00:04:07 <RodgerTheGreat> let me tell you something, cake: high-school is worthwhile.
00:04:08 * pikhq beats CakeProphet with his calculus textbook
00:04:44 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: He's *15*. . . That implies that he's a sophmore in HS. . .
00:04:50 <RodgerTheGreat> high school is worthwhile, ESPECIALLY if you wait to be an upperclassman.
00:05:13 <pikhq> Again: /me beats CakeProphet with his calculus textbook
00:05:16 <CakeProphet> High school is currently getting in the way of my education.
00:05:22 <RodgerTheGreat> and if you'd wait for me to get to my points before interjecting, you wouldn't be getting confused.
00:05:27 <pikhq> (yes, I'm a junior in AP Calc. Got a problem with that?)
00:05:58 <GregorR-W> pikhq: No, but I have a problem with you talking about it as if anybody is impressed.
00:06:52 <pikhq> GregorR-W: Sorry. Too damned used to people going "Oh, you're in calc? HOLY CRAP!!!". I assume that just says more about my school than anything else, though. . .
00:09:39 <RodgerTheGreat> anyway, the point I was trying to get to is that high-school isn't about learning things, really- it's about getting high enough grades to get into the college you want and developing rudimentary social skills so that your life in the real world won't suck ass.
00:10:48 <wooby> as popular languages are
00:10:53 <wooby> esolangs is where its at :)
00:14:40 <CakeProphet> I consider learning more important than college.
00:15:10 <wooby> yeah, college is chock full of cool opportunities though
00:15:13 <lament> high school is _mostly_ about social skills
00:15:21 <lament> and socials skills are more important than learning
00:15:27 <RodgerTheGreat> well, learning *is* important. My point is that learning is not what high school is about.
00:15:34 <lament> CakeProphet: to you, too
00:15:43 <lament> CakeProphet: as you will realize trying to find a girlfriend :)
00:15:45 <wooby> well at some point you need to learn to deal/cooperate with other humans, which is itself learning
00:15:54 <pikhq> And here I was, thinking that high school was about creating a sufficently trained worker for the industrial economy of the early 20th century. . .
00:15:58 <CakeProphet> I could care less about social skills... or girlsfriends for that matter.
00:16:04 <lament> CakeProphet: that will change.
00:16:28 <lament> CakeProphet: i don't care, it will change
00:16:39 <pikhq> I'm a virgin, but not by choice. ;)
00:16:40 <RodgerTheGreat> wether you want to even attempt getting a girlfriend or just MAKING FRIENDS, you will need social skills.
00:16:42 <CakeProphet> That statement... is so loaded it's not even funny.
00:16:50 <GregorR-W> At the age of 15, unless you cut off your testicles, you're not asexual.
00:16:56 <lament> CakeProphet: it's just how life works
00:17:07 * pikhq looks at the bloody knife in CakeProphet's hand
00:17:21 <lament> CakeProphet: no, it isn't
00:17:40 <pikhq> I think ~/porn says a whole lot about why it's not by choice. . .
00:17:58 <CakeProphet> I seriously have -no- desire for anything sexually related... maybe it's a biological defect, maybe I just don't care.
00:18:17 <lament> You also have no desire to have friends?
00:18:17 <RodgerTheGreat> sex doesn't have to be your primary motivator. It's pretty much always there, but it's not necessarily why you want to get in a relationship.
00:18:44 <CakeProphet> Friends are cool... but I'm not going to -try- and go out of the way to make friends... friendship should occur naturally.
00:18:51 <pikhq> If you don't care yet, I believe you will within the next few months.
00:19:10 <RodgerTheGreat> friendship doesn't just occur. You have to initiate something.
00:19:28 <lament> CakeProphet: trust me, you will change your mind. I'm speaking from experience regarding myself, my friends, and everyone else i know.
00:19:35 <GregorR-W> OK, this is a ridiculous conversation and my work day is close enough to over :P
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00:20:02 <lament> CakeProphet: you're like somebody claiming "i'm not mortal, only you guys are"
00:20:05 <CakeProphet> I'm just mildly irritated that you guys can't accept I'm -asexual-
00:20:25 <lament> i'm just mildly irritated you guys can't accept i'm immortal!
00:20:27 <CakeProphet> Asexual people -do- exist... I swear it's not a myth...
00:20:29 <RodgerTheGreat> once again, I'm saying- EVEN IF YOU DON'T WANT SEX, YOU NEED SOCIAL SKILLS.
00:20:34 <pikhq> I refuse to accept that you're ahuman. . .
00:21:15 <CakeProphet> Hate to get pissed about the whole mess... but all the comments are starting to piss me off.
00:21:30 <pikhq> Realise that sexual attraction is the major driving force in, oh. . . Life? The universe? Everything?
00:22:05 <lament> i was just using girlfriends as an example, really
00:22:15 <anonfunc> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexual
00:22:39 <lament> social skills are more important than learning, because people are more important than whatever you're gonna use your learning for.
00:22:44 <RodgerTheGreat> you're confusing "social skills" with "sexual drives". Define social skills, in your way of thinking, or we're never going to get anything across.
00:23:05 <CakeProphet> Sex is mind-boggling distrubing actually... I don't understand how that could be even remotely pleasurable.
00:23:09 * pikhq drops that thread of conversation. . .
