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01:18:36 <Insineratehymn> hey EgoBot
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01:20:10 <EgoBot> :( Aw, I thought I had a friend.
01:22:53 <graue> you did
01:22:57 <graue> just not anymore
01:24:03 <bsmntbombdood> heh
01:24:25 <bsmnt_bot> I have lots of friends!
01:44:21 <bsmntbombdood> a prize of infinite money!!
01:44:38 <bsmntbombdood> $1 the first day, 1/2 the next, 1/3, 1/4...
01:44:41 <bsmntbombdood> :P
02:08:05 <graue> how did you win that?
02:08:43 <bsmntbombdood> i didn't
02:08:45 <bsmntbombdood> it was a joke
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02:12:03 <lament> i wonder for how much money you could sell that prize
02:12:09 <lament> quite a lot, probably
02:13:25 <lament> or maybe not
02:13:32 <lament> you get 6 bucks the first year
02:13:52 <lament> then only 70 cents the next year
02:14:48 <lament> that's not all that great
02:15:00 <lament> (as compared with the market)
02:17:33 <bsmntbombdood> yeah
02:19:09 <lament> the market gets you infinite money faster :)
02:27:46 <graue> isn't 11.7% interest pretty good?
02:28:41 <lament> it is
02:28:53 <lament> but it's not real 11.7% interestt
02:28:59 <lament> it's only like that the first year :)
02:29:37 <graue> how much do you get the third year?
02:29:41 <lament> real interest would correspond to a sequence with increasing terms. The market even outperforms some of those.
02:29:48 <lament> about 30 cents.
02:30:17 <bsmntbombdood> after the 3rd year you have $7.575
02:30:51 <fizzie> And if you live 70 years, you almost but not quite get to $11. Yay.
02:31:01 <bsmntbombdood> after 20 years it's 9.4728
02:31:20 <bsmntbombdood> 100 years, $11 
02:32:22 <lament> even if the prize was a dollar a day, it would still be outperformed by a small initial investment
02:32:32 <bsmntbombdood> 1000 years, $13
02:33:38 <lament> therefore the "value" of the prize is smaller than the value of the investment
02:33:52 <bsmntbombdood> 10,000 years, $15.6
02:34:31 <lament> we can actually calculate how much the "prize" is worth
02:34:50 <lament> under specific market conditions
02:34:50 <bsmntbombdood> what do you mean?
02:35:09 <lament> how much money would it make sense to pay for it
02:35:16 <lament> as opposed to just invest that money
02:35:31 <bsmntbombdood> ...it wouldn't
02:36:20 <lament> well no
02:36:25 <lament> it's clearly worth more than a dollar
02:36:45 <lament> i mean no
02:36:53 <lament> nevermind
02:36:59 <lament> i mean it's not :)
02:37:10 <graue> sure it is
02:37:28 <graue> pay a dollar for it and you'd have $1.50 the next day, that's worth it
02:39:29 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.mathbin.net/8782
02:39:41 <bsmntbombdood> where x is the amount worth it to pay
02:41:55 <bsmntbombdood> or something link that
02:41:57 <lament> graue: oh yeah, that's true
02:42:26 <lament> graue: if you can do that repeatedly, and buy unlimited prizes a day, that outperforms the market easily :)
02:42:40 <graue> yeah, there you go
02:49:23 <bsmntbombdood> after 2 days, the prize is worth $1.49
02:49:36 <bsmntbombdood> at 10% per year
02:50:17 <bsmntbombdood> after 1 year, it's worth $5.86
02:53:00 <bsmntbombdood> hmm
02:53:08 <bsmntbombdood> 5 years only $4.9
02:56:30 <lament> hehehe
02:56:33 <lament> find the peak price
02:56:59 <bsmntbombdood> somewhere between 2 and 5 years
02:57:34 <lament> i'm surprised it ever gets to more than 5 bucks
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03:03:24 <bsmntbombdood> looks like 2 years
03:03:26 <bsmntbombdood> about
03:03:58 <bsmntbombdood> i'm just trying random stuff here
03:04:47 <lament> maybe it's e years :)
03:05:51 <bsmntbombdood> nope
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03:06:00 <bsmntbombdood> e years is $5.69
03:06:14 <bsmntbombdood> 2 years is $5.87
03:06:47 <GreaseMonkey> 2*$5.87=e*5.69
03:06:54 <GreaseMonkey> 2*$5.87/5.69=e
03:07:05 <GreaseMonkey> solved
03:07:18 <lament> thanks
03:07:21 <lament> you're a genius
03:07:33 <GreaseMonkey> ah whoops
03:07:39 <GreaseMonkey> 2*5.69/5.87=e
03:07:43 <bsmntbombdood> except, no
03:07:58 <GreaseMonkey> 1.938671209540034 years
03:08:05 <GreaseMonkey> what was it for?
