←2006-06-03 2006-06-04 2006-06-05→ ↑2006 ↑all
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00:20:05 * SimonRC fails to describe this: http://www.sibology.com/CAUTION.HTM
00:20:06 <SimonRC> just read the darn thing
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01:23:49 <coder_> w00t
01:23:56 <coder_> Finished my Brain**** to C thingie
01:24:02 <coder_> Written in D
01:24:07 <coder_> (In under 5 minutes ;P)
01:24:45 <fizzie> Now do C to Brainf*ck in under 5 minutes.
01:24:50 <coder_> :P
01:24:55 <coder_> Yeh, right ;)
01:25:12 <coder_> Or C++ to brain****
01:25:21 <coder_> Classes in brain****....... That'd be interesting XD
01:25:24 <ihope> Haskell to Unlambda.
01:25:32 <coder_> :P
01:25:44 <coder_> I HATE functional languages... tried O'Caml yesterday
01:26:54 <coder_> ....I <3 D
01:27:00 * ihope looks at D
01:27:07 <coder_> digitalmars.com/d
01:27:13 <bsmntbombdood> coder_:bf to C sure is hard ;-)
01:27:19 <coder_> I know ;)
01:27:33 <coder_> Just to take a peek at the standard library in D
01:27:47 <bsmntbombdood> Ive heard great things about D
01:27:49 <bsmntbombdood> but never tried it
01:27:50 <coder_> Yeah
01:27:52 <coder_> Ohhhhh yeah
01:28:00 <coder_> I've just recently started using it, and I LOVE it
01:28:07 <bsmntbombdood> what's so good about it
01:28:13 <coder_> EVERYTHING
01:28:17 * coder_ stares into space
01:28:26 <coder_> Go to #d
01:28:28 <coder_> :P
01:28:30 <coder_> I'm too lazy
01:28:33 <coder_> XD
01:28:58 <ihope> module Main where import System.Environment; main = getArgs >>= print
01:29:05 <ihope> That program prints its arguments.
01:29:10 <SimonRC> hey! #d exists
01:29:14 <coder_> Ay
01:29:29 <coder_> Its the channel for D, as I said :p
01:29:37 <bsmntbombdood> lol simon
01:29:37 <SimonRC> well, yeah
01:30:30 <ihope> Hey, it looks like D could be almost as good as Haskell!
01:31:09 <ihope> Of course, it's hard to compare a language like Haskell to a language like D, because they're so different.
01:31:11 <coder_> I'd take that as an insult, but some might not ;]
01:31:19 <coder_> (I hate functional languages)
01:31:53 <ihope> Just don't go around telling others to avoid them. They might like them :-)
01:32:03 <bsmntbombdood> functional languages are cool
01:32:22 * ihope wishes there were a programming language that everybody liked
01:32:34 <coder_> D
01:32:37 * bsmntbombdood tells ihope he is stupid
01:32:48 <bsmntbombdood> everyone wants something else in a language
01:33:01 <ihope> Well, sheesh, just put everything into one language!
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01:34:26 <ihope> Oh, D is object-oriented and all that?
01:34:48 * ihope wonders what the advantage to having functions tied to values is
01:34:50 <_coder_> Can be :P
01:35:02 <ihope> Why foo.bar when you can bar(foo)?
01:35:38 <bsmntbombdood> foo.bar is better
01:35:47 <_coder_> It depends what mood I'm in
01:35:49 <_coder_> :P
01:35:59 <_coder_> I have mood/language swings XD
01:36:17 <ihope> What if foo.bar and bar(foo) are actually the same thing?
01:36:35 <ihope> And foo.bar(baz) = bar(foo,baz).
01:36:38 <bsmntbombdood> in python they are
01:36:54 <_coder_> poo..... haircut time
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01:37:43 <fizzie> Perl also has $foo->bar(...) equivalent to bar($foo, ...).
01:38:04 <ihope> Haskell just plain doesn't have foo.bar.
01:38:16 <ihope> But there's nothing preventing you from adding it.
01:38:21 <bsmntbombdood> there's oo dilaects of haskell
01:38:29 <ihope> foo.bar = bar foo -- this is all you need
01:40:38 <fizzie> (Actually in Perl $foo->bar(...) is more like <module of $foo>::bar($foo, ...), since that's where it looks for the bar().)
