←2007-04-27 2007-04-28 2007-04-29→ ↑2007 ↑all
00:01:08 -!- Tweek888 has joined.
00:03:52 <Tweek888> could someone slap fax and cmeme with a trout?
00:03:56 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:04:07 <fax> I could
00:04:11 <fax> but why?
00:04:17 <Tweek888> texting
00:04:19 <Tweek888> testing*
00:04:38 <Tweek888> and for lack of creativity.
00:05:23 <pikhq> oerjan: It's Eratosthene's sieve, indeed.
00:05:53 <pikhq> And that suggestion, while not making a difference as far as the algorithm is concerned, makes the code shorter. . .
00:07:01 <Tweek888> do I just say functions in plain english?
00:07:19 <pikhq> . . . Scratch that, it doesn't work with <=.
00:07:34 <pikhq> Wihtout, that is.
00:08:10 <oerjan> it should make a difference, because you are otherwise using the element a[10000] which doesn't exist
00:08:15 <pikhq> . . . Oh.
00:08:26 <pikhq> I ended up using = instead of <.
00:08:51 <pikhq> I think that why it works is pure chance. . .
00:09:04 <pikhq> There we go.
00:09:06 <oerjan> in principle the old version has a memory access error
00:09:10 <pikhq> m(){n;f(h=1;h<b;d=1);f(c=2;c<b;c++)i(e){p("%i\n",c);f(h=c*c;h<b;h+=c)g=0;}}
00:09:14 <pikhq> Yeah.
00:11:15 <pikhq> New version up.
00:13:43 <Tweek888> please print pi to the ten thousandths place.
00:13:44 <Tweek888> ;/
00:14:20 <pikhq> 10basePi.
00:14:43 <Tweek888> tricky.
00:16:14 <Tweek888> please enumerate pi to the ten thousandths place and newline say :O
00:16:47 <pikhq> 3.1415
00:17:09 <lament> :O
00:17:24 <Tweek888> this is fun
00:17:25 <Tweek888> :D
00:20:02 <Tweek888> print currently playing song from media player
00:20:23 <lament> error: term 'media player' undefined
00:21:35 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:22:21 <pikhq> Relient K - For The Moments I Feel Faint - The Anatomy of the Tongue in Cheek. 2001.
00:22:57 <pikhq> Who said anything about it being *your* media player?
00:23:44 <Tweek888> no one
00:24:20 <Tweek888> print what user Tweek888 is thinking
00:24:49 <lament> sex sex sex sex sex drugs sex
00:24:53 <pikhq> ERROR: libpsychic.so.1 cannot be found.
00:25:03 <Tweek888> lament won
00:25:06 <Tweek888> :/
00:27:11 <bsmntbombdood> lib sexy chic?
00:27:47 <lament> must be
00:32:29 <pikhq> ERROR: libsexychic.so.1 can be found; psychic != sexychic.
00:36:19 <bsmntbombdood> but they only have a levenshtein distance of 3
00:38:05 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
00:38:31 <Tweek888> please stop
00:38:35 <Tweek888> please hammertime
00:43:20 -!- Tweek888 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:46:05 -!- Robdgreat has joined.
00:46:15 <Robdgreat> was sappening
00:46:39 <oerjan> psychic irp
00:46:41 <fax> crazy stuffff
00:47:09 <oerjan> or possibly irp spyware
00:48:38 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat").
00:49:17 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:49:52 <GregorR> YAAAAAAAAY!
00:50:03 <GregorR> My new DPlof interpreter can run PlofPlof properly!
00:50:08 <GregorR> No more deep recursion for me :P
00:51:40 * Robdgreat awards GregorR a Gregor Snax(tm)
00:51:54 <pikhq_> PlofPlof?
00:52:15 <pikhq_> Could you link to the D compiler again, please?
00:53:36 <GregorR> http://downloads.dsource.org/projects/tango/0.97/tango-0.97-forDSSS-gdc-i686-pc-linux-gnu-withDSSS-withGDC.sh
00:54:14 <GregorR> pikhq_: My intention is to use DPlof just to get Plof (the one in Plof) working. Then I'll make Plof target C (as well as interpretation), and bingo, CPlof.
00:54:32 <pikhq_> What does PlofPlof compile to now?
00:54:41 <pikhq_> (Just interpret?)
