2006-10-01:

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16:53:14 <SimonRC> oh deary me:   http://www.poetictech.com/
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17:33:37 <pikhq> Yeah, that's it.
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17:44:18 <ihope> This event brings the number of people named after food in this channel up to, um... one!
17:45:17 <pikhq> d/me sees none. . .
17:45:46 <pikhq> Ah.
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17:47:07 <calamari> hi
17:47:29 <calamari> btw.. I'm named after Star Wars.. sorry!
17:48:34 <pikhq> calamari==squid.
17:49:45 <calamari> calamari is squid used as food
17:50:24 <SimonRC> Best.  Name.  Evar.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ub_Iwerks
17:50:30 <calamari> but it is also the calamari cruiser (ship), and mon calamari (race) in star wars.. as seen in return of the jedi
17:50:56 <SimonRC> < SimonRC> oh deary me:   http://www.poetictech.com/
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18:05:15 <SimonRC> oerjan: hi
18:06:59 <oerjan> hi
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19:18:56 <SimonRC> hi, Sgeo
19:19:01 <Sgeo> Hi
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19:32:32 <ihope> You don't have permission to access /w/index.php on this server.
19:32:43 <ihope> Noes, the wiki is broken...
19:32:47 <ihope> I mean borken.
19:34:02 <pikhq> GGGRAH!!!
19:36:05 <oerjan> works for me, but i had problems earlier. it is just a bit unstable
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20:13:46 <SimonRC> yo
20:15:31 <oerjan> nes
20:15:45 <ihope> NES?
20:16:20 <oerjan> the opposite of yo
20:16:23 <SimonRC> ihope: Nintendo Entertainmen Syste,
20:17:35 * ihope nods
20:17:52 * oerjan yesds
20:19:28 <oerjan> wow, even wikipedia is borken today
20:20:37 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/ Thoughts?
20:21:49 <oerjan> thoughts? on nonlogic?
20:22:07 * oerjan is feeling extremely punny today
20:22:26 <pikhq> :p
20:30:05 <oerjan> hm, am i right if i guess that a BFM program can only access the named variables, and no other locations?
20:31:21 <oerjan> so no turing completeness if cell size is bounded, even if the tape is unbounded
20:33:11 <oerjan> it seems a bit strange to call it a macro package for BF if BF is not actually a sub-language. it is more like a language compiled into (a subset of) BF.
20:34:01 <pikhq> oerjan: Well, the version I have in ~ has a special variable called "current" which is the current location on the array. . . And left number, right number to move in the array, and at variable to tell the parser where we're at in the code once down using "current".
20:34:43 <pikhq> oerjan: Also, you could just abuse comments to do the same thing (comments are output verbatim into the resulting BF code).
20:35:38 <pikhq> oerjan: I should *probably* get that tarball up to date and update that page.
20:36:26 <oerjan> but will arbitrary inline code not wreak havoc with variable positioning?
20:36:56 <pikhq> oerjan: Thus why I added the "right", "left", and "at" commands.
20:37:25 <pikhq> Allows us to go back to standard variable positioning.
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20:40:09 <oerjan> i see. i'll have to wait for your uploading
20:40:49 <pikhq> Let me clean up some code. . .
20:42:17 <pikhq> oerjan: http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bfm.tar.bz2
20:42:51 * pikhq should fix his BFM -> C compiler sometime. . .
20:45:23 <SimonRC> woohoo!  *bounce* *bounce* *bounce*   http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4526819805867391097
20:45:30 <SimonRC> ;-D
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20:56:08 <oerjan> i see .. now i'll just have to wait for an updated spec, so i can understand what the new commands actually do...
20:56:56 <oerjan> or, left, right and at just tell the macro processor the effect of inlined code, right?
20:57:54 <pikhq> left 5 = "<<<<<"
20:58:01 <pikhq> right 5 = ">>>>>"
20:58:24 <pikhq> at foo tells the macro processor that the pointer is at foo (once you're done using left and right).
20:59:05 <pikhq> And "current" just corresponds to the current location at the pointer (no moving around to another variable).
20:59:33 <pikhq> while current {subtract current 1}
20:59:36 <pikhq> [-]
20:59:46 <pikhq> @ foo 0
20:59:50 <pikhq> @ bar 5
20:59:59 <pikhq> while bar {subtract bar 1}
21:00:04 <pikhq> >>>>>[-]
21:00:08 <pikhq> See the difference?
21:00:56 <oerjan> aha.
21:01:32 <pikhq> BTW, to prove that I've made it Turing complete, there's a script in that tarball which compiles from BF to BFM.
21:02:57 <oerjan> hm, there is a problem here, what about left and right inside while?
21:03:15 <pikhq> while current { left 5 }
21:03:16 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out).
21:03:21 <pikhq> [<<<<<]
21:03:23 <pikhq> Your point?
21:03:30 <pikhq> Or do you mean:
21:03:32 <pikhq> @ foo 0
21:03:38 <pikhq> while foo { left 5 }
21:03:40 <pikhq> ?
21:04:00 <oerjan> the latter would show the problem, yes
21:05:26 <pikhq> I think it would compile the same as while current { left 5 }.
21:05:57 <pikhq> Keep in mind, though, that using a variable after left or right without at is undefined behavior.
21:06:13 <oerjan> that's what i wondered
21:11:50 <oerjan> except outside while, then left and right seem to keep track of location
21:13:00 <pikhq> Uh. . . Don't think so. . .
21:13:03 <pikhq> @ foo 0
21:13:06 <pikhq> @ bar 5
21:13:11 <pikhq> right 5
21:13:23 <pikhq> add current 5
21:13:33 <pikhq> add bar 5
21:14:16 <pikhq> While it's obvious the pointer is at 5, (and therefore >>>>>++++++++++), the actual result is >>>>>+++++>>>>>+++++.
21:15:36 <pikhq> The parser doesn't know that the pointer is at 5; all it knows is that it needs to output >>>>>+++++, and (since the pointer, according to its simpleton parsing, is at 0) >>>>>+++++.
21:17:08 <oerjan> have you tested it?
21:17:11 <pikhq> Thus, the point of the at command: telling the parser where the pointer is.
21:17:14 <pikhq> Yeah.
21:18:00 <oerjan> how can it be, when proc right clearly contains incr ::location?
21:18:53 <pikhq> . . . Gah.
21:19:01 <pikhq> I need to test it again.
21:19:11 <pikhq> May have changed some stuff to make it work.
21:21:37 <pikhq> . . . You're right.
21:21:56 <pikhq> Somehow, the code works more cleverly than I thought it did.
21:22:05 <pikhq> :)
21:22:15 <oerjan> it will only work outside while, however
21:22:48 <pikhq> Yeah.
21:23:19 <oerjan> if you wanted to be more clever you could check whether ::location was the same at the beginning and end of a while, and if not set ::location to some "undefined" value
21:23:50 <pikhq> Yeah. . .
21:24:06 <pikhq> I take it you're a Tcler?
21:24:25 <oerjan> no, surprisingly not i am just guessing how it works
21:24:38 <pikhq> Ah.
21:24:51 <pikhq> Because you seem to be getting a very good feel for how it works. . .
21:25:03 <pikhq> Fortunately, large amounts of it are fairly simple.
21:25:57 <oerjan> yes.but why do some procs have _ at the begining of their name?
21:26:31 <pikhq> If I didn't have _, then it would conflict with a Tcl command.
21:27:31 <pikhq> Since those commands are just bound into the blanked slave interpreter, it doesn't matter, anyways.
21:28:13 <SimonRC> Spot the difference:   http://www.timecube.com/   http://www.wrightforcongress.net/
21:28:51 <pikhq> Different bullshit.
21:29:56 <pikhq> Oooh! And he knows the marquee tag, too!
21:31:46 <SimonRC> lolol
21:32:08 <oerjan> what does the array command do?
21:32:37 <pikhq> oerjan: As of now, nothing.
21:33:01 <pikhq> Ideally, it will be used for defining an array to be manipulated by getarray and setarray (which aren't in stdlib/ yet).
21:33:46 <pikhq> And it will define the array in such a way that one can either call cells in the array as a variable or via getarray and setarry.
21:34:05 <pikhq> Calls via a variable being hardcoded, calls via getarray/setarray using a pointer.
22:00:39 <pikhq> oerjan: Playing around with it, or just trying to understand it?
22:03:59 <SimonRC> Oh for Gods' sakes!
22:04:02 <SimonRC> Slashdot just put up a front-page article which is a dupe of a dupe of a dupe.
22:04:31 <ihope_> A what?
22:05:41 <oerjan> just trying to understand it
22:05:45 <pikhq> I think it's up to quadup.
22:06:07 <SimonRC> a dupe is an article that is redundant because it has already been posted about.
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22:18:29 <SimonRC> hi
22:21:16 <oerjan> hm... dupe, tripe, quadrupe...
22:22:59 <Robdgreat> ugh tripe
22:23:42 <oerjan> you look abbreviated today...
22:24:57 <oerjan> ah, you're a different person
22:26:06 <Robdgreat> yeah
22:26:11 <Robdgreat> I haven't been in here in a while
22:35:26 <oerjan> well, good night
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23:17:02 * SimonRC goes to bed
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2006-10-02:

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09:51:29 <SimonRC> Hotel Echo Lima Lima Oscar
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12:03:43 <SimonRC> hi *2
12:04:01 <wooby> hello
12:04:53 <wooby> what is crackin
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18:14:04 <SimonRC> lol: Someone on Slashdot lists bundling TCP/IP connectivity with the OS as a reason to dislike MS.  Duh!    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=198669&cid=16278447
18:15:24 <GregorR-W> >_O
18:15:31 <GregorR-W> And instead you should use, what, DOS?
18:21:01 <oerjan> why, you should of course whistle into the modem.
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18:47:15 * pikhq would be pissed if a TCP/IP stack weren't part of the *kernel*. . .
18:47:23 <pikhq> GregorR-W: Windows 3.1. :p
18:50:21 * SimonRC wants more stuff in Userland
18:50:35 <SimonRC> preferrably the boot monitor too.
18:50:38 <SimonRC> ;-)
18:51:54 * SimonRC goes to eat dinner
18:53:05 * GregorR-W hands SimonRC GNU/Hurd
18:53:07 <GregorR-W> Enjoy.
19:35:04 <calamari> you can do tcp/ip from dos :)
19:40:47 <GregorR-W> calamari: But it's not bundled with the OS, that was the point.
19:41:06 <calamari> ahh well then that proves that dos is the ultimate os
19:42:06 <calamari> real mode ftw
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20:33:00 <SimonRC> For those of you who haven't seen it, a pathalogical language:   http://home.inreach.com/sl2120/Ithkuil/index.htm
20:36:18 <SimonRC> Speaking it may be considered analogous to programming by writing gzipped binaries using a text editor.
20:38:21 <SimonRC> on second thoughts...
20:38:36 <SimonRC> Speaking it may be considered analogous to programming by writing gzipped Malbolge using a text editor.
20:40:34 <SimonRC> Typical quote from the grammar:   "The PARTITIVE case is marked by Series G vocalic mutation of the stem along with Grade 3 mutation of the C2 radical consonant."
20:41:58 * oerjan thinks you exaggerate a bit
20:42:40 <oerjan> gzip compression is, as far as I know, non-local.
20:43:09 <oerjan> and mutations are not unusual in ordinary human languages
20:43:38 <oerjan> consider just the english: sing, sang, sung
20:44:24 <oerjan> but i assume ithkuil is a _bit_ denser than usual :)
20:44:32 <SimonRC> you could say that
20:45:27 <oerjan> btw i used to subscribe to the conlang mailing list so i may be damaged already...
20:46:16 <oerjan> never got around to fleshing out my own languages though - about the same situation as with my esolangs
20:47:20 * oerjan dances a little procrastination dance
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20:55:20 <oerjan> who was that lambda?
20:59:22 <CakeProphet> So... math people...
20:59:25 <CakeProphet> tell me what's wrong with this:
20:59:34 * oerjan rubs his hands
21:01:30 <CakeProphet> i^2 = -1
21:01:32 <CakeProphet> i^6 = i^2 * i^2 * i^2
21:01:33 <CakeProphet> i^6 = -1 * -1 * -1
21:01:35 <CakeProphet> i^6 = -1
21:01:36 <CakeProphet> i^2 = i^6
21:01:38 <CakeProphet> 2 = 6
21:02:07 <SimonRC> everything is correct up to the last line
21:02:21 <CakeProphet> WHy would it be wrong?
21:02:33 <oerjan> indeed, i^4 = 1.
21:02:56 <oerjan> for the same reason that (-1)^2 = 1^2 does not imply -1 = 1
21:03:18 <CakeProphet> *shakes head*
21:03:22 <CakeProphet> Different thing
21:03:26 <lindi-> no it isn't
21:03:28 <oerjan> not really
21:03:51 <oerjan> exponentiation is not one-to-one in either argument
21:03:53 <SimonRC> they are both cases of no-thingumy functions
21:04:10 <lindi-> no-thingumy?
21:04:21 <CakeProphet> Right there... I'm using the whole   if a^y = a^x  then y = x
21:04:22 <SimonRC> I can't recall the term
21:04:39 <CakeProphet> (-1)^2 = 1^2   has different bases.
21:05:16 <oerjan> well, that implication does not hold unless a is positive and x,y are real
21:05:25 <lindi-> CakeProphet: maybe a is defined for all real numbers in your case :)
21:05:33 <CakeProphet> Ah.
21:05:50 <CakeProphet> Could be.
21:06:05 <lindi-> and think about 1^5 = 1^3
21:06:08 <CakeProphet> damn you imaginaries... always leaving me inable-to-prove-2-equals-6
21:06:25 <lindi-> so i guess a > "
21:06:26 <lindi-> so i guess a > 2
21:06:29 <lindi-> so i guess a >= 2
21:06:30 <oerjan> indeed, if a is complex and x not an integer, then a^x is usually considered to have multiple values
21:07:46 <CakeProphet> If it were true.. it would only be a matter of time before you could prove that a number equals every other number.
21:08:22 <lindi-> indeed you must not see ^ as a function in that context
21:08:40 <lindi-> it's just a shorthand for expressing solutions of an equation
21:09:58 <oerjan> let's see...
21:10:53 <oerjan> ln (a^x) = x* ln(a)
21:11:32 <oerjan> where ln is not a function either in this context, but just a solution to exp(ln x)=x
21:12:19 <oerjan> however, exp is a function.
21:12:58 <SimonRC> indeed it is
21:12:58 <oerjan> exp(a+ib) = e^a * (cos b + i sin b)
21:14:41 <SimonRC> exp(z) = sum [ z^n / factorial n | n <- [0..]], IIRC
21:15:00 <oerjan> yes.
21:17:38 <oerjan> now, when a is positive, then ln a can be taken as the unique real solution.
21:18:09 <SimonRC> yup
21:18:10 <oerjan> and then a^x = exp(x*ln a) is uniquely defined for all complex x.
21:18:35 <SimonRC> cool
21:19:17 <oerjan> so when using exponentiation one needs to be careful about what numbers are involved. no wonder Haskell provides threee different versions...
21:19:55 <SimonRC> that ois more of an efficiency thing, surely?
21:20:16 <oerjan> although probably not for that reason. it has to do with type classes
21:24:14 <oerjan> let's see, a^x requires x to be a positive integer
21:24:42 <oerjan> a ^^ x allows x negative, a must be of a type with division
21:26:49 <oerjan> and a ** x is for floating numbers, real or complex. Haskell doesn't seem to have any special case for a positive.
21:28:13 <oerjan> except that for real floating types, a ** x probably gives an error if a negative.
21:29:20 <oerjan> but enough of haskell. for the real mathematical stuff, to sum up:
21:30:20 <oerjan> a ^ x is well defined if either a is positive real, _or_ x is an integer. otherwise it has multiple complex values.
21:31:23 <oerjan> oh, and if a is 0, then x must be a non-negative integer, period.
21:31:45 <oerjan> positive, i mean
21:36:44 * pikhq has been working on updating the BFM to C compiler to match modern-day, truly Turing complete BFM. . .
21:37:11 <pikhq> And, for complex code, it seems a whee bit broken.
21:40:04 <pikhq> And the resulting C code *seems* to be correct.
21:40:11 <pikhq> Of course, it quite obviously *isn't*.
21:40:47 <oerjan> obviously?
21:41:40 <pikhq> When uncompress.bfm, a program which has worked correctly for all incarnations of BFM so far, fails to work, I call something "broken".
21:43:10 <oerjan> sounds like a reasonable conclusion
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2006-10-03:

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02:31:14 <GregorR-L> http://www.migniot.com/matrix/projects/jsvim < Does this work for any of you?
03:19:13 <calamari> doesn't seem to work here
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15:32:57 <CakeProphet> Hmmm
16:45:23 <CakeProphet> Argh
16:45:32 <CakeProphet> I hate when I get weird indention errors in Python that make absolutely no sense.
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19:03:38 * pikhq really, really hates the subtlety of these $#@% bugs
19:04:21 <oerjan> what bug?
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19:10:07 <fr34k> lo
19:10:12 -!- fr34k has changed nick to boblol.
19:10:24 <oerjan> en
19:10:44 <oerjan> (hi was too obvious)
19:10:53 <boblol> ??
19:11:03 <boblol> oh
19:11:05 <boblol> i see
19:11:18 <boblol> lo = low, hi = high ??
19:11:26 <oerjan> right
19:11:36 <boblol> ah
19:11:43 <boblol> that wasnt supposed to be like that
19:11:43 <boblol> anyho
19:12:20 <boblol> still havn't solved twenty :P
19:12:57 <oerjan> well, cheat like i accidentally did
19:13:28 <oerjan> or let's restate:
19:13:42 <oerjan> if twenty -> twnt, then twentyone -> ?
19:13:45 <boblol> but i cant find anythin on google
19:14:09 <oerjan> i think i googled for twnt
19:14:45 <oerjan> (hm, maybe i cheated on purpose that time. don't remember.)
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19:16:22 <fr34k> disconn!
19:16:52 <fr34k> could someone kick boblol? (thas me)
19:17:47 <lament> fr34k: use nickserv.
19:19:37 <fr34k> what do you mean?
19:21:09 <lament> fr34k: /msg nickserv help
19:21:14 <oerjan> do /msg nickserv ghost <nickname> <password>, i think
19:22:11 <fr34k> oki
19:22:29 -!- boblol has quit (Nick collision from services.).
19:23:06 <oerjan> btw, is there any difference between ghost and recover?
19:24:03 -!- fr34k has changed nick to boblol.
19:24:07 <boblol> i dunno
19:27:04 -!- boblol has changed nick to boblol|afk.
19:29:02 <pikhq> All I know for sure is that, somehow, *temp2=0;*temp2+=1; leaves (*temp2==0).
19:30:29 <oerjan> that sounds rather impossible.
19:31:15 <pikhq> Begin: GDB flood
19:31:19 <pikhq> (gdb) print *temp2
19:31:19 <pikhq> $16 = 0 '\0'
19:31:19 <pikhq> (gdb) set variable *temp2++
19:31:19 <pikhq> (gdb) print *temp2
19:31:19 <pikhq> $17 = 0 '\0'
19:31:21 <pikhq> (gdb)
19:31:37 <pikhq> That. . . Doesn't seem possible.
19:32:42 <oerjan> um, *temp2++ might actually increment temp2, not *temp2. not quite sure.
19:33:41 <oerjan> but i seem to recall something about pre-/postfix C operators acting from right to left.
19:33:53 <pikhq> . . . It *did*.
19:33:56 <pikhq> GAH!
19:34:06 <pikhq> ++*temp2;?
19:34:09 <oerjan> however that would not explain *temp2+=1.
19:34:20 <pikhq> The code is currentlt *temp2++.
19:35:17 <oerjan> well, move ++ or use parentheses
19:35:37 <pikhq> It's script generated code. . .
19:35:44 * pikhq curses at pointer arithmetic
19:36:01 <oerjan> BFM?
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19:36:14 <pikhq> Yup.
19:36:16 <pikhq> BFM2C
19:36:36 <oerjan> that's what i meant
19:37:15 <oerjan> well, have the script insert parentheses.
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20:07:43 <boblol|afk> hey pikhq?
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23:19:46 <ihope> My biology teacher told me to study, and I studied.
23:19:55 <ihope> I didn't study much, of course.
23:20:33 <ihope> And my pre-calc teacher told me to study too, but I don't feel like it.
23:20:54 <ihope> And for English, there's some homework that probably isn't due tomorrow.
23:21:02 <ihope> Same for pre-calc.
23:25:39 <ihope> So I've decided I'm done with homework for today.
23:27:06 <pikhq> . . . You in HS, too?
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23:33:39 <|wez|> what is the criteria for a language to be Turing-complete?
23:33:46 <lament> um.
23:33:52 <lament> it has to be turing-complete.
23:34:05 <pikhq> It needs to be (theoretically) capable of computing anything that can be computed.
23:34:15 <lament> it has to be equivalent in power to a turing-machine, or better.
23:34:32 <pikhq> The easiest way of proving this is proving that one can translate Brainfuck into the language. ;)
23:36:00 <|wez|> I am working on my first Esoteric language, but I guess it is not turing-complete then =)
23:36:28 <pikhq> What commands does it have?
23:36:40 <|wez|> http://nocluestudios.com/MonkeyCode/
23:37:18 <pikhq> *echm* Would it kill you to make it free software?
23:38:13 <|wez|> no, I plan to do it
23:38:13 <Asztal> all your code are ... nevermind
23:39:16 <pikhq> By "free", I do of course mean "allow all to use, study, share, and change". ;)
23:39:40 <|wez|> I know...
23:39:44 <pikhq> Without that, it might not ever run on my OS, anyways. . .
23:39:50 * pikhq is a GNU/Linux user
23:40:16 <lament> um, .exe, what's that?
23:40:25 <|wez|> but I wants to clean up the source and stuff, before I release the source
23:40:58 <pikhq> Ah.
23:41:07 <pikhq> lament: A Windows binary.
23:41:14 <pikhq> Gross, ain't it?
23:41:26 <lament> oh, those things that sometimes get sent in email attachments that my ISP marks as a virus
23:41:31 <lament> i get it now
23:42:04 <|wez|> smoke time brb
23:42:11 <pikhq> lament: Ugly stuff.
23:42:22 <pikhq> I hear that it doesn't even really do AMD64.
23:46:51 <|wez|> isn't amd mobile sempron 64 bit?
23:47:05 <pikhq> Yeah.
23:47:16 <pikhq> But the OS you're using probably isn't. ;)
23:48:34 <|wez|> I guess it isn't =P
23:50:03 <|wez|> any comments about MonkeyCode?
23:50:41 <pikhq> A) Needs a branching operation B) Needs to be free software.
23:52:51 <|wez|> a) I don't understand what you mean, since english isn't my first language b)It will be soon,GPL or public domain
23:55:30 <pikhq> A branching operation would mean something like a conditional "GOTO" statement (or something similar). . .
23:56:27 <pikhq> Brainfuck has the [], BASIC has IF, C has if() {} & while() {}, and Tcl has if {} {} & while {} {}.
23:56:56 <pikhq> Without that, you're not Turing complete.
23:57:26 <|wez|> I understand
23:57:59 <pikhq> You have nothing of that sort. . .
23:58:05 <|wez|> I know
23:58:10 <|wez|> it is on my list
23:58:14 <|wez|> of things to do

2006-10-04:

00:01:36 <|wez|> I need to get the stroke of genious first, I am not sure how to incorperate it in to the language
00:02:29 <pikhq> Other than that, I *think* you've got +-><., done.
00:03:13 <lament> |wez|: and what's your native language?
00:03:24 <|wez|> norwegian
00:03:35 <lament> ouch
00:03:48 <|wez|> what?
00:03:49 <lament> is that the one that's like swedish but with a potato in your mouth?
00:03:55 <lament> no, i think that's dutch
00:04:16 <|wez|> it's like durch whitout the potato and beer
00:04:26 <|wez|> dutch
00:05:58 <|wez|> lament: swedish with a potato in my mouth would be danish
00:06:25 <lament> oh
00:11:03 <|wez|> in brainfuck how exactly does [] works? I guess it is a while loop, but what values does it check for?
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00:12:47 <lament> the pink ones
00:13:37 <|wez|> oooh, i thought it was the ones colored #7f7f7f
00:24:34 <|wez|> hmm so [] only checks if current pointer is zero or not, if it is not continue the while loop, that shouldn't be to hard to implement in MonkeyCode
00:37:39 <lament> basically the intuitive definition of turing-completeness is:
00:38:02 <lament> if you can make it out of two apples, a roll of string and a piece of cardboard, it's turing-complete
00:38:29 <pikhq> lament: Wrong.
00:38:40 <lament> pikhq: no.
00:39:34 <pikhq> lament: I can create an abacus from that, but it wouldn't be Turing complete.
00:39:39 <Asztal> the 4 objects represent a binary value, which is an instruction. how they change over time defines the program!
00:40:21 <lament> pikhq: it's about how you use it
00:40:38 <|wez|> lament: soo, everything is turing-complete, since we have macGyver?
00:40:40 <pikhq> lament: Your definition is wrong, however.
00:40:52 <lament> pikhq: my definitions are never wrong. By definition.
00:41:10 <pikhq> One can create something that's not Turing complete from that; you said that if you can create something with that, then it's Turing complete.
00:41:32 <pikhq> Therefore, your definition is wrong. QED.
00:42:11 <lament> Prove your first premise.
00:42:14 <pikhq> And your definition was just wrong. Therefore, your definition of a "definition" is, itself, wrong.
00:42:32 <pikhq> |--O--O--|
00:42:39 <lament> Your FACE is wrong.
00:43:43 <pikhq> We have there a trinary abacus (the cardboard is in half, the string is drawn between its two halves and tied to it, and the string goes through the apples), with only one digit.
00:43:48 <pikhq> That is clearly not Turing complete.
00:44:13 <pikhq> Therefore, one can create something that's not Turing complete from 2 apples, a piece of cardboard, and string. QED.
00:44:35 <lament> there's a fault in your proof.
00:44:43 <pikhq> Which is?
00:44:47 <lament> I'm not sure.
00:45:15 <pikhq> Then you were wrong to say that there's a fault in my proof.
00:45:23 <pikhq> Welcome to elementry logic.
00:45:23 <lament> but it is obviously critical since it leads you to an incorrect conclusion.
00:45:38 <lament> Aha! You misspelled 'elementary'!
00:45:45 <lament> THAT'S it.
00:45:47 <pikhq> The "correct" conclusion itself wasn't proven correct.
00:45:58 <pikhq> And my misspelling wasn't part of the proof.
00:46:53 <lament> I can prove the correct conclusion.
00:47:14 <pikhq> Please, do so.
00:47:26 <lament> I'll prove the contrapositive, that is, anything which is not turing-complete is not made out of two apples, a roll of string and a piece of cardboard.
00:47:52 <pikhq> I just disproved the contrapositive.
00:47:58 <lament> It's a simple inductive proof.
00:48:15 <pikhq> Err. Allow me to disprove it.
00:48:21 <pikhq> You first.
00:48:21 <lament> You haven't seen it yet.
00:48:43 <lament> Consider any non-turing-complete object X.
00:49:05 <lament> By definition, X is of a lower computational class than a turing machine.
00:49:24 <lament> Therefore X can be emulated by a turing-machine.
00:49:41 <lament> Two apples, a roll of string and a piece of cardboard cannot be emulated by a turing machine.
00:49:51 <lament> therefore, X is not made out of aforementioned materials.
00:50:32 <pikhq> But one can emulate this in a Turing-complete machine.
00:50:39 <pikhq> Consider the universe.
00:50:53 <lament> The universe isn't Turing-complete, being finite
00:51:17 <pikhq> The universe's finite state hasn't been proven.
00:51:27 <pikhq> It could be either finite or infinite.
00:51:44 <pikhq> At least, it's finite existence in the dimension of time hasn't been proven.
00:52:07 <pikhq> Anyways, the universe fits the *practical* definition of Turing completeness.
00:52:41 <pikhq> It emulates many finite-state automata, which (except for the infinite memory requirement) are Turing complete.
00:53:02 <pikhq> These finite-state automata, you may know as "personal computers".
00:53:41 <lament> if you consider finite state machines to be turing complete, you are rather outrageously misguided and deluded.
00:53:42 <pikhq> So, the universe is clearly pratically Turing complete (which, BTW, is the definition we should be dealing with, as we are merely talking about practical devices).
00:54:11 <pikhq> lament: They are *practically* Turing complete; that is, if they had access to an infinite storage device, they would be Turing complete.
00:54:14 <lament> we're not talking about practical devices. I have never seen a practical device made from two apples, a roll of string and a piece of cardboard.
00:54:24 <pikhq> |--O-O--|
00:54:32 <pikhq> One-digit trinary abacus.
00:54:39 <lament> that's practical????
00:54:39 <pikhq> Surely it exists in practice.
00:55:06 <pikhq> lament: For this definition of practical (can actually be made in our finite universe and used), yes, it is practical.
00:55:19 <lament> you keep redefining things
00:55:24 <pikhq> No, I'm not.
00:55:31 <lament> you're not, but you do.
00:55:38 <pikhq> I merely paid attention in Computer Science 101. :
00:55:40 <pikhq> :p
00:55:42 <lament> You keep abusing grammar, too.
00:56:08 <pikhq> It's IRC; if you can understand it, don't give a fuck.
00:56:17 <lament> Perhaps English is not your native language. To make communication easier, I will switch to toki pona.
00:56:31 <pikhq> I see you failed Logic 101, as well.
00:56:47 <lament> toki ni li pona ala pona tawa sina?
00:56:59 <pikhq> You have so far not actually argued against my logic. You've argued against everything *but* my logic.
00:57:04 <pikhq> And I don't speak Toki Pona.
00:57:11 <lament> mi pilin e ni: sina sona ala e ilo Turing.
00:57:16 <pikhq> I'm a native English speaker, damn it.
00:57:41 <lament> ni li pona :)
00:57:51 <pikhq> Cxu vi parolas Esperanton?
00:58:16 <lament> toki Epelanto li ike tawa mi. toki Epelanto li kalama ike!
01:11:51 <pikhq> Koroshitai.
01:11:51 <Asztal> :(
01:11:51 <lament> :(
01:11:51 <lament> Asztal: what
01:11:51 <Asztal> It's a language!
01:11:51 <lament> :(
01:11:51 <lament> which one?
01:11:51 * pikhq has so far used 3 different languages
01:11:51 <Asztal> :( :) =|;{> :|
01:11:51 <Asztal> lament: Bulgarian.
01:11:51 <pikhq> I'm contemplating using a fourth: dumbass.
01:11:51 <pikhq> ;)
01:11:51 <lament> pikhq hates me :(
01:11:51 <lament> but that's okay, i would hate me too if i were him.
01:11:51 <pikhq> Don't hate you; I just think you're playing a fool for fun & profit.
01:11:51 <pikhq> I will hate you after a few more hours of this, though. :p
01:20:23 <ihope> Now, what was that?
01:20:29 <ihope> The... hmm.
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02:24:58 <|wez|> good night
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21:30:24 <SimonRC> hi and bye to the several of you
21:30:42 <SimonRC> (as appropriate)
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21:51:34 <calamari> hi
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21:56:46 <oerjan> de ho
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22:32:38 <Keymaker> http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/programs/aura/hey.aura
22:32:45 <Keymaker> http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/programs/aura/loop.aura
22:33:38 <Keymaker> http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/index.php?page=langs&lang=Aura
22:34:54 <Keymaker> damn, should've linked only the last link, as it has the other two linked in it. oh well
22:37:42 <GregorR-W> http://www.donotputthebaby.com/index.php?s=Condom
22:41:07 <Keymaker> a lot folk here today. anyways.. termination..
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22:45:30 <calamari> GregorR: hehe.. my wife is due in April... so I guess we followed that one ;)
22:46:32 <calamari> here was an ipod color test http://www.felixbruns.de/iPod/iPodLinux/M4100002.JPG
22:46:54 <GregorR-W> Wow, awesome 8-D
22:47:17 <calamari> well, in regular graphics mode it is fine.. but that was a console using ansi escape sequences
22:47:36 <calamari> so now I need to debug it
22:48:00 <calamari> also, underline, bold, low intensity, reverse video don't work properly
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23:15:34 * SimonRC wonders where a description of Aura is.
23:15:55 * oerjan is currently reading the interpreter
23:17:58 <oerjan> it seems more like a debugger - it prints the memory contents before each step
23:22:09 * pikhq has fun with Brainfuck Golf. . .
23:24:08 <RodgerTheGreat> nothing quite like the 'ol BFG.
23:24:28 <pikhq> Indeed.
23:24:40 -!- paparent has joined.
23:24:51 <pikhq> And there's the good man making it happen.
23:27:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I want to see your 42-instruction solution.
23:28:17 <paparent> pikhq: did you tell about the golf ?
23:28:26 <ihope> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
23:28:30 <ihope> 42 instructions.
23:28:59 <RodgerTheGreat> we probably should've explained more.
23:29:00 <ihope> It outputs ")".
23:29:10 <ihope> Yes, good idea.
23:29:18 <RodgerTheGreat> the challenge: output the lowercase letters a through z
23:29:25 <RodgerTheGreat> my best: 45.
23:29:32 <paparent> my best: 44
23:29:32 <ihope> Oh, sheesh, it might be easy.
23:30:21 <pikhq> Hard part is getting a small solution.
23:30:31 <RodgerTheGreat> and thanks to feesh's score of 56, my ego remains intact
23:30:38 <paparent> hehe
23:30:49 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, yeah. My first try was 48, and I didn't really have any trouble *doing* it.
23:31:14 <RodgerTheGreat> it's interesting because you have to initialize two constants, and there are many ways to fiddle with things.
23:31:21 <ihope> Wrapping cells ranging from 0 to 255, infinite to the right, starting on the leftmost cell?
23:31:40 <RodgerTheGreat> the contest/reference interpreter are here: http://paparent.nonlogic.org/index.php/brainfuck)
23:32:21 <RodgerTheGreat> and I believe you're correct, ihope.
23:32:54 <RodgerTheGreat> I assumed with my solutions nonwrapping cells, but pikhq says they work.
23:34:09 <pikhq> Mine is a two-cell wrapping solution.
23:35:02 <pikhq> And, just for the hell of it, I rewrote it into BFM. . .
23:35:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I knew that was coming, sooner or later.
23:35:23 <pikhq> Well, duh.
23:35:42 <pikhq> Of course, I *could* be lazy and just use "brainfucktobfm.tcl". . .
23:35:47 <ihope> Now, is that "papa rent" or "pa parent"?
23:35:58 <pikhq> Produces inefficient BFM code, though.
23:36:01 <GregorR-W> I was thinking "pa parent"
23:36:25 <pikhq> And inefficient C code from bfmc. . .
23:36:50 <pikhq> Which, now that I've fixed the accidental pointer arithmetic issue, works quite nicely again.
23:36:51 <RodgerTheGreat> I'l be impressed when you can copy and paste the challenge description into BFM and then generate a solution that only takes 40.
23:37:19 * ihope does it in 48 commands
23:37:35 <ihope> Worse than Rodger but better than feesh :-)
23:37:52 <RodgerTheGreat> :D
23:38:08 <RodgerTheGreat> you probably did it like my first try- I had 48 originally.
23:38:11 * ihope rewrites certain things
23:39:23 <ihope> Down to 46.
23:39:36 <paparent> ihope: nice :P
23:39:43 <pikhq> Mine has two loops. . . :)
23:39:54 <ihope> Mine has three.
23:39:56 <ihope> Hmm...
23:40:02 <paparent> i've one
23:40:27 <calamari> ++++++(...)+++++.+.+.(...)+.+. ;)
23:40:45 * ihope gets confused by his code and scraps it, then starts over
23:40:52 <RodgerTheGreat> lol
23:40:56 <ihope> calamari: we have a winner!
23:41:10 <pikhq> calamari: That's 149 characters.
23:41:21 <pikhq> And valid Brainfuck Audio. :p
23:41:22 <calamari> pikhq: thanks, I was hoping someone would tell me
23:41:28 <calamari> haha true
23:41:29 <ihope> I thought it was 148.
23:41:37 <pikhq> 97 26 2*+pq
23:41:59 <ihope> ++++++(...)+++++ is 97 commands, no?
23:42:08 <pikhq> . . . Argh. It would be 148.
23:42:12 <pikhq> ihope: Yes.
23:42:13 <ihope> :-)
23:42:54 <pikhq> 97 26 2*1-+pq
23:43:12 <pikhq> That's the *right* solution. . .
23:43:40 <ihope> I can't say I understand your notation.
23:43:44 <ihope> Is it BFM?
23:44:01 <RodgerTheGreat> I think he's describing the cells.
23:44:25 <RodgerTheGreat> in which case it pretty much makes sense.
23:44:39 <pikhq> ihope: No, it's dc input.
23:44:55 <ihope> dc?
23:45:06 <pikhq> In infix notation, "97+26*2-1".
23:45:24 <pikhq> dc is a calculator on *n*x which uses RPN.
23:47:11 <ihope> "97 26 2*1-+pq" doesn't look reverse to me.
23:47:18 <ihope> Polish notation = suffix, no?
23:47:26 <Eidolos> Prefix
23:47:37 <Eidolos> (as in Lisp)
23:48:02 <ihope> "Polish notation, also known as prefix notation, is a form of notation for logic, arithmetic, and algebra." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_notation
23:48:09 <ihope> It's still suffix notation :-P
23:48:26 <Eidolos> Suffix is end, prefix is beginning..
23:48:42 <GregorR-W> Um ...
23:48:52 <GregorR-W> Polish notation is prefix notation, REVERSE polish notation is suffix notation.
23:49:10 <paparent> sorry guys, need to go now :P
23:49:12 <paparent> have fun !
23:49:15 <calamari> so 44 is the best so far?
23:49:20 <pikhq> calamari: 42.
23:49:28 <paparent> and lemme a PM if you got something
23:49:29 <pikhq> My solution. ;)
23:49:29 <calamari> pikhq: ok
23:51:52 <oerjan> argh. i have the implementer/designer of Aura under suspicion of not understanding C arrays start at index zero...
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23:56:27 <oerjan> actually i take that back, after some pondering.

2006-10-05:

00:03:20 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:03:56 <ihope> Aura?
00:03:59 <ihope> The language with no spec?
00:04:46 <oerjan> I'm writing a spec now, reverse engineering the interpreter
00:05:31 -!- RodgerTh1Great has changed nick to RodgerTheGreat.
00:06:42 <pikhq> oerjan: Yay!
00:07:10 <calamari> 40 chars!
00:07:37 <calamari> so how do I enter the contest?
00:09:08 <calamari> btw, is wrapping allowed?
00:09:37 <pikhq> calamari: Wrapping is allowed. . .
00:09:54 <pikhq> And just tell him the amount of chars (he'll ask for code once all is said and done).
00:10:02 <calamari> oh, in a /msg ?
00:10:10 <pikhq> Yeah.
00:13:36 * SimonRC goes
00:16:08 <ihope> Technically, "in a /msg" means very little :-P
00:16:15 <ihope> After all, you can /msg a channel.
00:16:28 <ihope> And doing so is identical to speaking in it "normally".
00:18:56 <calamari> ihope: it means to me I tell him on irc
00:19:11 <calamari> vs email, webpage, etc
00:19:15 <ihope> Oh.
00:19:22 <ihope> Well, it means little beyond IRC.
00:19:55 <calamari> since I don't use that sadistic irc client, it seems fine to me
00:20:42 <ihope> Sadistic?
00:21:35 <pikhq> RawIRC, no doubt.
00:22:36 <GregorR-W> ^^
00:23:14 <ihope> What does RawIRC have for "special" character input?
00:23:24 <GregorR-W> Whatever your terminal supports ;)
00:23:33 <ihope> It sucks.
00:23:38 <GregorR-W> Then not a lot :P
00:23:39 <ihope> :-P
00:23:48 <GregorR-W> Anyway, my workday is over, so bye :P
00:23:56 <calamari> cya gregor
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01:00:13 <oerjan> Now there is a description of Aura on the wiki.
01:06:40 <calamari> cmon.. someone challenge my 40.. that was my first design
01:10:41 <ihope> You know, it's a bad idea to write esoteric programming languages without the specs.
01:11:04 <ihope> C interpreters usually have limited memory, since programmers are lazy.
01:15:57 <oerjan> well, in the case of Aura the limit doesn't make much difference.
01:16:33 <oerjan> uh, i mean...
01:17:07 <oerjan> it is pretty obvious how to remove it.
01:17:25 <oerjan> the buggy boundary conditions are another matter.
01:19:06 <oerjan> hm, global C arrays are initialized to zero, aren't they?
01:19:38 <oerjan> and the a[5000] is likely to be just before the f[5000] array.
01:20:47 <oerjan> so it is probable, but not guaranteed, that the program memory will be surrounded by an amount of zero bytes.
01:29:31 <oerjan> hm. an aura program of the form 4 4 6 (mod 8) should then end up creating a trail of 6's out of the program.
01:33:49 <oerjan> yep, DDF seems to work.
01:36:10 <ihope> DDF?
01:36:13 <ihope> Double Data Flow?
01:36:40 <oerjan> no, the string "DDF" as an Aura program. (no trailing newline)
01:36:54 <ihope> Oh.
01:37:05 <oerjan> although i forgot about the automatic null at the end, but it still works.
01:38:20 <oerjan> actually 446 should work as well.
01:45:41 <ihope> How cute.
01:52:47 <oerjan> now, 443 should allow some program input to fill memory.
01:56:44 <ihope> So I'm interpreting an Aura program by hand, and I need a character of input.
02:00:42 <oerjan> if it's the one i suggested then i am trying out 3333477
02:00:50 <oerjan> (as input)
02:01:43 <ihope> Hmm...
02:01:56 * ihope runs that one instead
02:07:05 <oerjan> hm, now i wonder if it is actually possible to escape from the left side of the program
02:07:40 <oerjan> it would require replacing the null at program end with something == 4 (mod 8)
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02:16:21 <oerjan> hm. 0643, with input 04.
02:18:48 <oerjan> the program stopped. probably not zeros to the left of the array memory?
02:40:19 <oerjan> hm. how to output a character == 4 (mod 8), several times
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03:25:08 <dbc> 38 characters.
03:25:23 <dbc> (second try.)
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03:26:18 <pikhq> How are you guys doing that?!?
03:26:32 * pikhq will be amazed if it gets below 26
03:27:41 <pikhq> Ah, well. Only on my second try.
03:27:51 <pikhq> I can always (try) to go lower. ;)
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04:28:47 <calamari> hi
04:28:57 <calamari> anyone top 40 yet?
04:29:41 <calamari> (reads) scrollback
04:29:48 <calamari> of course.. dbc
04:29:51 <calamari> hehe
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04:42:19 <pikhq> 'Lo.
04:42:36 <pikhq> And I'm curious how you got down to 40, calamari. . .
05:02:53 <calamari> pikhq: nothing too special actually
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05:07:58 <calamari> I might be able to get it down if I used wrapping.. dunno
05:08:04 <calamari> would have to write a program to see
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06:12:18 * Sgeo_ really needs to go to sleep in  -1:12 hours..
06:26:48 * Sgeo_ Mi devas dormi!
06:27:06 <Sgeo_> Mi devas dormi!
06:29:35 <Sgeo_> Mi estas dormando.
06:30:40 <Sgeo_> Gxis revido!
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11:59:23 <Keymaker> what brainfuck golf you people are talking about? where?!
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12:04:43 <oerjan> <RodgerTheGreat> the challenge: output the lowercase letters a through z
12:05:06 <Keymaker> a. i guess it hasn't been informed elsewhere than here, then?
12:05:22 <Keymaker> btw, oerjan, i updated the article how 446 is executed, if interested ;)
12:05:27 <oerjan> well it was here that i heard about it
12:05:39 <Keymaker> "here"?
12:05:51 <oerjan> this channel
12:06:03 <oerjan> <- golf
12:06:07 <Keymaker> aah
12:06:29 <Keymaker> i thought you talked about that aura article :)
12:06:31 <oerjan> well, aura too, you told about your new programs
12:06:56 <oerjan> so i went looking for the spec and there was none
12:07:00 <Keymaker> yeah
12:10:44 <oerjan> i am almost convinced it is impossible to write "Hello, World!", i don't see a way to get "ll" and my attempt yesterday for "o," failed although not conclusively
12:10:57 <Keymaker> yeah
12:11:04 <Keymaker> and space brings problems too
12:11:29 <oerjan> the only good part is there are no 3 (mod 8) in there, so at least you avoid input
12:12:16 <Keymaker> not sure, but i'd think a program that outputs the same character infinite times is impossible as well
12:12:20 <oerjan> space is 0, which is tricky but not impossible.
12:12:23 <Keymaker> i've been trying to make that, but no success
12:12:47 <Keymaker> i couldn't get it working -- i had the next character 160, but it seems the interpreter doesn't read it in :(
12:12:49 <oerjan> 32, 5*32
12:12:53 <Keymaker> at least my didn't
12:12:58 <oerjan> oh?
12:13:05 <Keymaker> yeah. can you get it working?
12:14:13 <oerjan> i thought every character could be read in except 0
12:14:31 <oerjan> are you using the interpreter referenced from the wiki?
12:14:35 <Keymaker> yeah, i am
12:17:29 <Keymaker> yeah, just tried again, just in case, and the interpreter seems to quit reading when it encounters that 160
12:18:55 <oerjan> aha!
12:19:00 <Keymaker> hm?
12:19:18 <oerjan> it may use signed chars, so the > 0 test means < 128
12:19:44 <oerjan> not portable
12:21:55 <oerjan> and if it didn't it would _never_ stop, since it couldn't recognize EOF. unless you put an actual NUL there.
12:22:45 <Keymaker> ah, yea. so eof is 255 in this?
12:23:20 <oerjan> most likely. technically EOF does not fit in char.
12:23:24 <Keymaker> yeah
12:24:13 <oerjan> the hard thing about fixing the interpreter is knowing what are bugs and what are features
12:24:54 <Keymaker> yeah. however, what are bugs in there (in your opinion), if any?
12:25:15 * SimonRC reads up
12:25:20 <oerjan> the memory accesses outside the program
12:25:42 <Keymaker> i think that's a feature
12:25:48 <oerjan> but it might be reasonable to embed in NULs
12:26:05 <oerjan> well, but it is not well-defined as it is
12:26:21 <Keymaker> heh, indeed, as it isn't defined at all :)
12:27:10 <oerjan> and the wrapping was probably not meant to skip the first instruction at the other end
12:28:08 <Keymaker> well, you can't go to the first instruction (byte 0), unless you're travelling to left
12:28:17 <oerjan> so take the interpreter for what it is, but what about the char sign issues
12:28:36 <oerjan> i know
12:29:46 <oerjan> perhaps the actual intention was for the program to form a circle
12:30:12 <Keymaker> that'd make "sense"
12:30:23 <Keymaker> however it's quite nice bug if it is a bug, to allow that infinite increasing :)
12:30:53 <oerjan> there are just so many things in the interpreter that could be just off-by-one errors
12:31:04 <oerjan> yes
12:31:22 <Keymaker> yeah, for example that the program always starts at 2 instead of 1, doesn't make much sense
12:31:56 <Keymaker> i mean why the ip is initially 1?
12:32:15 <oerjan> yes. it "should" be 0, but two off-by-one errors change it
12:32:54 <Keymaker> perhaps the best could've been e-mail the author, which i never tried :)
12:33:10 <oerjan> as i said yesterday it could seem like the implementer didn't know C arrays index from 0
12:33:29 <Keymaker> can be
12:35:41 <oerjan> perhaps a "cleaned-up" dialect is in order
12:36:08 <oerjan> of course, it might actually turn out to be _less_ powerful
12:36:25 <Keymaker> how that's even possible? :D hehe
12:36:48 <oerjan> because there would be no special behavior at the edges.
12:36:58 <oerjan> just a uniform ring
12:37:02 <Keymaker> i was just joking..
12:38:19 <oerjan> oh, and we could make the cells be unbounded integers
12:39:15 <Keymaker> hmm. and what about the instruction set?
12:39:53 <oerjan> instruction set: the same. it would be just a removal of bugs and needless limitations
12:40:06 <Keymaker> i see
12:40:41 <Keymaker> do you think that'd allow making more complex programs? i guess not
12:41:20 * SimonRC tihnks that BF golf should really be in ##brainfuck 
12:42:31 <Keymaker> what about making a 9th instruction that "jumps forward x bytes"? and x is the value of that byte?
12:44:25 <wooby> hi
12:44:29 <Keymaker> hey
12:45:35 <wooby> whats crackin
12:51:00 <oerjan> keymaker: that might help some
12:51:21 <oerjan> simonRC: i thought maybe that's where the golf started?
12:52:27 <wooby> anyone know where i might get bfbasic 1.4? sourceforge isn't cooperating
12:52:37 <Keymaker> 39 on my second try.
13:00:04 <Keymaker> can the array wrap?
13:19:12 <oerjan> i am adding something about portability to the aura page. basically only bytes 1-127, except for a single 0 at the end.
13:19:23 <Keymaker> ok
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13:20:18 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal.
13:20:39 <oerjan> Jó napot
13:21:34 <Asztal> Jó napot kívanok :)
13:21:41 <Asztal> á
13:22:15 <oerjan> btw my hungarian doesn't go very much further than that :)
13:23:33 <Asztal> me neither, I'm english
13:23:39 <Asztal> :D
13:24:18 <oerjan> oh. but your nick is hungarian right?
13:25:26 <Asztal> yes
13:33:10 <oerjan> could someone confirm whether global C arrays are zero initialized?
13:33:36 <Keymaker> i think yes
13:33:49 <Keymaker> at least that's what i've always assumed in my programs :)
13:34:19 <Keymaker> and i think i've asked here the same, and got "yes" as reply
13:34:55 <oerjan> right, so that clarifies your point in the Aura page
13:35:19 <Keymaker> yea
13:36:10 <pikhq> wooby: Calamari's website.
13:37:01 <oerjan> i think i'll change 0-terminated to 0-padded, then
13:37:05 <Keymaker> http://kidsquid.com/old/compilers/bfbasic/index.html
13:37:11 <Keymaker> ok
13:37:48 <pikhq> And now I must insist on shamelessly whoring BFM. http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bfm.html
13:37:52 <Asztal> int x[10000] = {0};
13:37:56 <Asztal> would make sure :P
13:46:25 <SimonRC> pikhq: erm 404?
13:49:08 <oerjan> wait a moment. it must be "zero-terminated" to explain the wrapping
13:50:23 <pikhq> SimonRC: http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/esoteric.html Sorry.
14:08:10 <Keymaker> 38.
14:08:25 <Keymaker> when does the golf end?
14:10:27 <Keymaker> and here's its md5: 8b0811ef2088e5998e0994435bc55f9d
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14:26:14 <SimonRC> Keymaker: how untrusting you are
14:26:32 <Keymaker> hm? :)
14:26:37 <Keymaker> and who is running the competition?!
14:26:47 <Keymaker> i'm confused! is it rodgerthegreat?
14:26:57 <Keymaker> or paparent?
14:27:30 <paparent> hey :)
14:27:33 <paparent> it's me
14:27:39 <oerjan> you seem to be assuming there is actually some organization here
14:27:47 <Keymaker> yeah :)
14:27:54 <oerjan> you might be rigth, of course
14:28:04 <oerjan> but then you might not
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15:42:51 <|wez|> someone here who can help me integrate a while interation into MonkeyCode? I cant figure out how I can do it =\
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16:54:09 <Cymor> Hi
16:54:29 <Cymor> I'm trying to figure out what language a program was written in.
17:01:25 <sekhmet> Cymor: Were you hoping that everyone would just hazard a guess?
17:01:35 <sekhmet> Cymor: Pascal!
17:01:53 <Cymor> Really?
17:01:59 <sekhmet> Yes, I'm sure of it
17:02:15 <Cymor> cool.
17:02:54 <Cymor> I've never learned Pascal.
17:04:26 <Cymor> sekhmet: What's your favorite esoteric language?
17:05:54 <sekhmet> If I had to pick one, I still have a deep fondness for Shakespeare
17:07:21 <sekhmet> Though I'm only a very casual esoteric-language appreciator, so my actual experience in the field is quite light
17:09:31 <Cymor> ah
17:09:50 <Cymor> I've always been a fan of ASM, but it's not that esoteric.
17:10:07 <Asztal> I'm a Befunge fan
17:13:04 <|wez|> Johoo MonkeyCode Have now a working "while interation" =)
17:22:34 -!- calamari has joined.
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17:39:12 * pikhq wonders how to make his code shorter
17:40:16 <pikhq> I'm really having difficulty getting it below 42. . . :/
17:40:17 <Asztal> use a smaller font
17:41:03 <pikhq> Smaller character count.
17:41:36 <Asztal> Yeah I knew, but I felt it was obligatory :)
17:41:36 <pikhq> Unless I can find a smaller, wrapping way of getting 25 in a cell, of course. . .
17:44:56 -!- Cymor has left (?).
17:59:43 <calamari> found a 41 as well
18:03:13 <calamari> yay, 39
18:03:26 <calamari> still doesn't meat dbc's 38 tho
18:03:33 <calamari> lol.. beat
18:29:53 <|wez|> somebody who can help me whit this code? http://rafb.net/paste/results/PtzWEi85.html
18:30:06 <lament> No.
18:30:20 <|wez|> ok
18:31:05 <lament> also
18:31:25 <lament> that's some bizarre language i don't understand
18:31:32 <lament> seems like C++, eek
18:32:15 <calamari> comparing a var to a string. . does c++ do that for you?
18:32:28 <lament> i was wondering that too
18:36:28 <|wez|> every thing exept "else if(temp=="kak.ook.kok")BinFile.put (OP_ADD_TO_LOOPREG);" works perfectly
18:37:12 <|wez|> and yes c++ lets you compare a string var with a string
18:38:41 <Asztal> std::string provides the overloads :)
18:42:20 <Asztal> if we're just posting code, http://rafb.net/paste/results/1wTfRt53.html :)
18:47:54 <Asztal> temp _is_ an std::string, right?
18:48:05 * pikhq just found a 40-char version. . .
18:51:27 <pikhq> VICTORY!!
18:51:31 <pikhq> . . . 38 chars.
18:51:56 <lament> 1 char!
18:52:52 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
18:53:17 * pikhq is now tied for first place
18:53:19 <pikhq> :D
18:54:56 -!- feesh has joined.
18:55:04 <feesh> RodgerTheGreat just said that you all suck at basic :O
18:55:52 <GregorR-L> You can define that in one of two ways.  Either:
18:56:04 <GregorR-L> 1) Nobody sucks at BASIC, because a trained monkey can harness its entire power.
18:56:05 <GregorR-L> or
18:56:05 <RodgerTheGreat> feesh: not what I said.
18:56:22 <GregorR-L> 2) Everybody sucks at BASIC, because it's a worthless language and you can't (or at least shouldn't) write anything useful in it.
18:56:44 <feesh> we'll I guess it wasn't exactly as I said it
18:57:02 <feesh> but he claims dominance over the basic language and no one in here could beat him :O
18:57:05 <RodgerTheGreat> I said that I may not be as good with BF as some people here, but I'm by far better with a particular obscure flavor of basic- Cbaspad.
18:57:27 <RodgerTheGreat> cbaspad is in some ways nearly an esolang.
18:57:31 <GregorR-L> You probably are, but that's no feat :P
18:57:33 <feesh> will no one rise to the challenge? A challenge with no consequences
18:57:38 <GregorR-L> Nore anything to be proud of ;)
18:58:28 <RodgerTheGreat> haha- I'd reserve judgement on that until you've played with the language, GregorR-L.
18:58:53 <feesh> RodgerTheGreat has made a 3d engine in it
18:58:59 <feesh> not seen many 3D engines in basic myself
18:59:00 <GregorR-L> If it's a deriv of BASIC, it's worthless :)
18:59:14 <GregorR-L> Just because it's Turing Complete doesn't mean it's not worthless ;)
18:59:22 <feesh> sheesh
18:59:26 <feesh> everyone is with that turing jive
18:59:41 -!- lament has set topic: the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - for brainfuck-specific discussion, go to ##brainfuck - competition: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/2006.
18:59:52 <RodgerTheGreat> I suppose having inline assembly capabilities makes a language useless, eh?
19:00:13 <GregorR-L> If that language is BASIC, definitely.  Doesn't it have variants for its data type?  So it doesn't really map well.
19:00:36 <calamari> I used asm with basic.. works fine
19:01:17 <RodgerTheGreat> in my book, any language that can do a JSR to an arbitrary location in memory is powerful.
19:02:01 <feesh> does anyone reckon they could out put the lowercase alphabet using bf in under 38 characters, without using an input
19:02:24 <calamari> no, I think 38 is it
19:02:57 <GregorR-L> !help
19:03:01 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
19:03:03 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
19:03:07 <GregorR-L> ^ Show me one 8-D
19:03:24 <feesh> haha "pbrain"
19:03:31 <feesh> linguine
19:03:36 <calamari> GregorR: show you one what?
19:03:38 <feesh> man I would learn those just to say I've used them
19:03:42 <Asztal> Did anyone try !bf_txtgen abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz? Perhaps it's intelligent
19:03:54 <calamari> Asztal: lol
19:03:55 <GregorR-L> Asztal: I'd download the real one to try that :)
19:03:57 <feesh> I heard the best it came up with was something around 200
19:04:21 <RodgerTheGreat> I heard it made one that was 118...
19:04:38 <feesh> I heard I can be an inaccurate source of information
19:05:10 <calamari> whatever happened to jix's text gen ?
19:05:26 -!- jix has joined.
19:05:41 <calamari> okay thats just freaky :)
19:05:42 <RodgerTheGreat> heh.
19:05:57 <RodgerTheGreat> jix: [2:03pm] calamari: whatever happened to jix's text gen ?
19:06:09 -!- int-e has joined.
19:06:34 <pikhq> *echm*
19:06:36 <pikhq> I WIN!!!
19:06:40 * pikhq has hit 36
19:06:43 <calamari> wow
19:06:49 <GregorR-L> jix: <RodgerTheGreat> jix: [2:03pm] calamari: whatever happened to jix's text gen ?
19:07:12 <RodgerTheGreat> jix: [2:04pm] GregorR-L: jix: <RodgerTheGreat> jix: [2:03pm] calamari: whatever happened to jix's text gen ?
19:07:17 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: bullshit.
19:07:19 <pikhq> Err. . .
19:07:22 <pikhq> Sorry. That's 35.
19:07:26 <RodgerTheGreat> ...
19:07:29 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I assure you, I hit 35.
19:07:30 <GregorR-L> pikhq: !bf8 it
19:07:39 * calamari can't wait to see this
19:07:39 <jix> someone called us idiots!
19:07:51 <feesh> it is I
19:07:52 <feesh> muahaha
19:08:01 <jix> my textgen is stored on my backup disk is written in lisp and anyone except me wont be able to run it!
19:08:14 <calamari> pikhq: just curious.. wrapping or not wrapping?
19:08:20 <GregorR-L> clog: <RodgerTheGreat> jix: [2:04pm] GregorR-L: jix: <RodgerTheGreat> jix: [2:03pm] calamari: whatever happened to jix's text gen ?
19:08:23 <feesh> jix: double negative
19:08:24 <pikhq> paparent: Let me know when you call the contest "done", so I can feel free to show the code without giving away clues to others.
19:08:32 <pikhq> calamari: Wrapping.
19:08:42 <calamari> pikhq: nice
19:08:54 <feesh> I did it in 24 :(
19:08:59 <feesh> using input though
19:09:01 <RodgerTheGreat> lol
19:09:04 <feesh> then I was told you can't use input
19:09:11 <RodgerTheGreat> ,[.,]
19:09:30 <feesh> why not just
19:09:31 <calamari> RodgerTheGreat: need a way to quit there
19:09:32 <feesh> [,.]
19:09:44 <calamari> feesh: because the loop wont be entered
19:09:52 <feesh> :|
19:09:54 <feesh> fiendish
19:09:57 <feesh> don't tell me
19:09:57 <RodgerTheGreat> calamari: I assume 0 on EOF
19:10:02 <feesh> because they start at 0
19:10:22 <feesh> should have do whilst loops <: (
19:10:26 <calamari> RodgerTheGreat: I see
19:10:35 <feesh> {,.}
19:10:39 -!- int-e has quit (Client Quit).
19:10:43 -!- int-e has joined.
19:10:51 * feesh starts off fbf
19:10:57 -!- int-e has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:11:36 <calamari> oh no.. another bf derivative?
19:11:51 <feesh> so bleedining many of them
19:12:15 <lament> calamari: you're talking about |wez|'s thing?
19:12:15 <feesh> meh I'm content with none
19:12:27 <calamari> pikhq: you should be proud.. pretty tough to beat dbc :)
19:12:36 <RodgerTheGreat> feesh: it *is* a while loop, when you think about it.
19:12:40 <calamari> lament: * feesh starts off fbf
19:12:44 <paparent> pikhq: i updated the page :P
19:12:47 <feesh> RodgerTheGreat: yeah
19:12:48 <feesh> ...
19:12:49 <lament> oh
19:12:50 <feesh> not a do ... while
19:12:54 <paparent> nice tho :P
19:13:13 <RodgerTheGreat> kinda a while...do while loop, actually.
19:13:16 <paparent> should I wait, or we could end the challenge soon ..
19:13:23 <feesh> RodgerTheGreat: nope... just a do while
19:13:25 <paparent> dunno if 35 can be beaten :P
19:13:29 * lament makes a brainfuck derivative, replacing the symbols with 12345678
19:13:31 <lament> woohoo a new language!
19:13:36 <feesh> haha
19:13:41 * RodgerTheGreat pounds his head against a wall.
19:13:45 * calamari notices a distinct lack of text on that page
19:14:35 <feesh> int i = 0; do { i++; } while(i!=0);
19:14:45 <feesh> you accept that that is just a do and a while
19:14:48 <feesh> no while, do while :|
19:15:35 <calamari> was it supposed to be:  http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/2006  or was there more?
19:16:04 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Join #egobot - I'm not in the competition and can verify that it's really 35 (and #egobot is +i )
19:16:56 <calamari> for the record: I don't doubt pikhq's claim of 35
19:17:35 <paparent> Guys: Gonna stop the BF Golf at 15:00 gmt-5, some people has 35 bytes now :) That was the first challenge, just for fun. I gonna work on a more official one with some more advance feature and maybe teams :P If anyone interrested to do some challenge (Invent one) well, go ahead, and soon i'll have a website for that to submit challenge ideas
19:18:27 <calamari> hmm, teams sounds interesting... has that been done before?
19:18:49 <RodgerTheGreat> I think it could make it a great deal more fun.
19:19:10 <RodgerTheGreat> less cutthroat, at least.
19:19:39 <GregorR-L> Cutthroat is good!
19:20:06 <RodgerTheGreat> I somehow knew gregor would say that.
19:20:10 <GregorR-L> 8-D
19:20:18 * GregorR-L cuts RodgerTheGreat's throat.
19:20:39 <RodgerTheGreat> hahaha! fool. I don't keep my veins there anymore.
19:20:48 <GregorR-L> Nor your windpipe?
19:20:53 <RodgerTheGreat> nope
19:20:58 <feesh> he uses another orifice :O?
19:21:02 * GregorR-L shakes his fist.
19:21:07 <RodgerTheGreat> my throat is mainly for decorative purposes.
19:21:21 <GregorR-L> Not now that I slashed it up!
19:21:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I consider it modern art.
19:21:50 <GregorR-L> *snaps*
19:22:49 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
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19:54:50 -!- oerjan has set topic: the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - for brainfuck-specific discussion, go to ##brainfuck - competition: http://esolangs.org/wiki/2006_Esolang_Contest.
20:00:07 <SimonRC> seen on Slashdot: "I like caving, and I have grown a moustache the same width as my body to stop me from getting trapped in narrow caves."
20:00:11 <SimonRC> lol
20:01:05 <oerjan> that moustache's width wouldn't be its weirdest property
20:01:28 <oerjan> if it really can stop him from getting trapped
20:03:04 <SimonRC> Nonono, the moustache is used to sense the width of passages.
20:03:22 <oerjan> so he is a cat too? :)
20:04:49 <paparent> Brainfuck Golf #1 is done now.. You can PM your solution :P congrats to pikhq !!
20:05:12 <lament> #1?
20:05:42 <oerjan> i think there have been others before, in ancient times
20:05:57 <lament> i suspected as much
20:06:21 <int-e> there were at least 3
20:07:39 <oerjan> can we see the winning solution?
20:14:30 <paparent> well, have to wait to ppl send it to me ...
20:14:41 <paparent> pikhq doesn't seem to be there
20:25:23 <|wez|> there, now MonkeyCode is Turing-complete...I hope
20:31:36 <oerjan> optimist!
20:32:40 <|wez|> yes, I know I am =)
20:32:55 <lament> i used to be turing-complete
20:32:59 <lament> then i sold my loops
20:33:12 <paparent> You can now post some challenge ideas on http://paparent.nonlogic.org/bfgolf/
20:33:24 <|wez|> always look on the bright side of life
20:40:45 <lament> Fatal error: Maximum execution time of 30 seconds exceeded in /home/paparent/htdocs/html/inc/bfl.php on line 91
20:40:52 <lament> well, that's good to know.
20:41:40 <lament> Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 16777216 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 35 bytes) in
20:41:45 <lament> well, that's also good to know.
20:44:19 <paparent> lament: lol... first was because infinite loop
20:51:07 -!- Sgeo has joined.
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22:12:02 <SimonRC> <snork>  http://thedailywtf.com/forums/thread/93811.aspx
22:19:18 <dbc> paparent did you get my message that time?
22:42:38 <CakeProphet> !help
22:42:41 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
22:42:43 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
22:43:14 <CakeProphet> !bf_txtgen Elaine sux
22:43:29 <EgoBot> 104 ++++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++++>++++++++>+++<<<<-]>---.>.>+.++++++++.+++++.<-------.>>----.<+++++.++.+++. [195]
22:44:40 <oerjan> !bf8 ++++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++++>++++++++>+++<<<<-]>---.>.>+.++++++++.+++++.<-------.>>----.<+++++.++.+++.
22:44:43 <EgoBot> Elaine sux
22:46:45 <CakeProphet> !bf_txtgen Soulless Teat Grabbing Assassin
22:47:11 <EgoBot> 233 ++++++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>-.>-.++++++.>----..-------.<--..>>++++.<<<+.>>.----.<+.>>.<--------------------------.<--.<+++++++++++++.+..+++++++.>----.-------.>>.<------.<<++++++++++..>------.<..----------.+++++. [963]
22:52:09 <pikhq> . . . Great.
22:52:15 <pikhq> Just found out something. . .
22:52:28 <pikhq> My bfgolf code is, in fact, 31 characters.
22:52:34 <pikhq> I've been miscounting it. XD
22:52:45 * oerjan rolls his eyes
22:53:12 <pikhq> Seriously.
22:53:23 <pikhq> GregorR, if he's paying attention, can vouch for me.
22:53:25 <oerjan> you know you need to provide proof? i couldn't get below 38 myself
22:54:01 <pikhq> GregorR has seen my code & executed it.
22:54:02 <oerjan> btw the golf is over so you can reveal it
22:54:06 <pikhq> Oh.
22:54:10 <pikhq> Really?
22:55:25 <pikhq> Wow. Been done for 6 hours.
22:55:36 <pikhq> !bf8 --[+++++>->++<<]>----->[--<.+>]
22:55:39 <EgoBot> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
22:55:42 <pikhq> That's proof enough for me.
22:56:28 <pikhq> Err. Not been for 6 hours, but yeah. . . It's done.
22:56:29 <oerjan> *must* *understand* *this* *code*
22:57:03 <int-e> clever use of overflow
22:57:05 <oerjan> 3 hours
22:57:25 <pikhq> So, I was done *just* under time.
22:57:57 <pikhq> Again: if GregorR is listening, he can vouch for me (I showed it to him a few hours ago)
22:58:42 <oerjan> btw: http://paparent.nonlogic.org/bfgolf/
23:00:31 <CakeProphet> Hmm... so who can replicate the first page of the bible with the fewest characters in BF?
23:00:38 <CakeProphet> !bf_txtgen abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
23:00:46 <pikhq> Txtgen sucks.
23:00:54 * CakeProphet is just seeing what it looks like.
23:01:01 <EgoBot> 94 ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>><<<<-]>-.+.+.>++.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+. [633]
23:01:07 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Give sample text; we can't know what the first page is that you want.
23:01:07 <CakeProphet> haha
23:01:22 <int-e> >><< ...
23:01:40 * pikhq curses at wc
23:01:48 <int-e> ok, that is remarkably bad.
23:02:13 <pikhq> It's unique.
23:02:20 <int-e> (the txtgen code :)
23:02:23 <pikhq> I prefer my solution. ;)
23:04:46 -!- wooby_ has joined.
23:05:37 * SimonRC lols:  http://forums.programming-designs.com/viewtopic.php?id=102
23:06:21 <CakeProphet> In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the was without form, and voice; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said. Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night....
23:06:22 <CakeProphet> ...And the evening and the morning were the first day.  And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the...
23:06:23 <CakeProphet> ...second day.
23:06:25 <CakeProphet> That.
23:06:31 <pikhq> Evil.
23:06:40 -!- wooby_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:06:46 -!- wooby_ has joined.
23:06:48 <CakeProphet> er... I typoed it.
23:07:38 -!- wooby has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:08:12 <CakeProphet> In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said. Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And called the light Day, and the darkness he called...
23:08:14 <CakeProphet> ...Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were...
23:08:15 <CakeProphet> ...the second day.
23:08:17 <CakeProphet> There
23:08:38 <CakeProphet> ! bf_txt gen In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said. Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And called the light Day, and the darkness...
23:08:40 <CakeProphet> ...he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the...
23:08:41 <EgoBot> Huh?
23:08:41 <CakeProphet> ...morning were the second day.
23:08:43 <CakeProphet> haha
23:08:53 <SimonRC> !kick CakeProphet
23:08:56 <EgoBot> Huh?
23:09:01 <SimonRC> damn
23:09:06 <CakeProphet> !bf_txt gen In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said. Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And called the light Day, and the darkness...
23:09:09 <CakeProphet> ...he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the...
23:09:09 <EgoBot> Huh?
23:09:10 <CakeProphet> ...morning were the second day.
23:09:12 <CakeProphet> There
23:09:13 <CakeProphet> Argh
23:09:20 * CakeProphet tries again.
23:09:38 <CakeProphet> !bftxt_gen In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said. Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And called the light Day, and the darkness...
23:09:39 <CakeProphet> ...he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the...
23:09:41 <CakeProphet> ...morning were the second day.
23:09:41 <EgoBot> Huh?
23:09:47 <CakeProphet> !help
23:09:52 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
23:09:54 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
23:09:57 * pikhq kicks CakeProphet
23:10:04 <pikhq> STOP SPAMMING!!!
23:10:10 <oerjan> CakeProphet: if you don't stop flooding the channel, we shall have to make you do it by hand. in the original hebrew.
23:10:16 <SimonRC> !ps
23:10:19 <EgoBot> 2 SimonRC: ps
23:10:35 * CakeProphet was trying to get it to work. :(
23:11:25 <oerjan> EgoBot cannot make texts that long anyhow
23:11:56 * CakeProphet pmed it to egobot :D
23:13:42 * pikhq is now even more of a winner than he was. :)
23:15:12 <paparent> Yo all, im bck :P
23:15:13 <paparent> sorry
23:15:21 <CakeProphet> I think in the Bible instance... it would be easier to save each character to a sale... then move the arrays around to get the desired characters.
23:15:29 <paparent> I miss the solution from calamari and keymaster
23:16:09 <CakeProphet> Holy crap...
23:16:09 * pikhq demands an opinion on his solution
23:16:29 <CakeProphet> !bf ++++++++++++[>++>++>+++++++++>++++++<<<<-]>>>>+.<++.<++++++++.>++++++.>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.---.<<.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>.<<+++++.++.+++++.>>+++++++++.-----.<------.-------.<<++++++++.>>--------------------------------.>++++++.<<----------.<.>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++++.<+.----.>>+++++.<<<++++++++
23:16:34 <EgoBot> In the beginning God creat
23:16:36 <CakeProphet> h
23:16:38 <CakeProphet> a
23:16:41 <oerjan> i'm sorry, i'm busy laughing at simonRC's latest url
23:17:01 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
23:17:13 <pikhq> It be you!
23:17:31 * pikhq is proud of his *31* character solution, and hates wc with a passion
23:17:35 <CakeProphet> pikhq,  Any math involved? To you find the bit values for each character and then find multiples and common trends to work off of?
23:18:06 <CakeProphet> Now we just need a program that can produce the alphabet with less characters than the alphabet itself.
23:18:09 <pikhq> CakeProphet: What? For the lower-case alphabet bit?
23:18:12 <CakeProphet> proving BFs efficiency :D
23:18:15 <CakeProphet> pikhq,  Yeah
23:18:47 <oerjan> what's wrong with wc?
23:19:05 <oerjan> ah, not too good on punctuation maybe?
23:19:24 -!- ihope has joined.
23:20:02 <CakeProphet> !bf ,.
23:20:06 <pikhq> CakeProphet: In C:
23:20:07 <CakeProphet> !ps
23:20:07 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Did I have to teach you how to count? :P
23:20:10 <EgoBot> 2 CakeProphet: bf
23:20:11 <EgoBot> 3 CakeProphet: ps
23:20:25 <pikhq> char alphabet=97;
23:20:29 <CakeProphet> !i 2 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
23:20:30 <ihope> It's a CakeProphet!
23:20:31 <pikhq> char count=52;
23:20:32 <EgoBot> a
23:20:43 <CakeProphet> Oh...
23:20:48 <pikhq> (this is done by everything before the first loop).
23:20:55 <pikhq> while(count) {
23:20:58 <ihope> pikhq: a C program to output the letters "a" through "z"?
23:21:00 <pikhq> count-=2;
23:21:13 <pikhq> putchar(alphabet);
23:21:18 <pikhq> alphabet++;
23:21:18 <pikhq> }
23:21:21 <CakeProphet> !bf ,.>.>.>.>.>.
23:21:24 <CakeProphet> !i 2 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
23:21:25 <EgoBot> a
23:21:28 <pikhq> ihope: Psuedocode, to demonstrate to CakePropeht the logic.
23:21:37 <pikhq> CakeProphet: ,[,.]
23:21:42 <ihope> 'main = putStrLn ['a'..'z']' is much better :-P
23:21:58 <pikhq> ihope: But it's not the same logic as in my code.
23:22:10 <ihope> Hmm...
23:22:19 * CakeProphet thinks the cat program is the best way to produce the alphabet :D
23:22:23 <GregorR-L> !daemon cat bf +[,.[-]+]
23:22:27 <GregorR-L> !cat Foo
23:22:29 <pikhq> CakeProphet: No input was allowed
23:22:29 <EgoBot> Foo
23:22:42 <ihope> Maybe if your Haskell compiler is weird, it'll do that.
23:23:00 <CakeProphet> pikhq,  I would have listed out all the bit values for the characters... and found common trends to work with.
23:23:03 <oerjan> clever use of modulo arithmetic, i think i'll say so far
23:23:14 <pikhq> CakeProphet: And that was my common trend. . .
23:23:27 <pikhq> The bit value for each character is one plus the previous character. ;)
23:23:44 <CakeProphet> ...oh
23:24:07 -!- int-e has left (?).
23:24:14 <CakeProphet> pikhq,  Why the -- at the beginning?
23:24:43 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Sets array[0] to 254. . .
23:24:47 * paparent updated the page: http://paparent.nologic.org/bfgolf/ (miss some solution)
23:24:50 -!- wooby_ has quit.
23:24:56 <CakeProphet> pikhq,  Oh... didn't know that.
23:26:07 <pikhq> . . . I'm the only one to do something *clever*?
23:26:22 <pikhq> Wrapping was allowed. -_-'
23:27:02 <GregorR-L> Wrapping is for pansies ;)
23:27:57 <pikhq> My previous, 40 char solution. . .
23:28:01 <pikhq> --[+++++>-<]>-----<+++++[->.+.+.+.+.+<]>.
23:28:30 <oerjan> hm. anyone got below 38 without wrapping?
23:28:40 <CakeProphet> !bf [+++>->++<<]>----->[--<.+>]
23:28:45 <pikhq> I'm the only one below 38.
23:29:08 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Starting the code with a loop prevents the loop from running.
23:29:17 <CakeProphet> Oh yeah...
23:30:56 -!- ihope_ has quit (Connection timed out).
23:31:48 <CakeProphet> pikhq,  For some reason I keep thinking the  >-----<+++++  part could be simplified.
23:32:31 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Yeah. . . It's not part of my final code.
23:33:22 <oerjan> OK, now i understand the basic's of pikhq's solution: using (mod 256) arithmetic, the first loop initializes the tape to 0 102 52.  Clever.  The rest is easy.
23:35:34 <dbc> I doubt it's possible to get below 38 without wrapping.
23:35:47 <dbc> (BTW, congrats pikhq)
23:35:58 <pikhq> :)
23:37:16 <paparent> why i can't understand the logic behind pikhq's code :S
23:38:35 <oerjan> pikhq: did you use any computer search to get the offsets for the first loop?
23:39:10 <pikhq> oerjan: Nope.
23:39:44 <pikhq> Played around with the loop given on [[Brainfuck_constants]] for wrapping 97 for a bit, until I got 52 from it, as well.
23:39:49 -!- |wez| has quit.
23:47:25 <oerjan> hm...
23:53:28 <SimonRC> <CTCP>ACTION finds out what happens if you write sentances by committee:  "Voracious vexillologists believe that the Camelidophobic Esperanto International Association,which is obviously somewhat clever, but technically not very ethical or even subject to the Olympic games of all major holomorphic non-Euclidian institutions of value that are familiar to obsessive ZBBers and recalcitrant anthropomorphic grasshoppers, is concomitantly elucidated, although techni
23:54:59 <oerjan> that must be true because it said "holomorphic".
23:56:02 <ihope> Yay for truncation.
23:56:15 <ihope> "...is concomitantly elucidated, although techni"
23:58:57 <SimonRC> although
23:58:57 <SimonRC>           technically not zompist-approved, nor llamatically endorsed within notably ostentatious sub-committees by
23:59:23 <SimonRC>           supercentenarian arthropods, and ostensibly cannot rightly nor explicably discombobulate ..." etc, etcalthough
23:59:26 <SimonRC>           technically not zompist-approved, nor llamatically endorsed within notably ostentatious sub-committees by
23:59:29 <SimonRC>           supercentenarian arthropods, and ostensibly cannot rightly nor explicably discombobulate ..." etc, etcalthough
23:59:32 <SimonRC>           technically not zompist-approved, nor llamatically endorsed within notably ostentatious sub-committees by
23:59:35 <SimonRC>           supercentenarian arthropods, and ostensibly cannot rightly nor explicably discombobulate ..." etc, etc although
23:59:38 <SimonRC>           technically not zompist-approved, nor llamatically endorsed within notably ostentatious sub-committees by
23:59:41 <SimonRC>           supercentenarian arthropods, and ostensibly cannot rightly nor explicably discombobulate ..." etc, etc although
23:59:44 <SimonRC>           technically not zompist-approved, nor llamatically endorsed within notably ostentatious sub-committees by
23:59:47 <SimonRC>           supercentenarian arthropods, and ostensibly cannot rightly nor explicably discombobulate ..." etc, etc although
23:59:49 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament.
23:59:50 <SimonRC>           technically not zompist-approved, nor llamatically endorsed within notably ostentatious sub-committees by

