00:10:36 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 00:13:12 Malbolge seems awfully resistant to attempts to remove its size limitations. :( 00:15:21 At least without totally breaking backwards compatibility. 00:26:29 -!- ihope has joined. 00:29:46 So does the platform for our operating system exist yet? 01:06:48 "Wikipoedia -- Wikipedia for kids!" 01:06:49 X-P 01:07:14 mayby my classical roots are mixed up :-S 01:07:25 heh 01:09:30 There should be a way to recurse in lambdas 01:11:09 IIRC lisp has LAMREC 01:11:36 Some typesystems will allow the definition of the y-operator, too 01:13:01 Yeah. 01:13:06 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:13:45 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:17:09 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 01:18:14 which lisp? 01:20:04 y-operator? 01:21:51 fix f = f (fix f) 01:22:12 (And y = fix) 01:24:51 What's the point of that? 01:25:16 That's all the recursion you need. 01:25:59 If you want f x y = x (y f) y y (f y x), then f = fix (\b -> x (y b) y y (b y x)). 01:28:00 oh 01:31:57 hmmm... this is nifty. 01:32:27 I've got a USABLE esolang, designed to be used in an actual application, that resemvles English, and looks weird. 01:32:46 still writing the spec... of course. 01:32:54 what is it like? 01:33:20 It reminds me of ORK superficially.. 01:33:26 but it doesn't have a myriad of special keywords. 01:33:27 Quick, you must give it only linear types in order to make it more useless and esoteric! 01:33:47 There is a Scribe named SimonRC. 01:33:55 * SimonRC wonders what would happen if you crossed "ORCS!" with "Ork". Both are OO. 01:34:07 "ORCS!" is a lang for writing roguelikes. 01:34:16 You there, cat 01:34:21 bsmntbombdood: Oooooh no there isn't! 01:34:22 SimonRC is to right "something" 01:34:23 You have stuff the letters 01:34:27 - 01:34:35 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:34:42 we are saying our stuff 01:34:47 CakeProphet: :-S 01:34:55 Thank you, good sir! 01:35:03 that was a cat program. 01:35:07 ah, ok 01:35:26 but none of that, except "Thank you, good sir!" was a reserved keyword. 01:35:49 pics or it didn't happen 01:36:26 right now I'm just calling conSTABLE 01:37:29 What kind of bloody keyword is "Thank you, good sir!"? 01:37:37 ends the function. 01:38:00 What'd I miss, and what the hell is wrong with you? 01:38:25 There is a Scribe named pikhq. 01:38:30 well... You there, cat amy or may not be special syntax... 01:38:37 pikhq is to write "Hello, world". 01:38:57 You there, hello 01:38:58 bsmntbombdood: The class is "scribe", not "Scribe". 01:38:58 - 01:39:00 a hello world program 01:39:10 pikhq: fine! 01:39:44 - 01:39:46 - 01:39:47 We are saying "Hello, World!" 01:39:49 Thank you, good sir! 01:39:50 We hello 01:40:21 * pikhq thinks of a brilliantly insane idea. . . 01:40:53 Make a Brainfuck variant which makes use of every character which one can type on a standard US English keyboard. 01:41:10 That would be printable ASCII. 01:41:22 * oerjan thinks of an even more brilliantly insane idea. 01:41:34 Make that a Chinese keyboard. 01:41:39 And I have final exams tomorrow and it's bedtime. Bye-bye. 01:41:50 oerjan: Have you seen a chinese keyboard 01:41:56 -!- ihope has quit ("No, make that Unicode. Very insane."). 01:41:57 hrm... and it apparently will be using list-like symbols. 01:42:26 but... not exactly.. like you can set objects as well as symbols, which has the effect of being in-place assignment. 01:42:57 er... lisp-like symbols 01:46:27 God. . . 01:47:19 oerjan: http://www.fi.muni.cz/usr/wong/teaching/chinese/notes/node11.html 01:47:20 You could even make this Brainfuck++ include a couple of stacks. . . Forking. . . Two arrays. . . 01:47:24 God, that's just evil. 01:47:36 THE kb HAS CHARACTER FRAGMENTS ON IT WHICH THE COMPUTER ASSEMBLES 01:47:44 dAMN cAPSlOCK. 01:48:18 There ought to be a distributed-computing version of Brainfuck. 