00:00:01 My contribs are sort-of inspired by a language I'm working on 00:00:06 (Well, not SWAP) 00:01:49 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("haaaaaaaaaa"). 00:01:49 I shall call it. . Esoterica! 00:03:58 QUINE //#<>+SWAP([{}]) 00:04:23 erm 00:04:42 Does QUINE just cause the statement given to be WHINEd, or future statements too? 00:10:15 How do bit sinks interact with vars-are-stacks? 01:20:15 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 01:43:47 -!- Razor-X has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:45:30 -!- Razor-X has joined. 01:47:54 -!- twobitsprite has joined. 01:48:29 hey... I was just reading some guys rant about Table Oriented Programming, and I was wondering if anyone knows of such a language? (he didn't mention anything, I guess he was just dreaming out loud, or something) 01:48:44 Table Oriented? 01:48:56 Let's look at a Table of Opcodes? ;D 01:49:02 (Sorry :P) 01:49:50 :P 01:50:08 http://www.geocities.com/tablizer/top.htm 01:50:45 Table oriented programming? 01:50:58 If this has to do with MKBL-LN,, 01:50:59 .. 01:51:24 Nope 01:51:27 I think 01:51:38 Uggh. Why does Sourceforge use Flash ads? 01:52:59 i hate flash ads... use flashblock 01:53:59 Table Oriented seems to cater to a limited programming sector, but I can see it being useful. 01:54:21 DB programming (or anything making heavy use of a large DB) is something I would never want to do -- ever. Personally. 01:54:25 it sounds interesting 01:55:30 does anyone else hate the term "AJAX"? 01:58:12 Lots. 01:59:03 (sorry, random thought) 01:59:20 Nah. This channel rarely is on topic. 02:00:54 man.... I hate it when I get the urge to program, open up vi, and stare at it for hours... 02:01:16 not only do I not know what I want to program, I don't even know what language I want to write it in... 02:01:20 That's because you use Vi. 02:02:47 ;P 02:03:04 lol 02:03:21 * twobitsprite fires up nano hoping for inspiration :P 02:04:54 That's a downgrade. 02:04:58 Upgrade to Emacs. 02:05:22 what's an Emacs? :P 02:05:36 Editor MACroS. 02:06:00 ohh... I thought it was Escape Meta Alt Control Shift... 02:06:57 * twobitsprite waits to be kicked 02:08:41 Escape isn't used in Emacs (unless you don't have a Meta key), Meta is used, Alt is bound to Meta by default, Control is used, and what editor doesn't use Shift? 02:08:53 We'd get: MCS or ACS, not EMACS. ;) 02:09:06 now you're just splitting hairs 02:09:53 By the same token, Vi should be called "Esc :qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbn Esc". 02:10:17 I still don't see (perhaps for my own shotcomings, having only two hands and all) how anyone can think C-n and C-p are more efficient than the arrow keys -- which of course are much less efficient than hjkl 02:10:55 C-n and C-p don't require you to move your hands from the main row of the keyboard. 02:11:29 right, well, holding control for minutes at a time hurts my pinky... it's still a stretch 02:11:31 And using hjkl requires you to hit Esc before you can edit. 02:11:50 Which requires moving your hand off the keyboard again. 02:11:59 esc doesn't require you to move you hand from the home row either... its about as far as control 02:12:19 Ctrl is to the left of a. 02:12:54 pikhq: I never bought into the idea that it's not emacs fault, but rather my keyboard manufacturer's fault 02:13:11 I'm also a GNU Screen and Ratpoison user. . . 02:13:23 I assure you; having the Ctrl key there is the nicest way to have things. 02:13:30 and I know I can remap the capslock key, but I can also remap it to esc 02:14:09 And if you *really* want to do the Vi thing, Emacs contains a Vi implementation. 02:14:22 whenever I'm in emacs I can never stop thinking "gee, I wish I could _toggle_ the ctrl key", and then remember that vi does that 02:14:34 pikhq: then why should I use emacs to emulate vi? 02:15:17 trust me, I'm not in a holy war... I gave emacs a thorough try... I used it exclusively for 1 month trying to get used to it, and it just didn't work out 02:16:18 and now that vim7 can match parens like emacs does, it lost the whole reason I even attempted to try emacs 02:19:30 twobitsprite: You can use the arrow keys in Emacs. 