00:23:18 <lament> forget about the whole sex thing
00:23:33 <wooby> i dunno, i think that in general its cool to talk to other people especially in person
00:23:38 <lament> the original point was that homeschooling is bad because you don't get to learn/improve social skills
00:23:40 <wooby> if one feels differently, one is entitled to
00:23:53 <lament> and "social skills are more important than learning, because people are more important than whatever you're gonna use your learning for."
00:24:21 <pikhq> CakeProphet: I assure you, for those of us who care, it ends up being immensely pleasurable (yay, biology!). And with that, can we just shut up about it, because it's a bit of a moot point?
00:24:25 <CakeProphet> Pretty much all homeschoolers I know have no problems with social skills.
00:25:15 <CakeProphet> I can talk to people... and they can talk back... I can convey the emotions I'm feeling... and I don't care enough to get nervous... there... that's social skills.
00:25:40 <lament> not sure if 'don't care enough to get nervous' qualifies :)
00:25:46 <CakeProphet> Anything else is just a fake image... which isn't the kind of social skills I want.
00:26:14 <RodgerTheGreat> you just proved you have a thalamus, CakeProphet. congrats on that.
00:26:55 <lament> CakeProphet: i agree, sex is pretty disgusting :)
00:27:36 <CakeProphet> What other social skills would I need? And what makes you think homeschooling is going to instantly zap me of all my existing social interactions?
00:28:41 <lament> well, for one, you could learn to get less irritated when people insult your sexual preferences :)
00:28:53 <CakeProphet> Sure... I scare people with my social presence... but who cares how freaky I am? Obviously the last 11-or-so years of school hasn't made me a social bee.
00:29:42 <lament> that doesn't sound like good social skills to me :)
00:29:47 <CakeProphet> You were claiming it didn't exist... that's quite different... it's like saying "No you're clearly wrong about yourself"
00:30:37 <CakeProphet> "No... it's engraved into your skull to like men" To give you heterosexuals a comparison.
00:31:10 <pikhq> . . . No, it's engraved into your brainstem to like sex. . .
00:31:26 <pikhq> I'm going to assume that you've been at war with it for a bit. :p
00:31:31 <lament> CakeProphet: maybe you should consider stopping scaring people.
00:31:44 <CakeProphet> I don't do it intentionally... it's just simply how I am..
00:32:10 <CakeProphet> I'm a freaky person to other people... I'm pretty sure... perfectly normal to myself... so I have the simple conclusion of "fuck other people"... problem solved.
00:32:56 <CakeProphet> pikhq, Nope.. no raging conflicts at all.. I just really don't care.
00:32:58 <RodgerTheGreat> not going to work. wether you like people or not, you will deal with and interact with them for your entire life.
00:33:19 <CakeProphet> I never said I didn't like talking to people...
00:33:25 <lament> CakeProphet: "fuck other people" is not a sustainable policy
00:33:42 <pikhq> Unless you mean it literally. :
00:33:48 <CakeProphet> I'm fine with social interaction... I just don't worry about pretending to be someone that I'm not... that'll just screw me over later.
00:33:55 <RodgerTheGreat> and extremely ironic, considering your "asexual" nature [rimshot]
00:34:09 <lament> oh, it's not about pretending to be someone you're not :)
00:34:16 <lament> it's about changing yourself to be someone you're not
00:34:41 <lament> don't worry, it happens naturally.
00:34:46 <lament> it's called "growing up" :D
00:35:43 <RodgerTheGreat> and overcome your flaws, while making use of your talents.
00:36:00 <CakeProphet> I'm already doing that... no need to teach me about it.
00:36:47 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, fantastic. THIS explains why we're unable to get through to him. Move along people, nothing to see but a nutjob.
00:37:05 <pikhq> That would also explain his lack of logical ability.
00:37:27 * pikhq laughs hysterically. . .
00:37:35 <pikhq> Orgasm is one of the main techniques. :p
00:38:24 * lament orgasms all over the channel
00:38:30 <CakeProphet> Sorry to get so agitated about this... I really hate overacting... I was just feeling attacked.
00:39:49 <lament> CakeProphet: this is one of them "if youth knew, if old age could" things
00:40:16 <lament> CakeProphet: we're just trying to help you :)
00:41:29 <CakeProphet> So... this really got blown out of proportion... it's not really that devestating to my personal well-being that I'm going to be homeschooled.
00:42:01 <lament> but if you "scare people" then something is wrong.
00:42:42 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_magic A hint: normally, saying "I am a practicing wizard/witch/magician" scares the shit out of people. . .
00:43:31 <pikhq> And. . . You don't question that?!?
00:43:57 <RodgerTheGreat> so, explain to me this: if magic works, why is it that a 15 year old has all the answers, while actual scientists and professionals give it no credence whatsoever?
00:44:22 * pikhq passes CakeProphet "HOWTO: Install a brain".
00:44:40 <pikhq> Haven't used it much myself (I'm Christain), but I think you could use it. :p
00:45:03 <CakeProphet> Just so you know... no I do not think I can conjure fireballs out of midair and hurl them at people.
00:45:43 <lament> then what's the point? :(
00:45:58 <RodgerTheGreat> clearly. if you were that *obviously* crazy, you'd already be in the looney bin.
00:46:06 <CakeProphet> Belief shapes a persons reality... to Christians, God exists... etc. that is what I believe.
00:46:31 <lament> what does a belief in magic gives you that my non-belief in magic doesn't give me?
00:46:45 <CakeProphet> I use Chaos magic more as a personal principle... not as a method to make weird stuff happen... it's not a tool, it's a philosophy.
