< 1132790681 0 :cmeme!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Client terminated by server" < 1132790687 0 :cmeme!n=cmeme@boa.b9.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1132791082 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Broken pipe < 1132791558 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This is the default quit message" < 1132791558 0 :pgimeno_!n=pgimeno@124.Red-80-59-211.staticIP.rima-tde.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1132791581 0 :lament!n=lament@S010600110999ad06.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1132791984 0 :Sgeper!n=sgeo@ool-18bf61f7.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1132792193 0 :ihope!n=ihope@c-67-172-99-160.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1132792239 0 :Sgeper!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ihope < 1132792251 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1132792333 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some combinators: ``^ab -> `ba; ```*abc -> `b`ac; ````+abcd -> ``bc``acd < 1132792859 0 :MadBrain2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, I should learn that kind of crazy functional programming one of those days < 1132792901 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those all perform their respective operations on Church numerals. < 1132792933 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As well, they are the reverse application function, the composition function, and the substituted composition function. < 1132794074 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh. Tried to make jogl work with gcj (it should be possible now, since there's libjawt included), but can't get past http://gehennom.org/~fis/jogl.txt < 1132794283 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm blaming lindi. Normally I'd have been content enough with Sun's evil proprietary JDK. < 1132794334 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :pau < 1132794627 0 :MadBrain2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: I see < 1132795032 0 :iano!n=iosgood@sub26-46.member.dsl-only.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1132795146 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_Whoa._ Jogl with SWT apparently even seems to work with gcj, provided I give it enough magic. < 1132795184 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcj --classpath ../jogl.jar:./swt.jar -findirect-dispatch -o jtest --main=jtest jtest.java ; export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.4.2-gcj-4.0-1.4.2.0/jre/lib/i386:.:../jogl-natives ; export CLASSPATH=../jogl.jar:./swt.jar ; ./jtest works. < 1132795381 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's jogl? < 1132795390 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OpenGL bindings for Java. < 1132795399 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1132795407 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you making? < 1132795436 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's not esoteric related... < 1132795486 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really, no. Our computer graphics course assignments were made with jogl, and I got curious whether it would work with gcj. (And incidentally I have an opengl application to write, and was going to use C++ for it, but compiled Java might suffice. If only it wouldn't be this horrible to write.) < 1132795522 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why gcj? < 1132795534 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's GNU. :p < 1132795541 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, yes < 1132795542 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lindi uses gcj, afaik. :p < 1132795569 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sun's java is much faster than gcj in my experience < 1132795646 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's an evil soulless corporation. Completely unlike the warm-and-fuzzy-feelings GNU. < 1132795665 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1132795697 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And gcj should be relatively fast, when all the classes are compiled to native code. I understand much of it's slowness is because it needs, for one reason or another, bytecode-interpret things. < 1132795725 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well, maybe I'll stick with C++, or plain C. < 1132796169 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I decided to make a design for SLOBOL. Programs will be in the form of SHA-1 hashes. < 1132796202 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SLOBOL? is that one of the lesser known ones? < 1132796403 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make that SHA-512 hashes. < 1132797089 0 :pgimeno_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1132797089 0 :MadBrain2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1132797102 0 :pgimeno_!n=pgimeno@124.Red-80-59-211.staticIP.rima-tde.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1132797228 0 :iano!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1132797360 0 :lirthy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1132797706 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the one that it's supposed to take a long time to compile programs ? < 1132797746 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if SHA-512 existed in 1982
< 1132797865 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err 1984 I guess < 1132797882 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it was 1982.. okay < 1132797925 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess: no sha512 in 1982... < 1132797990 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION suggests that SLOBOL not include SHA-512 then :)
