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02:29:23 <lament> cool, an article about interactive fiction on mobygames
05:10:17 <GregorR> Anybody mind making a judgment about a wiki template?
05:11:40 <GregorR> Never mind, the person I was trying to talk to reappeared :P
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07:12:56 <thin> is this a good language design channel to debate about languages, even if they aren't necessarily esoteric?
07:13:32 <lament> i don't know of any other language design channels
07:14:07 <lament> unless #lisp counts :)
07:14:11 <thin> well i was reading some php vs ruby on rails discussion and i started wondering, what the heck is necessary for fast development in a language..
07:14:25 <GregorR> <lament> Python, that's what!
07:14:39 <GregorR> Thought I'd answer preemptively for ya'.
07:15:01 <GregorR> That is a curious question.
07:15:14 <thin> personally i'm a forther.. and i was attracted to its promise of fast development, but i spend most of my time messing with the low level stuff :/
07:15:14 <GregorR> I think first and foremost it has to be interpreted, and abstract away the concept of pointers.
07:15:32 <lament> fast development in forth is a horrible horrible lie :)
07:15:45 <thin> well its theoretically possible! ;)
07:15:58 <lament> i won't believe it till it's proven
07:16:14 <lament> i bet the proof will use the axiom of choice
07:16:24 <GregorR> It also has to be very internally consistent.
07:16:42 <GregorR> One thing that annoys me about PHP is that some functions take (haystack, needle) and others take (needle, haystack)
07:16:43 <lament> so basically, it has to be Python.
07:16:58 <GregorR> Also, strings have to be mutable.
07:17:01 <thin> i heard ruby was the new python :P
07:17:01 <GregorR> Otherwise it's just worthless.
07:17:36 <lament> thin: why do we need a new python, when the old one works just fine?
07:17:37 <GregorR> Ruby is the new shiny object.
07:17:52 <lament> Ruby on Rails is becoming somewhat buzzwordish, true
07:17:54 <GregorR> I don't like Ruby because it inherited all the worst parts of Perl and all the worst parts of OO >_> <_<
07:18:14 <thin> heh, what are those parts?
07:18:23 <GregorR> $_ will never be acceptable.
07:18:31 <GregorR> That's the most notable :P
07:18:40 <thin> don't hackers love $_ ? :P
07:18:50 <GregorR> Morons who think they're hackers.
07:19:09 <thin> whats the harm in $_ though?
07:19:09 <GregorR> Also, the whole @a is an array, $a['blah'] is an element unless that element is an array in which case it's still @a['blah'] but then $a['blah'][0] OH GOD
07:19:28 <GregorR> Side effects are usually bad, and $_ is the definition of side effects.
07:19:35 <GregorR> Virtually EVERYTHING modifies $_.
07:19:42 <GregorR> You can never keep it consistent.
07:19:46 <GregorR> Plus, things like this are just ugly:
07:19:56 <lament> GregorR: that's in Perl, though
07:20:07 <lament> GregorR: Ruby doesn't use them that way
07:20:08 <GregorR> lament: Yeah, I'm going a bit overboard on perl hatred ^^
07:20:16 <GregorR> Forgot we were talking about Ruby ;)
07:20:44 <lament> the nice thing about Python is that it pretty much requires good style.
07:20:47 <GregorR> Anyway, I don't like any language that absolutely FORCES me to use OO even when it's not the appropriate paradigm.
07:20:59 <lament> nobody *EVER* uses it.
07:21:10 <GregorR> Wow, I didn't even know it had it.
07:21:50 <lament> _ only works in the command-line interpreter.
07:22:06 <lament> (mind you that's a good thing anyway :D )
07:22:25 <lament> Neither Python nor Ruby force you to use OO
07:22:27 <GregorR> Yeah, it really ought not to exist.
07:22:47 <lament> thin: the whole "hackers love this" argument is not gonna work in this channel :)
07:22:52 <GregorR> lament: But in Ruby, it's always "actually you're defining a method in the class Object so secretly you're using OO hahahah!"
07:22:56 <lament> thin: if we want Malbolge, we know where to find it
07:23:18 <lament> hackers love )*(#&)(*#$G(*FG(#)&HD(*>Y&()K>%
07:23:51 <GregorR> {M[m(_o)O!"Glass is still better though ;)"(_o)o.?]}
07:24:03 <GregorR> Because Glass forces you to use OO whether you want to or not :P
07:24:16 <thin> i was thinking of paul graham's language popularity article when i said "hackers love $_" :P although i was sort of making up the statement
07:24:36 <lament> Languages are popular because people are idiots.
07:24:39 <GregorR> Perl is popular more out of momentum than anything else.
07:24:45 <lament> All popular languages are shit.
07:24:50 <lament> (Python is pretty crappy too)
07:24:53 <thin> i'll definitely agree there
07:24:55 <thin> forth is the best!
07:24:56 <GregorR> lament: Python's pretty popular....erm.
07:25:06 <lament> Forth's pretty popular... used to be, anyway
07:25:21 <GregorR> Now Brainfuck is a beautiful thing.