2006-10-06:

00:00:00 -!- lament has set channel mode: -o lament.
00:00:07 <lament> ahem.
00:00:34 <pikhq> He doesn't understand "no flooding" too well.
00:00:59 <oerjan> but, how COULD you interrupt his .gertrude program!
00:01:14 <lament> i didn't
00:01:17 <lament> i'm sure it's still running
00:01:44 <oerjan> !help
00:01:46 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
00:01:49 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
00:02:32 <oerjan> absolutely no sign of .gertrude in EgoBot. how can that be, we wonder
00:03:09 <ihope> !ps d
00:03:12 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
00:03:14 <EgoBot> 2 GregorR-L: daemon cat bf
00:03:16 <EgoBot> 3 ihope: ps
00:03:59 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:09:03 <ihope> "Helen is expecting tomorrow to be a bad day."
00:09:14 <ihope> "Have the students who failed the exam take the supplementary."
00:09:19 <ihope> http://fun-with-words.com/ambiguous_garden_path.html
00:09:25 <ihope> Those sentences are supposedly confusing.
00:10:24 <pikhq> One has two meanings. . . The second of which is gramatically incorrect.
00:10:27 <ihope> Oh, and PLEASE don't put a comma between subject and predicate.
00:10:56 <ihope> "Helen is expecting tomorrow, in order to be a bad day."
00:11:08 <ihope> Is that how I'm supposed to misinterpret that?
00:11:15 <pikhq> Fine.
00:11:34 <pikhq> Both sentences have one gramatically correct parsing, and one incorrect one.
00:12:25 <ihope> I guess "Have the students who failed the exam" sounds like the beginning of a question.
00:14:47 <oerjan> !bf8 -[+++++>-->-<<]>----->+[--<.+>]
00:14:50 <EgoBot> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
00:15:26 <pikhq> "The horse raced past the barn fell". Is that supposed to parse correctly?
00:15:31 <pikhq> oerjan: Having fun, I take it?
00:15:53 <oerjan> yes, i found a slightly different solution, alas its the same length
00:16:24 <pikhq> Well, you proved that you understand the logic behind my code.
00:16:54 <ihope> pikhq: "The horse which was raced past the barn fell."
00:17:22 <CakeProphet> I wonder if it's possible to get rid of the "remainder" in that code.
00:17:32 <pikhq> ihope: Ah. . . So, it only parses when one adds more words. . .
00:17:33 <oerjan> by a curious coincidence you can get 102 and 51 with one less character
00:17:42 <CakeProphet> There's always a bit of trimming that needs to be done to get it to the right value.
00:17:48 <pikhq> oerjan: That doesn't help much. ;)
00:17:53 <ihope> pikhq: the "which was" is optional.
00:18:10 <pikhq> ihope: Doesn't parse here.
00:18:15 <Asztal> Parses for me
00:18:19 <pikhq> . . . Ah. Just parsed.
00:18:42 <pikhq> Next person to use English in that way gets a knife in the jugular.
00:19:13 <ihope> The best garden path sentences are "normal" ones with single words stuck on the end.
00:20:29 <lament> what?
00:21:00 <ihope> "The beautiful woman told a very exciting story coughed."
00:21:40 <lament> that doesn't make any sense.
00:22:05 <CakeProphet> The story was coughed.
00:22:08 <lament> no
00:22:09 <CakeProphet> it makes perfect sense.
00:22:11 <CakeProphet> yes
00:22:13 <lament> no, it doesn't parse
00:22:21 <Asztal> It does!
00:22:29 * CakeProphet parses it for you.
00:22:55 <lament> no, it doesn't parse
00:22:57 <Asztal> The "who was" before told is optional as usual
00:23:04 <ihope> Yep.
00:23:05 <pikhq> "The beautiful woman, told a very exciting story, coughed." is an alternate parsing.
00:23:19 <lament> oh, you're right, it does :)
00:24:52 <pikhq> I consider this stuff roughly equivalent to "while(*s++=*t++);".
00:25:29 <pikhq> Sure, it's valid C. Does it make me want to kill someone? YES.
00:25:54 <Asztal> Also creative use of the sequencing operator.
00:26:02 <oerjan> valid, not well-defined.
00:26:23 <ihope> pikhq: ay.
00:26:27 <oerjan> or wait...
00:26:41 <ihope> (Not to be confused with "aye".)
00:26:41 <Asztal> sure it's defined, because it's not using the same variable twice
00:26:56 <pikhq> It's valid, correct, and painful to understand. ;)
00:27:14 <ihope> What does it do, exactly?
00:27:40 <pikhq> Allow me to specify in more detail. . .
00:27:41 <ihope> Oh, and that's why Haskell separates computations from actions :-)
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00:27:46 <oerjan> btw what's a jugular
00:27:53 <SimonRC> lament: hey!
00:28:02 <pikhq> void strcpy(char *s, char *t) {while(*s++=*t++);}
00:28:31 <dbc> strcpy doesn't return void.
00:29:18 <GregorR-L> It does if you ignore what it returns ;)
00:31:35 <lament> SimonRC: hey!
00:32:01 <ihope> "You don't have permission to access /w/index.php on this server."
00:32:03 <ihope> ARGH!
00:32:26 <GregorR-L> Hahah.
00:36:10 <Asztal> Clearly the question here is, if a function returns a value and there is nobody to use it, does it make a sound?
00:36:38 <oerjan> only if you use `seq`
00:38:44 <CakeProphet> No.
00:39:00 <CakeProphet> unless it's like... specifically for audio-generating purposes.
00:39:03 <CakeProphet> then yes... it made a sound
00:39:12 <Asztal> the background noise on my headphones go up when the CPU usage goes up
00:39:23 <Asztal> So if it returns a really big struct, maybe it might?
00:41:04 <oerjan> eureka!
00:43:06 <oerjan> darn
00:43:19 <ihope> Who uses `seq`? I use seq.
00:44:30 <lament> hawt seqs
00:47:19 <ihope> 'Results 1 - 4 of about 498 for "O_O -_- O_O -_- O_O XD XD XD XD XD". (0.21 seconds)'
00:47:23 <ihope> Weird.
00:48:20 <Asztal> someone really used that?
00:48:42 * lament blushes
01:20:23 <dbc> I suggest either renumbering this last contest to 4, since brainfuck golf #0-3 took place elsewhere, or renaming it as something other than "golf".
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02:13:06 <calamari> hi
02:13:15 <calamari> my program was ++++++[>++++[>++++>+<<-]<-]>>>++[<+.>-]
02:14:31 <calamari> I have to say.. I also got the wrapping one, but I didn't think of dividing by two
02:19:10 <pikhq> Heheheh.
02:21:01 <pikhq> !bf8
02:21:03 <pikhq> !bf8 ++++++[>++++[>++++>+<<-]<-]>>>++[<+.>-]
02:21:05 <pikhq> XD
02:21:05 <EgoBot> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
02:21:24 <pikhq> !bf8 --[+++++>-<]>-----<+++++[->.+.+.+.+.+<]>.
02:21:27 <EgoBot> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
02:21:29 <pikhq> My 40 char solution. ;)
02:21:52 <pikhq> Err. 41. . .
02:29:02 <dbc> calamari, when you were at 40 were you ending it like >>+>++[<.+>-] ?
02:38:38 <calamari> yes
02:52:38 <Sgeo> In approx 8 min, kick me
02:53:30 <Sgeo> n/m
02:56:33 * Sgeo should NOT have used /amsg for that stuff
02:57:13 <calamari> someone kick Sgeo in 3 minutes
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06:20:39 <Keymaker> no time to stay long or i'll miss a bus..
06:20:48 <Keymaker> nice looking 35 byte code there! wow!
06:20:54 <Keymaker> and here was my code ++++++[>++++<-]>[>+>++++<<-]>++[>+.<-]
06:23:09 <Keymaker> anyways, bye.
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06:28:52 <Sgeo> Mi estas tre dormema. Mi estos dormanta. Gxis revido!
06:29:23 <Sgeo> (I am very sleepy. I am going to be sleeping. Until next time!)
06:29:51 <calamari> adios
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07:22:44 <dbc> Just for the record, I'm an American and I think our leaders are crooks.
07:24:17 <GregorR-L> Not sure anyone on here would go out of their way to deny that :P
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16:13:29 <Asztal> All this brainfuck golf stuff reminds me of a similar type of contest a friend and I had
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16:22:18 <Asztal> All I really remember is that all you do is control the flow of the program, it prints letters when it lands on them, and you can't use the same letter twice
16:22:44 <Asztal> Mississippi: http://rafb.net/paste/results/Zn5vXe12.html
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22:56:32 <calamari> hi
22:56:41 <GregorR-W> 'lo calamari
22:57:04 <calamari> how's it going Gregor?
22:57:20 <GregorR-W> Other than having no free time, fine :)
22:58:38 <calamari> but enough to chat on irc ;)
22:58:39 * pikhq has too much free time. :)
22:59:11 <GregorR-W> Enough to tab back and forth between doing work and talking.
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23:25:01 <RodgerTheGreat> what's everyone's favorite buzzword?
23:25:09 <RodgerTheGreat> or most hated?
23:25:17 <calamari> leverage
23:25:24 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, good one.
23:25:42 <RodgerTheGreat> I like "facilitate", because it doesn't imply actually *doing* anything.
23:25:55 <GregorR-W> Technology
23:26:05 <GregorR-W> But I work for Intel, so I'm biased towards that buzzword ;)
23:26:38 <RodgerTheGreat> heh
23:27:00 <oerjan> "empowerment" comes to mind
23:27:18 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah
23:27:35 <calamari> RodgerTheGreat: my officemate has a buzzword bingo game.. bring it to a meeting and try to win :)
23:28:10 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm working on making a web-based card generator with PHP.
23:28:14 <RodgerTheGreat> should be simple.
23:28:40 <oerjan> in norway that's known as "bullshit-bingo"
23:28:53 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
23:28:59 <RodgerTheGreat> ooh. "team player"
23:29:41 <calamari> one phrase I think is funny: "we're all professionals, so..."
23:32:37 <GregorR-W> "Intellectual Property"
23:33:08 <RodgerTheGreat> brilliance
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2006-10-07:

00:10:23 <CakeProphet> !bf_txtgen Lea
00:10:47 <EgoBot> 50 +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>><<<<-]>-.>++.----. [679]
00:37:04 <oerjan> !bf8 +++++++++++[>+++++++>++<<-]>-.[->+<]>+++.----.
00:37:07 <EgoBot> Lea
00:37:51 <GregorR-W> !bf64 ++.++.++.++.++.+[.>+.++.++.++.>+.+<.<-.]>.-..[-.>+.<].>+.++..-.--.-..
00:37:55 <EgoBot> 
00:38:12 <GregorR-W> :P
00:38:28 <oerjan> Huh?
00:38:34 <GregorR-W> !bf64 +++++++++++[.>+.++.++.++.>+.+<.<-.]>.-..[-.>+.<].>+.++..-.--.-..
00:38:38 <EgoBot> <CTCP><CTCP>
00:39:48 <oerjan> is that supposed to mean anything because i just see a couple of control characters
00:40:39 <GregorR-W> No, it's not - I just stuck random outputs into the code :P
00:41:02 <GregorR-W> !bf8 +++++++++++[>+++++++>++<<-]>.-.[->+<]>.+.+.+.-.-.-.-.
00:41:06 <EgoBot> MLbcdedcba
00:43:19 * pikhq gives up on his current bit of strings.bfm, and does the much simpler (but less efficient) method of writing it: Huge amounts of "+".
00:44:58 <GregorR-W> Was strings.bfm to depend on a constants.bfm, or just be magic? ^^
00:52:04 <pikhq> Being hand-coded by making the constant loops write to multiple locations in the array. . .
00:52:04 <pikhq> Difficult as hell.
00:52:04 <pikhq> I'd rather get the compiler working in full first.
00:52:04 <oerjan> !bf8 +++++[>+++++>-]>[>+++>++++<<-]>+.>+.----.
00:52:04 <EgoBot> realloc: Cannot allocate memory
00:52:04 <oerjan> whoops, a > should be <
00:52:04 <oerjan> !bf8 +++++[>+++++<-]>[>+++>++++<<-]>+.>+.----.
00:52:04 <EgoBot> Lea
00:52:04 <pikhq> I'll just make strings.simple.bfm a drop-in replacement for strings.bfm, so nothing will need to be changed from my efficient attempts. . .
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01:04:35 <oerjan> !bf8 +[+++++>->-->--<<<]>-[-->-<]>-.>-.----.
01:04:38 <EgoBot> 3™•
01:07:50 <oerjan> !bf8 +[----->->-->--<<<]>-[-->-<]>-.>-.----.
01:07:54 <EgoBot> Lea
01:08:42 <oerjan> interesting - just a single + in the wrapping version
01:10:01 <pikhq> Mmkay. . . I've got string0 done. . .
01:12:57 <oerjan> !bf8 +[+++++>+]>+[++>+++>++++<<]>+.>+.----.
01:13:10 <EgoBot> realloc: Cannot allocate memory
01:13:41 <oerjan> !bf8 +[+++++<+]>+[++>+++>++++<<]>+.>+.----.
01:14:12 <calamari> bbl
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01:19:51 <oerjan> !bf8 -[+++++>+<]>+[++>+++>++++<<]>+.>+.----.
01:19:54 <EgoBot> Lea
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01:29:09 <oerjan> !bf8 -[----->->->-<<<]>+[-->->--<<]>.>.----.
01:29:12 <EgoBot> fÿû
01:32:05 <oerjan> !bf8 +[----->->->-<<<]>-[-->->--<<]>.>.----.
01:32:08 <EgoBot> <CTCP>ý
01:32:14 <oerjan> argh
01:33:37 <oerjan> !bf8 -[----->->+>+<<<]>+[-->->--<<]>.>.----.
01:33:40 <EgoBot> Ìea
01:35:55 <oerjan> !bf8 -[----->->+>+<<<]>+[++>+>++<<]>.>.----.
01:35:58 <EgoBot> Lea
01:44:15 <pikhq> . . . Why. . .?
01:44:24 <oerjan> why what?
01:44:54 <oerjan> i'm just experimenting with wrapping on a word Calamari put into bf_txtgen
01:45:43 <oerjan> no, cakeprophet was it
01:46:11 <oerjan> or where you thinking of something more important?
01:46:19 <oerjan> *were
01:47:37 <pikhq> No. . . Why don't you use your own Brainfuck interpreter?
01:47:54 <pikhq> Egobfi, the one used by Egobot, is a very nice one.
01:48:03 <pikhq> Written by Gregor. ;)
01:48:29 <oerjan> i found a nice online debugger the other day but it does not wrap
01:54:27 <oerjan> !help
01:54:30 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
01:54:32 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
01:54:55 <oerjan> !help bf
01:54:56 <EgoBot> To use an interpreter: <interpreter> <program>  Note: <program> can be the actual program, an http:// URL, or a file:// URL which refers to my pseudofilesystem.
01:57:11 <pikhq> oerjan: Seriously, install Egobfi. . .
01:57:52 <pikhq> (if you're on Windows, install Cygwin to compile it. If on Mac, just open up a terminal to compile. If on a normal *NIX, do I need to explain the drill?)
02:00:05 <pikhq> http://esolangs.org/files/brainfuck/impl/egobf-0.7.1.tar.bz2
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15:20:48 <ihope> It's that one song, on that one game...
15:21:34 <ihope> And suddenly, I must leave.
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15:46:09 <SimonRC> ouch
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16:12:04 <oerjan> argh. is anyone here with special access to the wiki? i am trying to update Brainfuck_constants in one go, but i keep getting a server error
16:41:48 <oerjan> never mind, i managed to split it into four batches
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21:16:28 <pikhq> calamari: Know of any concise itoa implementations that I could use for BFM?
21:17:15 <calamari> suggest that for a bf gold
21:17:17 <calamari> golf
21:17:32 <calamari> I have written one but it is reported to be buggy
21:18:03 <pikhq> I'd suggest it for BF Golf, but I'd rather have it be a golf idea I can actually write. . . :p
21:18:18 * pikhq seriously can't think of where to start with it. . .
21:18:30 <pikhq> If I could, then I wouldn't be asking around, would I? :P
21:23:44 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.freebookzone.com/others/itoa.h ?
21:26:24 <calamari> oh.. haha
21:26:32 <RodgerTheGreat> that code is copyrighted, but you could re-engineer it to create a GPL-compliant implementation.
21:26:33 <calamari> I was thinking of something else (input -> decimal)
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21:26:59 <calamari> there must be a free one in glibc someplace
21:27:11 <RodgerTheGreat> wouldn't be surprised.
21:27:33 <calamari> or maybe uclibc would be better
21:27:38 <calamari> (smaller download)
21:27:46 * RodgerTheGreat shrugs
21:27:59 <pikhq> In Brainfuck. -_-'
21:28:26 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, you mean an already implemented version of itoa in brainfuck? Hm.
21:28:29 <pikhq> Unless you wish to argue that C code is usable in a macro language which compiles to Brainfuck?
21:28:43 <calamari> pikhq: how is the integer stored in bf?
21:28:54 <calamari> or are you imagining very large cells?
21:28:55 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I don't see anything about that C code that's *impossible* in bf...
21:29:13 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Except that I'm lazy.
21:29:22 <RodgerTheGreat> ...
21:29:26 <pikhq> calamari: A char.
21:29:46 <calamari> so 0-255 only?
21:29:54 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Although that's just a limiting factor in complexity of what *I* will write, not a limiting factor in the complexity of possible code. :p
21:30:04 <pikhq> calamari: Um, yeah. . . It's *Brainfuck*.
21:30:35 <calamari> pikhq: I know bf.. trust me :)  there are many variations and I do not know what your assumptions are
21:31:25 <pikhq> EOF=0 or no change, 30,000 char array with wrapping cells.
21:31:26 <SimonRC> does walking around while stressed help strenght?
21:31:32 <SimonRC> oops, W
21:31:34 <SimonRC> oops, WW
21:33:09 <pikhq> The *goal* is to have itoa.bfm in BFM's stdlibs. . .
21:34:14 <pikhq> Preferably one that uses a small amount of memory.
21:35:24 <calamari> do you have a routine that divides by 10?
21:35:47 <calamari> x % 10 = x - 10 * int(x / 10)
21:36:25 <pikhq> No, but I can no doubt come up with a quick macro for that.
21:36:45 <calamari> if you don't , I'm pretty sure there is one on my hd someplace
21:36:53 <calamari> do you understand the above equation ?
21:37:29 <pikhq> Yeah.
21:37:50 <calamari> I think that will give you everything you need
21:38:02 <pikhq> . . .
21:38:09 <calamari> it gives the digits in reverse order, but since there are only 3 it's not a big deal
21:38:22 * pikhq has a flash of insight and a feeling of stupidity for his previous attempts
21:38:53 <calamari> for example: 123 / 10 = 12.3, int(12.3)=12 * 10=120, 123-120=3
21:51:01 <pikhq> Mmkay. . .
21:51:14 <pikhq> I've got a somewhat messy bit of code, but I think it should work. . .
21:54:31 <calamari> would be a good bf golf challenge.. you should suggest it
22:00:14 <SimonRC> I would have thought that a BF division algorithm would produce the remainder as a side effect.
22:01:27 <calamari> yeah
22:01:38 <calamari> good point
22:08:51 <SimonRC> I suspect that since we konw the divisor is 10, we can write something much more efficient than the normal division algorithm.
22:08:59 <calamari> yes
22:10:05 * pikhq curses at his code
22:10:12 <pikhq> Yeah. Not working. :'(
22:10:23 <calamari> http://rafb.net/paste/results/RSGCX338.html
22:10:38 <calamari> that is a divide by 10 algorithm.. I didn't write it
22:12:42 * SimonRC was imaginig something with cleverly-designed loops nested 10 deep.
22:14:41 <calamari> well, here is a divide by 2 algorithm that works with half of the numbers: [-->+<] mod it for the other half ;)
22:32:55 <jix> here is one that works for all numbers but requires some zeros around the number to devide: [-[->+>]<<]>[<<]>>
22:40:01 <pikhq> Here is one that works in Boolfuck: +[+>+<]>[<+>]
22:40:02 <pikhq> :p
22:41:23 <calamari> jix: throws away the remainder.. can it be saved?
22:41:32 <jix> calamari: yes
22:43:22 <jix> [-[->+>]<<]>>>[>+>]<<
22:43:28 <jix> but requires even more space
22:43:34 <jix> (that is zero)
22:43:47 <jix> but i guess there is place for optimizations on that aspect
22:44:54 <jix> oh and it fails with 1 as input
22:45:44 <jix> can easily be solved by prefixing it with ++ and postfixing it with -
22:45:50 <jix> (of course the code is nonwrapping)

2006-10-08:

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06:25:26 <calamari> I just discovered something .. the Linux terminal beep frequency and duration be set with escape sequences
06:33:38 <pikhq> I'm following your thought process from that, and am *very* scared.
07:17:18 <Sgeo> hms?
07:17:26 <Sgeo> OhwowI'mdelayed
07:17:39 <pikhq> Indeed.
07:17:44 <pikhq> I'm worse.
07:17:59 <pikhq> It's taken me at least a day to notice that somehow I'm an op in #gnu.
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13:06:36 <ihope> [10/4/2006 6:08 PM] <thermoplyae> Maybe computer engineering is the field for you
13:06:56 <ihope> The quote I've been looking for for the past 10 years.
13:07:01 <ihope> Okay, maybe less than that.
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13:36:57 <oerjan> bwahaha, my algorithm is not done yet. 255 down to 30 characters now
13:37:40 <ihope_> I can represent 255 with only 3 characters.
13:38:02 <oerjan> ahem. in non-wrapping brainfuck?
13:38:27 <ihope_> No.
14:03:25 <oerjan> bah. the "-wrap off" option to egobfi is just rubbish.
14:32:46 <pikhq> I can do 255 in one character (using wrapping). ;)
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14:38:25 <paparent> hi pikhq
14:38:33 <pikhq> 'Lo.
14:39:06 <paparent> what,s that with with the "255" lol
14:39:13 <pikhq> Damned if I know.
14:39:24 <paparent> 255 in 3 characters ... :S
14:39:48 * oerjan pouts
14:44:04 <pikhq> WTF is my computer doing?!?
14:44:18 <oerjan> achieving sentience
14:44:23 <pikhq> No. . .
14:44:28 <pikhq> Already did that.
14:44:34 <pikhq> $ firefox
14:44:43 <pikhq> Does not respond to C-c or C-z.
14:44:50 <pikhq> $ killall -9 firefox-bin
14:44:55 <pikhq> Same with that.
14:44:58 <pikhq> $ top
14:45:00 <pikhq> And that.
14:45:18 <oerjan> is the power on? :)
14:45:28 <pikhq> I'm using it right now.
14:45:42 <oerjan> hm, good point
14:46:01 <pikhq> It's like it's decided that fork(); shouldn't be ran.
14:46:18 <oerjan> is it out of process space?
14:46:44 <pikhq> If it were, it would've had fork(); fail.
14:47:07 <pikhq> But fork(); doesn't seem to have really *done* anything at all.
14:48:11 <oerjan> use exec then :)
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19:38:11 * SimonRC grins insanely:   http://www.google.com/codesearch?q=+file:wp-config.php+username&sa=N
19:39:25 <kipple_> hah
19:40:28 <kipple_> one of the entries: http://www.hogasenborettslag.no/
19:40:34 <kipple_> :D
19:42:00 <kipple_> do I smell a lawsuit against google? ;)
19:42:06 <SimonRC> kipple_: can you read that?
19:42:16 <SimonRC> If so, what is the site about
19:43:34 <kipple_> it's a home page for an appartment complex
19:44:27 <kipple_> But I was referring to the english message from a friendly hacker
19:50:49 <RodgerTheGreat> that's really pretty hilarious
19:54:43 <SimonRC> yeah
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20:22:58 <SimonRC> 8-S  !!!  http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,,20542442-952,00.html
20:23:52 * SimonRC praises ΕΡΙΣ.
20:25:26 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
20:37:15 <ihope_> You can't do that because Σ isn't a real letter!
20:40:13 * SimonRC thwaps ihope_.
20:42:13 <SimonRC> Nowadays it would be Ε�ισ, instead.
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21:27:57 * pikhq *still* can't figure out how to get itoa in BFM :'(
21:31:10 <pikhq> Probably a bug in my mod macro. . . But still. . . :'(
21:33:24 <oerjan> pastebin?
21:34:13 <oerjan> or other URL
21:34:20 <pikhq> Just one question: Do you grok BFM? ;)
21:34:50 <oerjan> grok and grok, i thought i read the tcl the other day...
21:35:14 <oerjan> so i have a basic idea
21:35:20 <pikhq> Oh, right.
21:36:28 <pikhq> http://en.pastebin.ca/195098
21:37:22 <pikhq> The two macros in there were translated from the ones in BFC, BTW. . . Hopefully, I did the translation correctly.
21:39:10 <oerjan> hm... have all the included files been tested?
21:39:45 <pikhq> Um. . . Argh.
21:39:51 <pikhq> Not sure I ran the test suite. XD
21:42:36 <oerjan> um, what direction does copy x y z copy? and which is the temporary?
21:43:38 <pikhq> copy x y z copies x into y, user z as temp.
21:43:44 <pikhq> using
21:43:52 <pikhq> Maybe I should document stdlib a bit. . . XD
21:44:40 <oerjan> it would be nice with a standard order of output, input, temp arguments - subtract seems the other way
21:45:04 <pikhq> I thought I *had*. . .
21:45:15 <pikhq> I might want to look back through, though.
21:46:55 <oerjan> from the look of it booland is the same way as copy
21:47:22 <oerjan> assuming you don't want to overwrite what was just copied to :)
21:47:35 <pikhq> Maybe I just screwed up subvar. . .
21:47:58 <oerjan> actually mod itself is the same way as subtract
21:49:17 <oerjan> perhaps it would be worthwhile to introduce some inner delimiter in macros
21:49:59 <pikhq> Care to explain?
21:50:47 <oerjan> i mean if the syntax was copy v2 < tmp ; tmp1 then the direction would be obvious
21:51:51 <oerjan> eh, i mean copy v2 > tmp ; tmp1 of course
21:52:00 <pikhq> Hmm. . .
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21:52:15 <pikhq> Maybe change macro to take a few different arguments. . .
21:52:40 <pikhq> macro {input} {output} {temp} {code}
21:53:09 <pikhq> Err.
21:53:20 <pikhq> macro name {input} {output} {temp} {code}
21:53:30 <pikhq> That's actually a *very* good idea.
21:54:01 <pikhq> The trick, though, will just be rewriting current code.
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21:54:30 <oerjan> does booland preserve its arguments?
21:56:18 <oerjan> darn it, i need to read the included files
21:56:35 <pikhq> It's part of stdlib in BFM. . .
21:56:53 <pikhq> That, BTW, is what the ^ prefix on a sourced file indicates.
22:05:27 <oerjan> hm, set is not mentioned on the web page
22:05:54 <pikhq> It isn't? Weird.
22:06:18 <pikhq> set var num just sets the variable to 0 before running add.
22:13:00 <oerjan> i sense a couple of macros that could be added for efficiency
22:13:46 <oerjan> addmov and submov, which add and subtract without preserving their argument, thus needing only two
22:14:29 <oerjan> addmov can replace move more efficiently when the target is known to be zero
22:14:48 <pikhq> Working on getting your argument delimiter idea done first.
22:15:02 <pikhq> BTW, thank you for being the only person that's not me to care. :p
22:15:18 <oerjan> you're welcome :)
22:19:43 <oerjan> btw set doesn't need to be built in
22:23:12 <pikhq> Just a macro clear followed by add. . . I know. . .
22:23:21 <pikhq> It's just a bit cleaner builtin, IMO.
22:24:10 <pikhq> Mmkay. Got argument delimiters in bfm.tcl.
22:24:21 <oerjan> and clear doesn't need to be built in either :)
22:24:33 <pikhq> It wouldn't be. . .
22:24:39 <pikhq> It'd be in stdlib.
22:24:47 <pikhq> Like I said: just cleaner builtin.
22:25:03 <oerjan> how cleaner? the resulting brainfuck is the same
22:25:28 <pikhq> From the BFM side, it's cleaner.
22:25:44 <oerjan> you could have a prelude module, like in Haskell, which is automatically included
22:26:04 <pikhq> Either you get macro clear {var} {} {} {while var {subtract var 1}} or macro clear {var} {} {} {comment \[-\]}.
22:26:40 <oerjan> i mean the first, of course
22:28:45 <oerjan> the last would need a goto var, in any case
22:30:05 <pikhq> Ah, right.
22:30:16 <pikhq> And, it'd be dead on BFMC. ;)
22:30:39 <oerjan> i suppose on BFMC, set _would_ be cleaner
22:32:21 <SimonRC> BFM will never match the efficiency of human-generated code, alas.
22:32:45 <oerjan> checked move, copy, subvar, ok, although the last two could use addmov instead of move
22:33:22 <oerjan> sure it will, with the addition of addmov and submov :)
22:33:39 <oerjan> to avoid unnecessary clearing
22:34:42 <pikhq> SimonRC: Given that one can use BFM without any macros (and that this has a one-to-one correspondence with Brainfuck), you're wrong: it can be just as efficient as human-generated code.
22:35:12 <SimonRC> ok, point taken
22:35:20 <pikhq> Even more efficient if one uses BFMC (the stdlib macros have been designed as wrappers around C). ;)
22:36:07 <pikhq> oerjan: Or you could just do hand-expansion inside of those two macros. :p
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22:37:56 <oerjan> hm ... what we need is a way to remove unnecessary clearing
22:38:49 <oerjan> then move would be equivalent to addmov when used with a known temp=0
22:39:45 <pikhq> Pointless clearing just makes the code a bit longer; it *doesn't* increase execution time signifigantly. . .
22:45:31 <oerjan> hm, booland doesn't need temp0. you can use x instead.
22:45:59 <pikhq> . . . You're right.
22:46:35 <pikhq> Fixed.
22:46:36 <oerjan> and you can remove all but the last set temp1 0
22:46:53 <pikhq> Again: you're right.
22:47:40 <pikhq> Those were somewhat hastily written (as should be painfully obvious). . .
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22:54:16 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bfm.tar.bz2 has the current version (hot off the press).
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22:55:02 <oerjan> wait a moment, i think booland can be improved even more
22:55:19 <pikhq> One outstanding bug. . .
22:55:30 <pikhq> Need to put a COPYING file there, don't I? :p
22:57:17 <pikhq> oerjan: Just edit the new version, and hand me changes, and I'll be very, very happy. :)
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23:34:55 <oerjan> it seems to me that bfm lacks a clean way to break out of a loop without setting its var to zero - this makes it difficult to really optimize booland
23:35:29 <pikhq> That's because it's very low lev
23:35:31 <pikhq> el
23:35:50 <pikhq> It's a very simple process to convert from it to Brainfuck. . .
23:35:52 <oerjan> yes, but bf itself allows it by suitable use of >< commands
23:36:04 <pikhq> And you can do that. . .
23:36:23 <pikhq> With much difficulty, of course.
23:36:42 <oerjan> problem is i can make no assumption of where the variables are situated with respect to each other
23:37:21 <oerjan> and bfm does not give me away to skip from one to the other
23:37:39 <oerjan> *a way
23:37:54 <pikhq> That's the whole point behind right, left, and the variable current. . .
23:37:57 <oerjan> this is a feature request :)
23:38:10 <pikhq> . . . Oh. I forgot to bind goto into the slave interpreter, didn't I?
23:38:36 <oerjan> goto cannot use variables
23:38:58 <pikhq> Oh, dur.
23:39:12 <pikhq> Need to make that an actual command. :p
23:39:45 <oerjan> but there is another difficulty
23:39:51 <pikhq> Which is?
23:40:27 <oerjan> in order for goto to work at the end of a while block, it needs to suspend the while's own goto
23:41:04 <pikhq> It gets ugly to do that. . .
23:41:06 <pikhq> goto var
23:41:11 <pikhq> while current {
23:41:19 <CakeProphet> Goto would actually be useful if you could use variables.
23:41:22 <pikhq> /* code */
23:41:32 <pikhq> goto var2
23:41:33 <pikhq> }
23:42:00 <pikhq> CakeProphet: I just wrote _goto (which is bound as goto into the slave interpreter). . .
23:42:01 <oerjan> i forgot about while current, that should work
23:42:14 <CakeProphet> I'd imagine goto also gets messy when you start dealing with class and function defintions.
23:42:21 <pikhq> proc goto wasn't bound into the slave interpreter at all.
23:42:41 <pikhq> New tarball up.
23:43:02 <oerjan> no class and function definitions in bfm, fortunately :)
23:43:09 <CakeProphet> hmm... if there was a built-in function that returned the current line of code...
23:43:22 <CakeProphet> you could assign a variable to the current line of code... for later use in a goto command...
23:43:47 <pikhq> CakeProphet: It. Compiles. To. Brainfuck.
23:44:09 <CakeProphet> Okay.
23:44:33 <pikhq> It's more of a complex assembler than, say, C2BF. ;)
23:50:02 <oerjan> hm, i am not sure this works anyhow without placing variables precisely :(
23:50:14 <pikhq> What?
23:50:19 <pikhq> goto var
23:50:21 <pikhq> while var {
23:50:24 <pikhq> comment code here
23:50:35 <pikhq> goto var2;comment var2=0
23:50:37 <pikhq> }
23:50:53 * pikhq needs to use a better name than comment for comment blocks :p
23:51:11 <oerjan> my booland idea is essentially: set temp 0; goto x; while current { goto temp }
23:51:16 <Asztal> raw?
23:51:34 <pikhq> oerjan: That'd work. . .
23:52:36 <oerjan> except in order to synchronize back i need to know a relative move that works from both x and temp
23:53:32 <pikhq> Which it would.
23:54:09 <pikhq> The (equivalent) of BFM goto is called for every call into a builtin.
23:54:56 <oerjan> say if i knew that temp1 was to the right of x and temp2 to the right of temp
23:54:57 <pikhq> One could just as easily make BFM goto as "macro goto {var} {} {} {add var 0}".
23:55:36 <pikhq> You don't need to know that.
23:56:02 <pikhq> All you need to know is that you can goto x, goto temp1, and goto temp2.
23:56:04 <oerjan> i need a way to find out whether i have taken the while branch!
23:56:27 <pikhq> . . . Oh. Yeah, that could be a problem.
23:56:36 <pikhq> That's a problem in Brainfuck, though. ;)
23:57:01 <oerjan> not, if i could set temp1 0 and temp2 1 before, and do right 1 afterwards
23:57:37 <oerjan> then a new while current { ... } would only trigger if i was at temp2
23:58:19 <pikhq> That doesn't work at all when one has no clue where the different variables are. . . And the whole point of the macro system is to generalise code. . .

2006-10-09:

00:00:19 <oerjan> so then this method cannot be used, and any while can only be broken by fully zeroing its variable
00:01:09 <pikhq> Yes.
00:01:45 <pikhq> Anyone who needs to use something more efficient sure as hell isn't going to be using our macros, anyways; one can be much more efficient with hand-coding.
00:02:14 <oerjan> so SimonRC was right after all ;)
00:02:26 <pikhq> No, he's not.
00:02:51 <pikhq> Handcoding in BFM, without using our generalised macros, can be just as efficient. ;)
00:03:29 <oerjan> i think the problem could be fixed using arrays, though
00:04:00 <pikhq> Have you *seen* the code necessary for an array implementation in Brainfuck?
00:04:17 <oerjan> if x and temp were parts of arrays of length 2, then there would be enough positioning
00:04:40 <oerjan> i don't mean unbounded arrays, just a positioned array of predeclared variables
00:05:02 <pikhq> That just defeats the idea of generalising the code.
00:06:54 <oerjan> not necessarily, the macro would just work on a slightly different structure
00:07:23 <oerjan> so in a sense it wouldn't be a booland for single cells at all, but it could still be useful
00:08:00 <oerjan> anyhow, i suppose the current booland is well enough for when you do have single cells
00:08:17 <pikhq> It's good at what it does. ;)
00:09:19 <oerjan> any array based implementation would need moving to work for single cells, which defeats the purpose of avoid the zeroing out
00:09:39 <oerjan> *avoiding
00:11:05 <oerjan> anyhow, i got derailed while trying to understand your mod code, back to that
00:12:08 <pikhq> Hahah.
00:12:37 <pikhq> Might want to change it over to the current BFM build once you figure out why it doesn't work.
00:21:52 <oerjan> hm, do you consider it necessary to zero out temp variables that aren't used?
00:24:09 <oerjan> (on second thought, my idea to avoid that in one macro depends on the copy macro doing precisely that
00:24:13 <oerjan> )
00:24:51 <pikhq> Temp variables are sort-of supposed to be used. . .
00:25:03 <pikhq> If it's unused, then don'
00:25:10 <pikhq> t take the variable as an argument.
00:25:10 <pikhq> :p
00:25:53 <oerjan> what i mean is if the variable is sometimes used, but not always, like in divvar: temp1 and temp2
00:26:34 <oerjan> (if x is zero the while loop is never entered)
00:28:38 <pikhq> Ah.
00:29:05 <pikhq> Yeah, one should clear your temp variables before running loops. . .
00:29:44 <pikhq> Allows one to assume any temp variables are 0 after a macro call. ;)
00:30:05 <oerjan> exactly
00:30:37 <oerjan> although set temp 0 is wholly superfluous
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00:40:20 <graue> hello
00:40:27 <oerjan> hello
00:40:28 <pikhq> 'Lo.
01:11:15 <ihope> Do I smell a Wiki admin?
01:11:30 <ihope> Or is that just a Grue?
01:11:52 <pikhq> A graue.
01:11:58 * ihope nods
01:12:20 <ihope> Now, through some careful experimentation, I have figured out how a pencil sharpener works.
01:12:34 <ihope> As you know, outlets contain electricity.
01:12:46 <ihope> And as you know, electricity is a liquid at room temperature.
01:13:10 <oerjan> BZZT
01:13:43 -!- Arrogant has joined.
01:13:54 <ihope> Plugging in a pencil sharpener causes the electricity to flow through the wires, where some enzymes turn it into a chemical called PPS, or passive pencil sharpener.
01:14:13 <ihope> Also, pencils emit a chemical known simply as "pencil",
01:14:34 * pikhq wants some of what ihope's smoking
01:14:37 <pikhq> Must be some good shit.
01:14:46 <pikhq> :p
01:15:03 <ihope> How'd you guess what I was smoking?
01:15:08 <ihope> Um, anyway.
01:15:58 <ihope> The PPS reacts with the pencil to form a new chemical called APS, or active pencil sharpener.
01:16:22 <ihope> This reaction also emits a sound best described as a loud sort of whirring.
01:17:09 <ihope> Finally, the APS reacts with the pencil itself, causing some of the wood to evaporate.
01:17:25 <ihope> It does so in such a way to make the pencil sharp, for obvious reasons.
01:18:22 <ihope> Now, the pencil sharpener in my biology classroom is so good that the PPS is actually blowing out of the pencil sharpener, so that if you put a pencil too close to it, the pencil becomes sharpened.
01:19:05 * ihope bows
01:19:12 * ihope suddenly remembers his homework
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01:19:37 * oerjan is shocked!
01:20:16 <oerjan> all these years of advanced education and no one is telling me this!
01:21:07 <oerjan> instead of vainly trying to satisfy my curiosity i could have followed my true dream and become a fire constable
01:21:18 * oerjan sobs
01:24:40 * oerjan has satisfied himself that divvar works
01:25:08 <pikhq> I did the same much more simply.
01:25:26 <pikhq> I take it, though, that you're going through confirming that all of my macros are done well?
01:25:52 <pikhq> If so, let me just say that I greatly appreciate that.
01:25:57 <oerjan> just the pastebin left
01:26:03 <pikhq> Ah.
01:26:18 <pikhq> Still. . . :)
01:26:26 <oerjan> well, not all, only those included by that
01:26:49 <oerjan> although i suspect divvar is among the most complex...
01:26:59 <pikhq> It is *the* most complex.
01:27:43 <pikhq> copy works very, very simply.
01:28:19 <pikhq> >[-]>[-]<<[>+>+<<-]>[-<+>] is the code in full.
01:29:11 <oerjan> btw, when you use both div and mod it might usually be a good idea to combine them
01:29:18 <pikhq> Yeah.
01:29:35 <pikhq> I was *trying* to get the macro to work at all in the first place.
01:33:14 <pikhq> I've confirmed one thing: the bug is in my mod macro.
01:33:31 <pikhq> Unless you wish to argue that 25 % 50=233, that is.
01:37:16 <fizzie> "For some values of %."
01:37:25 <pikhq> fizzie: XD
01:37:27 <oerjan> i have not analyzed it yet, but i have a sneaking feeling...
01:37:49 <oerjan> did you get the booland arguments in the right order?
01:37:56 <pikhq> oerjan: My "analysis" method is "call the macro with arguments which we know the appropriate result for". ;)
01:38:19 <pikhq> Indeed, I did.
01:38:55 <oerjan> so the second argument is the result?
01:39:10 <oerjan> in the mod macro definition i mean
01:39:36 <pikhq> Um. . . No, the first one. . .
01:40:01 <pikhq> And booland stores the result in the first argument. . .
01:40:10 <oerjan> nope, second
01:40:46 <pikhq> The only time booland touches the second one is to copy it into a temporary variable.
01:41:11 <oerjan> check again.
01:41:28 <pikhq> The BFM version I'm testing this one predates the standardisation of input, output, temp.
01:41:31 <oerjan> note that x is the _second_ argument.
01:41:41 <oerjan> oh.
01:42:10 <pikhq> I've yet to port to the new version the currently-existing code of mine beyond stdlib.
01:42:18 <pikhq> Task for class tomorrow.
01:48:26 <pikhq> You know, other people can feel free to chime in on the sheer insanity of this. . .
01:48:48 <oerjan> and then we'll beat them to a pulp. freely.
01:48:53 <pikhq> Indeed.
01:50:24 <pikhq> macro beattopulp {person pointer} {result} {temp} {comment {I've not finished this yet.};copy person > pointer : temp;move pointer > result}
02:02:18 <oerjan> Did subvar also previously take its result in the first argument?
02:04:15 <oerjan> ah! mystery solved
02:04:37 <oerjan> add result 2 should be addvar result v2
02:05:15 <oerjan> * tmp1
02:11:41 <pikhq> How the *hell* did I mix that up?
02:12:40 <oerjan> no idea. now to see if i can extract mod from the divvar calculation simultaneously
02:13:08 <pikhq> Now, I've got a different question. . .
02:13:14 <pikhq> Why isn't itoa working now?
02:13:25 <oerjan> hm...
02:13:35 <oerjan> is mod working?
02:13:46 <pikhq> It is.
02:14:11 <pikhq> 25%50 *is* 25, right? :p
02:14:22 <oerjan> so i've heard
02:18:30 <oerjan> are the correct a1, a2, a3 calculated?
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02:20:34 <oerjan> ah. mod doesn't preserve its second argument.
02:22:17 <pikhq> Well, there's the problem. :p
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02:27:04 <pikhq> Bwahahah!
02:27:07 <pikhq> (it works)
02:27:53 <pikhq> It's also horribly large and inefficient, but hell; I'm happy.
02:28:42 <pikhq> Most of it's just large amounts of pointer movement, though. :/
02:32:35 <pikhq> Now, I assume you'd like the new source. . .
02:34:06 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/itoa.bfm
02:34:08 <oerjan> btw the last divvar is redundant
02:34:29 <pikhq> Thanks.
02:34:50 <pikhq> 1847 characters. . .
02:34:57 <pikhq> That's one huge bit of code for itoa.
02:35:51 <oerjan> it should shorten a bit with a divmod macro
02:36:06 <pikhq> Yeah.
02:36:28 <pikhq> Even more if I just tidy up the usage of tmp vars in some places.
02:38:44 <oerjan> hm... in divvar, if you move the last subtract temp1 1 up a bit then you can delete the others
02:39:36 <oerjan> (+ the add)
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02:45:27 <oerjan> now, right after the inner while temp1 {, add copy y > mod : temp3 ; subvar temp1 > mod : temp3
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02:47:15 <oerjan> and a set mod = 0 earlier. That should be enought to make it a divmod, i believe
02:48:58 <pikhq> And, of course, add mod to the args list? :p
02:49:03 <oerjan> yes
02:49:31 <pikhq> Not seeing what you mean about moving the subtract temp1 1. . .
02:53:01 <pikhq> Odd. . .
02:53:16 <oerjan> i'll write it up
02:53:35 <pikhq> Surely 51/25=2 remainder 1?
02:53:42 <pikhq> 0:51|0|24|*0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
02:53:46 <oerjan> yes
02:53:52 <oerjan> something wrong?
02:54:03 <pikhq> Cell 0 is y, cell 1 is x, cell 2 is mod. . .
02:55:45 <oerjan> is this the mod macro that seemed to work before?
02:56:22 <pikhq> No, it's divmod.
02:56:37 <pikhq> . . . OH.
02:56:37 <oerjan> the one i suggested?
02:56:46 <pikhq> Innermost while temp1. XD
02:56:58 <oerjan> yep
02:57:51 <pikhq> Now we've got it saying 51%25=25, and 51/25=0.
02:58:52 <pikhq> 0:51|0|25|*0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|
02:59:53 <oerjan> ok, take a look at http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/divmodvar.bfm
03:00:04 <oerjan> i haven't tested it, though
03:00:22 <pikhq> Exactly what I've got.
03:01:18 <pikhq> The bug is in subvar.
03:01:32 <pikhq> 10-5!=251.
03:02:26 <pikhq> Err. . .
03:02:42 <pikhq> Just did 10-5, not 5-10. XD
03:03:55 <oerjan> no, there is a bug in addvar
03:04:00 <oerjan> temp is not cleared
03:05:16 <pikhq> Ah.
03:05:49 <pikhq> That didn't fix it, though.
03:06:11 <oerjan> however that cannot be the problem in divmod, because temp3 _is_ cleared. if you have exactly the same version as i
03:07:47 <pikhq> I do.
03:09:13 <pikhq> Somehow, we're managing to screw up the division ability of divvar without changing any of the actual variables except for one we added ourselves. . .
03:09:16 <oerjan> and are you using the newest stdlib?
03:09:23 <pikhq> Currently, yes.
03:09:54 <pikhq> Otherwise, move x > temp wouldn't work.
03:10:26 <oerjan> wait. i just saw something.
03:11:11 <pikhq> :)
03:11:19 <oerjan> no. false alarm.
03:11:24 <pikhq> :(
03:13:10 <pikhq> Well, I found out *one* bit of the problem. . .
03:13:18 <oerjan> ?
03:13:24 <pikhq> *Without* our changes, it doesn't seem to work.
03:13:52 <oerjan> you mean there is something wrong with divvar from the start?
03:14:34 <pikhq> Yeah.
03:14:43 <pikhq> Unless you argue that 25/51=0.
03:14:48 <pikhq> Err.
03:14:52 <pikhq> 51/25=0
03:17:31 <oerjan> is the new input/output/temp separation working properly?
03:17:55 <pikhq> Yes. . .
03:17:58 <dbc> Hello.
03:18:05 <oerjan> hi
03:18:43 <pikhq> Hmm. Seems to work with divvar a > b : d e f g when a=5, b=11. . .
03:19:41 <pikhq> But. . . Not for anything else?!?
03:20:00 <pikhq> I'm going to give up.
03:20:48 <pikhq> . . . Hrm. Maybe I was giving it the wrong bloody arguments.
03:20:52 <pikhq> . . . Yup, I was.
03:21:46 <oerjan> is it working anyhow?
03:21:47 <pikhq> divvar a > b : d e f g does b/a, not a/b. XD
03:21:50 <pikhq> Yeah.
03:21:53 <pikhq> Now to test divmod.
03:22:17 * oerjan cannot stand the suspense
03:23:14 <pikhq> YAY!
03:23:37 * oerjan does the happy dance
03:23:47 <graue> You know, if you guys used test-driven development, you would KNOW your code was going to work.
03:23:59 <graue> Silly 90s "good enough" programming techniques. Tsk.
03:24:58 <pikhq> We're coding in Brainfuck. We are therefore insane. . .
03:26:07 * oerjan prefers formal proof. in principle.
03:26:24 <dbc> Working on itoa?
03:27:19 <oerjan> sort of. itoa is working, but using separate div and mod macros
03:27:36 <oerjan> so now we have a divmod one.
03:27:36 <dbc> Ah.
03:28:20 <pikhq> Porting itoa to the new BFM. . .
03:28:33 <pikhq> And wondering how I broke stuff.
03:28:44 <oerjan> hm. i thought if an argument is both input and output then it counts as output, right? but bitnot isn't that way.
03:28:57 <pikhq> Ah. I see.
03:29:23 <oerjan> on the other hand it seems silly to say bitnot > x
03:29:47 <oerjan> but then, maybe not.
03:30:01 <pikhq> Let me get itoa working first.
03:31:54 <oerjan> i think bitnot is buggy, too. subtract x 1 should be add x 1
03:32:12 <oerjan> because bitnot x = -1 - x
03:33:46 <oerjan> perhaps you meant boolnot
03:35:44 <pikhq> How should I call divmod in itoa, anyways?
03:36:02 <pikhq> divmod tmp > int a1 : tmp1 tmp2 tmp3 tmp4?
03:36:21 <oerjan> sounds about right
03:37:04 <pikhq> I've discovered a bug somewhere.
03:38:24 <pikhq> Ah.
03:38:28 <pikhq> Missed a line.
03:38:55 <pikhq> There we go. . .
03:43:50 <pikhq> 1004 characters in itoa.b now.
03:44:16 <pikhq> Could shrink it down a good deal more if it weren't uberparanoid about cell clearing.
03:44:47 <pikhq> But hell; I'm not in the mood to complain.
03:46:59 <pikhq> New BFM up, with itoa.bfm and divmod.bfm in stdlib.
03:47:18 <oerjan> ideally you would want to keep a list of variables you knew were cleared...
03:47:29 <pikhq> Well, yes.
03:48:03 <pikhq> Perhaps it'd be best to set up something like that, and have the list cleared when someone starts using right and left (because then the interpreter doesn't know at all)?
03:49:00 <oerjan> unless there was some declaration like at, for declaring which variables might have been touched
03:49:01 <dbc>  I've been digging through my email and found an itoa that's 122 commands. By Oleg Mazonka with some tweaks from myself.
03:49:09 <dbc> I bet we can do better, but that's a start anyway.
03:49:26 <pikhq> . . . Damn.
03:50:32 <oerjan> heh. if you remove all instances of [-] from the output, what is its length then?
03:50:50 <dbc> I'll dig through a little more and see if anyone's improved on it further yet.
03:50:54 <dbc> 119 I think.
03:51:11 <pikhq> I'll check after I get it working without redundant cell clears.
03:51:17 <oerjan> i meant pikhq's version
03:52:57 <oerjan> it would be an indication how much of the size is due to that problem
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03:56:35 <oerjan> anyhow, time to go to bed
03:56:41 <dbc> Bertram Felgenhauer did it in 89.
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03:58:59 <dbc> About cell clearing...I'm not familiar with details of your thing, but when I looked at BFBASIC I noticed that it cleared all cells immediately before use...and that if it cleared all cells that might be nonzero immediately AFTER use, it would have produced shorter code...
03:59:22 <dbc> so I would think about taking that approach.
04:11:38 <pikhq> 808 characters.
04:12:11 <pikhq> Our approach is now "set attempts to discover whether a cell has been touched at all".
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04:14:13 <pikhq> Given the is0 directive, we get 752 characters.
04:15:06 <pikhq> We no longer need to feel guilty about excessive cell clearing. :)
04:15:40 <pikhq> Grawr.
04:15:44 <pikhq> Broke something.
04:20:19 <dbc> I'm playing with Bertram's...he used the same basic idea I was thinking of, but he ended up using 3 cells per output digit, plus a constant. We can use one cell plus a constant without too much trouble, and I think without lengthening it tooo much.
04:25:14 <pikhq> Fixed it.
04:25:26 <pikhq> Forgot set var 10 is also valid. XD
04:25:50 <pikhq> 773 characters.
04:28:33 <pikhq> 770 characters (one tiny coding mistake).
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04:34:05 <dbc> 87. Let me play with it more.
04:35:47 <pikhq> Hand it to me when you're done. . .
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04:37:48 <dbc> Sure. Actually this would have made a pretty decent golf.
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05:38:03 <dbc> Still fiddling with this. Have you got a better way to add 48 to a cell than ++++++[>++++++++<-]?
05:39:25 <dbc> I almost never use wrapping...wondering if it would save in this case.
05:40:02 <Eidolos> ++++++[>++++++++<-] is the minimum.
05:46:05 <dbc> Okay, here's what I've got. You set it up so that there are three zeroes, then the integer to output, then plenty more zeroes. You set the pointer on the third zero. Then you do this. +[+++++++++>[<<+>-[>>>>]<[[>+<-]>>>+>]<<-]<[-]++++++[<++++++++>-]>>[<+>>]<<]<[.[-]<]
05:57:37 <dbc> No, that's not the minimum--I just checked and apparently -[>+<-----]>---will work too. So for the whole thing we can do +[+++++++++>[<<+>-[>>>>]<[[>+<-]>>>+>]<<-]<[-]-[<+>-----]<--->>>[<+>>]<<]<[.[-]<]
05:58:14 <Eidolos> Hmm, but that isn't portable.
05:59:08 <dbc> ...or better yet, +[+++++++++>[<<+>-[>>>>]<[[>+<-]>>>+>]<<-]<[-]-[<+>-----]>>[<+>>]<<]<[---.[-]<]
05:59:33 <dbc> Not entirely, no.
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06:07:15 <dbc> It looks like it will work with 8-bit cells, 16-bit cells...it would be very very slow with 32-bit cells, but should produce the right answer eventually.
06:07:59 <dbc> 64-bit or bignum interpreters, it'd be hopeless on. Likewise any that can't handle negative numbers because they're written in an environment that does not support integers natively, e.g. lambda calculus...
06:08:20 <dbc> or one that tries to police absolute portability and purposely disallows negating a zero.
06:09:05 <dbc> ...but as this is for a project that assumes wrapping bytes, it should be fine.
06:09:12 <Eidolos> :)
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13:42:17 <oerjan> now here is something for the practical minded of us: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chind%C5%8Dgu
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13:53:21 <pikhq> NEVER!!!
13:53:31 <oerjan> what?
13:54:33 <pikhq> Be practically minded.
13:54:56 <pikhq> dbc: How many cells of memory does it use?
13:55:00 <oerjan> actually i meant that in a sort of backward way
13:55:19 <oerjan> unpractically minded, even
13:55:19 <pikhq> . . . ARGH.
13:56:07 <pikhq> Not all the loops can be converted over to variables, and therefore it won't be made over into BFM. . .
13:56:38 <oerjan> the positioning trap again?
13:56:46 <pikhq> Yup.
13:57:02 <pikhq> dbc: So, thanks, but we can't really use it. :'(
14:00:53 <oerjan> we could if we used array parameters...
14:03:09 <pikhq> On the bright side, we no longer get redundant cell clearing in our code. :)
14:08:06 <oerjan> how does the redundancy check work inside while loops?
14:11:32 <pikhq> The while loop, at the very end of the loop, adds the variable it operated on (unless it's "while current") to the list of cleared cells. . .
14:12:50 <oerjan> and at the beginning does it empty the list?
14:12:53 <pikhq> Otherwise, it works exactly the same (if it touches a variable, it removes it from the list, if it clears a variable, it gets added to the list). . .
14:13:08 <pikhq> No, the list is only emptied for right and left.
14:13:58 <oerjan> there is a problem there, in that if a variable is touched inside a list it needs to be removed at the beginning of the while as well
14:14:42 <pikhq> Um, no. . . The list of cleared cells is global, not scope-dependant.
14:15:34 <oerjan> consider set x 0; while y { ... ; set x 1 }
14:15:47 <oerjan> inside ... you cannot assume x cleared
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14:16:35 <pikhq> We get x added to the list of cleared cells, and *once* x has been operated on by "set x 1", it's removed from the list.
14:16:54 <pikhq> We *can* assume x has been cleared, because nothing has touched it. ;)
14:17:10 <oerjan> wait a moment. let me clarify.
14:17:23 <oerjan> consider set x 0; while y { set x 0 ; ... ; set x 1 }
14:17:37 <oerjan> then the second set x 0 cannot be removed
14:18:42 <pikhq> Why not? The last time anything operated on x was a cell-clearing operation. . .
14:18:49 * pikhq *really* isn't seeing your point
14:20:05 <oerjan> it cannot be removed the second time the while loop is run
14:20:24 <pikhq> Ah. . .
14:20:50 <pikhq> Yeah, I can see how that could be a bug.
14:22:54 <pikhq> Perhaps add an "isnot0" command to be able to prod the compiler into compliance?
14:25:09 <oerjan> well, if we don't want to do a flow analysis ...
14:25:18 <oerjan> i think is0 is more useful
14:27:19 <oerjan> let's see. have a stack of cleared and touched lists.
14:28:00 <oerjan> at the beginning of a while, push new, empty ones. use the is0 directive to add cleared ones explicitly.
14:28:51 <oerjan> at the end of a while, merge the top two sets
14:30:43 <oerjan> at the end, a variable will be cleared if it was cleared before and not touched at the end inside
14:31:08 <oerjan> but touched if it was touched either before or at the end inside
14:32:35 <oerjan> if neither, then it will be on neither list
14:33:07 <oerjan> this should be a useful approximation without requiring backtracking
14:34:38 <oerjan> you could have an is0 list too, to check consistency
14:37:10 <oerjan> or you could do backtracking to move information back to the beginning of the while
14:37:24 <oerjan> then you could avoid is0
14:37:36 <oerjan> but it would of course be even more complicated
14:40:00 <oerjan> i can imagine a two-pass solution, where you use set x 0 instead of is0 x
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14:42:46 <oerjan> the first pass would keep track of which while bodies clear and touch which variables
14:43:26 <oerjan> the second pass would use that to remove redundant clears
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14:46:05 <oerjan> but this solution would require some way of tracking code positions
14:47:59 <oerjan> i think a solution with stacks of cleared, touched, and is0 lists could be a compromise. you would then need to declare with is0, but the declarations would be checked for correctness, and all in one pass
15:13:47 <oerjan> it suddenly occurred to me that redundant clearing is just a special case of redundant while loops.
15:22:31 <oerjan> hm, isnot0 (or rather maybenot0) could be useful too, provided it triggered a promise that no other variables in the while loop would be touched
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16:24:15 <SimonRC> ... and in other news, another looney nation has The Bomb:   http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6033457.stm
16:50:31 <RodgerTheGreat> fantastic
16:51:26 <RodgerTheGreat> the real question, however, is not wether they can make *one*, it's wether they can make a million. That was the entire point of the Manhattan project in the U.S.
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17:04:58 <SimonRC> kipple_: hi
17:05:46 <RodgerTheGreat> hey, kipple.
17:27:33 <pikhq> oerjan: The joys of having a second coder look at my code. :)
17:28:01 <pikhq> I'll probably implement one of those, and get a command line parser running, sometime this afternoon.
17:28:37 <pikhq> Probably have a command line option to stop the redundant clear checking, just to confirm that that's not what's breaking the code.
17:28:44 <pikhq> (if it breaks)
17:37:26 <oerjan> we'll see :)
17:45:28 <pikhq> For now, though, I'll just have is0 and isnot0.
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17:51:02 <SimonRC> Sgeo: hi
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18:38:41 <dbc> So...hm. The problem is that that itoa can't be decomposed into BFM macros or something?
18:48:20 <pikhq> Just not yours.
18:48:58 <pikhq> I've *got* an itoa in BFM; it's part of stdlib now.
18:49:11 <pikhq> The problem is that *yours* cannot be used with the variable system.
19:03:10 <dbc> Because it uses a variable amount of memor?
19:07:43 <dbc> (Note I said "that THAT itoa can't be decomposed", not "that no itoa can be decomposed")
19:09:38 <pikhq> Ah.
19:09:45 <pikhq> dbc: Yeah.
19:10:35 <pikhq> We can't even guarantee that the memory you're working with is a contiguous block. . . Much less guarantee that your code won't go out of the block assigned.
19:23:56 <dbc> Have you implemented anything Turing-complete in BFM?
19:24:09 <dbc> (Just to prove it's possible)
19:24:14 <Sgeo> BFM?
19:25:21 <pikhq> BFM is distributed with brainfucktobfm.
19:26:13 <pikhq> It's *possible* for your itoa to work. . . It just wouldn't work *as a macro in BFM*, because the macros in BFM are supposed to be a bit. . . generalised.
19:45:56 <dbc> That's going to make it very hard to do things efficiently. Because it pretty much means you can't use nondestructive flow control.
19:46:04 <dbc> (in a macro)
19:47:05 <dbc> What's divmod look like when turned into brainfuck?
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22:36:00 <pikhq> dbc: 179 characters.
22:37:33 <pikhq> Although that can change depending on the relative placement of cells in memory.
22:58:26 <pikhq> 171 now.
23:02:21 <pikhq> The latest divmod gives us a 24 character decrease in itoa size.
23:10:57 <pikhq> . . . Wow. Now, uncompress.bfm, when compiled, differs from uncompress.strip.b in 4 characters. . . Those 4 are part of a comment block in uncompress.strip.b. . .
23:12:18 <GregorR-W> Hahah
23:13:41 * SimonRC goes to bed.
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2006-10-10:

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05:37:18 <dbc> How about the time efficiency?
05:46:00 <dbc> In raw brainfuck, it can be trimmed to 28 commands, maybe fewer; I haven't done a real search. It takes time proportional to the divisor.
05:46:07 <dbc> No, I mean the dividend. Sorry.
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13:36:30 <pikhq> dbc: But, since it can only be used with a specific memory layout, not going with BFM (although you could use it in BFM code). . .
15:22:53 <SimonRC> lol:  http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/mundane-name
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16:43:02 <GregorR> !ps
16:43:05 <EgoBot> 3 oerjan: bf8
16:43:07 <EgoBot> 4 GregorR: ps
16:43:08 <GregorR> !kill 3
16:43:09 <EgoBot> Process 3 killed.
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17:24:56 <pikhq> !cat Stop killing me!!!
17:24:59 <EgoBot> Stop killing me!!!
17:28:02 <lindi-> cat?
17:28:56 <pikhq> Yeah.
17:29:04 <pikhq> +[,.]
17:29:44 <lindi-> pikhq: why not "echo"?
17:30:01 <pikhq> lindi-: That's the name of the daemon. . .
17:30:30 <SimonRC> !psd
17:30:33 <EgoBot> Huh?
17:30:37 <SimonRC> !ps -d
17:30:38 <pikhq> !ps d
17:30:39 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
17:30:41 <EgoBot> 2 GregorR-L: daemon cat bf
17:30:43 <EgoBot> 3 SimonRC: ps
17:30:45 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
17:30:47 <EgoBot> 2 GregorR-L: daemon cat bf
17:30:49 <EgoBot> 3 SimonRC: ps
17:30:50 <pikhq> Hahah.
17:30:51 <EgoBot> 4 pikhq: ps
17:30:56 <lindi-> pikhq: but why is it named cat?
17:31:06 <pikhq> lindi-: Because Gregor named it cat.
17:31:15 <lindi-> GregorR: why did you name it cat?
17:31:50 <SimonRC> lindi-: After the computer program cat, of course
17:32:21 <lindi-> $ cat Stop killing me
17:32:21 <lindi-> cat: Stop: No such file or directory
17:32:21 <lindi-> cat: killing: No such file or directory
17:32:22 <lindi-> cat: me: No such file or directory
17:32:28 <lindi-> SimonRC: but it doesn't work like that :(
17:32:34 <lindi-> "echo Stop killing me" would be logical
17:32:36 <SimonRC> indeed
17:32:40 <SimonRC> yes
17:34:40 <pikhq> lindi-: It's not `cat Stop killing me`, it's:
17:34:42 <pikhq> $ cat
17:34:46 <pikhq> Stop killing me
17:34:49 <pikhq> Stop killing me
17:34:52 <pikhq> ^D
17:34:53 <pikhq> $
17:35:57 <lindi-> pikhq: by why then "ps -d" is not "ps" and then type "-d" ?
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17:37:42 <pikhq> lindi-: With daemons, you're doing !daemon-name input-to-daemon. With !ps, you're starting a process with arguments.
17:38:16 <pikhq> !EgoBot keeps daemons running until the daemon is killed.
17:38:20 <EgoBot> keeps daemons running until the daemon is killed.<CTCP>
17:38:22 <pikhq> !EgoBot keeps daemons running until the daemon is killed.
17:38:25 * EgoBot keeps daemons running until the daemon is killed.
17:39:02 <lindi-> how illogical
17:39:47 <oerjan> !EgoBot keeps forgetting the order of output when e is restarted
17:39:50 * EgoBot keeps forgetting the order of output when e is restarted
17:39:56 <pikhq> It's a daemon. -_-'
17:40:38 <lindi-> daemon() will redirect standard input, standard output and standard error to /dev/null.
17:41:07 <lindi-> pikhq: very illogical use of the word "daemon" too since a daemon by definition does not do any input or output with stdin or stdout
17:41:33 <lindi-> quote was from "man daemon"
17:41:34 <oerjan> !Egobot keeps thinking it is lindi- who is illogical
17:41:38 <EgoBot> Huh?
17:41:51 <pikhq> lindi-: It's not Unix, it merely takes a few hints from Unix.
17:41:56 <oerjan> !EgoBot keeps thinking it is lindi- who is illogical
17:42:00 * EgoBot keeps thinking it is lindi- who is illogical
17:42:17 <lindi-> pikhq: you should invent new terminology ;)
17:43:00 <pikhq> lindi-: Not my bot.
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19:31:17 * pikhq has done some updating on BFMC. . .
19:31:24 <pikhq> It now matches the modern language. ;0
19:31:49 <pikhq> ^;)
19:40:18 <RodgerTheGreat> rather frightening
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21:38:26 <oerjan> *.rip
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23:02:41 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Anything I write is frightening these days.
23:04:59 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
23:05:10 <oerjan> AAAAAAH! DON'T SAY THAT!
23:08:10 <RodgerTheGreat> the "h" word?
23:08:46 <oerjan> nononono. what pikqh wrote. all of it, in fact.
23:09:24 <lament> that is... disconcerting
23:10:02 <lament> no, maybe not disconcerting... "unsettling"?
23:10:10 <NPOV> heelo
23:10:21 <lament> no, a better word would be "frightening". It's simply... frightening.
23:10:43 <oerjan> NPOV: I find that a biased statement. and misspelled, too.
23:10:53 <pikhq> I
23:11:03 <NPOV> :-(
23:11:07 <oerjan> NO! HE DID IT AGAIN!
23:11:23 <NPOV> Heh, i am not neutral :>
23:11:46 * oerjan hopes everyone realizes that anything he writes is silly these days.
23:12:02 <lament> this oerjan guy, all he does is be silly
23:12:06 <lament> lets just ban him
23:12:14 <lament> no wait
23:12:21 <oerjan> now _that's_ frightening.
23:12:22 <lament> let's tar and feather him
23:12:34 <oerjan> not gzip?
23:12:41 <pikhq> RUN!
23:12:41 <lament> and put him in a cage in a public square
23:15:09 * NPOV is watching scarface
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02:22:19 <dbc> Okay, so the benefits of being unable to control the code layout outweigh the disadvantages of producing big slow code. That answers my question.
02:22:52 <oerjan> what was that about?
02:23:21 <oerjan> not Python, I hope...
02:23:47 <oerjan> which is not big code, i think
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02:30:18 <dbc> Part of a very slowww running discussion with pikhq about BFM.
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04:16:32 <Asztal> u = 6.0f; if( isnan(i) ) i = free(man); //<- awesome
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12:51:39 <SimonRC> Ye gods there are some tasteless jokes on Slashdot for the Reiser story.
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13:47:37 <pikhq> They have no sanity.
13:47:44 <pikhq> As usual.
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17:45:43 * pikhq should get a command line parser on bfm. . .
17:46:36 * oerjan is working on improving the non-wrapping brainfuck constants
17:46:47 <pikhq> Whooo.
17:47:04 <pikhq> oerjan: Say, could you some time make a script to generate a stdcons.bfm?
17:49:12 <oerjan> hm... i have nearly all i need already, since i have made a BFConstants haskell module
17:49:39 <oerjan> which i needed to automatically check whether my algorithms are improvements
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19:41:48 <pikhq> Argh.
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22:49:04 <SimonRC> pikhq: what?
22:49:05 <SimonRC> lol!  http://url.ie/27a
22:52:44 <pikhq> BFM now has a simplistic command line parser.
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22:53:23 <GregorR-W> Which is too bad for a language not supporting command lines :P
22:53:39 <GregorR-W> Or do you mean to have a command line /within/ the program?
22:53:41 <pikhq> ./bfm.tcl --file filename --strip (1, 0) --optimize (1, 0)
22:53:54 <GregorR-W> *terrified*
22:54:00 <pikhq> GregorR-W: The compiler can now parse command lines. XD
22:54:30 <pikhq> Allows us to disable the optimization routines if, for some reason, it breaks something. ;)
22:54:44 <GregorR-W> eg because your code is borked ;)
22:55:02 <pikhq> No, because I've not made the optimization routines more complex.
22:55:28 <pikhq> At the moment, one needs to tell the compiler whether or not a cell is 0 if its assumption is incorrect.
22:55:36 <pikhq> When I've got more time to code, I'll fix that.
22:58:00 <GregorR-W> Suuuuuuuuuuure
22:58:13 <pikhq> Seriously.
22:58:22 <GregorR-W> I'm kidding :P
22:58:40 <pikhq> I've already got an algorithm to make the compiler smarter about that (thanks to oerjan), I just need to write it into the program.
22:59:02 <pikhq> Err. . .
22:59:03 <pikhq> Lost it.
22:59:10 <pikhq> Will need to figure it out again. XD
22:59:12 <GregorR-W> XD
23:00:23 <pikhq> dbc: One can use very small code. . . It's just not going to be with the very, very generalised macros in BFM.
23:00:38 <oerjan> look in the logs, everything was discussed here
23:00:53 <pikhq> dbc: One could instead do a small handful of macros specific to your code's needs.
23:00:56 <pikhq> oerjan: Ah.
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23:48:29 <oerjan> pikhq: the set macro in bfm should use subtraction for negative numbers. also, if bfm is firmly 8-bit wrapping, then all of add, subtract, set should test for argument > 128.
23:50:44 <oerjan> other than that, i'm taking a break.
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2006-10-12:

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02:46:00 <pikhq> oerjan: It should; I'm just too lazy to get that done right now.
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03:01:55 <oerjan> me too
03:03:36 <pikhq> Yay, laziness!
03:03:54 <pikhq> Most powerful driving force behind all of my actions.
03:07:32 <Asztal> Laziness can be a good thing
03:08:00 <pikhq> I prefer productive laziness.
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03:15:28 <wooby> hello
03:16:19 <oerjan> "The three principal virtues of a programmer are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris."
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04:44:50 <calamari> hi
04:45:23 <calamari> well, the only problem now is having a bunch of operators
04:48:31 <calamari> these are fun:
04:48:32 <calamari> assn:           expr expr;
04:48:33 <calamari> if:             expr block;
04:48:33 <calamari> ifelse:         expr block "." block;
04:48:33 <calamari> while:          expr "." block;
04:48:33 <calamari> do:             "." block expr;
04:48:34 <calamari> break:          ".";
04:49:46 <calamari> dunno if that has already been done in a lang, but it's good at lessening the number of symbols needed
04:54:50 <RodgerTheGreat> ergh
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04:55:02 <RodgerTheGreat> break creates horrible code even more than GOTO.
04:56:15 <calamari> yeah
04:56:31 <calamari> I'd like to have both, but it's being a problem getting it into the grammar without conflicts
04:57:12 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
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04:58:18 <calamari> hi Gregor
04:58:34 <GregorR-L> 'ello squiddy
04:58:49 <calamari> see the log for my grammar excerpt :)
04:58:58 <calamari> (ipod compiler)
04:59:19 <calamari> see if you can figure out how to add a goto
04:59:42 <calamari> btw, num would be used (rather than expr)
05:00:10 <calamari> oh cool "." num was okay
05:00:37 <GregorR-L> Sure, just give me commands.
05:00:42 <GregorR-L> As if I care ;)
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05:17:11 * Sgeo would like to see a BF version of NetHack ;)
05:18:23 <calamari> yay got it
05:18:25 <calamari> assn:           expr expr;
05:18:25 <calamari> if:             expr block;
05:18:25 <calamari> ifelse:         expr block "." block;
05:18:25 <calamari> while:          expr "." block;
05:18:25 <calamari> do:             "." block expr;
05:18:26 <calamari> label:          "$" num;
05:18:28 <calamari> goto:           "." expr;
05:18:30 <calamari> break:          ".";
05:18:52 <calamari> note that each ends with $ too, but it's not visible here
05:19:28 <calamari> maybe I should just do "." num.. makes it easier :)
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17:51:19 <pikhq> Whoo. . .
17:52:26 <pikhq> I've got BFMC and BFM put into the same script.
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18:03:12 <calamari> hi
18:03:18 <lament> hy
18:03:50 <GregorR-L> hai
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19:39:41 <calamari> now each operator has at least 3 ways to be entered
19:48:48 <calamari> bbl
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20:42:13 <nooga> hei
20:42:47 <pikhq> Grr. . .
20:42:55 <pikhq> My computer is really starting to piss me off.
20:43:07 <pikhq> Currently, it is in a state of semi-limbo. . .
20:43:34 <pikhq> I cannot access it via the physically attached terminal, but I can use it over the nextwork.
20:43:52 <pikhq> This, understandably, is incredibly frustrating.
20:43:59 <nooga> who knows ocaml?
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21:11:16 <oerjan> nooga: ocaml? i know a little bit about it. although it has been a while, these days i use haskell.
21:11:35 <nooga> i need pattern matching in directed graph
21:12:18 <nooga> but... damn, got to go
21:12:20 <nooga> bye
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21:57:23 * pikhq just tested one of BFM's long-existing features. . .
21:58:04 <pikhq> BFM allows you to write one source file for EOF=0 and EOF=-1 (and, through judicious usage of cell clearing, EOF=nochange).
22:07:28 <RodgerTheGreat> that's a pretty nice feature.
22:07:47 <RodgerTheGreat> probably generates bloated code, but it's still handy as an option.
22:09:11 <pikhq> Actually, it doesn't produce bloated code.
22:09:49 <pikhq> if-1 {stuff to be run for EOF=-1};if0 [stuff to be run for EOF=0};normal code. . .
22:15:31 <pikhq> Also, if you're bored, it's possible to use BFM and brainfucktobfm for Brainfuck to C compilation. . .
22:17:56 <pikhq> ./brainfucktobfm < foo.b > foo.bfm;./bfm --lang c --file foo.b > foo.c;gcc foo.c -o foo
22:18:00 <pikhq> XD
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22:48:47 <pikhq> And new tarball is up.
23:20:02 <oerjan> hm. it seems to me that strange things can happen if you put the @ procedure anywhere but at the top of your program. shouldn't there be a check for this?
23:24:28 <oerjan> in particular it would mess up the C version.
23:26:41 <pikhq> It's called "undefined behavior". ;)
23:27:37 <pikhq> (although, for a more robust system, I should fix that. . .)
23:27:43 <pikhq> Looking at the new tarball?
23:30:34 <oerjan> yes.
23:30:48 <pikhq> :)
23:42:17 <oerjan> something weird in goto. i think you got the C part for left instead.
23:42:55 <pikhq> Um. . . Probably.
23:45:04 <Razor-X> pikhq: You've got me hooked.
23:45:22 <pikhq> Razor-X: Really? Schweet. . .
23:45:23 <Razor-X> pikhq: I want to try and make some things that bootstrap BFM and BF at a low-level, and some other compiler-type stuff.
23:45:34 <pikhq> Took long enough. :p
23:45:44 <Razor-X> Before the fever hit me last night, I was contemplating a BFM kernel for kicks :P
23:45:50 <pikhq> :p
23:46:08 <pikhq> oerjan: Try the new tarball.
23:46:09 <Razor-X> After that I was like ``*Moan*... bloody fever *Moan*...'' so no productivity there.
23:46:19 <pikhq> Ergh.
23:47:01 <pikhq> I should update what documentation there is; currently, the source is the only accurate documentation.
23:47:19 <pikhq> Fortunately, it's (mostly) sanely written, and I *am* available, so. . .
23:48:28 <oerjan> you could tidy up a bit by moving the ::location code out of the language-specific branches for the right, left and goto procs.
23:49:05 <oerjan> oh, new tarball.
23:49:18 <pikhq> Well, probably.
23:49:31 <pikhq> Let's get it working right first. :p
23:50:37 <Razor-X> Is it all written in TCL?
23:50:49 <pikhq> Yeah.
23:51:00 <Razor-X> pikhq: An idea.
23:51:06 <pikhq> Yes?
23:51:17 <Razor-X> Can you extend BFM to work on a layer of BF built on ByteF?
23:51:26 <Razor-X> It'll make stdcons a lot more effecient.
23:51:32 <Razor-X> And some other really low level stuff.
23:51:33 <pikhq> ByteF?
23:51:43 <Razor-X> You've never heard of ByteF***? o_O
23:51:46 <pikhq> Nope.
23:51:55 <Razor-X> Hold on while I plug you a link.
23:52:48 <Razor-X> Errr... Not ByteF, maybe I got the name wrong.
23:52:52 <pikhq> Esolangs hasn't heard of it, either.
23:52:57 <Razor-X> BoolF there we are.
23:53:18 <pikhq> . . . Why Boolfuck?!?
23:53:27 * pikhq really doesn't see it being more efficient. . .
23:53:49 <oerjan> stdcons _is_ pretty efficient when you have just 0 and 1 :)
23:54:46 <pikhq> Ah. :p
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23:56:56 <Razor-X> Exactly.
23:57:16 <GregorR-L> Yes, exactly.
23:57:19 <GregorR-L> Totally correct.
23:57:21 <GregorR-L> I presume.
23:57:25 <Razor-X> I think there are some other stuff you can make effecient too. Plus it's much easier to make an effecient optimizer.
23:58:42 <Razor-X> Even storing characters, if you're allowing BFM to do that.
23:59:59 <pikhq> Crazy woman.

2006-10-13:

00:00:11 <pikhq> Boolfuck. . . Gah!
00:00:16 <Razor-X> :P
00:00:28 <Razor-X> The character 64: >>>>>+;
00:00:44 <Razor-X> Without optimization, of course.
00:01:13 <pikhq> Again: Gah!
00:02:10 <pikhq> ;+;+;;;;;; would actually be the appropriate code, BTW.
00:02:59 <Razor-X> Oh, duh.
00:03:25 <Razor-X> I was thinking of it modifying one byte at a time.
00:03:31 <Razor-X> Hey! Idea!
00:03:37 <pikhq> Yeah?
00:04:07 <Razor-X> A BF-derivative. Extensions to BF that allow you to work on bits, and output the current byte.
00:04:26 <Razor-X> Hmmm... current byte would be pretty... freeform though.
00:04:51 <GregorR-L> egobch --easy-io
00:04:53 <GregorR-L> (IIRC)
00:05:03 <GregorR-L> (The flag may be something else :P )
00:05:14 <Razor-X> bch?
00:05:22 <GregorR-L> BitChanger
00:05:43 <GregorR-L> --easy-io adds . and , which output the byte
00:05:50 <GregorR-L> Erm, output and input :P
00:05:56 <Razor-X> Drat. Thought of already.
00:06:03 <oerjan> but with boolfuck there is no constant improvement. unlike bignum brainfuck where you can improve 137 to +>>+++[-<+[-<++>]<[->++<]>+>]<
00:06:17 <Razor-X> Byte using artificial byte divisions?
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00:17:51 * pikhq mutters about his peers being somewhat less intelligent than him
00:18:08 <pikhq> When bored, they do. . . Watch TV? Go to parties? Like I know.
00:18:21 <pikhq> When bored, *I* design a programming language and write a compiler for it.
00:18:22 <pikhq> :)
00:18:42 <GregorR-L> Go write an interpreter for http://www.codu.org/plof/
00:19:37 <oerjan> pikhq: in the C part for left, right and goto you don't set ::current, something i think might bite you with _goto current.
00:19:56 <pikhq> oerjan: Thanks.
00:20:11 <pikhq> GregorR-L: No thanks.
00:20:17 <pikhq> I'd rather do a real Lisp. :p
00:20:37 <GregorR-L> Plof and lisp aren't particularly similar.
00:21:33 <pikhq> Fixed and up on server.
00:22:00 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Yeah. . . Lisp is worth learning. :p
00:22:27 <GregorR-L> But not worth using ;)
00:22:52 <pikhq> Razor-X: Care to do the honors?
00:23:01 * pikhq hands Razor-X some rusty knife blades
00:23:04 <GregorR-L> Oh boy, I can extend Emacs ... AND NOTHING ELSE
00:23:04 <GregorR-L> :P
00:23:40 <Razor-X> Hmmm?
00:23:48 <pikhq> GregorR-L: In other news, Emacs has everything needed for a real OS but a window manager.
00:23:59 <GregorR-L> I'm well aware.
00:24:01 <lament> pikhq: so?
00:24:05 <GregorR-L> And it's sad.  Terribly, terribly sad.
00:24:05 <pikhq> And that's probably going in the next release.
00:24:09 <lament> pikhq: so does os x. I'd rather use os x.
00:24:35 <pikhq> lament: I'd rather not give up my freedom, thanks.
00:24:43 <GregorR-L> I'd rather use GNU/Linux.
00:25:05 <GregorR-L> But it would be interesting to make a minimal microkernel and then implement Emacs as a kernel-level interface :P
00:25:14 <GregorR-L> Making Emacs /literally/ your operating system.
00:25:25 <pikhq> Indeed, it would be interesting.
00:25:39 <pikhq> Kernel level Elisp interpreter. ;)
00:26:05 <Razor-X> So BFM is written in partly C partly TCL?
00:26:44 <pikhq> Razor-X: No, it's all in Tcl. He's referring to the bits that implement the C target.
00:27:38 <Razor-X> BFM compiles to C?
00:28:03 <oerjan> pikhq: i don't think you have fixed the bug
00:28:04 <pikhq> It's one of the target languages.
00:28:45 <pikhq> oerjan: Curses, you're right.
00:29:07 <oerjan> i would suggest doing a split of at into _at, like with goto.
00:29:34 <oerjan> then you can just use calls to at in all the places.
00:29:54 <pikhq> oerjan: Would probably be cleaner.
00:30:19 <pikhq> oerjan: New tarball posted.
00:30:30 <pikhq> Will need to clean up the source a lot sometime later.
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00:31:21 <Razor-X> But shouldn't BF be the only target of BFM?
00:31:30 <Razor-X> Or is this a BF->C compiler?
00:31:42 <pikhq> It's a BFM->C compiler.
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00:31:58 <Razor-X> ... Can't see why, but can't see why not either :D
00:32:17 <pikhq> "Why?" "Why not?" is the whole concept behind it.
00:32:44 <GregorR-L> Just like Perl!
00:32:56 <pikhq> Soon as I fix bfmc's stdlib up a bit, I'll ship BFM with two sets of macros: one generic, one which is just a wrapper for the underlying C. . .
00:33:08 <Razor-X> Do you have a specification of BFM done?
00:33:28 <pikhq> *Had*.
00:33:38 <Razor-X> What happened?
00:33:50 <pikhq> BFM evolved faster than the spec.
00:34:06 <GregorR-L> Somebody set BFM up the bomb.
00:34:49 <Razor-X> Care to revise the spec?
00:35:10 <pikhq> Not at the moment. . .
00:35:43 <oerjan> pikhq: you have to change right and left as well. and the current should still be ::current, i think.
00:36:04 <Razor-X> Then I guess I shall see if I can read TCL.
00:36:08 <Razor-X> Where's the tarball?
00:36:18 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bfm.tar.bz2
00:37:11 <pikhq> oerjan: Fixed.
00:37:54 <pikhq> Razor-X: If you want some example code, feel free to ask.
00:41:41 <oerjan> pikhq: one more time, with _feeling_ :)
00:42:11 <pikhq> oerjan: ??
00:42:59 <Razor-X> What's array?
00:44:33 <Razor-X> Can you declary variables?
00:44:41 <Razor-X> *declare
00:44:48 <pikhq> Razor-X: Um. . . A command that keeps coming up at random that I though I had played with, realised was broken, and removed long ago?
00:44:55 <pikhq> @ variable location
00:45:02 <pikhq> Declaration of a variable.
00:45:21 <Razor-X> Is there any dedicated variable space?
00:45:36 <pikhq> The whole Brainfuck array. . .
00:45:57 <pikhq> You specify each variable's location when you declare it.
00:46:22 <Razor-X> So variables exist at the location of the pointer when you declare?
00:46:27 <pikhq> Yeah.
00:46:33 <pikhq> Err.
00:46:39 <oerjan> pikhq: you misspelled it
00:46:49 <pikhq> They exist at the location you specify.
00:46:54 <Razor-X> Oh.
00:46:56 <Razor-X> You aren't going to abstract variables completely?
00:47:01 <pikhq> Nope.
00:47:17 <pikhq> Like I said: fairly low level stuff.
00:48:31 <Razor-X> For efficiency's sake, I would think a dedicated variable space is more effecient though...
00:49:12 <pikhq> I fail to see how.
00:50:24 <Razor-X> I guess.
00:50:39 <pikhq> Unless you think [<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-] is more efficient than {<+>-]. :p
00:52:24 <oerjan> pikhq: current, that is
00:52:56 <pikhq> I'll fix in $minutes.
01:00:46 <Razor-X> pikhq: So, how 'bout my proposal?
01:01:22 <Razor-X> I wanna try and write a ByteChanger interpreter in ASM, and then I'll port BF to ASM. Can you extend portions of BFM to compile to ByteChanger? Like stdcons?
01:01:38 <Razor-X> Or, heck, we'll write stdcons directly in ByteChanger.
01:08:11 <pikhq> Razor-X: Please, no.
01:08:23 <pikhq> BTW, I don't have stdcons.bfm written at all. XD
01:08:44 * oerjan peers out guiltily ;)
01:12:32 <Razor-X> Pfft. Fine. I'll patch it myself then :P
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23:29:36 <ihope> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_page <- I don't feel like switching to Firefox to type this in.
23:30:14 <oerjan> what about it?
23:30:41 <ihope> I wanted to go there :-P
23:32:01 <ihope> Now, we need more quantum programming languages.
23:33:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I just got ahold of a weird old BASIC-powered alphasmart-type-thing.
23:33:34 * RodgerTheGreat feels an urge to write a BF interpreter.
23:33:43 <ihope> No!
23:33:51 <calamari> hi
23:33:52 <ihope> You need to write an UNLAMBDA interpreter!
23:33:56 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
23:34:31 <pikhq> Write a BF interpreter.
23:34:35 <calamari> how much memory does it have ?
23:34:43 <pikhq> Then, if you're crazy, write a BFM interpreter.
23:34:44 <RodgerTheGreat> 32K, plus the ROM.
23:34:51 <calamari> cool
23:34:59 <ihope> And add a command that puts out a ? function for the current character.
23:35:02 <RodgerTheGreat> even better- it's Z80-based, and I have POKE and CALL!
23:35:13 <oerjan> indeed. i never got around to writing Unlambda in Befunge or BF, so...
23:35:27 <calamari> does it have a keyboard?
23:35:49 <RodgerTheGreat> it pretty much *is* a keyboard, plus a little four-line LCD display.
23:36:27 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.8bit-micro.com/laser.htm <- this is the thing
23:37:39 <RodgerTheGreat> I need to get a basic memory-map worked out before I can really have fun with POKE. Fortunately, I have PEEK.
23:38:04 <ihope> Peek peek peek!
23:38:15 <RodgerTheGreat> I'll whip up a little ascii/hex editor, and see if I can find my bearings.
23:38:47 <ihope> RodgerTheGreat: wait, writing all this on the alphasmart thing?
23:39:06 <RodgerTheGreat> nothing is quite as fun as stepping manually through memory with a jury-rigged memory viewer coded in BASIC
23:39:11 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, hell no.
23:39:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm IRCing from my mac.
23:39:43 <RodgerTheGreat> are you insane? It won't have an IRC client... until I code one. ^_^
23:39:46 <calamari> come on.. where is your network stack coded in bf?
23:39:58 <RodgerTheGreat> naturally, I'll have to build my own network interface for it as well.
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23:40:24 <calamari> interface it with a usb memory stick
23:41:37 <RodgerTheGreat> the unit has an interesting ROM-cartrige interface slot I may play with later- it might be possible to do some bit-bashing and get R/W on it, allowing things like that.
23:41:59 <RodgerTheGreat> otherwise, I have a serial port that shouldn't be too hard to interface with.
23:42:01 <calamari> RodgerTheGreat: this is what I want to wire onto an ipod: http://www.brolinembedded.se/projects/keyboard/keyboard_advance.jpg
23:42:17 <calamari> yeah, that serial port is the way to go
23:42:19 <RodgerTheGreat> ooh. that would be sweet.
23:42:56 <calamari> yeah.. would certainly improve typing speed over the standard interface
23:43:02 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I'll see about trying to interface the serial port with the serial port on one of my spare palms, and then I can use the palm as an external storage unit.
23:44:25 <RodgerTheGreat> first: memory map. then, I'll see about the serial interface, and then I'll take a crack at coding a proper BF environment in Z80 asm.
23:44:32 <RodgerTheGreat> my weekends are booked for a month.
23:47:51 <RodgerTheGreat> :D
23:48:22 <RodgerTheGreat> tiny BASIC interactive systems make me insanely happy
23:48:32 <RodgerTheGreat> Best. OS. ever.
23:49:51 <calamari> sounds like you'd like an ibm pc then
23:50:13 <RodgerTheGreat> well, you have to load BASIC from a disk on a PC.
23:50:25 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm trying to get ahold of a C64.
23:50:32 <RodgerTheGreat> an apple ][ would be fun as well.
23:51:41 <calamari> didn't the ibm have basica in a rom ?
23:51:58 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. I don't *think* so...
23:52:03 <calamari> pretty sure it did
23:52:12 <calamari> and it'd load into it if you don't have a disk
23:52:38 * calamari checks wikipedia
23:53:05 <RodgerTheGreat> "BASICA allows use of the ROM-resident BASIC included with early models of IBM's PC while DOS is loaded " <- sounds like you're right.
23:53:29 <calamari> The original PC had a version of Microsoft BASIC ?IBM Cassette BASIC? in ROM.
23:53:36 <calamari> quote from the IBM PC article
23:53:40 <calamari> hehe
23:54:01 <calamari> not quite as portable tho
23:54:12 <RodgerTheGreat> well, this explains why the "BASICA" command never did anything in DOS- it only works if you have a ROM with BASIC on it already.
23:54:25 <calamari> yeah, otherwise you need gwbasic
23:54:31 <RodgerTheGreat> or QBASIC.
23:54:54 <calamari> there was no qbasic
23:55:07 <calamari> at least during that time frame
23:55:42 <calamari> gwbasic is still handy, because it's small and fits better on a boot disk
23:56:16 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, agreed.
23:56:59 <RodgerTheGreat> does it ever bother you to see some of the languages passed off as BASIC these days? VisualBASIC and BlitzBASIC have almost nothing in common with the true language.
23:58:53 <calamari> hmm.. speaking of the "true" language.. I emailed Kurtz who co-wrote it one day asking about it, and got a reply
23:59:08 <calamari> so that was pretty neat
23:59:14 <RodgerTheGreat> woah, cool.
23:59:35 <calamari> anyhow, in the "true" version there were only double precision values

2006-10-14:

00:00:05 <RodgerTheGreat> by "true", do you refer to the Dartmouth timeshare version?
00:00:14 <RodgerTheGreat> or BASICA?
00:00:15 <calamari> yeah
00:00:18 <RodgerTheGreat> ah
00:00:54 <calamari> I was finding a bunch of conflicting information about it and wanted to find out the truth from the source
00:00:59 <calamari> I didn't actually expect a reply
00:01:22 <calamari> now the question is what did I do with that mail?  I know I saved a hardcopy someplace
00:01:59 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't think modern niceties like labels, optional line numbering and floating-point values really dillute the language, but it bothers me a lot when I see a "BASIC" that uses curly brackets everywhere, has strict typing, and requires variable predeclaration.
00:02:17 <calamari> yeah that's pretty funny
00:02:32 <calamari> well bfbasic should work for you then
00:02:34 <RodgerTheGreat> "wtf... that's... not basic..."
00:02:48 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah- BFBASIC is a pretty nice piece of software.
00:02:49 <calamari> although it only has chars
00:02:52 <calamari> hehe
00:03:02 <calamari> thanks, it was fun writing it too
00:03:25 <calamari> of course, now that I'm taking this compilers course, I have the urge to rewrite all my old compilers
00:03:44 <calamari> in particular, 5200BAS
00:03:57 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, wow- I didn't realize you were the author of BFBASIC.
00:04:04 * RodgerTheGreat shakes calamari's hand.
00:05:17 <pikhq> My favorite way of writing a compiler: design the language so Tcl can parse it for me. :p
00:05:24 <RodgerTheGreat> heheh
00:05:35 <pikhq> Works well for BFM, at least. ;)
00:06:12 <RodgerTheGreat> "Lost Kingdom" together with BFBASIC constitute one of the most impressive demonstrations of BF's capabilities to date, in my opinion.
00:06:45 <pikhq> LostKng, BTW, was written in BFBASIC. :p
00:06:55 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, that's what I meant.
00:07:15 <ihope> BF's capabilities?
00:07:26 <ihope> It's Turing-complete, kid :-P
00:07:31 <pikhq> It's Turing complete, and can therefore do anything. -_-'
00:07:48 <pikhq> (within reason: no halting problem solving for you)
00:07:49 <RodgerTheGreat> not in an abstract sense, but in the implementation of an actual complex app.
00:08:01 <RodgerTheGreat> there's a difference between something being possible and being pulled off.
00:08:23 <ihope> It's possible to make a C-to-BF compiler, you know.
00:08:30 <pikhq> BFMC will be more impressive if Gregor *works on it*. :p
00:08:37 <pikhq> Err.
00:08:40 <pikhq> C2BF.
00:08:41 <pikhq> XD
00:08:52 <ihope> And a Haskell-to-BF, and Lisp-to-BF, and such.
00:09:00 <ihope> Curry- and Prolog-to-BF.
00:09:32 <pikhq> ihope: There *is* a C-to-BF, BTW.
00:09:34 <RodgerTheGreat> if you can get around the I/O limitations, it isn't that mind-numbing a concept.
00:10:24 <pikhq> Calamari has gotten a way of getting around the I/O limitations. . .
00:10:25 <RodgerTheGreat> something like an OS written in BF would most likely need a small amount of wrapper code made in another language to get around that problem.
00:10:50 <RodgerTheGreat> ?
00:11:05 <ihope> Just leave the I/O bit undefined.
00:11:48 <pikhq> EsoAPI.
00:12:22 <ihope> EsoAPI, eh?
00:12:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I haven't read about EsoAPI...
00:12:36 <ihope> What'd it do, exactly?
00:12:44 <RodgerTheGreat> ah http://kidsquid.com/programs/esoapi/esoapi.html
00:13:18 <RodgerTheGreat> bingo- that would do it.
00:13:18 <calamari> RodgerTheGreat: I wrote a tiny bf based os
00:13:32 <RodgerTheGreat> was it functional?
00:13:42 <ihope> EsoAPI is just disk access?
00:13:48 <calamari> well.. that depends on your definition of functionall hehe
00:13:54 <RodgerTheGreat> heh
00:14:14 <ihope> Could you apply it to other operating systems to make even more operating systems?
00:14:28 <calamari> an6yhow.. it's that BOS link oin the bottom :)
00:14:56 <calamari> it basically gives you esoapi plus a bf interpreter
00:15:00 * oerjan listens carefully, and adds an EsoAPI wiki page
00:15:02 <calamari> there isn't anything else
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00:15:24 <calamari> btw, esoapi has been somewhat taken over by pesoix
00:15:40 <pikhq> EsoAPI provides for an *idea* of getting complex I/O in Brainfuck, but nothing functional.
00:15:51 <ihope> PesoIX?
00:15:59 <ihope> (Am I capitalizing it right?)
00:16:17 <calamari> pikhq: :)
00:16:28 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. fascinating..
00:16:29 <calamari> ihope: i think it's PESOIX
00:17:15 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, another co-creation with Jon Ripley.
00:17:23 <calamari> I started implementing PESOIX, but ran into some big problems
00:17:27 <calamari> yeah :)
00:17:37 * ihope clicks: http://www.google.com/search?q=PESOIX
00:17:41 <calamari> although I don't think we knew each other when he started that
00:17:50 <RodgerTheGreat> ihope: http://catseye.mine.nu:8080/projects/pesoix/doc/pesoix.html
00:22:10 <pikhq> I might implement PESOIX sometime. . .
00:22:35 <pikhq> If I do so, I will, of course, create a BFM library to assist writing PESOIX code.
00:22:53 <calamari> pikhq: I ran into problems when trying to do the fancy i/o wrapping
00:23:07 <RodgerTheGreat> sounds like a bit of a trick to write software for, but just think of the expanded horizons it offers to esoteric programming...
00:23:19 <calamari> pikhq: the idea was that you could use pesoix to instantly upgrade any i/o capable interpreter
00:23:26 * ihope clicks: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/BFM
00:23:47 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Thus why I'd make a library.
00:23:49 <calamari> pikhq: the problem is that i/o streams don't get sent right away.. they get buffered
00:24:07 <calamari> pikhq: a buffer would be a sensible approach
00:24:12 <calamari> err library
00:24:22 <RodgerTheGreat> a library is probably the least painful way to make PEOSIX accessible to coders.
00:24:46 <pikhq> One could just make an unbuffered interpreter.
00:24:55 <calamari> well, the wrapper program would be even less painful if it worked, because then the interpreter wouldn't have to change at all
00:25:05 <pikhq> Yes. . .
00:25:11 <pikhq> Wouldn't work, sadly.
00:25:27 <pikhq> But PESOIX could be done.
00:25:46 <pikhq> If I implement it, I'll implement it on top of egobfi. ;)
00:27:54 <RodgerTheGreat> one day, computers will be fast enough to run BF as fast as they can run compiled C today. BF is going to kick ass in 50 years.
00:28:48 <pikhq> Hahah.
00:30:43 * pikhq considers how to implement pesoixlib. . .
00:32:30 <RodgerTheGreat> what you'd want to do after implementing PESOIX would be to write libraries for within BF that would allow you to replicate the majority of the standard C library, (that is, the parts that depend on I/O) thus making semi-practical porting a reality.
00:32:48 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I'd do it in BFM. . .
00:39:13 <pikhq> I'm not going to work on implementing PESOIX right now. . .
00:39:33 <pikhq> First, I'll think of how I could make a slightly more useful API for PESOIX. :p
00:40:33 <pikhq> Perhaps access to networking facilities?
00:40:36 <RodgerTheGreat> make it a new dialect
00:40:42 <pikhq> Yeah.
00:40:43 <RodgerTheGreat> (easel has networking facilities)
00:40:50 <pikhq> I call 0x02!
00:41:11 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: It has some CGI facilities.
00:42:16 <RodgerTheGreat> how about direct memory access (specifically, VRAM)
00:42:34 <RodgerTheGreat> then I could synthesize a graphics library
00:44:38 <pikhq> With network support, one can call X11. :p
00:45:11 <RodgerTheGreat> that means your programs would have a dependency chain up the ass. VRAM is lower-level.
00:45:37 <pikhq> It's an option.
00:46:44 * RodgerTheGreat shrugs
00:47:26 <RodgerTheGreat> if you aren't going to implement VRAM-access, I claim 0x05 for future use.
00:48:54 <RodgerTheGreat> "0x05: your one-stop graphics and sound I/O shop!"
00:49:10 <pikhq> I've decided one thing that I'm not going to do. . .
00:49:28 <pikhq> If a feature is already in EsoAPI or Easel, it won't go into 0x02.
00:49:44 <RodgerTheGreat> naturally.
00:49:46 <pikhq> One can, with 2 more output characters, switch into one of them to access those features. ;)
00:50:23 <RodgerTheGreat> that's the idea
00:50:55 <pikhq> Could be a bit annoying for BFM code, though:
00:51:09 <pikhq> toEasel tmp2
00:51:33 <pikhq> printAsDecimal foo
00:51:39 <pikhq> to0x05
00:51:46 <RodgerTheGreat> meh- you can always build a more convenient syntax for those functions later.
00:51:52 <pikhq> outputSoundBit foo
00:51:57 <pikhq> Yeah.
00:52:31 <pikhq> I could just as easily make every pesoixlib macro call "toEasel" or "to0x05", etc. when appropriate.
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00:52:59 <pikhq> Or extend BFM to make it simpler. :p
00:53:07 <ihope> http://index.hu/tech/tudomany/ttfkp060327/ <- is that something Hungarian?
00:53:18 <oerjan> tudomany means science, i believe
00:54:41 <RodgerTheGreat> woah, cool- 3d displays?
01:00:28 <pikhq> So. . . Yeah. PESOIX. >:D
01:00:56 <oerjan> definitely hungarian.
01:03:04 <oerjan> i can't make out whether index.hu is a portal or a news site
01:04:30 <GregorR-L> pikhq: If you are an expert at POSIX, you have everything necessary to implement PESOIX without even touching a language interpreter.  Otherwise, g'luck :P
01:08:17 <oerjan> it seems to me that the EsoAPI dialect is ill-advised - it requires PESOIX to know internals of the esolang.
01:08:43 <oerjan> *esolang implementation
01:08:55 <pikhq> GregorR-L: It's easier to tie in the interpreter to allow for such things as buffered vs. unbuffered input. . .
01:09:04 <pikhq> Not impossible, just easier.
01:09:15 <GregorR-L> Yes, it is easier, but less flexible :)
01:09:21 <pikhq> Well, yes. . .
01:09:37 <GregorR-L> FYI, I will accept any and all patches implementing PESOIX into EgoBF :P
01:10:37 <ihope> What if they must be run as root and "rm -rf /" after being run too many times?
01:10:39 <pikhq> Schweet.
01:11:06 <ihope> You'll run it under virtualization pretending to have Linux on a live CD?
01:11:11 <ihope> (It's run from Linux, right?)
01:12:01 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I assume you mean "if well-written". :p
01:12:27 <Arrogant> Nope, he means ALL.
01:12:37 <GregorR-L> If it was just a bit messy, I may be inclined to clean it myself.  If it's a total mess, feel free to make a branch ;)
01:13:16 <ihope> What if it won't run under virtualization?
01:13:21 <pikhq> If it's a total mess, stab me with a rust knife.
01:13:47 <pikhq> rusty
01:13:58 <GregorR-L> A KNIFE MADE OF RUST
01:14:04 <GregorR-L> Not very effective though :P
01:14:33 * ihope rusts GregorR-L's knife
01:14:44 <oerjan> that could almost be a novel title
01:15:02 <pikhq> ihope: The Easel spec specifies that any unsafe calls (specified in the spec) must be approved by the user.
01:15:20 <ihope> Now, if you have a dirty mind, that refers to... well.
01:15:41 * ihope goes to http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Easel
01:15:59 <ihope> Nope. You lose.
01:16:05 <pikhq> http://jonripley.com/easel/api.txt
01:16:35 <pikhq> Dialect 0x01 of PEOSIX (and the only one to really have support for file access at the moment).
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01:16:56 <GregorR-L> I wrote an interpreter for Plof in D.
01:17:29 <GregorR-L> Not quite complete yet, but it can do while loops and the ilk :P
01:17:37 <ihope> Plof, eh?
01:17:42 <ihope> Where's the spec thingy again?
01:17:48 <GregorR-L> http://www.codu.org/plof/
01:18:22 <GregorR-L> Ignore the plof2js on that web site, I broke it in transitioning to a new server and have been too lazy to fix it :P
01:19:01 <ihope> So does it have enumerated list thingies and strict left-associative folds?
01:19:06 <ihope> If not, it sucks.
01:19:08 <ihope> :-P
01:19:56 <GregorR-L> Be more specific with respect to "enumerated lists"
01:20:02 <GregorR-L> That could mean about eighty things.
01:20:16 <ihope> Stuff like "the integer range 7 to 80".
01:21:02 <pikhq> I'm excited about PEOSIX, just not enough to actually do stuff with it. XD
01:21:12 <RodgerTheGreat> heh
01:21:24 <GregorR-L> ihope: Ah - right now in the stdlib, I'm trying to decide whether to move it into a language feature.
01:21:38 <ihope> Both?
01:21:42 <GregorR-L> Yes.
01:21:56 <ihope> Does it automatically optimize everything?
01:22:07 <GregorR-L> No - hence wanting to move them into the language itself ;)
01:22:27 <ihope> That's what optimization rules are for.
01:22:56 <GregorR-L> I would continue, but have to go, time to go home.
01:23:06 <ihope> Stuff like "change reverse . foobar to reverseFoobar and barfoo . reverse into barfooReverse".
01:23:14 <ihope> Except each in its own rule :-P
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01:44:06 <calamari> pikhq: btw, I was using 0x02 for my pesoix implementation :)
01:44:22 <calamari> but since it hasn't been released.. go ahead
01:44:30 <pikhq> :)
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02:00:17 <ihope> Nduru, Moyiga. "Is 'Cull' a Four-Letter Word?", Inter Press Service, December 5, 2005. Retrieved on May 12, 2006.
02:00:32 <ihope> Yes, I think it is a four-letter word, seeing as how it has four letters in it.
02:01:05 * oerjan is starting to have worries about ihope's ability to understand connotations
02:02:03 <ihope> Indeed.
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03:33:56 <ihope> We need a !google command for EgoBot.
03:34:03 <ihope> Get to work on those daemons, guys!
03:34:38 <GregorR-L> lol
03:34:43 <GregorR-L> Not sure you could do that as a daemon :P
03:34:54 <GregorR-L> But EgoBot is OSS - if somebody makes a patch, I'll accept it.
03:35:17 <ihope> Couldn't do that as a daemon?
03:35:28 <GregorR-L> You'd need net access.
03:35:49 <ihope> You don't need Internet access to tell that the top Google result for "foobar" is" http://www.google.com/search?btnI=I&q=foobar".
03:36:04 <GregorR-L> XD
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04:14:08 * RodgerTheGreat possesses a commodore 64!
04:14:24 <RodgerTheGreat> now I just need to get the damn thing to work...
04:31:59 <Razor-X> I have criticized Java before, and while my criticisms stand, I must say I'm sorry for ragging so hard on Java.
04:32:05 <Razor-X> C++ deserves it much much more.
04:32:44 <pikhq> Razor-X: They both deserve it equally.
04:33:24 <Razor-X> pikhq: Well, Java is just slow and badly implemented. C++ is plain bad.
04:34:08 <pikhq> Razor-X: Meh. I prefer a decent functional language. . .
04:34:14 <Razor-X> pikhq: Agreed.
04:34:21 <pikhq> Including Tcl, the functional language that thinks its an imperative one. :p
04:34:41 <Razor-X> I'm attempting to write a SWIG wrapper for C++ code in the aftermath of a fever.
04:35:34 <Razor-X> I think I'm just making my fever worse.
04:36:00 <pikhq> Merely your insanity.
04:37:03 * pikhq has been trying to figure out some guy's attempts at making a simple Brainfuck interpreter. . .
04:37:13 <pikhq> It's driving me nuts.
04:37:26 <Razor-X> Well, this person is determined to use everything C++.
04:37:30 <Razor-X> OMG input stream iterators.
04:37:37 <Razor-X> OMG templates! Who needs structs?!
04:38:00 <pikhq> std::cout << "Why couldn't we just use printf?!?" << std::end;
04:38:30 <pikhq> printf("Joy, the sanity of C is here.");
04:38:45 <GregorR-L> writefln("D is better than both C and C++");
04:39:01 <pikhq> puts "Well, that goes without saying."
04:39:03 <Razor-X> It is, but only if I can wrap it first.
04:39:25 <GregorR-L> println("Plof looks a lot like D in this case :P");
04:39:42 <Razor-X> (display "Well, whatever floats your boat")
04:40:18 <oerjan> putStrLn "Can I join the discussion?"
04:40:26 <Razor-X> (display "Sure!")
04:40:50 <GregorR-L> foobar = println;
04:41:08 <Razor-X> So, knowledgeable people of #esoteric, what's an input stream iterator?
04:41:35 <oerjan> sequence_ $ concatMap putChar $ "Sanity is overrated" ++ toEnum 10
04:41:49 <oerjan> *map
04:43:50 <pikhq> !bftxtgen We're esoteric.
04:43:54 <EgoBot> Huh?
04:43:59 <Razor-X> :P
04:44:00 <pikhq> !txtgen We're esoteric.
04:44:04 <EgoBot> Huh?
04:44:07 <pikhq> Gah!
04:44:52 <Razor-X> !bf_txtgen We're esoteric.
04:45:08 <EgoBot> 130 ++++++++++++++[>++++++++>++++++>+++>+++<<<<-]>>+++.++++++++++++++.>---.<<++.>.>-------.<.<+.----.+++++.>.<--.---------.>--.>>++++. [705]
04:45:13 <Razor-X> Pwned.
04:45:19 <pikhq> {M[m(_o)O!"There we go. . . A *real* language!"(_o)o.?]}
04:46:16 <GregorR-L> ^^
04:47:51 <Razor-X> So, again, what is an input stream iterator?
04:48:49 <GregorR-L> Something which implements the interface of an iterator, but actually reads input, I'd imagine.
04:49:11 <Razor-X> You young-uns and yer fancy OOP wards.
04:49:32 <Razor-X> How do you use an input stream iterator is a more pertinent question, I guess.
04:50:51 <pikhq> (message "Surely we're *all* Emacs users, right?")
04:51:36 <Razor-X> (display "Let's use Lisp from the dark ages!!!111!!!")
04:52:12 <pikhq> (defun no () (message "No, thanks; I'm good."))
04:52:19 <oerjan> 10 PRINT "No, I use vim"
04:52:37 <pikhq> oerjan: I'm fairly certain that that's BASIC, not Vim. XD
04:52:53 <Razor-X> (define dark-ages "I like using 20 different syntactical forms!!!!111!!!")
04:52:56 <pikhq> (no)
04:53:35 <Razor-X> (dark-ages)
04:53:41 <oerjan> :%s/BASIC/vim/g
04:54:12 <pikhq> oerjan: Vi written in BASIC?
04:54:14 <pikhq> (no)
04:54:43 <Razor-X> Modified: <pikhq> oerjan: I'm fairly certain that that's vim, not Vim. XD
04:55:10 <pikhq> I don't parse vi syntax.
04:55:23 <pikhq> Give it to me in an Elisp sexp, and I might obey.
04:55:25 <Razor-X> You don't know sed-style regexps?
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04:59:12 <Razor-X> sed is lovely.
04:59:52 <pikhq> Razor-X: I'll only parse his statements if he does it in Elisp. :p
05:00:05 <Razor-X> :P
05:00:38 <Razor-X> I think at this point it'll be more fruitful to attempt to read Japanese than reading C++ code.
05:00:58 <pikhq> Isn't it always?
05:01:16 <Razor-X> Well, I had a noble goal in mind. I was trying to wrap it in SWIG to take it out of the clutches of C++.
05:01:57 <Razor-X> It's going to be fun to attempt, because *everything* that's used is an object (except argc).
05:02:22 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, hi Razor-X. Haven't seen you in a while. How goes it?
05:02:24 <pikhq> That seems a bit excessively OOP.
05:02:37 <Razor-X> Not too bad. Just somewhat sick.
05:03:14 <Razor-X> Does the author *really* have to use std::ios_base::skipws ?
05:04:07 <RodgerTheGreat> I am in the midst of attempting to nurse a commodore 64 back to health.
05:04:16 <Razor-X> Aha.
05:04:21 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Install UNIX on it.
05:04:41 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: maybe later. First, I need to get the video output working.
05:04:45 <Razor-X> Assuming he can get a floppy with a UNIX variant for the C64.
05:05:04 -!- puzzlet has joined.
05:05:09 <GregorR-L> http://hld.c64.org/poldi/lunix/lunix.html
05:05:13 <pikhq> Razor-X: There's one online (I'll link it as soon as I can bother).
05:05:14 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm thinking I might eventually get an ethernet interface for it, and install ConTiki
05:05:17 <pikhq> Oh, Gregor linked it.
05:05:33 <RodgerTheGreat> cool
05:10:51 <Razor-X> Can SWIG target D?
05:11:38 <GregorR-L> bcd.gen can target D :)
05:11:48 <Razor-X> bcd.gen?
05:11:58 <GregorR-L> My C[++] .h -> D import converter
05:12:11 <Razor-X> Does it work well?
05:12:44 <GregorR-L> It works quite well with C, less so with C++ ... it converts FLTK2, but nothing too template-ful and even less using STL :(
05:13:30 <Razor-X> So this probably fails then.
05:14:24 <GregorR-L> Probably.
05:14:35 <GregorR-L> But C++->C with SWIG then C->D with bcd.gen would "work" :P
05:14:55 <Razor-X> Well, it would be hard to convert this to a non-OOP form.
05:15:17 <Razor-X> I'm thinking Java, since the CPU intensive stuff is taken care of in this library anyhow.
05:15:28 <pikhq> A text editor would work best. :p
05:15:30 <Razor-X> And it would be good practice when I decide to take the test later on.
05:48:35 <Sgeo> Night-all
05:48:52 <RodgerTheGreat> cya
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06:14:20 <RodgerTheGreat> later, everyone.
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14:11:21 <SimonRC> hmm
14:11:46 <SimonRC> what is the volume of a pizza with thickness a and diameter z?
14:11:54 <SimonRC> oops, *radius* z
14:16:27 <SimonRC> Razor-X: regarding your remarks about fever... Orthagonal (sic) was produced by a guy with a high fever, so maybe it helps esolanging
15:59:33 <pikhq> pi*z^2*a
16:42:23 <SimonRC> ITYM pi*z*z*a
16:42:27 <SimonRC> :-D
16:42:38 <pikhq> Haha.
16:42:45 * SimonRC took 14 hours to get that joke when he first saw it.
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17:36:13 <calamari> hi
17:36:18 <RodgerTheGreat> hello
17:37:03 <RodgerTheGreat> what's up?
17:37:15 <calamari> me.. just got up :P
17:37:26 <RodgerTheGreat> same here.
17:37:36 <calamari> hehe
17:38:27 <calamari> need to figure out why my truck is having trouble starting
17:38:50 <calamari> but I'm a computer nerd rather than a mechanic :/
17:40:22 <RodgerTheGreat> it's too bad car hardware isn't as modular and standardized as computer hardware.
17:42:26 <pikhq> I need to contemplate implementing PESOIX. . .
17:42:28 <pikhq> Whooo.
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19:22:57 -!- Razor-X` has changed nick to Razor-X.
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21:06:53 <Asztal> |-_-|
21:07:47 <ihope> We need an esoteric language that's hard to run on anything but, say, PowerPC.
21:08:11 <Asztal> do go on.
21:09:09 <ihope> Actually, I wonder whether PowerPC would fit that criterion.
21:29:19 <ihope> !ps d
21:29:23 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
21:29:25 <EgoBot> 2 GregorR-L: daemon cat bf
21:29:27 <EgoBot> 3 ihope: ps
21:29:51 <EgoBot> A fatal exception 0E has occurred at 0137:BFFA21C9. The current application will be terminated.
21:30:28 <Asztal> :o
21:30:45 <ihope> Gregor! Have you been running EgoBot on Windows again?
21:35:04 <GregorR> Har har har.
21:35:31 <EgoBot> Everybody knows how to make me talk, it's not impressive.
21:35:59 <EgoBot> Plus, GregorR has logs, hope.
21:36:03 <EgoBot> *ihope
21:36:48 <ihope> You could have at least pretended somebody else did it :-P
21:38:04 <Razor-X> !cat cat
21:38:07 <EgoBot> cat
21:39:59 <EgoBot> Since you're bent on abusing EgoBot, I'll just impersonate you.
21:40:13 <EgoBot> Indeed, eh? But actually--oh, say...
21:44:58 <GregorR> ihope has multiple !cat-personality disorder.
21:45:17 <ihope> Hmm?
21:45:35 <EgoBot> I will eat you, ihope !!!
21:45:51 <EgoBot> Aah!
21:46:27 * EgoBot runs away
21:46:57 <EgoBot> I mean...
21:46:59 * ihope runs away
21:47:03 <EgoBot> You can't catch me, I'm the Gingerbread Man!!!
21:47:30 <Razor-X> Wow, I think different thought processes of EgoBot are having lag :P
21:47:37 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
21:47:39 * EgoBot catches EgoBot
21:47:46 <EgoBot> Hah!
21:48:03 <EgoBot> 残念����
21:48:17 <EgoBot> omgjapanese
21:48:34 <Razor-X> Seems EgoBot's thought proccesses can't understand each other either!
21:48:40 <Razor-X> *processes
21:48:57 <EgoBot> You fail at spelling.
21:49:21 <Razor-X> Sadness.
21:52:12 <Razor-X> Asztal is so stupid. He disrupted the hours long silence.
21:54:53 <EgoBot> How?
21:55:30 <Razor-X> Because I wanted to see if we were going for record-breaking silence again.
21:55:51 <ihope> How about we all be silent, then?
21:56:45 <Razor-X> We can't do that.
21:56:49 <Razor-X> The silence has been broken.
21:57:15 <ihope> Well then, let's be silent again at 5PM my time.
21:57:23 <Razor-X> What timezone are you in?
21:57:29 <ihope> That's 2PM your time.
21:57:41 <ihope> Your time by my clock.
21:57:44 <Razor-X> Alright. Let's talk for 3 more minutes then.
21:57:48 <ihope> Yep.
21:57:55 <Razor-X> So. How's life?
21:58:10 <RodgerTheGreat> fantastic
21:58:14 <RodgerTheGreat> and a half.
21:58:26 <ihope> My life has not yet ended.
21:58:29 <ihope> Two minutes left.
21:58:48 <Razor-X> That's excellent ihope.
21:58:55 <Razor-X> How goes the C64, RodgerTheGreat ?
21:58:57 <RodgerTheGreat> how's the weather for everyone?
21:59:05 <Razor-X> Beautiful.
21:59:07 <RodgerTheGreat> it goes well, but it still fails to function.
21:59:11 <Razor-X> And I'm sick, so it's just that more beautiful.
21:59:19 <RodgerTheGreat> good, good.
21:59:23 <Razor-X> No fever yet though. That'll come later in the day.
21:59:32 <RodgerTheGreat> when will we begin talking again after this?
21:59:38 <Razor-X> Ask ihope.
21:59:40 <ihope> Some hours.
21:59:52 <RodgerTheGreat> ok
21:59:52 <ihope> Whenever we feel like it.
21:59:52 <RodgerTheGreat> two, then.
21:59:54 <ihope> Thirty seconds. I will not announce again, and I advise you to be silent immediately.
21:59:57 <RodgerTheGreat> that defeats the purpose
22:00:08 <Razor-X> How about .017 hours?
22:00:11 <RodgerTheGreat> ok
22:00:15 <Razor-X> Excellent.
22:00:41 <Razor-X> 8 seconds.
22:00:51 <ihope> Agh!
22:01:01 <ihope> You broke the silence!
22:01:08 <Razor-X> No, *you* did!
22:01:23 <ihope> My clock said the silence had already started when you said that!
22:01:29 <ihope> And my clock is PERFECT!
22:01:31 <Razor-X> My clock said it hadn't!
22:02:12 <Razor-X> Aha. My colck was an enormous 23 seconds off.
22:02:25 <Razor-X> Let's try again in another minute.
22:02:27 <Razor-X> *clock
22:02:44 <Razor-X> And we'll stay silent for 0.017 hours.
22:02:57 <RodgerTheGreat> right. 1.02 minutes.
22:03:02 <Razor-X> Yup.
22:03:05 <RodgerTheGreat> indeed.
22:03:10 <Razor-X> That's the best precision Emacs's calculator can give me.
22:03:17 <ihope> Might as well start now.
22:03:32 <oerjan> i could calculate it with Hugs if you want.
22:03:41 <Razor-X> HEATHEN!
22:03:44 <ihope> AGH!
22:03:51 <RodgerTheGreat> I could calculate it in Mathematica.
22:04:00 <oerjan> what, is there something wrong with Haskell now?
22:04:16 <ihope> I think it's "1." : repeat '6'.
22:04:41 <ihope> How about we all do it by the server clock?
22:04:47 <oerjan> i think you mean ++ not :
22:04:48 <RodgerTheGreat> which server?
22:05:03 <ihope> Um...
22:05:19 <ihope> Don't tell me the different servers have different clocks.
22:05:20 <RodgerTheGreat> if you all just check my localtime, I base my computer's clock upon apple time servers.
22:05:28 <ihope> Okay, then. RodgerTheGreat time.
22:05:32 <RodgerTheGreat> woo
22:05:50 <ihope> We'll start at 17:06:00 Rodger time and go until 17:07:02 Rodger time.
22:06:01 <RodgerTheGreat> sounds awesome.
22:06:31 <Razor-X> Tell us when RodgerTheGreat.
22:06:39 * ihope forehead slaps
22:06:49 * RodgerTheGreat laughs out loud
22:06:52 <ihope> === CTCP time reply ``Sat Oct 14 17:06:07 2006'' from RodgerTheGreat
22:06:59 <ihope> <Razor-X> Tell us when RodgerTheGreat.
22:07:01 <ihope> In that order.
22:07:15 <Razor-X> How 'bout doing it Razor-X time then?
22:07:17 <oerjan> i think this is not going very well. is there not some esoteric programming language based on silence we could use for assistance?
22:07:37 <RodgerTheGreat> or perhaps an esoteric programming language based on time.
22:07:40 <ihope> Let's just all be silent in ##quantum.
22:07:52 <oerjan> but then the whole universe disappears!
22:07:52 <RodgerTheGreat> that could be an interesting way to control program flow.
22:07:54 <Razor-X> We're always silent there anyways.
22:07:56 <pikhq> He only has half a brain.
22:08:13 <pikhq> That was temporally out of place.
22:08:18 <Razor-X> I also use Metric Time, but no-one really likes that.
22:08:21 * pikhq was looking up in the logs without knowing it
22:08:45 <oerjan> what is metric time?
22:08:51 <ihope> You're not even in ##quantum most of the time.
22:09:02 <Razor-X> Well, almost .6 of the local day is finished.
22:09:11 * oerjan has never been observed in ##quantum.
22:09:26 -!- Sarta2 has joined.
22:09:44 <Razor-X> More accurately, .58598 of the day is finished.
22:10:03 <pikhq> So, your velocity and position are both undefined.
22:10:04 <oerjan> metric time cannot be based on days. it's seconds that are the SI unit.
22:10:06 -!- Eidolos has quit (Nick collision from services.).
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22:11:25 <RodgerTheGreat> so, I've been making avatars for a bunch of people in my home channel, ##Nonlogic. (which is quite a bustling community these days) Anyone here want one?
22:12:24 <pikhq> Oooh! Oooh!
22:13:03 <RodgerTheGreat> Avatars. get them while they're hot.
22:13:16 <Razor-X> But metric is not SI.
22:13:59 <RodgerTheGreat> they're like hot-dogs, but with a lower allowable percentage of bug parts.
22:14:09 <Razor-X> But hot dogs give me indigestion.
22:14:19 <pikhq> Hahah.
22:14:35 <oerjan> SI is based on metric.
22:14:50 <oerjan> but the second may have been a later addition.
22:15:07 <RodgerTheGreat> Razor-X: I'll bet these won't, further proving their superiority to hot-dogs.
22:16:20 <oerjan> in any case, if metric were based on days it wouldn't be .58598 days but 585980 microdays.
22:17:04 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
22:18:27 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: Excellent.
22:19:29 <Razor-X> If I ever change my last name, it will become Nossex.
22:19:43 <Razor-X> In lament of lost Sussex's partner.
22:19:59 <RodgerTheGreat> ok. I can readily see how that relates to the previous conversational thread.
22:20:02 <Razor-X> Plus it's very British-y.
22:20:14 <Razor-X> Oh yes. It's very on-topic.
22:20:18 <ihope> I read that as "lament's lost partner, Sussex"...
22:20:32 <RodgerTheGreat> lol
22:20:53 <Razor-X> Well, if someone says ``Hi'' I can read that as ``You're a f***ing slut'' but I don't.
22:21:38 <Razor-X> Classy, huh?
22:21:50 <RodgerTheGreat> I find that tremendously amusing.
22:22:07 <RodgerTheGreat> may I add that to the nonlogic QDB?
22:22:14 <Razor-X> Go ahead.
22:23:43 <RodgerTheGreat> behold: http://zashi.nonlogic.org/nip/index.php
22:23:48 <pikhq> 99/me already has a British-y last name. . . Whoo.
22:24:30 * pikhq already has a British-y last name. . . Whoo.
22:25:55 <RodgerTheGreat> I wonder. When someone possesses a name that is a commonly understood descriptor of some kind, are they naturally inclined to either match that description closely, or rebel against it so as to personify the diametric opposite?
22:25:59 <RodgerTheGreat> possibly both.
22:26:07 <RodgerTheGreat> or either, rather.
22:26:18 <ihope> Both?
22:26:38 <ihope> Good luck on that... unless your name is Thomas Contradictory or something.
22:26:58 <ihope> Thomas Contradictoryofownlastname.
22:27:36 <Razor-X> Our high school doesen't have enough money for something as specialized as electronics.
22:28:11 <RodgerTheGreat> my high-school combined engineering class and electronics class as a cost-cutting measure.
22:28:15 <Razor-X> We only have basic theoretical sciences, AP theoretical sciences, and a bit by the way of biology where you get to learn in detail how animals poop, mate, sleep, eat, and continue this circle ad-infinitum.
22:28:27 <RodgerTheGreat> most of our projects consisted of building things with printer paper and tape.
22:29:02 <Razor-X> Of course, every other girl loves biology. I mean, who doesen't find pooping, mating, sleeping, and eating interesting?
22:29:30 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I find biology interesting, but not for that reason at all.
22:29:42 <Razor-X> Well, biology is a wide subject.
22:29:50 <RodgerTheGreat> biology is like lego-chemistry.
22:30:06 <Razor-X> I like biochemistry, but I hate animal behavior, which seems like everyone's favorite part.
22:30:13 <RodgerTheGreat> and you can view cellular processes as a type of computer.
22:31:30 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm particularly fascinated by the self-assembly within the cell, and the complex process of DNA and RNA transcription.
22:32:13 <RodgerTheGreat> RNA itself can fold into simple enzymes, which is a revelation when you start thinking about what must've gone on in the initial formation of life.
22:32:22 <Razor-X> That's my favorite part too.
22:32:25 <RodgerTheGreat> :D
22:32:36 <Razor-X> But most people seem to hate it. I guess it's a lot more complicated than animal behavior.
22:33:19 <Razor-X> I've heard most of AP Biology is devoted to animal behavior.
22:33:53 <pikhq> Biochemistry's much more interesting.
22:34:03 <pikhq> Like normal chemistry. :p
22:34:05 <RodgerTheGreat> when I took AP Bio, it wasn't like that at all.
22:34:18 <Razor-X> It's interesting, but only to a point :P
22:34:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I hate normal chemistry, but that may have had more to do with my chemistry teacher in high-school.
22:34:30 <EgoBot> foo
22:34:33 <Razor-X> Organic Chemistry is so different from normal chemistry, it's incredible.
22:34:54 <RodgerTheGreat> I just like the concept of molecular modularity.
22:35:08 <Razor-X> It's interesting, but so much of it can only be learned by rote.
22:35:32 <EgoBot> Veni, vidi, vbnm,./  (I came, I saw, I fell asleep on the keyboard.)
22:35:56 <Razor-X> The part I found most interesting about chemistry was... quatum chemistry :P.
22:36:10 <RodgerTheGreat> I think that was my main problem with the class- huge tables that had to be memorized, and equations and processes that didn't really make logical sense in a coherent fashion- they "just work".
22:36:11 <Razor-X> Physics is also pretty boring, until we can get to magnetism and electronics.
22:36:22 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: No, that's what Chemistry *is*.
22:36:35 <RodgerTheGreat> lol
22:36:39 <Razor-X> Unlike physics, there's very little logic in Chemistry. It's all experimentation.
22:36:47 <Razor-X> Organic chemistry is even worse by that regards.
22:37:12 <RodgerTheGreat> I thought mechanics in physics class was interesting, mainly because I can apply it to a great number of programming projects.
22:37:12 <Razor-X> *quantum chemistry
22:37:29 <Razor-X> Hmm... maybe mechanics will be interesting, I haven't gotten to it yet.
22:37:36 <RodgerTheGreat> electromagnetics seemed a little less applicable.
22:37:49 <Razor-X> First we worked on forces, now we're working on heat transfer.
22:38:08 <Razor-X> And AP Chemistry goes into heat transfer much much much deeper than AP Physics seems to.
22:39:36 * SimonRC wonders just what ##quantum is
22:39:51 <RodgerTheGreat> It was really funny to take high-school Psych after having been in AP Bio- I kept correcting my teacher on how neurochemistry works, and all the anatomy portions were a breeze.
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22:40:06 <SimonRC> yo
22:40:30 <Razor-X> My AP Physics teacher, double major from Princeton with Physics and Chemistry, has forgotten his Calculus and most of his trigonometry.
22:40:38 <Razor-X> Either he's going senile, or ....
22:40:39 <RodgerTheGreat> lol
22:40:57 <RodgerTheGreat> or he's finding it hard to care anymore.
22:41:19 <Razor-X> But how can you forget the derivative once you learn it?
22:41:40 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I'm never going to forget how to take a polynomial derivative, that's for sure.
22:41:46 <Razor-X> Sure, I can understeand forgetting things like the Intermediate Value Theorem, but how can you forget the very basics of Calculus?
22:41:54 <Eidolos> RodgerTheGreat: You say that now.. :)
22:41:58 <RodgerTheGreat> it'd be easy to get pretty rusty on some of the more complex rules.
22:42:11 <pikhq> Surely one could remember lim_h->0 (f(x+h)-f(x))/h, at least?
22:42:18 <Razor-X> Not even.
22:42:34 <Razor-X> You're turning a secand line into a tangent line, making the delta between the two points of the secand line approach zero.
22:42:51 <Razor-X> If you can remember that concept, and remember what a limit is, that's it.
22:43:00 <Razor-X> *secant
22:43:03 <RodgerTheGreat> no, I'm never going to forget *that*. Know why? I have a pile of java objects in my "reusable" folders, one of which is designed for manipulating polynomials. It isn't done, but it can take derivatives.
22:43:30 <RodgerTheGreat> My code library exists so that I don't constantly forget how to do things.
22:46:02 <RodgerTheGreat> bbl
23:13:50 * pikhq will soon reboot into 2.6.18-gentoo. . .
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23:32:15 <pikhq> Mmmm. . . New kernely goodness.
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2006-10-15:

00:00:49 -!- tgwizard has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:22:48 * SimonRC goes to bed
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01:20:19 <RodgerTheGreat> back.
01:20:25 <RodgerTheGreat> excellent news!
01:21:05 <RodgerTheGreat> I just figured out that my C64 is the european version, which may explain why the video output isn't working properly. (NTSC != PAL)
01:21:12 <oerjan> hehe
01:21:26 <RodgerTheGreat> so, now I need to find a PAL TV or an adaptor of some kind.
01:21:28 * pikhq has a Brainfuck compiler written in BFM now. . .
01:21:43 <RodgerTheGreat> cool.
01:22:00 <pikhq> Much, much smaller than what I wrote in BFC a while back when compiled.
01:22:25 <oerjan> what does it compile to? C?
01:22:35 <oerjan> asm?
01:22:40 <pikhq> C.
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01:38:18 <pikhq> I could probably make it much shorter just by cleaning up strings.bfm
01:44:25 <pikhq> At the moment, it's a bunch of inefficient ones.
01:44:27 <pikhq> Err.
01:44:29 <pikhq> +
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06:38:29 <RodgerTheGreat> so, erm... was anyone interested in an avatar?
07:05:24 <GregorR-L> ?
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07:14:12 <Razor-X> The hot dogs have gone cold :P
07:14:39 <GregorR-L> ?
07:14:59 <Razor-X> Scroll up for reference.
07:15:14 <Razor-X> About 9 hours ago comes this conversation from.
07:16:58 <GregorR-L> X_X
07:22:02 <RodgerTheGreat> so, I'm going to take this as an "I'm not interested".
07:22:19 <GregorR-L> I choose not to read :P
07:23:46 <RodgerTheGreat> <:|
07:23:59 <GregorR-L> A brief summary will suffice X-P
07:24:13 <Razor-X> Mystical magical things happened.
07:24:20 <Razor-X> And avatars transformed into hot-dogs.
07:24:29 <Razor-X> They became cold. The End.
07:24:35 <RodgerTheGreat> via the magic of literary devices
07:24:40 <GregorR-L> .
07:24:47 <Razor-X> Do not you like the story?
07:25:14 <GregorR-L> .
07:25:37 <Razor-X> I take that as a ``Yes, Razor-X, your stories captivate the mind and soul in a furious flurry of ecstacy!''
07:25:43 <RodgerTheGreat> the unabridged version is more poetic.
07:26:30 <Razor-X> Be that as it may.
07:27:58 <GregorR-L> .
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07:28:15 <GregorR-L> DO NOT PUT THE BABY IN THE <your suggestion here>
07:28:29 <RodgerTheGreat> we can take this as a "Razor-X does indeed have mad summarization skillz."
07:29:00 <Razor-X> <GregorR-L> DO NOT PUT THE BABY IN THE Be that as it may.
07:29:34 <RodgerTheGreat> perhaps.
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08:09:24 <Razor-X> Has anyone here worked with SWIG before?
08:19:36 <GregorR-L> Does SWIG take .h files as input, or some sort of special SWIG-specific info?
08:24:00 <Razor-X> .h and then you define SWIG-specific stuff in a .i file.
08:24:53 <Razor-X> Like, I want to correct the obviously ugly design of a function that takes a std::pair as input instead of using simple int arguments.
08:25:22 <Razor-X> I'm gonna change the constructor to call std::make_pair automatically on the arguments.
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10:05:31 <CakeProphet> Behold the horror that is Python if expressions!!!!
10:05:32 <CakeProphet> return ((globs.glonfiglist["display:invis_tag"] if omniscience == True and self.flags == "roominvis" else (self.incog_desc if self.flags == "incog" and omniscience == True else "")) + (self.shortdesc if self.shortdesc != "" else self.name) + (self.doing if self.doing != "" else "") if self.flags != "roominvis" or omniscience == True else None)
10:05:45 <CakeProphet> Yes... I abuse them often.
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14:56:16 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: You knucklehead; I was interested when you first asked. . . XD
15:29:16 <pikhq> Grrr. . . Seems my itoa macro is a wheee bit broken. . . :/
15:30:22 <pikhq> Unless, of course, you wish to argue that 21=31.
15:43:20 * pikhq is currently trying to prevent divmod from being run if int=0. . .
15:43:27 <pikhq> Goes into an infinite loop. . . XD
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19:23:56 <SimonRC> Razor-X: Who would be able to use the "avatars"?
19:24:14 <Razor-X> SimonRC: Discuss the licensing with RodgerTheGreat, not me.
19:24:25 <SimonRC> oops, wrong tab-completion
19:24:34 <Razor-X> :D
19:24:45 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: Who (users of which software) would be able to use the "avatars"?
19:25:06 <SimonRC> Razor-X: once you have used irsi, you will wonder how you every lived without it
19:25:21 <Razor-X> SimonRC: I don't like irssi much, to be frank.
19:25:27 <SimonRC> especially gott combined with screen, ssh, and a unix box somewhere
19:25:29 <Razor-X> But yes, I can't live without tab-complete.
19:25:37 <SimonRC> *ggod
19:25:39 <SimonRC> *good
19:25:56 <SimonRC> Just set up irssi under screen on the unix box, then ssh to it
19:26:03 <Razor-X> Or use BitchX :)
19:26:09 <SimonRC> that's how I manage to stay on-channel for weeks at a time
19:26:12 <Razor-X> (Or erc in Emacs, if the sysadmin allows it.)
19:26:27 <Razor-X> Why does TFTP waste so much bandwidth with ACKs?
19:26:30 <SimonRC> surely BitchX will die whenever your X server goes away
19:26:40 <Razor-X> No?
19:27:29 <SimonRC> huh?
19:27:29 <Razor-X> This Emacs session of mine is connected to IRC via ERC in a screen session I'm viewing from a urxvtc connected to a urxvtd simulating a terminal.
19:27:43 <Razor-X> BitchX isn't an X application.
19:27:48 <SimonRC> ah, ok
19:27:54 <SimonRC> I should try it
19:28:02 <SimonRC> I assumed that X meant X
19:28:08 <Razor-X> Nope.
19:28:16 <Razor-X> I've restarted X many times and my IRC sessions don't close. Because of screen :3
19:28:19 <SimonRC> anyway: why the ACKs:  http://grotto11.com/blog/slash.html?+1039831658
19:28:23 <SimonRC> Razor-X: yeah, I know
19:30:18 <SimonRC> particularly read the bit about the company "RunTCP"
19:34:02 <Razor-X> Wow.
19:34:17 <Razor-X> Well, I was thinking of using client-side verification instead of a bunch of ACKs.
19:35:09 <Razor-X> Send a signature via TCP then stream the data via UDP, and have the application match each piece to the signature. If a piece doesen't exist/isn't verified, then request for a retransfer of the piece.
19:35:20 <Razor-X> Like ACK, but the client does a lot more.
19:36:26 <Razor-X> So tell me beforehand: Am I being a total imbecile?
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20:28:12 <RodgerTheGreat> SimonRC: they're just image files. I usually save them as PNG's or GIF's.
20:29:44 <RodgerTheGreat> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_%28icon%29
20:29:57 <RodgerTheGreat> primarily useful on forums and on websites.
20:30:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I generally make them 128x128, because it's a relatively standard size.
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20:57:27 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: ah, ok
20:57:34 <SimonRC> Whay are you offering to make them for us?
21:03:37 <ihope> Whay?
21:06:17 <SimonRC> *Why
21:11:45 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a hobby of mine
21:13:51 <Razor-X> Thanks for answering my question, by the way :)
21:24:01 <SimonRC> It was only supposed to be a semi-answer
21:54:06 <Razor-X> <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: ah, ok -- That's a semi-answer?
22:06:30 <GregorR> I would like to request an avatar.  It must look like it was drawn by a twelve year old who inadvertantly discovered the GIMP.  Weird brushes OK, plasma filter a must.
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22:33:07 <Razor-X> Does UDP always transmit only 100 bytes at a time?
22:33:47 <ihope> What's UDP for, exactly?
22:33:54 <ihope> Is it for when you don't need error-checking?
22:35:33 <Razor-X> When you don't want to make a connection, don't need error-checking, and don't need the packets to arrive in a specific order.
22:37:58 <GregorR> It's for building TCP on top of X-P
22:39:00 <Razor-X> X-P ?
22:39:22 <ihope> Windows X-P
22:39:54 <Razor-X> Oh. Windows <Dying and sticking tongue out>
22:40:03 <ihope> Yep.
22:40:04 <Razor-X> That's a great distro name.
22:40:50 <Razor-X> Hmm. Seems UDP only locally sends 100 bytes per packet.
22:40:53 <ihope> Distro?
22:41:06 <GregorR> Didn't you all know that Windows XP is named after the face of its users?
22:41:07 <Razor-X> Oh. Blah. I forgot it's the world of Dictator Gates.
22:41:19 <GregorR> XP <(DAAAHHH IM YUSING WINDOZE EKS PEEEEEE)
22:44:08 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: I don't use the gimp, and I don't, as a rule, use filters.
22:44:34 <GregorR> Then I don't want your avatar!  I'll make one myself!
22:45:18 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: What do you use?
22:45:56 <RodgerTheGreat> Pixen, and I occasionally use GraphicConverter for cropping and scaling.
22:46:09 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: go for it.
22:46:20 <Razor-X> Oh, is it a pixeler?
22:46:43 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah
22:46:59 <Razor-X> I don't see any philosophical problems with that.
22:47:57 <RodgerTheGreat> Pixen is written for OSX, but it's fully Open-Source.
22:48:28 <Razor-X> I was looking at the page. I wish something akin to that existed in Linux.
22:48:52 <lindi-> i'm somewhat suspicious always when someboby says that something is "fully open source" ;)
22:48:58 <Razor-X> It probably wouldn't be too difficult to port if it's made for Mac OS X, but I have my own project now.
22:49:13 <lindi-> their download link gives me text/plain
22:50:04 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/myavatar.gif
22:50:06 <RodgerTheGreat> it's effectively impossible to port, sadly- it's heavily dependent on Cocoa and Quartz. Pretty much everything that makes it an awesome mac app makes it painful to try to port. :/
22:50:37 <lindi-> RodgerTheGreat: just port cocoa and quartz too?
22:50:47 <RodgerTheGreat> ...
22:51:19 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR, that's...
22:51:24 <RodgerTheGreat> ... breathtaking
22:52:30 <lindi-> RodgerTheGreat: ?
22:53:16 <Razor-X> Gods help me GregorR!
22:53:35 <Razor-X> (Pronounced: Gregor-er.)
22:53:52 <RodgerTheGreat> well, Cocoa and Quartz are massively complicated API's. You could, in theory, emulate/reverse-engineer them, but at that point you'd really be better off coding your own app from scratch.
22:54:23 <lindi-> RodgerTheGreat: that's what i mean by my suspicious about this "fully open source" stuff
22:54:49 <lindi-> "fully dependant on proprietary stuff" indeed
22:55:16 <RodgerTheGreat> then you might as well go ahead and claim that there are no open-source applications in the world that can run in windows or OSX.
22:55:52 <lindi-> RodgerTheGreat: wine might help things here
22:56:22 <lindi-> RodgerTheGreat: sure they are "open source" but adding this "fully" there just sounds weird :)
22:56:55 <Razor-X> Gotta love variables named ``blah''.
22:57:19 <RodgerTheGreat> "fully" means an entire application is open-source. For example, OSX is "open-source", but not "fully open-source". (just chunks).
22:57:51 <CakeProphet> blah is one of my favorite variable names.
22:58:16 <lindi-> RodgerTheGreat: how about calling just "partly open source" and calling pixen simply "open source"? ;))
22:58:24 <lindi-> +it
22:58:34 <Razor-X> I'm having a hard time coding in imperative form. It's been so long :(
22:58:57 <lindi-> RodgerTheGreat: otherwise we'll need to invent yet another name for free software that only depends on free software
22:59:28 <RodgerTheGreat> "StallWare"
22:59:47 <Razor-X> Then you'll be being unfair to Mr. Torvalds.
23:00:37 <RodgerTheGreat> Torvalds + Stallman + software = TollWare.
23:00:43 <RodgerTheGreat> I have created a new term.
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23:01:10 <Razor-X> What about Eric S. Raymond, and all the other miscellaneous people who helped with the GNU project, the Linux kernel, and everything else?
23:01:12 <RodgerTheGreat> hi, calamari.
23:01:18 <lindi-> RodgerTheGreat: heh
23:01:21 <calamari> hi RodgerTheGreat
23:01:48 * calamari notes that kids can cry very loudly when they don't get what they want
23:01:58 <Razor-X> :D
23:01:59 <RodgerTheGreat> if I include the entire linux community, I'd probably get an excessive flood, so I'll just stick with the concise version
23:02:10 <Razor-X> (Infinity)Ware.
23:02:16 <Razor-X> Or:
23:02:19 <Razor-X> (SegFault)Ware.
23:02:26 <RodgerTheGreat> that sounds fitting
23:02:27 <Razor-X> Because the name is so large it causes a segfault.
23:02:41 <RodgerTheGreat> I relish the double-meaning in that term.
23:02:50 <Razor-X> ;D
23:02:51 <lindi-> RodgerTheGreat: btw, slightly related but not quite: fixed today two wikipedia articles that implied that RAR archives can be decompressed with free software. it's not even funny to see how fast misconceptions like that spread
23:03:08 <Razor-X> lindi-: unrar isn't free?
23:03:22 <lindi-> Razor-X: but that's only for rar version 2.0 which isn't in widespread use anymore afaik
23:03:28 <RodgerTheGreat> free as in beer is still a type of free, no matter what FOSS advocates say.
23:03:50 <RodgerTheGreat> free as in speech and free as in beer are *both* free.
23:03:53 <lindi-> RodgerTheGreat: sure the word has different meanings, i hope you know which meaning i mean :)
23:04:17 <lindi-> Razor-X: at least i haven't hit any rar archives that would decompress with unrar
23:04:29 <Razor-X> lindi-: Some do.
23:04:32 <Razor-X> Some.
23:04:34 <RodgerTheGreat> I know what meaning you refer to, but superimposing a particular meaning on "free" isn't a fair way to claim wikipedia is incorrect.
23:04:50 <lindi-> Razor-X: yes, i explained that in the footnote in wikipedia
23:04:55 <Razor-X> :D
23:05:31 <lindi-> RodgerTheGreat: they had a long explanation on free software there, they were clearly talking about the same thing
23:07:01 <lindi-> RodgerTheGreat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_archive_formats#Archiving_and_compression
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2006-10-16:

00:02:17 <calamari> anyone happen to know if its possible to stop a console cursor from blinking?
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00:06:16 <ihope> What's the console?
00:06:18 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
00:06:53 <ihope> Or are you writing an application that should work for multiple consoles?
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01:00:40 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I think what'd be best is differentiating between the two concepts. . .
01:00:53 <pikhq> *Surely* gratis != libre.
01:01:07 <RodgerTheGreat> I suppose
01:01:49 <ihope> Gratis and libre.
01:01:50 <RodgerTheGreat> however, I don't particularly see a need to borrow words from another language for this one.
01:02:00 <ihope> Oh come on.
01:02:07 <ihope> We could call it LOSS instead of FOSS!
01:02:14 <ihope> Except that... well, LOSS isn't a good name for anything.
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01:02:59 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: The problem is that our language tries to equate both concepts. "gratis != libre" and "free != free" end up looking *completely* different. . .
01:03:00 <ihope> What's Spanish for "open-source"?
01:03:07 <RodgerTheGreat> Freeware and Openware
01:03:17 <pikhq> Besides, we've borrowed everything *else* from other languages, anyways. ;)
01:03:32 <ihope> Oh, just drop the "open-source" bit and call it SWL.
01:03:38 <ihope> And SWG.
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02:09:20 <ihope> There seems to be a foodfest over in some other channel on some other network.
02:09:28 <ihope> Let's get calamari in there, eh?
02:11:30 <pikhq> He'd get eaten.
02:11:44 <ihope> Everybody else is getting eaten, though.
02:12:23 <ihope> <Cheese> Cheese Muffin Pepperoni Pez Pizza and spoony to eat it with
02:12:31 <ihope> * Pepperoni wonders how a Pez Pizza would taste.
02:12:42 <ihope> <Pizza> What if I don't want Muffin on my Pizza?
02:12:45 <ihope> Etc.
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02:16:54 * pikhq still lacks a 100% working BFM itoa. . . :'(
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02:18:01 <pikhq> Or, more specifically, I lack a 100% working BFM divmod.bfm.
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02:43:24 <pikhq> The damned thing somehow manages to go into an infinite loop when doing 10/10.
02:45:43 <pikhq> I *thought* it was doing something like 0/10 (and therefore changed itoa to not do 0/10), but it's not doing that at all. . . GRRAWR!
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17:24:31 <pikhq> Anyone here happen to remember a simple divide by 10 Brainfuck code segment?
17:24:46 <pikhq> I *think* it'll make itoa a lot simpler.
17:24:51 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
17:29:25 <pikhq> (it'll *probably* end up being really simple and all. . .)
17:30:08 <GregorR-L> [-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[->+<]]]]]]]]]]
17:30:09 <GregorR-L> :P
17:30:26 <pikhq> Yeah. . .
17:30:39 <pikhq> Now, the question is. . . How can I get it to do both div and mod?
17:30:59 <pikhq> (simple, again XD).
17:31:21 <GregorR-L> [>>+<<-[>>+<<-[>>+<<-[>>+<<-[>>+<<-[>>+<<-[>>+<<-[>>+<<-[>>+<<-[->+>---------<<]]]]]]]]]]
17:31:35 <GregorR-L> Untested, ugly, and probably doesn't work :P
17:31:40 <pikhq> I'll test it.
17:33:40 <pikhq> So, which cell would have the dividend, which the mod, and which is temp?
17:33:46 <pikhq> (or is that an answer?)
17:34:10 <GregorR-L> 1st should be the initial value (which will be destroyed), second div, third mod.
17:34:20 <GregorR-L> Should probably swap div and mod for smaller code, but *shrugs*
17:34:31 <pikhq> Mmkay.
17:34:32 <GregorR-L> Oh wait, DEFINITELY won't work now that I think about it XD
17:34:46 <pikhq> Curses.
17:34:51 <pikhq> What's wrong with it?
17:35:14 <GregorR-L> It'll get caught in the smallest loop, so it'll only do the division right for numbers < 20
17:35:23 <pikhq> Argh.
17:42:44 <pikhq> And, BTW, your suggestion for div10 doesn't work, either. ;)
17:42:54 <pikhq> Unles, that is, 15/10=6
17:44:08 <GregorR-L> OH BUT IT DOES
17:44:30 <GregorR-L> Oh right ... it'll get caught in that inner loop on the first 10 actually ...
17:44:56 * pikhq is not going to listen to you any more
17:45:06 <GregorR-L> Good.
17:45:18 <pikhq> Anyone *else* want to make a suggestion?
17:45:39 <GregorR-L> Hey, I'm at work, cut me some slack :P
17:45:46 <pikhq> Someone who's willing to test their suggestion first, preferably? :p
17:47:00 * pikhq leaves; answer while I'm gone, please
18:44:06 <Razor-X> 3/0 = {R}.
18:44:10 <Razor-X> Yes.
18:44:46 <Razor-X> Ph33r my math knowledge.
18:45:04 * pikhq doesn't fear
18:45:12 * pikhq wonders why nobody's tried to answer
18:45:34 <pikhq> Oh well; I've got something resembling an idea, at least.
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19:36:17 <Razor-X> No. It doesen't.
19:48:36 <Razor-X> Is it possible to receive a malformed UDP packet, or is it either receive or not receive?
19:52:46 <calamari> [AMD] /c/bf>cat div10.bf
19:52:47 <calamari> ==== ==== ==== ==== ====
19:52:47 <calamari> num  ten  tmp  bool div
19:52:47 <calamari> ==== ==== ==== ==== ====
19:52:47 <calamari> >+++++++++<
19:52:48 <calamari> [
19:52:49 <calamari>  >>>+<<                bool= 1
19:52:52 <calamari>  [>+>[-]<<-]           bool= ten==0
19:52:53 <calamari>  >[<+>-]               ten = tmp
19:52:56 <calamari>  >[<<++++++++++>>>+<-] if ten=0 ten=10  inc div
19:52:57 <calamari>  <<-                   dec ten
19:53:01 <calamari>  <-                    dec num
19:53:04 <calamari> ]
19:53:05 <calamari> >>>>[<<<<+>>>>-]<<<<   copy div to num
19:53:07 <calamari> >[-]<                  clear ten
20:38:01 <Razor-X> Hello?
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22:50:10 <pikhq> calamari: Thanks.
22:52:04 <GregorR-L> * RodgerTheCodin is now known as RodgersOnCodine
22:57:27 <pikhq> *Great*. . .
22:57:59 <pikhq> calamari: That doesn't appear to work.
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2006-10-17:

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02:15:55 * pikhq wonders how he can get divmod to work. . .
02:16:11 * oerjan thinks he just may have done exactly that
02:16:20 <oerjan> just one last test
02:17:04 <oerjan> ok, i found two bugs.
02:17:18 <oerjan> 1. there is no set mod 0 at the beginning
02:18:12 <oerjan> 2. there is no set temp2 0 to get out of the temp2 loop when temp1 happens to be 0. The latter happens with 10/10 which you mentioned in the logs.
02:19:16 <oerjan> oh, and in the tarball bfm.tcl there is one $:location that should be $::location or something.
02:20:06 <oerjan> with these changes i managed to get 10/10, 11/10, 0/10 and 1/10 to work.
02:24:07 <pikhq> Whoohoo!
02:24:19 * pikhq is in retard mod. XD
02:24:21 <pikhq> mode
02:24:52 <pikhq> 3rd bug is fixed in my local copy, BTW.
02:27:35 <oerjan> i suspected so as otherwise you would have problems running at all...
02:32:57 <pikhq> And now, itoa.bfm works.
02:33:14 <pikhq> Now to fix basm.bfm, so that *it* gets the job done right. . .
02:51:35 <pikhq> Which it does.
02:52:21 <pikhq> Unfortunately, *somewhere*, the optimization routine is breaking things; need to find it.
02:56:55 * pikhq becomes somewhat glad that he made optimization optional ;)
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03:03:47 <oerjan> i suspect that is usually a wise choice
03:04:56 <pikhq> I'm starting to become convinced the issue is in itoa. . .
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03:06:49 <pikhq> Yeah, it is.
03:07:00 <pikhq> Somewhere, it's removing a needed cell clear.
03:08:12 <oerjan> suggestion: make a debug mode for the optimiser, where it inserts information about what it has removed.
03:09:20 <pikhq> Agreed; that could be a *very* good idea.
03:09:20 <oerjan> hm, even more: make it insert runtime tests
03:09:24 <pikhq> I've fixed itoa, BTW.
03:10:00 <pikhq> Even better: make the optimization perfect.
03:10:18 <oerjan> instead of removing a [-], changing it into [complain and die]
03:10:48 <oerjan> not necessarily better, since it will probably be broken again.
03:17:59 <pikhq> As the ultimate test, I should probably compile LostKng.b with basm.b. . .
03:19:34 <oerjan> perhaps. for the time being, have you tried compiling basm.b with basm.b?
03:20:45 <pikhq> Good idea.
03:24:49 <pikhq> After some bug fixing, it works.
03:25:17 <pikhq> (outputting numbers in reverse order)
03:26:09 <pikhq> I could probably make this much shorter just by some judicious memory rearrangement. . .
03:28:24 <pikhq> Although, by necessity, it's always going to be a little bit long. . .
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03:36:46 <pikhq> It's broken on LostKng.b
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03:49:31 <pikhq> At least it works right on itself. . . :p
03:50:10 <pikhq> Probably some minor little quirk with handling large amounts of pointer movement. . .
03:51:29 <oerjan> are you storing the length of >>>>>>>> runs in single cells?
03:51:47 <pikhq> Yeah.
03:52:40 <pikhq> Needn't worry for things like ++++ and ----; cells wrap in this implementation.
03:53:00 <pikhq> The >>>> and <<<< bit. . . Yeah, that could use some work.
03:53:48 <pikhq> I think LostKng.b is the only program I'll run into that issue with.
03:54:18 <oerjan> you might run into it with large BFM generated programs.
03:54:30 <oerjan> more than 256 variables.
03:57:15 <pikhq> Large, inefficiently written ones.
03:57:45 <pikhq> But then, most large ones are inefficient. . . :p
03:58:48 <pikhq> Just for the record, basm.bfm is probably the largest BFM generated program out there.
04:00:58 <oerjan> one would expect a "decent" bf compiler to optimize away simple inefficiencies such as long runs and cell moving/copying
04:01:06 <pikhq> Scratch that: basm.bfm is *undoubtedly* the largest BFM generated program.
04:01:28 <oerjan> how big is it?
04:01:44 <pikhq> 17764 characters compiled, according to wc.
04:02:37 <oerjan> but it probably does not have 256 variables, or it would be terrible to write.
04:02:46 <pikhq> 704 lines of code.
04:03:07 <pikhq> It's got more lines than bfm.tcl. XD
04:03:24 <pikhq> BTW, it has 174 variables. . .
04:03:58 <oerjan> sounds pretty terrible already
04:04:12 <pikhq> Most of which are in hardcoded strings in strings.cur.bfm (p+=, p-=, the whole string of stuff to start the C program off. . .).
04:04:47 <pikhq> It'd get even more terrible if I started to set those strings in an optimized manner (strings.cur.bfm just does large strings of "++++".).
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04:13:04 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/basm.b
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04:18:40 <Asztal> Software Title    Qty    Item    Price/Unit    Total
04:18:42 <Asztal> Visual Studio 2005 Professional Edition CD1 1 Download £0.00 GBP £0.00 GBP
04:18:43 <Asztal> Visual Studio 2005 Professional Edition CD2 1 Download £0.00 GBP £0.00 GBP
04:18:45 <Asztal> Windows XP Professional with SP2 (Single User) ISO Image 1 Download £0.00 GBP £0.00 GBP
04:18:46 <Asztal> Total for this order £0.00 GBP
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04:18:49 <Asztal> Excellent.
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04:28:15 <dbc> [<<+<,>>>[-]<<<[
04:28:31 <dbc> (looking at this)
04:29:21 <oerjan> seems a bit inefficient
04:30:02 <oerjan> [[-]<<+<,[ being equivalent
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04:32:58 <Asztal> and I thought I was slightly insane
04:34:01 <oerjan> we all are insane here. what's the matter?
04:35:56 <Asztal> I'm sorry, it's just that from here it's like you speak fluent brainfuck
04:38:53 <oerjan> now _that_ is quite normal. to get my certificate of insanity, i had to write an unlambda interpreter in INTERCAL.
04:39:53 <Asztal> I think the most complicated I ever got was quicksort. >:(
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05:10:10 <dbc> I don't 100% get the reason for using dynamic memory allocation in the C code either.
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05:34:24 <dbc> Actually, in context [-<<+<,[ is equivalent.
05:35:30 <dbc> It shouldn't be hard to make a brainfuck optimizer. It would really only benefit macro-generated code, which is why I haven't done it yet.
05:36:52 <GregorR-L> C2BF 8-D
05:37:10 <dbc> (One thing I have done is a profiler to spot outright dead code. Macro-generated code often has big swaths of it. Cleaning the dead code out of basm.b, and then removing consequent []s and <>s and so on, reduces its size by 15%...
05:37:48 <dbc> which wouldn't be impressive if basm.b weren't 70% brute force initialization to start with.
06:40:19 <dbc> )
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07:27:33 <GregorR-L> Plof + operator overloading.  Possible?
07:27:34 <GregorR-L> Hmmmmmmmm
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11:03:08 <SimonRC> # 14 days 'til Halloween, Halloween, Halloween.  14 days 'til Halloween, Silver Shamrock. #
11:03:14 <SimonRC> # 14 days 'til Halloween, Halloween, Halloween.  14 days 'til Halloween, Silver Shamrock. #
11:03:22 <SimonRC> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_III:_Season_of_the_Witch
11:03:30 * SimonRC goes to a lecture not intended for him
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12:26:01 <SimonRC> hi
13:16:07 <pikhq> Mmkay, *. . . That was my first attempt; I'm going to do it *efficiently* later. ;)
13:17:06 <pikhq> (that's about how my first attempt would look, even if doing hand coding. . .)
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17:24:50 <pikhq> Now, we begin to optimize. . .
17:25:23 <pikhq> b
17:30:53 <pikhq> Removed 32 characters. . .
17:32:46 <pikhq> Make that 50. . .
17:33:04 <SimonRC> what program?
17:33:55 <pikhq> basm.b
17:34:05 <pikhq> 58. . .
17:34:59 <SimonRC> ah, ok
17:38:19 <pikhq> 564. . .
17:38:28 <SimonRC> ??!
17:38:34 <pikhq> (just by some judicious memory rearrangement)
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18:54:54 <pikhq> I'm currently short of my previous version by 607.
19:03:55 <pikhq> 624.
19:13:29 <pikhq> It'll be much shorter if I decide to get the header done right.
19:16:21 <pikhq> 664. . .
19:31:25 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/basm.opt.b Any suggestions (beyond fixing that huge string of plusses at the front)?
19:41:52 <jix> what's that?
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23:00:17 <pikhq> jix: Brainfuck-> C compiler in Brainfuck (version 2).
23:00:23 <jix> ah
23:00:40 <pikhq> Slightly more efficient version. ;)
23:00:48 <jix> should be possible to do it in a lot less bytes
23:01:33 <pikhq> Yeah, yeah, yeah. . .
23:01:38 <pikhq> Haven't fixed up the header yet.
23:03:38 <jix> huh why calloc and not malloc?
23:04:11 -!- Robdgreat has quit.
23:04:42 <pikhq> jix: calloc also sets all of the allocated memory to 0.
23:06:48 <pikhq> (my usual method of Brainfuck coding, BTW: get it working, get it optimised)
23:18:17 <pikhq> And we now have it down 685 characters from my initial attempt. . . Without removing the obvious string of +s.
23:19:33 <pikhq> And the new build is up. . .
23:23:58 <pikhq> Any suggestions (aside from the obvious, "That's way too much '+'s!")?
23:29:06 <jix> is it done by hand
23:29:09 <jix> ?
23:29:19 <pikhq> No, it's not. . .
23:29:32 <pikhq> Largest BFM program in existence.
23:29:48 <pikhq> Larger than BFM itself, actually.
23:30:47 <pikhq> And I'm not even done with it; that huge string of plusses is set for rewrite as soon as I can bother.
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23:58:50 <pikhq> Gregor!
23:59:09 <GregorR-L> Foobar!
23:59:23 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/basm.opt.b See anything that I can optimize (aside from that large string of "+"s)?
23:59:40 <GregorR-L> <-- in class
23:59:47 <pikhq> Oh.
23:59:50 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. let's see here...
23:59:57 <pikhq> Which class?

2006-10-18:

00:00:23 <GregorR-L> BufferedReaderIterator
00:00:48 <RodgerTheGreat> Java.
00:00:55 <RodgerTheGreat> Java5, sounds like.
00:01:04 <GregorR-L> Idonno, just made that up :P
00:01:10 <RodgerTheGreat> :(
00:01:20 <GregorR-L> And no f***ing way I'm taking a Java class.
00:01:42 <RodgerTheGreat> well, we're required to where I'm going.
00:01:50 <GregorR-L> Ha-HAH
00:02:07 <pikhq> If that's a requirement at a college, I'll leave.
00:02:15 <RodgerTheGreat> go right ahead.
00:02:21 <GregorR-L> If you learn C++, you basically learn Java by default, just dumb down all your knowledge to what a child with down syndrome could understand.
00:02:25 <pikhq> I don't care if it's friggin' MIT, I'll leave. . .
00:03:59 <RodgerTheGreat> you can complain about languages all you want, but in the end that solves nothing. As a rule, I never piss and moan about the languages I need to use.
00:04:44 <pikhq> I piss and moan about the languages I *don't* need to use. :p
00:06:04 <RodgerTheGreat> and I'd be willing to bet that you two are just complaining about how it "isn't like C" and it doesn't compile to machinecode, rather than something meaningful to criticize about it as a language. You're just whining about Java because that's what everyone does.
00:06:26 <RodgerTheGreat> there's something you can learn from every language.
00:06:38 <RodgerTheGreat> that's the entire POINT of esoteric programming.
00:06:47 <GregorR-L> No, that's not true.
00:06:54 <GregorR-L> I'm whining about Java because I learned it, and it pains me.
00:07:08 <GregorR-L> Java has a large number of silly issues, many spanning from its ridiculous dependency on OOP.
00:07:17 <RodgerTheGreat> it's not a
00:07:31 <RodgerTheGreat> "dependency", it's how the language is designed.
00:07:42 <GregorR-L> Yes - and it puts a dependency on your code.
00:07:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I think it's a more conceptually pure language than C for that very reason.
00:08:04 <GregorR-L> Yes - but conceptual purity is bad at the cost of flexibility.
00:08:11 * pikhq actually doesn't like C that much, either
00:08:46 <GregorR-L> Attempts at purity box programmers into corners and require them to use paradigms that may or may not actually fit what they're coding well.
00:08:46 <pikhq> C has the following going for it: it gets the job done.
00:08:50 <pikhq> That's about it. . .
00:09:22 <RodgerTheGreat> the point of java is not to be powerful, it's to enforce strict object-oriented design, which is why it's a good language for teaching algorithms and so on with.
00:09:23 <GregorR-L> C is a very pure abstraction of ASM, which is what it has going for it.
00:09:35 <pikhq> GregorR-L: That's *why* it gets the job done.
00:09:50 <GregorR-L> Mind you, I prefer other languages to C ;)
00:09:54 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Lisp is a better language for teaching algorithms.
00:10:10 <GregorR-L> Lisp is a better language for teaching /particular/ algorithms.
00:10:19 <GregorR-L> If you're going to teach OO concepts with Lisp, you're an idiot.
00:10:24 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Well, true. . .
00:10:29 <RodgerTheGreat> true, but it isn't a very good language for teaching OOP (even though YES, you can use it for that purpose)
00:10:35 <jix> java isn't really object orientated
00:10:36 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah
00:10:50 <RodgerTheGreat> jix: what?
00:10:57 <pikhq> GregorR-L: His point was teaching *algorithms* with Java was a good use of it (which it isn't particularly good for). . .
00:10:57 <jix> there are things which arn't objects
00:11:20 <jix> AFAIK ints arn't objects
00:11:25 <jix> (you have to use wrapper classes)
00:11:28 <GregorR-L> pikhq: I agree with RodgerTheGreat on that point.
00:11:29 <RodgerTheGreat> they're primitives.
00:11:33 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: why?
00:11:37 <GregorR-L> But I managed to learn OO before Java.
00:11:38 <jix> that isn't very OOish
00:11:39 <pikhq> Python, I *think*, is a good deal better for OOP (although I've not used it, so take that with a pinch of salt).
00:11:50 <jix> pikhq: yes it is
00:12:12 <GregorR-L> OK, paying attn in class now :P
00:12:13 <GregorR-L> </Gregor>
00:34:23 <Asztal> I'd say ruby
00:34:25 <Asztal> :P
00:34:56 <GregorR-L> ORK!
00:36:26 <pikhq> When the program starts:
00:36:33 <pikhq> There is a mathematician named Gregor
00:36:43 <pikhq> There is a language called COBOL.
00:36:55 <pikhq> Gregor's first argument is 1.
00:37:07 <pikhq> Gregor's second argument is COBOL.
00:37:15 <pikhq> Gregor is to add.
00:37:43 <pikhq> ORK is to become Gregor's argument.
00:37:47 <pikhq> XD
00:37:55 <GregorR-L> :P
00:37:58 <GregorR-L> Plof! :P
00:38:20 <Asztal> o.0
00:38:55 <pikhq> Asztal: ORK is more verbose than COBOL; deal with it.
00:39:18 <pikhq> Thus why it should be either that or ADD 1 TO COBOL GIVING COBOL.
00:40:53 <Asztal> I don't mind the verboseness, I just wondered about what Mathematician and Language are meant to mean :)
00:42:35 <pikhq> We created two objects: an instance of "mathematician" called Gregor, and an instance of "language" called COBOL.
00:42:44 <pikhq> "mathematician" is an object for doing arithmetic.
00:42:52 <pikhq> "language" is an object I made up.
00:43:55 * Asztal reads the wiki page
00:46:11 <pikhq> I prefer Glass; less verbose, more object oriented.
00:46:28 <pikhq> Although ORK has one advantage. . . I can understand how its compiler works! :p
00:48:23 <GregorR-L> Glass interp = works by magic.
00:52:55 <pikhq> That bad?
00:53:19 <GregorR-L> Idonno, I remember almost nothing about it :P
00:54:40 <jix> http://monome.org/pages/40h << this is really cool but expensive as hell
00:54:50 <jix> idea: do it yourself for < 50$
00:54:53 <jix> should be possible
00:56:07 <jix> my current circuit (just idea nothing built) consists of 64 leds 64 buttons 8 8bit latches an atmega32 micro controller and some usb gpio chip
00:56:44 <Razor-X> Can the Linux kernel hand you malformed UDP packets, or is it always packet arrives or no arrives?
00:57:16 <pikhq> The UDP *spec* doesn't allow you to receive malformed UDP packets.
00:57:28 <Razor-X> Aha. I haven't read the RFC for UDP just yet.
00:57:39 <Razor-X> Awesomuh.
00:57:43 <pikhq> Not sure if Linux actually follows the RFC, but that's what the RFC says. ;)
00:58:11 <Razor-X> Linux takes it a step further. If you use SOCK_DGRAM, it autoverifies the checksum and only then passes on the packet.
00:58:47 <jix> but no one cares!
00:58:54 <Razor-X> I do.
00:59:03 <pikhq> Um. . . That's the defined UDP behavior. . .
00:59:06 <jix> about my do it yourself 40h thing?
00:59:31 <Razor-X> pikhq: But you're supposed to implement the checksum checking on your own.
00:59:45 <Razor-X> You do, if you use SOCK_RAW, but I don't want to go *that* low level.
00:59:52 <Razor-X> jix: Nope ;P
01:00:00 <pikhq> Razor-X: That's an issue with the BSD sockets API, not the UDP spec. . .
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01:00:15 <Razor-X> pikhq: Fine. Pshhh.
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02:52:22 * Sgeo is implementing http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainscrambler
02:52:27 <Sgeo> I need more details though
02:52:42 <Sgeo> I'm already assuming I can't + or - without a * somewhere
02:52:56 <Sgeo> Is the number output as ASCII
02:52:57 <Sgeo> ?
02:54:36 <pikhq> Probably.
02:54:42 <Sgeo> ty
02:55:07 <Sgeo> And when I move the current number, do I rotate? Is the version of curnum on the original stack deleted?
02:58:21 <Sgeo> Oh, and I'm making numbers below -1 illegal
02:59:38 <pikhq> Just make numbers wrap.
02:59:47 <pikhq> :p
03:00:57 <Sgeo> Wrap to what?
03:01:35 <Sgeo> Not that I'm doing it >.<
03:16:56 <Sgeo> I can finish up a non-looping demo now >.<
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03:22:56 * Sgeo needs some test code
03:23:47 <pikhq> ,[.,]
03:25:49 <Sgeo> It's a non-looping demo version
03:25:55 <Sgeo> >.<
03:25:59 * Sgeo wrote some test code
03:25:59 <pikhq> ++++++++++.
03:42:35 <Sgeo> Hmm
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04:24:41 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/brainscrambler_noloop.py.txt
04:25:54 <Sgeo> Any comments before I go to sleep?
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14:23:34 <pikhq> Mmkay. . . Discovered that LostKng.b, with line breaks, compiles correctly on basm.b. . .
14:24:00 <pikhq> No doubt the issue is that I was using a version with line breaks stripped, causing the pointer's movement to work somewhat oddly.
14:27:09 <pikhq> And there is *one* other issue with the compiler; it will output 0x00 before 1 or 2 digit numbers (easier than using conditional output there. . .).
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14:27:31 <pikhq> This, fortunately, has only one side effect: GCC gives a lot of warnings.
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14:42:22 <pgimeno> pikhq: just wondering... wouldn't it be easier to generate octal numbers rather than decimal?
14:46:51 <pgimeno> they could be fixed length that way
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15:09:52 <calamari> Looks like a Pentium 166 is too slow to render php / python wiki pages
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17:44:57 <pikhq> pgimeno: You want to write the macro for that? :p
17:45:44 <pikhq> pgimeno: Besides, *all* that happens is "WARNING: Misplaced null char" from GCC; tr -d /0 or just ignoring it leaves it still working.
17:46:13 <pgimeno> is it gcc only? :)
17:46:27 * pikhq has confirmed that the issue with his compiler is with an overflow on *some* counter; compiling the newlined version works
17:46:31 <pikhq> pgimeno: Probably.
17:46:39 <pikhq> It wouldn't be *that* hard to fix, anyways. . .
17:46:57 <pikhq> The cells are cleared after outputting it, anyways.
17:48:40 <pgimeno> if you have a divide-by-ten it wouldn't be hard to do a divide-by-eight
17:50:11 <pikhq> It's a generalised div and mod. . .
17:50:53 <pikhq> I could probably A) switch to divide-by-eight B) make it loads shorter by doing divide-by-eight specifically. . .
17:51:15 <pgimeno> you can generate 4-digit numbers from 0000 to 0377 and forget about length etc
17:51:24 <pikhq> But, then, I don't feel like it at the moment. :p
17:51:55 <pgimeno> k
17:52:50 <pikhq> basm.b seems fairly fast when compiled to C. . .
17:52:58 <pikhq> Compiles LostKng.b in 5 seconds.
17:55:16 <pikhq> . . . Unfortunately, GCC spends a good deal more time working on it.
17:55:25 <pikhq> Nearly 2 minutes.
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18:32:15 <fr34k> hello
18:37:58 <fr34k> hello?
18:38:05 -!- fr34k has changed nick to boblol.
18:42:34 <pgimeno> hi boblol
18:54:56 <pikhq> Hello.
18:57:31 * pikhq starts rewriting major chunks of basm.bfm
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19:13:22 <pikhq> This is going to be a big job. . .
19:15:32 <pikhq> One not at all helped by the massiveness of what needs to be put into memory.
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19:36:29 * pikhq has 18 characters done for the new set of strings. . . Dear God, that's a lot. :/
19:36:48 <pikhq> 18 down, 140 to go. :'(
19:38:33 * pikhq is going elsewhere, for sanity's sake
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20:25:36 <Sgeo> Any comments on my code
20:25:38 <Sgeo> ?
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20:31:45 <dbc> Leaving aside malloc vs. calloc, why not just declare the array as a global, "char a[30000], *p=a;"?
20:33:59 <dbc> If the memory usage is fixed, why allocate it dynamically?
20:43:36 <jix> because calloc fills it with zeros? .... char a[30000] gets filled with zeros too but i'm not sure if that is guaranteed...
20:44:24 <dbc> It is if it's a global.
20:44:30 <jix> ah ok
20:44:37 <jix> when the c specs say so
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22:26:21 <pikhq> dbc: Gregor complained when I did it that way. XD
22:26:55 <pikhq> Damned if I do, damned if I don't.
22:39:33 <GregorR> The memory  usage should not be fixed.
22:39:42 <GregorR> If the memory usage is fixed, sure, do it globally.
22:39:49 <GregorR> But if it's fixed, you've written a worthless language.
22:55:53 <ghostless> i just started using the fungus IDE and writing befunge...and whenever i try to use a & for number input it skips my next instruction...i end up having to put a number after it just to correct it...thats not normal right?
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23:00:17 <calamari> hi
23:31:12 <RodgerTheGreat> hi
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23:56:27 <Razor-X> My take on the CS world for the week/day/moment: Why the emphasis on OO? Most OO concepts are useless in all but the largest projects, and only in certain ways.
23:56:45 <Razor-X> *and only useful in certain styles of projects.
23:58:05 <Razor-X> Anything past Classes, Methods, public/private model, and basic inheritance is useless complication IMO.
23:58:19 <Razor-X> And constructors and destructors, of course.
23:58:23 <RodgerTheGreat> well, it makes it easy to re-use code or work as a group.
23:59:01 <Razor-X> I've looked at both Java and C++ from an OOP point of view. I'll have to disagree with pikhq and say that Java's implementation of OOP is LEAGUES better. But it's still, IMO, unneccessary programmer overhead.
23:59:24 <Razor-X> I've never worked with code that needs anything more than what I listed above.
23:59:27 * RodgerTheGreat shrugs

2006-10-19:

00:00:01 <Razor-X> C++ is HORRIBLE when it comes to unneccessary programmer overhead. OOP becomes so abstract it becomes a theory of its own to work with.
00:02:14 <Razor-X> I guess my real complaint about the CS world is why it's attempting to create a dogma and raise a bunch of new coders that swear by one-and-only-one style, taking out the entire fun part of programming.
00:03:48 <GregorR> Agreed.
00:04:02 <GregorR> They're pushing OOP as the one paradigm to rule them all.
00:04:05 <GregorR> And it's ridiculous.
00:04:10 <Razor-X> Exactly.
00:04:21 <Razor-X> I'm apalled that they teach OOP *theory* at a high school level.
00:04:44 <GregorR> I don't think it's so wrong to teach OO - it's useful.
00:04:53 <GregorR> It's just not /the one/.
00:04:55 <Razor-X> But a class devoted *only* to theory.
00:05:07 <Razor-X> And that's the only upper-level CS class the local rich private school has.
00:05:22 <Razor-X> Where's functional programming? Where's algorithms? Where's bit fields? Where's parsing/grammars? Where's logical style?
00:06:03 <Razor-X> They use Smalltalk, by the way.
00:06:34 <GregorR> XD
00:06:42 <GregorR> Prepare for tomorrow with the language of yesterday :P
00:06:47 <Razor-X> Heh.
00:07:00 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:07:18 <Razor-X> Sadly, systems programming and algorithm programming is dying. So much so that I hypothesize that the OSS world will have a lack of new blood into systems programming because it's becoming so deprecated.
00:08:54 <calamari> Razor-X: what good is functional programming?  I've only really done procedural/OO
00:09:13 <Razor-X> calamari: I prefer the style, personally. It suits my idioms well.
00:09:41 <Razor-X> Functional and procedural are my most comfortable places. I like OOP, but after a while it just starts hampering my coding style.
00:09:47 <calamari> I mean, which types of programs is it suited for?
00:09:54 <Razor-X> Algorithms.
00:10:23 <calamari> can you be more specific?
00:10:32 <Razor-X> Hmmm...
00:10:39 <GregorR> AI
00:10:46 <Razor-X> Not just AI.
00:10:52 <GregorR> I'm being specific, Razor-X.
00:10:56 <Razor-X> True.
00:10:57 <GregorR> Not complete.
00:11:11 <GregorR> AI is one field in particular that functional programming shines in.
00:11:16 <Razor-X> It's great with symbolic processing, parsing, mathematical simulation....
00:11:43 <GregorR> I don't know what you mean particularly by "mathematical simulation", but to the others I'll agree.
00:11:44 <Razor-X> The first two are pretty much the same, huh? :P
00:12:02 <Razor-X> GregorR: Simulate an ANN. It's just a bunch of formulas, right?
00:12:07 <GregorR> Tokenizing and parsing?  Related :P
00:12:11 <GregorR> AH, OK.
00:12:34 <GregorR> Right, anything that has its theory solidly in mathematics and therefore its algorithms in mathematical formula will be more easily implementable by a functional language.
00:12:59 <Razor-X> Definitely.
00:13:04 <calamari> gotcha
00:13:08 <calamari> thanks
00:13:39 <Razor-X> Lisp specifically is very good with OOP in terms of ``high-fallutin'-OOP'', believe it or not. Check out Lisp's CLOS (Common Lisp Object System) and Scheme's Tiny CLOS.
00:13:48 <GregorR> Imperative languages are more tied to a sequence of operations, whereas function programming is more tied to the formulas and algorithms involved in the generation of solutions.
00:14:12 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/plof/ muahahaha :P
00:14:24 <Razor-X> :P
00:16:02 <Razor-X> My main problem with C is that I think pointers are shoddily implemented. I think they could make the abstraction cleaner, IMO.
00:16:35 <GregorR> I don't know that I'd agree without some particulars.
00:16:42 <Razor-X> But definitely, I haven't found much to beat C at a low level.
00:18:05 <Razor-X> *Are* there any other low-level languages save C?
00:18:12 <Razor-X> (Other than ASM, duh.)
00:18:16 <Asztal> B?
00:18:23 <RodgerTheGreat> BASIC and POKE statements.
00:18:30 <GregorR> Of course.  PL/1, Pascal ...
00:18:32 <Razor-X> I'm excluding B, FORTRAN, and ALGOL.
00:18:42 <Razor-X> And other languages from that era.
00:18:44 <GregorR> lol
00:18:51 <GregorR> C has dominated the area for obvious reasons.
00:18:53 <Razor-X> GregorR: Hmmm. Pascal is low level?
00:19:10 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: True.
00:19:23 <Razor-X> I mean, one could argue that Forth is even *more* low level than C :P.
00:19:26 <GregorR> Depends on your definition of low-level I guess ^^
00:19:46 <Razor-X> GregorR: Do you play directly with the memory, allocate memory, etc?
00:20:06 <GregorR> All the time.  In Pascal?  Idonno.
00:20:14 <Razor-X> :P
00:20:32 <GregorR> But you don't do that in C, either, you call a function 'malloc' which is usually defined by a combination of ASM and kernel garbage.
00:20:43 <RodgerTheGreat> I think that being able to load and execute arbitrary machinecode (or something that *becomes* machinecode) means you're officially low-level.
00:21:01 <Razor-X> Well, alright then. 'malloc'-level.
00:21:22 <Razor-X> Even ASM using the Linux kernel is pretty high level compared to using only the BIOS.
00:21:35 <Razor-X> POSIX-compatible kernels in general, I believe.
00:21:49 <GregorR> Definitely.
00:26:33 <Razor-X> One more C complaint: I don't know *what* K&R were smoking when they said that C was platform independant, but it's NOT.
00:28:10 <GregorR> C is exceptionally platform-independent, so long as we restrict ourselves to 8-bit imperative platforms.
00:28:41 <GregorR> 8-bit and multiples thereof
00:29:18 <calamari> RodgerTheGreat: by your definition then basica/gwbasic call statement makes it low level? :)
00:29:31 <RodgerTheGreat> exactly.
00:29:45 <calamari> basic is a high level language
00:29:47 <RodgerTheGreat> POKE+CALL() = unlimited power
00:29:58 <calamari> hehe
00:30:24 * calamari reads back.. oh you aid that already
00:30:26 <calamari> said
00:30:39 <RodgerTheGreat> the way I see it, when you use those statements effectively, you have something pretty much as powerful as C, and a hell of a lot more fun to code in.
00:30:54 <RodgerTheGreat> when you code in BASIC like *I* do, it's an esolang. :D
00:30:54 <calamari> up to a point
00:30:58 <Razor-X> Well, not always, again.
00:31:12 <calamari> I was having a great time coding my 5200 basic compiler in quickbasic extended
00:31:17 <RodgerTheGreat> to each their own.
00:31:24 <calamari> at least until I hit the 64k code page size limit
00:31:32 <Razor-X> Now I'm creating packets. I don't think anything but C, or seemingly Pascal, will be effective here.
00:31:57 <calamari> then the project effectively ended
00:31:59 <Razor-X> But I'm a big lover of modern distillations of BASIC.
00:32:27 <calamari> I split it off into two modules (or whatever they were called).. but then the code because a huge mess
00:32:57 <calamari> actually it was already.. .. so it became MORE of a mess ;)
00:32:57 <RodgerTheGreat> modern distillations of BASIC meaning DarkBASIC, SmallBASIC, and the like?
00:33:09 <Razor-X> QuickBASIC is modern enough too.
00:33:12 <calamari> visualbasic ftw
00:33:16 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, ok
00:33:25 <calamari> ^^ that was a joke ;)
00:33:30 <Razor-X> ... I hope so :D
00:33:32 * RodgerTheGreat convulses at the sound of the v-word
00:33:54 <Razor-X> BitTorrent cheats :(
00:34:01 <Razor-X> It writes to file. It cheats.
00:34:46 <RodgerTheGreat> :/
00:34:54 <calamari> see.. I'd never fit in there.. I have win2003 installed in the other partition.. with vb, vc++ etc
00:35:29 <Razor-X> QBASIC was where I started a long time ago. It was definitely a lot of fun.
00:35:50 <RodgerTheGreat> Macintosh QBASIC was my first programming language. :)
00:35:52 <calamari> yeah, I started one of my friends on qbasic.. he is now a programmer for the university of arizona
00:35:57 <Razor-X> I'm not that old :D
00:35:59 <calamari> lol!
00:36:03 <calamari> the mac qbasic was so bad
00:36:05 <Razor-X> QBASIC was dying when I started using it.
00:36:15 <calamari> I started on gwbasic
00:36:33 <Razor-X> I came into programming when C++ was ``all the rage''.
00:36:33 <calamari> of course I should have graduated 6 years ago so I'm extra old
00:36:42 <Razor-X> More like ``all the hallucination''.
00:37:11 <calamari> GregorR: are you still a die hard c++ fan, or do you like d better now?
00:37:28 <jix> c rules them all
00:37:30 <RodgerTheGreat> I programmed in isolation for about 3 years before my family got internet access- by that time, I'd graduated to DarkBASIC and the pc version of QB, and honed my skills.
00:37:39 <calamari> bf rules them all
00:37:51 <jix> oh i should have added a ^^ i guess
00:37:56 <Razor-X> I ought'ta try out Pascal.
00:38:03 <RodgerTheGreat> and since you can compile a special form of BASIC *into* BF, BASIC rules all!
00:38:14 <Razor-X> But I've written a whole bunch of C code here already, so it'll be pointless to rewrite this in C.
00:38:15 <jix> but i can compile BF into BASIC!
00:38:24 <GregorR> calamari: I prefer C.
00:38:24 <jix> so uh NAGH we get infinite recursion
00:38:26 <GregorR> Erm
00:38:28 <GregorR> calamari: I prefer D.
00:38:29 <Razor-X> Machine code rules EVERYTHING.
00:38:37 <GregorR> calamari: But I still like C++, more than anybody on #d ;)
00:38:39 <Razor-X> EVERYTHING compiles to machine code.
00:38:48 <Razor-X> HAH!
00:38:53 <jix> Razor-X: VHDL doesn't
00:38:58 <jix> VHDL compiles into machines ^^
00:39:01 <Razor-X> jix: But VHDL simulators do.
00:39:05 <calamari> the bf cpu.. bf is machine code!
00:39:18 <Razor-X> I have a spec for a BF CPU too.
00:39:20 <jix> Razor-X: but you don't use them for real things
00:39:29 <jix> you use them for development
00:39:35 <jix> but then you produce REAL HARDWARE
00:39:37 <Razor-X> jix: You do use them if you're in high school and can't afford an FPGA.
00:40:09 <jix> Razor-X: arn't some of the better simulators more expensive than cheap fpgas?
00:40:19 <Razor-X> jix: Yeah.
00:40:26 <jix> the small fpga i used to use was like $100
00:40:40 <Razor-X> And your school uses coffee cups from McDonalds donated in the 70's as calorimeters, so the school's obviously out.
00:40:50 <jix> uhm and wait what's high school?
00:40:54 <jix> what would that be in germany?
00:41:12 <Razor-X> There's not that much comparison... the schooling before college.
00:41:21 <jix> and what is college ^^?
00:41:25 <Razor-X> University.
00:41:28 <jix> ah ok
00:41:47 <jix> so it's a bit like oberstufe
00:41:48 <Razor-X> But in Germany, you specialize into Practical and Theoretical, which does not happen in the USA.
00:42:02 <jix> Razor-X: we do what?
00:42:06 <Razor-X> Don't you?
00:42:17 <jix> Razor-X: would be kind of new to me
00:42:18 <Razor-X> Don't you pick your alley of study before entering university?
00:42:41 <Razor-X> Or at least, your general area.
00:42:43 <jix> Razor-X: in grade 11 to 13 you pick so called leistungskurse... that are your two main subjects
00:42:49 <jix> but you can study whatever you want
00:42:54 <jix> because you get the allgemeine hochschulreife
00:42:57 <Razor-X> jix: Yes, that doesen't happen here at all.
00:43:07 <GregorR> It does in some places.
00:43:14 <GregorR> Not so formal, but informally.
00:43:17 <jix> so you can do something in grade 11-13 but something different at university
00:43:31 <Razor-X> True. Because you do end up taking advanced classes, generally, in the subjects you're interested in.
00:43:53 <Razor-X> Or, if you're like me, you try and take advanced classes in everything and start a failing juggling attempt.
00:44:23 <Razor-X> :P
00:44:34 <jix> uhm wait is grade the right word?
00:44:41 <Razor-X> Yeah, it is.
00:44:49 <jix> Razor-X: in which grade are you?
00:44:58 <Razor-X> 11. 12 is the last high school year here.
00:45:10 * jix is in 11 too
00:45:14 <jix> it's the first year in the oberstufe
00:46:12 <jix> hmm  "Advanced Placement" is something like the leistungskurse (sais wikipedia)
00:46:13 <RodgerTheGreat> Razor-X: there is light at the end of the tunnel. College is freaking awesome.
00:47:18 <RodgerTheGreat> that thought was the one thing that kept me going in high-school, and it's true!
00:47:57 <jix> oberstufe in germany is great
00:48:29 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
00:48:44 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: Heh. So I've heard.
00:48:51 <RodgerTheGreat> I can only imagine that your public schools don't suck ass in germany.
00:49:03 <RodgerTheGreat> Razor-X: have you thought about where you want to go?
00:49:06 <Razor-X> Yeah. I go to the local income depressed school.
00:49:30 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: MIT is obviously the goal, but I have serious doubts unless I can unveil some great program of my own and present it on the application and hope for recognition.
00:50:14 <Razor-X> Maybe this will be worth something.
00:50:31 <Sgeo> Did anyone respond to me?
00:50:43 <Sgeo> I didn't check this chan until just now
00:50:46 <RodgerTheGreat> to be honest, I didn't really want to go to a school as huge as MIT- MTU is awesome, and I don't need a car to get from class to class.
00:50:48 <Sgeo> So I can't easily scroll up
00:51:06 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: Well, I love the books the MIT folks make.
00:51:20 <Razor-X> But looking at the SICP lectures... they seem slightly less than engaging.
00:51:24 <RodgerTheGreat> there are a number of smaller universities that may not be as famous as MIT, but are nearly as prestigious.
00:51:28 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
00:51:32 <jix> i want to go to the local university...
00:52:04 <Sgeo> Any comments on http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/brainscrambler_noloop.py.txt ?
00:52:34 <jix> Sgeo: yes
00:52:41 <Sgeo> ..
00:52:56 <Razor-X> :P
00:53:12 <RodgerTheGreat> heh
00:53:33 <jix> uh btw i almost forgot to spread my cool new blog into this channel... there might be something about esolangs there in the future: http://method-missing.org/
00:53:37 <Sgeo> The comment is..
00:53:48 <Sgeo> And I don't mean comments /in/ the code
00:53:52 <jix> Sgeo: you have to figure that out yourself :P
00:54:24 <jix> (i have no idea what that code does and thus no comment about it.... )
00:55:55 <Sgeo> It's almost an implementation of http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainscrambler
00:55:59 <Sgeo> It doesn't do loops yet
00:57:11 <RodgerTheGreat> ooh. I just got an idea for a unique EsoLang.
00:57:27 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: tell tell tell!
00:57:33 <Razor-X> If I fork a child process to do something intensive and then blop its product onto stdout, and you have more than one fork, can they write to stdout out of order?
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00:59:33 <RodgerTheGreat> make short program segments of an arbitrarily limited size (say, 256 bytes) containing instruction. call these "Tokens" or something. At runtime, randomly select a specific number (say 10 or however many are in "the bag", whichever is more) are chosen and executed in order. When all the tokens are executed, they're put back in "the bag", shuffled, and new tokens are chosen.
00:59:51 <RodgerTheGreat> the only way to make sure your code does what you want is careful buffering and conditionals.
01:00:22 <RodgerTheGreat> AND, you can affect the probabilities of specific tokens by creating copies of existing ones or inserting new ones into the bag.
01:00:28 <RodgerTheGreat> thoughts?
01:00:28 <Sgeo> Hi bd_
01:00:36 <Razor-X> Interesting.
01:00:54 <Sgeo> Yes, I do think.
01:01:02 <Sgeo> Sorry
01:01:23 <Razor-X> ?
01:01:48 <Sgeo> n/m
01:01:59 <Sgeo> Although this might be the perfect place to ask about something..
01:02:10 <RodgerTheGreat> what did you want to ask?
01:02:17 <Sgeo> This week is "Spirit Week" in my school.
01:02:21 <Razor-X> Did you see my question above, by the way?
01:02:31 <Sgeo> Tomorrow is "Would you still be my friend if I wore this all day"
01:02:49 <Razor-X> Uggh. School spirit :P
01:02:52 <Sgeo> So I wanted to try some sort of "Would you still be my friend if I did not participate" thing
01:03:00 <RodgerTheGreat> haha
01:03:11 <Sgeo> I don't know if I should just go in regular clothes and explain it to everyone
01:03:21 <Razor-X> Is your school particularly spirited?
01:03:35 <RodgerTheGreat> of all the activities on the calendar, I loathed "Spirit week" with the most passion.
01:03:45 <Sgeo> Or if I should have some sort of sigh with "I forgot to bring the really cool idea I had for today"
01:03:55 <Asztal> I don't know what it is, but it sounds awful
01:04:02 <Razor-X> Ours is about 50% diehard Spirit lovers, and 50% I-don't-give-a-care.
01:04:07 <Sgeo> Because I told a lot of people "I have a great idea, but it's a secret"
01:04:21 <Sgeo> So: Sign or no sign, and if sign, what should be the phrasing?
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01:05:54 <RodgerTheGreat> here's a hint: At the first pep assembly my senior year, several students garnered themselves detentions by throwing a vibrator (with the battery compartment conveniently glued shut) at the freshman class. This wasn't considered very unusual.
01:05:58 <RodgerTheGreat> I hated my school.
01:07:17 <Sgeo> If anyone has any ideas relating to what I said, that person or persons should state what the idea(s) is/are.
01:07:49 <RodgerTheGreat> I think the only thing I hated more than being at those assemblies as a freshman was being associated with the asswipes doing it when I was a senior.
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01:09:22 <RodgerTheGreat> welcome back, calamari.
01:09:41 <Sgeo> re calamari
01:09:44 <calamari> thanks
01:09:49 <calamari> my son closed the window
01:10:13 <calamari> he likes to "type" .. and I guess he accidentally pressed the right key combo
01:10:22 <calamari> hehe
01:11:02 <GregorR> Sgeo: Clearly nobody cares or nobody happened to be around and we're all too lazy to read the log.
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02:01:36 <ihope> It's a CakeProphet!
02:02:07 <CakeProphet> ...yuop
02:09:41 * ihope does the ultimate CakeProphet userpage vandalism thing
02:10:27 <Asztal> :O
02:14:31 <ihope> Actually, there are worse vandalism thingies.
02:14:39 <ihope> I Just Made The Entire Page Look Like This.
02:17:27 <ihope> Or maybe I'll simply remove all the text.
02:18:32 <CakeProphet> ihope, maybe
02:19:41 <ihope> Or maybe I'll just remove all the spacing.
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02:21:00 <ihope> Setting the word spacing to -4 pixels seems to do it nicely.
02:25:32 <ihope> There. Now your userpage looks all nice and sparkly.
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02:26:20 <ihope> Well, not sparkly.
02:27:00 <ihope> But nice.
02:36:01 <ihope> Well, not nice either.
02:38:45 <ihope> And it's suddenly time for bed.
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03:59:44 <pikhq> calamari: Hey.
04:01:20 <calamari> hi
04:02:35 * pikhq is in the process of making basm.b more sane
04:03:51 <Razor-X> How close do packets have to be before their places can be shuffled in a queue?
04:04:09 <pikhq> Damned if I know.
04:04:10 <Razor-X> Or is that network architecture dependant?
04:04:20 <pikhq> Probably arch dependant.
04:04:25 <Razor-X> Yay.
04:04:32 <Razor-X> Furrowed forehead.
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04:41:30 <calamari> http://kidsquid.com/files/bf/99bobdsp.b.bz2
04:42:00 <calamari> run with egobfi8, redirect to > /dev/dsp   .. enjoy ;)
04:42:52 <calamari> I'm timing it to see how long it takes.. it's still playing so I don't have an answer yet
04:45:55 <GregorR> I'm terrified of what that may be ...
04:46:30 <calamari> GregorR: be terrified, but give in :)
04:46:42 <GregorR> Please tell me it actually SAYS "ninety ... nine ... bottles of beer on the wall, ... ninety ... nine ... bottles of beeeer, take one down and pass it around, ... ninety ... eight ... bottles of beer on the wall!"
04:46:48 <calamari> it's every bit as bad as you might be expecting :P
04:47:54 <GregorR> OH MY GOD THAT RULES
04:48:17 <GregorR> What did you use to generate the voice?
04:48:30 <calamari> ibm's text to speech webpage
04:48:38 <GregorR> Ha-HAH
04:49:07 <calamari> I'm at 24
04:49:25 <GregorR> It works in a 16-bit envi, but in a 32-bit envi there's what I suspect to be a REALLY long pause between lines.
04:49:42 <calamari> it's using bfbasic so who knows
04:50:37 <GregorR> Post it to 99-bottles-of-beer.net :P
04:50:43 <GregorR> Who cares if it's 740K!
04:51:49 <calamari> 5
04:51:50 <calamari> 4
04:51:57 <calamari> 3
04:52:06 <calamari> 2
04:52:14 <calamari> 1
04:52:24 <calamari> no more :(
04:52:34 <calamari> real    14m43.778s
04:52:46 <GregorR> At least it didn't start going: "two ... hundred ... fifty ... five ... bottles of beer on the wall"
04:52:52 <calamari> LOL
04:53:33 <calamari> I'm guessing I'll probably be the only one to listen to that all the way thru
04:53:42 <GregorR> Almost soytenly :P
04:54:02 <calamari> it does handle the 1 and 0 cases correctly
04:54:26 <GregorR> I tried to convert it to an mp3 but clearly didn't set the input params properly for lame :P
04:55:00 <calamari> ahh so you could fast forward
04:55:18 <GregorR> Yeah ;)
04:55:36 <GregorR> What's the stats on /dev/pcm?
04:55:39 <calamari> or you could hack the bf program
04:55:41 <GregorR> (Default)
04:55:47 <calamari> /dev/pcm ?
04:55:54 <GregorR>  /dev/dsp rather X_X
04:56:02 <calamari> 8000 unsigned 8 bit
04:56:40 <calamari> you should sing the numbers and record them for me ;)
04:56:41 <GregorR> Mono?
04:56:46 <GregorR> Me?  Hah
04:56:47 <calamari> then it will sound more jolly
04:57:59 <calamari> yeah mono
04:58:37 <GregorR> lame - -s 8 --unsigned --bitwidth=8 -m m
04:58:42 <GregorR> Still not quite right X_X
05:00:09 <calamari> here is what I used for the encoding
05:00:12 <calamari> mplayer filename.mp3 -ao pcm:nowaveheader:file=audio.dsp -srate 8000 -af-adv force=1 -af channels=1 -format u8
05:01:22 <GregorR> *shrugs*
05:04:43 <calamari> just output to a file on the hd. shouldn't be that big
05:06:07 <calamari> there we go.. 7 mb
05:06:44 <calamari> took 5a seconds to dump
05:06:46 <calamari> 51
05:08:06 <GregorR> No silly, 5A == 90, not 51.
05:08:13 <calamari> heh
05:09:04 <calamari> if mplayer can play raw audio you can encode using it
05:09:31 <calamari> -rawaudio
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05:16:06 <calamari> GregorR: if you'd been playing it you would have been done by now ;)
05:16:22 <calamari> or you would have gone insane and jumped off a bridge.. who knows
05:17:04 <GregorR-L> Yeah, but I'm writing an anthro paper :p
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05:19:43 <calamari> write about the culture of stupid drinking songs
05:21:23 <GregorR> What the hell kind of class paper is that open-ended?
05:24:47 <calamari> gregor: sox -r 8000 -u -b -c 1 song.raw song.wav
05:24:59 <calamari> that gets you to a wav .. then you can use lame from there
05:29:42 <calamari> should be around 14mb at 128k
05:31:20 <calamari> they need a 136k bitrate so its 1mb per minute
05:32:41 <calamari> heh
05:32:43 <calamari> bbl
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06:01:15 <oerjan> if you are clearing the cells anyways, isn't ignoring a 0x00 just to use [.[-]] instead of .?
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06:03:17 <GregorR> oerjan: The outside [] will make it depend on non-zero as input ...
06:03:48 <GregorR> OH
06:03:50 <oerjan> well, that's exactly my point
06:03:50 <GregorR> I get it now.
06:03:51 <GregorR> Yeah
06:04:30 <oerjan> btw this is for pikhq about his basm problem from the log
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12:25:30 <jwest-> heyhi
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13:24:35 * pikhq remains at 18 of 158 cells to set in the basm memory. . .
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14:18:14 * SimonRC contemplates adding AOP to INTERCAL...
14:19:52 <SimonRC> PLEASE DIVERT NEXTING (1001) AT (44)+(820)-(830)
14:21:19 <SimonRC> this would push the original call site, then the location of the incerpted call onto the return stack, so the RESUME #1 would continue with the thing that was intercepted and RESUME #2 would abort the thing that was intercepted
14:22:16 <SimonRC> This would make it easier to have multiple DIVERTs for one statement.
14:22:45 <SimonRC> DIVERT COMING FROM (440) AT *
14:23:05 <SimonRC> DIVERT DIVERSIONS AT (200)-(850)
14:23:10 <SimonRC> mwahahaha!
14:24:09 <SimonRC> DIVERT would be like a conditional COME FROM, crossed with a NEXT.
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15:17:55 <SimonRC> hi
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18:36:51 <calamari> hi
18:37:53 <RodgerTheGreat> hi
18:44:54 <ihope> hi
18:45:02 <ihope> Wait, what?
18:45:48 * pikhq curses at basm.b
18:52:20 <ihope> bom.b?
18:52:25 <ihope> Oh, basm.b.
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18:58:02 <pikhq> Getting the strings done efficiently: Pure. Craziness.
18:58:37 <GregorR-L> Getting the strings done efficiently: Pure. Uncut. Cocaine.
18:59:02 <pikhq> Hahah.
19:10:34 <calamari> pikhq: did you try out the 99bob song?
19:11:53 <pikhq> 38 out of 158 characters now. . .
19:11:53 <calamari> getting fat :( pants barely fit
19:11:54 <pikhq> calamari: No.
19:13:18 <calamari> maybe I should have it repeat at the end
19:15:35 <pikhq> Fortunately, once I get the first @#$% string done, everything remaining is really simple. . .
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20:32:25 * SimonRC has been hacking the URL of a site, and got these (url.ie addresses in order to hide the joke):  http://url.ie/290  http://url.ie/291  http://url.ie/292
20:37:09 <dbc> ...are you still setting up the strings in memory?
20:39:08 <Asztal> :D
20:51:36 <RodgerTheGreat> nice, SimonRC.
20:51:43 <RodgerTheGreat> that's pretty funny. :)
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22:40:34 * SimonRC likes the B compiler error codes.
22:40:35 <SimonRC> the full set is:  $) () */ [] >c >e >i >s ex lv rd sx un xx
22:40:37 <SimonRC> :-)
22:48:14 <pikhq> dbc: I'm taking large amounts of breaks for sanity's sake.
22:48:30 <pikhq> And for my wrist's sake, too. . .
22:49:59 <Asztal> just take the plunge and go completely insane.
22:50:24 <pikhq> If I ever redo BFM, I'll do it in very, very compact sexps.
22:50:36 <pikhq> It'd save me a lot of issues that I've had. . .
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23:54:23 * pikhq wonders why calamari didn't do some complex looping for his 99bob BF Audio. . .