< 1132798454 0 :lirthy!n=klutzy@dor20517.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1132800079 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1132801018 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :GregorR[notHome] < 1132804399 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: hey < 1132804420 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ftr, it appears that there is no universal decider. < 1132804452 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if by "decider" you mean "a machine which computes only primitive recursive functions" < 1132804460 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.math.psu.edu/~clemens/Math459/computability.pdf < 1132804471 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gives a proof that there is no universal primitive recursive function < 1132804516 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand... you can take any universal turing machine, and IF you only feed it turing machines that are guaranteed to halt on its input... then (trivially) the UTM will always halt :) < 1132804808 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Chris < 1132804904 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I incorrectly used the term "universal decider" when I really meant "machine that always halts" < 1132804904 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically what I was after was a language capable of describing every language that always halts < 1132804921 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1132804923 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1132804934 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think that can be done < 1132804954 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather < 1132804973 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that language must also be capable of describing languages that don't halt < 1132804983 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is that? < 1132805004 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it in the pdf? :) < 1132805009 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :diagonalization < 1132805011 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1132805037 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at it this way: < 1132805050 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to make the lang powerful enough for deciders, it will also need to understand tm's ? < 1132805067 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you want your machine (/language) to do, if it is given a machine (/language) that doesn't halt, on its input? < 1132805087 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that shouldn't be possible < 1132805095 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, how do you plan to stop it? < 1132805108 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the syntax of the language would prevent writing programs that wouldn't halt < 1132805125 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are some programs that won't halt that are undescribable in that language < 1132805146 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? how odd < 1132805160 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you give an example? < 1132805170 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1132805172 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I misread < 1132805207 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't wish to run programs that won't halt, I only wish to allow programs that do < 1132805228 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it would not be as powerful as a tm < 1132805268 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought we decided that PL-{GOTO} was the lnguage I was looking for < 1132805289 0 :kipple!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1132805310 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that it boiled down to a language consisting of if-else statements < 1132805317 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, how to explain this... PL-{GOTO} describes primitive recursive functions; all primitive recursive functions are guaranteed to halt; but not all functions that are guaranteed to halt are primitive recursive < 1132805337 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1132805382 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some general-recursive functions which could be proven to halt, but which can't be written in PL-{GOTO} < 1132805408 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh.. that's bad < 1132805419 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically... you can't write a PL-{GOTO} interpreter in PL-{GOTO}. even though the PL-{GOTO} interpreter will always halt. < 1132805433 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that's okay < 1132805444 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would write the PL-{GOTO} interpreter in a TM language < 1132805494 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't really matter to me what the interpreter is written in < 1132805507 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure. it's not as bad as it sounds; there are lots of interesting prim-rec functions; factorial, for example < 1132805590 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me make sure I understand what you're saying.. are you saying that the language PL-{GOTO} isn't capable of describing all possible deciders? < 1132805637 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it is capable of that. what it's not capable of is describing a decider which simulates some other decider (like a UTM simulates some other TM.) < 1132805646 0 :Sgeper!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sees why... PL-{GOTO}, if it wants to be able to always halt, cannot be turing-complete
< 1132805648 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/some/any/ < 1132805649 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh.. okay, no problem then < 1132805656 0 :Sgeper!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks
< 1132805668 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PL-{GOTO} is exactly what I was looking for then :) < 1132805672 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1132805675 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scared me for a minute hehe < 1132805709 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if I understand correctly, PL-{GOTO} can be implemented with if-else < 1132805726 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was thinking along different lines, a bit. consider: if you want to make a UTM which will only simulate TM's that halt... it has to prove that they halt first, which of course runs smack up against the halting problem < 1132805753 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops I said that wrong < 1132805754 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PL-{GOTO} is more than if-else. it contains loops. but the loops are guaranteed to halt < 1132805777 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, so I can unroll the loops < 1132805827 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I'd have a programming language where there was only if-else statements.. or are the loops not unrollable? < 1132805911 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"When a LOOP statement is encountered, the value of the LOOP variable specifies the # of times that the group of statements inside the LOOP is to be executed" < 1132805923 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the variable doesn't need to be constant < 1132805924 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, no < 1132805928 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think you can unroll that. < 1132805947 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1132805955 0 :Sgeper!