 <calamari> perhaps it should be a b c then
20:46:02 <calamari> I can write the spec
20:46:08 <Keymaker> oh, ok then
20:46:14 <calamari> another common form is 0^n 1^n 2^n
20:46:23 <Keymaker> abc is better
20:46:34 <Keymaker> ok, here's my suggestion:
20:46:46 <Keymaker> 1. write a brainfuck program that reads a file as input
20:46:48 <calamari> I'd also like the form of output to be "accepted" or "rejected", but that may be too much trouble
20:47:07 <jix> no! thats good!
20:47:16 <jix> (because i'm working on bfgentext
20:47:24 <Keymaker> 2. read inputs, each separated from each other by unix new-line
20:47:29 <calamari> okay, I'll review my notes and write up a format description of the language and examples
20:47:35 <calamari> formal rather
20:47:40 <Keymaker> 3. output "valid" or "invalid" depending whether the data is
20:47:49 <Keymaker> eof = no change
20:48:02 <calamari> Keymaker: that's not traditional
20:48:11 <calamari> Keymaker: the input is simply a string of characters
20:48:18 <Keymaker> oh
20:48:20 <calamari> Keymaker: eof will be 0
20:48:27 <Keymaker> blah!
20:48:29 <Keymaker> :D
20:48:34 <calamari> or I should say \0 :)
20:48:42 <calamari> perhaps \n is better
20:48:43 <Keymaker> ok, so there will be only one input per program?
20:48:47 <calamari> yes
20:48:49 <jix> so its aaabbbccc\0 ?
20:48:54 <calamari> yeah \n is defnitelky better
20:48:55 <jix> thats not that easy to enter
20:49:01 <jix> \n is better
20:49:07 <calamari> okay \n then :)
20:49:15 <Keymaker> but entering it as file is rather easy
20:49:27 <calamari> I'll write up a spec and then we can work out problems
20:49:35 <Keymaker> especially if it's something like aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbccccccccccccccccccccccccccc
20:49:39 <Keymaker> ok
20:49:46 <Keymaker> calamari, this is excellent idea
20:49:50 <calamari> thanks
20:50:19 <Keymaker> i'll grab my brainfuck competition coding gloves
20:52:08 <Keymaker> this'll be interesting!
20:52:19 <Keymaker> are the abc always in that order?
20:53:08 <jix> should the program expect a^n b^m c^l \n or any input (like hah)
20:53:26 <Keymaker> and how does the program tell whether it's valid or invalid input?
20:54:25 <jix> it outputs "accepted\n" or "rejected\n"
20:54:58 <Keymaker> anyways, to mention, i think the input terminating would be better with 0, since eof = 0, one didn't need to enter anything
20:55:04 <Keymaker> jix: ok
20:55:57 <jix> and thats why the terminator should be \n.. the output gets misplaced if the user doesn't press \n
20:56:22 <Keymaker> i'm going to feed the input as file..
20:56:43 <jix> \n shouldn't be a problem in a file
20:57:22 <Keymaker> ..yep, it's not.. ..and most probably calamari, in case the input is long (which i suggest it should be), so he doesn't need to write 400 'a's etc..
20:57:40 <Keymaker> ..but \n looks ugly :)
20:57:52 <Keymaker> but that's naturally just my (humble) opinion
20:57:57 <jix> \n is just one keypress more
20:58:22 <Keymaker> but it doesn't look good in text editors..
20:58:44 <Keymaker> well, whatever calamari decides, i'm oppositing it unless it's 0. >xD
21:00:09 <Keymaker> but anyways, i need to repeat once more: this competition idea is really good! seems like interesting 'test' or whatever, i haven't heard about it before. i wonder why i never realize good competition ideas like this..
21:01:09 <Keymaker> since calamari probably has more money than me, he should buy prizes for gold, silver, and bronze winners :D
21:01:35 <Keymaker> something small like around-the-world trip..
21:06:23 <jix> does anyone of you know string figures?
21:06:54 <Keymaker> what are those?