03:08:27 <lament> GreaseMonkey: 'e' is Euler's constant :)
03:08:43 <lament> GreaseMonkey: and the relationship is highly non-linear
03:08:51 <bsmntbombdood> GreaseMonkey: a harmonic series prize
03:08:54 <GreaseMonkey> k
03:08:59 <bsmntbombdood> GreaseMonkey: compared to investing the money
03:09:21 <GreaseMonkey> you never know, it might come in handy
03:09:38 <GreaseMonkey> just in case you have something that says $5.87 for 2 years
03:09:53 <GreaseMonkey> and you only want 1.938671209540034 years
03:10:01 <GreaseMonkey> so you know it's $5.69
03:12:45 <bsmntbombdood> uuuuh
03:25:35 <bsmntbombdood> I'm going to make a killing selling these for 6 dollars
03:29:48 <lament> assuming you can actually invest at 10%
03:30:53 <bsmntbombdood> yeah :P
03:31:53 <lament> (for the rest of eternity)
03:33:49 <bsmntbombdood> ooh
03:33:53 <bsmntbombdood> mistake
03:34:01 <bsmntbombdood> we have to invest the return
03:36:00 <bsmntbombdood> the 1, 1/2, 1/3...
03:36:06 <bsmntbombdood> dunno how to do that
04:01:56 * Sgeo created http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/SpySheriff
04:02:14 <GreaseMonkey> oh, you like uncyc, huh?
04:02:25 <Sgeo> yep
04:04:55 <GreaseMonkey> that's a good article, made me lol
04:05:08 <Sgeo> ty
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05:09:57 <bsmntbombdood> \sum_{n=1}^{x} 1/x is pretty well aproximated by .79 + .95*ln(x)
05:11:32 <GreaseMonkey> hey, what lang should i use for adding custom bot messages to GreaseBot
05:12:05 <bsmntbombdood> what language is it written in?
05:22:11 <bsmntbombdood> actually, it's pretty far off for big numbers
05:22:22 <bsmntbombdood> guess it grows a little faster than ln
05:25:11 <bsmntbombdood> ha
05:25:21 <bsmntbombdood> off by x/c
05:26:29 <GreaseMonkey> um, GreaseBot is coded in C
05:26:50 <bsmntbombdood> logfuck
05:27:24 <bsmntbombdood> dc
05:27:25 <GreaseMonkey> hmm, i'll look into it
05:27:49 <GreaseMonkey> ah, yes, good idea, VERY good idea
05:28:02 <bsmntbombdood> what?
05:29:28 <GreaseMonkey> dc
05:30:17 <bsmntbombdood> dc rocks
05:31:16 <GreaseMonkey> i cud build my own lang tho
05:31:39 <GreaseMonkey> like miniscript but using single-symbol stuff and more strin-oriented
05:32:51 <GreaseMonkey> Apparently, %-1% gives it %1%% at %2%
05:32:55 <GreaseMonkey> stuff like that
05:33:11 <GreaseMonkey> say = %1%
05:33:46 <GreaseMonkey> act = $01ACTION %1%$01
05:33:56 <GreaseMonkey> wait
05:34:14 <GreaseMonkey> act = PRIVMSG %-1% $01ACTION %1%$01
05:34:17 <GreaseMonkey> better
06:27:35 <GreaseMonkey> afk, food, pulling GreaseBot offline
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08:59:42 <GreaseMonkey> gnight
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11:45:46 * sebbu search the apprentice, from lewis libby
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13:06:41 <ais523> !ps d
13:06:43 <EgoBot> 1 ais523: daemon ul bf
13:06:46 <EgoBot> 2 ais523: daemon deadfish funge93
13:06:48 <EgoBot> 3 ais523: ps
13:07:26 <ais523> !help
13:07:29 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
13:07:32 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
13:10:50 <ais523> EgoBot needs an HQ9+ interpreter
13:12:36 * ais523 googles HQ9+
13:12:42 <ais523> Hey, there's a language called HQ9+-
13:12:57 <ais523> - causes a different error depending on which command it's adjacent to
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13:15:08 <ais523> and checking http://99-bottles-of-beer.net it seems that there's a language that can do 99 bottles of beer in even fewer characters than HQ9+
13:17:55 <oklopol> yeah in 99 the empty program does that iirc
13:18:57 <ais523> as does every other program
13:19:43 <ais523> What's confusing me now is there seems to be quite a bit of HQ9+ discussion in news:perl.perl6.internals
13:22:42 <oklopol> :D
13:23:09 <oklopol> are they going to add HQ9 capabilities in perl?