00:55:02 <lament> compiles to plof, obviously
00:55:02 <GregorR> It just parses now :P
00:55:06 <pikhq_> Ah.
00:55:11 <GregorR> It's not finished.
00:55:19 <GregorR> I had to leave it for a while because DPlof couldn't run it X-P
00:55:20 <pikhq_> I assume you wouldn't mind my help in PlofPlof?
00:55:28 <GregorR> Not in the least.
00:56:12 <GregorR> DPlof is damn slow, but like I said, it's temporary.
00:57:42 <pikhq_> builtins.d:31: module Stdout cannot read file 'tango/io/Stdout.d'
00:57:46 <pikhq_> Uh. . . Help?
00:58:12 <GregorR> How are you building it?
00:58:37 <GregorR> (Hint: The correct way is `dsss build`)
00:58:47 <pikhq_> Ah.
00:59:30 <pikhq_> Would it kill you to use standard build tools?
01:00:02 <GregorR> Whatever build tool you think is standard, it isn't for D.
01:01:11 <pikhq_> Um. . . You're not allowed to use make and autoconf?
01:01:14 <pikhq_> WTF?
01:01:23 <GregorR> Make and autoconf are the way they are because of limitations in C.
01:02:06 <GregorR> [Oh, and, no, autoconf does not work with D]
01:02:18 <pikhq_> Autoconf, not surprised; that is C-specific. . .
01:02:21 <pikhq_> But make?!?
01:02:29 <GregorR> Make is nothing-specific, and that's what's so bad about it.
01:02:36 <pikhq_> -_-'
01:02:38 <GregorR> Could I use make? Yes. But it would be a gigantic pain in the ass.
01:02:41 <oerjan> well make a dummy makefile then
01:02:57 <pikhq_> Make, a pain in the ass?
01:03:06 <pikhq_> . . . Oh.
01:03:15 <pikhq_> Looking at dsss.conf. Jebus, that's handy.
01:03:52 <GregorR> D has a more pure way of listing dependencies in source files.
01:03:59 <GregorR> As such, listing all source files in a Makefile is redundant.
01:04:23 <pikhq_> Now if only I could get the damned thing to build.
01:04:31 <GregorR> What's the issue?
01:04:42 <pikhq_> /tmp/ccdreAhw.s:7624: Error: suffix or operands invalid for `push'
01:04:42 <pikhq_> /tmp/ccdreAhw.s:7634: Error: suffix or operands invalid for `pop'
01:04:45 <pikhq_> Ad infinitum.
01:04:55 <GregorR> ... this is building dplof?
01:04:59 <pikhq_> Yes.
01:05:05 <GregorR> That's one weird error.
01:05:34 <GregorR> Could you try `dsss build -m32` ?
01:05:51 <pikhq_> Same.
01:06:06 <pikhq_> I get the feeling something weird is happening.
01:06:15 <GregorR> Hm. I'm thinking maybe that binary's gdc expects a 32-bit only ld.
01:06:24 <pikhq_> I'm thinking so.
01:06:48 <pikhq_> And I, in my stupidity, overwrote /usr/bin/gdc.
01:06:59 <GregorR> Heh ^^
01:07:43 <GregorR> I usually install stuff to /opt/whatever :)
01:07:48 <bsmntbombdood> why so many layers?
01:07:53 <pikhq_> You think I could get a binary tarball of Dplof?
01:07:57 <GregorR> Sure.
01:07:58 <GregorR> One sec.
01:08:01 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR> pikhq_: My intention is to use DPlof just to get Plof (the one in Plof) working. Then I'll make Plof target C (as well as interpretation), and bingo, CPlof.
01:08:12 <pikhq_> bsmntbombdood: That's called "Self-hosting".
01:08:24 <bsmntbombdood> I know, and it's a waste
01:08:33 <pikhq_> Lisp begs to differ.
01:08:58 <pikhq_> Even Brainfuck can self-host. Why not Plof?
01:08:59 <GregorR> That's a waste, how?
01:09:11 <bsmntbombdood> of time
01:09:18 <pikhq_> No, it's not.
01:09:30 <pikhq_> Damned useful, actually.
01:09:31 <bsmntbombdood> it _can_ do it, but that doesn't mean someone should write it all
01:09:43 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Compiling to C is quite useful.
01:09:48 <pikhq_> And I bet that Plof'd get more popularity if Dplof weren't a build requirement.