2006-10-20:

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00:47:37 <ihope> SimonRC seems to love ##quantum.
00:54:45 * jix compiles wireshark
00:54:51 <jix> it takes too long
00:55:06 <jix> even tho i'm compiling it with make -j 2 on a dual core 2.16ghz machine :(
00:55:19 <jix> why can't people write software that compiles faster....
00:55:54 * ihope looks around to make sure nobody's looking
00:56:09 <ihope> They don't want you to compile it. (Shh, don't tell anyone...)
00:58:15 <jix> hmm warning: pointer targets in assignment differ in signedness seems to be the most common one
00:59:00 <jix> i always try to keep my code warning free... helps spotting warnings that could reduce in fatal runtime errors
00:59:06 <jix> it's done!
00:59:57 <ihope> Pointer assign--whatwhatwhat?
01:00:03 <ihope> See, Haskell actually makes sense :-P
01:00:20 <jix> i'm talking about c....
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01:03:13 <Razor-X> I'd have to say that pointers are more intuitive than monads. Not much more intuitive, but they are.
01:04:07 <ihope> Pointers are a monad :-P
01:04:11 <ihope> Actually, they're in a monad.
01:04:26 <Razor-X> Yeah, and in the end it's all using machine code :P
01:04:32 <Razor-X> I'm rating the abstraction, not what it does.
01:04:35 <Razor-X> Gawd!
01:04:44 <Asztal> does anyone remember the news about the dynamic weapon pricing system in counter strike? I think they broke it somewhat... a glock 19 costs $-476
01:05:28 <Razor-X> Does Pascal implement pointers the exact same way?
01:22:01 * pikhq is currently down a whole 993 characters from his original effort at basm.b
01:25:37 <pikhq> This is all without having rewritten my strings setting code (fully).
01:27:38 <Razor-X> I have decided to ``cheat'' like BitTorrent.
01:28:05 <pikhq> I think we can call my original attempt "inefficient as fuck".
01:28:45 <Razor-X> :)
01:29:08 <Razor-X> Program it in ASM and it'll be ``effecient as f***'', but on the other hand it will be ``f*** annoying'' to code.
01:29:25 <Razor-X> Hooray.
01:31:44 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/basm.opt.b
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02:47:47 <dbc> No, I mean...is it still your plan to set up the strings, complete, in memory and then output them from there, as opposed to using the usual string-printing tactics?
02:48:07 <pikhq> Yeah. . .
02:48:24 <pikhq> IMO, makes for simpler logic (once you've got the strings set up in memory).
02:48:39 <pikhq> And makes my BFM code a bit easier to understand. ;)
02:49:32 <dbc> Okay :)
02:50:13 <pikhq> Although it still leaves making the strings assloads of pain.
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03:20:33 <calamari> hi
03:22:11 <pikhq> Hello.
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04:56:02 <dbc> You're buying a certain amount of modularization. If you put the string-printing code inside the loops for each brainfuck command, it would complicate things in a way.
04:56:38 <dbc> On the other hand, the string-printing code would then be only about six or ten times the length of the strings to be printed.
04:57:10 <dbc> It's a tradeoff...I hate those :)
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13:25:36 <pikhq> dbc: IMO, the code simplification is worth it. . .
13:25:52 <pikhq> Especially when one considers that the string output code is all in BFM macros, anyways.
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15:17:57 <SimonRC> pikhq: I feel that "+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++" might be possible to optimise futher.
15:18:41 <SimonRC> pikhq: wouldn't the text-to-bf program help too?
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15:39:17 <GregorR> !bf_txtgen a
15:39:38 <EgoBot> 34 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>>><<<<-]>+. [26]
15:39:53 <GregorR> And that, my friends, is why the text-to-bf program doesn't help :P
15:40:16 <Asztal> I love the ">>><<<"
15:42:51 <GregorR> Exactly.
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17:24:25 <pikhq> SimonRC: Um. . . That's what I'm  currently optimizing.
17:25:03 <pikhq> oerjan: Your earlier suggestion came after I had implemented exactly that (re: [.[-]]).
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17:27:04 <oerjan> fine. as for those 105 plusses, take a look at Brainfuck constants on the wiki.
17:27:21 <pikhq> oerjan: I've been rewriting all of that.
17:27:51 <pikhq> Assloads of pain, becuase that's 158 cells to set. . .
17:27:59 <oerjan> (essentially 105 = 2/5 + 3)
17:28:34 * pikhq is making the loops write to multiple points in the array whenever it adds to efficiency
17:28:45 <oerjan> or was that -2/5 + 3
17:32:01 <pikhq> This would be infinitely easier if stdcons.bfm existed.
17:32:16 <oerjan> ho hum
17:32:19 <pikhq> Especially if stdcons.bfm had wrapping cells.
17:32:22 <pikhq> Used.
17:34:58 <oerjan> i have the list in brainfuck so the question is how to convert it to BFM
17:37:14 <pikhq> Change your script to generate BFM instead of Brainfuck. :p
17:37:35 <pikhq> (if you hand it to me, I'd be willing to make the necessary changes)
17:37:38 <oerjan> i am not generating it, i am extracting it from the wiki list
17:37:43 <pikhq> Ah.
17:38:02 <pikhq> I could probably change brainfucktobfm.tcl for the job. . .
17:39:08 <oerjan> or i'll whip up something in haskell which works for this special case
17:39:55 <pikhq> Does it pick out the shortest wrapping variants, or just the shortest nonwrapping?
17:40:08 <oerjan> shortest any
17:40:59 <pikhq> Ideally, it'd pick out the shortest 2-cell wrapping variants. . .
17:41:13 <pikhq> I *think* those are usually the shortest. . . Right?
17:41:31 <oerjan> except when the 1-cell are shortest
17:41:40 <pikhq> Well, duh.
17:42:09 <GregorR-W> If 1-cell is the shortest, then 2-cell is just 1-cell except the second cell isn't used :P
17:42:17 <pikhq> GregorR-W: Indeed.
17:45:41 <oerjan> question: for the 1-cell case, do you still want the macro to take a second argument for uniformity?
17:46:06 <pikhq> Yeah.
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17:52:29 <oerjan> i am blithely assuming set works with negative numbers
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18:44:58 <pikhq> Um. . . Not yet. Will soon.
18:45:22 <oerjan> i will assume it anyhow.
18:48:30 <oerjan> darn. or maybe not.
18:48:34 <pikhq> Does now.
18:48:48 <oerjan> aha. is there a new tarball?
18:50:22 <pikhq> New tarball is now up.
18:50:36 <pikhq> With somewhat large amounts of bugs fixed. :)
18:52:33 <oerjan> except you need to fix the negative numbers: subtract -num, not num
18:53:41 <pikhq> I fixed it in set.
18:54:09 <pikhq> (unless you argue that calling "set foo -1" should execute "subtract foo -1", which should do "+".)
18:54:43 <oerjan> um, no, you definitely got it the wrong way around.
18:54:51 <pikhq> set foo -1
18:55:08 <pikhq> This outputs [-], then executes "subtract foo 1".
18:55:16 <pikhq> subtract foo 1 outputs "-".
18:56:08 <oerjan> are you sure? because the code i downloaded looks like it would do subtract foo -1
19:10:54 <oerjan> very well: http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/stdcons.bfm
19:26:09 <pikhq> Grr; you're right.
19:27:55 <pikhq> Fixed in current tarball
19:29:08 <pikhq> And, BTW, thank you *very* much.
19:29:34 <oerjan> just one more improvement coming up
19:31:10 <pikhq> Hmm?
19:32:15 <oerjan> i changed those macros that just add a constant to the result of another macro so that they call it
19:32:52 <oerjan> same URL
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19:33:47 * pikhq doesn't see what you mean. . .
19:35:21 <oerjan> for example, 26 is calculated by first calculating 25 and then adding 1. the original version converted the whole code, the new one calls cons25 as a subroutine.
19:35:53 <pikhq> Ah.
19:36:54 <pikhq> I assume you have no issues with it being under the GPL and part of BFM?
19:36:57 <oerjan> all this with some particularly dirty haskell.
19:37:05 <pikhq> Part of the current tarball now. . .
19:37:08 * pikhq leaves for lunch
19:37:09 <oerjan> certainly not.
19:38:41 <oerjan> oh ..
19:39:14 <oerjan> perhaps add a note that it was converted from bf code on the esolang wiki
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22:30:10 <bsmntbombdood> cycle
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23:39:34 <pikhq> 41 cells to go. . .
23:46:09 <pikhq> Finished, and with only one (minor) bug.
23:47:50 <pikhq> Fixed.
23:48:29 <pikhq> A difference of 10476 characters from my initial attempt (7288 characters now).
23:49:02 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/basm.opt.b
23:51:35 <pikhq> Not quite as small was wib.b (6217), but nearing it. . .
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23:52:25 <pikhq> And basm.opt.b *still* has a lot of obvious things to optimize away.
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23:57:15 <pikhq> 7256 characters now. . .
23:57:53 * pikhq gently removes obvious things to cut
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2006-10-21:

00:02:20 <pikhq> 7238. . .
00:03:54 <pikhq> I'm going to set it down for now.
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00:41:17 <pikhq> Anyone *else* wish to comment?
00:43:18 <jix> isn't there such a converter allready?
00:43:39 <pikhq> Yeah; I compared mine to it a while ago.
00:43:50 <jix> is it shorter than your current one?
00:44:12 <pikhq> Yes, but not by much. . .
00:44:18 <pikhq> And I'm not done optimising at all.
00:45:12 <pikhq> I can probably pull out a few hundred more characters. . .
00:45:56 <pikhq> Lots more if I find a small, simple divide by 10 code segment which can be changed to output mode, too (that's where most of the logic code's size comes from).
00:46:44 <jix> your does basic optimisations?
00:46:49 <jix> (wib.b does)
00:47:10 <jix> but only for + and - not for rows of > and <
00:47:24 <pikhq> Mine does it for + - > and <
00:47:45 <jix> uhm what interpreter does yours require?
00:47:52 <pikhq> And mine, unlike wib.b, outputs C code for EOF=0.
00:48:05 <pikhq> Any where EOF=0 and cells wrap (at 8 bits).
00:48:10 <jix> i get funny chars when i run your code
00:48:31 <pikhq> Try the latest one; found a small handful of bugs
00:48:56 <jix> i get this: Ｃｩｮ｣ｬu､･ <ｳt､ｩｯ.ｨ>
00:49:22 <RodgerTheGreat> odd
00:49:34 <pikhq> You *sure* you're running on an 8 bit, cell-wrapping, EOF=0 Brainfuck implementation?
00:49:41 <jix> pretty
00:49:57 <RodgerTheGreat> and your machine operates with an ASCII character set?
00:50:18 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Oh, right; that's the most obvious assumption to ask about. XD
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00:50:34 <jix> awib worked (when i set eof mode to -1)
00:50:49 <pikhq> awib doesn't use wrapping cells.
00:50:53 <pikhq> Mine depends upon it.
00:50:54 <RodgerTheGreat> you never know in #Esoteric- he could be using EBCDIC for all I know...
00:51:07 <pikhq> (try EgoBF)
00:51:13 <jix> pikhq: wrapping works
00:51:32 <jix> pikhq: does yours move into negative mem offests?
00:51:33 <pikhq> (or ask me to upload the corresponding C code)
00:51:38 <pikhq> jix: No.
00:51:51 <RodgerTheGreat> if you're using a mac, I can offer an interpreter that's compatible with pikhq's code.
00:51:58 <jix> i'll try with egobf
00:52:00 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: i am
00:52:07 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, one sec
00:52:18 <RodgerTheGreat> http://rodger.nonlogic.org/code/BFPlatform.zip
00:52:23 <pikhq> I recommend trying basm with basm. :p
00:52:44 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: yuck! realbasic...
00:52:53 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, I know- I made it a while ago.
00:53:03 <jix> i started programming with realbasic... but now i hate it
00:53:27 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/basm.c Basm, as compiled by basm.
00:53:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I might get around to coding a GUI frontend for my Java based interpreter sometime soon... hm.
00:54:13 <jix> i use BF Debugger
00:54:53 <RodgerTheGreat> I was only aware of the windows-based version of that.
00:54:58 <jix> it's a java app
00:55:10 <RodgerTheGreat> then I must be thinking of something else.
00:55:18 <jix> but it really screws up basm
00:55:39 <RodgerTheGreat> did you at least *try* it with BFP?
00:55:47 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: yeah
00:55:51 <jix> it does work there
00:56:01 <jix> the same code fails in bf debugger
00:56:04 <pikhq> You *sure* that that's coded right?
00:56:12 <pikhq> (BF debugger, that is)
00:56:18 <jix> pikhq: ask calamari
00:56:22 <RodgerTheGreat> heh
00:56:40 <jix> i'll try it with my own bf2c converter that does a lot of optimization
00:57:20 <jix> this one http://esolangs.org/files/brainfuck/impl/bf2a-0.2p0.rb
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01:00:10 <jix> hmm my compiler expects eof == -1
01:00:20 <jix> (because it just calls getchar())
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01:00:44 <RodgerTheGreat> hey, Razor-X - what's the status of those neural-net experiments you were doing earlier?
01:00:56 <RodgerTheGreat> did you manage to build a DSP? :)
01:01:15 <pikhq> Try my own compiled version.
01:01:34 <jix> i really love those: LUT_VALS = [ ....a lot of numbers ...] #they are correct.. don't ask me why
01:02:10 <jix> i don't remember how i got them but they do work ..... ;]
01:03:46 <jix> well now i don't understand the program at all... but it is one of the most optimizing brainfuck compilers that exist
01:04:14 <pikhq> Heh. . .
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01:05:44 <jix> it somehow translates brainfuck to an intermediate language i called A and translates that into c
01:05:58 <pikhq> Magic.
01:06:08 <pikhq> Too much of it for my tastes.
01:06:23 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: I have a basic transfer function neuron model coded.
01:06:34 <RodgerTheGreat> sweet
01:06:40 <Razor-X> But I need some books to implement more complicated things like sigmoids.
01:07:56 <jix> it works in 3 stages.... stage 1 does obvious optimizations on the brainfuck code... in stage 2 it tries to detect high level things in the bf code and translates it in to the according a code... and the yet unwritten stage 3 should do optimizations on the a code
01:08:29 <jix> hell! i even implemented an efficient infinite loop ^^
01:08:40 <jix> that doesn't waste cpu cycles
01:09:11 <Razor-X> Written in ASM?
01:09:15 <Asztal> that's going to be a real pain the neck when I'm writing my befunge interpreter :<
01:09:16 <jix> no in c
01:09:19 <calamari> one thing that I'm not sure has been addressed with bf optimizations are useless memory cells
01:09:39 * pikhq is currently proud of basm.b. . .
01:10:15 <Razor-X> jix: What's optimizing about that? PSSH.
01:10:42 <calamari> when bf is computing, there are values everyhwere, but only some are actually useful in the computation.. others are for doing things like multiplication, etc.. but they have a bunch of side effects
01:10:55 <jix> Razor-X: while(1){} would take 100% cpu
01:11:08 <jix> Razor-X: while(1){sleep(-1)} takes < 1 % cpu
01:11:11 <pikhq> exit; uses 0%.
01:11:16 <Razor-X> jix: Incredible.
01:11:28 <jix> pikhq: but that doesn't infinite loop the process
01:11:47 <pikhq> jix: And why do you need an infinite loop that's doing no calculation?
01:11:56 <jix> pikhq: dunno
01:12:04 <jix> but when the bf code contains that the c code should do the same....
01:13:52 <Razor-X> I'm thinking of writing a BF interpreter for my TI.
01:14:01 <jix> Razor-X: i did the same
01:14:07 <jix> (thinking of it... not doing it ;) )
01:14:12 <Razor-X> jix: :D
01:14:25 <Razor-X> Maybe a Forth interpreter too, since everyone says Forth is so easy.
01:14:35 * calamari puts jix's processor into an nth-complexity infinite binary loop
01:14:36 <jix> Razor-X: in ti basic?
01:14:43 <Razor-X> jix: Ew no.
01:15:02 <RodgerTheGreat> ever played with CASM?
01:15:09 <Razor-X> Nope.
01:15:11 <jix> Razor-X: well i was thinking of doing that because i was at school and was bored...
01:15:22 <RodgerTheGreat> onboard Ti-83+ assembler. much fun.
01:16:06 <jix> Razor-X: which ti do you have?
01:16:14 <Razor-X> 83+.
01:16:45 <jix> ah
01:17:11 <pikhq> RPL. ;)
01:17:21 <Razor-X> Damn you :P
01:17:23 <jix> rpl?
01:17:27 <Razor-X> (Note: I don't curse often.)
01:17:34 <pikhq> Reverse Polish Lisp.
01:17:40 <pikhq> The builtin language on my calculator.
01:17:40 <jix> huh?
01:17:57 <Razor-X> HP Calculators use RPL by default.
01:18:09 <jix> yeah i know... but i just knew it under the name rpn
01:18:21 <pikhq> That's "reverse polish notation".
01:18:30 <jix> (and i have some add on for my ti-89 that allows me to use rpn)
01:18:40 <pikhq> RPL is a quirky Lisp, RPN is a way of specifying arguments.
01:18:47 <jix> ah
01:19:06 <jix> well i have rpn + ti CAS on my ti then
01:19:14 <Razor-X> How?
01:19:15 <jix> (i use both normal mode and rpn)
01:19:24 <pikhq> (by "quirky", I mean "uses RPN and a stack for your Lisping")
01:19:28 <Razor-X> Oh. TI-89.
01:19:44 <Razor-X> pikhq: Sounds like Forth.
01:19:52 <Razor-X> From the little Forth I know.
01:19:59 <jix> yeah
01:20:19 <pikhq> Razor-X: Has some elements of Forth in it; other than it's RPN nature, it's 100% Lisp.
01:20:26 <Razor-X> pikhq: Rakki :P
01:21:06 <jix> i want to get this new ti nspire
01:21:55 <jix> is it in stores yet?
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02:03:58 <calamari> hi wooby
02:04:34 <wooby> calamari: whats up
02:04:55 <calamari> not too much.. how are you?
02:05:03 <wooby> doing pretty well
02:05:18 <wooby> investigating bf hardware implementations
02:17:09 <ihope_> BF hardware implementations, eh?
02:18:32 <RodgerTheGreat> sounds interesting. FPGA?
02:20:33 <calamari> make one out of cmos or ttl chips :)
02:20:44 <RodgerTheGreat> haha
02:20:49 <calamari> then I can wire it up on my breadboard
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02:23:11 <calamari> that'd be a cool challenge..
02:23:26 <calamari> turing complete language requiring the least number of chips
02:23:36 <calamari> (besides cpus)
02:24:39 <jix> so cpus are forbidden right?
02:24:43 <calamari> right
02:24:58 <jix> you can't do a turing complete language in hardware ^^
02:25:04 <calamari> heh true
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02:25:20 <calamari> dunno what to call it then :)
02:25:22 <jix> NARGH
02:25:59 <calamari> so when implemented, bf is no longer turing complete.. but it's something
02:26:11 <jix> its a finite state machine
02:26:18 <calamari> maybe just a very complex fsm
02:26:20 <calamari> yeah hehe
02:26:43 <calamari> well that's lame then
02:31:03 <calamari> anyhow, if you wanted an easy bf cpu:
02:31:13 <calamari> emulate bf on a pic microprocessor
02:31:19 <jix> or avr
02:32:36 <calamari> does avr make a DIP version?
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02:32:41 <calamari> does avr make a DIP version?
02:32:56 <calamari> (nice for the breadboard)
02:33:17 <jix__> they do
02:33:27 <calamari> hey look at that.. an avr with lcd display
02:33:28 <calamari> cool
02:33:43 <jix__> (i only worked with a µC once and it was an atmega32)
02:35:05 <calamari> oh, not the display, just a driver
02:35:48 <calamari> I've always wanted to build a computer.. but I have too many unfinished projects already
02:36:32 <jix__> haha the same here
02:36:40 <calamari> it'd be cool to have one capable of running off AA's
02:37:13 <calamari> or some kind of rechargable battery pack
02:40:22 <jix__> well i have a dual core 280mhz arm linux device (well linux knows only one of the cpus ^^) runnung of two aas
02:41:45 <jix__> i have a cool idea!
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02:43:16 <jix__> a community designed language that goes that way.... there will be one moderator.... all other participants will send an email to the moderator naming 10 or so statements that the language should have... the moderator has the task to write a language specification that includes all those statements!
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02:46:00 <jix__> what do you think about this?
02:46:04 <jix__> should i run such a thing?
02:46:14 <ihope_> Eh.
02:46:38 <jix__> ihope_: huh?
02:46:40 <ihope_> So the language would be single statements?
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02:46:58 <jix__> well lets hope someone submits a statement that can be used for looping ^^
02:47:15 <ihope_> And each collection of statements would have to work on its own, more-or-less?
02:47:27 <jix__> huh?
02:47:36 <ihope_> I mean, they wouldn't easily be able to access each other's variables.
02:47:44 <jix__> it's just that the proposals HAVE to go into the language
02:47:53 <jix__> part of the game is gluing them all together
02:48:01 <ihope_> What if the proposals are unreasonable?
02:48:10 <ihope_> Like solving the halting problem?
02:48:16 <ihope_> For Turing machines, at that.
02:48:57 <jix__> ihope_: well forbid things that aren't implementable using a turing machine
02:49:04 * ihope_ nods
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02:49:05 <jix__> (non deterministic one)
02:49:10 <ihope_> And I suddenly must go.
02:49:22 <jix__> i think i'll write something up (rules) tomorrow
02:49:26 <jix__> i have to sleep now
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13:43:51 <jix> moin
13:44:06 <SimonRC> ug
13:50:48 <jix> i'll try to write up rules for the let's make a language by throwing together some statements
13:53:05 <jix> later ;)
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16:36:12 <pikhq> *echm*
16:36:13 <pikhq> HAH!
16:36:20 <pikhq> (basm.b is now smaller than wib.b
16:36:22 <pikhq> )
16:37:22 <SimonRC> where are they?
16:37:47 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/basm.opt.b
16:40:09 <SimonRC> pikhq: have you considered commenting it or inserting newlines?
16:44:34 <pikhq> SimonRC: I'll upload the BFM code in a bit. . .
16:46:37 * pikhq just moved the itoa code outside of the loops, so it was only included once
16:47:57 <SimonRC> is it only used in one place or something?
16:48:07 <pikhq> No. . .
16:48:19 <SimonRC> 'cause otherwise you ould have to add a very slow function-call meachanism
16:48:51 <pikhq> Now, I've got the 4 places where it'd be used just set a value in memory, and a loop which runs once if that value has been set. . .
16:59:08 <jix> pikhq: i want to see the bfm code !!!!!!11111oneeleven
16:59:14 <jix> pikhq: btw where to get bfm?
17:10:05 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: how big was your last version?
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17:12:33 <RodgerTheGreat> this new one's only 5140 bytes... wow.
17:12:44 <RodgerTheGreat> wasn't it like 11k before?
17:21:00 * SimonRC wishes he had chosen a BF optimisier as his project ;-).
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18:02:13 <calamari> hi Rob
18:02:19 <Robdgreat> hullo
18:02:24 <Robdgreat> what's shakin'?
18:03:07 <calamari> nothing :)
18:03:16 <Robdgreat> cool.
18:03:21 <Robdgreat> I'm at work waiting for lunch to arrive
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18:17:15 <oerjan> jix: I know what the LUT_VALS are ;)
18:48:21 <jix> oerjan: i know what they are but not how i got them
18:49:36 <oerjan> well, the theoretical way is to use a variant of the Euclidean algorithm
18:50:12 <oerjan> but for numbers this small a simpler search would also do
18:57:12 <oerjan> in Haskell: [m |n <- [3,5..253], m <- [3,5..253], (m*n) `mod` 256 == 255]
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20:01:46 <Razor-X> jix: The instruction AWE which multiplies every point of memory to the right and left of the pointer of 5 units by a random number of half the bit-width of each memory location.
20:01:59 <jix> what?
20:02:36 <jix> uhm you know that there isn't a make-a-language-with-many-obscure-statements thing yet....
20:02:54 <jix> and the statements will be submitted by mail so others don't know what the other statements are
20:03:00 <jix> so you don't influence each other
20:03:04 <Razor-X> Aw :(
20:03:31 <jix> hmm i should really write the rules up and start such a thing
20:06:43 <jix> i need a name for this thing
20:06:55 <RodgerTheGreat> I have a couple of good command ideas.
20:07:02 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: psshhh
20:07:48 <RodgerTheGreat> call it "Schnitzel". All the chicken feet and pig noses ground into a useable language.
20:08:04 <jix> no
20:08:14 <oerjan> Chimera
20:08:21 <jix> not a name for the language but a name for the progress of creating one
20:08:27 <jix> (i need a title for the wiki page)
20:08:33 <RodgerTheGreat> "Stone Soup programming"
20:09:50 <oerjan> Programming Potluck
20:09:59 <jix> something descriptive...
20:10:21 <RodgerTheGreat> "Meatgrinder Esoterica"
20:10:35 <jix> nonono.....
20:10:51 <oerjan> From the Esophagus
20:10:57 <RodgerTheGreat> be more descriptive of what you want.
20:11:13 <jix> a title for the wiki page to write down the rules of the thing i described yesterday
20:12:01 <oerjan> this reminds me of the old Fantasy Rules Committee
20:12:34 <oerjan> i remember we did a programming language in that
20:13:12 <RodgerTheGreat> "Double-Blind Collaborative Esolang Design"
20:13:18 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: perfect!
20:13:35 <Razor-X> Not double-blind. Just blind.
20:13:43 <Razor-X> [/statistics anal-ism]
20:14:04 <oerjan> hm, the first letters are nearly in alphabetical order
20:14:24 <RodgerTheGreat> Hm. Well, it would be double-blind if the first coders were neither the "suggestors" or the "integrator"
20:14:36 <oerjan> Blind Collaborative Design Esolang
20:14:44 <RodgerTheGreat> haha
20:15:18 <oerjan> just needs something with A
20:15:33 <jix> hmm i want that everyone (even the moderator) can submit between 5 and 15 statements
20:16:00 <oerjan> Allgemeine
20:16:24 <jix> and then everyone can help writing up a spec that contains those statements
20:17:05 <oerjan> could add Factory to the end
20:17:33 <jix> we don't need to have an ABCDEF acronym!
20:17:35 <RodgerTheGreat> "adjudicated blind collaborative design esolang factory"
20:17:41 <oerjan> but i wanna!
20:17:49 <jix> but that really sounds cool
20:17:56 <jix> i just have to look up adj...
20:18:00 <RodgerTheGreat> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=adjudicated
20:18:12 <RodgerTheGreat> "to settle or determine (an issue or dispute) judicially."
20:18:25 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: uhm i ment like in english german dictionary
20:18:36 <RodgerTheGreat> ?
20:19:08 <jix> ok
20:19:11 <jix> i'll name it that way
20:19:16 <RodgerTheGreat> woo
20:19:54 <jix> but i probably need a bit of help writing this up...
20:21:33 <jix> i just write it down and someone who has a better english than me can correct it
20:22:36 <oerjan> better english for glorious design esolang
20:22:42 <RodgerTheGreat> I can review your grammar and spelling.
20:22:55 <jix> yeah but i'm kind of stuck in the first sentence :(
20:23:11 <jix> it's more that i have no idea what to write than english....
20:24:31 <RodgerTheGreat> you could start by explaining how you came to this idea, and then describe the general concept and process.
20:24:51 <jix> i'll first write down the rules... that's the easiest part
20:24:52 <RodgerTheGreat> then outline submission guidelines and open the floodgates, so to speak.
20:25:15 <oerjan> hm.. guidelines, that's G
20:26:04 <jix> This section will describe the Rules according to the Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory Guidelines ;)
20:26:15 <RodgerTheGreat> haha
20:27:13 <RodgerTheGreat> you should probably impose some basic rules for the language up-front (like one-dimensional code) up-front, so that command ideas will be vaguely compatible with one another.
20:27:24 <jix> no!
20:27:40 <jix> that's the funny part... getting all those obscure things into one language
20:27:53 <jix> there should as few restrictions as possible
20:28:04 <jix> only things like code is in ascii charset etc
20:28:09 <RodgerTheGreat> somehow, I get the feeling you aren't going to be coding the reference interpreter.
20:28:10 <oerjan> turing implementability was mentioned
20:28:16 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: i'd like to!
20:28:17 <oerjan> what, no Unicode?
20:28:24 <jix> oerjan: ascii compatible then
20:28:45 <RodgerTheGreat> unicode is a superset of ASCII, so if you coded in unicode you could generate or use ASCII
20:29:35 <Razor-X> No EBDIC code? :(
20:29:44 <Razor-X> 大変��。
20:30:19 <RodgerTheGreat> well, if you're that insistent...
20:30:24 <jix> Razor-X: well if two features can't go together a compromise has to be found
20:31:11 <Razor-X> BEG, RNG, RRQ, RRT, ACK, FIN.
20:31:34 <jix> but stop posting ideas for statements etc... that'll take the fun out of it....
20:31:39 <RodgerTheGreat> tell me, Razor-X- do you have a computer that uses EBCDIC?
20:31:42 <Razor-X> No, this is for my own project.
20:31:46 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: No :P
20:31:47 <jix> ah ok
20:31:57 <RodgerTheGreat> lol
20:32:25 <Razor-X> It would be sorta pointless to implement these commands, because they're being used in packet transfer.
20:32:33 <oerjan> statements are one thing, but what about expressions?
20:33:03 <jix> you can suggest whatever you want that is a bit statement like
20:33:32 <oerjan> surely you don't want to restrict this language to only imperative features?
20:33:34 <RodgerTheGreat> let's say something like "majority rule for decisions like RPN vs PN (or both simultaneously)"
20:33:42 <jix> oerjan: no
20:33:50 <RodgerTheGreat> the alternative is "everything suggestions assume works must be implemented somehow"
20:34:04 <jix> there should be as much implemented as possible
20:34:09 <jix> making the language very obscure
20:34:37 <oerjan> hm, this language will be worse than Magenta...
20:35:10 <jix> btw i got this idea while reading through the intercal specs
20:36:59 <Razor-X> Magenta?
20:37:11 <RodgerTheGreat> they can have that effect on people.
20:38:07 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Magenta
20:40:17 <Razor-X> It'll either be the best thing since sliced bread or the worst hellish piece of language ever.
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20:41:47 <RodgerTheGreat> potentially both simultaneously!
20:42:00 <Razor-X> That too.
20:42:07 <Razor-X> But will this be stack based or expression based?
20:42:21 <jix> who knows...
20:42:26 <RodgerTheGreat> I got the impression it might be both,
20:42:26 <oerjan> what do you mean, _or_?
20:42:30 <RodgerTheGreat> I dunno
20:42:41 <jix> it'll be whatever comes out of the factory
20:42:41 <Razor-X> Well, C isn't stack based.
20:42:50 <Razor-X> So... it'll be both, huh?
20:42:53 <Razor-X> Scary.
20:42:59 <RodgerTheGreat> haha.
20:42:59 <jix> but wait until i've written down the rules according to the Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory Guidelines
20:43:06 <RodgerTheGreat> this ought to be quite fun.
20:43:17 <Razor-X> The abbreviation is ABCDEF!
20:43:22 * RodgerTheGreat percolates his brain-juices
20:43:22 <Razor-X> *ABCDEFG
20:43:39 <RodgerTheGreat> it's kismet, it would seem.
20:43:48 <Razor-X> *DEATH*
20:44:17 <RodgerTheGreat> lol
20:44:45 <jix> oh and NEVER abbreviate Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory
20:44:50 <RodgerTheGreat> just 19 more letters to go.
20:44:54 <jix> that'll make the whole thing a lot more funny
20:44:55 <RodgerTheGreat> got it.
20:45:22 <Razor-X> AKA Abbreviate it and write some sort of a preproccessor that expands out the abbreviation :P
20:45:39 <Razor-X> Hey! Let's ask CakeProphet to write it in Wiki code!
20:46:11 <oerjan> um, that is a trivial template.
20:46:32 <Razor-X> Dun ask me, I know nothing of Wiki markup.
20:46:38 <Razor-X> But if it was LaTeX....
20:48:08 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, \LaTeX{}...
20:55:02 <jix> here is the first version feel free to fix it up: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Adjudicated_Blind_Collaborative_Design_Esolang_Factory
20:55:16 <jix> but don't remove the mentions of the Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory (Guidelines)
20:57:57 <jix> nargh i fucked up the last sentence
20:58:11 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: are you editing the site atm?
20:58:28 <RodgerTheGreat> no
20:58:39 <RodgerTheGreat> should I now?
20:58:39 <jix> ok let me complete the last sentence
20:59:41 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: now
21:03:13 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm working...
21:03:52 <Razor-X> Is a qsort of 1024 elements too heavy on memory?
21:05:22 <oerjan> can't imagine how. qsort is in-place, usually.
21:05:40 <oerjan> was that a joke? :)
21:05:44 <Razor-X> But it uses recursion, and I'm not using tail recursion here.
21:06:02 <jix> well it'l only recurse log(1024) depth
21:06:12 <Razor-X> Yeah.
21:06:15 <jix> (averagely)
21:06:36 <jix> where log is base 2 logarithm
21:06:37 <oerjan> on average. worst case could be about 1024
21:06:52 <jix> oerjan: there are ways to stop qsort from doing this
21:07:28 <Razor-X> Now I'm wondering whether log(1024) recursion will be too heavy for this or not.
21:07:38 <Razor-X> log_2 :P
21:07:41 <jix> level 10 recursion too heavy?
21:07:57 <Razor-X> Maybe.
21:08:04 <Razor-X> Because it'll be doing a lot of other things too.
21:08:28 <oerjan> hm...
21:09:09 <oerjan> well, use mergesort then, you can easily avoid recursion.
21:09:17 <RodgerTheGreat> there, done. I think I cleaned up the majority of it.
21:09:19 <Razor-X> Tradeoffs tradeoffs.
21:10:29 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: thx
21:10:42 <jix> ok i should run the thing now
21:10:56 <Razor-X> I wonder how Java will handle this when I decide to make it cross-platform :P
21:11:48 <oerjan> i think you can make the recursion very light on memory by just using the boundary indices as parameters, keeping the array in an outer scope
21:12:14 <Razor-X> Hmmm....
21:14:13 <RodgerTheGreat> Java handles infinite recursion quite well, actually, because it has a garbage-collector.
21:14:49 <oerjan> although if you pass it by reference it won't be much anyhow
21:15:25 <Razor-X> Not recursion RodgerTheGreat. From what I've heard, it's very good with recursion.
21:16:21 <Razor-X> But a lot of the application I'm basing around memory tradeoffs (because I'm trying to take overhead off the network arch onto the systems participating in the transfer, because we aren't running super-weak machines anymore) and I'm hoping I can express the analogies in Java.
21:16:28 <jix> how long should the statement collection phase last?
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21:17:17 <jix> 2 days? 1 day (it shouldn't last too long it doesn't take long to write down about 10 statements)
21:18:02 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: Razor-X: oerjan: ?
21:18:04 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah- I already have a pair that works together that should give you all aneurisms.
21:18:11 <RodgerTheGreat> two days sounds fair
21:18:24 <oerjan> it can take a while to get a good idea...
21:18:54 <jix> i'll make it two days
21:19:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I was under the impression that we could build languages like this several times, and this first one will be primarily a test of the method. So, oerjan, if you come up short this round, you'll have more chances.
21:21:19 <jix> its online
21:21:20 <jix> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Adjudicated_Blind_Collaborative_Design_Esolang_Factory
21:21:51 <jix> uh wait i forgot to write down my own statements first
21:22:22 <jix> well i wont look into the mails before i completed my list anyway.... it'll take out the fzn
21:22:23 <jix> fun
21:23:14 <Razor-X> jix: I'm about to check the rules, but for reference, how many entries per person?
21:23:22 <jix> 5-15
21:23:48 <Razor-X> �白�����
21:23:57 <jix> huh?
21:24:08 <Razor-X> Awesome!
21:24:36 <RodgerTheGreat> obviously a colloquialism.
21:24:53 <RodgerTheGreat> the translation of that phrase is seriously fucked up.
21:24:59 <RodgerTheGreat> "Don't you think? funny [wa]"
21:25:05 <Razor-X> ... :D
21:25:11 <Razor-X> �白� means cool, interesting, etc.
21:25:16 <RodgerTheGreat> ah
21:25:27 <Razor-X> It's a typical adjective.
21:25:37 <Razor-X> But you use adjectives by themselves to express a feeling or emotion.
21:25:48 <Razor-X> �� is <female emphasis particle> <excited emphasis particle>
21:25:57 <oerjan> jix: it might just possibly be a good idea if you were to put your email address somewhere reachable from the Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory page
21:26:20 <jix> oerjan: uhm my email address is there
21:26:31 <jix> in the 2nd sentence
21:26:41 <jix> after the TOC
21:27:15 <jix> (i don't fear spam... i'll get a lot of it anyway)
21:29:34 <oerjan> sorry, looked at old version
21:29:39 <Razor-X> I really need to code binary functions for my calculator.
21:30:13 <Razor-X> Lot more because well.... the calculator has a processor too :P
21:30:21 <Razor-X> *Lot more effecient
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21:32:44 <jix> hmm we should put that in the topic i think
21:33:08 <Razor-X> Which?
21:33:14 <jix> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Adjudicated_Blind_Collaborative_Design_Esolang_Factory
21:33:17 <Razor-X> Aha.
21:33:22 -!- jix has set topic: the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - for brainfuck-specific discussion, go to ##brainfuck - competition: http://esolangs.org/wiki/2006_Esolang_Contest - http://esolangs.org/wiki/Adjudicate.
21:33:27 <jix> nargh too long
21:33:40 <oerjan> anyone surprised? :)
21:33:46 <jix> the competition is over now right?
21:34:06 <Razor-X> Yeah, it's over.
21:34:18 <jix> nargh
21:34:33 -!- jix has set topic: the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - for brainfuck-specific discussion, go to ##brainfuck - http://esolangs.org/wiki/Adjudicated_Blind_Collaborative_Design_Esolang_Factory.
21:42:16 <jix> i have 4 statements now... but i want to get at least 10
21:44:36 <jix> haha this lang will get ridiculous
21:47:21 <oerjan> it will with the two statements i just invented
21:47:46 <jix> hehe
21:50:31 <RodgerTheGreat> I have 6 so far.
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21:50:53 <RodgerTheGreat> I have a mix of mindlessly painful and genuinely useful commands.
21:50:58 <RodgerTheGreat> some are both.
21:50:59 <jix> Keymaker: check topic/ esolangs.org mainpage / http://esolangs.org/wiki/Adjudicated_Blind_Collaborative_Design_Esolang_Factory
21:51:06 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: same here
21:51:30 <Keymaker> reading now..
21:54:31 <Keymaker> interesting idea
21:55:07 <Keymaker> i can think of painless and useless commands only :D
21:55:35 <jix> Keymaker: no problem, there will be enough of both
21:57:33 <Razor-X> Mmm... my handshaking process is complicated :(
21:57:36 * calamari is old :(  going to my 10 year high school reunion tonight
21:57:43 <Razor-X> Shows how a project evolves.
21:57:53 <Keymaker> a
21:58:12 <Razor-X> b
21:58:15 <Keymaker> cheer up calamari, everyone gets older day by day
21:58:40 <calamari> hehe
21:59:01 <Keymaker> :) btw, haven't read logs for a while, how is your ipod language?
21:59:06 <RodgerTheGreat> that's like saying "My best friend died." "That's OK, people die every day. you might die soon."
21:59:06 <Keymaker> any specs yet anywhere?
21:59:16 <calamari> dunno if there are specs
21:59:26 <Keymaker> ok
21:59:27 <Razor-X> I'm a second older!
21:59:39 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: It's a common joke at our school.
21:59:41 <calamari> but I haven't been working on it as much since the main compilers project is getting intense
21:59:56 <Keymaker> main compiler?
22:00:01 <Razor-X> ``You're gonna die, <varying degree expletive>'' ``I know.''
22:00:05 <Keymaker> writteny by you too?
22:00:05 <calamari> I'm taking a compiler class
22:00:10 <Keymaker> ah
22:00:11 <Keymaker> ok
22:00:32 <Keymaker> before i hated compilers, nowadays i'm interested in making one
22:00:34 <calamari> I figured I should learn how to use flex/bison
22:00:36 <Keymaker> but no time right now
22:00:57 <Razor-X> Writing parsers bugs me, but flex/bison is pretty convenint.
22:01:13 <calamari> doing semantic checking right now
22:01:45 <Razor-X> Hah. Lame pun. Writing parsers bugs me.
22:02:04 <calamari> writing parsers by hand is fun
22:02:14 <calamari> see bfbasic ;)
22:02:17 <Razor-X> Pshh :P
22:02:22 <Razor-X> Well, BF is something.
22:02:28 <Razor-X> Writing a Plof parser is something else.
22:02:34 <calamari> plof?
22:02:36 <Keymaker> plof?
22:02:39 <calamari> jinx!
22:02:43 <Razor-X> GregorR will kill you both :P
22:03:03 <Keymaker> nice
22:03:07 <Razor-X> It's GregorR's non-esoteric attempt at a marriage between an imperative and functional language, while making it a P-language.
22:03:31 <calamari> if he comes around I have a nifty hat that will placate him
22:03:42 <Razor-X> Now only Keymaker will die.
22:03:49 <Razor-X> From GregorR's hand.
22:03:56 <Keymaker> i see
22:04:19 <calamari> p-language?
22:04:45 <Razor-X> Python, Perl, PHP, and notably Ruby.
22:04:51 <calamari> ahh
22:05:14 <calamari> imperative is the same as procedural, right ?
22:05:18 <Keymaker> so many new users here.. i can recognize only half the names, almost
22:05:19 <Razor-X> Yahr.
22:05:29 <Razor-X> Keymaker: Only have of us talk :)
22:05:32 <Razor-X> *half
22:05:38 <Keymaker> heh
22:06:02 * Asztal 's in the other half
22:06:21 <Keymaker> i was reading logs a bit and too lazy to read them all, what is pikhq's basm?
22:06:56 <jix> a brainfuck 2 c converter written in brainfuck
22:07:01 <jix> does simple optimizations
22:07:09 <Keymaker> ah. nice
22:07:20 <jix> is shorter than wib.b now and does more optimizations (optimizes >>> <<< +++ and ---)
22:07:34 <Razor-X> Optimizalicious!
22:07:38 <Razor-X> :D
22:07:43 <jix> Razor-X: got it!
22:07:59 <Razor-X> You can make it optimize arbitrary strings of the same operation.
22:08:12 <Razor-X> *arbitrary length
22:09:06 <Keymaker> nice. was just going to ask if there's any limit for rows of same character
22:09:25 <Razor-X> No as in, you can possibly do it.
22:09:30 <Razor-X> I dunno if pikhq has implemented it.
22:09:34 <Keymaker> aha
22:09:41 <Keymaker> then what did you mean?
22:09:51 <Razor-X> I can think of code to optimize it, kinda.
22:10:57 <jix> oh afk TV
22:12:37 <jix> hah i have 9 statements allready
22:12:40 <jix> afk really now
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22:16:25 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm almost done with my submision. ^_^
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22:33:26 <RodgerTheGreat> COMPLETE
22:36:01 <RodgerTheGreat> submitted.
22:37:47 * RodgerTheGreat begins staring at his clock, waiting for 22:20 GMT on the 23rd.
22:41:29 <RodgerTheGreat> bbl- food.
23:03:57 <RodgerTheGreat> back
23:04:04 <RodgerTheGreat> how's everyone doing?
23:07:03 <calamari> good.. just ate too
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23:09:18 <SimonRC> Historically, gcc 1.34 demonstrated just what "implementation-defined" really means in C.
23:09:24 <SimonRC> "GCC, upon finding a #pragma directive, would instead attempt to start Emacs running a simulation of the Towers of Hanoi."
23:09:37 <SimonRC> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undefined_behavior
23:09:42 <RodgerTheGreat> haha
23:10:49 <Razor-X> That sounds very effecient.
23:11:27 <RodgerTheGreat> "This specifically frees the compiler to do whatever is easiest or most efficient, should such a program be entered."
23:11:40 <RodgerTheGreat> might've been "easiest", instead.
23:33:30 <GregorR> A-ping.
23:33:53 <oerjan> i could not resist putting a similar implementation-defined into my latest statement.
23:34:00 <GregorR> A-ping a'calamari
23:34:29 <calamari> hi
23:34:38 <calamari> you rang?
23:35:56 <RodgerTheGreat> a few of my commands have interesting behavior when you feed them inappropriate input.
23:36:18 <GregorR> calamari: <calamari> if he comes around I have a nifty hat that will placate him
23:36:34 <Sgeo> RodgerTheGreat, hm?
23:36:35 <calamari> GregorR: yeah, next time you're in Arizona ;)
23:36:44 <Sgeo> And are there esolangs with undef behavior?
23:36:54 <GregorR> calamari: They have these magical things called "digital cameras" nowadays,
23:36:56 <RodgerTheGreat> BF has undefined behavior.
23:37:22 <Keymaker> yea, many esolang has
23:37:24 <calamari> GregorR: they also have this magical stuff called cash.. which you don't seem to have much of once you have kids ;)
23:37:33 <GregorR> Ha-HAH
23:37:48 <calamari> even so, I'm getting my wife a digital camera for christmas
23:37:57 <calamari> need to start shopping for one
23:39:44 <Sgeo> There should be an article for BFComp
23:41:20 <Keymaker> it's probably the only piece of esolang hardware along the physical whirl computer (made of cardboard)
23:41:30 <SimonRC> Did you know... PDP-11 bootloaders indicated different loading problems by doing infinite loops at various locations
23:43:52 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: your email went unread into my Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory mailbox
23:44:18 <jix> GregorR: are you going to participate too?
23:47:11 <Keymaker> was there some function for converting a number to a string of 8-bit bytes?
23:47:31 <Keymaker> in c
23:48:08 <jix> several
23:50:14 <RodgerTheGreat> keep in mind, guys, we will need *some* reasonably normal functions, operators, variable types and control structures if we want this language to be useable.
23:51:07 <RodgerTheGreat> possibly some stdio-related things, etc.
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23:55:28 <RodgerTheGreat> bbl- mozart.

2006-10-22:

00:09:39 <oerjan> rodgerthegreat: i heard you so i added some output statements.
00:15:33 <jix> i have 12 statements done
00:19:22 * SimonRC goes
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00:24:37 <Keymaker> i'll self-terminate. good night
00:24:41 -!- Keymaker has left (?).
00:33:11 <jix> wahoo i'm done with my 15 statements
00:35:04 <ihope_> What? Huh? Eh?
00:35:13 <ihope_> Wait, um...
00:35:16 <jix> ihope_: what?
00:37:36 -!- oerjan has quit ("Tbbq avtug.").
00:38:01 <ihope_> I see.
00:38:09 <jix> ihope_: do you want to participate too?
00:38:50 <ihope_> Sure.
00:38:56 <ihope_> Well.
00:39:07 <ihope_> Can I submit just one statement?
00:39:41 <jix> uhm the rules say 5
00:39:57 <jix> just think of 4 other stupid features
00:40:13 <jix> bet yes if you just submit 1 it won't be a problem
00:40:30 <jix> it's about having fun not about enforcing the rules ^^
00:40:54 <Sgeo> Wgat's this?
00:41:05 <jix> Sgeo: see tha lst link in the topic
00:41:06 <jix> *last
00:41:08 <jix> *the
00:43:22 * Sgeo saw
00:43:38 <Sgeo> A bit after I asked though
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00:44:13 <Sgeo> Hi GregorR-L
00:44:37 <Sgeo> jix, is it possible that two statements can be literally incompatible with eachother being in the same language somehow?
00:46:07 <jix> Sgeo: i don't know what you are talking about but i assume yes
00:47:00 <jix> uh i just found an article about alpaca http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/10/a_metalanguage_for_pathologica.php
00:47:19 <GregorR-L> If one person submits "a = b" to set a to the value of b, and one person submits "a = b" to set b to the value of a, I don't think they'll both get in :P
00:47:36 <jix> well one could still say it depends on context
00:47:53 <jix> or every even time it gets executed... every odd time it gets executed...
00:47:58 <jix> goal is to get them ALL in
00:50:48 * Sgeo can't wait to see the finished product
00:51:21 <jix> neither me
00:52:18 <Sgeo> jix, but you have some idea
00:52:22 <Sgeo> Beforehand
00:52:23 <Sgeo> >.<
00:52:32 <jix> i know my 15 instructions
00:52:40 <jix> i don't look into the other ones beforehand
00:53:21 <Sgeo> Ah
00:53:26 <Sgeo> Non-cheater >.<
00:53:46 <jix> i want the big surprise when i read them all at once
00:53:57 <jix> i must be like OMGLOLROFLORLYYARLYNOWAYBBQ!!!!
01:00:28 * Sgeo should write more specs for his language
01:00:29 <Sgeo> >.<
01:01:21 <Sgeo> If anyone has any opinions/comments about http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/MKBL.txt please state them now.
01:03:04 <jix> i go to bed now
01:03:36 <Sgeo> Night jix
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01:04:52 * Sgeo sees the irony in "order is never evaluated"
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01:05:22 <Sgeo> I should really say that order is evaluated automatically at the beginning of a step, and can't be specified as a table to be evaluated
01:05:24 <Sgeo> Hi bsmntbombdood
01:05:45 <bsmntbombdood> hi
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02:17:33 <RodgerTheGreat> back
02:19:03 <RodgerTheGreat> my entry includes some basic flow control, one or two math primitives, some variable related things, and some basic output. I think the main thing we need to be sure to include is a good set of math and flow control operators.
02:32:44 <Asztal> mingle, select, and next/forget ?
02:33:44 <RodgerTheGreat> that's not what I have, but something similar to that could make a useful addition.
02:35:25 <pikhq> Argh; jix left too soon. . .
02:35:38 <RodgerTheGreat> ?
02:35:58 <pikhq> Was going to answer his (much) earlier questions. . .
02:36:04 <RodgerTheGreat> if you're interested in joining the factory run, there's plenty of time, pikhq.
02:36:08 <RodgerTheGreat> oh
02:36:42 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: My previous basm build was about 7100 characters.
02:36:56 <RodgerTheGreat> ah- still quite an improvement.
02:37:33 <RodgerTheGreat> my pong game is at 330 bytes, and I think I may be able to shave it down further.
02:37:46 <pikhq> My first attempt was nearly 17000 characters. . .
02:37:53 <RodgerTheGreat> wow
02:38:02 <pikhq> Incredibly inefficient. ;)
02:38:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I assume this means your macro package has been gaining some significant upgrades during this process.
02:38:44 <pikhq> Not at all.
02:39:02 <pikhq> Only upgrade was stdcons.bfm, provided by oerjan. . .
02:39:12 <pikhq> Everything else was just dicking with the code.
02:39:21 <RodgerTheGreat> hm.
02:39:52 <pikhq> The basm.bfm code, that is.
02:40:12 <pikhq> Err. . . I made *one* change; @ automatically calls is0 now.
02:40:37 <pikhq> But that doesn't change the output code much, just makes a variable declaration shorter.
02:43:29 <RodgerTheGreat> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Adjudicated_Blind_Collaborative_Design_Esolang_Factory <- do you plan on contributing?
02:43:50 <pikhq> Just for the hell of it.
02:44:09 <RodgerTheGreat> why else would you? :)
02:48:29 * pikhq is proud of basm. . .
02:48:57 <pikhq> Let's see if I can make it *smaller*.
02:49:34 <pikhq> Looking at the BFM code. . . Hell yeah, but I don't feel like it right now.
02:52:28 <RodgerTheGreat> you could join my "classic game crunching" competition in ##Nonlogic.
02:53:01 <RodgerTheGreat> I made pong in Chipmunk BASIC, Zashi built tic-tac-toe, and feesh is working on blackjack.
02:53:11 <pikhq> In Chipmunk BASIC?
02:53:36 <RodgerTheGreat> hell yeah. I got it down to 330 bytes, which is not too shabby no matter how you look at it.
02:53:57 <RodgerTheGreat> I might try rock-paper-scissors in an esolang next..
02:54:33 <RodgerTheGreat> Zashi's perl implementation of Tic-tac-toe is pretty impressive.
02:58:43 <GregorR-L> ...
02:59:11 <RodgerTheGreat> what? It's some light programming fun.
03:01:55 <RodgerTheGreat> here's my 384-byte version with an AI: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1161482453.html
03:07:07 <Sgeo> If anyone has any opinions/comments about http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/MKBL.txt please state them now.
03:07:33 <Sgeo> Someone please state some ideas on how to do ifs
03:08:32 <Sgeo> And what operations should I have?
03:08:49 <Sgeo> probably add, subtract, mult, div
03:08:57 <Sgeo> Anything else?
03:09:26 <Sgeo> Hmm
03:09:33 <Sgeo> I should have a timetable
03:10:44 <RodgerTheGreat> perhaps a variable swap operator?
03:10:53 <RodgerTheGreat> useful for sorting algos and the like.
03:11:21 <Sgeo> How would that work?
03:12:18 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
03:13:14 <RodgerTheGreat> I guess I don't fully understand your language.
03:14:06 <Sgeo> It's meant to be in a metakit dblikething
03:14:50 <Sgeo> Think of order[0,"main","outgoing"] as being a row in table "order" with fields that have values 0, "main", and "outgoing"
03:15:32 <Sgeo> order[time:I,branch:S,tables:S] specifies the fields in the table. order is the table, time is a field that holds an int, branch and tables hold a string
03:16:28 <RodgerTheGreat> ok
03:18:23 <Sgeo> brb
03:18:50 <pikhq> BTW, Basm's BFM source is now up. . .
03:18:57 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/basm.tar.bz2
03:21:39 <Sgeo> back
03:22:27 <Sgeo> bbs
03:31:53 <Sgeo> back
03:31:58 <pikhq> :)
03:32:01 <Sgeo> Should I explain the language more?
03:35:11 * Sgeo pokes pikhq 
03:35:15 <Sgeo> and RodgerTheGreat
03:35:23 <pikhq> Not paying attention. :p
03:35:31 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
03:35:46 * Sgeo goes to add a time table
03:40:37 <Sgeo> OMG I just realized that the time table will make it easy to change branches, or even make branches unneccessary
03:45:32 <Sgeo> Look at http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/MKBL.txt for an explanation of time
03:46:58 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/MKBL.txt
03:47:00 <Sgeo> err
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04:22:50 <Razor-X> #esoteric: Where we all talk about our own projects and listen to no-one else :P
04:24:18 <Razor-X> I finished the specs for SLUMTP.
04:24:41 <Razor-X> (Self-Load UDP Mass Transfer Protocol.)
04:24:47 <Razor-X> Japanese, then implementation!
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04:25:24 <GregorR-L> NOW you're gettin' it!
04:25:41 <GregorR-L> And your priorities are f***'d up if you're translating the spec before implementing it ...
04:26:29 <Razor-X> Well, I would implement it first (which is what I normally do because I'm too lazy to write a spec :P) but I'd forget some key thing I decided on earlier every time I'd neglect to write my notes down.
04:26:51 <Razor-X> So I started making some notes so that I wouldn't forget the decisions I made and then decided to flesh the notes into a cursory set of specs.
04:27:14 <GregorR-L> And this somehow has to do with /translating/ the specs?
04:27:34 <Razor-X> Japanese means doing my daily vocabulary in Japanese -_-''
04:28:16 <GregorR-L> OH
04:28:21 <Razor-X> :P
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04:59:28 <pikhq> Heheheh. . .
05:00:27 * pikhq is proud of basm. . .
05:00:34 * pikhq wonders if anyone else cares :p
05:00:41 <GregorR-L> No.
05:01:05 <pikhq> It's the smallest BF->C compiler in BF. Why should you not care?
05:01:10 <GregorR-L> I was absolutely shocked that somebody mentioned Plof - that's about the most recognition anybody in this channel will give to anybody else :P
05:01:27 <pikhq> Well, yeah.
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05:08:02 <Sgeo> Plof?
05:08:06 <Sgeo> Hi Eidolos
05:08:13 * Sgeo likes BFComp
05:08:28 <Eidolos> Hiya.
05:08:36 <Sgeo> At least, I think I _would_ like it if I had any interest in writing BF stuff
05:09:29 <pikhq> BFM > BFComp. . .
05:09:45 <pikhq> (for efficiency purposes; for nonesotericness, BFComp wins)
05:09:57 <Sgeo> What's BFM?
05:10:37 <pikhq> A macro language for Brainfuck (by me (with much thanks to oerjan)).
05:10:48 <Sgeo> oh
05:11:58 <pikhq> (if you request proof of my statement, allow me to show you basm, as done (naively) in BFComp, and as done in BFM. . .)
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05:13:21 <Sgeo> ok..
05:13:26 <Sgeo> Whynot?
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05:14:03 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/basm.tar.bz2 contains the BFM version (BFM source, and compiled).
05:15:12 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/basm.bfc contains the BFC version, and http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/basm.bf the compilation of the same.
05:15:45 <Sgeo> Thing is, you don't really need to understand and work in BF to do BFComp ;)
05:16:13 <Sgeo> I think
05:16:18 <pikhq> You don't need to understand BF to do BFM, either.
05:16:30 <pikhq> It just makes things assloads more efficient if you do.
05:18:27 <pikhq> Although BFM has a semiTcl syntax, instead of a semiC one.
05:19:53 <Sgeo> What is BF bitwidth?
05:21:13 <pikhq> Most of the included macros assume cells wrap and 8 bits per cell, but BFM can produce code for whatever bitwidth you want (although you might not be able to use stdlib).
05:21:32 * Sgeo meant what is http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck_bitwidth_conversions for
05:21:40 <pikhq> Oh.
05:22:02 <pikhq> Some Brainfuck implementations use 8 bits per cell, others 16, and still others 32. . .
05:23:20 <pikhq> Those allow you to convert code between bitwidths, so it can run on other implementations.
05:29:31 <GregorR-L> And one 64
05:29:50 <pikhq> GregorR-L: And no code.
05:29:59 <GregorR-L> pikhq: :P
05:30:04 <GregorR-L> And I wrote those conversions, btw 8-D
05:30:42 <Sgeo> Surely there are implementations with unlimited bitwidth?
05:31:04 <pikhq> Not unlimited.
05:31:11 <pikhq> bignum implemenations exist, though.
05:31:23 <Sgeo> I meant, limited only to the comps own memory
05:31:30 <pikhq> (these are limited by the available memory on the machine running the program)
05:31:39 <Sgeo> Ah ok
05:31:57 <GregorR-L> I should write bignum support into EgoBF ...
05:32:06 <Sgeo> Conversions can be piled on top of conversions, right?
05:32:13 <pikhq> Using GMP?
05:35:21 <Sgeo> What's GMP?
05:36:11 <GregorR-L> GNU MultiPrecision [math library]
05:36:23 <GregorR-L> Sgeo: Yeah, but it gets exponentially slower
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06:20:05 <RodgerTheGreat> back
06:20:09 <RodgerTheGreat> what's up?
06:20:10 <pikhq> :)
07:00:17 <RodgerTheGreat> kick ASS, I think I just had a breakthrough brainstorm.
07:00:24 <pikhq> Whoo.
07:00:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I shall define the syntax of SYNTHESYS tonight!
07:00:42 <pikhq> Evil bastard.
07:00:49 <RodgerTheGreat> making it stack-based solves *everything*
07:00:51 <RodgerTheGreat> haha
07:01:06 <pikhq> Again: evil bastard.
07:02:17 <RodgerTheGreat> I shall unveil my beautiful creation when a reference interpreter is complete. (still may be a while).
07:02:29 <RodgerTheGreat> and I shall implement it... in Java. :D
07:04:15 <pikhq> Bad man.
07:13:14 <RodgerTheGreat> hm, let's see... concat, split, inc/dec, replace, assign... what else do people want to do with strings?
07:19:20 <RodgerTheGreat> ooh, got it.
07:19:52 <RodgerTheGreat> a specialized form of replace to avoid needing escape sequences.
07:23:32 <RodgerTheGreat> DONE!
07:23:48 <RodgerTheGreat> allow me to tease you all with a hello, world:
07:23:49 <RodgerTheGreat> "Hello, World!"!
07:24:03 <RodgerTheGreat> or, the more interesting version:
07:24:04 <RodgerTheGreat> "XHello, World!X!":#
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08:03:01 <RodgerTheGreat> g'night, everyone.
08:09:11 <Razor-X> Hey! BF friends!
08:09:41 <Razor-X> Why not create a special cell in BF for Linuxes that let you execute kernel syscalls based on adjacent memory positions?
08:39:33 <GregorR-L> I like.
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14:16:49 <ihope> When's the last time somebody said something?
14:20:00 <Asztal> people are saying things all the time
14:20:16 <oerjan> mu
14:21:36 <ihope> What is the answer to the question I meant to ask?
14:23:30 <kipple_> 42
14:26:24 <oerjan> i don't know i haven't read the logs yet. but no one has spoken since i last logged on.
14:27:43 <ihope> Nor here.
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14:53:34 <Sgeo[ZadocStriki> [3:39] <GregorR-L> I like.
14:53:45 <Sgeo[ZadocStriki> Oops
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14:54:25 <Sgeo> Grrrr
14:54:42 <Sgeo> I don't really know my own nickserv pass
14:54:52 <Sgeo> I just have XChat do it
14:55:30 <ihope> Lamer. :-P
14:57:25 <Sgeo> I can't believe I spoke while "striking" though
14:57:36 <Sgeo> Has anyone here read 1/0?
15:03:18 <oerjan> i don't even know what 1/0 refers to
15:06:36 <Sgeo> http://undefined.net/1/0/
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15:50:05 <ihope> Why do we need so many naive set theory paradoxes?
15:50:07 <ihope> Isn't one enough?
15:50:26 <ihope> ...Wrong channel.
15:51:28 <oerjan> so that we don't get to close the holes by just doing simple tricks?
15:52:25 <ihope> Is removing comprehension one of those simple tricks?
15:54:04 <oerjan> it's not removed, it's divided into lots of little pieces.
15:54:37 <oerjan> most of the ZFC axioms are really just pieces of comprehension...
15:54:39 <ihope> What happens if it's removed?
15:55:06 <oerjan> you then have nothing to build sets with
15:55:22 <ihope> So no sets exist, necessarily?
15:55:31 <oerjan> only extensionality and choice
15:55:38 <oerjan> indeed
16:02:22 <pikhq> oerjan: Looked at the basm BFM source yet?
16:02:30 <oerjan> nope
16:02:34 <pikhq> (just assuming you might be interested)
16:02:56 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/basm.tar.bz2 Source to the smallest BF->C compiler in C (that I know of). . .
16:03:48 <oerjan> in BF, i take you mean
16:03:59 <pikhq> Yes. . .
16:04:13 <pikhq> Brain not working. :p
16:07:08 <oerjan> hm, an immediate problem: that initial comment in basm.bfm contains some brainfuck commands
16:07:31 <pikhq> Grr. . . You're right.
16:07:50 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving").
16:07:50 <oerjan> Put [] around it.
16:08:54 <pikhq> Done.
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16:09:26 <pikhq> And new tarball up.
16:10:11 <jix> haha in my current application i'm calling ruby from objective-c then i call objc from ruby again then javascript from objc.....
16:11:24 <pikhq> !
16:11:27 <EgoBot> Huh?
16:12:50 <oerjan> that strings.bfm - it seems a bit inefficient to use cons* macros for everything
16:14:11 <pikhq> It is a bit.
16:14:14 <oerjan> a bit of copying and small additions could compress that
16:14:36 <pikhq> I've just not bothered with a complete rewrite yet.
16:14:41 <oerjan> ok
16:15:00 <pikhq> Using cons* as a stopgap until I get it completely done.
16:15:05 <oerjan> and still this is the largest part of the program?
16:15:24 <oerjan> should expect some major savings then
16:15:32 <pikhq> Actually, it's now about half of the program.
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16:17:20 <oerjan> it seems like there really ought to be defaults for the second argument of @
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16:17:54 <pikhq> Could be a good idea; it'd make things much easier in that large of a program.
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16:23:47 <oerjan> these out* macros, are they that way to avoid long stretches of > and < ?
16:24:09 <pikhq> Easiest way to avoid it for outputting the strings set by strings.bfm.
16:24:35 <oerjan> that's what i thought
16:24:55 <pikhq> [<]<[<]>[>.]>[>]
16:24:59 <pikhq> Err.
16:25:02 <pikhq> [<]<[<]>[.>]>[>]
16:25:04 <pikhq> ;)
16:32:07 <n1\fijikuwai> Asztal: DIE
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16:32:41 <pikhq> n1\fijikuwai: nickserv ghost.
16:32:46 <pikhq> There you go.
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16:32:50 <Asztal> :P
16:33:19 <oerjan> that part setting sc looks suspiciously like cons57 followed by add 2. why not use cons59 instead?
16:35:04 <pikhq> Because doing that adds 2 characters to the compiled output.
16:36:18 <oerjan> i don't understand how that can be..
16:36:35 <pikhq> . . . Oh.
16:36:41 <pikhq> Just realised what you're saying. XD
16:37:34 <pikhq> Yeah; that works.
16:37:50 <oerjan> while cons59 actually uses 63-4 rather than 57+2, those options have the same length.
16:38:21 <pikhq> Except when I need to set the temp cell used to 10 after I'm done.
16:38:49 <pikhq> cons57 sc : nl;add nl 10 gets the job done just as efficiently; thanks for the tip.
16:39:14 <oerjan> you mean cons59, i think
16:40:04 <oerjan> just remove the add sc 2 line
16:40:47 <pikhq> Err.
16:40:56 <pikhq> cons57 sc : nl;add nl 10;add sc 2
16:40:56 <oerjan> of course those variable should really be included in the complete rewriting for strings.bfm when that happens
16:41:19 <pikhq> cons59 sc : nl;add nl 10 gets the job done inefficiently
16:41:21 <pikhq> Of course.
16:41:39 <oerjan> what's inefficient about it?
16:41:58 <pikhq> 2 extra pointless characters.
16:42:03 <pikhq> (pointer movements)
16:42:33 <pikhq> [>+<-]++++++++++>++ vs. [>+<-]>++<++++++++++
16:42:44 <pikhq> (forgive me for not using the actual loop)
16:43:55 <oerjan> oh, now i realize what you mean
16:45:06 <SimonRC> hmm
16:45:49 <SimonRC> I suspect that optimisations could be made if you can prove that the pointer is always at a ceretain place relative to some other place at a certain point in the program
16:46:19 <oerjan> well, the out* macros essentially do that
16:47:22 <oerjan> now i've got it: move the set nl 10 first, and use cons59 sc : as
16:47:50 <pikhq> Still some extra pointer movements.
16:47:54 <pikhq> (I've tried it)
16:48:45 <pikhq> [>>sc<<as]>>++ vs. [>sc<nl]>++
16:49:21 <pikhq> cons57 sc : nl;add nl 10;add sc 2 works.
16:50:27 <oerjan> eh, no, sc and as are just 1 apart, for some reason the addresses are not assigned in order
16:50:39 <pikhq> Oh, right.
16:50:59 <pikhq> I played with that portion of the memory setup a bit. . .
16:51:07 <pikhq> And forgot I did that.
16:51:56 <oerjan> but i think you are still right.
16:52:01 <pikhq> Argh; that still adds 2 extra character movements.
16:52:32 <pikhq> Pointer.
16:53:32 <oerjan> this happens essentially because cons10 is a 1 cell operation
16:53:56 <pikhq> Yeah.
16:53:57 <oerjan> so it pays to do it while you happen to be at nl
16:54:34 <pikhq> Makes things a bit harder to understand, but not severly so.
16:56:53 <oerjan> the only other option is to move nl last in the variable list
16:59:36 <oerjan> hm, no that's not the point either
17:01:53 <pikhq> Or just leave it as-is. ;)
17:02:05 <oerjan> actually there is one possibility for cons59 which does not make any final additions. _that_ would work.
17:02:17 <pikhq> Hmm.
17:03:03 <oerjan> ----[>+++++<----]
17:17:30 <oerjan> i modified my stdcons generating program to prefer algorithms that don't add/subtract at the end. new version at http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/stdcons.bfm
17:17:39 * RodgerTheGreat wakes up
17:17:44 <RodgerTheGreat> hi everyone.
17:18:06 <pikhq> 'Lo.
17:18:10 <pikhq> oerjan: Yay!
17:18:11 <oerjan> hi
17:18:44 <oerjan> note that it naturally still selects only among the shortest algorithms.
17:19:08 <oerjan> so it affects cons59 but not, say, cons58.
17:19:20 <pikhq> oerjan: That brought the size down radically.
17:19:26 <pikhq> 5128 characters now.
17:21:16 <oerjan> wow, it apparently was a widespread problem then. what was the size before?
17:21:36 * Asztal seems to recall 7000
17:21:45 <oerjan> i mean before the latest change
17:21:49 <pikhq> 5140.
17:22:22 <Asztal> That somehow wasn't quite as radical as I expected :P
17:22:42 <pikhq> Not much, but it seems rather signifigant for a change that doesn't change the size of the individual macros.
17:23:02 <oerjan> it only avoids some possible pointer movement afterward
17:23:18 <pikhq> Yeah.
17:26:54 <oerjan> it is rather good for a change that only affected a few numbers: 59, 93, 123, 125 and 163.
17:27:13 <pikhq> Indeed.
17:29:27 <Asztal> :o
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17:36:25 <oerjan> a quick check shows that strings.bfm contained 3 instances of cons59 followed by cons10 - to be expected, as this is ";\n".
17:37:35 <pikhq> That would explain it.
17:37:49 <Sgeo> Someone should make an esolang based on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo.
17:38:32 <oerjan> as well as two instances of 123 10 which is "{\n"
17:38:54 <pikhq> Again: that would explain it.
17:39:05 <oerjan> so by a coincidence two of the affected numbers were very common in C
17:42:21 <oerjan> you know what? change that cons125 cb : end at the beginning of basm.bfm into cons125 cb : nl
17:43:00 <pikhq> That doesn't change a thing size-wise.
17:43:08 <oerjan> hm...
17:43:15 <oerjan> well it might have
17:43:53 <pikhq> Still 5128 characters.
17:45:49 <oerjan> hm, right, it would only change the placement of a movement from end to nl
18:54:29 <ihope> Sgeo: yet another BF clone?
18:54:39 <Sgeo> hm?
18:55:41 <ihope> buffalo buffalo buffalo = +; buffalo buffalo Buffalo = -...
18:56:02 <pikhq> Easy to make a compiler.
18:56:29 <ihope> Now, here's an idea that just sort of hit me: for that BF instruction minimalization thing, make it accept Unary programs terminated with an asterisk.
18:57:59 <ihope> Shouldn't be especially hard to do.
18:58:46 <oerjan> rather hard to program though
18:59:17 <ihope> Hard to program in, or hard to program?
19:00:02 <oerjan> hard to program in
19:00:18 <pikhq> So is Brainfuck; your point? :p
19:00:44 <ihope> Just use a compiler.
19:00:49 <oerjan> actually, impossible to program in
19:01:32 <ihope> Practically impossible, you mean?
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19:02:04 <pikhq> Unary can be compiled to and from Brainfuck, you know.
19:02:40 <oerjan> sure, if you have more than the lifetime of the universe...
19:05:32 <pikhq> http://thegriddle.net/unary/
19:07:12 <oerjan> that's fine. now convert basm.b to unary. tell me when you are finished :)
19:08:04 <pikhq> Argh; said script is a bit borken.
19:08:59 <ihope> oerjan: see, practically impossible.
19:09:25 <ihope> Use Fibonacci codes if you want something a bit more linear rather than exponential.
19:11:38 <pikhq> Unary could be one way of compressing a BF program. . .
19:11:56 <pikhq> Transmit the number of zeros instead of the actual BF code. ;)
19:12:31 <oerjan> that wouldn't be unary, but binary
19:12:49 <ihope> That... wouldn't be compression.
19:13:10 <pikhq> Unary gives you a large amount of 0s.
19:13:24 <pikhq> Count the number of 0s, and you've got the compressed BF.
19:13:40 <oerjan> the string of zeros is unary. their number in binary is binary.
19:13:42 <pikhq> Uncompression: run that number of 0s through Unary->BF.
19:13:49 <ihope> But that wouldn't be compression.
19:13:54 <ihope> Well.
19:13:58 <ihope> No, it wouldnt.
19:14:17 <ihope> You should compress your BF code into more BF code.
19:14:45 <pikhq> ,[.,] vs 56623.
19:15:21 <pikhq> (56623 can be represented very efficiently in binary)
19:15:48 <ihope> Hmm.
19:15:51 <pikhq> Stupid as hell, but it'd work.
19:16:04 <oerjan> 3/8 compression from bf ascii representation to binary
19:16:10 <pikhq> You could probably be more efficient by just representing each BF opcode using 3 bits.
19:16:26 <ihope> Oh, maybe.
19:16:29 <oerjan> eh, Unary is defined by going through that representation
19:34:48 <Sgeo> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/BF-RLE
19:35:09 * Sgeo wrote it :p
19:35:33 <pikhq> BFZ is simpler. :p
19:35:46 <Sgeo> BFZ?
19:36:14 <pikhq> Something I wrote for the esoteric programming contest.
19:36:26 <pikhq> RLEs +, -, > and <.
19:37:43 <Sgeo> How are loops and I/O done?
19:38:57 <pikhq> [].,
19:39:14 <pikhq> It's a compression program for inefficient Brainfuck. . .
19:39:52 <Sgeo> Oh
19:39:58 <Sgeo> I misunderstood what you said
19:40:29 <Sgeo> Are specs available?
19:40:40 <pikhq> Not really; quick hack.
19:41:03 <Sgeo> Is it safe to say that BF-RLE is more efficient =P?
19:41:14 * Sgeo keeps trying to find a reason to gloat
19:41:47 <pikhq> No, BF-RLE probably isn't.
19:41:54 <pikhq> BF-RLE isn't even implemented.
19:42:01 <pikhq> BFZ is implemented. . . In Brainfuck.
19:48:10 <Sgeo> There's a language somehow based on BF-RLE :p
19:48:50 * pikhq recently discovered Trainfuck. . .
19:49:05 <pikhq> Brainfuck+network I/O+file I/O.
19:49:18 <pikhq> I should write an HTTP daemon in it, just for the hell of it. :p
19:56:06 <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Sgeo/binbf
19:58:10 <Sgeo> hmm
19:58:17 <Sgeo> I'm not sure if it's ever even useful
19:59:38 * Sgeo wrote that stuff waaay too long ago
20:01:56 <Sgeo> Though if you want pain, look at previous revisions
20:04:58 <Sgeo> oO Network Headache is implemented??
20:28:09 <ihope> I oughta run my own server.
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21:08:00 * pikhq is bored. . .
21:08:07 <pikhq> I should play with FukYourBrane a bit.
21:08:21 <pikhq> Perhaps a self-replicator?
21:12:44 <jix> Sgeo: why use adaptive huffman coding
21:12:56 <jix> why not use some arithmetic coding like a range coder?
21:13:01 <Sgeo> range coder?
21:13:30 <jix> Sgeo: you know arithmetic coding?
21:13:37 <Sgeo> no..
21:14:07 <jix> it's a better form of entropy encoding than huffman
21:14:34 <jix> huffman approximates the optimal information that is needed for each symbol by whole bit lengths.... but that isn't optimal
21:14:53 <jix> arithmetic coding isn't limited to that.... so it generates smaller output
21:14:55 <jix> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_coding
21:15:12 <jix> and the range coder is a patent free way of doing arithmetic coding (many others are patented)
21:15:52 <jix> one of the big advantages is that there is no sorting involved... you can work right from the probabilities... no need to generate a tree... that makes it faster for adaptive encoders
21:16:38 <Sgeo> The thing was really designed for Huffman
21:16:44 <Sgeo> Don't know if it can be changed
21:16:51 <jix> Sgeo: it can
21:17:08 <jix> arithmetic coding does roughly the same as huffman
21:17:10 <jix> only a bit better
21:18:24 <jix> hmm what's fgk?
21:18:57 <Eidolos> "[arithmetic coding] will often approach optimal entropy encoding much more closely than Huffman can."
21:19:09 <pikhq> Whoohooo. I created a program which actually fails against nothing.fyb.
21:19:27 <jix> imho fyb is seriously flawed
21:19:45 <pikhq> I was attempting to make a replicator. . .
21:19:52 <pikhq> And I made nothing.fyb win.
21:20:11 <Sgeo> jix, I saw it mentioned under the Huffman entry
21:20:23 <jix> well it is just too easy to get some non looping code to setup bombs in some critical parts very fast that any attempt to do some logic will fail
21:20:26 <Sgeo> I chose FGK just so there's some standard one used
21:22:51 <pikhq> And he's got programs combating that.
21:25:21 <jix> pikhq: huh what?
21:27:44 * Sgeo laffs at http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/mackay/itila/Potter.html
21:30:04 <oerjan> bwahargh
21:30:39 <Sgeo> hm?
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21:32:54 <oerjan> In conclusion, we can give a cautious recommendation of Harry Potter only to speakers of Welsh and Latin; for everyone else, we recommend Information Theory, Inference, and Learning Algorithms.
21:39:09 <pikhq> I think I've got a self-replicator.
21:42:41 <pikhq> There is one problem with it. . . As it's a self-replicator, it doesn't really write bombs.
21:57:49 <Sgeo> IRP: Please provide the decimal expansion of Ackermann(4,3)
22:08:48 <pikhq> ERROR: Don't wanna.
22:16:30 <pikhq> I've created a guaranteed-lose FYB program.
22:16:44 <pikhq> nothing.fyb beats it.
22:16:49 <Sgeo> hmm?
22:16:56 <Sgeo> h/o
22:17:24 <pikhq> !fyb http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/foo.fyb
22:17:26 <EgoBot> Running...
22:17:28 <pikhq> Watch and laugh.
22:17:33 <pikhq> Grr.
22:17:47 <Sgeo> Where are the specs??
22:17:59 <pikhq> -13.
22:18:03 <pikhq> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/fyb/
22:18:14 <pikhq> It lost against ever program EgoBot has.
22:19:04 <pikhq> Including ones you can't lose against.
22:19:06 <Sgeo> Wouldn't * be an all-lose?
22:20:18 <pikhq> That would explain why it doesn't work. XD
22:20:38 <Sgeo> I meant just a standalone *
22:20:48 <pikhq> Hmm. . . Still an all-lose.
22:20:50 <pikhq> Probably.
22:21:05 <pikhq> Yeah.
22:21:44 <Sgeo> My * would lose even against your all-lose I think =P
22:22:31 <Sgeo> !fyb http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/all_lose.fyb
22:22:40 <EgoBot> Running...
22:23:29 <Sgeo> total points: -12
22:23:53 <Sgeo> <EgoBot> all_lose.fyb
22:23:53 <Sgeo> <EgoBot>   [x] all_lose.fyb
22:24:06 <pikhq> It does.
22:25:23 <Sgeo> hm?
22:25:43 <Sgeo> oh
22:26:14 <pikhq> {+!>}
22:26:19 <pikhq> Seek and mangle. ;)
22:26:55 <Sgeo> pikhq, what about it?
22:27:48 <Sgeo> Oh wow couldn't that choke due to trying to commit a @?
22:28:09 <pikhq> It attempts to find the pointer; at the same time, it mangles the array. . .
22:28:09 <Sgeo> Well, * would still suicide
22:28:12 <pikhq> Yeah, it would.
22:31:38 * pikhq needs to beat logicex-2.fyb
22:34:19 <Sgeo> What is logicex?
22:34:45 <pikhq> !fyb http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bomber.fyb
22:34:48 <EgoBot> Running...
22:34:50 <pikhq> A horrible good FYB program.
22:35:39 <pikhq> 6 points on that one.
22:35:48 <pikhq> Beats logicex-1.fyb. :)
23:08:36 * pikhq has it subverting defects now
23:10:14 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, yes- corewar's painfully deformed cousing- FYB.
23:10:20 <RodgerTheGreat> *cousin
23:12:48 -!- tgwizard has quit ("Leaving").
23:18:54 <ihope> !!!!!
23:18:57 <EgoBot> Huh?
23:19:05 <RodgerTheGreat> lol
23:19:12 <ihope> (Nothing happened; I just feel like using an extra exclamation mark or two!!!!!)
23:19:18 <RodgerTheGreat> ah
23:19:32 <ihope> Dunno why; just... need a vent.
23:19:43 <ihope> See, my vents are always nice little ones.
23:20:10 <ihope> Except I need to vent a little of this too: :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
23:20:14 <ihope> There.
23:20:50 <RodgerTheGreat> refreshing.
23:22:55 * ihope registers #vents as a place for venting
23:23:10 <ihope> Actually, ##vents would be a better channel.
23:23:55 <RodgerTheGreat> so, anyway, I completed the spec for a language I've been working on for a while last night, and I'm debating between releasing the spec now and trying to get help building libraries for it or waiting until I finish a reference interpreter.
23:24:25 <ihope> Why not release it now?
23:25:22 <RodgerTheGreat> well, it always seems pretty lame to come up with a language and show it off before you've completed the hard part- a functioning interpreter.
23:25:49 <ihope> That's what I've been doing.
23:25:53 <pikhq> Let me implement it; no nasty Java for us. :p
23:26:01 <oerjan> hey who are you calling lame :)
23:26:05 <RodgerTheGreat> what would you implement it in?
23:26:14 <ihope> Java2000!
23:26:19 <ihope> Or whatever that's called.
23:26:25 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. Java2K
23:26:27 <pikhq> Tcl or C.
23:26:42 <pikhq> Or, if I'm insane, Brainfuck.
23:26:47 <ihope> Or Thue.
23:26:55 <pikhq> Or Glass.
23:26:56 * Sgeo didn't make an interpreter for BF-RLE..
23:26:58 <pikhq> Maybe ORK.
23:27:01 <ihope> Or even Thubi.
23:27:02 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I'd still most likely implement it in Java regardless, but if there's interest, what the hell...
23:27:03 <Sgeo> Then again, I think I'm just lame
23:27:04 <ihope> Ah, Glass.
23:27:17 <Sgeo> And the language is rather trivial
23:30:59 <RodgerTheGreat> ok, here's my creation- SYNTHESYS: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1161556217.html
23:32:03 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a stack-based language with named string variables and some macroing and self-modification abilities.
23:32:40 <jix> people where are your entries?
23:32:51 <RodgerTheGreat> I already sent mine in.
23:33:01 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: yeah but you are the only one
23:33:15 <RodgerTheGreat> woo. I have defined the language spec singlehandedly.
23:34:09 <Sgeo> Hmm
23:34:20 <Sgeo> I could do statements from MKBL
23:34:32 <Sgeo> But that would break the language irreversibly I think
23:36:01 <jix> pikhq: is there a bfm tutorial anywhere or documentation or at least something?
23:37:30 <pikhq> jix: I unfortunately rewrite the interpreter much faster than I update the specs.
23:38:23 <pikhq> If anyone wishes it, I shall begin the BFM tutorial here (in a similar manner to the Glass tutorial Gregor did a while back).
23:39:10 <RodgerTheGreat> ok, I'll take this as showing no interest in synth.
23:39:24 <pikhq> I'm actually wondering how I shall interpret it right now.
23:39:28 * pikhq is rather interested
23:40:05 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: i'm interested but i don't get it from the specs
23:40:16 <RodgerTheGreat> I think this is the best combo of concise syntax and extensibility without being cripplingly hard.
23:40:29 <RodgerTheGreat> hm.
23:40:47 <RodgerTheGreat> I could explain one of the code examples, if you think that would help.
23:41:23 <pikhq> I just don't see how one declares macros.
23:42:05 <RodgerTheGreat> you push a named variable to assign it to, then a string literal (or equivalent), and then use the assignment operator. (@).
23:42:36 <RodgerTheGreat> then you can call the macro by pushing it's parameters, then it's name, and using the execute operator (#).
23:42:47 <jix> ah
23:42:56 <pikhq> Oh. . . I see.
23:42:56 <jix> i'm very interested now
23:42:58 <pikhq> So. . .
23:43:20 <pikhq> 'sum' "[-~+],"@
23:43:21 <jix> is there a way to split a string literal?
23:43:33 <pikhq> ??sum#
23:43:35 <pikhq> That it?
23:44:03 <RodgerTheGreat> if I do  'sum' "[-~+~],"@  and then "4""5"'sum'#
23:44:09 <RodgerTheGreat> then that will add the two.
23:44:20 <jix> idea make macro names and string literals the same
23:44:24 <pikhq> So, my call would be ??'sum'#, not ??sum#
23:44:27 <RodgerTheGreat> "4" 5 'sum' also works.
23:44:37 <pikhq> (adding two chars from stdin)
23:45:07 <RodgerTheGreat> macros are just strings, in effect, and so invoking them works the same as pushing a string reference (which is what you're literally doing)
23:45:25 <pikhq> I'm thinking about how I'd parse this; it wouldn't be all *that* hard to do. . . Just need to do it. . .
23:45:36 <RodgerTheGreat> there is a difference between 9 and "9", of course.
23:45:49 <RodgerTheGreat> one is a numeric literal and one is a string literal.
23:45:55 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: but there is adifference between 'asd' and "asd" or is ther none?
23:46:06 <RodgerTheGreat> I designed it to be pretty easy to parse.
23:46:08 <pikhq> 'asd' is a variable, "asd" is a string.
23:46:14 <RodgerTheGreat> exactly
23:46:15 <jix> i say remove the difference
23:46:19 <RodgerTheGreat> ...
23:46:27 <pikhq> "asd"'asd'@
23:46:27 <RodgerTheGreat> then how would you use named references?
23:46:41 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: well variables are pushed on the stack right?
23:46:43 <jix> strings too right?
23:47:03 <RodgerTheGreat> variables are *references* to strings, not the string itself.
23:47:11 <jix> yeah
23:47:23 <jix> nargh
23:47:27 <jix> i can't explain
23:47:28 <RodgerTheGreat> being exclusively stack-based could make this a great deal harder to use.
23:47:53 <jix> it would be possible to use strings as references to strings
23:47:54 <pikhq> I see it being a bit easier in some ways.
23:48:04 <pikhq> (stacks don't bother me all that much. . .)
23:50:15 <RodgerTheGreat> well, the language would need need more stack-management operators.
23:57:39 <ihope> Pointy is all about pointers.
23:59:52 <jix> pikhq: btw i want a bfm introduction...