00:47:11 <lament> CakeProphet: I use my dick like that.
00:47:18 <lament> it's not a tool; it's a philosophy.
00:47:57 * lament considers banning everybody in the channel including himself
00:48:22 * CakeProphet isn't going to discuss this one... too many different opinions to make any outcome worthwhile.
00:48:56 <CakeProphet> Yeah... I guess it is kind of existential... I'd rather be existential than believing in ab Absolute Truth(tm).
00:49:41 <RodgerTheGreat> there is no absolute truth but reason. logic. frameworks upon which mankind's greatest achievements have been built.
00:50:01 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: god will _so_ smack you for taht.
00:50:25 * CakeProphet obviously disses science just because he follows something called "chaos magic"
00:50:32 <lament> and surely the mankind's greatest achievements are works of art?
00:50:36 <lament> which are not at all logical?
00:50:37 <CakeProphet> no... I agree with science... there's nothing to argue about there.
00:50:42 * RodgerTheGreat waits for lament's imaginary friend "god" to try something.
00:50:58 * pikhq notes the biblical verse stating that God ordered us to rule over and study the earth. . . Thereby ordering mankind into science. . . And thereby disproving his own existence. . . ;p
00:51:06 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: you a militant atheist?
00:52:05 <lament> "there is no absolute truth but reason. " - clearly you haven't smoked pot :)
00:52:06 * CakeProphet has been an atheist, Christian, New Ager, Bhuddist, Agnostic, Emo, Goth, and countless other isms.
00:52:19 <CakeProphet> It's one of the advantages of shifting paradigms.
00:52:35 <lament> CakeProphet: just become a taoist and get over it
00:52:36 <CakeProphet> I at least have a chunk of everyone's opinion at the most... makes it easier to relate to people and sympathize with them.
00:53:07 <RodgerTheGreat> nothing could please me more than an end to the chaos and waste that is religion. I have more of a problem with some religions than others, but they all serve nothing but our own desire for a simple answer to everything.
00:53:25 <CakeProphet> Spirituality is way more than that... I must say.
00:53:37 <CakeProphet> Although many people use religion as an answer... others don't.
00:54:00 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: surely "there's no god" is a much simpler answer than any other, no?
00:54:05 <CakeProphet> Depends on the person.... just like pretty much everything else.
00:54:10 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: non-existance of stuff seems inherently more simple than existence...
00:54:24 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: so YOU are the one with a simple answer...
00:55:46 <RodgerTheGreat> lament- your logic is flawed, because you aren't looking any further than the question of god. the implications behind the non-existence of god, using your remaining chain of statements, prove that I am most likely right. try again.
00:56:30 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: depends on the nature of the god
00:56:48 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: for example, Judaism certainly does not give any simple answers to anything
00:56:56 <lament> if anything it makes things more complicated
00:57:08 <RodgerTheGreat> the ultimate problem with proving the non-existence of god is precisely that- those with beliefs will continue to re-define what god is until the argument is meaningless.
00:57:26 <CakeProphet> Okay... here's a solution before we all inevitably get into a religion discussion... let's all just except that people and different, think differently, and believe different things, and that it's okay and that we have no obligation to change them or "convert" them.... okay? THat'll save you all a few hours.
00:57:45 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: how does judaism give "simple answers"?
00:58:42 <CakeProphet> <broad generalization>Atheists can be just as guilty of trying to "convert" people as Christians. </broad generalization>
00:58:48 <RodgerTheGreat> judaism gives one answer: to wait. It's no wonder that when one of their own tried to reform the religion, they shattered in half.
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00:59:22 <GregorR-W> Thou shalt not discuss religion on #esoteric
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00:59:51 <CakeProphet> We're only supposed to rant about coding paradigms.
01:00:06 <CakeProphet> Arguably just as bad as religion is when it comes to discussion.
01:00:55 <lament> the messiah will likely come after any individual believer dies
01:01:38 * CakeProphet invents his religious practices every day.
01:01:39 <lament> in any case the belief in the messiah is not really a major part of judaism
01:01:50 <lament> CakeProphet: sounds like you simply have too much free time.
01:02:25 <RodgerTheGreat> religions are themselves the memetic equivalent of organisms.
01:02:38 <CakeProphet> It's much more fun than following the same old boring beliefs... poof, one day there's a spiritual entity in me that I'll call the mind buffalo... the next it is customary to wear one sock and do everything with the wrong hand... it's both fun and rewarding :P
01:03:08 <RodgerTheGreat> probably the closest biological analogy would be a virus.
01:03:41 <lament> CakeProphet: basically, you invent stuff for no reason. Consider writing symphonies instead.
01:03:58 <CakeProphet> Oh no... I definetely believe whatever I invent.
01:04:11 <RodgerTheGreat> just as computer viruses spread via networks and email, religions spread through flyers, books, television shows and human speech.
01:04:33 <lament> CakeProphet: you could just as well write symphonies instead! it's fun!
01:05:26 -!- lament has set topic: #religion, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - for brainfuck-specific discussion, go to ##brainfuck - competition: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/2006_Esolang_Contest.
01:05:29 <CakeProphet> I'll just detour that.. which would take effort... by believing that there is a symphony God that writes all symphonies.
01:06:03 <lament> yeah... i think "too much free time" _is_ your main problem.
01:06:12 * RodgerTheGreat decides to write a spec for "theos", a religiously structured programming language, to illustrate his theories.