21:07:13 <jix> take one long string loop and to hands with 5 fingers on each hand
21:07:30 <Robdgreat> yeah
21:07:36 <jix> then do some magical things and you get string figures
21:07:45 <Keymaker> cool!
21:07:51 <Keymaker> no, haven't heard of those before
21:09:03 <jix> here are figures for beginners: http://www.alysion.org/figures/introkids.htm
21:09:12 <Keymaker> cheers
21:09:20 <jix> or with video clips: http://www.alysion.org/figures/introkids.htm
21:09:44 <jix> i'm able to "make" a dog that is able to walk if i extend
21:10:57 <Keymaker> these look difficult..
21:12:00 <jix> i want to make a photo of the dog (as i'm not able to find a description or photo of that figure on the internet)
21:12:07 <jix> but i can't find my webcam
21:12:25 <Keymaker> :(
21:12:48 <Keymaker> it's interesting that there's this kind of thing existing, and i have never heard of it
21:13:29 <Keymaker> people have made all kinds of stuff..
21:13:53 <Keymaker> some get interested in some specific thing and dedicate all their freetime and effort on it
21:14:14 <Keymaker> it's crazy.. :) ..but true.
21:15:17 <jix> string figures are very old.. (most are from the native americans)
21:15:40 <Keymaker> yeah
21:28:49 <jix> back to lisp coding
21:29:05 <jix> calamari: how's the spec going?
21:29:21 <Keymaker> yeah
21:29:41 <Keymaker> by the way, any ideas for the competition starting date and deadline?
21:29:59 <jix> from now to in 5 mins? ;)
21:30:53 <Keymaker> :)
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21:37:09 <calamari> jix: going okay
21:37:17 <calamari> jix: wrapping up the last few details
21:38:04 <Keymaker> wrapping? aaargh!
21:38:28 <jix> oh and the bf implementation should use wrapping
21:38:45 <Keymaker> :(
21:38:46 <jix> Keymaker's compo had no entries because it was nonwrapping
21:38:58 <Keymaker> it was probably not because of that..
21:39:02 <jix> it was
21:39:11 <jix> i was done implementing the important things using wrapping bf
21:39:12 <Keymaker> bf golf has always had entries and it is non-wrapping ;)
21:39:45 <Keymaker> and my laurent made an entry to my previous competition (and i got mine almost done)
21:39:57 <calamari> it will be non-wrapping.. sorry jix :)
21:40:02 <jix> hrmpf
21:40:07 <Keymaker> and the first one had a lot entries (and it was non-wrapping)!
21:40:14 <Keymaker> :)
21:40:16 <calamari> although I very much enjoy wrapping, it seems better to disallow it
21:40:18 <jix> but than make it nochange on decrement 0 instead of error
21:40:32 <Keymaker> no!
21:40:40 * Keymaker suicides
21:41:18 <calamari> sorry jix :) it's the bf golf tradition to not allow wrapping
21:41:22 <jix> hrmpf
21:41:23 <jix> ok
21:41:27 <Keymaker> blame lament ;)
21:42:38 <jix> does bfdebug support nonwrapping?
21:42:54 <jix> because bfdebug is THE ULTIMATE bf coding utillity
21:43:31 <Keymaker> just to note, before someone else does, the "and my laurent made" should be "and laurent made"..
21:44:27 <Keymaker> bfdebug?
21:44:53 <calamari> okay
21:44:54 <jix> ultimate bf debugger written by calamari (right?)
21:44:55 <calamari> http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=387#387
21:45:05 -!- Keymaker has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context.").
21:45:08 <calamari> jix: dunno about ultimate, but I really like it :)
21:45:29 <jix> had Keymaker a wrong button problem?
21:45:39 <calamari> * Keymaker suicides
21:45:51 <jix> but he was able to talk after he wrote that
21:45:52 <calamari> perhaps it took that long to die?
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21:46:20 <Kmkr> grggh
21:46:24 <Robdgreat> you ok?
21:46:24 <jix> hrhr
21:46:28 <Kmkr> i hate clicking the wrong window..
21:46:36 * jix was right!