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01:50:35 <SimonRC> you could wrtite a module in haskell to allow it to emulate OO, I suppose
01:53:48 * ihope wants a program that takes no input and produces no output
01:55:24 <bsmntbombdood> what are you talking about ihope
01:55:46 <ihope> I'm talking about a program that takes no input and produces no output.
01:56:04 <bsmntbombdood> int main(){return 0;}
01:57:40 <ihope> module Main where main = return ()
01:57:52 <ihope> Except that yours is shorter.
01:58:04 <bsmntbombdood> void main(){}
01:58:07 <bsmntbombdood> even shorter
01:58:13 <ihope> Forget the introduction, then, and make it "main=return()"
01:58:37 <GregorR> main(){}
01:58:47 <ihope> Eeh.
01:58:51 <GregorR> Also about the shortest valid C program.
01:58:57 <GregorR> +complete
01:59:01 <ihope> What's the shortest?
01:59:26 <GregorR> Probably that :P
01:59:40 <ihope> <- you can't beat that for smallness
01:59:48 <GregorR> I said "+complete"
01:59:50 <bsmntbombdood> Python can
01:59:52 <GregorR> That is, runnable.
01:59:58 <ihope> I didn't say that was C.
02:00:03 <GregorR> Ah
02:00:09 <GregorR> It's one of those p-languages then.
02:00:22 <ihope> One of those whats?
02:00:22 <bsmntbombdood> Python's shortest is empty
02:00:31 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: well, that program was empty!
02:00:34 <GregorR> ihope: P-languages. Perl, Python, PHP
02:00:37 <GregorR> , Pike
02:00:56 <GregorR> Ruby is an honorary P-language too :P
02:01:05 <ihope> Plazy K and Prainfuck?
02:01:15 <GregorR> Nope, those aren't P-languages.
02:01:29 <bsmntbombdood> brainfuck's shortest is empty
02:01:41 <GregorR> P-languages are common, popular scripting languages.
02:01:48 <SimonRC> ug
02:01:59 <ihope> Python's a scripting language?
02:02:07 <bsmntbombdood> some would say
02:02:11 <GregorR> *shrugs*
02:02:37 <SimonRC> erm, OSes have been known to crash when there is no explicit return from main
02:02:43 <ihope> Whee.
02:02:47 <GregorR> Mine doesn't :P
02:03:10 <SimonRC> so, main must return
02:03:12 <ihope> main() // how's this?
02:03:19 <bsmntbombdood> nope
02:03:24 <SimonRC> and there shouldn't be an implicit int return type
02:03:31 <ihope> main{} // this?
02:03:33 <GregorR> There shouldn't be, but it's valid.
02:03:34 <GregorR> ihope: Nope
02:03:40 <GregorR> ihope: Also, that's not a valid C comment :P
02:03:51 <ihope> Oh.
02:04:06 <ihope> main(){} -- Pretend this is Haskell, then.
02:04:27 <SimonRC> well, some C compilers and linkers produced the null program from and empty file
02:04:34 <bsmntbombdood> ihope: /* this is a C comment */
02:04:39 <SimonRC> but modern ones will complain that main is missing
02:05:19 <SimonRC> I remember a clever C program that outputted 99 if c99-style comments were understood and 89 otherwised
02:05:42 <GregorR> Hmmmmmmmm
02:05:53 <SimonRC> it had a line endint with //**/, and the next started with -
02:06:23 <SimonRC> which was subtract in C99 and negative in C89
02:06:37 <SimonRC> anyway, more tetris now I think
02:06:47 <bsmntbombdood> i don't get it
02:06:53 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: ?
02:07:06 <SimonRC> on second thoughts, no more tetris
02:10:34 <GregorR> int main() {
02:10:34 <GregorR> int a = 2 //**/ 2
02:10:34 <GregorR> - 1;
02:10:34 <GregorR> printf("C99 comments are %ssupported\n", a ? "" : "not ");
02:10:34 <GregorR> }
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02:11:07 <GregorR> Actually, that should be 'void main'
02:11:09 <GregorR> But yeah, that works.