01:06:30 <CakeProphet> What? It's better to be in a little cage without freedom?
01:07:15 <CakeProphet> Quotes are cool... they give people the illusion that other people agree with them.
01:07:24 <RodgerTheGreat> THOU SHALL LET A BE ONE. THOU SHALL FORM A LOOP. THOU SHALL PRINT A. THOU SHALL INCREMENT A. THOU SHALL REPEAT THE LOOP.
01:08:05 <anonfunc> RodgerTheGreat: and random failures, unless there is a AND GOD SAW THE LOOP AND IT WAS GOOD
01:08:23 <CakeProphet> That could be a form of exception checking.
01:09:08 <pgimeno> anonfunc, looking at God's criterium for goodness I don't think the random failures would be avoided
01:09:09 <anonfunc> RodgerTheGreat: or "god saw the loop, and it was good, and blessed it for <limit> generations"
01:09:52 <anonfunc> pgimeno: Depends on the religious framework one operates in, I suppose.
01:10:23 <pgimeno> yeah, just my daily bit of irony
01:10:26 <RodgerTheGreat> creation can define inheritance. Firmament -> Earth/Clay -> Man, Bees, Porcupines, etc.
01:10:32 <CakeProphet> AND GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS could be defining a new class.
01:10:48 <anonfunc> output to a terminal could be in terms of GOD'S PROPHET SPOKE TO THE PEOPLE AND SAID:
01:11:22 <RodgerTheGreat> but you have to make and name a prophet first (bufferedwriter) and people (output device)
01:11:24 <anonfunc> it's suddenly become very clear that i've spent too much time in the old testament.
01:11:26 <CakeProphet> AND FROM THE DUST OF THE EARTH GOD CREATED MAN man inherits dust... which inherits earth
01:11:51 <lament> CakeProphet: no, AND THE MEEK SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH
01:12:25 <RodgerTheGreat> no- that means that when a loop ceases to be blessed, meek is passed a value from earth.
01:12:30 <anonfunc> and a built in list type: GET THEE BEHIND ME, <value>
01:13:25 <RodgerTheGreat> I was thinking that you could damn a function to prevent it from running, and then purify it if you need it later.
01:13:33 <anonfunc> maybe a built in constant PI that is equal to three.
01:13:45 <anonfunc> RodgerTheGreat: in an Aspect oriented way?
01:14:03 <anonfunc> the join points are set out as rituals
01:14:14 <anonfunc> and the weave whatnots are commandments.
01:15:18 <RodgerTheGreat> and variables are represented by objects and classes that god must create.
01:15:40 <RodgerTheGreat> commandments are globals and/or some types of conditionals.
01:15:57 <anonfunc> test framework or assertions, maybe.
01:16:38 <anonfunc> well, theres some good verbage for flow control in bits of Romans, maybe chapter six.
01:16:56 <anonfunc> FOR WE ARE DEAD TO <thread> BY THE POWER OF GOD
01:17:46 <anonfunc> I could never remember the fourth car.
01:18:48 <RodgerTheGreat> different "locations" for objects could alter how they function: Earth, eden, heaven, hell, limbo- all of which can be defined with different names.
01:19:18 <anonfunc> well, there are at least several hundred biblical names for god as well
01:19:22 <CakeProphet> AND THE LORD SAID UNTO THE WOMAN, "WHAT IS THIS THAT THOU HAST DONE?" <-- exception handling?
01:19:29 <RodgerTheGreat> and your commandments set up what happens on earth and when objects are moved.
01:20:24 <pikhq> And "earth.fuckup();" was unfortunately executed. :p
01:20:51 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... so when do we drive <object> from the harden?
01:20:52 <ihope> Isn't it "thou shalt"?
01:21:14 <RodgerTheGreat> limbo is where people are judged, so that should involve conditionals...
01:21:22 <ihope> And why not either have this esolang be in Hebrew and Greek or use a modern translation?
01:21:43 <anonfunc> AND GOD SAW THAT THE EARTH HAD FUCKEDUP, AND HIS PROPHET SAID TO THE STACK: "THOU SHALT NOT BE EMPTY, BUT UNTO YOU THE FULLNESS OF THE EARTH BE GIVEN"
01:21:48 <ihope> "And the Lord said to the woman, 'what is this that you have done?'"
01:22:11 <ihope> anonfunc: if EARTH is FUCKEDUP, then push EARTH onto the stack?
01:22:17 <CakeProphet> not in my Bible anyways... (don't ask me why I have a bible)
01:22:46 <anonfunc> ihope: possible. maybe the address of the earth pointer? :-P
01:22:55 <RodgerTheGreat> well, gotta go for now- I'll return with a more formalized concept of this tomorrow.
01:23:08 -!- RodgerTheGreat has left (?).
01:23:14 <ihope> The address of a pointer? Let's not get into two-star programming :-P
01:23:26 <CakeProphet> And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done?" and the woman said, "The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
01:24:21 <anonfunc> ihope: Gah. I hate saying value of the pointer because I think of what it points to.
01:24:25 <pikhq> AND GOD CREATED A STAR OVER $name_of_pointed_variable, AND LO: IT WAS GOOD.
01:25:05 <pikhq> AND GOD CREATED A STAR OVER $name_of_pointed_variable, AND LO: IT WAS $name_of_pointer.
01:25:08 <ihope> CakeProphet: get a new Bible :-P
01:25:15 <pikhq> To end the program:
01:25:32 <ihope> "The snake tricked me, and I ate."