21:46:38 <Robdgreat> you had a vowel movement
21:46:54 <Kmkr> i accidentally closed this window when trying to close that darn firefox
21:47:28 <calamari> Rebdgreat: btw, I finished that Spagetti program last night and compiled it to c, so I can send you a bf interpreter using only if and goto :)
21:47:35 <calamari> err Spaghetti
21:47:38 <Robdgreat> yummy
21:48:20 <Robdgreat> actually what I think would be great is an atari basic interpreter/compiler in c
21:48:58 <calamari> I wrote a basic -> 6502 compiler for the Atari 5200, not sure if you were here when I mentioned that :)
21:49:08 <Robdgreat> yeah
21:49:16 <Robdgreat> how hard was that?
21:49:28 <calamari> not too bad.. I didn't include expression parsing
21:49:34 <jix> it's a pretty lowlevel basic right?
21:49:36 <Robdgreat> yeah
21:49:58 <calamari> I was able to include expression parsing, but I do not know how to optimize them yet
21:50:12 <Robdgreat> didn't send.
21:50:13 <calamari> since the language was for writing games it needed to be fast
21:50:23 <calamari> it must be my router
21:52:08 <Robdgreat> can you post it somewhere?
21:54:42 <Kmkr> hmmm, seems the competition is on!
21:55:03 <Kmkr> calamari: i'll report about in it in the brainfuck golf forums
21:55:14 <Kmkr> (although nobody reads them anyways)
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21:55:46 <Robdgreat> ssshhhh everybody, he's here
21:56:05 <GregorR> HEY GUYS U GOT MP3z?!
21:58:37 <Robdgreat> whatever gave them the idea that that's anything resembling clever?
21:58:49 <GregorR> lol
21:59:19 <Robdgreat> I type like that sometimes, but only because it's so idiotic it's funny.
21:59:36 <GregorR> Heheh
21:59:44 <Kmkr> can you trade some corpse pics for some mp3s gregor?
22:00:05 <Kmkr> ..and of course i'm not joking!
22:01:11 <GregorR> OMG NECROF33L334 IZ HOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!
22:03:17 <Kmkr> hey, cheers man, these pics are great.. i wish the local cemetery would as hot as the one over there..
22:03:28 <Kmkr> *would be
22:03:42 <Robdgreat> :o
22:08:37 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:08:51 -!- calamari has joined.
22:09:03 -!- calamari has quit (Client Quit).
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22:09:34 <calamari> hi
22:09:44 <GregorR> Hoi
22:09:51 <calamari> linux is really stupid sometimes.. I bet I've been disconnected for about 15 minutes and didn't even know it
22:10:12 <calamari> what was the last thing I said?
22:10:14 <GregorR> Nope, not even one.
22:10:17 <Robdgreat> it must be my router
22:10:44 <GregorR> I don't even have the last thing you said because you didn't talk after I connected.
22:10:55 <Kmkr> calamari: i informed about the new competition in brainfuck golf forum
22:11:02 <Kmkr> https://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1380003&forum_id=201037
22:11:44 <calamari> Nov 05 14:51:15 <calamari> any comments on the writeup?
22:11:44 <calamari> Nov 05 14:51:25 <calamari> I had to have made at least one error :)
22:11:44 <calamari> Nov 05 14:53:08 <calamari> Ahh.. non wrapping memory array.. didn't mention that
22:11:44 <calamari> Nov 05 14:53:21 <calamari> thanks Keymaker :)
22:11:44 <calamari> Nov 05 14:53:30 * calamari is reading Keymakers spec
22:11:45 <calamari> Nov 05 14:58:46 <calamari> okay .. edited :)
22:11:47 <calamari> Nov 05 14:59:25 <calamari> I suppose I should provide a reference interpreter.
22:11:49 <calamari> Nov 05 15:04:23 <calamari> how are entries usually handled?
22:11:51 <calamari> Nov 05 15:04:45 <calamari> do they get sent somewhere, or are they held on to until the contest is over and checked against their MD'4's?