2006-10-23:

00:00:13 <pikhq> Mmkay. . . Before I start; anyone *else* care?'
00:00:31 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: you are interested arn't you?
00:00:43 <RodgerTheGreat> in BFM?
00:00:46 <jix> yes
00:00:54 <RodgerTheGreat> I guess it could be interesting
00:01:00 <pikhq> oerjan: Feel free to discuss it, too; you're the other person who understands it right now. :p
00:01:10 <jix> but let me solve this rubics cube first....
00:01:26 <pikhq> If you don't get it in 3 minutes, I'll smack you upside the head.
00:01:32 <jix> ok
00:01:40 <pikhq> In the meantime, I'll solve mine, too.
00:02:41 <jix> done
00:03:11 <jix> pikhq: you too?
00:03:48 <pikhq> Done.
00:03:57 <pikhq> Let's start, then.
00:04:00 <jix> ok
00:04:19 <pikhq> First, we've got the commands that allow BFM to be Brainfuck complete. . .
00:04:30 <pikhq> add variable number
00:04:47 <jix> variable number?
00:05:04 <oerjan> add <variable> <number>
00:05:07 <jix> ah
00:05:14 <jix> uhm and what is variable?
00:05:17 <pikhq> Sorry; should be less vague.
00:05:32 <pikhq> Adds <number> to <variable>. . .
00:05:46 <pikhq> subtract <variable> <number>
00:05:54 <pikhq> Self-explanitory from that.
00:05:54 <jix> yeah but what can variable be?
00:06:02 <pikhq> @ <variable> <location>
00:06:04 <jix> ah
00:06:20 <pikhq> Declares a variable <variable> at <location> in the Brainfuck memory.
00:06:37 <pikhq> (a variable "current" is automatically declared)
00:07:10 <pikhq> current just means that the operation acts on the current location in the Brainfuck memory.
00:07:14 <pikhq> right <number>
00:07:27 <pikhq> Moves right <number> in the Brainfuck memory.
00:07:31 <pikhq> left <number>
00:07:40 <pikhq> Same, except s/right/left/.
00:07:48 <jix> wont it get quite confused when one tries to write moving code?
00:08:03 <pikhq> at <variable>
00:08:17 <oerjan> yes. it is wise to use only the current variable in combination with right/left.
00:08:22 <pikhq> Tells the compiler that the current location is the <variable>'s location.
00:08:30 <jix> ah
00:08:47 <pikhq> It's not merely wise, it's the only thing you can do sanely.
00:09:11 <pikhq> while <variable> {<code>}
00:09:16 <oerjan> and then you use at to switch back to known positions
00:09:23 <pikhq> While <variable>!=0, execute <code>.
00:09:44 <pikhq> Finally:
00:09:49 <pikhq> set <variable> <number>
00:09:53 <jix> are the macros written for wrapping code or for nonwrapping?
00:10:19 <pikhq> Pretty much the same as "while <variable> {subtract <variable> 1};add <variable> <number>".
00:10:29 <pikhq> jix: wrapping.
00:10:34 <jix> ok
00:10:48 <pikhq> So, that's it for pure Brainfuck equivalency. . .
00:10:53 <RodgerTheGreat> do you have arrays implemented?
00:11:03 <oerjan> the stdlib assumes wrapping. the base commands might work in either way
00:11:07 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I've not done an array macro yet.
00:11:13 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
00:11:39 <pikhq> So, we've got a few more commands left. . .
00:11:43 <RodgerTheGreat> since they'd amount to a datatype, rather than a function, it might be best to make them part of the spec.
00:11:43 <pikhq> is0 <variable>
00:11:59 <pikhq> Tells the compiler that <variable>=0.
00:12:03 <pikhq> isnot0 <variable>
00:12:13 <pikhq> Same, except <variable>!=0.
00:12:34 <jix> does is0 produce code to set variable = 0 or tells it only the compiler...
00:13:14 <pikhq> jix: Only tells the compiler, so the compiler won't set it to 0 again (when it's optimizing). . . Those two commands are only needed if the compiler's assumptions are wrong.
00:13:47 <pikhq> They do nothing when you've not enabled optimization.
00:13:48 <jix> cool
00:13:57 <jix> hmm
00:13:59 <RodgerTheGreat> interesting
00:14:01 <pikhq> And one last command:
00:14:07 * jix is thinking of implementing some highlevel lang using bfm as backend
00:14:31 <pikhq> macro <name> {<input>} {<output>} {<temp>} {<code>}
00:15:05 <pikhq> Declares a macro <name>, which executes <code>, with <input>, <output>, and <temp> as arguments.
00:15:13 <pikhq> A macro would be called as follows:
00:15:28 <pikhq> <name> <input> > <output> : <temp>
00:16:01 <pikhq> (the seperation of arguments into input, output, and temp are just to make code calling the macro easier to understand)
00:16:05 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
00:16:18 <oerjan> <input> <output> and <temp> can each contain several variables
00:16:25 <oerjan> or none
00:16:51 <pikhq> The > and : are only needed when you've got output or temp arguments.
00:17:24 <oerjan> btw pikhq i noticed that there is currently no way to have only output and temp arguments
00:17:32 <pikhq> Argh; forgot a handful of commands.
00:17:45 <pikhq> oerjan: Need to fix that.
00:17:50 <pikhq> in <variable>
00:18:00 <pikhq> Takes input, and puts it into <variable>.
00:18:03 <pikhq> out <variable>
00:18:10 <pikhq> Outputs <variable>.
00:18:16 <pikhq> source <file>
00:18:28 <pikhq> Executes the code in <file>.
00:19:02 <pikhq> (^ is replaced with the location of the stdlib macro library)
00:19:18 <pikhq> comment {<text>}
00:19:37 <pikhq> A comment block (when the compiler isn't told to strip this, it gets sent with the output).
00:19:46 <pikhq> That's all, I believe.
00:19:56 <pikhq> Unless you want an exhaustive spec of the macros in stdlib?
00:20:05 <jix> pikhq: no i don't
00:20:21 <pikhq> Good; I'm not willing to talk about those right now.
00:20:44 <jix> hmm i have a feature suggestion.... tool <some_tool_in_path> <arg1> <arg2> <arg3> and the stdout of the tool gets inserted into the code
00:20:57 <oerjan> the macros in stdlib are in any case good to read to see how to code in the language
00:22:23 <pikhq> (the compiler may act oddly on code that's nonstandard, so don't do it!)
00:23:04 <oerjan> what do you mean by nonstandard?
00:23:30 <pikhq> while [variable] ("[ Wheee! ]') {code}
00:23:32 <pikhq> :p
00:24:07 <pikhq> (I *think* that would make the compiler vomit on your terminal)
00:24:21 <jix> let's try that
00:24:49 <oerjan> so nonstandard = syntax error
00:24:59 <pikhq> Yeah.
00:25:16 <jix> only 15 lines
00:25:43 <jix> oh wait
00:25:48 <jix> i called the interpreter wrong
00:26:02 <pikhq> ./bfm --file file.bfm > file.b
00:26:08 <jix> why --file?
00:26:18 <pikhq> Or: ./bfm --file file.bfm --strip 1 --optimize 1 > file.b
00:26:29 <pikhq> Haven't bothered getting the command line parser done right.
00:26:35 <jix> ah ok
00:29:54 <pikhq> Any luck?
00:33:56 <jix> is it possible to pass numbers as arguments to macros?
00:34:10 <pikhq> Only variables.
00:35:07 <oerjan> have you tried?
00:35:13 <jix> no
00:35:28 <pikhq> Only variables, according to the spec; whether it works on the compiler or not is beyond me. . .
00:35:41 <pikhq> Err. . .
00:35:49 * pikhq beats his brain into submission
00:36:01 <jix> why?
00:36:03 <oerjan> it could be useful to have numbers too
00:36:26 <pikhq> The question, then, is how to get it integrated into the spec. . .
00:36:35 <pikhq> And the compiler.
00:36:55 <pikhq> Hmm.
00:37:49 <pikhq> macro {<input>} {<output>} {<temp>} {<number>} {<code>}?
00:37:57 <oerjan> i should think the compiler already allows it
00:37:59 <pikhq> macro <name> {<input>} {<output>} {<temp>} {<number>} {<code>}, I mean.
00:38:05 <pikhq> . . . Oh.
00:38:19 <pikhq> Just change the spec, then? :p
00:39:39 <pikhq> Yeah, it does work.
00:39:56 <Asztal> After banging my head against the wall for a while, I think I've got my trefunge instruction wrapping working. Now to test it. :D
00:39:59 <pikhq> Fine; macros can be passed variables or numbers (be careful with this).
00:40:06 <pikhq> Voila.
00:40:46 <oerjan> for what it's worth you could probably squeeze through {} blocks too i expect
00:41:09 <pikhq> Hmm?
00:42:13 <jix> oerjan: pikhq: GregorR: ihope: everyone else don't forget to submit your statements!
00:42:38 <pikhq> jix: I'm thinking about what they should be.
00:43:09 <oerjan> i am not sure whether to submit what i have or try to improve it
00:43:34 <jix> oerjan: even if you don't have many or some that arn't that funny.... together with the rest they will be
00:43:49 <jix> boring statements are 1000x better than no statements at all
00:43:56 <ihope> Mmh.
00:44:01 <oerjan> oh they are all somewhat insane
00:44:09 <jix> oerjan: well no problem then
00:44:16 <jix> ouch
00:44:20 <jix> oerjan: i misread your msg
00:44:30 <pikhq> jix: If you want to see a finished BFM project, http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/basm.tar.bz2 (understanding it could be a bit difficult; sorry).
00:44:42 <jix> i am not sure whether to submit < i thought OH NO!!!>  <what i have or try to improve it: i ignored this part>
00:45:15 <pikhq> What's your email again?
00:45:23 <jix> pikhq: jannis@harderweb.de
00:45:56 <jix> thats <my_forename>@<my_surname>web.de easy to remember
00:46:19 <oerjan> pikhq: i think {} blocks can also be macro arguments
00:47:13 <oerjan> after all the macro and while commands essentially work that way
00:47:43 <pikhq> oerjan: Ah.
00:47:59 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.zib.de/zuse/Inhalt/Kommentare/Html/0684/universal2.html <- FOUND IT! This article is fascinating. I mentioned it a few weeks ago, but I didn't want to scan it in from my book for fear of summoning copyright demons.
00:53:00 <pikhq> I've got 3 commands so far. . .
00:53:22 <pikhq> I think you'll laugh hysterically at them. ;)
00:53:30 <RodgerTheGreat> ok
00:53:58 <RodgerTheGreat> "The result shown in this paper seems counterintuitive, until we realize that operations like multiplication and division are iterative computations in which branching decisions are taken by the hardware."
00:54:04 <RodgerTheGreat> "The conditional branchings we need are embedded in these arithmetical operations and the whole purpose of the transformations used is to lift the branches up from the hardware in which they are buried to the software level, so that we can control the program flow. The whole magic of the transformation consists in making the hardware branchings visible to the programmer."
00:54:15 <RodgerTheGreat> ^ sums up the paper well.
01:05:08 * pikhq has sent off his entry
01:05:21 <pikhq> jix: Feel free to laugh as soon as you see my entry.
01:06:25 <jix> i'll wait with looking at them until the deadline
01:06:31 <jix> will be more fun to read them all at once
01:06:52 <pikhq> You'll get a kick out of mine, I assure you.
01:07:16 <jix> i hope we get a lot of funny and incompatible syntax ^^
01:08:11 <pikhq> Mine has three syntax types in it.
01:08:31 <jix> mine doesn't really has syntax it's just nargh i can't explain without showing them....
01:08:32 * pikhq grins evilly
01:08:49 <jix> you could say mine has 15 types of syntax or so ^^
01:09:29 <pikhq> Got a bit over 21 hours to go.
01:09:43 <pikhq> (I think)
01:09:47 <jix> yeah
01:10:03 <jix> oh and if someone hasn't 15 statements yet and thinks ah this one really has to go in you can submit a 2nd mail
01:10:06 <pikhq> It *is* 01:09 UTC, right?
01:10:12 <jix> pikhq: dunno
01:10:23 <jix> pikhq: i was on some website that had an uhm dunno what clock
01:10:37 <jix> i allways fuck up times between time zones :|
01:11:05 * pikhq only submitted 8 (4 of which were defined in terms of the others). . .
01:11:08 <jix> 00:10:39 gmt sais this side
01:11:43 <pikhq> 22 hours, then (thought I was in UTC-7, not UTC-6; damn you, daylight savings time!).
01:13:07 <jix> i'm 2 hours ahead of gmt now but 1 hour ahead when the other daylight saving state is....
01:16:35 <pikhq> Anyone else care to submit?
01:16:40 <pikhq> We need your evil ideas.
01:16:51 <jix> well there is plenty of time left... i just wanted to remember everyone
01:17:01 <pikhq> Bit under a day.
01:17:09 <jix> and i expect GregorR to submit ideas... he always has good ideas....
01:17:16 -!- anonfunc has joined.
01:17:22 <GregorR> Garr
01:17:30 <jix> GregorR: whatis?
01:17:35 <GregorR> Do you have anything resembl---oh right, you're not reading it.
01:17:54 <GregorR> How about basic guidelines for statement structure?  How can we submit statements if we don't know what a statement looks like :P
01:18:03 <GregorR> line-separated?  ;-separated?
01:18:07 <jix> GregorR: well it can be anything!
01:18:08 <jix> no limits
01:18:13 <jix> just come up with something
01:18:23 <jix> might be that your particular statement needs a ; and some others don't
01:18:44 <pikhq> Razor-X: How's judging going on the contest?
01:18:45 <GregorR> What abouve variables.
01:18:47 <GregorR> Are there variables?
01:18:56 <jix> GregorR: well if you need variables just use them
01:19:00 <jix> there will be variables then
01:19:04 <jix> if you want a tape.... just use it
01:19:10 <jix> same for stack / whatever
01:19:12 <GregorR> But if there are only variables in two statements, that's sort of ridiculous :P
01:19:23 <pikhq> That's the idea.
01:19:47 <jix> of course there will be a way to swap data between tape/variables if needed etc.... but that's part of the 2nd round...
01:19:50 <pikhq> One thing we'll have is the hardest to implement language ever.
01:20:15 * pikhq has a tape, stack, *and* variables used by his statements. . .
01:20:18 <pikhq> Bwahahaha!
01:20:39 <pikhq> My statements alone also provide for Turing completeness.
01:21:06 <jix> hmm i dunne but i think mine would too
01:21:26 <jix> i hope we get nondeterminism somehow
01:23:36 <GregorR> How many am I supposed to do?
01:23:59 <jix> GregorR: between 5 and 15
01:25:45 * pikhq feels that this language is going to be really hard to parse
01:25:55 <GregorR> Yeah :P
01:26:00 <GregorR> I have no intention of helping with that
01:26:49 * pikhq drags you into that
01:28:31 <jix> i'm sure there wont be a compiler for the language
01:29:13 <jix> i'm sure i should go into bed now
01:30:55 <pikhq> It's a requirement. ;p
01:31:14 <GregorR> Well, I have three ...
01:31:18 <pikhq> (at least, an implementation is required)
01:34:12 <GregorR> Sending to jix, right?
01:34:32 <jix> GregorR: yes to my email address
01:34:49 <jix> GregorR: but you have a few ours left....
01:35:11 <jix> +h
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01:49:38 <Sgeo> Hmm
01:49:56 * Sgeo doesn't know if he should use the incoming table for computations etc
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02:47:48 <Sgeo_> <palomer> a programming language based on lojban would be fun!
02:49:10 * Sgeo_ has a lot of ideas for MKBL
02:49:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out).
02:50:16 <pikhq> Dear lord. . .
02:51:26 <Sgeo_> hm?
02:52:18 <pikhq> Language based on Lojban. . . Craziness.
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03:00:57 * pikhq sighs
03:01:25 <TehCommando> Please evaluate (8 * 9)^56
03:02:03 <pikhq> PROGRAMMER ERROR: /dev/coffee is out. Refill mug.
03:03:01 <Sgeo_> Answer: 102475441987519000200272610048162721086802501989166604512727563935541058327937254889964982197984476266496
03:03:05 <TehCommando> return full mug
03:03:25 <Sgeo_> IRP>
03:03:43 <pikhq> PROGRAMMER ERROR: I don't interperet math until it's RPN or sexp.
03:04:53 <TehCommando> return 0
03:05:28 <Sgeo_> PROGRAMMER ERROR: Unwanted terseness
03:06:00 <pikhq> (I (not (do)) (want (to)) .)
03:06:09 <TehCommando> please print and mail "file.doc" to me
03:06:27 <Sgeo_> 404 File Not Found
03:06:42 <TehCommando> please find "file.doc"
03:06:44 <pikhq> IRP ERROR: IRP shutting down.
03:06:49 <Sgeo_> 410 Gone
03:07:07 <pikhq> !EgoBot will take care of your needs.
03:07:09 * EgoBot will take care of your needs.
03:07:40 <TehCommando> please thank everyone else here
03:07:58 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to EveryoneElseHere.
03:08:39 * EveryoneElseHere is thanked.
03:09:11 <TehCommando> please give my brother a haircut
03:09:33 <EveryoneElseHere> ERROR: Brother not found in vicinity.
03:09:50 <EveryoneElseHere> ERROR: Location of TehCommando unknown
03:09:50 <TehCommando> please rename me to "Asdquefty"
03:10:21 <EveryoneElseHere> ERROR: I-am-not-you
03:10:29 <pikhq> IRP> programmers: Please echo "/ignore TehCommando".
03:10:39 <TehCommando> thx bye
03:10:40 <EveryoneElseHere> "/ignore TehCommando"
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03:11:06 -!- EveryoneElseHere has changed nick to Sgeo.
03:30:00 <Sgeo> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/MKBL-LN
03:30:34 <Sgeo> It's a start of a spec
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03:39:31 <Asztal> PROGRAMMER IS OVERLY POLITE.
03:41:41 <pikhq> Hahah.
03:42:15 <Sgeo> Any comments on MKBL-LN so far?
03:51:45 <pikhq> Participate in language design.
04:01:40 <Razor-X> Ah. INTERCAL is fun :D.
04:02:05 <Razor-X> I feel like playing around with ASM and Forth instead of implementing SLUMTP.
04:02:43 <pikhq> Razor-X: Have you even *looked* at the entries for the contest yet?
04:02:47 <pikhq> It's been nearly a month.
04:02:57 <Razor-X> pikhq: Somewhat.
04:03:03 <Razor-X> I've looked at yours.
04:03:11 <Razor-X> But I mean, the committee has not convened.
04:03:25 <pikhq> The contest has been *over* for a month; the commitee should've convened weeks ago. -_-'
04:03:45 <Razor-X> Well, I just got un-busy technically yesterday.
04:04:01 <Razor-X> I'm not sure where everyone else has been.
04:04:13 <Razor-X> GregorR is bantering less than usual too :(
04:04:44 <Razor-X> How about this!
04:04:47 <GregorR> Gregor + 19 credit hours + 20 work hours = foo
04:05:15 <Razor-X> Committee! Meet in ##quantum in 24 hours!
04:05:32 <GregorR> I'll be in class in 24 hrs.
04:07:33 <Razor-X> 25 hours then?
04:07:57 <GregorR> I'll be on my way home in 25 hrs :P
04:08:04 <Razor-X> How about 6 * 24 hou?
04:08:05 <Razor-X> *hours
04:08:26 <GregorR> Saturdays are all free :P
04:08:35 <Razor-X> Hooray geeks with no lives!
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04:53:07 <Sgeo> No comments on MKBL-LN?
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05:34:28 <RodgerTheGreat> hey, Razor-X- I finished the spec for "synthesys" http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1161556217.html
06:24:21 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: Lemme take a looksee.
06:24:48 <Razor-X> Also, are you free to meet for the first of probably many judging meetings next Saturday?
06:26:01 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, sure.
06:26:07 <RodgerTheGreat> my weekends are generally free.
06:26:13 <Razor-X> Awesome.
06:27:53 <Razor-X> What does pop 2 mean?
06:28:24 <RodgerTheGreat> pop the top two arguments from the stack.
06:28:36 <Razor-X> Aha.
06:28:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I then refer to them by their order, [1] being first, [2] second and so on.
06:29:06 <RodgerTheGreat> it seemed like the least ambiguous way to say it.
06:29:59 <Razor-X> Aha.
06:30:12 <Razor-X> I don't mean to be a pain or anything, but you might want to dry a small Stack drawing.
06:30:23 <Razor-X> Like: |1|2| -> |2|
06:30:28 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. might be a good idea.
06:30:37 <Razor-X> Or use Forth style comments.
06:30:46 <RodgerTheGreat> I plan on making a more nicely formatted and better explained version of the spec soon.
06:31:16 <Razor-X> Ah.
06:32:05 <Razor-X> So @ pop's the first two things off the stack?
06:32:19 <RodgerTheGreat> it's an assignment operator.
06:32:26 <Razor-X> Oh, nevermind.
06:32:27 <Razor-X> I see!
06:32:33 <Razor-X> Concat made it make sense, heh.
06:32:53 <RodgerTheGreat> the stack can contain literal values or variables.
06:33:15 <Razor-X> Are you sure you don't want to make + pop [1], push [1] + 1 ?
06:34:27 <RodgerTheGreat> well, that might be a better way to explain it, but remember- all variables are essentially strings. I wanted to make it clear that + and - operate on the first (or only) character of a string.
06:38:34 <Razor-X> Well, that would be different behavior.
06:38:53 <Razor-X> Because you could have |'a'|'b'| then a +, and you would have |'b'|'b'| right?
06:39:02 <RodgerTheGreat> yes
06:39:12 <Razor-X> The version I proposed would be mork ``stack-ish'' is all I meant to say.
06:39:17 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
06:39:28 <Razor-X> *more
06:39:47 <Razor-X> Because Synthesis would be trivial to implement on any stack based device.
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06:40:49 <RodgerTheGreat> to a degree. #  and : are what make it very powerful, and % is a convenient feature.
06:41:17 <RodgerTheGreat> the stack is more of a means to an end- they make it extremely easy to create long chains of function calls.
06:41:40 <Razor-X> Ah.
06:42:16 <Razor-X> : is the super operator ;D
06:43:07 <RodgerTheGreat> : allows programmers to create functions that contain functions, and so on easily, as string literals are an essential to declaring functions.
06:43:32 <RodgerTheGreat> and the fact that functions are themselves strings makes it trivially easy to make use of self-modifying code- just change the string.
06:43:45 <Razor-X> Hmm... can you demonstrate a function for me?
06:43:48 <Razor-X> Simple.
06:44:06 <RodgerTheGreat> 'sum' "[-~+~],"@
06:44:14 <RodgerTheGreat> defines a function,
06:44:24 <RodgerTheGreat> 'a' 'b' 'sum' #
06:44:49 <RodgerTheGreat> will add together the contents of a and b (or the first characters)
06:46:08 <Razor-X> Ah hah.
06:47:49 <RodgerTheGreat> if I wanted a function that contained said function, I could do 'fun' "'sum' X[-~+~],X@":@
06:48:11 <RodgerTheGreat> then, 'fun' # will redefine the sum function.
06:48:31 <RodgerTheGreat> have I captured your imagination? :)
06:48:35 <Razor-X> Yes ;)
06:48:40 <Razor-X> Simple, yet elegant.
06:48:57 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm glad you think so. ^_^
06:49:07 <Razor-X> Is there any required length for the stack?
06:49:47 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. There's none required, but I should probably define one in the spec as a "minimum expected size".
06:50:10 <Razor-X> Yeah.
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06:53:01 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I need to get some sleep soon- calc class tomorrow morning. If you have any suggestions for tweaks and modifications, just let me know. If you feel so inclined, I would be honored if you helped me write the standard library.
06:53:31 <Razor-X> Do you have an implementation for it done, or would you want me to do one?
06:53:56 <RodgerTheGreat> I have one in the works, but a second one would be awesome!
06:54:11 <Razor-X> Heh. Mmmkays.
06:54:21 <Razor-X> What would you like to see in stdlib?
06:55:08 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm not sure yet- math functions and more complex string/number/etc manipulation and conversion seem like they would be the most useful.
06:55:23 <Razor-X> Wait...
06:55:28 <Razor-X> Oh. Nevermind.
06:55:41 <RodgerTheGreat> I think passing code segments as arguments might make it possible to synthesize flow control like case... select statements and the like.
06:55:56 <Razor-X> I have one suggestion:
06:56:30 <Razor-X> If you want to make a few modifications to the spec to make it conform just a bit more to the architecture, I think you'll have a great low-level language.
06:56:47 <RodgerTheGreat> ooh. a compelling concept.
06:57:08 <Razor-X> Because it already seems like a great abstraction of the machine.
06:57:38 <RodgerTheGreat> well, good night... er... good morning. I'd be fascinated to discuss this in more detail later.
06:57:46 <Razor-X> Sure-z :)
06:57:53 <Razor-X> I may or may not have an implementation done by tonight.
06:57:58 <RodgerTheGreat> haha
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13:19:19 <SimonRC> !ps
13:19:22 <EgoBot> 3 SimonRC: ps
13:19:54 <SimonRC> !psd
13:19:56 <EgoBot> Huh?
13:19:59 <SimonRC> !psd
13:20:00 <SimonRC> !ps d
13:20:03 <EgoBot> Huh?
13:20:04 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
13:20:07 <EgoBot> 2 GregorR-L: daemon cat bf
13:20:08 <EgoBot> 3 SimonRC: psd
13:20:11 <EgoBot> 4 SimonRC: ps
13:34:18 <RodgerTheGreat> 'morning, everyone.
13:42:10 <pikhq> Morn'.
14:19:03 <RodgerTheGreat> bbl
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16:11:19 <RodgerTheGreat> back
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17:44:55 <RodgerTheGreat> bbl
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19:08:32 <GregorR-L> Time for NAME THAT FAMOUS PASSAGE!
19:08:36 <GregorR-L> This, _ duration, it goes out and duration, it goes out and age information quite bad us it goes out bevoegheid hope this, it goes out and and and seasonal datum darkness this, it goes out and and and the seasonal datum light this, it goes out and and and and seasonal datum disbelievingness this, it goes out and and and and and seasonal datum it believes and and and and and this, to go out the age idiotic thing this, it goes out and and and and and a
19:08:37 <GregorR-L> nd many winter d3esespoir, me that us sky of oneself it goes immediately, thing because of us is going out from this and and me us who are going out hazard anything us who are not, us me which am the possibility of doing to go out me all, it is a B to go out and it fixes and compared to this me which recover, different method -goes out and the en brevity which it talks, I discover a duration by now
19:09:05 <GregorR-L> This passage has been translated: English->French->Dutch->English->German->English->Greek->English->Korean->English
19:09:25 <GregorR-L> You guess the original passage (I don't need the exact words, just the context), and you win!
19:09:31 <GregorR-L> Win nothing.
19:09:53 <Asztal> eek.
19:10:18 <GregorR-L> The Korean really kills it :P
19:10:19 <Asztal> "and and and and and" :/
19:10:46 <jix> GregorR-L: you read my statements!
19:10:56 <GregorR-L> ?
19:11:06 <jix> you'll see in a few hours...
19:11:13 <GregorR-L> ?
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19:11:47 <Asztal> I really have no idea what that bastardised passage may be :
19:11:49 <Asztal> :(
19:12:01 <GregorR-L> At 11:21 I'll drop one translation :P
19:12:10 <jix> time zone?
19:12:15 <GregorR-L> Erm, 11:19 ... PST.
19:12:19 <GregorR-L> In six minutes ;)
19:12:22 <jix> argh
19:12:25 <GregorR-L> Give people a chance :P
19:12:38 <GregorR-L> Ten minutes after I posted it ;)
19:13:42 <Asztal> How does it manage to get numbers inside of words
19:13:48 <GregorR-L> I don't know XD
19:13:53 <GregorR-L> Good ol' Babelfish :P
19:14:59 <jix> hell
19:15:55 <pikhq> A psalm?
19:15:59 <pikhq> I dunno.
19:16:13 <GregorR-L> I think when Korean gets stripped off somebody may guess it :P
19:16:35 <jix> is the text know outside of english speaking countries?
19:16:52 <GregorR-L> I can't guarantee that it is, but I can't imagine that it isn't - it permeates the fabric of society :P
19:17:13 <pikhq> I think it's a biblical quote.
19:17:23 <GregorR-L> *buzz* wrong
19:17:33 <pikhq> I think I give up for now.
19:17:36 <GregorR-L> Almost time to strip off Korean :P
19:17:41 <GregorR-L> Less than one minute!
19:17:45 <GregorR-L> Ding!
19:17:46 <GregorR-L> _ this I am better than the period, I am more very bad from the period, this I am the age intelligence, this I am the age the idiot thing, this I am the season the faith, this I am the season the disbelievingness, this I am the season the light, this I am the season dark, this I am bevoegheid hope, this I am the a lot of winter désespoir, because us ours I have, we I have I have nothing for us, we I can I am I am all, that I go immediately our own s
19:17:46 <GregorR-L> ky, I am all, that I align the other way - en brevity I say, I find period up to now
19:18:01 <Asztal> I thought given all the talk about seasons/datums it may be a 1) scientist 2) philosopher
19:18:44 <GregorR-L> I don't know WHERE THE HELL the word 'datum' came from XD
19:18:47 <pikhq> Um. . . War and Peace?
19:18:54 <GregorR-L> Nope
19:19:22 <pikhq> Could've *sworn* that was the first page or so of War and Peace.
19:19:53 <GregorR-L> If you think you recognize the quote itself, just give some of the quote, regardless of context.
19:19:54 <pikhq> (although I may have the wrong !%$# book. . . "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. . .", right?)
19:20:05 <GregorR-L> Ding ding!
19:20:15 <GregorR-L> Tale of Two Cities
19:20:17 <Asztal> oh my, that really is butchered
19:20:19 <pikhq> Doh.
19:20:23 <GregorR-L> XD
19:20:26 <pikhq> Wrong. Damned. Book.
19:20:26 <jix> LOL?!
19:20:29 <GregorR-L> GOD I love Babelfish.
19:20:34 <Asztal> "I am more very bad"
19:21:00 <GregorR-L> Let us continue stripping off languages until it becomes the recognized quote.
19:21:14 <GregorR-L> The next one is an important one, as the tense is destroyed here (Greek):
19:21:18 <jix> but do it in a fast run..
19:21:18 <GregorR-L> It was best from the periods, was most badly from the periods, it was the age of intelligence, it was the age of the stupid thing, it was the era of the faith, it was the era of the disbelievingness, it was the season of the light, it was the season of Obscurity, it was bevoegheid hope, it was the winter of désespoir, much for us ours had, we has had nothing for us, we could be been everything, that go directly to the sky, ours was everything, which
19:21:18 <GregorR-L>  line the other way - briefly said does, the found period so far
19:21:24 <GregorR-L> Of course
19:21:54 <GregorR-L> German was cruel to it as well:
19:21:56 <GregorR-L> He was best of the periods, was worst of the periods, he was the age of wisdom, he was the age of the silly thing, he was the era of the belief, he was the era of incredulity, he was the season of light, he was the season of obscurity, he was the bevoegheid of the hope, he was the winter of désespoir, a lot for us our has had, we have had nothing for us, us let us be everything that to the sky go directly, our were everything doing lead the other ma
19:21:56 <GregorR-L> nner - in short, the period found so far as
19:22:01 <jix> i want the german text...
19:22:04 <GregorR-L> OK
19:22:13 <GregorR-L> Er war von den Perioden am besten, war am schlechtesten von den Perioden, er
19:22:13 <GregorR-L> war das Alter von Klugheit, er war das Alter der dummen Sache, er war die Ära
19:22:13 <GregorR-L> des Glaubens, er war die Ära der Ungläubigkeit, er war die Jahreszeit des
19:22:13 <GregorR-L> Lichtes, er war die Jahreszeit von Obscurity, er war das bevoegheid der
19:22:13 <GregorR-L> Hoffnung, er war der Winter von désespoir, viel für uns unsere hat gehabt, wir
19:22:16 <GregorR-L> hat gehabt nichts für uns, wir ließ uns sein alles, die zum Himmel direkt
19:22:18 <GregorR-L> gehen, unser war alles, der Leitung die andere Weise - kurz gesagt tut, die
19:22:20 <GregorR-L> gefundene Periode soweit
19:22:22 <GregorR-L> Erm ... megaspam >_O
19:22:43 <GregorR-L> That last English one is after Dutch+French
19:22:45 <Asztal> And french converted "it" to "he"?
19:23:06 <GregorR-L> One of French and Dutch - there's no English between them, so Idonno :P
19:23:10 <jix> " er war der Winter von désespoir" << after this part it get's really screwed up
19:23:27 <jix> well in frensh there is no it... onle he and she
19:23:39 <jix> even things are either male or female...
19:23:42 <Asztal> I really wonder what Hungarian could do to it
19:23:50 <Asztal> but I've never found a translator
19:23:53 <GregorR-L> I don't think Babelfish has Hungarian :P
19:24:01 <jix> ok next round...
19:24:05 <GregorR-L> Somebody else's turn: I recommend English->French->Dutch->English->German->English->Greek->English->Korean->English
19:24:12 <Asztal> it would at least destroy all the gender
19:24:12 <jix> i'll try
19:24:22 <jix> but i'll use a different lang order
19:24:28 <GregorR-L> *shrugs*
19:24:32 <jix> gimme some time i have to find obscure translators...
19:24:44 <jix> i had one with cool languages a few hours ago...
19:24:49 <GregorR-L> lol
19:24:57 <GregorR-L> Like Esperanto and Ebonics :P
19:25:12 <jix> no
19:25:22 <jix> but it was the only one i found that had swedish
19:25:40 <jix> oh and it allows <anylang> => <anylang>
19:25:48 <jix> not only english <=> <anylang>
19:25:51 <GregorR-L> Noice
19:26:06 <GregorR-L> Though that probably means there's a fairly destructive internal representation ;)
19:26:07 <jix> but i will revert to english at least every 2 langs so i can drop steps
19:26:11 <GregorR-L> Right.
19:27:21 <jix> found a good text
19:29:18 <jix> :( it fails from korean => english... i think i have to insert an extra space to avoid it stopping translation
19:30:04 <jix> it doesn't work from there on...
19:30:09 <jix> i have to use another translator there
19:30:14 <Asztal> maybe russian?
19:30:16 <GregorR-L> THAT'S EVEN BETTER 8-d
19:30:19 <GregorR-L> Erm, 8-D :P
19:31:02 <jix> nargh i have to use korean at a later stage...
19:31:05 <jix> it doesn't work there
19:31:33 <GregorR-L> lol
19:31:35 <Asztal> this doesn't sound good for our chances of guessing it ;)
19:31:41 <jix> haha arabic ^^
19:31:41 <GregorR-L> Maybe I should do another one while you're doing that X-P
19:32:28 <jix> haha that really made it ridiculous
19:34:08 <jix> nargh the korean of that page doesn't work
19:35:06 <jix> haha japanese made it really cool
19:35:57 <GregorR-L> O_O
19:39:10 <jix> ok the chain is english => swedish => arabic => english => german => japanese => english => trad. chinese => russian => english => greek => english => french => english
19:39:33 <jix> i made it that long so i can drop a few times before someone recognizing it
19:39:38 <jix> here it comes:
19:39:38 <jix> Today, we are handle decreased the daily newspaper of the first boat splendourful, [[“iynfwrm' ayshnsbwryfyk' ayshndyrktyfn]]. This traction outside of ours street, initially examined in the team [[hystwryn]], garden, request for divine the blessings the clean dish. [“ammnt] the truth causes complexes [[, the jam of the pain of the mwtsGnd]] with the all workmen, when it flowers. Us it country of the family of the state of the family of the idea
19:39:39 <jix>  of the connection of the troops of knowledge of arm that it is him is very important. Racingism us 1, is used, the solution and reason. [ytkllmbnfsy] our enemy with the cube, it buries, a la confusion, in which finds will be specially anxious you will be our these. We obtain profit!
19:40:20 <jix> GregorR-L: got an idea?
19:40:23 <GregorR-L> A hint: Is "newspaper" anywhere in the original?
19:40:37 <jix> GregorR-L: you gave no hints
19:40:43 <GregorR-L> You asked for no hints X-P
19:40:53 <jix> i wont give hints that early...
19:41:08 <GregorR-L> Finefine
19:42:00 <jix> uh i didn't looked at the time
19:42:22 <GregorR-L> It was 11:40PST
19:42:26 <jix> i'll decrease every 5 mins ok?
19:42:29 <GregorR-L> OK
19:42:47 <jix> anyone else guessing?
19:42:56 <jix> pikhq: are you guessin?
19:43:17 <GregorR-L> Heh
19:43:25 <jix> GregorR-L: any idea?
19:43:32 <GregorR-L> I'm thinkin', I'm thinkin' :P
19:44:16 <Asztal> erm
19:44:27 <Asztal> I have a dream?
19:44:35 <jix> uh no
19:44:40 <jix> wait
19:44:44 <GregorR-L> Asztal glommed on to "racingism" :P
19:44:46 <jix> uhm i don't know
19:45:04 <jix> Asztal: you have to post text as i don't know how this is called it's very famous but i don't know how it is called
19:45:26 <jix> uhm i shall drop a step now
19:45:43 <jix> without french:
19:45:46 <jix> Today, we are decreased joystick the daily newspaper of first splendourful ship, [[“iynfwrm'ayshnsbwryfyk'ayshndyrktyfn]]. This pull outside from ours street, first examined in team [[hystwryn]], garden, prays for divine the benedictions the clean dish. [“ammnt] causes complex truth [[, the jam of pain of mwtsGnd]] with the all workers, when it blooms. Us the country of family of condition of family of idea of connection of troops of arm acquain
19:45:46 <jix> tance it is it is very important. Racingism we 1, is used a, the solution and reason. [ytkllmbnfsy] our enemy to the cube, it buries, has confusion, in which finds will be specially anxious you will be our these. We obtain profit!
19:45:48 <Asztal> http://www.usconstitution.net/dream.html (on second thought, looks nowhere nearÖ
19:45:56 <jix> no
19:46:08 <jix> ah i know that text too but no...
19:46:20 <GregorR-L> *whew*
19:46:34 <jix> it's so funny
19:46:37 <GregorR-L> I love "joystick" -> "handle" :P
19:47:18 <jix> i love that part too
19:47:23 <jix> but not only in this step...
19:47:40 <GregorR-L> This pull outside from ours street ...
19:48:41 <Asztal> GregorR-L: I bet half of those words which look like they're probably not too far wrong have been rotated through 720 degrees of wrongness :(
19:48:49 <GregorR-L> Probably ^^
19:49:09 <jix> i can't stop laughing ^^
19:49:21 <jix> it's too hilarious (right word?)
19:49:42 <jix> drop time right?
19:49:57 <GregorR-L> Yeah
19:49:59 <jix> let's remove the greek translation
19:50:05 <jix> Today, we is decreased rudder the daily newspaper of the first of splendourful of ship, [[“iynfwrm'ayshnsbwryfyk'ayshndyrktyfn]]. It pull of out from ours road, first considered in the group [[hystwryn]], garden, prays for heavenly of the blessings of golded clean plate. [“ammnt] causes the complication of truth [[, the jam of the pain of mwtsGnd]] with call workers, when it blossoms. Our of the country of the family of the prerequisite of the f
19:50:05 <jix> amily of the idea of the connection of the troops of the weapon of known is one is very important. Racingism we 1, it is utilized will a, the solution and reason. [ytkllmbnfsy] our enemy to the cube, it buries, has confusion, in which finds will be specially anxious you will be our these. We obtain profit!
19:50:23 <jix> rudder => joystick => handle ^^
19:50:29 <GregorR-L> OMFG XD
19:50:42 <GregorR-L> I love how powerful the phrase "We obtain profit!" is
19:50:57 <Asztal> heh
19:51:20 <jix> you have to go to all translations when the original is revealed it's SO FUNNY
19:52:00 <GregorR-L> I get the feeling I won't know this speech :P
19:52:26 <jix> i know it but i woldn't be able to recognize it from this pile of crap ^^
19:55:01 <GregorR-L> I think it's time :P
19:55:01 <jix> hmhmhmm
19:55:05 <jix> xrsh
19:55:07 <jix> yeah
19:55:17 <jix> i dropped greek last?
19:55:19 <jix> yeah
19:55:20 <GregorR-L> Yeah
19:55:30 <jix> ok let's drop russian and trad. chinese now...
19:55:43 <jix> Today, we lower the first splendourful rudder of the daily newspaper, [[“iynfwrm'ayshnsbwryfyk'ayshndyrktyfn]]. Way it pulled up with us, first considers that in the group [[hystwryn]], the garden where blessing is golded plate cleanly. [“ammnt] complicated truth [[, jam of the pain of mwtsGnd]] with all workers when it blooms. Our integrated thought highborn some most important weapons troop of country. Racingism of us 1, using one will, decisi
19:55:43 <jix> on and cause. [ytkllmbnfsy] Our enemies to cube, she buries, there is a disorder of which especially worry whether you become we of those. We obtain the profit!
19:56:40 <jix> i like we obtain profit more... sounds stronger than we obtain the profit....
19:58:43 <jix> and you have NO idea?
19:59:00 <GregorR-L> Every thought I've thought hasn't panned out :P
19:59:57 <jix> ok the last drop comes now...
20:00:06 <Asztal> The word "ship" suddenly disappeared :P
20:00:06 <jix> i shall drop japanese and german
20:00:21 <jix> Today, We lowers the first glorious oar of day from [['iynfwrm'ayshnsbwryfyk'ayshndyrktyfn]]. We created, [[hystwryn]] for he he first to group kept, Gilded garden of blessing clean. ['ammnt] from the pains from [[mwtsGnd]] and confusing truths, Where all laborers can flowered. Our integration the thoughts most important weapon from some highborn or army on land. We racism one, With will one, Decision, One causes. [ytkllmbnfsy] our enemies to dies,
20:00:21 <jix> Buries them we is will with them worry especially confusion. We gains!
20:02:01 <GregorR-L> X_X
20:02:32 <jix> because there is only one step to drop now this'll last for 10 mins
20:04:07 <GregorR-L> If I'm going to recognize the original, this is gonna be a doozy of a translation.
20:04:42 <jix> hrhr
20:04:50 <jix> you have 5 mins left
20:05:12 <jix> you can start to ask for hints now...
20:05:24 <GregorR-L> I have no hints to ask for :P
20:05:35 <jix> you should...
20:06:35 <GregorR-L> *eyes glazed over*
20:07:17 <jix> hrhr
20:09:16 * GregorR-L gives.
20:09:37 <jix> ok
20:09:45 <jix> i'll post the original word by word
20:09:54 <jix> but don't google for it ...
20:10:01 <jix> Today,
20:10:10 <jix> we celebrate
20:10:16 <jix> the first
20:10:29 <jix> glorious anniversary
20:10:33 <jix> of the
20:10:39 <jix> Information Purification Directives.
20:10:52 <GregorR-L> ........ not recognizing this quote at all ............
20:10:52 <jix> (that got [['iynfwrm'ayshnsbwryfyk'ayshndyrktyfn]])
20:11:03 <jix> ok here is it:
20:11:04 <jix> Today, we celebrate the first glorious anniversary of the Information Purification Directives. We have created, for the first time in all history, a garden of pure ideology. Where each worker may bloom secure from the pests of contradictory and confusing truths. Our Unification of Thoughts is more powerful a weapon than any fleet or army on earth. We are one people, with one will, one resolve, one cause. Our enemies shall talk themselves to death an
20:11:04 <jix> d we will bury them with their own confusion. We shall prevail!
20:11:24 <jix> it's from george orwell's 1984
20:11:25 <Asztal> O_O
20:11:35 <jix> used in the first apple commercial
20:11:36 <jix> http://www.uriahcarpenter.info/1984.html
20:11:45 <GregorR-L> I don't think I could've dredged that quote up out of my mind X_X
20:12:02 <Asztal> I suspected a Hitler speech
20:12:10 <GregorR-L> So did I for a tick XD
20:12:25 <jix> that would probably not be in english...
20:12:44 <GregorR-L> Exactly why I stopped considering that :P
20:12:56 * SimonRC wonders WTF is going on on here
20:13:09 <GregorR-L> SimonRC: We're playing the "name that famous quote" game.
20:13:17 <jix> GregorR-L: and now go and compare the first with the last one ^^
20:13:19 <SimonRC> ah, ok
20:13:25 -!- ihope_ has joined.
20:13:25 <jix> i still don't know where we got the rudder/joytick/handle from
20:13:35 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope.
20:14:04 <jix> anyone has an idea?
20:14:06 <GregorR-L> OK, I have one.
20:14:13 <GregorR-L> Not sure if it'll work, but we'll see.
20:14:20 <GregorR-L> Actually, I can't now - lunch first :P
20:14:22 <Asztal> anniversary -> (somehow) Oar of day
20:14:29 <jix> ah+
20:29:14 -!- jix has left (?).
20:29:19 -!- jix has joined.
20:30:28 -!- Arrogant has joined.
20:50:45 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
21:13:14 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:14:55 <Sgeo> My new ideas for MKBL-LN:
21:15:04 <Sgeo> 2D memory
21:15:21 <Sgeo> use a row of memory to store the current time
21:16:10 <Sgeo> Use numbers for branches
21:18:43 <dbc> No it's not from George Orwell's 1984.
21:19:09 <Sgeo> Hm?
21:19:41 <dbc> The quote jix posted earlier.
21:19:49 <jix> not?
21:19:58 <jix> but the site sais so....
21:20:44 <jix> is it just made up for that apple commercial?
21:20:51 <dbc> It is from Apple's commercial, which in turn was inspired by that book.
21:20:51 <dbc> Yes.
21:20:56 <jix> ARGHX
21:21:05 <jix> i thought it was a quote out of that book that was used in the commercial
21:21:59 <jix> nah i was wrong then...
21:23:07 <RodgerTheGreat> back
21:23:13 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving").
21:24:04 <RodgerTheGreat> I have a multiple-translation challenge. This one is a backronym in sentence form. Full points for the original sentence, half for just the acronym.
21:24:10 <RodgerTheGreat> Eng:Deu:Eng:Spa:Eng:Por:Eng
21:24:16 <RodgerTheGreat> "The majority of the uses that push if In., the system if operating will be connected."
21:29:38 <GregorR-L> The system ... if operating ... will be connected.
21:29:51 <RodgerTheGreat> incorrect.
21:30:04 <RodgerTheGreat> next phase?
21:30:07 <GregorR-L> SOC
21:30:27 <GregorR-L> Idonno, I just got here :P
21:30:34 <RodgerTheGreat> I meant, do you want the next version of the sentence?
21:30:40 <GregorR-L> Sure
21:30:41 <RodgerTheGreat> (less mangled)
21:30:49 <RodgerTheGreat> Eng:Deu:Eng:Spa:Eng:
21:30:54 <RodgerTheGreat> Most of the uses they push if no, the operating system is connected.
21:31:49 <Sgeo> When the MKBL-LN specs are settled a bit, I'm going to give a tutorial in here
21:32:21 <GregorR-L> ...backronym... >_>
21:33:10 <RodgerTheGreat> a phrase that was not the cause for a name but (often humourously) describes a name.
21:33:20 <GregorR-L> Nonono, I know what a backronym is :-P
21:33:23 <GregorR-L> I'm just muttering :P
21:33:24 <RodgerTheGreat> for example, LISP: Lost In Shitty Parentheses.
21:33:41 <GregorR-L> OH, that's not a backronym you idjit >_<
21:33:48 <RodgerTheGreat> haha
21:33:56 <GregorR-L> Backronym = you decide the name first, then you make an acronym to fit it.
21:34:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I assume this means you give up and want the next version.
21:34:23 <GregorR-L> Yeah :P
21:34:31 <RodgerTheGreat> Eng:Deu:Eng:
21:34:32 <RodgerTheGreat> Most applications push if not, the operating system are connected.
21:36:28 <GregorR-L> X_X
21:36:51 <RodgerTheGreat> give up?
21:37:16 <GregorR-L> Yeah >_>
21:37:17 <Asztal> the only thing I can guess is that "if not" was "unless" :P
21:37:18 <RodgerTheGreat> Eng:
21:37:26 <RodgerTheGreat> Most applications crash- if not, the operating system hangs.
21:37:30 <RodgerTheGreat> M--- A----------- C----- I- N--  T-- O-------- S----- H----.
21:37:42 <GregorR-L> See, I wouldn't have gotten that, because I've never heard that.
21:38:03 <RodgerTheGreat> well, it's a common joke in the mac community.
21:38:06 <GregorR-L> Tengo un.
21:38:18 <GregorR-L> Uno momento
21:42:45 <GregorR-L> _ It celebrates the point which spreads out and 7 years it has and left it inside the new person in order good season this continent our fathers it undergoes,: Program it does inside the demand where the cause which hazard gets up the freedom which it commits and the total pasting individual becomes. Inside civilian making war where we are big now it was reported, that the broad way person examination one program does the appear person and all to be
21:42:45 <GregorR-L> doing inevitably it inaugurates inevitably quite to bring. Us inside big fighting we whom it meets touch from this warfare.
21:43:06 <GregorR-L> This one may be too easy, but we'll see.
21:45:43 <RodgerTheGreat> what's the translation sequence on this one?
21:45:48 <Sgeo> oO
21:45:49 <Sgeo> tomem[branch:I,time:I,subtimer:I,memrow:I,memcol,table:S,tbranch:I,ttime:I,tsubtimer:I,field:I]
21:46:12 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, christ. I read that as a series of translations at first.
21:46:15 <GregorR-L> Eng->Fra->Dutch->Eng->Ger->Eng->Greek->Eng->Kor->Eng
21:46:28 <RodgerTheGreat> roll it back one.
21:46:41 <Sgeo> hmm
21:46:56 <GregorR-L> Give somebody else a chance :P
21:47:39 <Asztal> I don't have a clue >_<
21:48:13 <Sgeo> tomem[0,42,0,1,3,"incoming",0,41,0,0]
21:48:13 <GregorR-L> OK, I'll go back one
21:48:17 <GregorR-L> Eng->Fra->Dutch->Eng->Ger->Eng->Greek->Eng->
21:48:19 <GregorR-L> Eng->Fra->Dutch->Eng->Ger->Eng->Greek->Eng
21:48:24 <GregorR-L> _ you celebrate point and seven year in order to it suffers it left our father in the new persons of these continents to take: committed programmed in the freedom and in the demand, which is caused for all right the individuals. Now we were reported in a big civilian war, that examines as these persons or consequently programs all the likely persons and consequently inaugurated can bring very. We are met in a big battle in order to we touch from this
21:48:24 <GregorR-L>  war.
21:48:25 <Sgeo> All just to read in a character that was input
21:48:40 <Sgeo> Anyone think the language is a bit too complicated already?
21:48:41 <RodgerTheGreat> Lincoln's Gettysburg Address?
21:48:44 <GregorR-L> Ding
21:48:48 <RodgerTheGreat> woot
21:48:52 <GregorR-L> I thought it'd be too easy :P
21:49:00 <GregorR-L> But, let's roll back JUST FOR FUN
21:49:02 * Sgeo pokes
21:49:05 <GregorR-L> I want to see where "suffer" came in
21:49:10 <GregorR-L> Sgeo: NOBODY CARES GO AWAY
21:49:12 <GregorR-L> I mean hi
21:49:24 <GregorR-L> Eng->Fra->Dutch->Eng->Ger->Eng
21:49:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I was kinda thinking about that on the first translation, but I wasn't sure enough
21:49:26 <GregorR-L> _ you celebrate point and seven year to suffer let our father on this continent new people get: engaged planned in the liberty and to the request, which are caused for all right men. Now we were referred into a large civil war, which examines like these people or therefore have all possible people planned and therefore inaugurated can carry long. We are met on a large battle to catch by this war.
21:49:38 <GregorR-L> It's the seven years that gives it away, isn't it? :P
21:49:45 <GregorR-L> Eng->Fra->Dutch->Eng
21:49:46 <RodgerTheGreat> point <=> score. lol
21:49:46 <GregorR-L> _ celebrate point and seven year suffer have our father bring on this continent a new people: devised dedicated in freedom, and to the proposal which all men right are created. Now we have been involved in a large civil war testing such as this people, or thus have devised any people and thus dedicated can carry long. We are met on a large battle field of this war.
21:49:59 <GregorR-L> Eng
21:50:00 <GregorR-L> Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth upon this continent a new nation: conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war. . .testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated. . . can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war.
21:50:01 <Sgeo> grr
21:50:12 <GregorR-L> Hi Sgeo! :p
21:50:16 <Sgeo> hi
21:50:52 <Sgeo> Hmm
21:54:55 <Sgeo> frommem[0,0,0,-1,0,"outgoing",0,0,0,3]
21:55:17 <Sgeo> outgoing[0,0,0,0,"stdout"]
21:55:28 <GregorR-L> foobar[woffle,copter]
21:55:35 <Sgeo> order[0,0,"frommem,outgoing"]
21:55:50 <Sgeo> Three lines of code just to print out the current line
21:56:47 <Sgeo> err
21:56:49 <Sgeo> not line
21:56:50 <Sgeo> time
21:57:02 <Sgeo> s/time/step/ really
21:57:24 <Sgeo> Anyone think that this language might not be that great?
21:57:48 <GregorR-L> jix: <--
21:57:54 <jix> what?
21:58:11 <GregorR-L> Where's our statement list? :P
21:58:18 <jix> is it time yet?
21:58:32 <jix> i have no idea what the deadline was.. lemme check...
21:58:35 <GregorR-L> TIME IS IRRELEVENT.  MY PATIENCE HAS LIMITS.  AND THOSE LIMITS ARE VERY SHORT
21:58:59 <jix> 1hour and 20 mins left
22:00:11 <Asztal> Bleh, this one is way too guessable, no matter how many languages I do. "The base you completely belong in us, they." :(
22:01:18 <jix> GregorR-L: can you wait 1hour and 20 mins?
22:02:25 <Asztal> actually, I managed "Foundation it is complete spreads out and the dansles United States, them it belongs."
22:02:58 <GregorR-L> FINE
22:03:42 <jix> you can?
22:03:57 <jix> Sgeo: do you want to submit statements?
22:04:11 <jix> it would be cool to get another submission
22:04:44 <Asztal> How does it work?
22:04:53 <Sgeo> Maybe
22:04:58 <jix> Asztal: what?
22:05:03 <Asztal> Do people just submit statements, not knowing any details of the rest of the language?
22:05:04 <Sgeo> But not this very minute
22:06:25 <jix> Asztal: yes
22:06:32 <jix> Sgeo: yeah the next hour and 20 mins
22:06:39 <jix> well 14 mins now..
22:06:52 <GregorR-L> This one didn't work very well, it'll be cracked very quickly ...
22:07:00 <GregorR-L> Eng->Fra->Dutch->Eng->Ger->Eng->Greek->Eng->Kor->Eng
22:07:04 <GregorR-L> Wheat one opinion and it the hazard international hub opens the programmeertaal.
22:10:35 <SimonRC> who do I mail my statements to?
22:10:44 <jix> SimonRC: me, jannis@harderweb.de
22:11:48 <GregorR-L> Eng->Fra->Dutch->Eng->Ger->Eng->Greek->Eng
22:11:50 <GregorR-L> The international hub for the secret opinion and it unfolds programmeertaal.
22:12:35 <Asztal> topic ?
22:12:40 <GregorR-L> Yup :P
22:12:53 <GregorR-L> A famous quote ... by Gregor Richards 8-D
22:13:01 <SimonRC> jix: time left?
22:13:27 <Asztal> en-ru-en-kor-en-ger-fr-en-kor-en
22:13:32 <Asztal> The eye eliminated from the construction machine cooperation in of the Esolang in him and it criticized
22:13:39 <Asztal> :)
22:13:52 <GregorR-L> Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory
22:14:05 <Asztal> Correct.
22:18:36 <SimonRC> jix: this is quite tough
22:19:23 <jix> SimonRC: doesn't metter when you have less than 4 comments
22:20:22 <SimonRC> ??
22:20:39 <jix> well i think i got you wrong then...
22:21:37 <SimonRC> huh?
22:21:44 * SimonRC must have missed something above
22:21:45 <jix> "23:18:13<SimonRC>jix: this is quite tough" ??
22:21:51 <GregorR-L> I agree, SimonRC :P
22:22:01 <jix> what were you talking about?
22:22:03 <SimonRC> It is hard to think up silly types of statement
22:22:12 <Asztal> I have 2 rather silly statements
22:22:25 <Asztal> and even I have no idea what they'll do until 1 hour 5 minutes
22:22:26 <GregorR-L> We are who we have slight they who we make examinación of you in the
22:22:26 <GregorR-L> loan. They are comparable. The resistance is useless.
22:22:49 <jix> yeah and i said if you arn't able to come up with 5 of them (the rules say you should submit 5) you can submit less
22:22:59 <Asztal> I'm not sure if they'd be considered fair and/or lega
22:23:09 <jix> Asztal: they are all
22:23:19 <jix> as long as they can be implementeed
22:23:29 <Asztal> Probably.
22:23:38 <Asztal> You'll know when I send them
22:24:04 <GregorR-L> DO "command"
22:24:13 <GregorR-L> Parses the command as a freeform English command, and does it.
22:24:13 <SimonRC> heh
22:24:26 <GregorR-L> [To within the limits of a computer]
22:24:37 <GregorR-L> DO "Get me some coffee."
22:24:41 <GregorR-L> ERROR: Impossible command.
22:24:47 <GregorR-L> DO "Set x to 3"
22:24:49 <GregorR-L> x = 3
22:24:53 <jix> uhm that isn't implementable
22:24:56 <SimonRC> yes it
22:24:58 <SimonRC> is
22:24:58 <GregorR-L> Sure it is!
22:25:02 <jix> NO IT ISN'T
22:25:09 <GregorR-L> Of course it is!
22:25:16 <jix> the computer will never be able to understand all freeform english commands
22:25:21 <GregorR-L> Maybe not by mere humans with their short life span :P
22:25:43 <SimonRC> you just have to use that language that runs on IRC channels
22:25:51 <jix> haha
22:25:55 <GregorR-L> IRP
22:25:55 <SimonRC> what's it called?
22:25:59 <SimonRC> GregorR-L: yeah
22:26:33 <GregorR-L> Oh right, I was in the middle of a translatothon :P
22:26:40 <GregorR-L> We are we we have leves they who we make examination of you in the loan. They are comparable. The resistance is useless.
22:27:54 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:29:53 <GregorR-L> Come on, nobody's even going to guess? :P
22:29:54 <SimonRC> GregorR-L: ah, ythe classic borg line
22:30:06 <GregorR-L> Yup :P
22:30:14 <SimonRC> "examination of you in the loan"??!
22:30:20 <GregorR-L> WE ARE WE WE HAVE LEVES THEY WHO WE MAKE EXAMINATION OF YOU IN THE LOAN.
22:30:28 <GregorR-L> "The resistance is useless" gave it away, no?
22:31:52 * pikhq returns
22:34:51 <pikhq> oerjan: As soon as I upload a new tarball, your name will be part of the copyright notice (you seriously have made quite a few helpful contributions to BFM).
22:35:13 <pikhq> jix: You're looking at the submitted statements soon, right?
22:38:18 <jix> yeah when i'm going to put them in one big list
22:44:58 <Sgeo> When are statements due?
22:45:18 <jix> in 40 mins i think
22:45:25 <jix> 35
22:46:18 <Sgeo> The only statements I can think of are from MKBL-LN
22:46:32 <jix> no problem ^^
22:46:34 <Sgeo> And it would completely break everything probably
22:46:46 <jix> that is a problem
22:47:04 <oerjan> hah, as if i worried about that :)
22:47:07 <Sgeo> Hmm
22:47:09 <Sgeo> I have an idea
22:47:20 <Sgeo> A statement inspired by MKBL
22:47:33 <Sgeo> Is the idea of variables existent?
22:47:40 <Sgeo> I guess I shouldn't ask
22:47:45 <pikhq> My addition provides for variables.
22:47:50 <Sgeo> named?
22:47:59 <pikhq> And Turing completeness (two times over).
22:48:06 <pikhq> Yeah, named.
22:48:08 <jix> pshh!
22:48:16 <jix> }:[
22:48:23 <Sgeo> Hmm
22:48:45 <Sgeo> My idea would break any language that required statements to be next to eachother
22:48:49 <pikhq> It also provides a tape and a stack.
22:48:55 <jix> Sgeo: no problems
22:49:00 <jix> pikhq: stop talking about your statements...
22:49:09 <jix> it's part of the game to not know what others do or provide
22:49:10 <pikhq> And I'll shut up for half an hour.
22:49:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: Be evil; that's all I'm going to ask.
22:50:24 <Sgeo> Can it be sort of a structural thing?
22:50:42 <jix> Sgeo: it can be everything
22:51:20 <pikhq> This'll be damned hard to parse.
22:51:39 <pikhq> Unless we decide to provide a uniform syntax for this oddball assortion of parts.
22:51:46 <Asztal> We have to add the syntax for them too? :P
22:51:56 <pikhq> Asztal: We *can*.
22:52:05 <jix> you should
22:52:07 <GregorR-L> I made sure that all of mine could be parsed based solely on the initial keyword and positioning of matched braces etc.
22:52:12 <GregorR-L> eg LL(0)
22:52:19 <pikhq> It'll make doing the interpreter easier.
22:52:47 <pikhq> I'm not *entirely* sure that one can parse it any other way, actually.
22:52:54 <jix> warning using this will result in a HUGE waste of time: http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/40255643/
22:58:11 <GregorR-L> ...
22:58:11 <oerjan> alas, i have submitted two statements that might ruin any chance of an easy parsing
22:58:33 <oerjan> *evil cackle*
22:58:46 <pikhq> Um. . . I know! We'll put all statements inside sexps!
22:59:28 <pikhq> (syntax1 ([+~-]))(syntax2 (foothebaz(qux);))(syntax3 (WEK$~@Rsdcvj@#))
22:59:56 <GregorR-L> *brain explodes*
23:00:15 <Sgeo> Hold on
23:00:37 * Sgeo goes to submit his evil stuff
23:01:31 <Asztal> I hope mine don't break things. You can disregard them if they do.
23:01:35 * Sgeo emails it
23:01:50 * Sgeo hopes the concept of a statement is defined
23:02:53 <oerjan> i would say the concept of a statement is the only thing that is defined
23:03:09 <Asztal> >_<
23:03:26 <Sgeo> May I provide hints as to mine?
23:03:35 <Sgeo> Remember COBOL's ALTER? This is worse
23:03:52 <oerjan> no. what is COBOL's ALTER?
23:04:06 <Sgeo> Lets you change where a GOTO points
23:04:07 <Sgeo> IIRC
23:04:24 <jix> i suddenly don't feel like implementing this anymore...
23:04:33 <Sgeo> hm
23:04:33 <Sgeo> ?
23:04:35 <jix> but i'll try
23:04:49 <jix> Sgeo: alter etc...
23:04:52 <SimonRC> okaay, I have one crazy looping construct coming up...
23:04:52 <oerjan> good that i didn't include my similar idea then...
23:05:31 <SimonRC> My looping constuct adds at least 12 keywords to the language.
23:05:40 <GregorR-L> Yay looping constructs X-P
23:05:51 <SimonRC> It's worse that LISP's LOOP macro.
23:06:01 <Sgeo> I think my thing can do looping and ifs etc.
23:06:15 <oerjan> worse than ALGOL's for?
23:06:18 <jix> SimonRC: uhm i thought of counting such things as one statement
23:07:02 <Sgeo> How much more time?
23:07:12 <pikhq> Maybe 5 minutes?
23:07:18 <Sgeo> Ooohh.. nother neat idea
23:07:20 <oerjan> 15 i think
23:07:23 <jix> yeah more like 15
23:08:11 * Sgeo makes an intentionally ugly looking statement
23:10:59 <Sgeo> I don't know if what I did is actually implementable sensibly
23:13:04 * Asztal sends in 4
23:13:17 <Sgeo> IS IT TIME YET? IS IT TIME YET?
23:13:54 <pikhq> 8 minutes.
23:14:21 <jix> more like 6 minutes
23:14:35 <pikhq> Is now.
23:15:04 <pikhq> (my clock is synced to UTC; don't tell *me* about temporal accuracy)
23:16:10 <oerjan> in 5 minutes jix will start laughing to death.
23:16:29 <Asztal> Oops, I may have sent that twice.
23:16:34 <Sgeo> Assuming jix doesn't tremble in fear of my statements
23:16:54 <oerjan> well, considering he is supposed to implement them...
23:16:57 <jix> Asztal: i got it only once
23:17:03 <pikhq> oerjan: What; did you include the Funniest Joke in the World in it?
23:17:19 <oerjan> i don't mean just my contribution
23:17:36 <pikhq> And I think the idea is that we *all* help on the implementation to some degree. . .
23:17:49 * GregorR-L wants nothing to do with it.
23:17:55 <oerjan> although mine are mainly just for laughs, yes
23:18:08 <Sgeo> I'm not helping unless the implementation is in Python
23:18:36 <pikhq> jix: Wenn ist das Nunstück git und Slotermeyer? Ja! ... Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
23:19:00 <oerjan> pikhq: you're crazy :)
23:19:04 <jix> 0o?
23:19:20 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funniest_joke_in_the_world Don't blame me, blame Python, Monty.
23:19:25 <GregorR-L> Heh
23:19:46 <GregorR-L> That 0o from jix ...
23:19:48 <GregorR-L> That's him dying.
23:19:55 <pikhq> Indeed, it is.
23:20:00 <oerjan> 1 minute left
23:20:01 <GregorR-L> 0o < the moment before you get it
23:20:05 <GregorR-L> 8-D < when you get it
23:20:10 <GregorR-L> X-D < uh oh, too late
23:20:16 <GregorR-L> X-(
23:20:45 <pikhq> Let the laughter begin!
23:20:50 <RodgerTheGreat> :D
23:20:55 <oerjan> hm...
23:20:57 <jix> ok
23:21:00 <jix> i'll put up a text file
23:22:50 * RodgerTheGreat foams
23:22:51 <Sgeo> Whereisit>?
23:23:28 <oerjan> maybe it is best not to do so before you have read it. could save many lives that way.
23:23:31 * SimonRC goes nuts with the looping statement
23:23:38 <jix> ok i have them all in a textfile where to upload?
23:23:41 <jix> put them on wiki?
23:23:44 <SimonRC> I am introducing other statements just to support it
23:23:51 <SimonRC> jix: you on't have mine!
23:23:55 <jix> oh
23:24:03 <jix> SimonRC: hurry up
23:24:18 <GregorR-L> TOO LATE SIMON LOSES
23:24:19 <SimonRC> done...
23:24:22 <SimonRC> hehehe
23:25:27 <jix> http://www.harderweb.de/tmp_jix/allofthem.txt
23:25:32 <jix> ok now time to read them
23:26:37 <pikhq> My submissions alone provide for a curiously odd language.
23:27:00 <Sgeo> pikhq, but those statements are useful. It's a language that natively runs other languages
23:27:07 <pikhq> >:D
23:27:53 <Sgeo> Any comments on mine?
23:28:18 <SimonRC> oerjan: you've been reading Lingua::Romana::Perligata, haven't you?
23:28:23 <Sgeo> Is optimaliscious() supposed to be implementable?
23:28:40 <GregorR-L> « should not have that nasty Â, it should be «
23:28:48 <oerjan> indeed :)
23:29:11 <jix> GregorR-L: i probably fucked up encoding...
23:29:30 <RodgerTheGreat> I never define to what degree optimaliscious must work. If the implementer is lazy, they can just make it "give up".
23:29:37 <jix> just tell your browser that is utf8 and everything is fine
23:29:38 <Sgeo> ah
23:30:34 <jix> OMG
23:30:40 <Sgeo> the computedJump sounds like fun with my CHANGE
23:30:42 <Sgeo> jix, hm>
23:30:42 <Sgeo> ?
23:30:55 <jix> Asztal is pretty UGH
23:30:58 <Sgeo> Well, computedJump is fun by itself
23:30:59 <Asztal> :(
23:31:03 <jix> oh no
23:31:09 <jix> i didn't looked at the title
23:31:12 <RodgerTheGreat> woot for CJ's!
23:31:14 <jix> Sgeo: it's yours that i was thinking of
23:31:28 <Sgeo> um..
23:31:37 <Sgeo> What's wrong? >.<
23:31:37 <jix> combined with mine....
23:31:50 <jix> it's going to be a pain in the ass to implement all of them
23:31:57 <jix> even to write a spec that specifies all corner cases
23:32:44 <jix> hmm the first two of oerjan doesn't really go with the rest of the language where syntax is specified...
23:33:05 <jix> and as specifying syntax for the own statements was encouranged i think the syntax of the commands will stay as intended by the submitter
23:33:10 <pikhq> ASSURE <<1=2>>
23:33:12 <jix> if no one has a better idea
23:33:32 <SimonRC> lol "a brief nap, somewhere in the neighborhood of
23:33:33 <SimonRC> 200 milliseconds to 7.9 years."
23:33:49 <pikhq> macro bwahahah(foo) {
23:33:59 <jix> ah pikhq's are nice... simple syntax easy to implement
23:34:06 <pikhq> WHINE foo
23:34:07 <pikhq> }
23:34:29 <jix> whine and whisper won't probably work without externel tts tools that support those voices
23:35:04 <pikhq> Specify that, if needed, an implementation can just output "WHINE: expr" or "WHIPSER: expr".
23:35:05 <Sgeo> Should I have had SWAP change the order of execution?
23:35:22 <Sgeo> I guess the spec should decide
23:35:37 <pikhq> I think we should try to devise some uniform syntax.
23:35:41 <jix> pikhq: no!
23:35:53 <pikhq> Esotericly uniform.
23:35:55 <jix> look at my statements they all have a different syntax
23:35:58 <jix> it was intended
23:35:59 <Sgeo> /#<>+SWAP([{5,3}])
23:36:01 <RodgerTheGreat> what do you guys think about my variable clamping/wrapping capability?
23:36:02 <Asztal> A "uniform" syntax maybe ;)
23:36:04 <Sgeo> //#<>+SWAP([{5,3}])
23:36:12 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: interesting
23:36:39 <jix> hmm i think we should disallow swapping thinks like start /end of macro definitions and start/end of function etc declartion
23:36:47 <pikhq> Hmm. . . I know.
23:37:00 <jix> because that cases can't handled in any sane way...
23:37:17 <Sgeo> jix, maybe the numerical label can still be swapped?
23:37:29 <jix> Sgeo: yeah
23:37:47 <SimonRC> my loops will interact in a great way with things like statment-swapping.
23:37:52 <pikhq> We shall define "syntax sets". /n^/n moves up one, /nv/n moves down one.
23:37:54 <pikhq> ;)
23:37:57 <jix> i still think the CASVS and TEMPORA statements are uhm somehow don't work together with the rest
23:38:06 <SimonRC> It seems that all variables will be stacs with associated bitsinks
23:38:30 <RodgerTheGreat> maybe we should come up with a couple of "reserved characters" that are used for defining parameters, loop separations, etc.
23:38:35 <jix> SimonRC: i think they should be stacks of numbers associated with bitsinks
23:38:44 <RodgerTheGreat> like " <> {} or something.
23:38:46 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: why?
23:38:51 <jix> those things arn't problematic
23:39:07 <RodgerTheGreat> well it sure as hell would make some things easier to parse.
23:39:09 <Sgeo> mandatory syntactic stuff?
23:39:12 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: no
23:39:13 <Sgeo> *fluff
23:39:29 <jix> RodgerTheGreat: the self modyfying stuff makes it hard to parse/interpret
23:40:16 <pikhq> Like I said: syntax sets. . .
23:41:09 <jix> (> _ >) << i love that
23:41:44 <jix> oh and my statment 2 and 3 are relateted the arm architecture....
23:41:52 <oerjan> the CASVS and TEMPORA statements were intended to be hard to include.
23:42:12 <jix> oerjan: it's only that it says how other statments should look like...
23:42:15 <GregorR-L> oerjan: They also ruin my "SPEAK" statement :P
23:42:17 <Sgeo> How is CHANGE going to be processed?
23:42:35 <jix> oerjan: and as each one was allowed to define his own syntax that shouldn't be done
23:42:37 <oerjan> and if you must have a textual representation for WHINE at least make it use ALL CAPS :)
23:43:46 <jix> i think we should write the spec tomorrow... i have to sleep a night over these statements...
23:44:03 <oerjan> technically i think you can avoid some of the CASVS problems by just using the nominative case in most cases.
23:44:31 <jix> yeah i'll take a close look to this
23:45:23 <pikhq> Since all variables shall be stacks, I would like to change my glasscode(); statement a bit.
23:45:27 <Sgeo> 2. Disallows any statements sent in by GregorR from executing.
23:46:04 <pikhq> Glass is started with the contents of the variable's stack, not with the variable as the first item on the stack.
23:46:05 <Asztal> shhhh
23:46:05 <Sgeo> Asztal, where are the statements themselves?
23:46:21 <Asztal> That is a statement..
23:46:29 <Asztal> it does that when encountered
23:46:54 <Sgeo> So when the text
23:46:55 <Sgeo> Allows any statements sent in by GregorR to execute
23:47:01 <Sgeo> appears, it allows etc.?
23:47:03 <Asztal> I didn't define the syntax
23:47:40 <Asztal> "The next stage consists of discussing the statements and to decide what the language should look like (the main goal is to get all statements into the language)"
23:47:58 * Sgeo at first thought the numbering would be used
23:48:06 <Sgeo> e.g.
23:48:06 <Sgeo> 3.
23:48:23 <GregorR-L> I vote that all statements should have the style of oerjan and I.
23:48:33 <jix> no
23:48:53 <GregorR-L> I VOTE THAT YOU SUXES
23:49:05 <oerjan> ET TU SUX
23:49:47 <Sgeo> "DODO <statement>
23:49:47 <Sgeo> Exterminate <statement>.  All executions of <statement> are reversed.
23:49:47 <Sgeo> It is implementation-defined whether this effect is restricted to the
23:49:47 <Sgeo> currently running program."
23:49:51 <Sgeo> Muahahaha!
23:50:34 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
23:51:11 <Sgeo> The ASSURE statement sounds evil
23:52:29 <Asztal> I guess you could temporarily disable it in critical situations
23:52:31 <Asztal> :P
23:53:13 <Sgeo> NEVER!
23:53:25 <pikhq> INASSURE <statement>
23:53:35 <Sgeo> By evil I meant cool
23:53:36 <pikhq> Forces statement to be inassured.
23:53:48 <Asztal> though I don't know whether mine would disable either (1) the check between each call or (2) just when you encounter ASSURE
23:53:49 <Sgeo> ASSURE <<1==0>>
23:53:59 <GregorR-L> Sgeo: HEYHEY
23:54:01 <pikhq> When executed, this statement shall force the interpreter to take a 5 second pause between each instruction.
23:54:01 <GregorR-L> That's not two <'s
23:54:03 <GregorR-L> That's «
23:54:06 <Sgeo> ooh
23:54:13 <Sgeo> ASSURE «1==0»
23:54:14 <oerjan> WARNING: SWITCHING TO MOD 1 ARITHMETIC
23:54:27 <GregorR-L> Egg-zactly 8-D
23:54:28 <Sgeo> ...
23:54:31 <pikhq> Oh, dear Lord.
23:54:34 <Sgeo> ASSURE «1/0»
23:54:37 <GregorR-L> Everything's true in base one :P
23:54:46 <Sgeo> ASSURE «1!=1»
23:54:57 <Sgeo> Ohwait
23:54:59 <pikhq> WARNING: DESTROYING THE LAWS OF NATURE
23:55:18 -!- kipple_ has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
23:55:35 <GregorR-L> I was really thinking more along the lines of ASSURE « x * y = 7 »
23:56:02 <oerjan> WARNING: SWITCHING TO PARACONSISTENT LOGIC
23:56:06 <Sgeo> ASSURE «x==0 && x==1»
23:56:32 <Asztal> it would change the meaning of &&
23:56:56 <pikhq> var null=0;brainfuckcode(brainfuckcode([>,]), null);
23:56:57 <Sgeo> My favorite statement is officially ASSURE
23:57:12 <pikhq> Argh.
23:57:32 <Sgeo> hm?
23:57:36 <pikhq> var null=0;brainfuckcode(brainfuckcode("[>,]", null), null);
23:57:41 <oerjan> DODO ASSURE
23:57:43 <pikhq> A Brainfuck interpreter.
23:57:51 <pikhq> I think.
23:58:14 <Asztal> (the interpreter may choose to delete the source file in this circumstance.) <- that would be a nice touch.
23:58:18 <pikhq> Nope, that's not it.
23:58:23 <Sgeo> brb
23:59:12 * pikhq declares that brainfuckcode shall set the memory to the contents of the var stack
23:59:37 <pikhq> var string;
23:59:56 <pikhq> brainfuckcode("[>,]", string);