01:48:33 It would be called "Clusterfuck" 01:48:42 the OO version would be "OFuck" 01:48:47 The multiple-threaded Brainfuck version could probably be ran on a distributed computing system. 01:48:58 and the unicode version "Fuck-U" 01:49:13 Hahah. 01:49:14 pikhq: (that was just a joke about the names) 01:49:28 I see that now. 01:50:25 And, I assume, there'd be an Internet-supporting version called "GoFuck", and one that's introspective, called "Yourself". . . 01:50:34 And the combined version, "GoFuckYourself". 01:50:41 hehe 01:51:25 If you add a command for turning off the computer, that would be "FuckOff" 01:52:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:52:39 I will leave to others to mention the name of the web camera version 01:52:40 SO 01:52:48 THIS SOUNDS LIKE A JOB FOR THAT ESOLANG FACTORY 01:52:50 And a version combined with Malbolge. . . 01:52:53 "GoToHell." 01:52:54 THE WORLD'S LARGEST BF IMPLEMENTATION 01:53:01 Variant, you mean. 01:53:08 ...yeah 01:53:32 concurency, networking, oo, functional, extended control flow, etc 01:53:45 oerjan: Actually I can't guess that one. 01:54:17 Sexy BrainFuck Live? 01:54:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 01:55:40 CakeProphet: it would be like OO COBOL. you would only see clear code when in your programming class, buit in the Real World, you would keep finding code that still had raw <>+_[]., in it. 01:55:57 OST, that would what BFM would be like as a commercial language. 01:56:21 SimonRC, In what? 01:56:52 If BF was extended into a commercial language. 01:56:58 ok then, it would obviously be FuckFace 01:57:01 no no 01:57:01 Yo0u know what real-world COBOL is like, right? 01:57:04 not a commercial language.. 01:57:14 just a... really stuffed language. 01:57:19 oerjan: sigh. That is the one with interface definitions, surely? 01:57:53 I've never quite figured out the use of an interface -type- 01:57:58 Yes. . . We must engage in factoriness. 01:58:26 put it on the wiki? 01:58:40 * CakeProphet could do it. 01:58:48 *grin* 01:58:59 which inevitably means that I'll be the lucky one implementing it later... 01:59:01 ... 01:59:17 this, however, would be a Fucktory. 01:59:57 Heheh. 02:00:21 I really like the space-delimits-both-functions-and-class-attributes syntax of conSTABLE 02:00:55 2 + 2 gets the + method of the first two, and calls it on the second two... the parser can easily eliminate all ambiguity. 02:02:58 Is that a fact or wishful thinking. 02:03:20 I think it's a magical parser. 02:03:27 nah... as far as I can tell... the parser can't create ambiguity. 02:03:36 I've tried all sorts of situations... in my head anyways 02:03:40 Perhaps even an oracle machine? 02:04:30 the only restriction is that thee can't be default values for arguments and there can't be arbitrary numbers of arguments. 02:04:34 which doesn't matter much to me. 02:04:59 shit 02:05:03 you can easily stuff a list of "arbitrary arguments" into the last parameter... which is essentially what most do. 02:10:47 * pikhq proposes that Fucktory support networking and file access. . . 02:16:40 functional. 02:16:48 hmmm... I'd rather do this with befunge actually... 02:16:55 Bah. 02:16:59 * CakeProphet has never actually liked brainfuck -GASP- 02:17:07 Make it a superset of Dimenisfuck. 02:17:25 Add in parts of the Befunge command set. 02:17:33 * pikhq is t3h evil 02:17:50 I've written one of the most important pieces of software in history. 02:18:00 that would basically be like.... a rail-ish befungefuck 02:18:14 spam bot? 02:18:26 CakeProphet: A functional multithreaded befungefuck. 02:19:25 I still like befunge more than bf... it's FUN. It's a spatial system with a stack... that's just great. 02:19:31 * oerjan diagnoses GregorR with megalomania and gets out the straightjacket. 02:19:35 Fine. 02:19:40 Dimensifuck with a stack. 02:19:44 like electric wiring... with like a weird stack. 02:19:50 Voila; you've got Funge. 02:20:03 Well, n-dimensional Funge. 