01:25:43 <pikhq> AND THERE WAS THE FULL GLORY OF GOD'S SON, TAKING HIS BELIEVERS UP WITH HIM.
01:25:51 <CakeProphet> My parents are insane-Georgia-born-again-country-baptists... they consider the new bibles "not the real thing"
01:26:32 <pikhq> It sounds way more Early Modern Englishy.
01:26:58 <CakeProphet> Yeah... Kings James Version... written by Early Modern English folk.
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01:27:16 <pikhq> It was considered archaic when it was written.
01:27:37 <Razor-X> Come on lament, I see a great ``your mom'' joke right there.
01:27:57 <pikhq> Clearly haven't seen the context.
01:28:55 <CakeProphet> I think mine's a near-exact Kings James Version... no idea though.. I don't look at it too much.
01:28:56 <ihope> This version of that verse is more Biblical than your version of that verse: וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים לָאִשָּׁה, מַה-זֹּאת עָשִׂית; וַתֹּאמֶר, הָאִשָּׁה, הַנָּחָשׁ הִשִּׁיאַנִי, וָאֹכֵל.
01:29:27 <Razor-X> The King James Bible is very wrong in some spots, it seems.
01:29:53 <CakeProphet> that's not written in American... God intended all good Christian Bibles to be written in stuff that makes sense!. </redneck voice>
01:29:59 <pikhq> The KJV used a lot of archaic language for the time it was written. Weird, huh?
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01:30:36 <Razor-X> I was reading Zamenhoff's translation of Genesis, and it used an odd word firmaĝo.
01:30:50 <ihope> An English translation?
01:30:55 <Razor-X> I mean, I knew *what* it meant, but couldn't think of an English alternative.
01:31:02 <ihope> "And they came upon the firmaĝo..."
01:31:06 <pikhq> CakeProphet: No, I mean *when it was written*, it used archaic language.
01:31:13 <Razor-X> I looked in the King James version and they translated it as Firmament, which seemed .... not correct enough.
01:31:38 <Razor-X> firmaĝo represents something ``substance-like''.
01:32:03 <Razor-X> Something that actually has no physical substance but has a non-concrete quality of ``substance''.
01:32:09 <pikhq> Razor-X: Could you use the pure ASCII form? I lack Unicode terminals.
01:32:32 <pikhq> ihope: Ne. Esperanto.
01:33:01 <Razor-X> Mi pensas ke li komprenas la signifiko de tiu nomo pikhq :P
01:33:02 <pikhq> Zamenhoff is the guy *responsible* for Esperanto. . . -_-
01:33:09 <Razor-X> *la signifikon de tiun nomon
01:33:33 * CakeProphet even has the part that begins "to the most high and mighty prince James, by the Grace of God, King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, Defender of Faith, The Translators of the Bible wish Grace, Mercy, and Peace through Jesus Christ our Lord" Clearly King Jame's men do not lie... they wish the grace of God.
01:34:01 <pikhq> Mochiron wa eigo de nan da ka?
01:34:23 <Razor-X> (I hate romaji, my romaji sucks, sorry.)
01:34:31 <Razor-X> I can't think of an equivalent word.
01:34:46 <pikhq> If I could get these stupid keyboards to do kana & kanji, I'd use it.
01:35:05 <pikhq> Haven't been able to figure out how to do it on Gentoo.
01:35:19 <Razor-X> Look. I can set it up on *Slackware* :D .
01:35:40 <pikhq> Severe Laziness Syndrome causes a hell of a lot of my issues. ;)
01:36:14 <Razor-X> Today I'm taking a break from Japanese, because I've amassed about 1300+ words in the last 9 days.
01:36:51 <Razor-X> I do somewhere from 60-100 words per day.
01:37:46 <pikhq> That's a bit difficult to do when one is learning Japanese at school. . .
01:39:04 <Razor-X> I've been learning a lot of Keigo as of late, since I've been working out of a novel.
01:40:15 <Razor-X> But seriously, Zamenhoff's Torah translation uses pretty basic Esperanto.
01:40:31 <Razor-X> The only odd thing is it uses a lot of weird nonstandard roots (like firmagxo).
01:41:09 <pikhq> Well, I'd hope his early stuff used basic Esperanto. . .
01:41:28 <pikhq> Considering that the language was defined in itself. . . :p
01:41:41 <Razor-X> Well, he needn't have restricted himself to *such* basic Esperanto.
01:41:55 <Razor-X> He had already used more poetic Esperanto for his novel translations.
01:45:03 <pikhq> Also, I don't think the Torah itself used very complex language; he might have been just fairly literal.
01:45:35 <Razor-X> That's what my hunch is too.
01:45:47 <Razor-X> I had heard that the original Hebrew was meant for the ``everyman'' of the time.
01:49:36 <Razor-X> And while language preserves our works forever, the secret enemy unsheathes his countenance: Linguistic Drift!
01:50:18 <Razor-X> A lot of the early novel translations sound weird in Esperanto too, which is pathetic :P
01:50:42 <pikhq> In this case, though, it's more that
01:50:57 <Razor-X> Yeah. It becomes semi-unreadable.
01:51:03 <Razor-X> Heck, people take classes to read Shakespeare.
01:51:13 <pikhq> Why do j and k have to be so close?
01:51:28 * pikhq was trying to do C-k, and did C-j. . .
01:51:37 <Razor-X> You're learning Dvorak then?