01:09:49 <bsmntbombdood> yes
01:09:52 <pikhq_> Err.
01:09:53 <pikhq_> D.
01:09:54 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: The fact that that gives me Plof in C for free is just a side-effect.
01:09:58 <bsmntbombdood> so just write a plof->c compiler
01:10:04 <pikhq_> He is.
01:10:10 <pikhq_> It just happens to be in Plof.
01:10:11 <bsmntbombdood> without a dplof of plofplof
01:11:13 <pikhq_> Dplof will be abandoned once Plof works.
01:11:30 <GregorR> pikhq_: http://www.codu.org/plof.tar.gz
01:11:36 <GregorR> Err
01:11:38 <GregorR> pikhq_: http://www.codu.org/dplof.tar.gz
01:13:09 <GregorR> Disclaimer: dplof may have (and probably does have) obscure bugs :)
01:13:46 <pikhq_> Like file IO segfaulting?
01:14:10 <GregorR> Errr? :P
01:14:15 <lament> plof looks pretty boring
01:14:37 <GregorR> Oh no, I am so offended, blah blah etc?
01:14:51 <lament> yeah
01:14:59 <lament> something like that
01:15:01 <lament> :)
01:16:14 <GregorR> pikhq_: I'm not seeing fileio segfaulting ...
01:16:32 <pikhq_> GregorR: It's probably an issue with multilib.
01:17:05 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+").
01:18:07 <pikhq_> . . . Except stdio works.
01:18:42 <GregorR> Heh :P
01:18:43 <pikhq_> Moral of the story: Dplof and x86_64 don't mix.
01:18:48 <GregorR> Foob.
01:19:02 <pikhq_> CPlof should be easier to get to mix, though.
01:19:51 <GregorR> Yuh.
01:19:55 <GregorR> That's part of the intention :)
01:21:43 * pikhq_ has the prom tomorrow. . . Whooo. . .
01:29:28 <bsmntbombdood> heh
01:29:38 <GregorR> I remember the prom ... I didn't go.
01:29:43 <GregorR> Best decision I ever made.
01:30:03 <bsmntbombdood> prom was last weekend at my school
01:30:52 <oerjan> should i put "prom" on my list of advantages to not being from the US? :)
01:31:25 <GregorR> Yes.
01:31:39 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR: what's wrong with prom?
01:31:47 <GregorR> What /isn't/?
01:33:25 <bsmntbombdood> i dunno...
01:33:53 <GregorR> Godawful music, annoying people, neverending social stigma, weeeeeeh.
01:34:33 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
01:34:55 <pikhq> Prom is, I assume, much better if you've got a date.
01:35:11 <pikhq> Like I do. . .
01:35:15 <GregorR> Heh
01:35:16 <bsmntbombdood> probably
01:35:25 <bsmntbombdood> why GregorR doesn't like it
01:35:39 <pikhq> If I didn't have a date, I'd not show up.
01:38:53 <GregorR> pikhq: You did get my /msg, right?
01:40:09 <pikhq> Obviously.
01:41:28 <pikhq> Mmkay. I see that the parser works well.
01:41:43 <pikhq> I'm not sure how to go from parser to compiler, but I'm sure it can be done.
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01:42:19 * pikhq honestly sucks at compiler design; basm is a fluke.
01:42:22 <GregorR> Well, there'll need to be a sizeable C runtime environment.
01:42:36 <pikhq> Or else some really weird-ass shit happening.
01:43:00 <pikhq> I could probably help with the C runtime ATM. . .
01:43:06 <GregorR> That'll take some fumbling.
01:43:06 <GregorR> The actual compilation should be as simple as putting functions in functions and turning everything else into the proper (inline) function calls.
01:43:20 <pikhq> Yeah.
01:43:58 <pikhq> I'd *like* to see a better way for Plof to access C functions than the current method. . . I assume that's planned after Plof runs?
01:44:05 <pikhq> cPlof, even.
01:44:22 <GregorR> Yeah, but I don't actually have any ideas for it.
01:45:01 <bsmntbombdood> typing seems like it would be hard
01:46:12 <Tweek888> please print the laplace transform of something
01:46:23 <pikhq> Perhaps make it a C++ interface?
01:46:39 <pikhq> Seems that C++ could possibly behave better with Plof.
