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06:16:48 <RodgerTheGreat> good night.
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06:48:19 <Sgeo_> Good-night all
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06:53:32 <Razor-X> Channel talking for the day: <RodgerTheGreat> good night, everyone. <calamari> hi <RodgerTheGreat> hello <pikhq> Hello. <RodgerTheGreat> slow day, eh? <RodgerTheGreat> good night. <Sgeo_> Good-night all
06:54:36 <Razor-X> This place is just no fun without EgoBot.
07:00:59 <GregorR> lol
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12:23:58 <nooga> hei
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13:29:57 <ihope> "As is the case with machine code, any programming language can be regarded as assembly code for a hypothetical machine with machine code instructions corresponding directly to the instructions of the language."
13:30:03 <ihope> What if the language doesn't have instructions?
13:36:50 <nooga> then what it has instead?
13:39:02 <ihope> Maybe it has S, K and I, like Lazy K.
13:40:07 <pikhq> How can that work with languages whihc self-extend?
13:40:33 <pikhq> Surely that doesn't work well if the machine code instructions can have their meaning changed. ;)
14:22:49 <GregorR> I think functional programming is easily enough to disprove that, reflective programming languages is just spitting on the grave.
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14:43:00 <nooga> hehe
14:43:04 <nooga> reflective?
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15:01:55 <jix> well you can always desing a cpu that is capable of executing a language directly if it is possible to execute the language on a normal cpu
15:02:11 <jix> so you can take that language as instructions....
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23:05:25 <CakeProphet> Hmmm.. I'm actually starting to like math a little bit.
23:05:40 <CakeProphet> We did some imaginary numbers in my algebra class... neato concept.
23:07:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I find all math is fun when it's applicable to something.
23:08:07 <CakeProphet> Odd... I started liking math once it stopped being applicable.
23:08:27 <RodgerTheGreat> well, what's your definition of "applicable"?
23:09:20 <CakeProphet> hmmm...
23:09:36 <CakeProphet> Well... er... maybe not applicable... but I starting liking it once we got super-abstract with it,
23:09:48 <RodgerTheGreat> hm.
23:09:56 <CakeProphet> I hate doing computations... but I like the concepts.
23:10:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I like math that allows me to program things I was previously incapable.
23:10:35 <RodgerTheGreat> matrix math + trig = 3d rendering.
23:10:55 <RodgerTheGreat> basic calculus = physics modeling.
23:11:01 <RodgerTheGreat> etc.
23:11:01 <CakeProphet> I've never actually used mathematics in coding...
23:11:18 <CakeProphet> I've never had to generate something via math formula.
23:12:24 <RodgerTheGreat> hunh
23:32:31 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... wish Python had a goto command  :D
23:32:50 <CakeProphet> I have no idea how to restart at another point in the code without having everything set to a function... which I currently don't have.
23:33:24 <pikhq> Goto is bad for you.
23:34:57 <CakeProphet> SO I've heard... not sure why though... given what I want to do with it.
23:35:06 <ivan`> it's always bad
23:35:15 <GregorR-W> It's not always bad, it's just abused.
23:35:49 <pikhq> The only time it can't be abused is when the language lacks functions.
23:35:56 <CakeProphet> Basically... I'd like some sort of goto functionality to simply uh... use it to restart a block of code when all other anti-crash obstacle are eliminated... anything bad with that?
23:36:04 <ivan`> yes
23:36:08 <pikhq> Use. A. Function.
23:36:09 <ivan`> learn to program
23:36:15 <CakeProphet> ...
23:36:32 <CakeProphet> I am learning... seriously why do you have to be so damn mean about it?
23:37:00 <GregorR-W> That particular example would be under the "abuse" category :)
23:37:18 <CakeProphet> Eh. Well okay... how so out of curiosity?
23:37:33 <ivan`> because it can be done with a function
23:37:42 <CakeProphet> >.>
23:37:50 <CakeProphet> If they both work... then where' s the problem?
23:37:53 <GregorR-W> Basically, goto makes code confusing, since a block can have non-well-defined entry points.
23:38:10 <GregorR-W> Whereas with a function, everything is well defined and conforms to a particular definition.
23:38:36 <GregorR-W> Erm, redundant sentence there.
23:38:39 <GregorR-W> Whereas with a function, everything is well defined.
23:38:59 <CakeProphet> With the code I have... I don't think I can define the entire behemoth into a single function and still expect it to run properly... but I need to learn how to program first before I decipher that.  ^_^
23:39:07 <pikhq> Goto makes code especially confusing when you don't have functions, because you can't see *any* entry points.
23:39:51 <GregorR-W> Anyway, I still defend that there are uses for goto.  Just very, very few.
23:40:10 <pikhq> GregorR-W: Your ORK compiler has an excuse to use goto in the output code.
23:40:11 <GregorR-W> And if you're not an experienced programmer, there are no uses for goto for you ;)
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23:40:50 <GregorR-W> pikhq: A 'while (1)' would be better, but is nontrivial to generate.
23:40:57 <GregorR-W> And since it's generated code, it's sort of irrelevant.