13:25:26 <ais523> It's not entirely clear from the newsgroup messages
14:06:27 * ais523 has just written an HQ9+ interpreter in Thutu
14:06:42 <ais523> because I couldn't find enough HQ9+ interpreters in esoteric programming languages
14:06:56 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/raw/387587
14:07:45 <ais523> I even made sure it had a genuine accumulator (although not one that does anything useful, naturally)
14:08:23 <ais523> but I'd really prefer an HQ9+ interpreter in a language that Egobot has
14:08:30 <ais523> so that we can daemon it
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15:54:51 * ais523 has written a Forte interpreter that seems to handle LET properly
15:55:02 <ais523> I haven't programmed any of the other commands yet, though
15:55:10 <ais523> nor tested it with tricky things like continuation lines
15:55:39 <oerjan> right... i'm still bogged down in parsing, it seems.
15:55:57 <ais523> My interpreter doesn't really parse the input at all
15:56:18 <ais523> I wrote it by extending Thutu to have arithmetic built-in, and then using the new language
15:56:39 <ais523> so it uses regexps to parse commands on-the-fly at the last possible moment
15:57:00 <ais523> q
15:57:10 <oerjan> how do you keep track of assigned numbers?
15:57:24 <ais523> I use a list of redefinition pairs
15:57:34 <ais523> the clever part is that the list can redefine later in the list
15:57:47 <ais523> so for instance, (10)(8) means that 10 is redefined to 8
15:58:07 <ais523> and if later 8 is redefined to 12, I have (8)(12),(10)(8)
15:58:17 <ais523> which the program automatically changes to (8)(12),(10)(12)
15:58:57 <ais523> Except, as it's Thutu, I use a % sign in front of every punctuation mark to avoid ambiguities, so it looks like %(8%)%(12%)%,%(10%)%(12%)
15:59:10 <ais523> which is much the same but harder to read in the Perl debugger I'm using to test this
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16:03:15 <ais523> Argh! When I test a line with a colon in, the length of the memory increases exponentially with lots of duplicates of the program
16:03:19 <ais523> I'm sure that's not meant to happen
16:03:39 <oerjan> i should think not.
16:04:23 <oerjan> i noticed a discussion in the logs about a $1/n prize...
16:04:40 <ais523> I was reading that in the logs too
16:05:30 <ais523> It's related to a similar problem I was wondering about: how much money would you pay for a St. Petersburg return?
16:06:05 <oerjan> I believe that to find the current value given interest p, you need to sum 1/n * 1/(1+p/100)^n
16:06:17 <ais523> (Flip a coin. If you flip tails, you win $2. Otherwise, flip again; with tails you get $4, with heads flip again, then you get $8 for tails on the third flip, $16 for tails on the fourth flip, etc.)
16:06:37 <oerjan> which is a tailor series.
16:06:48 <oerjan> eh, i'm still talking about the log problem.
16:07:20 <ais523> crossed messages can be a problem in IRC
16:07:29 <ais523> even though they're delivered so fast
16:07:34 <ais523> because you have to spend time typing
16:09:35 <oerjan> sum x^n/n = integral of sum x^(n-1) = integral of 1/(1-x) = -log|1-x|, with some fixing of indices.
16:10:32 * ais523 has found and fixed the problem
16:10:48 <oerjan> ah.
16:10:50 <ais523> Thutu's so conducive to writing multithreaded programs in, it's even possible to do it by accident
16:10:59 <oerjan> heh
16:11:13 <ais523> I managed to create a forkbomb by mistake
16:11:51 <oerjan> that st petersburg return obviously has infinite expectation in dollars.
16:12:21 <ais523> yep, but you wouldn't pay $1000000 to get the St. Petersburg payoff in return, would you?
16:13:11 <ais523> partly because there's no chance that the person offering you the bet would own enough dollars to pay you off if you flipped 1000000 heads in a row 
16:13:28 <ais523> and if they can't afford it, the expectation would be less than $1000000
16:13:41 <oerjan> Assuming they could afford it:
16:14:00 <oerjan> you need to take into account that money itself has diminishing value.