01:51:55 <pikhq> And I'm not used to this laptop's keyboard.
01:52:26 <Razor-X> GregorR: Like I said, think of the poor poor QWERTY users.
01:52:51 <pikhq> Also, it doesn't help that I'm watching Invader Zim on my big CRT instead of looking at my laptop's LCD.
01:53:06 * pikhq is currently just using his laptop as an SSH terminal. . .
01:53:08 <Razor-X> Never liked that show much :P
01:53:29 <pikhq> I'm a rare non-goth addict. . .
01:53:55 <pikhq> It seems a hell of a lot of goths at my school like the show.
01:54:14 <Razor-X> The show put too much emphasis on ``gross'' stuff.
01:54:53 <pikhq> I really, really like it, but I have no idea why. . .
01:55:13 <Razor-X> Maybe kinda like how I really, really, really like Marimite but have no idea why.
01:55:30 <Razor-X> So much to the point where I've developed dossiers of two of the characters and all the trite information assosciated with them.
02:02:36 <Razor-X> By the way, The Scheme Programming Language is a great book to learn Scheme if you have prior programming experience.
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02:19:32 <Razor-X> I wonder how Lisp is for a beginner, since my biggest problem with it in the beginning was that Lisp is *too* smart.
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02:29:05 <pikhq> Do a CTCP version.
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02:57:25 <GregorR> Razor-X: Why was that statement directed at me?
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02:57:41 <Razor-X> GregorR: It was about the abbrevations.
02:58:06 <GregorR> Not that I see from the context :p
02:58:59 <GregorR> I added info on derivation to the spec *whoot*
02:59:30 <Razor-X> There's forking going on already?!
03:00:02 <Razor-X> Nothing like forking to water down an otherwise good project <(^_^)< ^(^_^)^ >(^_^)>
03:00:36 <GregorR> Derivation as in object orientation ...
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05:33:02 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... eventually... creationists will boycott Pokemon for teaching children evolutution.
06:31:22 <GregorR> plof2js gains more features >: )
06:43:50 <GregorR> !cat thematrixeatsyou didn't remember the command.
06:43:54 <EgoBot> thematrixeatsyou didn't remember the command.
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06:49:11 <GregorR> Yay, it has call-with-scope capabilities ^^
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06:59:23 <GregorR-L> Try http://pastebin.ca/149864 on http://www.codu.org/plof/2js/
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07:27:20 <Razor-X> !cat I really don't like strippers much.
07:27:24 <EgoBot> I really don't like strippers much.
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08:01:00 <Razor-X> Agh. call/cc is killing me.
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08:11:32 <GregorR-L> I totally don't know what call/cc is...
08:12:28 <Razor-X> As in you tried learning it?
08:15:07 <GregorR-L> I know it has vague similarities to exceptions of imperative fame.
08:17:14 <Razor-X> Each Lisp seems to have its mind-bender, I guess.
08:24:16 <GregorR-L> Also, Plof is a hybrid language :P
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19:11:12 -!- ihope has set topic: ##quantum, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - for brainfuck-specific discussion, go to ##brainfuck - competition: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/2006_Esolang_Contest.
19:17:01 <ihope> How about an OISC with "reverse subtract and reverse jump if borrow" as its only instruction?
19:37:38 <CakeProphet> hmmm.. does Python have full Unicode access?
19:38:02 <CakeProphet> I inputted text with a unicode character and got...
19:38:04 <CakeProphet> UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\u03c2' in position 2814: ordinal not in range(128)
19:39:11 <fizzie> "if you leave off the encoding argument, the ASCII encoding is used for the conversion, so characters greater than 127 will be treated as errors"
19:39:16 <fizzie> http://www.amk.ca/python/howto/unicode
19:39:25 <fizzie> Note that I'm very much not a Pythonist.
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20:13:08 <GregorR> That wasn't a less-than-three.
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20:44:29 <CakeProphet> So.. I think I'm actually going to learn brainfuck.... now
20:45:37 <CakeProphet> I have no idea how you would do conditionals or anything... it looks pretty for difficult...
20:46:43 <oerjanj> a conditional would simply be a loop that always executes at most once...
20:48:02 <CakeProphet> How do you get it to check if a value is true or false for a conditional?
20:48:09 <oerjanj> the only way to test in BF is with a [] loop.
20:48:23 <oerjanj> you must manage to store that value in a cell
20:49:11 <oerjanj> if you have a value in the current cell, [] loops check if it is zero.
20:50:13 <oerjanj> i should perhaps mention that i have never written a BF program myself
20:50:34 <oerjanj> so these are just thoughts
20:51:13 <oerjanj> and a [-] loop sets the current cell to zero
20:51:57 <oerjanj> so a [...[-]] loop is like an if-then
20:52:25 <fizzie> I haven't written too much brainf*ck either, but that's exactly the way I've done conditionals.
20:53:25 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
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20:53:27 <EgoBot> 2 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
20:54:25 <oerjanj> so the second problem is how to compute a conditional value in order to test it
20:55:05 <CakeProphet> It loops something once... sets it to zero.. and continues... were's the condition there?
20:55:47 <oerjanj> ok, so it's more like the then part. the if part is any program that stores the condition in the current cell
20:56:38 <CakeProphet> I tend to understand crap better if I do it myself.