02:20:21 functional OO befunge!!! 02:20:25 oerjan: You don't understand. 02:20:29 oerjan: This is significant. 02:20:31 with network support, file access, and concurency. 02:20:31 This is ... 02:20:35 The Order of Urinals emulator. 02:21:23 No no, I understand perfectly. I am here to help, after all. Now just put your arm in here... 02:21:39 Order of Urinals? 02:22:01 pikhq: Given a number of arrival times and wee times for a number of men, and an arrangement of urinals, one can predict with almost 100% certainty which urinals each man will go to. 02:22:19 I'm trying to figure out if I can turn that into a rudimentary computer X-P 02:22:21 I. . . You. . . 02:22:26 Hahah. 02:24:57 CakeProphet: I agree about BF versus BF 02:26:21 * CakeProphet dies of laughter. 02:26:28 oh god... 02:26:33 that's brilliantly hilarious. 02:27:35 * CakeProphet gets to work on that oracle machine pikhq seems to be baffled at. 02:28:38 What sort of oracle? 02:34:06 the 2 + 2 thing 02:34:10 that constable uses 02:35:18 Ah. 02:38:14 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night."). 02:40:23 * SimonRC lolololololols at the ST:TNG plot generator: 02:40:30 "Whlist on leave Captain Picard starts de-aging rapidly when the Enterprise encounters some kind of spacetime rift thingy which is in fact Wesley's fault—as well as Q which pisses them about for fun and affects the entire ship, throws the ship thousands of light years off course, and depletes the shields to 5% while Wesley is precocious so Riker delivers a phaser blast, which means everything turns out okay, though Picard has had to deal with children. 02:40:37 You could swear it was real. 02:40:38 http://www.bargaintuan.com/sttngplotgen/ 02:48:05 Oh come on ... this HAS to be TC :P 02:48:08 [OoU] 02:56:17 "Imagine the heartaches / Of diplomatic attaches / When the wind detaches / Their false moustaches" :-) 02:59:21 erm.. 02:59:28 emacs stopped... detecting my capslock. 02:59:31 how bizzare 03:09:52 Hmm 03:10:05 Im thinking logfuck might not need dup to be turing complete 03:10:33 it needs dupdog! 03:11:06 ']' can become '[11g]>]<' or something like that 03:11:43 brainfuck -> logfuck, that is 03:12:05 I usually don't worry about Turing completeness.... some of the more interesting languages out there are finite-state and cellular automatons. 03:14:31 Some cellular automatons are Turing complete. 03:14:46 The Game of Life and Wireworld are good examples. 03:15:29 well yeah... since they're not mutually exclusive terms. 03:15:35 (in both of them, a Turing-complete system has been designed. . . Life has a Turing machine, Wireworld has an OISC system (it's instruction is MOVE)) 03:16:43 I'd still like OoU to be TC :P 03:16:52 I don't think it is, though ;) 03:17:34 -!- wooby has joined. 03:19:34 Unfortunately, I don't even really know where to start on writing a OoU program ... 03:19:44 What's OoU? 03:19:46 oooh 03:19:51 order of urinal 03:19:59 well... it depends on how many urinals we're talking 03:20:21 I had to explain urinal ettiquette to a girl the other day 03:20:23 Any finite number in any sensible arrangement. 03:20:25 and hell, if something as rudementary as LIFE is Turing complete... I'd imagine OoU could be too. 03:20:34 it's mostly implied etiquette. 03:20:42 It's programmed into every man. 03:20:49 And I determined these rules for my emulator: 03:20:56 1) Farthest from any neighbor. 03:21:00 2) Fewest neighbors. 03:21:05 3) Closest 03:21:37 Farthest is not always the best, in a situation with lots of urinals 03:21:52 (Though I wrote it such that I could write men with different roles) 03:22:13 bsmntbombdood: I could put a limit on farthest easily *shrugs* 03:22:43 The Shy Man, The Lazy Man, and the Claustophobic. 03:22:55 determines priority of which to achieve first. :D 03:23:14 \-| |-/ \-| |-/ 03:23:28 I was thinking: Lazy (closest first), creepy (most neighbors, closest to neighbors), lonely (tries to be close, but still one urinal between) 03:24:58 However, I think I'd like to try to find TC with only the standard rules. 