02:19:38 I know. It's quite crazy. 02:19:43 ;P 02:19:46 Enough with that. 02:21:11 Razor-X: I know you can... that isn't the point... but I agree... enough :P 02:21:56 seriously though... I'm actually curious... what's the big push to use emacs? 02:22:52 None. 02:23:02 We all use our own editors. 02:23:08 What's wrong with gedit or kate or something? 02:23:12 Heck, you can use Notepad, but I mean, whatever. 02:23:15 Sgeo: exactly 02:23:36 twobitsprite: You use free software, so you're not sinning against Emacs. ;) 02:23:37 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 02:23:52 (at least, you're not sinning with your Vim usage) 02:24:06 * Sgeo uses Opera web browser 02:24:08 * Sgeo ducks 02:24:11 pikhq: right... but it seemed to me like you were saying that I _should_ use emacs 02:24:19 Sgeo: Infidel! 02:24:33 twobitsprite: I just think Emacs is a much better editor. 02:24:37 Sgeo: do you really? is it that much better, I've never used it... 02:24:39 We all have our tastes. 02:24:44 pikhq: on what scale? 02:25:01 On the scale of "I like it, damn it". :p 02:25:05 Opera sometimes has issues resolving DNS 02:25:10 But that might just be me 02:25:13 (this is a *very* subjective test) 02:25:16 Opera > Firefox + 10000000000 02:25:17 But bookmark handling is great 02:25:19 IMO. 02:25:20 pikhq: ok.. I was just honestly curious if there were some objective reasons to use emacs over others 02:25:29 I like integrated email 02:25:46 I used to like feeds 02:26:07 Fast Forward is nifty 02:26:14 fast forward? 02:26:17 (< Opera (- Firefox '(All that is good in the world))) 02:26:44 BRB 02:26:54 Best thing about Firefox: With Conkeror, it's got 100% Emacs bindings. :) 02:27:15 lol 02:27:33 And with Conkeror and an entry in your config file, it has Vi bindings instead. 02:27:46 * twobitsprite googles 02:29:13 back 02:29:32 There is a button next to the forward button 02:29:50 If Opera sees a link that seems to go to a "next" page, Fast Forward takes you there 02:29:56 Shift-X is also fast forward 02:30:15 interesting 02:30:27 I wonder if there is a firefox plugin for that :P 02:30:35 It apparently can bring you across the images on a page 02:30:39 I just hit the number for the "next" link. 02:30:51 (numbered links: :)) 02:30:54 it remembers from the page that the image is on where the next image is 02:31:05 pikhq, Opera doesn't require that for Fast Forward 02:31:17 Yeah, yeah, yeah. . . 02:31:33 But, as Opera isn't free software, I must reject it. 02:32:18 Purist fundie 02:32:27 >.< 02:32:41 Willfully enslaved. 02:32:48 >.< 02:33:01 pikhq: I'm surprised you use firefox then... it has quite a bit of copyright embumberance 02:33:03 "enslaved"? 02:33:08 Firefox eats memory shamelessly. 02:33:33 Razor-X: I haven't noticed that moreso than other browsers 02:33:34 My Firefox instance of 5 tabs now uses almost as much RAM as my Opera instance of 35 tabs. 02:33:45 Razor-X: hmm 02:33:47 Razor-X, I've also noticed leakage 02:33:54 Maybe flash plugin thing? 02:33:59 ew 02:34:07 I vaguely remember hearing rumors about it 02:35:06 twobitsprite: Care to tell me of the copyright encumberance? 02:35:19 (there's some *trademark* encumberance, but not copyright encumberance) 02:35:37 Razor-X: Try Firefox 2.0. ;) 02:35:53 pikhq: ahh, that's what I meant 02:35:55 There's a 2.0? 02:36:04 Came out a few hours ago. 02:36:09 Razor-X: yeah, just came out a couple days ago 02:36:12 Please tell me they're getting back to their roots. 02:36:12 ohh 02:36:13 * Sgeo is going to upgrade to Ubuntu 6.10 this weekend 02:36:18 thought I saw something about it yesterday 02:36:22 Much lower memory usage. 02:36:25 maybe it was the unofficial release? 02:36:37 twobitsprite: Some idiot linked to the FTP server as they were uploading binaries. 02:36:39 Presumably FF2 will be there 02:36:39 Around 0.7, they completely changed focus away from a small and fast browser to Replacing Mozilla. 02:36:49 0.8, rather. 02:36:57 * Sgeo used firefox since 0.9 iirc 02:37:05 * Sgeo only recently switched to Opera 02:37:06 * pikhq started on Phoenix 02:37:06 I was a faithful Phoenix user from 0.2. 02:37:10 Phoenix? 