02:12:11 <SimonRC> nah, it used some clever formula inside a printf
02:13:11 <GregorR> void main() {
02:13:11 <GregorR> printf("C99 comments are %ssupported\n", (2 //**/ 2
02:13:11 <GregorR> -1) ? "" : "not ");
02:13:11 <GregorR> }
02:16:21 <GregorR> int main() {
02:16:21 <GregorR> printf("%d\n", 89 + (20 //**/ 2
02:16:21 <GregorR> - 10));
02:16:21 <GregorR> }
02:16:29 <GregorR> If you're so stuck on the original output :P
02:17:58 <ihope> Hmm, Unlambda/C polyglot...
02:18:26 <ihope> s/C/Haskell/
02:18:36 <ihope> s/Haskell/Unlambda/ :-P
02:18:53 <GregorR> ...
02:19:03 <GregorR> Unlambda/Unlambda polyglot?
02:20:10 <ihope> Yes.
02:20:16 <ihope> Easy to write, I'm sure...
02:20:23 <GregorR> lol
02:25:34 <ihope> The null program as a Brainfuck/Unlambda polyglot: i
02:27:33 <ihope> Now, it could be impossible to write many Unlambda polyglots due to Unlambda's strict syntax thingy.
02:28:15 <ihope> Wait... Unlambda has comments, doesn't it?
02:28:25 <SimonRC> ooh, accurate: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=718 :-D
02:33:33 <ihope> Aha!
02:33:41 <ihope> !bf_txtgen Hi!
02:34:02 <ihope> ...
02:34:14 <EgoBot> 52 +++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>++><<<<-]>---.>.>+++. [302]
02:35:15 <ihope> You know, writing an !unlambda_txtgen would be purdy darn easy.
02:36:10 <ihope> Polyglot: http://pastebin.com/756864
02:44:58 * SimonRC goes to bed (ihope, couldn't that be automated? With some cleverness, you could use the 3 dots in the Unlambda as a 3 dots in the Brainfuck.)
02:45:27 <ihope> Just a second...
02:45:38 <SimonRC> uh?
02:46:04 <ihope> Hmm.
02:46:45 <ihope> Eh, it'd be easy enough.
02:47:12 <ihope> Just pull off the comments for both languages when you do the .'s.
02:47:25 <SimonRC> unless you wanted to print any of [],.
02:47:48 <SimonRC> (it's easy to compensate for spurious <>+-)
02:48:02 * SimonRC goes to bed.
02:48:33 <ihope> Okay. Mouse/GOTO++ polyglot. Get to work! :-)
02:50:18 <ihope> Oh, the GOTO++ documentation is in French.
02:50:47 <ihope> 99/Blank polyglot?
02:50:49 <GregorR> Step one: A French/English polyglot :P
02:51:38 <ihope> Can a Blank 99-beer program be written with every line beginning with a #?
02:56:36 <ihope> Probably not.
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05:34:32 <wildhalcyon> Now you guys have got me looking into D
05:38:01 <_coder_> W00t :)))
05:38:03 <_coder_> D owns
05:49:44 <bsmntbombdood> downs?
06:04:49 <_coder_> d owns
06:09:12 <bsmntbombdood> downs?
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06:22:30 <wildhalcyon> alright, off to bed with dreams of esolangs
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13:29:48 * SimonRC goes
13:54:54 <jix> moin
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14:51:05 <ihope> Woot, my esolang is finished!
14:54:37 * ihope writes an 'H' program
14:59:01 <ihope> Hmm, this program's too big.
14:59:05 * ihope writes another one
15:09:29 <ihope> Okay. The program, in a format which isn't really part of the language, nor is it recognized by anything: http://pastebin.com/757620
15:11:07 <ihope> And the program's done: http://pastebin.com/757622
15:20:32 <ihope> Hey, that's not right...
15:25:09 <ihope> According to the character count, that's an invalid program.
15:25:18 <ihope> Ah well. It probably doesn't matter :-P
15:26:40 <ihope> Hey, (()) is a valid program!
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16:24:32 <SimonRC> hi
16:24:41 <SimonRC> ihope: what's thios lang?
16:24:54 <ihope> I call it (()).
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16:35:24 <SimonRC> ihope: describe it
16:35:28 <SimonRC> or explain
16:35:38 <SimonRC> actually, explain would be better
16:35:48 <SimonRC> description isn't necessary
17:01:00 <ihope> Well, it's another monadic one.