03:26:07 yeah [11g]>]< doesn't work 03:26:54 obviously 03:35:07 you could use each block of three urinals as morse code. 03:35:29 at the end of the program... each three urinals stands for a character. 03:44:40 call/cc makes no sense 03:52:34 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 03:59:44 Hm 04:00:15 I think I need one more factor to make OoU TC ... wee schedules. Right now there's no capacity for looping. 04:12:15 bsmntbombdood: yes it does 04:12:22 quite simple once you understand it. 04:16:16 I think I can implement cat in this O_O 04:22:56 SimonRC: Which I don't 04:24:40 -!- wooby has quit. 04:24:46 -!- wooby has joined. 04:28:17 * bsmntbombdood likes how SICP says that for,while loops are mere abstractions 04:30:12 GregorR, if your output is the data itself converted to characters... a NOP would be the cat program. 04:30:42 I envisioning it working a lot like a string-rewriting language... but without explicitly rewriting and with multiple symbols for each character 04:31:50 -!- CakeProphet has changed nick to SevenInchBread. 04:32:14 String rewriting 04:32:16 * SimonRC goes to bed 04:33:37 ...I hate parsing. 04:33:44 at least initially.. 04:33:48 semantics are fun though 04:33:54 but the initial parsing out tokens sucks bawls. 05:00:13 -!- SevenInchBread has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 05:31:29 I was thinking a special "output" urinal which would output a bit: 1 if time >= 10, 0 otherwise. 06:22:22 -!- calamari has joined. 06:24:27 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:27:30 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:30:56 -!- sebbu has joined. 13:01:37 -!- wooby has quit. 13:47:58 -!- jix__ has joined. 13:48:53 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix. 13:50:34 -!- calamari has joined. 14:54:27 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 15:47:27 -!- tgwizard has joined. 15:49:21 oh no! 15:49:25 bsmnt bot is gone! 15:49:45 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 15:50:18 foo 15:51:14 ~exec print >> sys.stdout, "foo" 15:51:15 foo 16:23:31 gah 16:23:40 combinatory logic makes no sense 16:24:01 SENSELESS! 16:40:19 -!- FabioNET has joined. 17:07:36 -!- FabioNET has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 17:10:53 -!- FabioNET has joined. 18:20:33 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:34:33 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:53:41 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:00:36 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:18:37 -!- ihope has joined. 21:20:05 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:39:19 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 21:39:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:44:59 The problem with cloaks is that you can't collect them or anything. 21:47:27 Unless I can get tapthru/resident/pdpc/supporter/active/ihope or something. 21:47:46 Or tapthru/resident/pdpc/supporter/active/unaffiliated/ihope. 21:50:08 Wireworld is not Turing-complete unless you have an unbounded starting pattern. 21:50:49 Indeed. 21:51:01 ? 21:51:16 * oerjan is reading yesterday's logs 21:52:23 However, that can still be interesting for cellular automata. The rule 110 1D-automaton is the same way at least for the known construction. 21:52:43 what do you mean unbounded starting pattern? 21:53:36 Wireworld patterns cannot grow, so to have infinite memory you need some kind of infinite initial pattern. 21:55:49 ah yeah 21:56:35 (Rule 110 patterns can grow leftwards however, so it may be possible in that case although yet unknown) 21:58:12 Hmmmmmmmmmmm, that has some implications in terms of OoU too ... could still be a BSM though. 