00:00:06 <SimonRC> hi
00:00:41 <CakeProphet> mmm
00:01:18 <lament> You are all wrong.
00:01:31 <SimonRC> orly?  how so?
00:01:46 <GregorR-L> lament could have that on a T-Shirt.
00:03:09 * SimonRC hopes lament is typing a long and enlightening sentance.
00:03:21 * bsmntbombdood too
00:03:41 * GregorR-L hopes that lament is typing a long rant that will make this conversation keep spiraling into the tubes.
00:04:18 <lament> no.
00:04:19 <bsmntbombdood> Well - I need an idea for a project for the programming teacher
00:05:56 <SimonRC> A roguelike!
00:06:18 <bsmntbombdood> boring
00:06:22 <SimonRC> They can last as a project from a few days to a lifetime.
00:13:25 <lament> bsmntbombdood: a virtual girlfriend
00:13:36 <bsmntbombdood> hehe
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00:19:49 <SimonRC> WRU?
00:22:13 <bsmntbombdood> WRU?
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00:51:04 <CakeProphet> hmmm...
00:51:36 <CakeProphet> Changing the entire foundation of your fairly-developed-but-not-quite-complete system structure is absolutely lovely
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01:02:44 <GreaseMonkey>   ##-#
01:02:45 <GreaseMonkey> 1 > +< 2
01:02:45 <GreaseMonkey>    # 
01:02:45 <GreaseMonkey>   -
01:02:45 <GreaseMonkey>   #
01:02:45 <GreaseMonkey>    ##
01:02:50 <GreaseMonkey> ftw
01:15:31 * GreaseMonkey is away: afk pie
01:15:50 <GregorR-L> Pie made from the sweet sweet AFK berries.
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02:50:57 <SimonRC> hi
02:51:05 <SimonRC> JadussD: who are you?
02:51:11 <JadussD> a wanderer i guess
02:51:35 <SimonRC> Did you know what this place was before coming here?
02:51:55 <JadussD> in a way, i had an idea.
02:52:06 <SimonRC> Where did you find out about it?
02:52:14 <JadussD> i guessed that it existed.
02:52:19 <SimonRC> hm
02:52:25 <lament> didn't we all.
02:52:43 <SimonRC> No.  I think I read about it on an esolanging webpage
02:53:06 <SimonRC> Although I know a few of the inhabitants here from other channels
02:53:17 <lament> i don't :(
02:53:51 <SimonRC> Have a look around the wiki, there're loads of esolangs on there, not all implemented.
02:53:57 <JadussD> i have encountered brainfuck before...
02:54:01 <JadussD> this is new to me though
02:54:23 <SimonRC> that was the first esolang I found out about too
02:54:51 <SimonRC> NewScientist ran a small column on esolangs many years back, and I Googled#.
02:55:04 <SimonRC> IIRC I was in secondary school.
03:01:58 <JadussD> i had no idea there were so many programming languages, cool. does anyone know of one designed for relating words, ie, one designed for words grouped into categories like "synonym", "antonym", a two word replacement for a single word, etc?
03:15:56 <lament> no.
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05:04:49 <GreaseMonkey> gtg food
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17:31:56 <RodgerTheGreat> hey guys, check this out: http://archives.nesc.ac.uk/gcproposal-5/0080.html
17:32:55 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.bookofparagon.com/Mathematics/PerspexMachineIII.pdf
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19:33:52 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: Ah, just some guy who seems to have invented a nice way to extend the reals to handle 0/0.
19:36:14 <tokigun> i've heard the story in the another channel, and concluded the guy was pretty boring so make (or invent) that useless symbol.
19:39:05 <tokigun> btw, i wonder last time i tell something here :S
19:39:32 <SimonRC> He's apparently got a mildly useful system out of it.
19:40:19 <SimonRC> Oh, there is a great quote in his paper (from memory): "The popularity of IEEE floating-point shows that the Reals are not fit for purpose."
19:41:13 <Razor-X> Bleh. I heard about this story just a few hours ago in another channel.
19:41:47 <Razor-X> So, what *is* nullity / nullity?
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19:56:05 <SimonRC> Razor-X: 0/0 it appears
19:56:36 <SimonRC> A CS grad I know says that this system looks useful for his work (program correctness, among other things).
20:02:15 <Razor-X> Heh.
20:02:26 <Razor-X> I haven't read the actual paper, just someone else's gloss-over.