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But LOOP variable's value can't be changed inside the loop? < 1132805963 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it assumes that the loop var won't change < 1132805968 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgep hehehe < 1132805979 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeper: looks like it can't < 1132806003 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it can't, then that should mean we could work backwards and discover the value of the loop variable? < 1132806029 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you say: LOOP X ; X <- X + 1 ; END then the loop occurs only the # of times as X originally contained < 1132806416 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other news, i've been trying to read this book: < 1132806418 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0387982817/103-0339561-1100666 < 1132806437 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can feel the hurting < 1132806629 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION guesses that mandelbrot is not discussed anywhere inside the text
< 1132806647 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops, it is < 1132806664 0 :pau!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wee things that halt < 1132806667 0 :pau!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :lament < 1132806669 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay.. a non-meaningless graphic used for a book cover < 1132806671 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and things that don't < 1132806700 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything that's fun doesn't halt :( < 1132806775 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that means you're no fun :( < 1132806837 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1132806853 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is this PL-{goto} you keep talking abouT? < 1132806915 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a language that Brainerd, et all made up < 1132806924 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a computation theory book < 1132806950 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it subtracts the GOTO statement < 1132806984 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder when that book will get here... hehe < 1132807002 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked at it in the school library for a few mins < 1132807090 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1132807335 0 :Sgep!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1132807336 0 :Sgeper!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1132807473 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi lament < 1132807485 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PL-{GOTO} actually looks trivial to implement < 1132807542 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the GOTO is the most complicated part of PL, by the looks of it < 1132807560 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION distrusts languages that halt
< 1132807600 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not fun when everything can be optimized to a single instruction :) < 1132807632 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i trust them to halt :> unless you give them an infinite amount of input or something pathological like that < 1132807748 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess one could have fun writing an interpreter for brainfuck-with-limited-running-time in it, or something like that. < 1132807759 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time bomb brainfuck. < 1132807799 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if that can be done at all...) < 1132807857 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should have a complementary langugage with programs guaranteed to not halt. < 1132807889 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Solving the halting problem in a neat new way. < 1132807935 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: something like adding [-]+[] to the end of bf programs? :) < 1132807997 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that could work, although i'm sure there're more interesting ways to do this. < 1132808013 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example a language in which the only statement is GOTO. < 1132808023 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll call it GOTO-{PL} < 1132808035 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1132808048 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah hrm < 1132808061 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tests his Linguine interpreter
< 1132808104 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION meditates on the profound differences between "1. goto 1" and "1. goto 2; 2. goto 1"
< 1132808245 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Program ::= Instruction [Program] < 1132808245 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instruction ::= (Loop | Assignment) ";" < 1132808245 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Loop ::= "LOOP" Name ";" Program "END" < 1132808245 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assignment ::= Name "<-" ("0" | Name ["+" "1"]) < 1132808245 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Name ::= <> < 1132808268 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's my renditiion of an EBNF grammar for PL-{GOTO}. < 1132808287 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it didn't have a hundred other things to do, i'd be tempted to implement it < 1132808291 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems horribly impotent < 1132808325 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's certainly a colourful way to say "not turing complete" :) < 1132808347 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there's not turing complete and there's not turing complete :) < 1132808363 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computers aren't turing-complete but they can still do a lot of stuff. < 1132808376 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this thing though... < 1132808407 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it almost reminds me of that guy's brainfuck variant ages ago on the mailing list. < 1132808415 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that had no loops. < 1132808418 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this thing can multiply arbitrarily large integers together... fsa's can't do that. < 