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01:12:24 <ihope> Yesterday I figured out what monads were.
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02:44:07 <GregorR> sekhmet: Hello grey-haired woman!
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11:39:30 <kipple> how goes your bizarre basic project?
11:41:45 <Keymaker> to be honest, i haven't worked it at all
11:42:23 <Keymaker> i mean, i haven't worked on it at all since the last time i talked about it, in the beginning of the project
11:43:17 <int-e> Keymaker: I chiseled off another 14 bytes from my entry last night :)
11:44:56 <Keymaker> int-e: i was just about to say that impressive job with the solution
11:45:24 <Keymaker> i wonder whether we have used the same algorithm
11:49:33 <Keymaker> but well, i assume your way is different, and obviously simpler
11:52:16 <kipple> hehe. that is a common fate for many esolang ideas I think :) (I have a lot of those myself)
11:54:45 <int-e> Keymaker: we'll see
11:55:33 <Keymaker> it's amazing program size.. when the competition began i was sure it'll be very hard for anyone to get the size under 500 instructions
11:57:03 <Keymaker> i didn't bother to shorten my program yesterday, since that wouldn't have helped that much.. at least get to release a nice 40x10 or 20x20 program block on my site when the competition is over..
11:57:41 <Keymaker> i'll post the md5 for the 400 instruction version after the simpsons..
11:57:49 <Keymaker> although there's no point basically :)
11:58:07 <int-e> that's a magical number :)
11:58:55 <int-e> it's a round number, it's a perfect square, it has no prime divisor >5 so it's quite smooth ...
12:00:15 <int-e> oh, btw, there are no boring integers.
12:00:24 <int-e> err, natural numbers.
12:00:35 <int-e> proof: assume that there are boring natural numbers
12:00:41 <Keymaker> by the way, gotta go for half an hour: the simpons :)
12:00:42 <int-e> then there'd be a smallest boring natural number
12:00:50 <int-e> as such, it'd be whooly remarkable.
12:03:43 <int-e> wholly. I knew I made a typo there.
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12:13:50 <lament> int-e: but there are boring reals, then?
12:15:16 <int-e> lament: definitely
12:15:44 <lament> it seems that the statement "there are no boring reals" is equivalent to the axiom of choice
12:15:48 <int-e> lament: because the things we can say about real numbers are countable
12:15:53 <lament> since it seems obvious that some reals are boring
12:15:59 <int-e> lament: so there are real numbers we can't really say anything about
12:16:01 <lament> then the axiom of choice must be false
12:16:31 <int-e> lament: hmm. not really.
12:16:41 <lament> int-e: Yes. the well-ordering principle!
12:16:44 <puzzlet> what are you talking about though
12:17:14 <int-e> lament: there's a countable model of set theory; this means that for every thing that can be proved, you only need countable many examples (witnesses) ...
12:18:41 <int-e> (at least as far as I remember, the von Neumann axioms can be modelled as first order formulas built on top of the 'element of' relation)
12:19:47 <lament> what's that have to do with anything?
12:20:34 <int-e> it means that even if the axiom of choice is true, you can still have uninteresting real numbers.
12:20:41 <int-e> you just don't need to use them anywhere.
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12:21:33 <lament> then exactly the same proof as for integers works for reals, too
12:21:59 <int-e> nope. you can say that the set of uninteresting reals has a member - but you can't name it
12:22:31 <int-e> there's nothing that helps you select one and only one out of them as being interesting.
12:22:37 <int-e> you need a well-ordering to do that.
12:22:49 <int-e> one that you can name
12:22:56 <lament> and the well-ordering principle is equivalent to AC
12:23:22 <int-e> lament: still, that only tells me that there are well orderings of the real numbers - but there are many of them; which one will you use?
12:23:43 * int-e sees nothing that makes one better than all others
12:24:07 <lament> int-e: what makes the <-relation ordering the best ordering for integers?
12:24:17 <int-e> lament: it's natural
12:36:37 <Keymaker> int-e: what kind of test calamari ought to run?
12:37:29 <Keymaker> i think the following: 1. file with only one new-line 2. file with few k of pattern "abc" 3. file with few ks of a, b, and c
12:37:57 <Keymaker> and perhaps something like bbbbccccaaaa
12:37:58 <int-e> Keymaker: I don't know. I've tested my program with short inputs (<=9 characters) and some selected long ones
12:41:22 <int-e> there are 29524 inputs of length <=9, which seems manageable
12:42:04 <int-e> for i in "" {a,b,c} {a,b,c}{a,b,c} {a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c} {a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c} {a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c} {a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c} {a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c} {a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c} {a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}{a,b,c}; do echo $i | ./bfigolf entry.b; done
12:42:29 <int-e> that's the basic idea
12:55:28 <int-e> . o O ( feeding invalid input to a program that does no error checking is bad )
12:56:26 <int-e> and I wonder why I'm getting Cell value too small (-1) errors :)
12:56:56 <int-e> there's an off-by-one bug in bfigolf.c (probably not serious though)
12:57:09 <Keymaker> (i've used another interpreter)
12:57:21 <int-e> namely, the realloc should be realloc(mem, (maxmp+1024+1)*sizeof(unsigned char))
12:57:34 <Keymaker> uh, i don't understand about that :)
12:57:35 <int-e> instead of the same without +1
12:58:00 <Keymaker> aha.. well, maybe you should inform calamari, i think
12:59:58 <Keymaker> int-e: any others than we going to enter the competition?