17:01:35 <ihope> It has an apply operator, just like Unlambda, but this time it's (.
17:02:09 <ihope> It only has one primitive combinator, ). It represents \x.``xs``s`kkk.
17:02:50 <ihope> Your program is passed the I/O functions bind, return, input and output, in that order. The mnemonic is BRIO.
17:03:08 <SimonRC> erk
17:03:13 <ihope> In fact, they were put in that order because of that mnemonic :-)
17:03:17 <SimonRC> sounds interesting
17:03:41 <SimonRC> why "\x.``xs``s`kkk"?
17:03:56 <ihope> Because that way, ()) is k and (())) is s... I think.
17:04:17 <ihope> Input takes a character as a Church numeral and returns an action; output is an action which returns a character as a Church numeral.
17:07:26 <SimonRC> makes sense
17:07:33 <SimonRC> sounds evil, too
17:09:08 <SimonRC> do the brackets always match?
17:09:55 <ihope> I'm pretty sure they do, as long as you stick an extra ( in front.
17:10:14 <ihope> And that's part of the syntax, so... yeah.
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17:23:05 <ihope> Hmm, what about a language where the dimensions are finite, but the number of them is infinite?
17:23:18 <ihope> You know: a 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x... universe.
17:23:27 <jix> would be very URGH!....
17:26:16 <SimonRC> hmm
17:26:29 <SimonRC> well, each set of co-ordinates would be infinitely long, for a start
17:27:15 <jix> well if you start at 0........ you'd need infinity steps to get a infinite long coordinate (assuming you can't jump to a specified coordinate)
17:27:27 <SimonRC> And, assuming integral coordinates in each case, is it clear by the diagonal argument that there is more space in that kind of universe than in an infinite univers with a finite number of dimensions
17:27:52 <SimonRC> i.e. 2^inf > inf^2
17:28:17 <jix> yeah you get uncountable inifinite many positions
17:28:27 <jix> right?
17:28:39 <SimonRC> yes
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18:05:05 <SimonRC> hi
18:08:27 <wildhalcyon> hey simon
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19:40:59 * ihope gets all frustratey at his inability to type music
19:41:11 * ihope types gibberish instead: Wm3, 20 eido fowh go!
19:53:39 <pgimeno> to type music you need a music typewriter
19:59:24 <SimonRC> gaaaaaah bdlbdldbdlbd
19:59:37 * SimonRC swears at his Ruby program.
20:00:00 <SimonRC> Every time I try to write code, the program gets shorter with more functionality!
20:03:42 <ihope> Heh.
20:05:10 <ihope> Eventually, you'll be left with a three-character AI program that you could sell at millions of dollars per copy.
20:05:36 <ihope> And people will think it's quite a bargain...
20:35:31 <wildhalcyon> You could implement a genetic algorithm to suit every task. All you need is a two-button mouse. Every time the program is right, click the left-mouse button, every time the program is wrong, click the right-mouse button. Programs don't get any easier to use than that.
20:37:47 <ihope> What if it's only sort of right?
20:37:54 <ihope> Is that what the middle button's for?
20:37:57 <wildhalcyon> That's what wheel mice are for
20:39:20 * wildhalcyon right-clicks
20:43:39 <kipple> wildhalcyon: have you seen Petrovic? http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/petrovich.html
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20:48:25 <wildhalcyon> Nope kipple, I'm checking it out now though
20:49:03 <wildhalcyon> That's awesome, except that it stole my first sentence from my new CRAWL design doc...
20:49:09 <kipple> it is very similar to what you proposed. seems it has been left out of the wiki. correcting that now
20:49:24 <wildhalcyon> but the rest of it looks pretty cool. Very similar, you're right.
20:49:27 <wildhalcyon> I LOVE it!
20:49:39 <kipple> "And in case you think this is entirely a joke, imagine a Petrovich layer over another operating system, such as Microsoft Windows (TM). Every time Windows does something you don't like, you could punish it, and it would never do it again..."
20:49:55 <wildhalcyon> lol, yes, that part is great
20:52:10 <wildhalcyon> Im waffling right now :-(
20:54:42 <wildhalcyon> Im trying to decide between where I want to take the glypho language family and making serious design decisions for CRAWL. I fear I'm running around in circles
21:07:52 <wildhalcyon> Im inventing a new design pattern for CRAWL called Sandbox-Oriented Programming
21:09:29 <SimonRC> eh?