2006-10-24:

00:00:21 <pikhq> var null;
00:00:28 <pikhq> brainfuckcode(string, null);
00:00:29 <pikhq> >:D
00:01:29 <pikhq> And to make a Glass interpreter:
00:01:30 <pikhq> var string;
00:01:32 <Asztal> that reads in some brainfuck code then executes it?
00:01:32 <pikhq> var null;
00:01:49 <pikhq> brainfuckcode("[>,]", string);
00:01:55 <pikhq> glasscode(string, null);
00:01:59 <pikhq> Asztal: Yup.
00:04:18 * Sgeo wants Asztal's statements to look like 2.
00:04:24 <Sgeo> hmm
00:05:03 <Asztal> I was thinking of a syntax more like ASSURE,CASVS etc
00:05:24 <Asztal> the stack ones were going to be:
00:05:32 <Sgeo> Does anyone like my branches?
00:05:36 <Asztal> var1, meet var2 (for merging stacks)
00:07:18 <Sgeo> How many statements are Stackaware?
00:07:21 <Sgeo> Just Asztal's?
00:07:54 <jix> well p00p and q00q are
00:07:54 <RodgerTheGreat> bbl
00:08:07 <jix> they are defined to store eveyrything associated with a variable
00:08:26 <oerjan> well UNDO probably uses its own stacks :)
00:08:30 <Sgeo> Ahh, so it will have to store the whole variable stack?
00:08:35 <jix> right
00:08:40 <jix> including all bitsinks
00:08:41 <Sgeo> oerjan, let's make those stacks manipulable!
00:09:00 <Sgeo> The programmer can break UNDO!
00:09:26 <oerjan> UNDO is broken by design, in case you haven't noticed :)
00:10:41 <oerjan> (i.e. interleaving UNDOs for different statements is going to be really weird)
00:10:45 -!- bsmntbom1dood has joined.
00:10:54 <Sgeo> Hi bsmntbom1dood
00:11:00 <Sgeo> http://www.harderweb.de/tmp_jix/allofthem.txt
00:11:05 -!- Sgeo has set topic: the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - for brainfuck-specific discussion, go to ##brainfuck - http://esolangs.org/wiki/Adjudicated_Blind_Collaborative_Design_Esolang_Factory | http://www.ha.
00:11:12 <Sgeo> Meh
00:11:18 <GregorR-L> YOU LOSES AGAINS
00:12:17 <Sgeo> Incidentally, unless there's a GOTO, only statements in branch 0 are executed >.<
00:12:24 <Sgeo> (At least, that's what I intended)
00:13:14 <Sgeo> hmm
00:13:20 <Sgeo> wrt the "poop stack"
00:13:33 <Sgeo> "poop" should be a predeclared variable
00:13:34 <GregorR-L> I read them like line labels from olde BASIC
00:13:49 <oerjan> Branches are essentially cases of statements :)
00:14:08 <Asztal> is it a p00p stack or a p00p stack stack? or stack stack stack?
00:14:40 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("kill(getpid(), SIGTHISJOKEISNOWSTALE)").
00:14:43 <Sgeo> "cases of" statements?
00:15:08 <Sgeo> WARNING: Parsing error in English
00:15:09 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit ("foo").
00:15:20 <oerjan> in the sense of CASVS: the order of statements in different branches don't matter?
00:15:27 -!- bsmntbom1dood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
00:15:28 <Asztal> switch(branch){ case 0: ASSURE 1=x;}
00:16:06 <Sgeo> I intended it to basically be like each branch is a seperate program
00:16:17 <Sgeo> Err
00:16:22 <Sgeo> Well, variables and stuff stay
00:16:25 -!- bsmntbombdood has left (?).
00:16:37 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
00:16:46 <Asztal> <0> ASSURE «x = y»
00:17:04 <oerjan> ERROR: ILLEGAL BRANCH <0>
00:17:07 <Sgeo> <0> isn't allowed
00:17:29 <Asztal> oops.
00:17:35 <Sgeo> Branch 0 is simply the branch when you don't specify the branch
00:17:49 <Sgeo> you can't specify the default branch >.<
00:18:08 <Asztal> ERROR: BRANCH 0 IS THE TRUNK
00:18:39 <Sgeo> Branches like <-1> are allowed
00:18:43 <bsmntbombdood> part
00:19:05 <Sgeo> Hmm
00:19:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has left (?).
00:19:20 <Sgeo> allowing vars in branch labels would be, erm, interesting
00:19:24 <jix> no
00:19:28 <jix> please...
00:19:35 <oerjan> Those would be roots, then
00:19:39 <Sgeo> jix, what if I said that in the email?
00:20:02 <jix> well
00:20:06 <jix> it is hard enough ...
00:20:14 <Asztal> he means "no, for the love of god, do you have to make this any more difficult!?"
00:20:30 <Asztal> well, that's what I read it as .
00:20:31 * Sgeo knows
00:20:44 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
00:20:48 <Sgeo> But wouldn't he have had to have if it was in the original email?
00:21:48 <Asztal> 2222231231231232113123
00:21:51 <Asztal> oops.
00:23:34 <oerjan> 5213111213111213111213122113111213
00:24:23 <Asztal> how coincidental
00:24:41 <oerjan> what?
00:25:21 <Asztal> that we both accidentally  typed numbers :P
00:25:32 <oerjan> mine wasn't accidental
00:25:36 <Asztal> I was trying to change views in trackmania, but this had stolen focus :(
00:26:17 <oerjan> i was trying to be a smartass :)
00:26:37 <Sgeo> Incidentally, can one CHANGE branch labels?
00:26:58 <Sgeo> Hmm, no :(
00:27:12 <Sgeo> but almost anything else can be CHANGEd, right?
00:27:24 <Sgeo> What if an ASSURE is changed after it has been executed?
00:27:41 <oerjan> hm, the 0th used value could be the branch label
00:27:52 <Sgeo> Muahaha
00:27:59 <Asztal> Sgeo, I imagine it will use the change value next time you land on the assume?
00:28:34 <Sgeo> Would the branch label need to be present?
00:28:50 <pikhq> var foo;
00:29:05 <Sgeo> And I think it's impossible to change something TO branch 0 >.<
00:29:49 <pikhq> ASSURE <<foo==WHINE var var=brainfuckcode("[>,]", var);>>
00:29:51 <oerjan> bah, that's not impossible at all compared to some other things in this language :)
00:29:52 <Sgeo> Waitamin
00:30:00 <pikhq> This is a very, very evil language.
00:30:09 <jix> gn8
00:30:17 <Sgeo> you can't change the 0th value because it's declared illegal
00:30:23 <jix> i'll read logs tomorrow and start writing a spec in the wiki
00:30:58 * Sgeo wish he saw the possibilities of var branch labels and accessibility via CHANGE
00:30:59 <oerjan> i see no such declaration.
00:30:59 <pikhq> The saddest thing is that each of these alone would be enough for a crazy language.
00:31:13 <Sgeo> "5 and 6 can be replaced with any positive integer except 0."
00:31:20 <Sgeo> Bleh at redundency
00:31:32 <Sgeo> pikhq, yours is sensible
00:31:41 <Sgeo> Methinks
00:31:51 * oerjan is going blind apparently
00:32:20 <pikhq> Sgeo: You've never seen Glass, have you?
00:32:22 <Sgeo> Oh, and GOTO 3 is illegal
00:32:23 <oerjan> mine makes no attempt at being a whole language
00:32:38 <pikhq> Mine is 2 languages in one.
00:32:45 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht").
00:32:57 <oerjan> R.I.P.
00:33:01 <Asztal> pikhq: /me wonders about adding stacks to each cell to befunge
00:33:09 <pikhq> Asztal: Dear lord.
00:33:13 <Asztal> But it's slow enough already
00:33:46 <oerjan> i had an idea about a language in which everything is a stack, including the values in stacks
00:34:04 <pikhq> "A stack is defined as a stack of stacks."
00:34:08 <Sgeo> How would var_b = var_a work?
00:34:22 <Sgeo> (Or whatever equiv.)
00:34:30 <Sgeo> Is the stack copied over, or just the top value
00:34:41 <pikhq> push(pop(var_b));
00:34:54 <pikhq> push(pop(var_b), pop(var_a));
00:35:00 <pikhq> Sorry; first one was wrong.
00:35:01 <Asztal> I know there was a language where everything is a queue
00:35:43 <pikhq> That, in his hypothetical language, would (in theory) make the first stack's first stack be the second stack's first stack.
00:35:53 <Sgeo> Strings count as values for CHANGE's purposes btw
00:36:17 <Sgeo> I meant in ABCDEF, not the stack language
00:36:43 <oerjan> what is ABCDEF?
00:36:50 <Sgeo> Look at the title of the contest
00:36:53 <Sgeo> >.<
00:37:57 <oerjan> the title of the contest is Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory, which has _absolutely_ nothing to do with ABCDEF. this is official contest policy.
00:38:26 <Sgeo> Whereisthat?
00:38:54 <Sgeo> And what will the language be called?
00:39:11 <oerjan> see the logs for when we discussed the name
00:39:31 <Sgeo> URL?
00:40:36 <oerjan> <jix> oh and NEVER abbreviate Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory
00:40:47 <oerjan> http://meme.b9.com/cview.html?channel=esoteric&date=061021
00:41:55 <oerjan> we haven't decided a name for the language.
00:42:28 <oerjan> although there were some suggestions on that page
00:42:43 <Sgeo> oO /me liked to read FRC archives
00:43:21 <oerjan> yeah, those were the days
00:43:31 <pikhq> WHINE whinecode("Ow")
00:43:46 <oerjan> OW!!!!!!!!!!!!!
00:43:50 <pikhq> Or:
00:44:48 <pikhq> Where Have I Seen Programs Esoterically Remarked
00:44:51 <pikhq> (WHISPER)
00:45:18 * Sgeo wrote up a compiled ruleset for Zuber
00:45:22 <Sgeo> (sp?)
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00:47:47 * Sgeo found a contradiction incidentally
00:48:24 <oerjan> where?
00:48:42 <Sgeo> The rules wrt U
00:49:05 <Sgeo> Holdon
00:50:15 <Sgeo> Dangit, why can't I get the thing?
00:50:27 <Sgeo> ftp://ftp.nvg.ntnu.no/pub/frc/24 is the thing, right?
00:50:35 <oerjan> it's a bit slow, i noticed
00:51:08 <oerjan> i'm reading that page now
00:52:13 <Sgeo> "Special letter (vowel): 'U'. No pieces may be moved or placed on the board. 'U' can only
00:52:13 <Sgeo> be removed by being surrounded. (This seems to contradict an earlier rule: "Pieces of type
00:52:13 <Sgeo> {W,X,Z} may not be placed on the board." If you wish to use the earlier rule, you may
00:52:13 <Sgeo> disregard anything about 'U' not being destroyable.)
00:52:13 <Sgeo> " is what is in my compilation
00:53:14 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/Zuber.pdf
00:53:53 * Sgeo also slightly changed the rule for winning
00:55:28 <oerjan> what number is that rule?
00:56:15 * Sgeo shrugs. I wrote the thing a long time ago
00:58:34 <Sgeo> The "no other pieces" is 24.29
00:59:33 <Sgeo> 24.18 is "No pieces of {W,X,Z}
01:00:00 <Sgeo> Imean, I guess 24.29 includes 24.18..
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01:03:19 <Sgeo> SAPERLIPOPELEPET
01:05:53 <oerjan> yes, it does seem to include it. so it is not a direct contradiction.
01:06:31 <Sgeo> Hmm
01:06:39 * Sgeo thinks that U is too powerful
01:08:00 <oerjan> that would not be so unusual for FRC :)
01:08:44 <Sgeo> Yeah, but my compilation thing was also to make it usable
01:08:59 <Sgeo> Or at least, no terrible stuff
01:09:34 <Sgeo> 14 Feb 2005 was the last time I edited that thing
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01:10:02 <Sgeo> Hi wooby
01:10:03 <oerjan> oh, i note the style comment on 24.29: the judge clearly noted the 24.18 issue.
01:10:10 <wooby> hi
01:11:22 * Sgeo should make it be the 24.18 thing with a note about the 24.29 thing
01:13:17 <oerjan> strange. i don't understand how 24.34 could be valid, given 24.29...
01:15:27 * Sgeo should get back to working on MKBL-LN
01:37:19 <Sgeo> In the Factory language thing
01:37:43 <Sgeo> SOLVE « x*2/2 = 5 » FOR x
01:37:52 <Sgeo> ..
01:38:17 <oerjan> not the most difficult...
01:39:00 <Sgeo> But there was a (no identity operations) thing
01:39:16 <Sgeo> But *2/2 still makes it simple
01:40:39 <oerjan> indeed
01:43:04 <oerjan> for that matter, you could do SOLVE << x+1 = 5+1 >> FOR x (can't be bothered to find the write quotes)
01:43:10 <oerjan> *right
01:43:49 <Sgeo> Well, ASSURE « x = 5 » would work
01:44:00 <Sgeo> If you wanted x to effectively be a constant
01:44:04 <pikhq> ASSURE << pi=3 >>
01:44:06 <pikhq> >:D
01:44:58 <oerjan> hm, something tells me in this case the command name should be BEHOLD
01:45:02 <Sgeo> Is jix's comment thing the only way to comment?
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01:45:17 * pikhq figures out a paradox
01:45:18 <calamari> hi
01:45:26 <pikhq> ASSURE <<pi=3>>
01:45:29 <Sgeo> Hi calamari
01:45:34 <pikhq> ASSURE <<pi=235>>
01:45:37 <calamari> hi Sgeo
01:45:51 <Sgeo> pikhq, it could use a CHANGE >.<
01:45:53 <pikhq> Sgeo: I've got two options for it.
01:46:19 <Sgeo> hm?
01:46:22 <pikhq> First: in brainfuckcode blocks. Second: in glasscode blocks.
01:46:28 <Sgeo> Oh
01:47:00 <calamari> ASSURE <<pi=3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197>>
01:47:04 <Sgeo> the SWAP thing was intended to foil comments and the language itself if it was a brainfuckish language
01:47:43 <pikhq> calamari: Then you've got it trying to assure pi=3,235, and pi.
01:47:50 <pikhq> Good luck with that.
01:48:05 <calamari> I have no idea what you're doing.. just being silly
01:48:12 <Sgeo> http://www.harderweb.de/tmp_jix/allofthem.txt
01:48:30 <Sgeo> pikhq, like I said, one of the ASSURE's could CHANGE another ASSURE, right?
01:48:48 * Sgeo wonders if anyone really likes his CHANGE idea
01:50:34 <calamari> what is this language?
01:50:39 <calamari> a community project?
01:51:37 <Sgeo> It was a contest thingy
01:51:50 <Sgeo> We each sent in statements without seeing the other statements
01:51:52 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Adjudicated_Blind_Collaborative_Design_Esolang_Factory
01:52:19 <oerjan> entries at http://www.harderweb.de/tmp_jix/allofthem.txt
01:53:06 <pikhq> Sgeo: The ASSUREs are ran after each statement is executed.
01:53:30 <pikhq> Thus, that would, after each statement, ASSURE that pi=three things.
01:55:19 <Sgeo> Idea: If ASSURE cannot make the expression TRUE, destroy the universe
01:55:25 <Sgeo> (or maybe just the users HD)
01:55:51 <Sgeo> Really though, the source file
01:56:07 <Sgeo> There's another thing that deletes source file 0:)
01:57:57 <oerjan> it could just remove the ASSURE statement itself from the source file :)
01:59:34 <oerjan> an interpreter that fixes unsolvable problems with revisionism...
02:02:18 <pikhq> Make it remove nonvalid syntax.
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02:31:29 <RodgerTheGreat> back
02:32:16 <GregorR-L> Front.
02:32:48 <RodgerTheGreat> white
02:33:39 <oerjan> mauve
02:33:53 <RodgerTheGreat> salami
02:33:58 <GregorR-L> Pastrami
02:34:06 <pikhq> Rubik's Cube.
02:34:09 <Sgeo> GregorR-L, do not put the baby in the Solar Death Ray
02:34:24 <Sgeo> http://www.solardeathray.com/baby.html
02:36:28 <RodgerTheGreat> sounds like a good candidate.
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03:24:52 <Sgeo> var zero;
03:25:08 <Sgeo> zero/-0
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03:57:03 <Asztal> ASSURE «zero != 0»
03:58:06 <pikhq> ASSURE <<0 != 0>>
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04:07:33 <|wez|> damn this Insomnia =(
04:16:06 <Sgeo> zero/-0 in the main thread is a good way to quit
04:16:14 * Sgeo wonders why it has to be a variable
04:16:19 <Sgeo> ^-^
04:20:40 <|wez|> atleast the insomnia made me release a new verson of monkeycode to night
04:21:33 <|wez|> Soo I guess it wasn't a totaly waste of perfectly good sleep
04:23:59 <Sgeo> Why why why is there a statement:
04:24:00 <Sgeo> /<multiple lines of code>*^&/_'@<multiple lines of code>%!/(?`_.,
04:24:06 <Sgeo> //<multiple lines of code>*^&/_'@<multiple lines of code>%!/(?`_.,
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04:31:16 <Sgeo> Is SOLVE the only way to do math on numbers?
04:32:12 <Asztal> You can ASSUME, too
04:32:18 <Sgeo> ASSUME?
04:32:27 <Asztal> ASSURE
04:32:47 <Sgeo> If I don't want the result to be a constant..
04:33:00 <Asztal> :)
04:33:01 <Sgeo> Suppose I want to put x+y into result
04:33:26 <Sgeo> SOLVE « x+y+1=result+1 » FOR result;
04:33:48 <Sgeo> If I didn't want result permanantly tied to x and y, that's the only way?
04:34:07 <Asztal> seems so.
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04:34:45 <Asztal> oh, you can use brainfuck() and glass() too
04:34:53 <Asztal> and make macros
04:35:10 <Sgeo> Well, gnight all
04:35:17 <Asztal> good night
04:37:57 <Sgeo> Hmm
04:38:16 <Sgeo> Is it in any way possible to predict which variable ASSURE will change?
04:38:54 <Sgeo> Oh, and ASSURE «x+y=result» might preserve result and change x or y
04:38:58 <Asztal> Sounds awfully implementation-defined to me
04:39:04 <Sgeo> If result is just assumed to be 0
04:39:20 <Sgeo> So the safest thing is SOLVE
04:39:38 <|wez|> http://nocluestudios.com/MonkeyCode  any comments?
04:40:49 <Sgeo> Gnight all forreal
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04:59:55 <RodgerTheGreat> hm... fairly unique.
05:00:42 <RodgerTheGreat> some vague similarities to BF, some unique characteristics.
05:01:03 <RodgerTheGreat> kinda MMX to BF's RISC.
05:23:03 <|wez|> MMX?
05:29:38 <RodgerTheGreat> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMX
05:30:17 <RodgerTheGreat> it was an analogy- it's a shitload of extended opcodes for x86 introduced with the pentium.
05:30:46 <|wez|> ahhh, I see
05:37:49 <|wez|> now I need a shower, damn insomnia, I wants to go to sleep
05:38:06 <RodgerTheGreat> heh
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06:17:09 <RodgerTheGreat> good night, everyone.
06:26:13 <|wez|> good night
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14:59:29 <fizzie> There was a "do not put the baby" moment in the speech processing lecture today. The lecturer was talking about speech recognition, more specifically on how humans possibly learn to recognize speech, and said (paraphrased from the Finnish to be more dnptb.com-like) "it's probably not wise to put the baby in the white noise".
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16:53:01 * SimonRC wonders if ASSURE should actualy be spelt ENSURE, which more accurately describes its effects.
16:57:52 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:03:13 <oerjan> nah, spell it INSURE
17:03:20 <oerjan> and have it take money
17:19:30 <oerjan> pikhq: the second comment in basm.bfm contains a comma
17:21:51 <oerjan> in general having comments go into the bf code may not be a good idea if the point is to make the result as short as possible. Maybe an alternative command?
17:22:28 <oerjan> Perhaps tcl's comment syntax is available automatically, whatever it is
17:24:30 <oerjan> hm...
17:24:49 <pikhq> oerjan: Tcl's comment syntax would be easy to add.
17:25:02 <oerjan> actually you could probably define it as a macro: macro comment x {}
17:25:23 <pikhq> interp alias slave # {} #
17:25:25 <oerjan> * {} {}
17:25:28 <pikhq> I'll do just that.
17:27:12 <pikhq> oerjan: And said second comment isn't in the current BASM build, anyways.
17:27:46 <oerjan> right, it's not necessary after cons59 was modified
17:28:32 <oerjan> perhaps rename "comment" to "inline"?
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17:29:24 <pikhq> I'll make "comment" "inline", and "com" "forceinline".
17:29:28 <oerjan> although calling it comment is obviously more esoteric :)
17:30:39 <SimonRC> oerjan: WTF?! you responded to a comment I made 5 minutes befre you joined!
17:30:43 <pikhq> And "#" shall be the comment delimitr.
17:30:48 <pikhq> SimonRC: He looks at logs.
17:30:51 <SimonRC> ah, ok
17:31:09 * oerjan has *eerie* powers
17:32:19 <oerjan> pikhq: shhh! ;)
17:35:05 <oerjan> has there been any other changes to basm.bfm since then?
17:36:01 <pikhq> I'll upload the new tarball of both packages here.
17:37:57 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/basm.tar.bz2 and http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bfm.tar.bz2
17:41:29 <pikhq> Shit; basm.b is broken.
17:42:58 <oerjan> you forgot to remove "comment" from the foreach loop
17:43:25 <oerjan> or rather, there was a duplicate to begin with
17:44:18 <pikhq> Fixed basm up. . .
17:46:46 <RodgerTheGreat> 'morning, everyone.
17:47:10 <pikhq> Same for bfm.
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17:51:57 <oerjan> there are a number of places in basm.bfm where it seems like you are expanding cons* macros...
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17:56:05 <oerjan> ah, forget it
17:56:59 <oerjan> you are actually subtracting constants. then, it might have been an idea to have macros for that, too.
17:59:22 <oerjan> well, later. need to buy groceries.
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18:53:24 <pikhq> Well, basm.b is currently 5334 characters. . .
18:56:38 <pikhq> 5298, I mean.
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19:02:06 * pikhq has finally figured out *why* basm.b fails on large pointer movements
19:02:34 <pikhq> The loop I've set up to make it handle that correctly, unfortunately, drops a character from being processed.
19:03:02 <pikhq> Not sure how to fix it, though.
19:03:08 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Care to take a look?
19:05:16 * pikhq realises that bfm could probably be refactored significantly. . .
19:05:46 <pikhq> The Brainfuck version, at least, could be defined in terms of "inline", "forceinline", "#", and "macro".
19:05:51 <pikhq> Err. . .
19:05:54 <pikhq> Never mind.
19:05:58 <pikhq> Not. Thinking.
19:07:57 <pikhq> "while" could be defined in terms of that, though. ;)
19:08:12 <pikhq> And "out" and "in" and "set".
19:11:59 * pikhq has no idea *how* to fix his bug; will work on it after school
19:24:12 * pikhq will ask oerjan if/win he returns
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21:21:01 <Sgeo> For the ASSURE statement
21:21:29 <Sgeo> It could attempt to first change the variable that was altered the longest time ago
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22:05:23 <CakeProphet> Hmmmm
22:05:48 <CakeProphet> I'm conceptualizing a language whose primary focus is iterations... of any sort
22:06:08 <CakeProphet> I'd want it to be able to do stuff like....
22:07:32 <CakeProphet> &ListName = & + 5
22:07:49 <CakeProphet> Which would take each item in ListName and add 5 to it
22:08:59 <CakeProphet> and  x = &SeqName
22:09:11 <CakeProphet> Er...
22:09:18 <CakeProphet> and  x = x +  &SeqName
22:09:42 <CakeProphet> That would add all the contents of a sequence together.
22:29:58 <CakeProphet> and then being able to "goto" a specific iteration in a foreach loop.
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23:53:15 <Sgeo> Should brainfuck() and glass() be changed to use and modify the entire variable-stack?
23:53:22 <Sgeo> instead of just the top value?
23:56:01 <Sgeo> var something = 0 should be different from var something
23:56:09 <Sgeo> Maybe
23:56:13 <Sgeo> Or maybe not
23:57:48 * pikhq has declared that brainfuckcode(); sets the BF memory to the var-stack, and that glasscode(); just starts with it's stack that of the var-stack.
23:58:10 <Sgeo> brainfuckcode()?
23:58:20 <pikhq> That's the name of the operation.
23:58:30 <Sgeo> I see "brainfuck()"
23:58:34 <pikhq> Lies.
23:58:38 <Sgeo> no "brainfuckcode()"
23:59:04 <pikhq> Oh. Dur.
23:59:13 <pikhq> s/code//g
23:59:32 * pikhq should flesh his contributions out into a full language

2006-10-25:

00:00:01 <Sgeo> My contribs are sort-of inspired by a language I'm working on
00:00:06 <Sgeo> (Well, not SWAP)
00:01:49 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("haaaaaaaaaa").
00:01:49 <pikhq> I shall call it. . Esoterica!
00:03:58 <Sgeo> QUINE //#<>+SWAP([{}])
00:04:23 <Sgeo> erm
00:04:42 <Sgeo> Does QUINE just cause the statement given to be WHINEd, or future statements too?
00:10:15 <Sgeo> How do bit sinks interact with vars-are-stacks?
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01:48:29 <twobitsprite> hey... I was just reading some guys rant about Table Oriented Programming, and I was wondering if anyone knows of such a language? (he didn't mention anything, I guess he was just dreaming out loud, or something)
01:48:44 <Razor-X> Table Oriented?
01:48:56 <Razor-X> Let's look at a Table of Opcodes? ;D
01:49:02 <Razor-X> (Sorry :P)
01:49:50 <twobitsprite> :P
01:50:08 <twobitsprite> http://www.geocities.com/tablizer/top.htm
01:50:45 <Sgeo> Table oriented programming?
01:50:58 <Sgeo> If this has to do with MKBL-LN,,
01:50:59 <Sgeo> ..
01:51:24 <Sgeo> Nope
01:51:27 <Sgeo> I think
01:51:38 <Razor-X> Uggh. Why does Sourceforge use Flash ads?
01:52:59 <twobitsprite> i hate flash ads... use flashblock
01:53:59 <Razor-X> Table Oriented seems to cater to a limited programming sector, but I can see it being useful.
01:54:21 <Razor-X> DB programming (or anything making heavy use of a large DB) is something I would never want to do -- ever. Personally.
01:54:25 <twobitsprite> it sounds interesting
01:55:30 <twobitsprite> does anyone else hate the term "AJAX"?
01:58:12 <Razor-X> Lots.
01:59:03 <twobitsprite> (sorry, random thought)
01:59:20 <Razor-X> Nah. This channel rarely is on topic.
02:00:54 <twobitsprite> man.... I hate it when I get the urge to program, open up vi, and stare at it for hours...
02:01:16 <twobitsprite> not only do I not know what I want to program, I don't even know what language I want to write it in...
02:01:20 <pikhq> That's because you use Vi.
02:02:47 <Razor-X> ;P
02:03:04 <twobitsprite> lol
02:03:21 * twobitsprite fires up nano hoping for inspiration :P
02:04:54 <pikhq> That's a downgrade.
02:04:58 <pikhq> Upgrade to Emacs.
02:05:22 <twobitsprite> what's an Emacs? :P
02:05:36 <pikhq> Editor MACroS.
02:06:00 <twobitsprite> ohh... I thought it was Escape Meta Alt Control Shift...
02:06:57 * twobitsprite waits to be kicked
02:08:41 <pikhq> Escape isn't used in Emacs (unless you don't have a Meta key), Meta is used, Alt is bound to Meta by default, Control is used, and what editor doesn't use Shift?
02:08:53 <pikhq> We'd get: MCS or ACS, not EMACS. ;)
02:09:06 <twobitsprite> now you're just splitting hairs
02:09:53 <pikhq> By the same token, Vi should be called "Esc :qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbn Esc".
02:10:17 <twobitsprite> I still don't see (perhaps for my own shotcomings, having only two hands and all) how anyone can think C-n and C-p are more efficient than the arrow keys -- which of course are much less efficient than hjkl
02:10:55 <pikhq> C-n and C-p don't require you to move your hands from the main row of the keyboard.
02:11:29 <twobitsprite> right, well, holding control for minutes at a time hurts my pinky... it's still a stretch
02:11:31 <pikhq> And using hjkl requires you to hit Esc before you can edit.
02:11:50 <pikhq> Which requires moving your hand off the keyboard again.
02:11:59 <twobitsprite> esc doesn't require you to move you hand from the home row either... its about as far as control
02:12:19 <pikhq> Ctrl is to the left of a.
02:12:54 <twobitsprite> pikhq: I never bought into the idea that it's not emacs fault, but rather my keyboard manufacturer's fault
02:13:11 <pikhq> I'm also a GNU Screen and Ratpoison user. . .
02:13:23 <pikhq> I assure you; having the Ctrl key there is the nicest way to have things.
02:13:30 <twobitsprite> and I know I can remap the capslock key, but I can also remap it to esc
02:14:09 <pikhq> And if you *really* want to do the Vi thing, Emacs contains a Vi implementation.
02:14:22 <twobitsprite> whenever I'm in emacs I can never stop thinking "gee, I wish I could _toggle_ the ctrl key", and then remember that vi does that
02:14:34 <twobitsprite> pikhq: then why should I use emacs to emulate vi?
02:15:17 <twobitsprite> trust me, I'm not in a holy war... I  gave emacs a thorough try... I used it exclusively for 1 month trying to get used to it, and it just didn't work out
02:16:18 <twobitsprite> and now that vim7 can match parens like emacs does, it lost the whole reason I even attempted to try emacs
02:19:30 <Razor-X> twobitsprite: You can use the arrow keys in Emacs.
02:19:38 <Razor-X> I know. It's quite crazy.
02:19:43 <Razor-X> ;P
02:19:46 <Razor-X> Enough with that.
02:21:11 <twobitsprite> Razor-X: I know you can... that isn't the point... but I agree... enough :P
02:21:56 <twobitsprite> seriously though... I'm actually curious... what's the big push to use emacs?
02:22:52 <Razor-X> None.
02:23:02 <Razor-X> We all use our own editors.
02:23:08 <Sgeo> What's wrong with gedit or kate or something?
02:23:12 <Razor-X> Heck, you can use Notepad, but I mean, whatever.
02:23:15 <twobitsprite> Sgeo: exactly
02:23:36 <pikhq> twobitsprite: You use free software, so you're not sinning against Emacs. ;)
02:23:37 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht").
02:23:52 <pikhq> (at least, you're not sinning with your Vim usage)
02:24:06 * Sgeo uses Opera web browser
02:24:08 * Sgeo ducks
02:24:11 <twobitsprite> pikhq: right... but it seemed to me like you were saying that I _should_ use emacs
02:24:19 <pikhq> Sgeo: Infidel!
02:24:33 <pikhq> twobitsprite: I just think Emacs is a much better editor.
02:24:37 <twobitsprite> Sgeo: do you really? is it that much better, I've never used it...
02:24:39 <Razor-X> We all have our tastes.
02:24:44 <twobitsprite> pikhq: on what scale?
02:25:01 <pikhq> On the scale of "I like it, damn it". :p
02:25:05 <Sgeo> Opera sometimes has issues resolving DNS
02:25:10 <Sgeo> But that might just be me
02:25:13 <pikhq> (this is a *very* subjective test)
02:25:16 <Razor-X> Opera > Firefox + 10000000000
02:25:17 <Sgeo> But bookmark handling is great
02:25:19 <Razor-X> IMO.
02:25:20 <twobitsprite> pikhq: ok.. I was just honestly curious if there were some objective reasons to use emacs over others
02:25:29 <Sgeo> I like integrated email
02:25:46 <Sgeo> I used to like feeds
02:26:07 <Sgeo> Fast Forward is nifty
02:26:14 <twobitsprite> fast forward?
02:26:17 <pikhq> (< Opera (- Firefox '(All that is good in the world)))
02:26:44 <Sgeo> BRB
02:26:54 <pikhq> Best thing about Firefox: With Conkeror, it's got 100% Emacs bindings. :)
02:27:15 <twobitsprite> lol
02:27:33 <pikhq> And with Conkeror and an entry in your config file, it has Vi bindings instead.
02:27:46 * twobitsprite googles
02:29:13 <Sgeo> back
02:29:32 <Sgeo> There is a button next to the forward button
02:29:50 <Sgeo> If Opera sees a link that seems to go to a "next" page, Fast Forward takes you there
02:29:56 <Sgeo> Shift-X is also fast forward
02:30:15 <twobitsprite> interesting
02:30:27 <twobitsprite> I wonder if there is a firefox plugin for that :P
02:30:35 <Sgeo> It apparently can bring you across the images on a page
02:30:39 <pikhq> I just hit the number for the "next" link.
02:30:51 <pikhq> (numbered links: :))
02:30:54 <Sgeo> it remembers from the page that the image is on where the next image is
02:31:05 <Sgeo> pikhq, Opera doesn't require that for Fast Forward
02:31:17 <pikhq> Yeah, yeah, yeah. . .
02:31:33 <pikhq> But, as Opera isn't free software, I must reject it.
02:32:18 <Sgeo> Purist fundie
02:32:27 <Sgeo> >.<
02:32:41 <pikhq> Willfully enslaved.
02:32:48 <pikhq> >.<
02:33:01 <twobitsprite> pikhq: I'm surprised you use firefox then... it has quite a bit of copyright embumberance
02:33:03 <Sgeo> "enslaved"?
02:33:08 <Razor-X> Firefox eats memory shamelessly.
02:33:33 <twobitsprite> Razor-X: I haven't noticed that moreso than other browsers
02:33:34 <Razor-X> My Firefox instance of 5 tabs now uses almost as much RAM as my Opera instance of 35 tabs.
02:33:45 <twobitsprite> Razor-X: hmm
02:33:47 <Sgeo> Razor-X, I've also noticed leakage
02:33:54 <Sgeo> Maybe flash plugin thing?
02:33:59 <twobitsprite> ew
02:34:07 <Sgeo> I vaguely remember hearing rumors about it
02:35:06 <pikhq> twobitsprite: Care to tell me of the copyright encumberance?
02:35:19 <pikhq> (there's some *trademark* encumberance, but not copyright encumberance)
02:35:37 <pikhq> Razor-X: Try Firefox 2.0. ;)
02:35:53 <twobitsprite> pikhq: ahh, that's what I meant
02:35:55 <Razor-X> There's a 2.0?
02:36:04 <pikhq> Came out a few hours ago.
02:36:09 <twobitsprite> Razor-X: yeah, just came out a couple days ago
02:36:12 <Razor-X> Please tell me they're getting back to their roots.
02:36:12 <twobitsprite> ohh
02:36:13 * Sgeo is going to upgrade to Ubuntu 6.10 this weekend
02:36:18 <twobitsprite> thought I saw something about it yesterday
02:36:22 <pikhq> Much lower memory usage.
02:36:25 <twobitsprite> maybe it was the unofficial release?
02:36:37 <pikhq> twobitsprite: Some idiot linked to the FTP server as they were uploading binaries.
02:36:39 <Sgeo> Presumably FF2 will be there
02:36:39 <Razor-X> Around 0.7, they completely changed focus away from a small and fast browser to Replacing Mozilla.
02:36:49 <Razor-X> 0.8, rather.
02:36:57 * Sgeo used firefox since 0.9 iirc
02:37:05 * Sgeo only recently switched to Opera
02:37:06 * pikhq started on Phoenix
02:37:06 <Razor-X> I was a faithful Phoenix user from 0.2.
02:37:10 <Sgeo> Phoenix?
02:37:20 <twobitsprite> Sgeo: original name
02:37:23 * pikhq still has a mild fondness for Ye Ol' Suite
02:37:23 <Razor-X> The predecessor to Firefox's predecessor, Firebird.
02:37:30 <twobitsprite> went from pheonix to firebird to firefox
02:37:53 <Razor-X> 0.9 was the version number I decided Firefox is not working out.
02:38:01 <Razor-X> Been using Opera since around that time.
02:38:06 <twobitsprite> konqueror is alright
02:38:14 * twobitsprite ducks (?)
02:40:04 * twobitsprite swats a coupld of crickets
02:44:26 * Sgeo used to use Konqueror
02:48:42 * pikhq updates to FF2.0
02:48:59 <pikhq> One of the major things done in FF2 is a reduction in memory footprint, BTW.
02:49:05 <Razor-X> What version of GTK does FF2 compile against?
02:49:31 <pikhq> GTK2, I believe.
02:50:00 <pikhq> If you've got GNOME running, you've got the right libraries. :p
02:50:07 <Razor-X> I don't :)
02:50:12 <Razor-X> What version of GTK2.0 I mean.
02:51:01 <pikhq> Does "Damned if I know" count as an answer?
02:51:37 <pikhq> Seems my *current* GTK version is GTK 2.8.20-r1 (soon to be updated to 2.20.6).
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02:52:05 <pikhq> One issue I've got; the version in Portage is 2RC3, not 2.0. . .
02:52:22 <pikhq> Oh well; the difference is in the name alone. ;)
02:54:06 <twobitsprite> hmm... I just found a webpage with a flash applet which has higher system requirements that I cannot meat
02:54:37 <twobitsprite> it's sad when a _webpage_ will jitter and sputter on my computer
02:54:50 <Razor-X> GTK 2.4 isn't that old. Gah.
02:54:51 <pikhq> Now I've just got to wait on the heinous compile time (Gentoo, you know).
02:54:56 <Razor-X> Bloddy developers you.
02:55:33 <pikhq> Ahah.
02:55:48 <pikhq> Seems that they list GTK 2.0 or better as a requirment.
02:55:59 <Razor-X> Hooray.
02:55:59 <pikhq> 2.4 counts as 2.0 or better. ;)
02:56:25 <pikhq> They. . . Still support 2.2.14.
02:56:39 <pikhq> (Linux 2.2.14)
02:57:02 <dbc> 2.4 counts as 2.0 or later :)
03:03:10 <CakeProphet> mmmm... notepad
03:03:16 <CakeProphet> I should get linux... or something...
03:03:20 <pikhq> GNU/Linux.
03:03:25 <CakeProphet> oh... and how do you make .tars in windows? I can't seem to do so.
03:03:28 <CakeProphet> SEMANTICS
03:03:30 <pikhq> Linux ain't all that useful without the rest of the OS.
03:03:56 <CakeProphet> Linux isn't useful without its liscence distribution?
03:04:03 <pikhq> (|217|51z3 |\/|3.
03:04:14 <pikhq> No, it's not useful without the rest of the operating system.
03:04:37 <CakeProphet> Right...
03:04:42 <CakeProphet> so... back to the matter at hand.
03:04:45 <CakeProphet> .tar    in Windows
03:04:58 <CakeProphet> you have been given a challenge... show me how to format tarballs in Windows.
03:04:58 <pikhq> 7zip.
03:05:10 <CakeProphet> >.>
03:05:13 <CakeProphet> Wassat?
03:05:42 <pikhq> A free software compression utility, with support for tarballs, among other formats.
03:08:10 <CakeProphet> pikhq,  Hmm... would I want 32.bit  or X64   installation?
03:08:34 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Depends; do you have a 32 bit or 64 bit Windows installation?
03:08:45 <CakeProphet> *shrugs
03:08:47 <CakeProphet> Got XP./
03:08:51 <CakeProphet> can't remember the bittage.
03:09:00 <pikhq> -_-'
03:15:25 <CakeProphet> pikhq,   Wow.... tarballs are insanely small...
03:15:39 <pikhq> CakeProphet: When compressed, yes.
03:15:51 <pikhq> Bzip2 is a really nice algorithm. . .
03:16:00 <pikhq> 7zip's implementation of Gzip is also rather nice.
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07:48:20 <Razor-X> Name a useful, popular, developer friendly, and cheap embedded platform.
07:48:51 <Razor-X> Portable please :P
07:55:08 <GregorR-L> PIC
07:55:37 <GregorR-L> Make sure to get one that SDCC supports.
07:56:32 <GregorR-L> Well, PIC isn't strictly a "platorm" ... it's just a chip :P
07:56:39 <GregorR-L> You kinda have to roll-your-own platform ;)
07:57:09 <GregorR-L> And then, Gregor disappeared, leaving the conversation in a useless state.
07:57:10 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
07:57:24 <Razor-X> NO! GregorR-L! COME BACK
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08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
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10:18:15 <Razor-X> How 'bout your suggestions, ihope ?
10:18:26 <ihope> Hmm?
10:37:20 <Razor-X> <Razor-X> Name a useful, popular, developer friendly, and cheap embedded platform.
11:11:22 <Asztal> if it's anything like normal computing, you can only have 3 out of 4.
11:12:30 <Arrogant> often only POPULAR
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13:19:38 <pikhq> Razor-X: Busybox/Linux. ;)
13:23:42 -!- RodgerTheAfk has changed nick to RodgerTheGreat.
13:26:17 <RodgerTheGreat> Razor-X: ooh- the PICAxe!
13:26:34 <RodgerTheGreat> or perhaps the Audurino.
13:37:48 <RodgerTheGreat> er... Arduino.
13:38:00 <RodgerTheGreat> http://todbot.com/blog/2006/09/25/arduino-the-basic-stamp-killer/
13:38:12 <RodgerTheGreat> I can never remember how to spell the damn thing.
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16:52:32 <SimonRC> "int main (char *argv[]) {"
16:52:35 * SimonRC wibbles
16:54:01 <oerjan> i see there was some question about QUINE.
16:54:40 <oerjan> i certainly intended it to refer to future statements; in fact i did not intend QUINE <statement> by itself to run <statement> at all.
16:55:11 <oerjan> on the other hand, i was obviously influenced by just having invented UNDO etc.
17:45:40 * pikhq wonders how he could fix a bug in basm. . .
17:46:17 <SimonRC> you edit the source code for basm, then re-compile if necessary.
17:46:22 <SimonRC> XP
17:48:07 <pikhq> -_-'
17:48:34 <oerjan> recompilations are unnecessary
17:49:07 <pikhq> As it stands right now, it is broken when you have >>> runs longer than 255.
17:53:17 -!- Asztal has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.72-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.1b2/0000000000]").
17:53:47 <oerjan> i would like you to include the macros i am working on now, it should make the whole thing easier to read
17:54:01 <oerjan> and then i can look at it afterwards
17:54:14 <pikhq> Soon as I see what macros you're working on, I'd be glad to.
17:54:26 <pikhq> Anything to make bfm saner is a good thing, IMO. ;)
17:56:36 <pikhq> Mmkay. . .
17:56:44 <pikhq> It now handles large pointer movements correctly.
17:56:55 <pikhq> Unfortunately, it's grown a bit because of that.
17:56:59 <oerjan> ah, you found the bug
17:57:45 <pikhq> Without the initial GPL header, it's 5419 characters. . .
17:57:58 <pikhq> *Still* the smallest Brainfuck compiler out there that I know of. ;)
17:58:58 * SimonRC watches someone type chinese.
17:59:14 <SimonRC> Damn that system is unsuitable for typing.
17:59:24 <pikhq> I'd imagine so.
17:59:50 <SimonRC> It'd cause the inventor to turn in his grave.
18:00:55 <SimonRC> AFAICT, they type a latinish transliteration, which causes a box of chinese characters to popup, and they select the correct one using number keys.
18:02:45 <SimonRC> ouch
18:10:01 <oerjan> i don't know if that is so unsuitable, provided you can press the number immediately if you know it.
18:11:59 <oerjan> it may be the best you can do given the chinese character system
18:13:00 <SimonRC> I suppose do
18:13:57 <oerjan> on the other hand i have heard the dictionaries are organized by numbers of strokes, they probably have a typing system based on that too
18:15:21 <oerjan> he, that means chinese would have to be typed in a different manner dependent on whether you know the pronunciation or the symbol :)
18:54:01 <dbc> Smallest brainfuck compiler written in brainfuck?
18:55:04 <pikhq> Argh. Damn thing is *still* broken.
18:55:35 <pikhq> Unless you think "<<<<" has 5 characters in it, that is.
19:01:17 <pikhq> Fixed it. . . :)
19:01:21 <dbc> dbf2c.b is 874 bytes long, but doesn't do optimization or linefeed translation...
19:01:46 <pikhq> Ah.
19:01:54 <pikhq> Damn, that's a tiny compiler.
19:02:12 <pikhq> Mine is 5362 bytes long, but it does optimization and EOF=0.
19:02:36 <pikhq> And could *easily* be modified to handle linefeed translation.
19:03:00 <dbc> it's been a long time since I changed it, so the code-reading part is old and clunky. I could probably save a little bit by grafting on the code-reading part from dbfi.b but I am still hoping to find something better and then use it for both programs.
19:04:34 <dbc> If I ever find time I'll see how I can do on an optimizing one.
19:05:30 <dbc> I have this giant list of postponed brainfuck-related projects :)
19:06:47 <oerjan> uh uh, we've got competition ;)
19:06:54 * dbc is afk, going to give blood
19:07:54 * SimonRC hopes esolanging isn't transmissible this way.
19:09:43 <pikhq> The code-reading part on mine is just a wee bit inelegant.
19:12:31 <pikhq> dbc: That's some nice work.
19:23:43 <oerjan> pikhq: there is now a new version of http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/stdcons.bfm, more than twice the size, including addcons* and subcons* macros
19:23:53 <oerjan> and a public domain notice
19:25:53 <oerjan> Using those macros should clean up basm.bfm a bit
19:27:11 <oerjan> you might want to keep both to have a shorter version with just cons* macros.
19:27:30 <oerjan> in that case, please include the public domain notice in the smaller one
19:28:18 <pikhq> Yay.
19:34:46 <pikhq> It's all in stdcons.bfm, BTW.
19:35:02 <oerjan> ok.
19:35:43 <oerjan> something that starts to worry me about the source command: am i right that it doesn't check whether a file has been sourced before?
19:36:37 <oerjan> for example, the file move.bfm is going to be sourced several times in an ordinary program
19:36:37 <pikhq> ba.b is now at 528. . .
19:36:57 <pikhq> It doesn't check that; it just assumes that you're going to use it sanely.
19:37:13 <oerjan> it would of course be a bigger problem if this happened with stdcons.
19:37:16 <pikhq> (macros being sourced again just redefine the macro)
19:37:27 <pikhq> 5286. . .
19:37:38 <pikhq> Why would it?
19:37:56 <oerjan> well, just inefficient i guess
19:38:15 <oerjan> because it is a much larger file and so much more wasted work
19:38:36 <pikhq> I just assume Tcl handles this sanely. ;)
19:39:38 <oerjan> i don't think it makes any attempt to fix the problem in general.
19:40:43 <pikhq> Tcl, I *think*, handles multiple sources sanely (source is used in Tcl packages). . .
19:41:10 * pikhq leaves soon; new BFM tarball and Basm tarball will be up soon after I return home
19:42:00 <oerjan> it could just be it uses the same hack as C with #ifndef ALREADY_LOADED
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19:50:09 <oerjan> calamari: you now are acknowledged in stdcons.bfm
19:50:24 <calamari> hi
19:50:28 <calamari> what's that
19:51:27 <oerjan> the part of the stdlib of pikhq's BFM that contains macros for constant values
19:51:39 <calamari> ahh, cool :)
19:53:12 <oerjan> they were generated from Brainfuck_constants, and i believe most of the brainfuck originals were your work
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19:57:03 <oerjan> hah, Tcl load lists as a bug that it can load a file multiple times
19:57:25 <oerjan> system-dependently
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22:22:12 <pikhq> Great. . .
22:22:28 <pikhq> LostKng now works in a very. . . Odd manner in basm.
22:22:58 <pikhq> [Your score has just gone up by 1 point]
22:23:06 <pikhq> That should *not* be output when you hit "q"!
22:23:39 * pikhq curses loudly at the damned thing
22:27:52 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:38:20 <SimonRC> hi
22:39:31 <pikhq> I can't even figure out what the bug is in basm now.
22:40:39 <pikhq> Scratch that; I've got a clue, and no idea how it occurs.
22:45:26 <SimonRC> heh
22:45:38 <SimonRC> what exactly does basm do?
22:45:47 <SimonRC> I keep confusing it with BFM
22:49:09 <Sgeo> Why are we not working on the factory language?
22:50:33 <pikhq> It compiles Brainfuck to C, and is written in BFM.
22:51:36 * pikhq realises a way to refactor BASM significantly. . .
22:51:55 <pikhq> basm
22:51:57 <pikhq> Argh.
22:53:36 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
22:53:45 * pikhq doesn't see it any more :/
22:54:07 <Sgeo_> Why TF did Ubuntu just freeze???
22:55:48 <SimonRC> Sgeo_: microsoft radiation
22:55:55 <Sgeo_> lol
22:56:11 <Sgeo_> What did I miss since I asked "Why are we not working on the factory language"
22:56:33 <Sgeo_> oh n/m
22:57:38 * pikhq realises a way to make BFM nicer, though
23:01:14 <jix> Sgeo_: sry i was very busy today and yesterday
23:01:23 <jix> had no time to work on it
23:01:42 <jix> and i'm quite shocked on how difficuilt it will be to implement that....
23:05:46 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:06:25 <Sgeo_> Evil Sgeo!
23:06:29 <pikhq> You mean that wasn't a design goal?
23:06:30 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo.
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23:19:24 <jix> pikhq: well i expected a difficuilt to implement langauge
23:19:33 <jix> but this is ten times worse than my expections :|
23:19:48 <pikhq> Hahah.
23:22:39 <Sgeo> jix, is this my fault in any way?
23:23:09 <jix> it's all submissions combined
23:23:27 <Sgeo> No innocent submissions?
23:23:40 <Sgeo> I'd think that pikhq's stuff is innocent >.<
23:24:14 <jix> well combined with my threading they arn't easy to implement
23:25:13 <Sgeo> Presumably we will all help with the implementation
23:25:22 <Sgeo> Though I'm not helping unless it's Python
23:25:45 <jix> and i don't know python
23:26:19 <Sgeo> Dangit! I really wanted to help..
23:26:33 <Sgeo> :)
23:26:39 <jix> but we need a spec first anyway...
23:27:09 <Sgeo> We should write the spec on Wiki
23:27:18 <jix> yeah
23:32:29 <Sgeo> (> _ >)