13:01:23 <int-e> Keymaker: I'll write a forum post
13:04:21 <int-e> Keymaker: I don't know; the usual suspects would be Laurent and Daniel. I've not heard anything from them for a while (but I've been staying away myself, too, so I wouldn't know.)
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13:08:18 <Keymaker> yeah.. laurent asked the value of new-line to be defined when the competition began, but haven't heard of him since then
13:08:42 <Keymaker> i hope we will get more entries
13:10:09 <Keymaker> jix was at least working on one, i think.. and calamari
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13:16:38 <int-e> heh. jix, are you still working on your bfgolf entry?
13:17:20 <int-e> (Keymaker and I are wondering if there will be more than 2 entries)
13:19:16 <Keymaker> well, at least it'll be interesting to see the different ways we (probably) are using
13:19:26 <fizzie> It was the a^n b^n c^n case?
13:20:24 <fizzie> I did consider trying to write an entry, but haven't had the time.
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13:20:39 <Keymaker> time seems to be a problem with many, i suppose
13:23:48 <Keymaker> int-e: got e-mail address? i'd need to ask one thing kinda related to this contest
13:24:42 <Keymaker> int-e: i can't use private messages
13:24:50 <Keymaker> int-e: unregistered users can't
13:25:16 <Keymaker> the reason i don't ask here in public is that the project is a surprise, kind of..
14:38:51 <Keymaker> *sigh* about 16 hours or something till the end of the competition..
14:46:35 <int-e> I'll definitely not write another entry nor optimize the one I have further *eg*
14:46:56 <int-e> unless someone submits a 331 bytes one
14:48:03 <Keymaker> yeah, it's a winning solution i'd assume
16:10:33 <int-e> Keymaker: eh, shouldn't that be 40 hours?
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19:20:10 <ihope> ```si`k``si`k``sii``s``s`kski
19:21:06 <ihope> I think that's the Church numeral for Steinhaus's Mega.
19:30:14 <ihope> And ```si`k``si`k``si`k``sii``s``s`kski is much, much bigger...
20:15:32 <ihope> Now here's a nice sequence: !1 = 2, !2 = 8, !3 = 402653184*2^402653184.
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20:44:28 <nooga> i want finally to develop own, huge, usefull language and become lie Larry Wall or Bjarne Stroustrup
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20:46:44 <nooga> who wants to help me? ;p
20:48:08 <GregorR> You want to become like Larry Wall, the primary developer of a language so huge and obnoxious that it's /not/ useful?
20:49:11 <lindi-> you mean "\/not\/" ? ;)
20:49:29 <nooga> oh, i will begin with simple things... like compiling arithmetic expressions, flow control and simple types
20:49:57 <lindi-> heh, i've spent the last two days writing a compiler for a school project
20:50:09 <ihope> Wait! Functional or imperative?
20:50:18 <nooga> i've spend last year trying to write complete compiler :]
20:50:47 <lindi-> nooga: you obviously lack some deadlines :)
20:51:08 <GregorR> nooga: Finish a compiler for it tomorrow or I WILL HUNT YOU DOWN
20:51:26 <nooga> i think it should be like C++ (but more like Java) + perl + ML ;]
20:51:40 <ihope> All imperative, then?
20:52:36 <lindi-> doesn't ML support functional programming well?
20:52:59 <nooga> but i meant "a little bit of ML"
20:53:32 <nooga> to allow something like this: a = {something; something; something;} + b;
20:53:52 <nooga> soemtimes it's usefull
20:54:09 <ihope> a = map (+b) [something,something,something]
20:55:42 <nooga> and i plan builtin perl-like regexp
20:56:03 <nooga> no fuc**g headers like in C++
20:56:27 <nooga> methods implemented inside classes
20:56:33 * GregorR tries to figure out what curse word is spelled fuc__g ... one too few letters for fucking ...
20:56:56 <nooga> but treat * like in wildcards...
20:57:14 <GregorR> I'll treat it like regex :P
20:57:20 <GregorR> So it could be fucccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccg
20:57:29 <ihope> Fucing, I suppose...
20:58:31 <GregorR> GASP YOU TYPED A CURSY WORD!!!!!!!