16:14:43 <ais523> I agree; the payoff, even though it's potentially very large, isn't really worth all that much
16:14:55 <oerjan> the inflation would be immense.
16:15:18 <ais523> s
16:15:36 <ais523> (Sorry, I keep sending debugger commands to my IRC client rather than my Perl debugger by mistake)
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16:21:03 <oerjan> Wow, Mark C Carroll is showing Thutu as this week's pathological language!
16:21:14 <jix> ais523: i just sent svn commands into irc (different channel)
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16:23:04 <graue> i guess i need to catch up on the thutu craze
16:27:42 <oerjan> graue: you need to fix the logo on the esolang wiki.
16:28:32 <ais523> graue: the logo, and the 'public domain' image, have gone wrong during the upgrade. The other thing that changed during the upgrade was the syntax for enlarging images, but I've fixed that myself.
16:33:50 <ais523> oerjan: Thanks for pointing me to that Mark C Carroll page! I don't think I'd have found it otherwise.
16:35:58 <oerjan> you're welcome
16:51:55 <graue> hey ais523: i couldn't find anything on mediawiki.org about the captchas you say are in mediawiki 1.9
16:52:41 <ais523> I know they're implementable somehow; after all, I've come across those capchas before (on Wiktionary as it happens).
16:52:51 * ais523 looks for the MediaWiki CAPCHAs
16:54:10 <ais523> It seems to be a well-supported extension originally in 1.6, but it was updated recently
16:54:37 <ais523> Look on Meta rather than mediawiki.org: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ConfirmEdit_extension
16:56:13 <ais523> yep, I've just tested it. It's definitely ConfirmEdit that's being used on the Wikimedia sites, and it's set to trigger when an anon adds an external link
16:56:38 <graue> cool, thanks
16:58:41 <ais523> the description of the extension's _meant_ to be on mediawiki.org, but they haven't got round to moving it yet
17:03:07 <oerjan> ais523: i see no mention anywhere of that multithreading you mentioned...
17:03:23 <ais523> No, it's not a language feature, it sort of comes out from the way the language works
17:03:42 <oerjan> ?
17:03:50 <ais523> The most practical way to program is to use markers (%% is one I often use, because % has no regexp meaning) to mark what you're doing
17:04:06 <ais523> but if the marker accidentally gets duplicated, the program starts acting from both points
17:04:17 <oerjan> ah
17:04:33 <ais523> and often, the behaviour from the markers ends up more-or-less interleaved, like it does in a multithread program
17:05:12 <ais523> Because Thue is non-deterministic, duplicating the data string in Thue would always lead to an effectively multithread program
17:05:27 <ais523> In Thutu, which is deterministic, it just _usually/
17:05:35 <ais523> leads to an effectively multithread program
17:05:45 * ais523 wonders why they had to put newline next to backspace
17:06:06 <oerjan> pure evil
17:07:07 <oerjan> btw, does I/O happen in the main loop if you use < and replacement, or if you use > or step-off-end?
17:09:32 <oerjan> ais523: ^
17:09:32 <ais523> < doesn't cause I/O to happen if used in the main loop (like a replacement, it steps back to the top). > does.
17:10:28 <oerjan> right.  It is a bit confusing between iterations of the main loop and iterations of the program.
17:10:41 <ais523> The main loop is the program, pretty much
17:10:59 <oerjan> no.
17:11:13 <oerjan> that's exactly the point where they are different.
17:11:54 <oerjan> the I/O loop is _not_ the same as the main @ loop, but contains it.
17:12:10 <ais523> The I/O is sort of an extra line outside the program
17:12:13 <ais523> that you never see
17:12:54 <ais523> oerjan: I see what you mean now when you say the main loop isn't the program
17:13:05 <oerjan> the reason i'm mentioning this is because i suspect Mark CC misunderstood it.
17:13:09 <ais523> The input program is in its' own implied @ loop
17:13:26 <ais523> but the I/O is outside that in some other loop (a /=9/! loop?)
17:14:07 <oerjan> right.
17:15:16 <oerjan> (or at least he made it even more ambiguous.)
17:18:16 <ais523> This sort of thing makes me glad I defined Thutu in terms of a reference interpreter
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18:35:38 <ais523> Yay, Esolang now has CAPCHAs to help against the spam. Thanks, graue!
18:39:59 <UpTheDownstair> hah
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23:01:33 <sebbu> durée 12h43m07s, cpu time 54min53s <-- pour défrag 134go
23:08:24 <lament> suuure.
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