1132808462 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but can you write a web server in it?? I don't think so!! < 1132808520 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a name for this class of abilities? < 1132808536 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :primitive recursive functions? < 1132808569 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, primitive recursive functions. < 1132808588 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome. < 1132808629 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which godel originally thought represented all computable functions. until ackermann gave a counterexample, which is today slightly famous < 1132808642 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1132809690 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1[0=72,0$,0+29,0$,0+7,0$,0$,0+3,0$,1=32,1$,0-24,0$,0+24,0$,0+3,0$,0-6,0$,0-8,0$,1+1,1$,1-23,1$]0 < 1132809710 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that too easy? :) < 1132810994 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: what on earth is that? < 1132811459 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello World in Linguine < 1132811534 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made Linguine after implementing BF in Spaghetti and noticing some things that were annoying, but not really esoteric either < 1132811590 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now there are infinite pointers, infinite memory cells, and each cell can hold any integer value < 1132811603 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much easier to work with < 1132811623 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than silly pointer building < 1132811849 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also adds negative cell values and line numbers just for fun < 1132811869 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err negative cell indices < 1132812000 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, cool < 1132812266 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite pointers? < 1132812278 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: do you think i should skip tomorrow's lecture? :) < 1132812330 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: infinite number of them, vs Spaghetti only having a single pointer < 1132812339 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1132812432 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps unlimited is a better term < 1132812476 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. I thought you'd have actual infinite pointers somehow. < 1132812500 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever _that_ would mean. < 1132812626 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very much since infinity isn't a number < 1132812689 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe -1[-2--3]-4 < 1132812761 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :translation: -1: mem[-2] -= -3; goto -4; < 1132812880 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my infinities are numbers :) < 1132813507 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: that's up to you, i suppose :) < 1132813587 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're gonna start objects i think :( < 1132813589 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :objects suck :( < 1132813879 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, but we also have course evaluations tomorrow, so if you skip, you won't get the chance to affect steve's funding in the future! < 1132813912 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1132813916 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i already had a course with steve < 1132813927 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i wrote he's the best prof ever and too bad he teaches CS and not math :) < 1132813962 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should be enough i think :) < 1132814700 0 :Arrogant!n=scotty@63.orlando-09-10rs.fl.dial-access.att.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1132815681 0 :lirthy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1132816163 0 :lirthy!i=klutzy@dor20517.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1132817316 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1132818201 0 :nooga!n=nooga@ip-50.net-41.rev.inter-c.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1132818215 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1132818468 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1132818490 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my bfi for MIDP1.0 crashes even emulator :F < 1132818755 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im the best < 1132819106 0 :Arrogant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1132819152 0 :jix!i=jix@F34df.f.strato-dslnet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1132819199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1132819200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1132819310 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ji jix < 1132819358 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ji? < 1132819359 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moin nooga < 1132819364 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi* < 1132819371 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:47 < nooga> my bfi for MIDP1.0 crashes even emulator :F < 1132819371 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:52 < nooga> im the best < 1132819380 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha^^ < 1132819396 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :midlet programming is cool < 1132819399 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like it < 1132819409 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with netBeans (sic) < 1132819945 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :java isnt so bad under linux < 1132823355 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1132828121 0 :pgimeno_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :pgimeno < 1132828143 0 :J|x!i=jix@F349d.f.strato-dslnet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1132828598 0 :CXI!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1132828771 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1132831565 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: jogl seems to compile on debian unstable quite easily, http://iki.fi/lindi/build-jogl.txt < 1132832053 0 :J|x!