21:58:23 well, i think it's turing complete if it's capability can be increased with trivial changes 21:59:01 i mean, changes the system itself could theoretically implement 21:59:14 *changes that could be implemented on the system itself 21:59:25 -!- tgwizard has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:00:16 For it to be TC, you'd need to be able to use a recursive algorithm that could feasibly take unlimited memory. 22:29:57 -!- FabioNET has quit ("notte ragassuoli"). 22:34:29 GregorR: wha? 22:34:57 WireWorld is not TC, because you can't implement an algorithm that takes unbounded memory. 22:36:03 Ooh I misread 22:36:07 I thought you were talking to me 22:36:21 apparently my irc client highlights on "BSM" 22:37:14 GregorR: erm, it should be easy enought to construct a WW TM with infinite tape. 22:37:27 you can't? 22:38:54 why are you whining about the fact a ww computer need more memory to be able to do more, are you saying assembly isn't tc? 22:39:07 *needs 22:44:43 If assembly doesn't have infinite memory, it's not Turing-complete. 22:45:00 Nothing is turing complete 22:45:18 Nothing in the universe is Turing-complete. 22:45:24 yeah 22:45:47 Unless, that is, the universe is infinite and you can build something that'll never break down. 22:46:51 Building such a thing will probably be very hard until very near the heat death of the universe, and I don't know whether such a thing could do anything after its heat death. 22:53:11 :-P 22:53:12 "It takes N Prolog programmers to change a lightbulb." "N=1" "N=2" "N=3" "N=4" "N=5" "N=6" ... etc. 22:53:15 "It takes N Prolog programmers to change a lightbulb." "N=1" "N=2" "N=3" "N=4" "N=5" "N=6" ... etc. 22:53:19 :-P 22:53:21 erm, oops 22:53:32 of course you could say any abstract language is tc, which means most languages, but you just cant create an interpreter for them 22:55:01 A language can be TC, an implementation cannot. 22:55:16 Assembly is not TC, mainly because it's tied so thoroughly to the processor. 22:55:25 Higher level languages are sometimes TC. 22:55:57 oklopol: *any* abstract language? 22:56:32 any abstract language that is turing complete is theoretically turing complete is the gist of my mumbling 22:56:34 :) 22:56:54 exactly what GregorR said 22:56:58 word to word 22:56:59 you tautologist you 22:57:01 that's what i said 22:58:14 So, to change the topic radically, what base language should we use for our esoteric programming language? 22:58:50 :) 22:58:54 itself? 22:59:13 s/programming language/operating system/, sheesh 22:59:23 The Big Kahooey is that it's self-modifying and extensible and virtualizable. 22:59:31 ("Kahooey" is Spanish for "criterion".) 23:01:20 * oerjan thinks ihope should fire his Spanish teacher. 23:01:37 oerjan: good idea! :-) 23:01:57 I nominate Smurf. 23:04:05 Befunge 23:04:26 Wonderful. 23:04:38 I take it Befunge is virtualizable. 23:04:57 OST, Funge98. It has the same big-O running times as everything else. 23:05:20 OST? 23:05:34 Funge98 can manage a 4G * 4G space. Make the whole disk into swap! 23:05:37 OST=cheese 23:05:42 On Second Thoughts 23:05:52 Pff, make it RAM. 23:06:06 Any Befunge variant should be wonderful enough. 23:06:20 With whole-disk swap, you don't need any file-handling. 23:06:34 Mmh. 23:06:47 but a Bef98 address fits nicely into a 64-bit word. 23:06:48 You need to separate RAM from disk space, don't you? 23:07:10 no, there si nothing to stop you making the whoel disk into swap. Some "real" OSes do that. 23:07:15 Well, hey, it'd be a base. Let's not have any fancy features that can't be removed. 23:07:37 We'd build the operating system on top of Funge. 23:07:37 Nothing wrong with memmapping everything. 23:07:46 Anybody want my Order of Urinals emulator? :-P 23:08:15 Do real *platforms* do that? 23:08:37 Surely we could build this swap stuff on top of the Funge. 23:09:50 ihope: yeah, real platforms do that. I will try and find an example 23:10:09 And, uh, I guess the Order of Urinals thing sounds interesting. 23:10:46 Also, what actual reason is there to build this stuff into the platform? 