20:58:43 <nooga> i forgot about the FUCKING K before FUCKING C
20:59:03 * ihope stares in some ranom direction
20:59:41 <GregorR> (The random direction happens to be exactly towards the screen)
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21:03:35 * calamari suggests Linguine for the Ego Bot
21:04:42 * ihope wonders if IRCbots like lignuine
21:05:08 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls
21:05:10 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} glass glypho kipple lazyk malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql udage01
21:05:14 <calamari> yeah, but they can only take one line.. :)
21:05:37 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls
21:05:37 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo befunge bch bf{8,[16],32,64} glass glypho kipple lazyk malbolge pbrain rail sadol sceql udage01
21:05:48 <calamari> unless Gregor changed it so that programs can use \n for multiple lines
21:05:58 <nooga> there's SADOL there!!!
21:06:03 <lindi-> nooga: maybe http://www.cs.hut.fi/Opinnot/T-106.550/Harjoitustyo/vaihe3.pdf could be helpful to you?
21:07:12 <GregorR> Just use pastebin for multiple lines.
21:07:50 <nooga> !sadol (3~f1(5:a0:b1:i2@|<i#_0=i#_0(2?%i2:b+ba:a+ab:i+i1?%#_02ba:l,220@:l-l1!+f-,220l"1
21:08:58 <EgoBot> 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 1597 2584 4181
21:09:43 <ihope> What would happen if I !bf +[]?
21:10:36 <nooga> lindi-: who makes this minijava?
21:11:00 <lindi-> nooga: what do you mean?
21:11:38 <nooga> who's Lina Salmela
21:12:07 <ihope> Hmm... did somebody just say "Testing"?
21:16:24 <nooga> sounds almost like minijavaa
21:19:27 <ihope> Maybe I could make a language called Lava...
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21:22:04 <calamari> mm Lava.. write hot code, spewing ash and poisonous fumes.. then let your code harden into an impenetrable mass
21:23:35 <nooga> excuse me for that "shut up"...0.0
21:24:02 <nooga> i got to lear ruby
21:24:27 <calamari> I'd buy a new perl book for version 5, if I ever used the books I currently have
21:24:51 <calamari> I could sell them as "Like New" :(
21:30:00 <nooga> i elarn new languages from the net and documentation
21:30:10 <nooga> i think the first two is the worse
21:30:19 <nooga> then every another is much easier
21:30:49 <jix> i learnd the first language from a computer magazine...
21:35:07 <nooga> my first was pascaal
21:35:21 <jix> my first was real-basic
21:35:28 <jix> a visual-basic clone for mac os
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21:54:08 <nooga> lindi-: tell me, is "Leena" name for a woman or man??
21:55:31 <lindi-> nooga: at least in finnish that's woman's name
21:59:50 <lindi-> nooga: that's man's name
22:01:21 <nooga> in Polish most woman's names are ended with 'a', only exeption is diminution for name Jakub - Kuba
22:01:28 <nooga> Kuba is man's name
22:02:39 <nooga> i think that avoids mistakes :>
22:06:09 <nooga> hm, does most adjectives in finnish end with -nen ?
22:06:49 <lindi-> nooga: some do but i wouldn't say that most
22:07:26 <nooga> i'm just flipping through a finnish dictionary
22:07:54 <nooga> i've tried to learn finnish but there's no good courses
22:08:15 <nooga> only phrase books and dictionaries ;/
22:12:03 <nooga> and it's hell hard!
22:13:44 <Gs30ng> Polish is well known as a truly hard one
22:14:08 <nooga> but Finnish is worse ;d
22:14:57 <nooga> well.. maybe that's because I use Polish fluently from child
22:15:09 <nooga> and it's my natural, native language
22:15:33 <Gs30ng> for english-native, it's really hard to learn korean
22:15:46 <Gs30ng> but for korean-native, learning english is somewhat easier
22:16:01 <nooga> same here i think...
22:16:25 <Gs30ng> since korean is refered to be more complex than english
22:16:31 <Gs30ng> so may the force be with you, nooga
22:16:37 <nooga> english is easier than Polish, Korean, Chineese, Finnish, Hungarian, Russian, Nyjorsk, Dannish... and some other ;;p
22:17:24 <Gs30ng> i think you(and i)'ve got a good condition to learn another language... having a complex lang for own native lang
22:19:51 <nooga> frend of mine have learned hangul
22:24:48 <nooga> but i saw a Finn in out TV who speaks Polish fluently and without any odd accent
22:25:39 <lindi-> nooga: just try to IRC on finnish channels :)
22:26:15 <nooga> how do you "21th" in Finnish?
22:27:07 <lindi-> kahdeskymmenesensimminen
22:28:00 <nooga> and kuka means "who" but kukka means "a flower"
22:28:26 <nooga> mato - worm, matto - carpet
22:29:03 <nooga> puro - stream, puuro - porridge
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22:29:09 <lindi-> right. it shouldn't be a problem if you write them. pronouncing might be trickier for a foreigner though
22:29:57 <nooga> those 16 diphtongs are also quite hard
22:31:04 <nooga> for me it's hard to say something between a and e and i :)
22:31:18 <nooga> because Polish is rather hard
22:32:16 <nooga> i mean we've got hard speech sounds
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