20:57:02 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
20:57:03 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
20:57:56 <EgoBot> 56 ++++++++++++[>>+++>++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>>----.>.>+.... [189]
20:58:28 <EgoBot> 66 ++++++++++++[>+++>++++++>+++++++++><<<<-]>----.>.>+....<---------. [91]
20:59:37 <CakeProphet> Does that print that text... and then reset the cell to zero?
21:00:21 <oerjanj> !bf ++++++++++++[>>+++>++++++>+++++++++<<<<-]>>----.>.>+....
21:00:45 <GregorR> CakeProphet: I'd run it through a debuggable interpreter and use # to see how it ends. I don't think it's always the same.
21:01:02 <oerjanj> it uses more than one cell too
21:01:32 <CakeProphet> I'm trying to figure out how to do if input == "a": print Hmmmm
21:01:41 <oerjanj> but since it ends with .... it is pretty obvious that it doesn't reset after the m's
21:01:58 <GregorR> Look on the esolangs Brainfuck page, there's a link to a bunch o' algorithms
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21:07:30 <EgoBot> 34 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>>><<<<-]>+. [43]
21:07:40 <EgoBot> 34 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>>><<<<-]>+. [26]
21:07:48 <GregorR-L> If you want real efficiency, I'd download TextGen.java.
21:07:53 <GregorR-L> It'll run indefinitely in reality.
21:09:37 <GregorR-L> I don't think EgoBot has -debug on.
21:11:09 <oerjanj> !bf >+[,>+<----------[>-<]>]<[++++++++++.<]
21:11:34 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
21:11:36 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
21:11:53 <GregorR-L> Probably want a newline there too.
21:12:54 <GregorR-L> CakeProphet: Look on the "Brainfuck Constants" page on the wiki for 95.
21:13:27 <pikhq> You think it was doing anything?
21:14:03 <GregorR> OK, reloading EgoBot with debug support on for BF
21:14:06 -!- EgoBot has quit ("Reloading...").
21:14:36 <GregorR> Connecting so slooooooooooow
21:14:37 -!- EgoBot has joined.
21:14:47 <EgoBot> 0:*0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
21:14:51 <ihope> [blah[-]] will execute blah if the current cell is non-zero, and will always leave that cell at zero.
21:14:59 * pikhq is starting to get the feeling that his Java compiler is broken. . .
21:15:03 <oerjanj> !bf >+[,>+<----------[>-<]>]<<[++++++++++.<]++++++++++.
21:15:13 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Yeah, it's written in Java.
21:15:23 <pikhq> GregorR: Could you hand me a compiled bytecode of textgen.java?
21:15:31 <pikhq> GCJ seems to be t3h bork, but not GIJ.
21:15:32 <ihope> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
21:15:42 <ihope> Very efficient 65.
21:15:54 <CakeProphet> Teehee... would it be bastardizing brainfuck if it could handle functions?
21:16:07 <pikhq> CakeProphet: It already can do functions.
21:16:42 <ihope> Just turn all your recursion into while loops, then it's only a bit of hackery to get that C into BF.
21:16:56 <GregorR-L> http://gregorr.homelinux.org/textgen.tar.gz < .class
21:17:03 <ihope> Now, who's gonna write HS2UL?
21:17:10 <ihope> Haskell to Unlambda...
21:18:09 <CakeProphet> I'm having trouble understanding the bf algorithms
21:18:15 <pikhq> You sure it's on :80, and not :8080?
21:18:34 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Y'know what I'm not sure about - that I actually forwarded that port :P
21:18:38 <oerjanj> i am not sure those are appropriate since unlambda has no mutable data structures and is eager, so you cannot simulate call-on-need
21:18:39 <ihope> CakeProphet: temporary storage. Think of them as local variables.
21:18:40 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Temporarily used memory cells, that's all. . .
21:18:56 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I can't connect to it, so you haven't forwarded said port.
21:19:00 <CakeProphet> So you just replace temp0 with some random cell?
21:19:13 <oerjanj> but the thunk would be evaluated every time
21:19:14 <pikhq> With some cell that you're not using for anything else.
21:19:17 <ihope> CakeProphet: well, you'll probably have to zero it first. Depends on the algorithm.
21:19:29 <pikhq> So, do I just rename that to a class, or untar it?
21:20:16 <ihope> oerjanj: thunks. Like output functions are thunks.
21:20:37 <ihope> .H is a thunk. r is a thunk. Continuations are thunks, I think.
21:20:44 * pikhq is going to beat some stuff with a bat
21:21:53 <pikhq> Yeah. GCJ and GIJ are borken here. :'(
21:22:13 <ihope> Without compilation, that is.
21:22:16 * pikhq installs sablevm & jikes, in hopes of it working better
21:22:24 <oerjanj> i have no problem understanding thunks. but for call-on-need you need to replace a thunk by its result.
21:22:49 <pikhq> Which should be part of the ebuild, or a dependency of the ebuild. . .
21:23:16 <ihope> oerjanj: I don't get what you're saying. Thunks wouldn't be evaluated until you call them.
21:23:24 <ihope> Calling != evaluating.
21:24:01 <pikhq> ihope: The algorithms page assumes that all temp cells need to be zeroed.
21:24:07 <oerjanj> the problem is having it evaluating just once if the value is used several places.
21:24:24 <ihope> Isn't that just optimization?
21:27:01 <oerjanj> in principle, i suppose. if you don't care about exponential blowup
21:28:50 <oerjanj> i was pondering how to use lazy-k for haskell and i found it might have trouble with recursive data structures
21:31:41 <oerjanj> because a naive implementation would construct the value again for the recursion. it was the same problem of not being able to remember values
21:32:55 <oerjanj> !bf >+[,>+<----------[>-<]>]#
21:33:28 <GregorR-L> !EgoBot thinks you're being abusive.