01:46:51 <GregorR> Erm ... that seems unlikely :)
01:47:05 <pikhq> I didn't say *much* better. ;)
01:47:44 <pikhq> I *think* the best way to do it would probably involve a Plof<->C API, so the Plof interpreter or compiler could load libraries conforming to that API.
01:48:21 <pikhq> Probably end up having the API require that function names in the C code conform to the name-mangling scheme.
01:49:14 <oerjan> Tweek888: 0 -> 0
01:49:28 <oerjan> (always a safe bet with linear transforms)
01:50:05 <GregorR> pikhq: Name-mangling isn't very realistic in a language where there are no named functions :)
01:50:25 <pikhq> GregorR: You know what I mean, though, right?
01:50:54 <GregorR> I think the name mangling is a non-issue. But otherwise, yeah, it would make sense if the C functions basically were Plof functions which happened to have native code.
01:51:23 <pikhq> Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying.
01:51:39 <pikhq> It's an easy solution, which allows for consistency with Plof.
01:51:54 <pikhq> Doesn't work well for Dplof, methinks, though.
01:52:14 <GregorR> It'd work fine for DPlof - unions and structs in D are exactly equivalent to their C versions.
01:52:20 <pikhq> Ah.
01:52:49 <GregorR> Still, you have to admit that my current dlopen method is much easier :)
01:52:53 <Tweek888> please print the laplace transform of something that isn't 0
01:53:05 <oerjan> 1 -> 0
01:53:09 <pikhq> Easier, but less elegant.
01:53:11 <Tweek888> ty
01:53:39 <oerjan> wait...
01:53:57 <oerjan> scratch that one. i'll look it up.
01:54:16 <GregorR> GregorR: Please go back in time and uninvent IRP.
01:54:36 * GregorR has halted: SIG_NO_TIME_TRAVEL
01:55:35 * pikhq has halted: SIG_STACK: Execution stack overflow; no runtime recursion
02:03:43 <oerjan> ok, 1 -> 1/s, more or less.
02:03:52 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace_transform
02:05:36 <bsmntbombdood> shouldn't the laplace transform be (C -> C) -> (C -> C)?
02:05:59 <oerjan> i _said_ more or less.
02:06:43 <oerjan> and apparently it does not usually converge everywhere.
02:07:12 <oerjan> eh, no, the initial definition should be on R.
02:07:57 <oerjan> *function
02:08:33 <oerjan> so it is more like (R -> C) -> (C -> Maybe C) :)
02:08:54 <bsmntbombdood> oh, right, it's time
02:09:04 <oerjan> actually, (R+ -> C) -> (C -> Maybe C)
02:14:25 <Tweek888> :)
02:14:35 <Tweek888> i take it you haven't taken differential equations?
02:14:53 <pikhq> I don't know what's going on. . .
02:15:12 <Tweek888> maths.
02:15:14 <pikhq> Differential equations, I belive, comes *after* AP calc, which is what I'm doing right now.
02:15:30 <bsmntbombdood> ha, classes
02:15:33 <Tweek888> you should just skip to diff. eq.
02:15:40 <Tweek888> AP calc is no fun.
02:15:48 <pikhq> I'm almost *done*.
02:15:56 <Tweek888> all you need to make a 5 is a TI-89 Titanium.
02:15:59 <pikhq> Is diff. eq right after AP calc?
02:16:07 <bsmntbombdood> ap calc is what i'm taking next year
02:16:11 <Tweek888> it's an elective class.
02:16:31 <Tweek888> normally taken after calc ii or iii.
02:16:37 <pikhq> Ah.
02:16:40 <Tweek888> so, it'd be after AP calc BC
02:16:48 <pikhq> So, I'll take it my college freshman year.
02:17:00 * pikhq is a HS junior ATM
02:17:30 <Tweek888> yeah. but even at that, there are a few different diff. eq. courses.
02:17:41 <bsmntbombdood> what is it?
02:18:01 <Tweek888> love.
02:21:00 <bsmntbombdood> I haven't reached the wizard yet, so i'm just going to keep chopping wood then
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03:06:38 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
03:06:49 <RodgerTheGreat> howdy, everyone
03:06:53 <bsmntbombdood> hi
03:07:09 <pikhq> 'Lo.
03:07:22 <fax> Hey
03:07:23 <RodgerTheGreat> what's been going on in #Esoteric recently?
03:07:52 <pikhq> Plof's going to become self-hosting soon as Gregor and I bother.