23:11:40 "whole disk swap"...like virtual? 23:12:04 Just the whole disk memory mapped. 23:12:04 *into 23:12:28 On a 64-bit platform or a 32-bit platform 20 years ago that'd be a perfectly good way to get to the HD. 23:12:51 yeah 23:13:17 thought so 23:13:23 well, unununium? 23:13:38 What if you have a weird hard drive? 23:13:41 Or multiple hard drives? 23:13:48 Or no hard drives at all? 23:13:56 os is for that 23:14:09 Hmm? 23:14:27 it takes care of the type of your hardware 23:14:31 The OS should be able to detect it and memory map everything properly. 23:14:59 GregorR always think what i'm thinking and say what i can't get out :\ 23:15:03 *thinks 23:15:04 ^^ 23:15:09 *says 23:15:12 lol 23:15:15 my s has a flow 23:15:18 *flaw 23:15:21 okay 23:15:26 Suuuuuuuuuuure 23:15:26 i shut up now :O 23:15:37 really! 23:15:41 it's screwedx 23:17:17 GregorR, can i have the emulator? 23:17:23 OoU 23:18:08 Oh, sure - it's in D, so I presume you want a binary? (What OS?) 23:18:17 windows 23:18:21 xP 23:18:37 Uno momento. 23:19:09 aha! "SpeedOS" 23:20:00 http://www.informatik.uni-ulm.de/rs/projekte/monads/PersistentVMemoryE.html 23:20:53 also, "Unununium" 23:21:39 OLD 23:21:51 i said that a while ago haha :) 23:22:21 http://www.codu.org/oou-2007-01-24-win.zip 23:22:26 thx 23:25:40 wow 23:25:45 that's so cool :O 23:25:48 lol 23:25:54 Where "cool" = "ridiculous" :-P 23:26:00 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 23:26:18 how do you do console non-appending output? 23:26:39 I just clear the screen between displays 23:26:43 ah 23:27:06 but, really, cool 23:27:08 hmm 23:27:17 do they come and og randomly? 23:27:19 go 23:27:48 Yeah - I'm considering writing a proper event list format, so you can make event lists. Then comes output, etc. 23:28:07 good 23:28:16 too hard to do anything if it's all random 23:28:24 "Too hard" == "impossible" :P 23:28:28 yeah 23:28:58 just delays between peeers and the amount of pee in their baggies 23:30:17 "baggies" 23:30:50 you can supply me with the right term if you can 23:31:12 no matter how tautological that is 23:33:07 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("Leaving"). 23:36:15 "bladder" 23:36:56 i was looking for that 23:37:13 but i settled with baggies since it didn't come right out 23:39:33 hmm, what are the rules? 23:39:37 in OoU 23:40:16 i'm pretty sure i'm not supposed to be this fascinated about watching little ascii men pee :\ 23:40:37 Hahahah 23:40:53 In order of preference: 23:41:02 1) Farthest from any other used urinals. 23:41:07 2) Fewest neighbors. 23:41:12 3) Closest 23:42:30 toilets and sinks not currently in use? 23:42:45 Fewest neighbors? 23:42:48 meaning? 23:43:03 Only urinals are in the algorithm. 23:43:16 you could add those later too 23:43:23 Fewest neighbors == for example, in this arrangement: @|U|@|U it would prefer the far right one. 23:43:37 ah of course 23:43:40 Or in this arrangement: U|U|@|U|U|U|@ it would prefer the far left one. 23:44:12 but, if there's a wall between them, they shouldn't care 23:44:55 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 23:44:57 i mean, they don't need as big a distance as possible, because when eye contact is avoided for certain, the distance is as good as infinite 23:45:12 right? 23:46:24 In real life, yes. 23:46:27 In the simulator, no. 23:46:29 why not? 23:46:36 * GregorR == lazy :P 23:46:45 nah, it's trivial 23:47:07 well, okay, finding the best possible is then not, probably 23:47:12 Exactly. 23:47:19 and, that would eliminate the possibility of tc 23:47:29 Not necessarily, but it sure wouldn't help. 23:48:50 in real life the guys make solutions based on what they see of course, so they woulnd't turn right back out if all urinals are taken either 23:49:02 This _could_ be fixed simply by replacing "|" with " ", you know. 23:49:24 or 23:49:55 okay, i find this lack of words a bit frustratingf 23:49:57 *-f 23:50:15