02:37:20 Sgeo: original name 02:37:23 * pikhq still has a mild fondness for Ye Ol' Suite 02:37:23 The predecessor to Firefox's predecessor, Firebird. 02:37:30 went from pheonix to firebird to firefox 02:37:53 0.9 was the version number I decided Firefox is not working out. 02:38:01 Been using Opera since around that time. 02:38:06 konqueror is alright 02:38:14 * twobitsprite ducks (?) 02:40:04 * twobitsprite swats a coupld of crickets 02:44:26 * Sgeo used to use Konqueror 02:48:42 * pikhq updates to FF2.0 02:48:59 One of the major things done in FF2 is a reduction in memory footprint, BTW. 02:49:05 What version of GTK does FF2 compile against? 02:49:31 GTK2, I believe. 02:50:00 If you've got GNOME running, you've got the right libraries. :p 02:50:07 I don't :) 02:50:12 What version of GTK2.0 I mean. 02:51:01 Does "Damned if I know" count as an answer? 02:51:37 Seems my *current* GTK version is GTK 2.8.20-r1 (soon to be updated to 2.20.6). 02:51:49 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out). 02:52:05 One issue I've got; the version in Portage is 2RC3, not 2.0. . . 02:52:22 Oh well; the difference is in the name alone. ;) 02:54:06 hmm... I just found a webpage with a flash applet which has higher system requirements that I cannot meat 02:54:37 it's sad when a _webpage_ will jitter and sputter on my computer 02:54:50 GTK 2.4 isn't that old. Gah. 02:54:51 Now I've just got to wait on the heinous compile time (Gentoo, you know). 02:54:56 Bloddy developers you. 02:55:33 Ahah. 02:55:48 Seems that they list GTK 2.0 or better as a requirment. 02:55:59 Hooray. 02:55:59 2.4 counts as 2.0 or better. ;) 02:56:25 They. . . Still support 2.2.14. 02:56:39 (Linux 2.2.14) 02:57:02 2.4 counts as 2.0 or later :) 03:03:10 mmmm... notepad 03:03:16 I should get linux... or something... 03:03:20 GNU/Linux. 03:03:25 oh... and how do you make .tars in windows? I can't seem to do so. 03:03:28 SEMANTICS 03:03:30 Linux ain't all that useful without the rest of the OS. 03:03:56 Linux isn't useful without its liscence distribution? 03:04:03 (|217|51z3 |\/|3. 03:04:14 No, it's not useful without the rest of the operating system. 03:04:37 Right... 03:04:42 so... back to the matter at hand. 03:04:45 .tar in Windows 03:04:58 you have been given a challenge... show me how to format tarballs in Windows. 03:04:58 7zip. 03:05:10 >.> 03:05:13 Wassat? 03:05:42 A free software compression utility, with support for tarballs, among other formats. 03:08:10 pikhq, Hmm... would I want 32.bit or X64 installation? 03:08:34 CakeProphet: Depends; do you have a 32 bit or 64 bit Windows installation? 03:08:45 *shrugs 03:08:47 Got XP./ 03:08:51 can't remember the bittage. 03:09:00 -_-' 03:15:25 pikhq, Wow.... tarballs are insanely small... 03:15:39 CakeProphet: When compressed, yes. 03:15:51 Bzip2 is a really nice algorithm. . . 03:16:00 7zip's implementation of Gzip is also rather nice. 03:45:26 -!- RodgerTheGreat has changed nick to RodgerTheAfk. 04:07:15 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("haaaaaaaaaa"). 04:46:33 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:48:53 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:55:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:12:54 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:13:46 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 06:17:32 -!- Arrogant has joined. 06:39:48 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 07:48:20 Name a useful, popular, developer friendly, and cheap embedded platform. 07:48:51 Portable please :P 07:55:08 PIC 07:55:37 Make sure to get one that SDCC supports. 07:56:32 Well, PIC isn't strictly a "platorm" ... it's just a chip :P 07:56:39 You kinda have to roll-your-own platform ;) 07:57:09 And then, Gregor disappeared, leaving the conversation in a useless state. 07:57:10 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 07:57:24 NO! GregorR-L! COME BACK 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 10:17:06 -!- ihope__ has joined. 10:17:18 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope. 10:18:15 How 'bout your suggestions, ihope ? 10:18:26 Hmm? 10:37:20