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :jix < 1132834180 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lindi; This is debian unstable, and it just didn't compile (tm) here. < 1132834237 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might retry it to see where it failed. < 1132834241 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: those four symlinks need to be fixed at least < 1132834252 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i already reported it as a bug < 1132834268 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: try taking exactly the same steps that i took < 1132834294 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Later tonight, perhaps. < 1132834327 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although with gcj probably a CNI-based opengl binding thing (instead of the JNI jogl uses) might make more sense. < 1132834369 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you tried to run anything with the jogl library you compiled? < 1132834391 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this vncserver does not provide GLX extension so nope :/ < 1132834440 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess I'll try to compile it. < 1132834454 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't take that long "Total time: 22 minutes 4 seconds < 1132834500 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what's with the "needs LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.4.2-gcj-4.0-1.4.2.0/jre/lib/i386 to find libjawt" thing, too. < 1132835072 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: https://jogl-demos.dev.java.net/source/browse/jogl-demos/ does not seem to respond so I can't get the source for those demos < 1132835098 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUILD FAILED < 1132835098 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/home/fis/prog/java/jogl/make/build.xml:1221: The following error occurred while executing this line: < 1132835101 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/home/fis/prog/java/jogl/make/build.xml:506: GlueGen returned: 1 < 1132835101 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same as last time. < 1132835104 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Total time: 4 minutes 59 seconds < 1132835137 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1132835149 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems I missed a symlink. < 1132835181 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: https://jogl-demos.dev.java.net/servlets/ProjectSource says that i need to login to see cvs instructions < 1132835216 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or mispointed, actually. < 1132835247 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.4.2-gcj-4.0-1.4.2.0/include/linux/jawt_md.h now points to ../../../gcc/[blah], which is missing one '..'. < 1132835255 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hope they'll fix those symlinks soon < 1132835325 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, indeed. i wrote down those instructions AFTER i had built it :) < 1132835364 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUILD FAILED < 1132835364 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/home/fis/prog/java/jogl/make/build.xml:1221: The following error occurred while executing this line: < 1132835368 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/home/fis/prog/java/jogl/make/build.xml:635: Compile failed; see the compiler error output for details. < 1132835377 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [javac] 565 problems (373 errors, 192 warnings) < 1132835430 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you put the full build log online? i used screen's "^a H" to capture it < 1132835444 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am capturing it now. < 1132835492 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: also, that ant build.xml is seriously broken. if the build fails once you have no way to retry easily :) < 1132835526 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it sets some variables in build targets. if it considers those build targets done the variables are never set and the build fails later because of that < 1132835555 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://gehennom.org/~fis/jogl-ant.txt (and jtest.java in the same directory is a really minimal test executable, which fails with sigsegv here when used with pre-built jogl.jar) < 1132835559 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(alternatively i'm missing something very important) < 1132835628 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: rm -fr and unzip the source again and retry ;) < 1132835719 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ergh." < 1132835737 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, from Gluegen.java: < 1132835738 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * You acknowledge that this software is not designed or intended for use < 1132835738 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * in the design, construction, operation or maintenance of any nuclear < 1132835738 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * facility. < 1132835743 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or fix the build.xml < 1132835791 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Already rm'd and restarted. This time under ^a-H from the start. < 1132836195 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A simple set of opengl bindings shouldn't really take this long to compile. :p < 1132836237 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [javac] 344 problems (344 warnings) < 1132836238 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay. < 1132836242 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, awt/swing is broken in gcj, gij and kaffe in debian unstable at the moment < 1132836277 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUILD SUCCESSFUL < 1132836277 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Total time: 8 minutes 27 seconds < 1132836305 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :congrats :) < 1132836367 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing I'll get the same sigsegv-from-JAWT_GetAWT with this jogl, too. < 1132836405 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see above, awt is broken in unstable :/ it works with jamvm and sablevm but i don't know if those can work with jogl < 1132836449 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both jamvm and sablevm cause java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: Native library `jawt' not found (as file `libjawt') in gnu.classpath.boot.library.path and java.library.path < 1132836455 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, SWT (>= 3.2M1 or M2) has an opengl canvas that's usable with jogl, managed to get a black screen with it. < 1132836473 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, swt