21:33:29 <GregorR-L> !EgoBot thinks you're being abusive.
21:33:31 <EgoBot> thinks you're being abusive.<CTCP>
21:33:34 * EgoBot thinks you're being abusive.
21:33:58 <oerjanj> i'm just trying to make this program work
21:34:22 <GregorR-L> I hav eno idea what you're trying to make it do ^^
21:34:46 <CakeProphet> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
21:34:52 <CakeProphet> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
21:35:05 <CakeProphet> I'm starting to see how it all fits together.
21:35:17 <CakeProphet> Though I probably messed this one up terribly.
21:35:29 <GregorR-L> Can't really tell with that paste :P
21:35:35 * ihope attempts to make a quine
21:35:54 * oerjanj resigns to a little hand debugging
21:35:55 <CakeProphet> Well.... I'm trying to figure out what the hell this one was supposed to do.
21:36:00 <EgoBot> 27 +++++++[>++++++>>><<<<-]>+. [23]
21:36:21 <ihope> Ah yes, the famous >>><<<<.
21:36:27 <ihope> !bf_txtgen +++++++[>++++++>>><<<<-]>+.
21:36:45 <GregorR-L> ihope: Good technique, you'll get a quine any day now :P
21:37:31 <CakeProphet> holy shit! I just figured out how it works.
21:37:32 <EgoBot> 103 +++++++++++++++[>+++>+++>++++>++++++<<<<-]>--.>--..<..>..>>+.<++.<<....>..>...--....<++.>>++.<++.<<.>+. [469]
21:37:41 <EgoBot> ~}|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:9876543210/.-,+*)('&%$#"!
21:37:56 <ihope> Great job, Gregor!
21:38:05 <CakeProphet> That's genius... I applaud whoever figured if x (blah) else (otherblah)
21:38:33 <ihope> !bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
21:38:47 <ihope> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
21:39:37 <ihope> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++...........................................+++...........................................---...
21:39:39 <EgoBot> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++...........................................+++
21:39:54 <oerjanj> !bf >+[,.>+<----------[>-<]>]<<[++++++++++.<]++++++++++.
21:40:09 <ihope> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++...........................................+++...........................................---...+++...........................................
21:40:11 <EgoBot> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++...........................................+++...........................................
21:40:26 <ihope> Getting there, eh?
21:40:30 <CakeProphet> !bf +++[>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<-]
21:41:04 <CakeProphet> !bf +++[>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<->]
21:41:17 <oerjanj> !bf >+[,.>+<----------[>-<]>]<<[++++++++++.<]++++++++++.
21:41:59 <EgoBot> .\Bp(V<j"P~6dJx0^Dr*X>l$R
21:42:06 <oerjanj> hm, that T may have been mine
21:43:28 <GregorR-L> No it isn't, it's buffered to avoid flooding.
21:43:57 <GregorR-L> And you guys killed it, didn't you >_<
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21:45:29 <GregorR-L> No, I'm saying the buffering makes it appear slow.
21:45:53 <CakeProphet> !bf +++>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<[>.<-]
21:46:38 <CakeProphet> !bf +++++>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<[>.<-]
21:47:54 <CakeProphet> It's basically... do ths... this many times.
21:50:11 <EgoBot> 61 +++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++>><<<<-]>--.>.<---.++++++++. [311]
21:53:31 <CakeProphet> NumberofTimes>+++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++>><<<<-]>--.>.<---.++++++++<[>.>.>.>.[<]-]
21:53:43 <CakeProphet> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++>><<<<-]>--.>.<---.++++++++<[>.>.>.>.[<]-]
21:54:03 <CakeProphet> !bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++>><<<<-]>--.>.<---.++++++++<[>.>.>.>.[<]-]
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21:54:49 <CakeProphet> Yeah.... egobot uses weird confusing stuff
21:55:11 <GregorR-L> It's a genetic algorithm. I didn't write it :P
21:55:57 * CakeProphet begins storing a collection of functions for later use.
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21:59:26 <CakeProphet> NumberofTimes>StuffToDoItToo<[>WhatistobeDone<-]
21:59:53 <CakeProphet> A do-crap-to-something-this-many-times function!
22:03:35 <EgoBot> Use: i <pid> <input> Function: send input to a process
22:06:46 <pikhq> textgen is actually damned clever. . .
22:08:05 <pikhq> Uses a lot of memory, though.
22:08:55 <pikhq> It's a genetic algorithm; sort of has to use a large amount of memory. . .
22:10:57 <CakeProphet> Does it automatically take non-brainfuck input and translate it into brainfuck?
22:12:14 <pikhq> It's what !bf_textgen is doing (except that if you run it on localhost, you have an infinite amount of generations for it do_.
22:13:19 <EgoBot> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
22:13:58 <pikhq> Ah. It quits after that.
22:14:54 <pikhq> !bf ,[>,<[>.<-][-]++++++++++.,]
22:15:01 <EgoBot> eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
22:15:04 <EgoBot> ttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
22:15:16 <EgoBot> ..............................................
22:15:38 <EgoBot> ..............................................
22:17:12 <CakeProphet> !bf +[>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>,<[>.<-]<]
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23:23:06 <GregorR-L> if(a.type[0] == a, {println("YAY");});
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