Name a useful, popular, developer friendly, and cheap embedded platform. 11:11:22 if it's anything like normal computing, you can only have 3 out of 4. 11:12:30 often only POPULAR 11:22:56 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving"). 12:01:38 -!- jix has joined. 13:19:38 Razor-X: Busybox/Linux. ;) 13:23:42 -!- RodgerTheAfk has changed nick to RodgerTheGreat. 13:26:17 Razor-X: ooh- the PICAxe! 13:26:34 or perhaps the Audurino. 13:37:48 er... Arduino. 13:38:00 http://todbot.com/blog/2006/09/25/arduino-the-basic-stamp-killer/ 13:38:12 I can never remember how to spell the damn thing. 16:41:13 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 16:46:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:52:32 "int main (char *argv[]) {" 16:52:35 * SimonRC wibbles 16:54:01 i see there was some question about QUINE. 16:54:40 i certainly intended it to refer to future statements; in fact i did not intend QUINE by itself to run at all. 16:55:11 on the other hand, i was obviously influenced by just having invented UNDO etc. 17:45:40 * pikhq wonders how he could fix a bug in basm. . . 17:46:17 you edit the source code for basm, then re-compile if necessary. 17:46:22 XP 17:48:07 -_-' 17:48:34 recompilations are unnecessary 17:49:07 As it stands right now, it is broken when you have >>> runs longer than 255. 17:53:17 -!- Asztal has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.72-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.1b2/0000000000]"). 17:53:47 i would like you to include the macros i am working on now, it should make the whole thing easier to read 17:54:01 and then i can look at it afterwards 17:54:14 Soon as I see what macros you're working on, I'd be glad to. 17:54:26 Anything to make bfm saner is a good thing, IMO. ;) 17:56:36 Mmkay. . . 17:56:44 It now handles large pointer movements correctly. 17:56:55 Unfortunately, it's grown a bit because of that. 17:56:59 ah, you found the bug 17:57:45 Without the initial GPL header, it's 5419 characters. . . 17:57:58 *Still* the smallest Brainfuck compiler out there that I know of. ;) 17:58:58 * SimonRC watches someone type chinese. 17:59:14 Damn that system is unsuitable for typing. 17:59:24 I'd imagine so. 17:59:50 It'd cause the inventor to turn in his grave. 18:00:55 AFAICT, they type a latinish transliteration, which causes a box of chinese characters to popup, and they select the correct one using number keys. 18:02:45 ouch 18:10:01 i don't know if that is so unsuitable, provided you can press the number immediately if you know it. 18:11:59 it may be the best you can do given the chinese character system 18:13:00 I suppose do 18:13:57 on the other hand i have heard the dictionaries are organized by numbers of strokes, they probably have a typing system based on that too 18:15:21 he, that means chinese would have to be typed in a different manner dependent on whether you know the pronunciation or the symbol :) 18:54:01 Smallest brainfuck compiler written in brainfuck? 18:55:04 Argh. Damn thing is *still* broken. 18:55:35 Unless you think "<<<<" has 5 characters in it, that is. 19:01:17 Fixed it. . . :) 19:01:21 dbf2c.b is 874 bytes long, but doesn't do optimization or linefeed translation... 19:01:46 Ah. 19:01:54 Damn, that's a tiny compiler. 19:02:12 Mine is 5362 bytes long, but it does optimization and EOF=0. 19:02:36 And could *easily* be modified to handle linefeed translation. 19:03:00 it's been a long time since I changed it, so the code-reading part is old and clunky. I could probably save a little bit by grafting on the code-reading part from dbfi.b but I am still hoping to find something better and then use it for both programs. 19:04:34 If I ever find time I'll see how I can do on an optimizing one. 19:05:30 I have this giant list of postponed brainfuck-related projects :) 19:06:47 uh uh, we've got competition ;) 19:06:54 * dbc is afk, going to give blood 19:07:54 * SimonRC hopes esolanging isn't transmissible this way. 19:09:43 The code-reading part on mine is just a wee bit inelegant. 19:12:31 dbc: That's some nice work. 19:23:43 pikhq: there is now a new version of http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/stdcons.bfm, more than twice the size, including addcons* and subcons* macros 19:23:53 and a public domain notice 19:25:53 Using those macros should clean up basm.bfm a bit 19:27:11 you might want to keep both to have a shorter version with just cons* macros. 