22:11:54 <calamari> Nov 05 15:04:51 <calamari> err MD5's
22:11:55 <Kmkr> lol
22:11:58 <calamari> Nov 05 15:06:11 <calamari> Robdgreat: http://kidsquid.com/bf2.c
22:12:10 <Robdgreat> thanks
22:13:12 <calamari> Keymaker: how are entry submissions usually handled?
22:13:38 <calamari> I want to participate in the contest, so they can't be sent to me :)
22:14:07 <Robdgreat> thanks calamari
22:14:22 <calamari> Robdgreat: yw.. have fun :)
22:14:44 <Kmkr> calamari: first md5s are posted before the deadline
22:14:52 <calamari> Kmkr: then checked after?
22:14:59 <calamari> ok
22:15:01 <Kmkr> then, after deadline, the actual entries
22:15:08 <calamari> that's how I had it.. just wanted to make sure :)
22:15:26 <Kmkr> and the judge, who can also enter the competition by himself too, checks the md5s match the submitted programs
22:15:52 <Kmkr> the md5s should be taken from a program that has nothing else than brainfuck characters in it
22:16:04 <Kmkr> that way the checking if it matches the md5 is easier
22:17:01 <Kmkr> anyways, good luck! :)
22:17:38 <calamari> good point
22:18:27 <Kmkr> *be back in few minutes*
22:27:27 <Kmkr> hmm
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22:45:25 <Kmkr> calamari: the empty string is always followed by a new-line, too?
22:45:56 -!- duerig has joined.
22:46:43 <Kmkr> calamari: and can there be strings like "ab"?
22:47:04 <Kmkr> or is there at least three characters if the string is not empty?
22:52:31 <calamari> you can have ab, but it is not in L
22:52:46 <Kmkr> grrgh
22:52:46 <calamari> and there will always be a trailing newline..
22:52:49 <Kmkr> ok
22:53:01 <calamari> I'll clarify the spec
22:53:05 <jix> to the md5's
22:53:09 <Kmkr> ok
22:53:21 <calamari> jix: what?
22:53:21 <Kmkr> you're already ready?!
22:53:29 <jix> everyone should precede the code with some non bf characters to avoid bruteforcing the md5
22:53:56 <jix> like calculating the md5 of bla+++ instead of +++ .. because it's easy to brute force brainfuck md5s if the code is small
22:53:59 <Kmkr> hmm, but all the codes will be probably at least 300 instructions
22:54:02 <calamari> jix: why would it matter?
22:54:07 <Kmkr> cheating..
22:54:08 <jix> 300 instructions is ok
22:54:17 <jix> but like 40 instructions is brute-force-able
22:54:25 <calamari> jix: the first posted entry (if two are the same) is the winner
22:54:37 <Kmkr> oh
22:54:39 <calamari> jix: doubtful with printing acceppted or rejected that it will be under 40
22:54:42 <Kmkr> forgot that :9
22:55:01 * jix too
22:55:11 <Kmkr> i'll eat gregor's newest hat if someone can get it under 500
22:55:31 <GregorR> Again - my hats, you can't just eat them.
22:55:36 <Kmkr> :D
22:55:39 <Kmkr> delicious..
22:55:53 <GregorR> Tastes like felt :-P
22:56:03 * jix is ripping a cd into iTunes
22:58:48 * GregorR is ripping jix into shreds
22:59:04 * Kmkr is tripping
22:59:41 <Kmkr> oh, not really, it just looked good with those other words
23:00:13 <calamari> updated the spec
23:00:16 <Kmkr> ok
23:00:21 <Kmkr> what about prizes?
23:00:27 <calamari> also added that not all input must be read
23:00:28 <Kmkr> you need to promise at least joy of winning ;)
23:00:31 <calamari> prizes?
23:00:53 <calamari> hehe hadn't occured to me
23:01:05 <Kmkr> :)
23:01:28 <jix> np: Ten Years After - Rock Your Mama [ Undead Live '68 ]
23:01:29 <calamari> can't be money as I am poor :(
23:01:56 <GregorR> There's always sexual favors!