works as eclipse uses it :) < 1132836488 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the swt in unstable is 3.1 still. < 1132836496 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but try any awt hello world and see it fail with gcj, gij or kaffe < 1132836543 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should get to work now, at least there I'd get paid for having to deal with things that don't work. < 1132836613 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although my Tomcat installation has (knocking-on-a-wooden-surface) miraculously fixed itself, apparently when I upgraded 5.5.9 -> 5.5.12. < 1132836652 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It runs on Sun JDK/JRE there. :p < 1132836662 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Away now. < 1132836663 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have glx on this 200MHz pentium system but gij seems to take a while to start... < 1132836770 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ok, i get a window with title "jogl/awt test..." with some random piexls in it < 1132836848 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i just did export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/home/lindi/local/jogl/build/obj/; java -cp /home/lindi/local/jogl/build/jogl.jar:. jtest < 1132837084 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. I wonder why I don't. < 1132837114 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's that "java" there? < 1132837392 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /usr/lib/jvm/java-gcj/bin/java < 1132837522 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://fitzsim.org/blog/ seems to mention jogl working too < 1132837619 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see if i can retrieve source of jogl-demos with http://iki.fi/lindi/cvsweb-dump.pl < 1132837687 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that's not quite secure .P < 1132841151 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But didn't you mention a broken awt? < 1132841167 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i did, that that's why i'm bit puzzled here < 1132841215 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: swing hello world fails with "** ERROR **: file ../../../src/libjava/jni/gtk-peer/gnu_java_awt_peer_gtk_GtkImage.c: line 572 (createRawData): assertion failed: (data_fid != 0)" < 1132841221 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With your invocation, I get: < 1132841222 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exception in thread "main" java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: libjawt: libjawt.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory < 1132841271 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if I add /usr/lib/jvm/java-1.4.2-gcj-4.0-1.4.2.0/jre/lib/i386 to LD_LIBRARY_PATH, I.. < 1132841275 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1132841295 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to get that SIGSEGV I mentioned. < 1132841331 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With this gcj-compiled jogl, it doesn't segfault. I might even have a window on my screen now - am not at home, so can't check. < 1132841399 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like a native-code-compiled jogl, though. < 1132841447 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that gcc is always bit old when it comes to gnu classpath. it's easier to test things with interpreters like jamvm because they can use gnu classpath cvs head directly < 1132841454 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just found netlogo.. pretty cool program < 1132841520 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: also note that /usr/lib/jvm/java-gcj/bin/javac points to ecj < 1132841745 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i get that UnsatisfiedLinkError if i try to run jtest with jamvm instead of 'java' which is gij < 1132841815 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My 'java' is gij too, and I still get it. < 1132841833 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I'm not sure what I compiled my jtest with, that .class might be old. < 1132841853 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that 'java' needs to be '/usr/lib/jvm/java-gcj/bin/java' which sets some LD_LIBRARY_PATH magic and calls gij < 1132841943 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what my "java" is, but apparently the problem was the .class was compiled with sun-jdk-javac. < 1132841956 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since my 'javac' symlink wasn't auto-managed by debian. < 1132842000 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe it wasn't the problem - I still have that manually corrected LD_LIBRARY_PATH exported. < 1132842003 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: netlogo seems non-free :/ < 1132842038 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: my javac points to /usr/bin/jikes-sablevm < 1132842067 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lindi-: i have much non-free software on my computer < 1132842087 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get the UnsatisfiedLinkError with /usr/lib/jvm/java-gcj/bin/javac -cp jogl/build/jogl.jar:. jtest.java ; /usr/lib/jvm/java-gcj/bin/java -cp jogl/build/jogl.jar:. jtest unless I manually include /usr/lib/jvm/java-1.4.2-gcj-4.0-1.4.2.0/jre/lib/i386 to LD_LIBRARY_PATH. < 1132842093 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Horribly long directories.) < 1132842101 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: i don't < 1132842120 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :big parts of my system are non-free < 1132842140 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jix: i find that uncool :) < 1132842157 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: try jikes-sablevm just in case < 1132842162 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like free-software but i have no problems with not-free software < 1132842171 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lindi; Just did. UnsatisfiedLinkError. < 1132842177 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrm < 1132842205 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i'll put full strace output online so you can figure out where our setups differ < 1132842366 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: http://iki.fi/lindi/javac_jtest.strace < 1132842476 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, that's a lot of open() attempts when the gcj classloader attempts load com.sun.opengl.impl.GLContextImpl. It tries to find lib-com-sun-opengl-impl-GlContextImpl.la, .so, lib-com-sun-opengl-impl.