03:08:45 <RodgerTheGreat> neato
03:09:07 <RodgerTheGreat> bootstrapping it with C or something first?
03:09:50 <pikhq> No, bootstrapping it with DPlof.
03:11:58 <RodgerTheGreat> I've been doing some work recently on the idea I was throwing around a few weeks ago about an esoteric networking protocol
03:12:10 <pikhq> Dear God.
03:12:21 <pikhq> I think you should implement it in PESOIX. . .
03:12:26 <pikhq> And thereby get PESOIX working. :p
03:12:41 <RodgerTheGreat> the general idea is that packets consist of a number of headers that contain a simple scripting language that "peel off" at each machine they bounce through
03:13:29 <RodgerTheGreat> but since the scripts can self-modify and control their own packet's routing, you can use the language to write networking utilities as well.
03:13:35 <RodgerTheGreat> or worms, I guess.
03:14:08 <RodgerTheGreat> but it'll let you write an ftp or p2p app in just a handful of characters!
03:15:04 <RodgerTheGreat> and the system allows for totally ad-hoc network configurations, wherein packets are also used to update various "routing tables" stored independently on each machine
03:15:33 <pikhq> Jebus.
03:15:35 <pikhq> Crazy.
03:15:36 <RodgerTheGreat> :D
03:15:50 <RodgerTheGreat> but somewhat utilitarian and functional, eh?
03:17:08 <RodgerTheGreat> I envision it as an extremely powerful (if horrifically insecure) system.
03:17:19 <bsmntbombdood> aaah
03:17:33 <bsmntbombdood> i thought i might be able to shorten my fibonacci code by a character, but no
03:17:42 <pikhq> It could be horrifically secure on the Hurd. . .
03:17:46 <fax> :[
03:17:50 <pikhq> Just make the script run as UID {}.
03:17:52 <RodgerTheGreat> what language are you working in, bsmntbombdood?
03:17:58 <bsmntbombdood> RodgerTheGreat: dc
03:18:09 <fax> whats dc like?
03:18:17 <pikhq> It's a Turing complete RPN calculator.
03:18:19 <bsmntbombdood> fax: crazy awesome
03:18:26 * fax cant tell from looking at the examples
03:18:34 <fax> bsmntbombdood: do you have a link to some basic info?
03:18:38 <pikhq> man dc
03:18:51 <bsmntbombdood> RodgerTheGreat: I proposed a little contest before, write a program to print the 435 fib number in the least number of characters
03:18:55 <fax> wait how is that on my computer :D
03:18:58 <fax> cool
03:19:03 <bsmntbombdood> mine is 33 characters
03:19:04 <RodgerTheGreat> well, at least *some* packets need to be able to alter the routing table, which is where the insecurity lies. They'll also probably have their own persistent storage mechanism of some kind, like "cookiespace" or something that's cleared periodically.
03:19:10 * pikhq has written a (non-Turing complete) dc clone. . . 94 LOC, not counting preprocessor macros
03:19:17 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: neato
03:19:31 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: So run it in a subHurd.
03:19:41 <bsmntbombdood> 0sa1[rdla+rsar1-d0<f]dsf435rxlap
03:19:53 <fax> mine was 27 chars, 0{((2 0{(,+/))^:(435-2))1 1
03:20:05 <pikhq> But that's not dc.
03:20:07 <fax> but I dont know the langauge well
03:20:10 <bsmntbombdood> doesn't have to be dc
03:20:15 <pikhq> Ah.
03:20:18 <bsmntbombdood> fax: no way that works
03:20:21 <pikhq> Hmm.
03:20:26 <fax> bsmntbombdood: works for me
03:20:36 <bsmntbombdood> what is the number?
03:20:44 <pikhq> fib(435);
03:20:50 <fax> pikhq: heh
03:20:51 <bsmntbombdood> 363193867...461442690?
03:20:57 <fax> bsmntbombdood: sec
03:21:09 <fax> 3.63194e90
03:21:12 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. I can't think of a language I could beat 27 characters with for a fibo...