19:27:30 in that case, please include the public domain notice in the smaller one 19:28:18 Yay. 19:34:46 It's all in stdcons.bfm, BTW. 19:35:02 ok. 19:35:43 something that starts to worry me about the source command: am i right that it doesn't check whether a file has been sourced before? 19:36:37 for example, the file move.bfm is going to be sourced several times in an ordinary program 19:36:37 ba.b is now at 528. . . 19:36:57 It doesn't check that; it just assumes that you're going to use it sanely. 19:37:13 it would of course be a bigger problem if this happened with stdcons. 19:37:16 (macros being sourced again just redefine the macro) 19:37:27 5286. . . 19:37:38 Why would it? 19:37:56 well, just inefficient i guess 19:38:15 because it is a much larger file and so much more wasted work 19:38:36 I just assume Tcl handles this sanely. ;) 19:39:38 i don't think it makes any attempt to fix the problem in general. 19:40:43 Tcl, I *think*, handles multiple sources sanely (source is used in Tcl packages). . . 19:41:10 * pikhq leaves soon; new BFM tarball and Basm tarball will be up soon after I return home 19:42:00 it could just be it uses the same hack as C with #ifndef ALREADY_LOADED 19:49:17 -!- calamari has joined. 19:50:09 calamari: you now are acknowledged in stdcons.bfm 19:50:24 hi 19:50:28 what's that 19:51:27 the part of the stdlib of pikhq's BFM that contains macros for constant values 19:51:39 ahh, cool :) 19:53:12 they were generated from Brainfuck_constants, and i believe most of the brainfuck originals were your work 19:56:59 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 19:57:03 hah, Tcl load lists as a bug that it can load a file multiple times 19:57:25 system-dependently 20:15:36 -!- kipple_ has joined. 20:22:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 22:22:12 Great. . . 22:22:28 LostKng now works in a very. . . Odd manner in basm. 22:22:58 [Your score has just gone up by 1 point] 22:23:06 That should *not* be output when you hit "q"! 22:23:39 * pikhq curses loudly at the damned thing 22:27:52 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:38:20 hi 22:39:31 I can't even figure out what the bug is in basm now. 22:40:39 Scratch that; I've got a clue, and no idea how it occurs. 22:45:26 heh 22:45:38 what exactly does basm do? 22:45:47 I keep confusing it with BFM 22:49:09 Why are we not working on the factory language? 22:50:33 It compiles Brainfuck to C, and is written in BFM. 22:51:36 * pikhq realises a way to refactor BASM significantly. . . 22:51:55 basm 22:51:57 Argh. 22:53:36 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 22:53:45 * pikhq doesn't see it any more :/ 22:54:07 Why TF did Ubuntu just freeze??? 22:55:48 Sgeo_: microsoft radiation 22:55:55 lol 22:56:11 What did I miss since I asked "Why are we not working on the factory language" 22:56:33 oh n/m 22:57:38 * pikhq realises a way to make BFM nicer, though 23:01:14 Sgeo_: sry i was very busy today and yesterday 23:01:23 had no time to work on it 23:01:42 and i'm quite shocked on how difficuilt it will be to implement that.... 23:05:46 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:06:25 Evil Sgeo! 23:06:29 You mean that wasn't a design goal? 23:06:30 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo. 23:16:06 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 23:19:24 pikhq: well i expected a difficuilt to implement langauge 23:19:33 but this is ten times worse than my expections :| 23:19:48 Hahah. 23:22:39 jix, is this my fault in any way? 23:23:09 it's all submissions combined 23:23:27 No innocent submissions? 23:23:40 I'd think that pikhq's stuff is innocent >.< 23:24:14 well combined with my threading they arn't easy to implement 23:25:13 Presumably we will all help with the implementation 23:25:22 Though I'm not helping unless it's Python 23:25:45 and i don't know python 23:26:19 Dangit! I really wanted to help.. 23:26:33 :) 23:26:39 but we need a spec first anyway... 23:27:09 We should write the spec on Wiki 23:27:18 yeah 23:32:29 (> _ >)