{la,so}, lib-com-sun-opengl.{la,so}, lib-com-sun.{la,so}, lib-com.{la,so}, and all these in a dozen directories. < 1132842639 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed :) < 1132842893 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see much differences in the javac straces. < 1132842914 0 :kipple!n=kipple@168.80-202-98.nextgentel.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1132842923 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume your "java" is smarter than mine and knows where to locate libjawt when run, but I'm not sure why's that. < 1132842927 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: apart from the fact that one fails and the other one doesn't? ;) < 1132842940 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I'm able to compile it just fine. < 1132842974 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought you got UnsatisfiedLinkError with javac too < 1132843021 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should've been more clear. I get the error on runtime, but not depending what I've compiled it with (tested jikes, ecj, sun-javac). < 1132843067 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1132843073 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll provide runtime strace too then < 1132843162 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only to the point where it says that i don't have GLX < 1132843179 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it takes forever to run on the pentium system that has GLX < 1132843216 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: try to compare to http://iki.fi/lindi/java_jtest.strace < 1132843308 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get the same UnsatisfiedLinkError when I "gcj -I jogl/build/jogl.jar -o jtest -lgij -findirect-dispatch jtest.java ; ./jtest -cp jogl/build/jogl.jar jtest", but it possibly-works when I manually set LD_LIBRARY_PATH=the-long-path-to-jawt. < 1132843488 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ok, i'll try to compile it to native then. usually i don't bother to try since gcj is simply much less flexible than the interpreters at the moment < 1132843558 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, one thing I easily notice is that "/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.4.2-gcj-4.0-1.4.2.0/jre/lib/i386/" is missing from the open()/access() attempts to locate libs on my system. < 1132843660 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1132843900 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think gcj is supposed to set it automagically. There's some talk in http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/java-patches/2005-q3/msg00285.html < 1132843935 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcj or gij? < 1132843963 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since those straces only use 'jikes' and 'gij', not gcj < 1132843988 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"libgcj", it says there. < 1132844004 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's about jawt: http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/java-patches/2005-q3/msg00295.html < 1132844081 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should try with 1.0.41-2 of java-gcj-compat instead of 1.0.30-4 I have installed. < 1132844093 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This testing/unstable hybrid is probably worse than unstable. :p) < 1132844110 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's probably it :) < 1132844129 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is completely unstable and has 1.0.41-2 < 1132844251 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, now it works, at least jikes-compiled and with /usr/lib/jvm/java-gcj/bin/java. The gcj-native-compiled (-lgij -findirect-dispatch blahblah) doesn't, but might after recompilation. < 1132844277 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, interesting, it doesn't. < 1132844358 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a summary: < 1132844364 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@colin:~/prog/java$ gcj -I jogl/build/jogl.jar -o jtest -lgij -findirect-dispatch jtest.java < 1132844368 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@colin:~/prog/java$ ./jtest -cp jogl/build/jogl.jar jtest < 1132844370 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exception in thread "main" java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: libjawt: libjawt.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory < 1132844374 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1132844374 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@colin:~/prog/java$ jikes-sablevm -cp jogl/build/jogl.jar jtest.java < 1132844375 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@colin:~/prog/java$ /usr/lib/jvm/java-gcj/bin/java -cp jogl/build/jogl.jar:. jtest < 1132844377 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :libGL warning: 3D driver claims to not support visual 0x23 < 1132844385 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That last warning is perfectly normal.) < 1132844405 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1132844439 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I don't think I'll use Java for my opengl application after all, anyway. :p < 1132844477 0 :lindi-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1132847846 0 :cmeme!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1132847901 0 :cmeme!n=cmeme@boa.b9.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1132847928 0 :cmeme!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1132847963 0 :cmeme!n=cmeme@boa.b9.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1132848472 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@61.247.144.9 JOIN :#esoteric < 1132849801 0 :Sgep!n=sgeo@ool-18bf61f7.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1132850882 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1132851085 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@61.247.144.9 JOIN :#esoteric < 1132861241 0 :Sgep!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye all; disconnecting for Thanksgiving < 1132861858 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1132862315 0 :Sgep!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1132870104 0 :GregorR-L!n=chatzill@c-24-21-138-66.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1132871097 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG HAPPY THXGVNG KTHXBYE < 1132874209 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht" < 1132876710 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Turkey > Strange philosophical conversations"