20:02:38 <Razor-X> If it's too intense I won't until my flu abates, either.
20:04:29 <tokigun> PerspexMachineIII.pdf is the actual paper? link seems broken.
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20:44:23 <Razor-X> Is there some sort of little-DSP-vocabulary-knowledge version of the Vorbis (or MP3) standard out there?
21:08:11 <SimonRC> In trying to cut down the possible algorithms for sorting 5 items with just 7 comparisons, I think I am gradually creating a proof that such an algorithm cannot exist.
21:08:29 <bsmntbombdood> fun
21:08:47 <SimonRC> Trying to find one is summative coursework.
21:08:59 <bsmntbombdood> bubble sort ftw
21:12:53 <SimonRC> The constraints so far are guiding my algorith-creation precisely.
21:13:34 <SimonRC> Now all I have to do is keep following the constrains and prove new ones until I get either an answer or a complete set of dead-ends.
21:14:26 <tokigun> anyone interested in Hisashi Iizawa's Malbolge paper?
21:15:20 <tokigun> i have a plan to translate the paper to english, although i'm not fluent in japanese (only have basic understanding)
21:15:23 <bsmntbombdood> what a load of shit: http://www.bbc.co.uk/berkshire/content/articles/2006/12/06/divide_zero_feature.shtml
21:16:13 <SimonRC> A compsci grad says it looks useful for proably-correct programs, as it makes division total.
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21:55:36 <Razor-X> Where's the paper? I'll give the translation a go.
21:56:05 <Razor-X> The Malbolge one, obviously.
21:56:20 <tokigun> Razor-X, http://www.sakabe.i.is.nagoya-u.ac.jp/~nishida/DB/pdf/iizawa05ss2005-22.pdf here.
21:57:08 <tokigun> can you understand japanese?
21:57:25 <Razor-X> Yeah. I can.
21:57:32 <Razor-X> ... And Xpdf renders that into garbage.
21:57:48 <Razor-X> I guess I need to get the Japanese fonts for it.
21:58:43 <tokigun> i think you can translate the paper better than i can ;)
21:59:33 <Razor-X> Well, my Japanese is alright. Enough for teen novels with difficulty.
22:00:16 <SimonRC> use pdf2text or similar?
22:00:23 <Razor-X> Maybe... hmmm...
22:00:52 <Razor-X> Nope. It's an xpdf thing, after all.
22:01:06 <Razor-X> Bleh. And the Japanese language pack on the Foolabs site seems unavailable.
22:01:28 <tokigun> i'm learning japanese, but not so good for the paper ;) what i can do is to figure out the meaning from machanical translation.
22:02:16 <tokigun> (japanese to korean translation is very excellent, and i know common mistakes by the translation.)
22:05:21 <Razor-X> Well, you'll probably be pretty good at it, because my closest (mental) bridge is to Bengali.
22:05:30 <Razor-X> Korean *is* a CJK language so....
22:06:52 <tokigun> http://sobo.ruree.net/tmp/malbolge.txt this is my current translation (incomplete).
22:08:14 <Razor-X> Error: Couldn't find a font for 'Ryumin-Light-H'
22:08:14 <Razor-X> Error: Couldn't find a font for 'GothicBBB-Medium-H'
22:08:17 <Razor-X> Guh.
22:08:24 <Razor-X> Meant for scratch buffer, sorry.
22:08:24 <tokigun> hmm...
22:09:02 <tokigun> how about this?
22:09:02 <tokigun> http://72.14.253.104/search?hl=ko&q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.sakabe.i.is.nagoya-u.ac.jp%2F~nishida%2FDB%2Fpdf%2Fiizawa05ss2005-22.pdf&btnG=%EA%B2%80%EC%83%89&lr=
22:09:35 <tokigun> google cache is enough for seeing pdfs without figures.
22:10:08 <Razor-X> Meh. Google beats xpdf.
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22:27:11 <Razor-X> This is going to be tough. I'll start in a bit on it with force.
22:27:21 <Razor-X> Because I'll need an undisturbed atmosphere.
22:39:20 <SimonRC> BTW, I found that the sorting problem I was trying to do to be just about possible.
22:39:46 <SimonRC> I really did find the solution by trying to prove that none existed.
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23:01:43 <pgimeno> tokigun: I'm very interested in that paper
23:02:13 <bsmntbombdood> SimonRC: So, how do you do it?
23:02:23 <tokigun> pgimeno, so do i.