03:21:13 <fax> is the output
03:21:23 <bsmntbombdood> fax: nope, doesn't count
03:21:24 <fax> I can probably set options so it prints the whole decimal expantion
03:21:28 <bsmntbombdood> needs all characters
03:21:29 <fax> like preferences
03:21:58 <bsmntbombdood> i can beat your program, fax: [3.63194e90]p
03:22:05 <RodgerTheGreat> lol
03:22:10 <RodgerTheGreat> nice
03:23:14 <fax> bsmntbombdood: that doesnt calculuate it
03:23:58 <bsmntbombdood> doesn't need to
03:24:03 <bsmntbombdood> it only needs to print it
03:25:33 <bsmntbombdood> the number is 92 digits long, though, so the program won't win any prizes
03:27:16 <fax> well
03:27:25 <fax> if I go into options and set print precision to 20, I can get 3.6319386724082529327e90
03:27:28 <RodgerTheGreat> so, basically, you can view the challenge as either a math optimization problem (express it succinctly either iteratively, recursively, or explicitly) or a compression problem.
03:27:39 <bsmntbombdood> RodgerTheGreat: same thing
03:27:40 <fax> but I dont know how to make it print the full expansion
03:28:09 <fax> shame it wont go above 20
03:28:17 <fax> (seems arbitrary)
03:28:35 <bsmntbombdood> kolmogorov complexity
03:28:36 <RodgerTheGreat> there's a difference in approach between trying to calculate a number and trying to compress a string
03:29:17 <Tweek888> print what is love
03:29:22 <oerjan> 20 is the largest you can get with a 64 bit number
03:29:22 <Tweek888> print bassline
03:29:29 <RodgerTheGreat> lol
03:29:46 <RodgerTheGreat> print baby don't hurt me
03:29:48 <Tweek888> ur doin it worng.
03:29:55 <Tweek888> baby don't hurt me
03:29:59 <bsmntbombdood> RodgerTheGreat: not in the kolmogorov complexity sense
03:30:19 <RodgerTheGreat> ok, I will accept this
03:30:55 <RodgerTheGreat> but I was attempting to highlight the different ways someone could look at the problem, from a conventional programming standpoint
03:31:26 <bsmntbombdood> ok, sure
03:32:16 <fax> The first surprising result is that there is no way to effectively compute K.
03:32:16 <fax> Theorem. K is not a computable function.
03:32:20 <fax> ^ that doesnt surprise me :/
03:33:00 * pikhq wonders what that fibonacci number would look like if represented in binary. . .
03:33:09 <fax> the chain rule one is interesting
03:33:14 <RodgerTheGreat> bbl guys
03:33:39 <pikhq> I'd bet that a binary representation, converted into ASCII, would work. XD
03:33:42 <oerjan> pikhq: just use the obase setting for dc
03:34:03 <pikhq> f(x)=f(x-1)+f(x-2)
03:34:06 <pikhq> Err.
03:36:51 <fax> man
03:36:57 <fax> always such interesting stuff here :D
03:37:29 <pikhq> That's the idea.
03:40:44 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: dc -e "2o 1sb 0sa [la d lb + sa sb lap lfx]dsfx"|more
03:40:51 <bsmntbombdood> print all the fibonacci numbers, in binary
03:41:14 <bsmntbombdood> oooh, interesting
03:41:36 <bsmntbombdood> the last digit goes 1,1,0,1,1,0...
03:41:37 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: No, I mean "raw binary".
03:41:40 * fax hooks on tr 01 ' #'|
03:41:46 <bsmntbombdood> oh
03:41:56 <pikhq> Like, "screw up your terminal if viewed raw".
03:42:14 <bsmntbombdood> change that "p" to a "P"
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03:42:25 <fax> hm
03:42:36 <fax> how would you turn "10101010110" into raw binary?
03:42:43 <fax> I mean is there a program already
03:42:50 <fax> instead of writing some code
03:43:11 <bsmntbombdood> dc -e "2O 10101010110 P"
03:43:27 <fax> oh cool :D
03:43:32 <bsmntbombdood> er, no
03:43:41 <CakeProphet> mmmm... I need to find some kind of programming job where I can work at home.
03:43:54 <bsmntbombdood> dc -e "2i 10101010110 P"
03:44:19 <oerjan> i don't think dc goes up to base 256.
03:44:30 <bsmntbombdood> oerjan: doesn't need to
03:44:42 <oerjan> for raw binary you need base 256
03:44:50 <Tweek888> print HEY EVERYONE HACKERS IS ON TV
03:44:51 <Tweek888> :/
03:44:56 <pikhq> That's real base 2.