21:10:24 <SimonRC> Where is CRAWL?
21:11:47 <wildhalcyon> mired in Works In Progress
21:12:03 <SimonRC> :-(
21:12:09 <wildhalcyon> I need to change the spec though
21:12:19 <wildhalcyon> its gone through a lot of loving changes.
21:12:47 <wildhalcyon> Picture the bastard love-child of befunge & simcity
21:16:37 <wildhalcyon> Its more about the process of programming, rather than the result. That's why its based on the open-ended SOP paradigm.
21:39:54 <SimonRC> :-?!
21:42:26 * SimonRC finds evidence that the French are weird.
21:42:28 <SimonRC> They only seem to have one esolang, which is quite major.
21:42:29 <SimonRC> It is called GOTO++
21:45:19 <wildhalcyon> Somehow, lack of esolangs seems like it should be evidence for normality, not oddity
21:48:58 <SimonRC> heh
21:49:07 <SimonRC> ooh, funky: http://www.stephensykes.com/choon/choon.html
21:49:07 <ihope> Hmm...
21:49:31 <SimonRC> It's the output of a Choon program that divides 18 by 3 to get 6.
21:50:45 <ihope> Three bids are made: A, B, and C. A is the highest, B is in the middle, and C is the lowest. The guy who bid A must pay A+B+C, then gets D+E in return; the guy who bid B must pay B+C, then gets D in return; and the guy who bid C must pay C and get nothing in return.
21:51:46 <wildhalcyon> ok
21:52:01 <ihope> Not that that has anything to do with the topic at hand, or anything...
21:52:30 <wildhalcyon> Is the object to identify which guy is a winner?
21:56:57 <ihope> Each player has to make a bid.
21:57:21 <ihope> Then they're labelled A, B, and C, and prizes are awarded.
22:01:25 <ihope> Wait, D is awarded twice...
22:01:34 <ihope> D > E, then, and A only gets D.
22:16:58 <ihope> "When Chuck Norris exercises, the machine gets stronger." :-)
22:26:43 <ihope> This one's just weird: "Chuck Norris is so fast, he can run around the world and punch himself in the back of the head."
22:28:20 <GregorR> Of course, if you're so fast that, due to relativity and length dilation you're that /long/, you also have so much mass that you throw off Earth's orbit and we go flying into the sun.
22:32:04 <kipple> Chuck Norris isn't bound by the laws of physics. Physics is bound by the laws of Chuck Norris
22:32:28 <ihope> "Chuck Norris sheds his skin twice a year." What is he, eh?
22:41:08 <GregorR> Here's my Chuck Norris joke:
22:41:17 <GregorR> Chuck Norris jokes are so stupid, I'm going to go kill myself.
22:41:24 <GregorR> Not so much a joke, as a statement of fact.
22:44:42 <ihope> And then, GregorR promptly died of a roundhouse kick to the head...
22:44:44 <ihope> :-P
22:47:35 <GregorR> At least I won't have to deal with any more stupid Chuck Norris jokes.
22:48:59 <ihope> True.
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23:08:45 <SimonRC> A student, God, and Chuck Norris are summing the series <1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, ...>
23:09:51 <SimonRC> Given one minute, the student gets up to 127/128, God gets up to exactly 1, and ...
23:09:54 <SimonRC> Chuck Norris gets up to 142.3
23:09:57 <SimonRC> :-S :-)
23:11:21 <ihope> Let the sum of <1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, ...> = 150. The answer's 150. I win.
23:12:27 <fizzie> Mathematica is like unto a God:
23:12:28 <fizzie> In[1]:= Sum[1/(2^i), {i, 1, Infinity}]
23:12:28 <fizzie> Out[1]= 1
23:13:12 <SimonRC> yeah, but God got the answer by summing thw whole lot
23:13:37 <SimonRC> F*ck knows how Chuck Norris got his answer.
23:14:03 <fizzie> Who knows how Mathematica did it; might be magic!
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23:59:17 <kipple> heh. I noticed that my winamp playlist was currently at song #665. So naturally I had to see what the next one was, and it was "Cherub Rock" :)
←2006-06-03 2006-06-04 2006-06-05→ ↑2006 ↑all