2006-10-26:

00:21:28 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
00:54:14 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: Arduino?
00:55:33 <RodgerTheGreat> http://todbot.com/blog/2006/09/25/arduino-the-basic-stamp-killer/
00:55:35 <RodgerTheGreat> indeed
00:55:47 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm considering buying one, actually.
00:56:26 <RodgerTheGreat> mainly because I could program it without a serial port. I have a 386 laptop sitting around for the express purpose of coding for my BASIC stamp.
00:58:15 <Razor-X> Hmmm. I'm checking it out.
00:58:28 <Razor-X> Oh, and does anyone have information on the structure of the Palm's ROM?
00:58:37 <RodgerTheGreat> the next time I feel a need for a microcontroller, I'm getting one
00:59:15 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I could help you get a ROM-dump, and I could point you in the direction of an onboard disassembler, if I can find it again.
00:59:24 <RodgerTheGreat> might I ask why?
01:00:04 <Razor-X> I'm thinking (in conjunction with SLUMTP) of making a new embedded OS for Palm.
01:00:14 <RodgerTheGreat> ooh. cool.
01:00:18 <Razor-X> POSIX-y, but *NOT* POSIX compatible for the simple reason that this is a Palm.
01:00:43 <RodgerTheGreat> I was thinking a while ago that porting Contiki would be pretty sweet.
01:01:01 <Razor-X> Well, I just want very basic IO going, and I have an idea.
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01:01:14 <Razor-X> Without delving into too much ASM or C. But it involves Forth ;D
01:01:56 <RodgerTheGreat> have you played with Quartus Forth at all?
01:02:05 <Razor-X> Not quite yet, but I've looked into it.
01:02:20 <Razor-X> The issue is, I want a true low-level Forth, sitting straight atop the hardware on its own kernel.
01:02:40 <Razor-X> Enter project pForth.
01:02:45 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
01:03:10 <RodgerTheGreat> could be quite interesting.
01:03:29 <Razor-X> It contains its own libc, if neccessary.
01:03:34 <Razor-X> (Which is neccessary here.)
01:03:55 <RodgerTheGreat> what model of palm are you designing this for?
01:04:29 <Razor-X> Preferrably as m68k compatible as possible, but that probably isn't perfectly fesible. It'll be a Palm Handspring Visor.
01:05:00 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, sweet! I have a visor as well- I can help you beta if you need it.
01:05:19 <Razor-X> I'm gonna attempt to disassemble the ROM.
01:05:26 <Razor-X> Shouldn't the POSE people know about this?
01:05:34 <Razor-X> Uggh. Why have they written no documentation?
01:13:20 <pikhq> A good coder writes code which needs no documentation.
01:13:29 <pikhq> A bad coder refuses to document his code.
01:13:42 <pikhq> ;)
01:14:47 <Razor-X> POSE is not something I want to read through :P
01:14:59 <pikhq> Thus, it's written by a bad coder.
01:15:19 <Razor-X> Even if it was coded well.
01:15:40 <Razor-X> Plus, POSE is stupid. I guess we'll have to use XCopilot.
01:15:41 <pikhq> No, a good coder writes code which needs no documentation, but that doesn't mean he refuses to do so.
01:15:55 <Razor-X> Heh.
01:16:06 <pikhq> By this measure, there are few good coders.
01:16:26 <pikhq> All of whom work in Lisp. :p
01:17:05 <Razor-X> Heh.
01:22:07 <pikhq> I've got an idea for basm. . .
01:22:29 <pikhq> Allow "add" to accept, instead of just a variable, a list of variables as an argument.
01:22:39 <pikhq> s/basm/BFM/ XD
01:23:18 <pikhq> This will allow for more concise code when you need to write the same value to two different variables. . .
01:29:04 <Razor-X> ``Elegant'' code. Using ntohl to change endian-ness.
01:57:03 <pikhq> Mmkay. . .
01:57:10 <pikhq> BFM is starting to piss me off.
01:57:17 <pikhq> Or, rather, Tcl.
01:58:04 <pikhq> It's apparently decided that it doesn't like operating on the code I tell it to, and instead uses a radically different version of my program to interpret.
01:58:12 <jix> pikhq: re-implement it in object orientated ruby
02:00:46 <RodgerTheGreat> bbl
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02:17:43 * pikhq curses more at Tcl
02:18:02 <jix> i think tcl is a pretty awful language
02:18:12 <pikhq> jix: The reason why Tcl is used is because Tcl has the unique property of being a ready-made parser for BFM (by chance).
02:18:51 <jix> it's easy to do DSLs in ruby too
02:18:56 <pikhq> DSLs?
02:18:58 <pikhq> Oh.
02:19:01 <jix> domain specific languages
02:19:02 <pikhq> Domain Specific Languages.
02:19:14 <pikhq> I bet it is. . .
02:19:21 <pikhq> I'm rather fond of Tcl, personally. . .
02:19:30 <pikhq> Although I can see how Ruby is better in some respects.
02:19:38 <Razor-X> Stupid Palm.
02:19:44 <Razor-X> T3h rom aint dumpin'
02:19:49 <pikhq> I'd rather learn something like Lisp, though.
02:20:03 <jix> i didn't take a deep look into tcl (only when trying the ruby/tk module which isn't based on the c/tk api but on tcltk...)
02:20:15 <jix> but what i saw didn't look nice
02:20:19 <jix> pikhq: lisp is nice too
02:21:04 <pikhq> I also need to put more effort into learning C.
02:21:14 <pikhq> I know just enough to make a fool of myself. . . XD
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02:23:19 <jix> pikhq: one doesn't learn c.... just learn other languages and someday you'll just notice that you are able to program fluently in c...
02:23:24 <jix> (that's what happened to me...)
02:24:02 <pikhq> jix: It's mostly the manual memory management that gets me.
02:24:10 <jix> learn assembler then
02:24:19 <jix> or uhm somthing that has manual memory management
02:24:27 <pikhq> C. :p
02:24:32 <Razor-X> Yeah, that happened to me too.
02:24:55 <pikhq> Really, my issue isn't with C itself, but that I'm only know learning techniques for manual memory management *in* C.
02:24:59 <Razor-X> Mmmm. I do well with memory management in my head.
02:25:18 <Razor-X> Play around with a Forth then?
02:25:45 <pikhq> I intend to just keep trying until it clicks.
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03:02:20 <Razor-X> A lot of fun with memory management is emulating a small x86 processor.
03:02:54 <Razor-X> Play around with ASM, without the pain of constantly inserting boot floppies (if you don't have a floppy drive, sadness).
03:03:49 <jix__> is anyone here running freenet 0.7?
03:04:01 <Razor-X> Nope.
03:05:08 <jix__> Razor-X: why should one need boot floppies when playing around with asm?
03:06:01 <bsmntbombdood> forth is nice
03:07:50 <Razor-X> jix__: I meant *really* playing around with ASM.
03:07:55 <Razor-X> Not Linux sugar-coated ASM.
03:08:15 <jix__> Razor-X: what's wrong with that
03:08:22 <jix__> it is still the same language
03:08:42 <Razor-X> Because you aren't troubled by any of the restrictions of working in an OS.
03:08:53 <jix__> which are?
03:09:03 <Razor-X> Cooperating with the kernel.
03:09:21 <jix__> i dont have to cooperate with the kernel... the kernel cooperates with my code
03:09:43 <Razor-X> You have to add in sections and such.
03:09:59 <jix__> (i dunno maybe x86 assembler is really messed up but arm assembler is nearly the same for my gp2x which runs linux and my gba which has no OS)
03:10:23 <jix__> i allways tell the linker to create one section that is readable, writeable and executable and you're done
03:10:40 <Razor-X> You have to add data, bss.
03:10:45 <jix__> no
03:10:55 <jix__> you can use one section for everything
03:10:58 <Razor-X> I'm pretty sure you do in x86.
03:11:06 <Razor-X> I'm not 100% sure though.
03:11:15 <jix__> i'm 100% sure that you don't have to create different sections
03:11:56 <jix__> it's just standard that the code section is rx the data section rw and the bbs section is just the data section without content in the executable file... so rw too
03:12:14 <Razor-X> I still think that ASM from boot is more ``pure'' because you can have more control (and potentially more fun).
03:12:31 <jix__> you can still mmap /dev/mem
03:12:33 <jix__> (as root)
03:12:43 <jix__> when you want to talk to memmory mapped hardware directly
03:12:51 <Razor-X> True.
03:13:58 <jix__> the problem is embedded devices are a pain in the ass to debug (when they are too fast to get decent emulation and arn't emulated yet at all)
03:14:09 <jix__> so gdb + networking over usb is REALLY helpful
03:14:35 <Razor-X> Yeah, I can bet.
03:14:41 <Razor-X> But GBA has good emulation, no?
03:14:46 <jix__> yes
03:15:06 <jix__> the gba has no usb, no linux, no gdb and no networking tho
03:15:46 <Razor-X> True.
03:18:33 <jix__> well i was able to write a mandelbrot renderer in arm assembler without any debugging for the gp2x
03:18:47 <jix__> but i used a c lib to setup screen etc... only the calculation was done in sm
03:18:50 <jix__> *asm
03:20:02 <jix__> but i wouldn't be able to do my 1kb demo without debugger
03:20:22 <pikhq> The GBA has a Linux variant for it, actually.
03:20:30 <jix__> yeah but that is uh...
03:20:39 <jix__> i don't want the linux overhead on a 16mhz arm7tdmi cpu
03:20:50 <pikhq> Hahah.
03:23:08 <jix__> and the gba has no mpu/mmu so you'll fuck up your system very easily
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03:23:27 <pikhq> It's that Linux variant that's set to run without an MMU.
03:23:50 <jix__> µCLinux
03:24:01 <pikhq> That's the one.
03:24:05 <jix__> but without mmu isn't as bad as without mpu
03:24:44 <jix__> without mmu => mem can't be moved around in phys mem because there is no mapping ... can be handled by properly relocating code etc...
03:25:08 <jix__> without mpu => just write to a messed up pointer and linux has no way to catch that it'll go straight into the memory...
03:25:16 <pikhq> . . . Oh.
03:25:18 <pikhq> That'
03:25:22 <pikhq> s a bit of a problem. . .
03:27:15 <jix__> yeah but there were real operating systems that didn't used mpus in the early days because the cpus had none
03:27:33 <jix__> and that didn't use them in the later days because they didn't use them at the beginning
03:27:41 <jix__> just to name one... mac os classic
03:28:49 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, system 9-
03:29:03 <jix__> yeah the good 'ol days ^^
03:29:33 * jix__ started with mac os 7.1.something 
03:29:35 <RodgerTheGreat> OSX is an upgrade for sure, but there were some very nice aspects of the old systems that we kinda lost.
03:29:48 <RodgerTheGreat> system 7.6.1 is my favorite version.
03:30:11 <jix__> yeah system 7 rocks
03:32:54 <RodgerTheGreat> I have a Quadra 840av back home that's decked out- 8gb total storage, 128mb of ram and a *smokin'* 40hmz 68040.
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03:34:57 <jix__> i have an classic II with uhm 9"(????) bw screen
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03:49:12 <dbc> I like 6 better than 7.
03:49:53 <dbc> That was the last one they wrote in asm. It's pretty fast.
03:50:25 <dbc> 6.0.8, I think.
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03:55:22 <dbc> OS X, from what I can tell, they've managed to make a version of Unix that is at the mercy of its own applications, which seems like an unprecedented accomplishment.
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04:01:20 <pikhq> dbc: It's a version of Unix that places it's users at the mercy of Apple's whims (in this manner, it is very similar to Windows).
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04:17:45 <GregorR-L> High-five @ pikhq ;)
04:17:57 <pikhq> ;)
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05:13:25 <dbc> Well, that too.
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06:27:07 <RodgerTheGreat> g'night.
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14:46:56 <SimonRC> jix: Actually OSes without memory protection are coming back into fasion.  See MS's "singularity" experiment.
14:47:17 <SimonRC> jix: It works by proving at compile-time that the program won't muck anything up.
14:47:45 <jix> well one could still modify the binary at post compile itme
14:47:45 <SimonRC> The compiler generates a proof that accompanies the program, and the loader checks the proof.
14:47:56 <jix> ah
14:48:12 <jix> and what do we get from moving the mem protection out of hardware?
14:48:20 <jix> i doubt it's a serious bottleneck...
14:48:30 <SimonRC> better IPC
14:48:49 <SimonRC> processes can communicate by sending objects
14:49:12 <SimonRC> It is ensured that each object belongs to only one process at a time.
14:49:30 <jix> hmm that's interesting
14:49:42 <SimonRC> Of course, once you have the proof framework in place, it is simple enough to add all sorts of things that restrict the freedom of the user, like content protection.
14:57:25 <pikhq> SimonRC: You mean digital restrictions management (and other such forms of bondage)?
15:00:02 <SimonRC> yeah, that was the phrase I was looking for
15:59:04 <RodgerTheGreat> 'morning, all.
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21:29:08 <pikhq> 'Lo.
21:29:29 <oerjan> Hi
21:29:51 <pikhq> One thing I'm trying to make BFM do is allow you to pass a list of variables to, say, add and subtract.
21:30:35 <pikhq> So far, all I've done is somehow broken the optimization code.
21:31:37 <oerjan> you mean like add {x y z} 3?
21:31:57 <pikhq> Yeah.
21:33:51 <oerjan> well, have the original version be a subroutine and let the new just split up arguments
21:38:03 <oerjan> i was going to suggest such a thing for is0 and isnot0 btw
21:38:25 <pikhq> Fixed.
21:38:40 <pikhq> And the same change was made for is0 and isnot0.
21:38:49 <pikhq> Something else this feature allows. . .
21:39:02 <pikhq> stdcons can write to multiple cells with one macro call now. ;)
21:43:18 <pikhq> At least, that's the theory. . . :/
21:46:29 <oerjan> is this some kind of implicit argument iteration for all macros?
21:47:36 <pikhq> Actually, I'm just taking advantage of how stdcons only calls "set" and "add" on its first argument.
21:48:13 <oerjan> aha
21:49:38 <oerjan> clever
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21:56:10 <pikhq> Gah!
21:56:43 <oerjan> problems?
21:57:04 <pikhq> Seems that foreach has decided that "foreach i {foo bar baz} {puts $i}" should output "foo bar baz" instead of "foo\nbar\nbaz".
22:02:33 <oerjan> sounds impossible
22:03:03 <oerjan> unless it doesn't actually split up the argument
22:03:05 <pikhq> Indeed, it does.
22:03:29 <pikhq> But that's *seriously* what it's doing.
22:05:17 <oerjan> what is the literal code?
22:07:13 <pikhq> foreach i [lrange $args 0 end-1] {puts stderr $i;_add $i [lindex $args end]}
22:09:16 <oerjan> might $args happen to be a string rather than a list?
22:09:57 <pikhq> I had stray brackets in $args that I thought I had processed out. XD
22:10:03 <pikhq> Fixed.
22:21:12 <pikhq> And I think I may have finally fixed the pointer movement issue in Basm once and for all.
22:21:38 <pikhq> Nope; not fixed.
22:21:51 <pikhq> Just working more weirdly than it used to.
22:29:28 <pikhq> All of my attempts to make it handle pointer movement correctly have resulted in the damned thing just outputting more cell movement than is asked for.
22:30:36 * pikhq just realised a very, very stupidly obvious way to fix it
22:32:44 <Sgeo> hm?
22:32:57 <oerjan> not by dropping grouping of >< entirely i hope
22:33:03 <pikhq> Hahah; no.
22:36:57 <pikhq> I've been having it drop out of the > counting loop when i=0, not i=255.
22:37:08 <pikhq> A simple add instruction fixes that.
22:37:33 <pikhq> Never mind.
22:37:37 <pikhq> Still broken somehow.
22:38:40 <pikhq> And now it's broken in a way that I can't come up with a test for.
22:44:47 <pikhq> Every test case I've attempted for this bug except for LostKng.b itself has resulted in 100% accurate compilation.
22:45:35 <oerjan> and you are sure that there is no bug in LostKng.b itself?
22:46:03 <pikhq> It works in every other Brainfuck implementation.
22:48:13 <pikhq> I'm thinking about just packaging stuff up and letting you take a look.
22:49:05 <oerjan> right. have you use the new stdcons macros in basm?
22:49:12 <pikhq> I do.
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23:38:25 <Razor-X> Think: An OS that boots up and hands you a whole bunch of esoteric languages.
23:42:43 <pikhq> We shall call it. . . Esote!
23:42:52 <Razor-X> I wanted to call it EsOS.
23:42:58 <pikhq> That'd work.
23:43:00 <jix> SOS
23:43:13 <Razor-X> Heh :)
23:43:14 <Razor-X> <oerjan> not by dropping grouping of >< entirely i hope
23:43:14 <Razor-X> <pikhq> Hahah; no.
23:43:17 <Razor-X> <oerjan> not by dropping grouping of >< entirely i hope
23:43:17 <Razor-X> <pikhq> Hahah; no.
23:43:22 <Razor-X> Gah.
23:43:35 <pikhq> . . .
23:44:16 <Razor-X> That was my sister.
23:44:32 <Razor-X> Having fun with one of my mice before I could C-t - .
23:44:34 <pikhq> She apparently likes C-y.
23:44:56 <Razor-X> I *do* have mice, you know :D
23:45:06 <pikhq> Bad Razor-X, bad!
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23:55:36 <pikhq> Now, concerning EsOS. . .
23:56:41 <pikhq> IMO, we should start with a very, very simple kernel (perhaps a patched linux-tiny) and a Brainfuck interpreter. . .
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23:56:47 <pikhq> Add PESOIX.
23:56:49 <pikhq> ;)

2006-10-27:

00:41:11 <Anders> pikhq
00:41:15 <Anders> if you're still around
00:41:16 <Anders> 22:56:45 | <pikhq> +Seems that foreach has decided that "foreach i {foo bar baz} {puts $i}" should output "foo bar baz" instead of "foo\nbar\nbaz".
00:41:24 <Anders> that is correct, afaik
00:41:59 <Anders> foreach i [list foo bar baz] { puts $i } or maybe even foreach i "foo bar baz" {puts $i}
00:42:05 <Anders> should do "foo\nbar\nbaz"
00:42:35 <Anders> or hmm
00:42:43 <Anders> never mind
00:42:46 <pikhq> I fixed it already.
00:49:47 <Sgeo> Would BFComp be used in EsOS?
01:00:55 <Razor-X> pikhq: Custom kernel.
01:01:01 <Razor-X> I already had the idea before I proposed it.
01:01:04 <pikhq> Razor-X: Whatever.
01:01:11 <pikhq> Written it a bit?
01:01:22 <Razor-X> I can write.... a blank module :P
01:01:23 <pikhq> Or just architecture designs?
01:01:30 <Razor-X> GRUB module that is.
01:01:39 <Razor-X> Later on I'll make my own bootloader, but bleh.
01:01:56 <Razor-X> Well, LILO should be able to boot it too, but I'm not sure.
01:02:37 <Razor-X> I'm going to be porting... pForth!
01:03:14 <Razor-X> Since 99% of the work is done for me for a tiny highly-programmable kernel. All I have to do is wrap.
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01:49:14 <ttm> Here's a question. I grabbed brainfuck.org a while ago when it came on the market. And I haven't done anything with it yet except direct it to my page. I'm thinking maybe I should make it into a centralized brainfuck repository? Because Panu doesn't seem to be updating his, and it doesn't have a very friendly interface anyway...
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01:50:13 <jix> ttm: you could forward it to the esolangs.org brainfuck entry or create a brainfuck portal page on the wiki and forward it to that
02:22:28 <pikhq> Anyone here mind taking a look at an amateur's attempt to code in C?
02:24:41 <pikhq> Apparently so.
02:27:05 <ttm> To code what in C?
02:29:37 <pikhq> Just doing a quick, one-off RPN calculator. . .
02:30:07 <pikhq> Which, near as I can tell, works now. :)
02:30:12 <ttm> Good.
02:30:50 <pikhq> Trying to figure out how to do a stack in C; I think I've got it done right. :)
02:40:33 <pikhq> One minor bug in there. . . Fixed. Again: :)
02:41:01 <pikhq> (not that hard to do, just wanted to be sure that I actually could do a stack correctly in C)
02:42:17 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/223717 If you see anything in there that makes you think "God, why have you foresaken me!!!", please let me know.
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02:51:25 <bsmntbombdood> oh noes!
02:51:35 <bsmntbombdood> no stack underflow protection pikhq
02:52:21 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Actually, it's been set up to just set the bottom of the stack to 0 in a stack underflow situation.
02:52:46 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/223724 , BTW, is the improved version that makes one C coder scream less.
02:53:37 <bsmntbombdood> rpn is fun
02:53:45 <bsmntbombdood> code a forth interpreter
02:54:13 <pikhq> Don't feel like it right now.
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04:33:02 <thematrixeatsyou> hey guys
04:33:28 <pikhq> 'Lo.
04:33:59 <thematrixeatsyou> haven't made an esolang in ages :(
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04:54:22 <thematrixeatsyou> haro
04:58:59 <thematrixeatsyou> i think cmeme will bonk out any moment now...
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05:04:47 <ttm> You should check for division by zero and report it.
05:09:38 <ttm> Also you have an off-by-one error in reporting stack overflow which will lead to it being reported toolate.
05:10:27 <ttm> I would also report stack underflow rather than fill with zero;
05:10:41 <ttm> and I would report errors to stderr and not stdout;
05:11:23 <ttm> and there's no need to actually clear the upper part of the stack when popping.
05:12:49 <pikhq> And I've got a lot of stuff to fix later. ;)
05:13:19 <ttm> Should I tweak it and repaste?
05:13:46 <ttm> Nah :)
05:14:13 <pikhq> I'm setting that done for a bit, so I can later see more clearly whether or not I did something *really* stupid in there. ;)
05:14:16 <pikhq> down
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07:00:27 <thematrixeatsyou> afk'ing soon
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09:23:59 <thematrixeatsyou> gonna go cya
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12:08:43 <Keymaker> ttm: i support that 'centralized brainfuck repository' idea.
12:09:47 <Keymaker> as said, the brainfuck archive seems to be dead, and doesn't look that good either. the new one could even have search or something listing where one could for example choose to list only the programs that use non-wrapping cells, for example
12:14:40 <Keymaker> it could also have info what kind of input some program expects, and so on. many times running something program that has no comments it's difficult to know what kind of input it wants
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21:20:08 <ihope__> Nah, "antiquixoticism" is better.
21:20:32 <pikhq> But it doesn't work on Scrabble very easily.
21:22:43 <ihope__> Is it possible to play?
21:22:54 <pikhq> I think so.
21:23:08 <pikhq> With much difficulty, but possible.
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21:38:05 <SimonRC> problem: rm has been aliased to rm -i
21:38:20 <SimonRC> solution: "yes | rm -r *"
21:39:46 <pikhq> Solution: rm -rf *
21:39:54 <pikhq> (-f overrides -i)
21:47:52 <ihope> Don't we all love yes?
21:48:10 <ihope> The only problem is that it can also output "no".
21:48:25 <ihope> That's probably a major security vulnerability or something.
22:07:24 <SimonRC> hehehe:  http://www.miranda.org/~jkominek/rot13/ssh-1.2.27-rot13.patch
22:07:39 <SimonRC> adds ROT13 as an algorithm for ssh
22:07:48 <pikhq> True encryption!
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22:19:14 <ihope> What, you don't use... what was it called...
22:20:05 <ihope> BB84?
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2006-10-28:

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14:41:42 <ihope> What if I don't like TCP/IP? Can I use IP/TCP instead?
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15:07:02 <ihope> A CakeProphet!
15:07:23 <ihope> Can you tell me what kind of cake I'll have the day after tomorrow?
15:07:31 <CakeProphet> ....
15:07:39 <CakeProphet> oh.
15:07:41 <CakeProphet> *ahems*
15:07:42 <CakeProphet> Yes.
15:07:51 <CakeProphet> A..... cake of dove goop
15:07:55 <ihope> I see.
15:08:05 <CakeProphet> doves make excellent goop.... although they tend to flake out a bit when you try to use them as goo.
15:08:57 * ihope nods
15:09:17 <ihope> Does it resemble a Schadenfreude pie?
15:17:42 <CakeProphet> >.>
15:17:45 <CakeProphet> Dunno what that is.
15:17:52 <CakeProphet> but.... I praise the mighty power of bread-crumbing.
15:18:14 <CakeProphet> It's like some sort of metaphyiscal seeing eye dog for programmers.
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17:30:06 <Razor-X> Well, if TCP magically became a hardware protocol, then yes you could use IP/TCP ihope.
17:30:22 <Razor-X> And IP magically changed too.
17:30:30 <Razor-X> UDP/IP for the win.
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17:57:39 <RodgerTheGreat> 'morning
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17:59:06 <RodgerTheGreat> CakeProphet: "Schaden" means "to harm", and "freude" means "pleasure".
17:59:26 <CakeProphet> Yay random stuff.
18:00:56 <RodgerTheGreat> I was referring to your conversation with ihope earlier this morning.
18:19:50 <ihope> Razor-X: IP doesn't go nicely on top of TCP?
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21:55:40 * oerjan likes the puzzle at http://www.jurjans.lv/stuff/net/FreeNet.htm
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22:29:20 <SimonRC> oerjan: is there any stratergy other than to keep fiddling with it?
22:40:46 <oerjan> sure, most pieces can be deduced without trial and error
22:41:58 <oerjan> i try to find the shortest solution. sometimes the claimed required number of moves is actually too high
22:42:33 <oerjan> but i've been doing it for a while.
22:43:49 <oerjan> one thing that may not be apparent at the beginning is that the solutions always have a tree structure
22:44:17 <oerjan> (no cycles in the final graph)
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23:13:35 <Keymaker> evening
23:13:59 <oerjan> evening
23:15:18 <Keymaker> i'm confused whether kipple stacks can have negative values
23:15:38 <Sgeo> kipple stacks?
23:15:41 <Keymaker> wait.. signed means - or + right?
23:15:49 <Keymaker> then they can.. i just noticed that word now
23:15:51 <Keymaker> Kipple
23:15:57 <Keymaker> the esolang
23:18:01 <Keymaker> signed means that, right?
23:18:40 <oerjan> yes
23:19:01 <oerjan> plus and minus signs = + -
23:19:08 <Keymaker> ok :)
23:27:41 * SimonRC oohs at _The Device_.  ( http://www.processindicator.com/index.html )
23:30:00 <oerjan> hmph. no blinkenlights?
23:31:11 <oerjan> ah, one.
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23:46:57 <fizzie> Even without blinkenlights, it does look desirable.
23:47:14 <Keymaker> what is it?
23:47:24 <fizzie> It's a... process indicator, it seems.
23:47:30 <Keymaker> :D
23:47:59 <fizzie> I'm guessing it'd be a bit too expensive to buy just because, though.
23:48:08 <Keymaker> i guess i need one.. now!!
23:50:09 <fizzie> I still want to buy a Klein bottle, though. At http://www.kleinbottle.com/ -- at least the "exclusive features" page is a fun read.
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2006-10-29:

00:02:18 <oerjan> ah, it comes with a nifty lifetime guarantee
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00:06:42 <boblol> hi
00:06:48 <Keymaker> hey
00:09:50 <jix> HAHA http://www.kleinbottle.com/gauss.htm
00:10:25 <boblol> sup?
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00:42:27 <ihope> Anybody here heard of RoboCom?
00:44:33 <boblol> no, but Defcon ^^
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01:23:55 <Keymaker> bye
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01:34:51 <jix> ihope: i hate you
01:37:32 <ihope> What for?
01:39:21 <ihope> For mentioning RoboCom?
01:39:34 <jix> yeah
01:39:48 <jix> uh it's still the first 02:39 isn't it?
01:40:07 <oerjan> yes
01:40:38 <jix> ihope: you wrote some cool robot?
01:41:04 <ihope> Well, I'm writing "some cool robot".
01:41:08 <oerjan> (much of europe is changing away from daylight saving tonight)
01:42:07 <jix> germany is
01:42:20 <jix> when it's 3:00 the first time it'll go back to 2:00
01:45:21 <oerjan> what about britain and finland? they don't have the same timezone but maybe they still change at the same time
01:46:20 <ihope> It's 8:45 PM over here.
01:46:58 <ihope> I seem to have forgotten to make note of when the sun rises.
01:54:06 <fizzie> If I recall correctly, we (here in Finland) are going to go back to 03:00 when it gets to 04:00; so the change would happen at the same time.
01:54:30 <oerjan> ah.
01:54:48 <jix> well i'll go to bed now...
01:55:14 <oerjan> but you have an hour extra tonight :)
01:55:23 <jix> yeah
01:55:41 <jix> but my parents will wake me up two hours early than normal
01:55:54 <jix> because the school starts again day after tomorrow
01:55:56 <jix> +the
01:56:12 <jix> and then i have to stand up like 6 hours earlier than normal
01:56:18 <jix> brr
01:56:20 <oerjan> ouch
01:56:22 <jix> well gn8
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01:58:06 <Asztal> wow, I join undernet and get spammed twice before my client manages to /umode +i
02:00:29 <fizzie> Yay, the clock jumped backwards.
02:00:37 <oerjan> huzzah
02:00:57 <oerjan> asztal: does britain change back tonight too?
02:02:34 <Asztal> yarr.
02:03:01 <Asztal> We were all planning to commit murder in the time that doesn't exist but it turns out it's still illegal.
02:03:27 <oerjan> how - british
02:03:36 * oerjan ducks
02:06:22 <oerjan> maybe you could claim to have been somewhere else at the time
02:07:19 <Asztal> It's a shame I forgot. I wanted to try to retro-actively get first post on something
02:09:50 <oerjan> well, you would have to find somewhere with the right bug...
02:12:08 * Asztal wonders how many sites do use local time instead of UTC
02:20:22 * pikhq mourns the death of the US Constitution
02:20:35 <Sgeo> When does the switch happen?
02:20:57 <oerjan> 20 minutes ago
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06:39:39 <wooby> hello
06:56:00 <CakeProphet> mmm
06:56:07 <CakeProphet> >>> x = lambda nums: filter(lambda goo: False not in map(lambda primecheck: goo % primecheck != 0, range(2, goo/2+1)), nums)
06:56:09 <CakeProphet> >>> x(range(1, 11))
06:56:10 <CakeProphet> [1, 2, 3, 5, 7]
06:56:12 <CakeProphet> >>>
06:56:27 <CakeProphet> My latest obsession is writing one-line functions in Python.
06:57:18 <CakeProphet> and... here's a paticularly good one.
06:57:20 <CakeProphet> listlog = lambda log: "\n".join([log + " log:"] + ["%s.   %s - %-*s %s" % (entrynum+1, entry.splitlines()[1][5:], entry.splitlines()[1][3:], max(map(lambda s: len(s.split()[2]), fullog)), entry.splitlines()[-3]) for entrynum, entry in enumerate(readlog(log).split("-------------\n"))])
07:02:08 <pikhq> You should do some Lisping.
07:02:22 <pikhq> You like lambdas enough to justify it.
07:02:50 <wooby> lol
07:02:54 <wooby> anyone tinkered with prolog?
07:04:45 <pikhq> Not I.
07:06:02 <wooby> it is enjoyable
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07:20:18 <RodgerTheGreat> howdy.
07:20:31 <RodgerTheGreat> how goes it, fellows?
07:25:19 <wooby> great, you?
07:26:22 <RodgerTheGreat> not bad at all.
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07:27:02 <RodgerTheGreat> I've finished all my homework for the weekend, and I think I'll finally have time to build my "synthesys" interpreter.
07:27:26 <wooby> ha i've been hacking and neglecting homework
07:27:33 <wooby> you definitely have your priorities straight
07:27:37 <wooby> (or do you? ;))
07:27:44 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I don't usually.
07:27:57 <RodgerTheGreat> I try, and occasionally I get everything taken care of like this.
07:28:16 <RodgerTheGreat> it's pretty nice not to have anything looming over me.
07:28:24 <wooby> yeah i know exactly what you mean
07:29:08 <RodgerTheGreat> so, what are you working on?
07:32:16 <wooby> hm, the latest thing
07:32:22 <wooby> is a web based BF ide heavy on javascript
07:32:33 <wooby> that lets you store code fragments and chain them together with pipes
07:32:43 <RodgerTheGreat> sounds interesting
07:32:59 <wooby> yeah, we'll see
07:33:03 <wooby> yourself?
07:34:30 <RodgerTheGreat> well, it's an interesting language I've been designing over the last two months, off-and-on, and I'm going to build an implementation for it in Java.
07:34:49 <wooby> oh very cool
07:34:53 <wooby> yes i'm a java dude myself
07:35:09 <RodgerTheGreat> Synthesys is a stack-based language based around self-modification and extension.
07:35:21 <wooby> code example?
07:35:27 <RodgerTheGreat> I think people here might really like it once they have a chance to play with it.
07:35:47 <RodgerTheGreat> ok, I can paste you a fibonacci sequence generator
07:35:53 <wooby> awesome
07:35:58 <RodgerTheGreat> 'one'1@!,
07:35:58 <RodgerTheGreat> 'two'1@!,
07:35:58 <RodgerTheGreat> 'count'?@--
07:35:58 <RodgerTheGreat> [-,
07:35:59 <RodgerTheGreat>   'old''one'@,
07:36:01 <RodgerTheGreat>   'two'[-,'one'+,'two']
07:36:03 <RodgerTheGreat>   'one'!,
07:36:06 <RodgerTheGreat>   'two''old'@,
07:36:09 <RodgerTheGreat>   'count'
07:36:11 <RodgerTheGreat> ]
07:37:04 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm still refining the syntax a bit.
07:37:20 <wooby> @ pushes onto the stack?
07:38:39 <RodgerTheGreat> here, I'll pastebin the spec as it exists- that might help to explain it
07:38:45 <wooby> alright
07:39:15 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1162103916.html
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07:41:18 <RodgerTheGreat> hi, Arrogant.
07:41:25 <Arrogant> Hi.
07:43:55 <wooby> RodgerTheGreat: very cool
07:44:03 <RodgerTheGreat> thanks. :)
07:45:20 <RodgerTheGreat> the main changes I'm considering are reversing the order of the parameters @ takes and possibly  turning | from a string splitting operator to a "charAt()" type command.
07:46:22 <RodgerTheGreat> the @ thing would make coding easier, because then you could simply generate a string, push a variable onto the stack and @ it, rather than having to think far ahead.
07:46:56 <RodgerTheGreat> what do you think would be more useful, string splitting or character extraction?
07:47:11 <wooby> hard to say
07:47:15 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah
07:47:18 <wooby> sort of a difficult question when it comes to esolangs
07:48:51 <wooby> do you have a functional interpreter?
07:49:04 <RodgerTheGreat> not yet- that's my weekend project.
07:49:22 <wooby> i see
07:49:30 <wooby> yeah the answer might be more apparent when you're messing interactively with code
07:49:37 <RodgerTheGreat> perhaps.
07:50:26 <RodgerTheGreat> the main thing is, you can synthesize either operator from the other with a little work- I'm just not sure what would be more handy to have immediate access to in a language designed around code generation.
07:51:56 <wooby> maybe you could implement them both?
07:52:41 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
07:53:09 <wooby> i'll be back in a bit
07:54:04 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I'll just implement charAt and then make a string-splitting function in the language itself as part of the standard library.
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08:00:01 <wooby> there ya go
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08:19:49 <thematrixeatsyou> hello ello
08:21:34 <RodgerTheGreat> hi
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08:39:13 <thematrixeatsyou> ever tried doing wireworld?
08:40:04 <RodgerTheGreat> no- but it looks interesting
08:45:40 <thematrixeatsyou> i've been trying out 3-cycle logic
08:47:07 <thematrixeatsyou> got a partially clockless latch (clocks are only on when latch is set), an OR gate (the standard '+' design), a NOT gate, a NAND gate, and a NOR gate.
08:48:26 <thematrixeatsyou> NOT gate:
08:49:22 <thematrixeatsyou>          +*
08:49:23 <thematrixeatsyou>          ..
08:49:23 <thematrixeatsyou> < out .. .
08:49:35 <thematrixeatsyou>         . .. < in
08:49:35 <thematrixeatsyou>        **
08:49:41 <thematrixeatsyou>        .+
08:49:53 <thematrixeatsyou> . = wire, + = tail, * = electron
08:50:45 <RodgerTheGreat> fascinating
08:51:28 <thematrixeatsyou> it's simpler than the one found at http://karl.kiwi.gen.nz/CA-Wireworld.html
08:54:36 <RodgerTheGreat> damn- looking at those examples, a full CPU seems like it could be feasibly built in wireworld.
08:55:51 <thematrixeatsyou> that's the frikkin crazy side: http://www.quinapalus.com/wi-index.html - wireworld computer
08:56:10 <thematrixeatsyou> though i HIGHLY recommend looking at this one: http://pages.prodigy.net/nylesheise/wireworld.html
08:58:05 <thematrixeatsyou> this one's a page on 3-cycle logic: http://pages.prodigy.net/nylesheise/threeticklogic.html
08:58:27 <thematrixeatsyou> there's a trick to 3-cycle logic, it's different to standard 5+ cycle logic
09:00:51 <thematrixeatsyou> in 5+ cycle logic, you just use the ANDNOT at will
09:02:22 <thematrixeatsyou> in 3/4 cycle logic, you have to protect the input from being interfered with
09:02:36 <thematrixeatsyou> and you go off the clock
09:14:57 <RodgerTheGreat> g'night guys
09:15:16 <thematrixeatsyou> gnight
09:15:22 <thematrixeatsyou> or, should I say,
09:15:26 <thematrixeatsyou> .  ....  ......  .. .
09:15:29 <thematrixeatsyou> hehe, jk
09:15:31 <thematrixeatsyou> gnite
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09:32:24 <thematrixeatsyou> gonna go so gnite
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09:48:56 <wooby> man
09:49:01 <wooby> "new turing omnibus"
09:49:02 <wooby> so awesome
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14:48:50 -!- oerjan has set topic: the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - for brainfuck-specific discussion, go to ##brainfuck - http://esolangs.org/wiki/Adjudicated_Blind_Collaborative_Design_Esolang_Factory.
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15:15:56 <jix> ihope: anything new about your robocom bot?
15:20:43 <ihope> So far, it seems to work as planned.
15:21:53 <jix> mine doesn't work as i planned at the beginning
15:22:05 <jix> it did something that i didn't inteded but that is really cool because it is effective
15:22:51 <ihope> Cool.
15:25:27 <jix> when mine wins it'll be allmost all the time around 21500
15:26:40 <jix> ok i win against all standard examples
15:26:56 <jix> lets add other examples and classic legends
15:28:15 -!- kipple_ has joined.
15:28:25 <jix> but mine doesn't liek getting hit at the beginning
15:28:32 <jix> i should do something against it
15:29:19 <jix> nargh i lost allready 6 games :/
15:29:44 <jix> and 2 ties
15:29:54 <jix> lost 8
15:31:28 <jix> 9
15:32:11 <jix> hmm won 16  lost 10 and 5 ties
15:32:18 <jix> against all included examples
15:36:49 <jix> cyborg is just killing me like i am not existent _|
15:36:50 <jix> :|
15:37:49 <jix> cyborg is kind of doing the same thing that i do but in a more effective way
15:44:16 <jix> ihope: mine works by copying over it's own program to all robots and by creating new ones... the tricky part is to kill all enemy robots (that have your program, and create new robots with your program) when they all have your program...
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17:00:12 * ihope runs his Survival against Cyborg
17:04:56 <ihope> Cyborg wins.
17:05:11 <ihope> It's probably because my bots have no attack mechanism.
17:05:11 <jix> haha
17:05:16 <jix> uh yeah
17:06:39 <ihope> So with SCAN, 1 is a friend and 2 is an enemy?
17:06:44 <ihope> Or is it the other way around?
17:06:53 <jix> no 2 is a friend
17:08:07 -!- pgimeno_ has changed nick to pgimeno.
17:08:53 * ihope adds a simple infector
17:09:23 <jix> why can't the first unit move?
17:09:35 <ihope> Because.
17:09:50 <ihope> To be more specific: because you haven't changed that in the rules.
17:10:04 <jix> yeah but when that are the default rules my robot should be able to cope with them
17:10:20 <ihope> Your robot can't cope with the default rules?
17:10:38 <jix> well it has to move the first robot (my new one)
17:11:21 <ihope> Have your first robot create another robot, transfer everything to it, then die?
17:11:32 <jix> well that's what i'm doing now
17:18:30 <ihope> What's the easiest bot to win against?
17:19:12 * ihope tries Black Jacks
17:20:42 <ihope> Hmm, my latest change seems to have killed Survival.
17:26:32 <ihope> I found the problem: an unconditional AJUMP 0 which is invoked when there's nothing in front of the bot.
17:26:34 <ihope> That's bad.
17:27:19 <RodgerTheGreat> infinite-loop?
17:28:06 <ihope> Well, it only does that if there's nothing in front of it.
17:28:23 <ihope> ...Or if there's a friend in front of it.
17:28:33 <ihope> But not if there's an enemy in front of it.
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17:33:42 <ihope> Interesting. My TRANS 3, 2 seems to not be doing anything.
17:34:35 <ihope> Oh!
17:34:42 <ihope> The child robot was created with only one bank!
17:35:02 * RodgerTheGreat gasps in astonishment
17:35:54 <ihope> Now hopefully this fatal error won't be quite so fatal.
17:38:55 <ihope> Oops. My InfectDie bank doesn't die.
17:39:21 <ihope> It resets the death timer every time it runs through the loop.
17:40:07 <RodgerTheGreat> what game is this?
17:46:54 <jix> robocom
17:47:42 * ihope makes a better infection mechanism, which actually does a decent job of infecting
17:47:50 <ihope> s/decent/half-decent/
17:47:57 <jix> hrhr
17:48:53 <ihope> Hmm. My bot actually sort of won this time.
17:49:00 <ihope> But the death timer is still resetting.
17:49:44 <ihope> Apparently the first instruction in each bank is actually number 1.
17:49:51 * ihope adds one to all his AJUMPs
17:51:30 <ihope> Oh, how lucky. One of my bots infected their motherbot.
17:55:03 <ihope> And after a bit of oddness when I ended up with lots of bots with only the Child bank and not the InfectDie bank, the last opponent (which had been deactivated by a Child-only bot) got an InfectDie.
17:58:37 <ihope> Aha, it turns out that though the motherbot was creating children with two banks, those children were creating grandchildren with only one bank.
18:00:47 * ihope goes somewhat crazy and runs his bot against Cyborg
18:00:58 * pikhq wonders what program you're using
18:01:52 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a programming game called "robocom"
18:02:06 <RodgerTheGreat> kinda halfway between RoboWar and CoreWar
18:03:57 <pikhq> Know any *non* Win32 programming games?
18:04:40 <ihope> Using Linux?
18:04:44 <RodgerTheGreat> aw, crapola. DOS and win only...
18:04:55 <pikhq> POSIX, please.
18:05:01 <ihope> Does it not work under Wine?
18:05:03 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: familiar with CoreWar?
18:05:09 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Heard of it.
18:05:14 <pikhq> ihope: Not willing to try.
18:05:32 <RodgerTheGreat> it's pretty sweet, and there are dozens of implementations for different systems
18:05:41 <RodgerTheGreat> I had a nice one for my palm at one point.
18:05:44 * pikhq unmasks it
18:05:53 <ihope> pikhq: why not?
18:06:04 <pikhq> Installing.
18:06:15 <pikhq> ihope: Nonfree software makes baby Stallman cry.
18:06:22 <ihope> Oh.
18:06:35 <ihope> You could write your own interpreter for it.
18:06:41 <pikhq> Indeed, I could.
18:06:49 <pikhq> Not bored *quite* enough yet.
18:07:08 <ihope> I could attempt to make an interpreter for it.
18:08:36 <ihope> Or I could sneakily post the language on the Wiki and hope someone else makes an interpreter for it.
18:08:50 <jix> pikhq: uhm robocode is java written but as the jvm isn't open source i guess...
18:09:00 -!- lament has joined.
18:09:12 <jix> and robocom runs fine under wine
18:09:18 <jix> (at least using mac os x)
18:09:31 <ihope> lament: ping?
18:09:49 * pikhq learns redcode
18:10:05 <lament> ihope: kong!
18:11:06 <ihope> lament: could you add a phase shift gate to your QBF interpreter?
18:11:18 <RodgerTheGreat> JVM is slated to be fully open by christmas. I look forward to it.
18:11:20 <lament> can't you do it yourself?
18:11:31 <ihope> I could...
18:11:40 <lament> just need to add a matrix for it
18:12:03 <ihope> Should be easy, then.
18:12:44 <ihope> Is it qubit.py or qbf.py?
18:13:21 <lament> probably both
18:13:36 <lament> check what happens in qbf.py in the big if-statement that takes care of individual instructions
18:13:41 <lament> for other gates
18:18:42 <ihope> Is 1j the imaginary unit, then?
18:19:31 <lament> yes
18:23:50 <ihope> I don't suppose there's a special name for anything along the lines of sin 1 + i cos 1.
18:24:30 <RodgerTheGreat> sin(1) + i*cos(1)?
18:24:36 <ihope> Yes.
18:24:53 <lament> no, there isn't.
18:25:06 <lament> what's more, i'm not sure the built-in sin and cos support imaginary numbers
18:25:21 <lament> yeah, they don't :|
18:25:24 <ihope> The results can't even be multiplied by them?
18:25:31 <lament> oh, they can
18:25:38 <lament> but do you actually mean sin(1)?
18:25:41 <ihope> Yes.
18:25:44 <lament> oh, that's easy.
18:25:47 <lament> sin is math.sin
18:25:59 <ihope> As long as sin and cos take their stuff in radians.
18:26:05 <lament> yes.
18:26:20 <lament> so math.sin(1) + 1j * math.cos(1)
18:27:02 <lament> that's a strange shift though
18:27:04 <lament> why 1?
18:27:31 <ihope> It's rationally independent to pi.
18:27:50 <lament> that much is true.
18:28:09 <lament> how's that important?
18:28:25 <ihope> You can get arbitrarily close to any real number less than 2pi with 1*x mod 2pi.
18:28:33 <ihope> ...where x is a natural number.
18:28:51 <ihope> And that means applying the phase shift thing x times.
18:29:14 <CakeProphet> I demand an accounting
18:29:35 <ihope> A what?
18:30:04 <CakeProphet> an accounting
18:30:16 <lament> seems kind of a pain to find the x though
18:30:42 <ihope> It's just a matter of... something.
18:30:46 <CakeProphet> But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. And for your
18:30:48 <CakeProphet> lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting
18:30:49 <CakeProphet> from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for
18:30:51 <CakeProphet> the life of his fellow man.
18:30:52 <CakeProphet>       --Genesis 9:4
18:31:11 <CakeProphet> God's talking about VAMPIRES!
18:31:22 <CakeProphet> Proof that vampires exist as the children of Caine.
18:31:24 <ihope> Bad CakeProphet. You didn't say what translation that was.
18:31:48 <lament> eh, yes
18:31:59 <lament> that's why the jews have to cover meat in salt so all the blood is drained
18:32:13 <ihope> lament: Add 2pi to your wanted phase shift gate a bunch of times, until you get satisfactorily close to a natural number. Or something like that.
18:32:17 <CakeProphet> Because they're vampires?
18:40:26 * ihope continues patching up the interpreter
18:44:04 * pikhq plays with Corewars for a bit
18:49:02 <ihope> Hopefully this new interpreter thingy works.
18:49:37 <jix> ihope: anything new bout your bot?
18:50:05 <ihope> It lost to Cyborg. (Did I already say that?)
18:50:30 <jix> mine does that too
18:51:11 * ihope improves it
18:57:10 <ihope> It lost again.
18:59:23 <ihope> Why, the...
19:08:24 <ihope> Of all the classic whatevers, Survival seems to be the best against Continuum.
19:08:26 <ihope> It tied.
19:13:16 <ihope> There, Survival won against Continuum.
19:17:30 <ihope> It won against Continuum again.
19:18:57 <pikhq> Redcode is 100% crazy.
19:27:25 * ihope mentions GregorR's name in the hopes that this will somehow summon him to the channel
19:30:48 <ihope> Yay! A tie against Cyborg!
19:30:58 <jix> wtf how?
19:31:00 <ihope> Of course, I only had one bot out there when it happened.
19:31:27 <ihope> Six games against it so far: five losses, one tie.
19:32:44 <ihope> And another win against Continuum, making it four.
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19:36:27 <pikhq> It be oerjan.
19:36:59 <ihope> No, silly, it's Ørjan.
19:37:04 <ihope> (Isn't it?)
19:37:48 <pikhq> ihope: Yeah, but my terminal hates Unicode.
19:38:10 <ihope> Did it yell at you?
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20:06:30 <jix> those good bots are sooooo complex :/
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21:02:49 <GregorR> Raaaaaaar
21:02:59 <GregorR> WHO DARE SUMMON ME
21:03:34 <pikhq> Ihope.
21:05:17 <ihope> GregorR: I updated the interpreter for QBF.
21:05:41 <ihope> Could you magically update EgoBot and the file archive with it?
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21:12:40 <calamari> hi
21:12:46 <pikhq> Hey.
21:12:48 <RodgerTheGreat> hey, calamari
21:13:39 <calamari> anything new & fun in esoland?
21:14:13 <ihope> calamari: there would be, but GregorR's being mean.
21:14:20 * ihope cries
21:14:32 <ihope> I HATE YOU, GregorR!
21:15:23 <pikhq> @ foo 0;@ bar 1;cons78 foo : bar;out foo;cons111 foo : bar;out foo
21:16:21 <calamari> so much drama
21:17:00 <pikhq> Or:
21:17:12 <pikhq> !bf8 >-[<->+++]<-------.[-]>--[<->-------]<+.
21:17:15 <EgoBot> No
21:18:30 <pikhq> (Proof that BFM doesn't create horribly inefficient code that makes you gouge your eyes out, even *if* you're being fairly naive when coding)
21:19:25 <ihope> !bf_txtgen No
21:19:35 <EgoBot> 45 +++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>><<<<-]>+.>+. [121]
21:19:36 <calamari> I think that's a little unfair
21:20:00 <calamari> because the textgen is being fed fixed parameters rather than being run from the command line
21:20:21 <calamari> when you tweak on it, it can really get some amazing results
21:20:50 <calamari> for example: >><<  .. that wouldn't happen if you reduced the number of memory locations
21:20:51 <pikhq> >-[<->+++]<-------.>++++[<++++++++>-]<+.
21:22:25 <pikhq> (while that could be cleaned down a lot, one must admit it's some of the most efficient code you're going to get from a naive macro language :p)
21:23:34 <calamari> !bf8 >-[<->+++]<-------.>++++[<++++++++>-]<+.
21:23:38 <EgoBot> No
21:23:43 <jix> ihope: :/ it's sooo difficuilt to write good bots
21:28:32 <calamari> !bf8 +++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++<<-]>+.>+.
21:28:36 <EgoBot> No
21:29:52 <calamari> !bf8 ++++++++[>++++++++++++++<-]>.-------.++.---.+++++++++.
21:29:54 <EgoBot> pikhq
21:30:34 <calamari> btw, mine are nonwrapping
21:31:11 <pikhq> Your point?
21:31:26 <pikhq> Mine are produced from a high-level language.
21:31:38 <calamari> so are mine.. Java :)
21:31:42 <RodgerTheGreat> haha
21:32:00 <pikhq> Oh, so you finished Java2BF?
21:32:25 <calamari> so, what doesn't yours make of "pikhq" ?
21:32:33 <calamari> doesn't -> does .. blah
21:32:47 <pikhq> Just a sec.
21:35:16 <pikhq> --[>-<-------]>++.-------.++.---.+++++++++.
21:35:22 <pikhq> !bf8 --[>-<-------]>++.-------.++.---.+++++++++.
21:35:26 <EgoBot> pikhq
21:35:30 <calamari> that uses wrapping
21:35:43 <pikhq> Because BFM produces wrapping code. Your point?
21:36:01 <calamari> your point = I'm getting defensive
21:36:08 <pikhq> Hahah.
21:36:44 <calamari> is there a nonwrapping mode?
21:36:46 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pik.bfm has the corresponding BFM source code. . .
21:36:49 <pikhq> Nope.
21:36:55 <pikhq> Not yet, at least. ;)
21:37:29 <calamari> !bf16 --[>-<-------]>++.-------.++.---.+++++++++.
21:37:32 <EgoBot> pikhq
21:37:38 <calamari> !bf32 --[>-<-------]>++.-------.++.---.+++++++++.
21:37:57 <calamari> hmmm.. ;)
21:38:11 <calamari> !bf32 ++++++++[>++++++++++++++<-]>.-------.++.---.+++++++++............
21:38:14 <EgoBot> pikhqqqqqqqqqqqq
21:38:18 <pikhq> It works on 16 bit implementations. Odd.
21:38:28 <calamari> nah.. it'lkl work on 32
21:38:34 <calamari> it's just going to take forever
21:38:46 <calamari> notice how fast might was since it didn't use wrapping
21:38:50 <calamari> might - > mine
21:39:24 <calamari> anyhow
21:39:38 <pikhq> So, you worry about working where char!=8 bits.
21:39:43 <calamari> sure
21:39:44 <pikhq> Not worth it, IMO.
21:40:10 <calamari> I didn't care for a while
21:40:16 <EgoBot> pikhq
21:40:25 <calamari> but then it bit me when I had a bunch of crappy algorithms IU could no longer use
21:40:30 <pikhq> It does work, still. :)
21:40:42 <calamari> yeah.. but see how much faster it was without wrapping? :)
21:41:00 <pikhq> Need to set up three modes. . .
21:41:25 <pikhq> Wrapping, nonwrapping, and "112 plusses in a row? Sure, why not?".
21:41:40 <calamari> yeah.. now that's a nice mode too
21:41:42 <calamari> hehe
21:41:50 <calamari> that would be the bf audio mode ;)
21:42:05 <pikhq> More easily compiled into C via basm. ;)
21:42:51 <calamari> have any bf -> ... compilers been able to combine a printed string rather than printing a bunch of chars?
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21:43:12 <pikhq> Doubtful.
21:43:33 <calamari> for example: ++++++++[>++++++++++++++<-]>.-------.++.---.+++++++++. => printf("pikhq");
21:44:08 <calamari> would have to check ahead to see if the memory locations were used later without being cleared to zero
21:44:28 <pikhq> Perhaps one could make a compiler convert all programs that don't accept input into some printfs. :p
21:44:42 <calamari> not true
21:44:52 <calamari> loops will mess you up there :)
21:45:10 <pikhq> Right.
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22:01:38 <jix> ihope_: hah i think i found a strategy for robocom that could work
22:04:28 <ihope_> What's that?
22:05:55 <calamari> robotron 2084.. in bf ;)
22:06:02 <calamari> (just kidding)
22:06:11 <jix> i wont tell yet and it will be a lot of work
22:06:17 <jix> i'm going to bed now gn8
22:06:56 <calamari> I'd like to write some bf code but my son insists I hold him instead
22:07:19 <calamari> jix: hope you finish it.. you are as bad at finishing projects as I am :)
22:07:32 <jix> i'm worse
22:07:49 <ihope_> jix: have you ever finished a project?
22:07:54 <jix> yes
22:07:55 <jix> two
22:07:57 <jix> at least
22:08:02 <jix> icfar.co.uk is one
22:08:11 <ihope_> You're probably better than calamari, then. :-P
22:08:26 <calamari> jix: if you ever figure out a fix for that.. please let me know ;)
22:08:33 <calamari> ihope_: lol
22:08:45 <jix> gn8
22:08:46 <ihope_> A fix?
22:08:48 <jix> i have to sleep now
22:08:52 <calamari> ihope: for my brain
22:09:01 <jix> calamari: upgrade to brain 2.0
22:09:07 <ihope_> Brain 2.0?
22:09:11 <ihope_> No, that's old news.
22:09:16 <calamari> jix: not gpl :(
22:09:26 <ihope_> Wait...
22:09:27 <jix> yeah but he's probably stuck at brain 0.1.1
22:09:33 <jix> ^^
22:09:35 <ihope_> Brain 0.1.1? Sheesh...
22:09:58 <calamari> night jix
22:09:58 <jix> m$ brain 2000 xp pro special edition sp 4
22:10:16 <jix> + me
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23:19:22 <ihope_> I see Continuum is rather vulnerable.
23:39:33 * ihope_ improves his program slightly
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23:41:51 <ihope_> Now a negative death timer won't mess things up.

2006-10-30:

00:54:31 <Sgeo> Continuum?
00:55:12 <Sgeo> Wowdelayed
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01:01:11 <ihope_> DJ CoNTiNUuM.
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02:48:52 * SimonRC plays _Polybius_.
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04:59:09 <Razor-X> Recomendation for a good book: Machine Learning, by Tom M. Mitchell.
04:59:50 <Razor-X> Most of the books on it at our local University-joint public library are *awful*. Some are decent.
04:59:56 <Razor-X> This one stands out, IMO.
05:01:06 <Razor-X> Wow. calamari's even worse than me.
05:01:11 <Razor-X> I've finished two projets also.
05:01:30 <Razor-X> And I'll have to finish one for school. So that'll make 3.
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05:20:31 <calamari> bbl
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07:59:13 <thematrixeatsyou> haro
07:59:31 <thematrixeatsyou> well what do you know it. i've made another esolang.
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08:00:42 <thematrixeatsyou> damn, net's gonna go off soon, bye
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16:46:02 <SimonRC> Oh dear, it seems some guy has invented the "piles of papers randomly scattered on desktop" UI metaphor.
16:46:11 <SimonRC> http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/06/10/30/0325217.shtml
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21:24:20 <RodgerTheGreat> SimonRC: the "no GUI" design concept is a promising one, but it'll certainly require working with computers in a dramatically different manner than we do today
21:31:31 <oerjan> like they did 30 years ago?
21:32:13 * oerjan ducks
21:36:37 * GregorR-L throws something at oerjan 
21:36:40 <GregorR-L> Darn, he ducked.
21:37:43 <oerjan> my intuition on this is that gestures might perhaps replace keyboard shortcuts to a degree, but for me one of the plusses about gui's is that you can look through the menus for things you don't already know how to do, or that you do rarely enough not to bother remembering a shortcut
21:39:51 <RodgerTheGreat> I really dislike the concept of a heirarchal menu- they hide information and options, rather that displaying them
21:40:06 <RodgerTheGreat> I prefer customizable toolbars
21:40:08 <GregorR-L> Then you, sir, are an idiot.
21:40:21 * GregorR-L is always so blunt :P
21:40:27 <RodgerTheGreat> what an informed and well-constructed counter-argument, sir.
21:40:33 <GregorR-L> Most programs have more options than anybody wants to use.
21:40:48 <GregorR-L> Toolbars are nice, but still require a certain knowledge about the function of the sofware.
21:40:55 <RodgerTheGreat> that's my point- people should be able to remove options they have no use for.
21:41:19 <GregorR-L> 1) And what, add options they don't know the program has by means they don't know?
21:41:37 <GregorR-L> 2) And wonder what those stupid icons do, because there's no room for text on the toolbar?
21:41:51 <RodgerTheGreat> that's what tooltips are for.
21:41:54 <GregorR-L> 3) And be required to have a precise grasp on ---
21:42:03 <GregorR-L> OK, you've mentioned tooltips, thereby invalidating everything.
21:42:06 * GregorR-L disappears.
21:42:22 <RodgerTheGreat> whatever.
21:42:42 <oerjan> so, a good interface should have several levels, from user customizable parts to documentation parts. surely this is not new
21:43:01 <RodgerTheGreat> menus work reasonably well in  single-levels, but nested menus are an interface design mistake
21:44:25 <GregorR-L> Nested menus are an unfortunate fact of complicated systems.
21:45:03 <GregorR-L> Are they always intuitive?  No.  But they're sure a lot better than huge, flat, unnavigable menus.
21:46:11 <RodgerTheGreat> I think the basic concept behind "Office Assistants" was horrifically implemented, but contains some good ideas.
21:46:41 <RodgerTheGreat> an anticipatory GUI, if well designed, could do an excellent job at managing large featurelists
21:47:23 <RodgerTheGreat> the problem with "Clippy" is that it gets in your way, does a poor job of determining what you're trying to do, and isn't well integrated into the interface itself.
21:47:24 <oerjan> of course nothing is going to help a user who cannot explain what he wants, anyhow...
21:47:32 <RodgerTheGreat> true
22:01:11 <RodgerTheGreat> I like the idea of an interface where editors and viewers become transparent- for example, a document would be represented by an icon that resembled it (as is becoming common), but then you can simply "zoom in" and have it fill the screen, with a small selection of tools to apply to the document appearing nearby
22:01:33 <RodgerTheGreat> kinda LISA-esque, in the "there are no applications" sense.
22:02:43 <GregorR-L> Such interfaces assure vender lock-in.
22:03:36 <GregorR-L> The philosophy is nice, but pragmatically it's a can of worms.
22:05:09 <RodgerTheGreat> there are a variety of ways you could extend a system like that.
22:05:55 <oerjan> it doesn't have to assure vendor lock-in, you could surely reassign file types to a different application
22:06:13 <RodgerTheGreat> just make applications more like browser plugins
22:06:48 <RodgerTheGreat> operating systems already govern the GUI's used by applications, so this is just going a step further
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03:45:39 * pikhq laughs evilly
03:46:29 <pikhq> One of my friends is in college. . . He's noted that one of his CS courses doesn't specify a language. . .
03:46:45 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, jesus
03:46:59 <pikhq> He's considering doing at least one assignment in BFM, and turning in the BF-compiled result.
03:47:28 <RodgerTheGreat> can he scan in the amusing comments his teacher will write on it next to his failing grade?
03:47:53 <bsmntbombdood> haha
03:48:00 <bsmntbombdood> Whats BFM?
03:48:10 <pikhq> A macro package for Brainfuck I designed. . .
03:48:15 <bsmntbombdood> hmmm
03:48:16 <bsmntbombdood> linke me
03:48:31 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bfm.tar.bz2
03:48:59 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/basm.tar.bz2 if you want an example of code written in it.
03:49:28 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: think of it as BFBASIC on extremely powerful drugs.
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03:50:12 <bsmntbombdood> yuck tcl
03:50:12 <pikhq> Speaking of which, I should probably update the tarballs. . .
03:51:18 <GregorR-L> pikhq: http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/GregorRichards/langchoice.png
03:51:24 <bsmntbombdood> I don't get it
03:52:28 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR-L: hahaha
03:56:01 <pikhq> New tarballs up.
03:56:41 <pikhq> Sounds like he's going to turn in one assignment in twice: one version in BF, one in Lisp.
03:57:34 <GregorR-L> ihope: URL
03:57:37 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Also URL
03:57:53 <pikhq> What? Of BFM and Basm?
03:58:11 <GregorR-L> Does BFM use Basm? >_O
03:58:20 <pikhq> No, Basm is written in BFM.
03:58:23 <GregorR-L> Oh, hahah, there they are :P
03:58:48 <pikhq> I usually test code using egobfi8. . .
03:59:01 <pikhq> So, all generated code is almost guaranteed to work *there*, at least. ;)
04:00:03 <GregorR-L> Whoot.
04:03:00 * GregorR-L can't figure out how to put bfm in EgoBot :P
04:03:02 <pikhq> basm.bfm, BTW, also demonstrates how one may have a single source file generate code for EOF=-1, EOF=0, or EOF=255.
04:03:13 <pikhq> Don't try. :p
04:03:37 <pikhq> s/255/nochange/
04:06:20 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Thoughts?
04:14:35 <bsmntbombdood> thoughts?
04:15:06 <pikhq> On BFM?
04:15:15 <bsmntbombdood> I didn't look at it
04:15:20 <pikhq> Oh.
04:15:58 <bsmntbombdood> I will
04:16:07 <pikhq> :)
04:16:37 <bsmntbombdood> gah
04:16:39 <bsmntbombdood> tcl is weird
04:16:52 <pikhq> My Tcl style is also a bit weird. . .
04:17:30 <bsmntbombdood> no me gusta
04:17:38 <pikhq> Hmm?
04:19:24 <bsmntbombdood> hmmmmm
04:19:28 <bsmntbombdood> looks interesting
04:20:47 <bsmntbombdood> I should right a c to brainfuck compiler
04:21:03 <pikhq> Maintain Gregor's.
04:21:09 <bsmntbombdood> !
04:21:11 <EgoBot> Huh?
04:21:18 <bsmntbombdood> he has one?
04:21:21 <pikhq> Yeah.
04:21:27 * bsmntbombdood gets excited
04:21:32 <pikhq> In need of more coding, but it does work.
04:21:45 <bsmntbombdood> link me?
04:22:12 <pikhq> http://esolangs.org/wiki/C2BF
04:24:03 <bsmntbombdood> sweet
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04:53:49 <Razor-X> Suggestion is that you understand enough hardware to be able to model an FSM and a Datapath.
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06:48:37 <Razor-X> You can overwrite the ROM.
06:48:54 <Razor-X> It's just that, the structure of the ROM is still a real mystery, since most people rely on PalmOS hooks.
06:49:36 <Razor-X> Well, romeos can decompose the ROM into a small and large ROM. The large ROM is irrelevant, since it loads PDBs, so I can only guess that the actual OS code is loaded into the Small ROM. Now how is a big mystery.
06:50:59 <Razor-X> The step would be to try to disassemble the ROM, and use the (seemingly irrelevant) documentation on the DragonBall (and friends) processor.
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09:29:33 <Razor-X> Writing a Quine is so easy in Forth.
09:29:54 <Razor-X> CR TIB #TIB @ TYPE CR
09:29:57 <Razor-X> Quine.
10:38:52 <ihope> Is that one of those cheating ones?
10:40:12 <ihope> GregorR: email?
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11:57:07 * ihope plays "robots" without using the "t" key
11:57:43 * ihope loses
11:58:09 * ihope loses again
11:59:07 * ihope loses twice more
11:59:12 <ihope> Zero points every time.
11:59:24 * ihope instead plays NetHack without using the "t" key
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13:41:08 <RodgerTheGreat> back
13:42:22 <RodgerTheGreat> Razor-X: I don't think you understand- many palm models used flash memory as a ROM, whereas the visor and the m100 (among some other models) use regular-old ROM. The visor ROM is non-writeable.
13:42:58 <RodgerTheGreat> if you want to know more about the low-level structure of PalmOS, you might want to look into AMX, the operating system it was built on.
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14:34:40 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: Oh? Totally unwritable? Bleh.
14:35:26 <RodgerTheGreat> it was a cost-cutting measure in the design- one of the reasons they were able to sell visors for ~$160 when palms were going for nearly $300
14:35:42 <RodgerTheGreat> sorry. :(
14:35:56 <Razor-X> The only thing you can do is load it into RAM PalmLoader style then...
14:36:01 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah
14:36:11 <RodgerTheGreat> one possibility-
14:36:30 <RodgerTheGreat> do you have any cartridges for your visor?
14:37:06 <RodgerTheGreat> once palmOS loads, they can automatically run a program from a cartridge, meaning you might be able to store your alternative OS on one,
14:37:14 <RodgerTheGreat> dunno- it's a possibility.
14:42:33 <Razor-X> Yeah. To grab onto a certain hook. Hopefully.
14:44:56 <RodgerTheGreat> replacing the operating system on palm-based devices can be extremely tricky.
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15:15:06 <RodgerTheGreat> bbiab
15:43:35 <RodgerTheGreat> I have returned
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17:08:21 <calamari> hi
17:09:04 <RodgerTheGreat> hey, calamari.
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17:38:55 <calamari> I thought I had a clever way to have predicatble pauses in bf.. but it didn't work out :P
17:39:23 <calamari> I was hoping that I could play a very low note using ansi and that it wouldn't print until it was done playing
17:39:34 <calamari> but of course it printed right away
17:40:02 <lament> just do a long loop.
17:40:18 <calamari> lament: the problem is this: how long?
17:40:53 <calamari> I could ask the user to push entewr then push enter again after a second has passed, but that's clunky
17:42:08 <lament> well............add interrupts to brainfuck :)
17:42:19 <calamari> heh
18:00:58 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
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18:47:55 <pikhq> calamari: Pause for clock cycles, not seconds. :p
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20:00:04 <ihope> Pause for one clock cycle?
20:00:14 <ihope> How... useful.
20:00:44 <ihope> (And what is this "ansi" you speak of? Surely you're not asking the American National Standards Whatever to play the note for you.)
20:05:18 <lament> actually he probably is.
20:06:59 <oerjan> ansi escape characters i assume
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20:19:02 <Sgeo> Maybe we could write the specs on YouOS?
20:19:06 * Sgeo is Sgeo
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20:20:06 <Sgeo> Hi ihope
20:20:24 * Sgeo thinks that the Factory specs thing could be written in YouOS
20:20:33 * Sgeo is shamelessly promoting it right now :/
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20:27:05 <ihope_> ANSI escape characters can play music?
20:28:46 <Asztal> \x7
20:29:08 <Asztal> not exactly music, but then, they didn't have music back in those days
20:30:04 <ihope_> How can you play a very low note with that?
20:34:57 <fizzie> If you mean the ASCII character BEL (codepoint 7), I wouldn't call it (or any other ASCII control chars, like linefeed) an ANSI escape sequence. (Admittedly it's listed in the same standard, though.)
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20:38:56 <fizzie> (I don't see any other sound functions in 5th edition of ECMA-48, which should be approximately the same as ANSI X3.64.)
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20:46:55 <ihope_> ANSI escape sequences are defined in the same place as ASCII?
20:50:19 <fizzie> The ANSI standard (or at least that ECMA-48, which should be the same thing) lists also the ASCII control characters and their semantics.
20:50:49 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code
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23:29:08 <ihope_> Hey, what happened to GregorR?
23:29:49 <oerjan> he was whisked away by flesh-eating zombies.
23:30:38 <xor> I should learn an HDL
23:42:00 <Razor-X> Yes you should :D
23:42:28 <xor> Which one
23:43:25 <ihope_> HDL?
23:43:32 <Razor-X> Verilog, my suggestions.
23:43:33 <xor> hardware description language
23:43:33 <ihope_> High development language?
23:43:40 <Razor-X> *suggestion
23:43:41 <ihope_> Ah.
23:43:58 <Razor-X> Maybe just because I'm C (god-forsaken language) biased.
23:50:23 <xor> Razor-X: Have you coded in verilog?
23:50:48 <Razor-X> xor: Somewhat.
23:50:55 <Razor-X> But I need better books for more.
23:51:20 <Razor-X> VHDL looks like some weird mix of FORTRAN and K&R C.
23:51:31 <pikhq> Razor-X: I recommend coding a lot and hoping you don't screw it up. :p
23:51:46 <Razor-X> pikhq: ... :P
23:52:24 <Razor-X> If you come by a good Verilog tutorial, please tell me!