23:41:01 <pikhq> Yes.
23:41:08 <pikhq> Thus why it has an excuse.
23:41:13 <CakeProphet> But please... ivan... in the future do -not- expect me, an inexperience programmer, to instantly know everything... yes, you are right, I need to learn to program, that is what I'm doing.
23:41:55 <oerjanj> does Python have exceptions? I forget
23:42:00 <GregorR-W> Hahahah
23:42:05 <CakeProphet> Hmmmm... I've already got one "while 1" ... for some reason encasing it in another while 1 seems distasteful... but it -would- work...
23:42:08 <CakeProphet> Yes.
23:42:22 <GregorR-W> oerjanj: The Python developers, I believe, are literally sexually excited by exceptions.
23:42:31 * CakeProphet laughs.
23:42:31 <ivan`> haha
23:42:47 <oerjanj> then you might be able to use that instead of a goto
23:42:56 <ivan`> exceptions, exceptions, exceptions!!
23:42:58 <CakeProphet> Yeah... it has exceptions... and you can make your own exceptions.. but I don't know how yet...
23:43:01 <GregorR-W> Oooh ... it unwinds my stack ... I'll unwind /your/ stack ;)
23:43:02 <pikhq> try: except: blocks are used in Python more then anything else. ;)
23:43:14 <pikhq> try:
23:43:20 <ivan`> or you can run real checks instead of try blocks
23:43:28 <pikhq>    codeToBeTried
23:43:31 <pikhq> except:
23:43:36 <pikhq>    exception
23:43:46 <pikhq> ivan`: I don't do much Python coding.
23:44:01 <pikhq> I really am not into the whole syntactical indentation thing.
23:44:02 <CakeProphet> Yeah... I know how to use try and except (and finally and else), but I don't know how to -make- exception types.
23:44:08 <oerjanj> but exceptions are good for leaving from a deep level, i think
23:44:29 <oerjanj> tests don't help you with that
23:44:44 <CakeProphet> Python allows you to create a class of exception on your own... so you can do "except ExceptionName:"      not sure if other languages do that or not... I'm clueless.
23:45:07 <GregorR-W> CakeProphet: Pretty much any language that has exceptions lets you make your own.
23:45:09 * pikhq prefers a nice, simple catch block
23:45:21 <oerjanj> ML and Java do, off the top of my mind
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23:45:31 <oerjanj> *do too
23:46:28 <CakeProphet> The only problem I currently have with exceptions is that it stops giving me tradeback readouts when I use tryexcept... but I'm reading up on that.
23:46:36 <CakeProphet> er... traceback
23:46:54 <ivan`> if you specify a specific exception type you can avoid that mostly
23:46:58 <ivan`> or use the traceback module
23:47:34 <GregorR-W> Generally if you're using a try except block, you shouldn't need the traceback since you should be either handling the problem or dying gracefully ;)
23:49:25 <CakeProphet> Heh... there's not a specific problem here... I just don't want my program to crash everytime -I- screw up  :D.. this paticular breed of prog allows me to make changes while it's running, so I like to be able to use traceback while its running so I can see what's wron.
23:50:26 <ivan`> try/except blocks are only to make code cleaner when running regular checks would be time consuming or annoying to code
23:50:30 <ivan`> don't wrap too much in it
23:50:59 <CakeProphet> >.>
23:51:15 <CakeProphet> So... would... wrapping the whole prog in a try except be.. uh... too...
23:51:17 <CakeProphet> :D
23:51:23 * CakeProphet snickers.
23:51:36 <oerjanj> i remember a recent discussion on lambda-the-ultimate.org about resumable exceptions, they are better for such on-the-fly corrections
23:51:46 <ivan`> CakeProphet, a function can return if something goes bad
23:51:54 <ivan`> or raise an exception
23:52:00 <ivan`> so you don't have to do that
23:52:48 * CakeProphet nods, "Bassically I'm trying to make corrections as the program is running, so I don't have to close out and open up on and off forever."
23:53:20 * oerjanj doesn't know if Python exceptions are resumable
23:54:01 <ivan`> try/except/finally
23:54:26 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Split it up in a bunch of functions.
23:55:17 <CakeProphet> I've currently got it set up so I can alter the parser of the program while it's running... I have the parser in a separate module of functions.
23:55:29 <CakeProphet> Do errors in functions crash the program?
23:56:02 <pikhq> Depends upon the error, and how you handle it.
23:56:09 <CakeProphet> But... if something in the parser makes an error, it closes the program... so I'm trying to get it to -not- close the program when that happens, and just resume normal function.
23:56:29 <CakeProphet> So I can correct, and try again mid-runtime
23:56:50 <CakeProphet> Hmmm.. I think I got it though.. so no worries.
23:57:08 <oerjanj> sounds just like some of the issues discussed in that LTU thread
23:58:16 <oerjanj> you would want an error to put you into a debugger _without_ unwinding the stack
23:59:30 <oerjanj> and then correct the program, and resume from the point of the error or perhaps somewhere further up the stack