23:03:42 <tokigun> Iizawa didn't mention actual construction of 99 bottles of beer program, but anyway it seems to be useful for programming in malbolge.
23:05:29 <pgimeno> I already took advantage of a Google translation to find that the basis of Iizawa's method was 'data modules', but I'm interested in the details
23:05:35 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: I'll post is in a moe
23:05:37 <SimonRC> *mo
23:06:15 <tokigun> well, i didn't fully understand the idea too
23:07:40 <tokigun> have you seen my translation above? data module is discussed in chapter 4, and it is fully translated. take a look at it please ;)
23:07:46 <pgimeno> just saved your txt (Mozilla does not wrap text)
23:08:23 <tokigun> wrap text can be get by showing source... maybe
23:08:53 <Razor-X> Is this the guy's graduate paper?
23:09:03 <tokigun> once translated, can i post the translation to wiki?
23:09:36 <tokigun> Razor-X, seems not. i guess Iizawa is a professor and Sakabe et al. are grad students.
23:09:40 <pgimeno> tokigun: not even that way, I'm reading it with a different editor... and I guess the text is not free
23:10:01 <Razor-X> Ok then, because he refers to a compound word that translates as ``Senior Research''.
23:10:28 <tokigun> ah, cannot be in public domain... i see.
23:11:01 <Razor-X> Well, the aim of the paper is Malbolge in usage for programming protection.
23:11:06 <tokigun> Razor-X, you mean a sentence shortly after sample malbolge program?
23:11:10 <Razor-X> tokigun: Yeah.
23:11:26 <Razor-X> After his "Hello World!" program.
23:12:21 <tokigun> i think it should be translated "previous works" or something else, because it refers (for example) making cat program in malbolge and so on.
23:13:15 <tokigun> like Andrew Cooke and Lou Scheffer...
23:14:14 <Razor-X> Well, I would've translated it as "In this senior research paper, I have found that Malbolge can produce some of the most feasibly difficult programs ever. Programming in Malbolge is not a widely known art" at least, that first paragraph.
23:15:07 <Razor-X> The paragraph directly below his hello world program.
23:15:30 <tokigun> maybe correct.
23:16:14 <bsmntbombdood> Translation is hard :/
23:16:23 <tokigun> (i'd confused if senior research means Iizawa's or other people's... nevermind.)
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23:22:59 <Razor-X> What's a kinetic command?
23:23:15 <tokigun> Razor-X, dynamic command?
23:23:19 <Razor-X> I was thinking about that.
23:23:20 <pgimeno> for the purpose that Iizawa uses as excuse (obfuscation) I like MiniSCule best... the inner loop does not look like an interpreter and noone would say the data manipulation is actually a program
23:23:38 <Razor-X> Is there something about inputting programs on the same line in Malbolge?
23:24:24 <Razor-X> The third bullet point in his list of difficulties I would translate as "It is difficult to write dynamic [Trans: Lit: kinetic] commands on the same line"
23:24:59 <tokigun> i've translated that to...
23:24:59 <tokigun> * Each instruction forces to rewrite the program, so it's hard to repeat same sequence of instructions.
23:25:09 <pgimeno> well, it refers to encryption
23:25:29 <pgimeno> each instruction suffers a translation after being executed
23:25:37 <SimonRC> Actually, I will wait until the submission deadline before putting it online I think.
23:26:16 <Razor-X> See, the Japanese says "dynamic write".
23:26:22 <Razor-X> I had know idea what that meant.
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23:26:28 <Razor-X> s/know/no/
23:26:35 <pgimeno> dynamically rewritten?
23:26:58 <Razor-X> It uses the normal verb for "to write".
23:27:57 <Razor-X> Gah. I'm taking a break :P
23:28:05 <Razor-X> One page of this, and it's intense.
23:28:10 <tokigun> :p
23:28:38 <Razor-X> But I don't feel too bad. If I was an average Japanese student of my age, assuming American educational equivalence, it would be difficult to read also.
23:29:04 <tokigun> i'm feeling writing in english is harder than reading japanese... *phew*
23:29:12 <Razor-X> Heh.
23:29:29 <Razor-X> I think the title is a great example between the differences between English and Japanese.
23:30:13 <Razor-X> Obfuscated Programming Language Malbolge in Program Organization Method, literally.
23:35:04 <tokigun> i found interesting fact in the paper... read last sentence in chapter 8 (conclusion).
23:39:47 <pgimeno> 4.3 looks really promising
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