07:25:31 <thin> its not for the rapid developer :P
07:25:32 <lament> brainfuck is rather popular
07:25:43 <lament> brainfuck is pretty much the only esoteric language i hear mentioned outside this channel
07:25:47 <GregorR> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Glass rocks"(_o)o.?]}
07:25:50 <lament> well, sometimes befunge and whitespace
07:25:56 <thin> haven't heard of glass :)
07:26:22 <thin> ah, i'm sorry ;)
07:26:35 <lament> he made it, and all he can write it in is the "glass rocks" program
07:26:40 <GregorR> thin: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Glass (not that you're probably interested at all)
07:26:44 <lament> that's how awesome a language it is
07:27:01 <GregorR> !glass {M[m(_d)(Debug)!(_d)(cl).?]}
07:27:04 <EgoBot> A Arr Arre Debug I M O S V
07:27:18 <GregorR> Woah, what happened to all the builtin functions O_O
07:28:09 <lament> GregorR: You never wrote them. that's what happened.
07:28:17 <GregorR> jix wrote some of them X-P
07:28:27 <lament> Obviously he didn't :)
07:29:10 <GregorR> !glass {M[m(_d)(Debug)!(_d)(cl).?]}
07:30:56 <GregorR> Oh, hahahah, I know how, too. I put filesize limits on the interpreters that are too small for it XD
07:34:49 <thin> so much for figuring out the magic key to rapid development and giving this key to forth and Glass!
07:35:15 <lament> the magic key to rapid development is being a good programmer.
07:35:52 <lament> And knowing what's the right tool for the job (which is part of being a good programmer)
07:36:14 <thin> but knowing the magic key lets you choose the right tools ;P
07:36:51 <lament> I doubt there's a key magic enough that it lets you choose Forth.
07:36:51 <GregorR> <lament> The magic key is: "Python"
07:37:12 <GregorR> Sorry, lament, you're not actually anywhere near as predictable as I'm making you out to be XD
07:38:13 <lament> You just lack predictive powers :)
07:38:36 <thin> under ideal conditions, you do all your development within forth in the interactive interface, testing each word on the fly to build them together etc..
07:39:34 <lament> while receiving a blowjob
07:42:12 <lament> And you're not actually developing anything. Just smoking a joint or something.
07:42:28 <GregorR> And you get paid for this.
07:42:55 <lament> I guess the magic key to rapid development is being a rock star, then.
07:44:15 <lament> in the meantime, just use Python :D
07:45:00 <thin> you read tom peters?
07:45:37 <thin> the rock star comment
07:46:36 <thin> tom peters is a motivational business guru guy and his book has comments in it like "Be the rock star of development!" or some such
07:46:47 <thin> it's not as bad as it sounds ;)
07:47:36 <GregorR> Get rich by selling books on getting rich to tons of people? ^^
07:51:27 <thin> nah its not a get rich/self help book
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20:01:57 <lament> Anybody awake? Tell kate` something interesting
20:07:23 -!- SimonRC has changed nick to _YOU.
20:07:28 * _YOU HAVE RECEIVED A FATAL ERROR, PRESS ALT + F4 TO REPAIR THIS IMMEDIATELY
20:07:41 -!- _YOU has changed nick to SimonRC.
20:08:49 <lament> that's what happens when i press alt-f4
20:09:05 <jix> nothing happens
20:10:07 -!- SimonRC has changed nick to _YOU.
20:10:59 * _YOU HAVE RECEIVED A FATAL ERROR, TYPE "/QUIT" then "rm -rf /*" TO REPAIR THIS IMMEDIATELY
20:11:16 -!- _YOU has changed nick to SimonC.
20:11:22 -!- SimonC has changed nick to SimonRC.
20:11:27 <jix> well if i type /quit my client will quit but if i type rm -rf /* i get an not connected to server error
20:11:27 <lament> SimonRC: you're doing it wrong.
20:11:47 <lament> SimonRC: no need to trick people with action messages
20:12:25 <lament> You just need to run an IRP program.
20:12:45 <lament> Please quit your IRC client and delete all the files on your computer.
20:14:19 <lament> "A critical security flaw has been discovered in the current IRP implementation. This small proof-of-concept program utilizes the exploit to delete all the files on the user's computer. Enter #esoteric to run the program."
20:16:09 <Baughn> lament: I tried, but it tells me I've already joined. How do I fix it?
20:17:44 <lament> Switch it off. What does it know. It's not even Turing-complete.
20:18:13 <lament> well, what do you know.
20:18:37 <Baughn> I'll just wait for the universe to run out of tape. That should do it.
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21:55:31 <jix> moin calamari
22:10:41 <lament> hello, calamari. Please disregard all IRP programs.
22:18:10 <GregorR> Because to follow that request, he'd have to disregard that request ;)
22:20:31 <GregorR> lament: Are you going to post that security flaw to the IRP page? :p
22:22:26 <GregorR> Dang it, what is with my shift >_>
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