23:02:17 <calamari> GregorR: thanks for offering the prize
23:02:26 <GregorR> >_>
23:02:28 <GregorR> <_<
23:02:40 <Kmkr> :D
23:03:14 <Kmkr> calamari: non-materialistic prizes are fine as well ;)
23:03:27 <jix> calamari: paint a picture
23:03:37 <Kmkr> for example something graphical "i won a^n b^n c^n brainfuck competition" button
23:04:08 <Kmkr> that's what i have sent laurent from the two competitions :D
23:04:21 <jix> i beat the sword master
23:04:35 <Kmkr> hm?
23:04:44 <jix> in monkey island 1
23:04:52 <Kmkr> never visited that place
23:04:58 <jix> if you beat the sword master you win a t-shirt saying "i beat the sword master"
23:05:12 <Kmkr> nice
23:05:29 <Kmkr> also, a t-shirt would be awesome if calamari has extra money :)
23:05:44 <Kmkr> for whoever wins it..
23:05:55 <jix> or a graphic for printing a t-shirt ;)
23:06:05 <Kmkr> hehe
23:06:23 <calamari> lol, I have neither extra money or graphic design skills.. just see my webpage for proof of that :)
23:06:38 <calamari> I have a spare abacus, how's that?
23:06:48 <Kmkr> cool!
23:06:54 <jix> ultra-cool!
23:06:59 <jix> is it tc?
23:07:02 <jix> or fsa?
23:07:09 <Kmkr> mmh, no idea
23:07:19 <Kmkr> probably not turing-complete at least
23:08:00 <jix> well you can move the "things" on the abacus to any position with arbitrary precision..
23:08:09 <jix> haha @ http://bash.org/?574542
23:09:22 <Kmkr> ^ well, if it's in usa i can understand
23:09:57 <jix> they have signs FIRE IS HOT don't they?
23:10:04 <GregorR> Yes :-P
23:10:19 <GregorR> Warning: Hot coffee is hot!
23:10:43 <Kmkr> better pour some coffee on myself and sue somebody
23:11:16 <jix> Warning: stopping to breath may result in lack of oxygen
23:11:26 <GregorR> lol
23:11:31 <Kmkr> it can?!
23:12:04 <jix> in some special cases.. yes
23:12:15 <GregorR> SURGEON GENERALS WARNING: Breathing toxins is bad for you!
23:12:51 <calamari> okay added prizes section :)
23:13:19 <jix> Warning: running around naked and crying "i'm genius" may cause people to think you aren't genius
23:14:01 * calamari should test that theory sometime
23:14:12 <jix> which one?
23:14:16 <calamari> yours
23:14:33 <jix> GregorR: doesn't true for me
23:14:41 <calamari> me neither
23:14:50 <jix> i'm eating and eating and eating without getting FAT
23:14:52 * calamari is a metabolism machine..
23:15:00 <GregorR> SHUT UP! I don't want to hear about your metabolism!
23:15:23 <calamari> on irc no one can see your waist :)
23:15:33 * Kmkr eats cheeseburger
23:15:43 <lament> you people are *FAT*
23:15:46 * GregorR eats a Keymaker.
23:15:58 <Kmkr> that's 100000 cheeseburgers at once!
23:16:12 * GregorR gets fat.
23:16:22 <Kmkr> haha
23:16:27 * calamari points and laughs
23:17:46 <calamari> okay.. I need a forum category for bf and similar langs
23:17:54 <calamari> what should it be called?
23:18:02 <calamari> (as compared to 2-d's)
23:18:30 <Kmkr> hmmm.. 1 dimensional languages?
23:20:09 <calamari> okay, that's what I'll call it then :)
23:20:21 <Kmkr> ok
23:29:48 -!- ihope has joined.
23:32:11 <calamari> hmm, I already made forum.kidsquid.com .. I'll just add esoforum.kidsquid.com
23:40:32 -!- ihope has quit ("Chatzilla [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]").
23:52:45 <Kmkr> well.
23:52:54 <Kmkr> good night everyone
23:53:00 <Kmkr> zzzZZZz
23:53:04 -!- Kmkr has quit ("This quote is unrelated to this context.").
23:59:02 -!- GregorR has quit ("NO FOREWARNING, I just quit!").
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