03:44:58 <bsmntbombdood> oerjan: "P" command
03:45:06 <oerjan> oh
03:45:49 <bsmntbombdood> 2o 1sb 0sa [la d lb + sa sb laP lfx]dsfx
03:45:57 <bsmntbombdood> all whitespace optional
03:47:02 <pikhq> Indeed.
03:56:42 <bsmntbombdood> nothing interesting in there
03:58:24 <bsmntbombdood> but piping it through hexdump and watching it scroll is fun
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04:07:49 <zorkplik> Please say "hello world"
04:08:30 * oerjan starts to think someone's mentioned irp somewhere again
04:08:40 <pikhq> IRP ERROR: I don't want to.
04:08:58 <pikhq> oerjan: I wonder if #irp is still up, and if so, why don't we redirect all IRP traffic there?
04:09:00 <zorkplik> I found it on http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/IRP
04:09:20 <zorkplik> The #irp channel has only one other person
04:09:30 <pikhq> Yeah, seems that it died.
04:09:32 <oerjan> it was empty last time i checked
04:09:46 <pikhq> I just joined it.
04:10:00 <zorkplik> What was irpbot?
04:10:22 <pikhq> oerjan *should* have it somewhere.
04:10:34 <oerjan> *sigh*
04:10:56 <zorkplik> I suppose the solution to this is to make an automated interpreter.
04:11:01 <zorkplik> (thereby defeating the purpose)
04:11:15 <zorkplik> The internet just isn't as boring as it used to be, so I'm not surprised there aren't human interpreters
04:11:28 <bsmntbombdood> this paper is funny: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/arvindn/misc/knuth_song_complexity.pdf
04:11:57 <oerjan> actually there are, it's just that Tweek888 has filled up my irp quota for today :)
04:12:21 <pikhq> irpbot *should* assign out which interpreter claims a job. . .
04:12:42 <pikhq> If I don't get oerjan to find it again, I'm going to have to write the thing.
04:12:48 <pikhq> Or just stop caring. :p
04:12:57 <oerjan> sheesh, i do know exactly where it is.
04:13:10 <oerjan> it's just i got bored of it, like everyone else
04:13:19 <pikhq> Figured as much.
04:13:25 <zorkplik> well, irpbot won't help if there are no humans
04:13:39 <zorkplik> maybe all the would-be interpreters are at Amazon's Mechanical Turk.
04:13:42 <zorkplik> We need to DDoS that
04:13:56 <pikhq> Moral of the story: rm -rf IRP.
04:14:27 <zorkplik> IRP interpreter: permission error (must be root)
04:16:35 <oerjan> and btw i did put up a copy of the source in case anyone wanted to use it. http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/IrpBot.hs
04:16:41 <pikhq> Mmkay.
04:16:49 <pikhq> Probably won't ever get used, though.
04:19:13 <zorkplik> My favorite esoteric programming language I've seen is Befunge.
04:19:17 <zorkplik> How about you guys?
04:19:39 <zorkplik> Befunge is unique, and yet still useable for efficient programming (I think), and it's code looks cool.
04:20:15 <oerjan> yes, befunge has random access memory
04:20:33 <oerjan> although not as easily random jumps
04:20:56 <pikhq> I'm a fan of Dimensifuck, personally.
04:22:49 <pikhq> Of course, it's my language, so. . .
04:23:35 <zorkplik> Wow, it's like a combination of the ideas of befunge and brainfuck but better
04:23:49 <zorkplik> Did you write an interpreter, or was that somebody else?
04:23:56 <pikhq> That was a friend of mine.
04:24:05 <pikhq> I've done a bit of work on the interpreter, though.
04:24:16 <zorkplik> cool
04:25:04 <zorkplik> Can dimensifuck do things efficiently? (I'm pretty sure that brainfuck will have much higher minimum orders of complexity for most algorithms than theoretical limits)
04:25:44 <pikhq> It's a bit less efficient, but it is at least Turing complete.
04:25:57 <pikhq> Loops take more characters.
04:26:13 <zorkplik> I really like how looping works in befunge
04:26:25 <zorkplik> in dimensifuck do you move a pointer a long the dimensions?
04:26:29 <zorkplik> I didn't quite understand it
04:26:32 <oerjan> you can of course assume some optimizations such as leaping over blank spaces
04:26:59 <pikhq> The code pointer moves in one dimension; _ = change the dimension that v and ^ will change the code pointer to.
04:27:35 <pikhq> Grr. I should get the Dimensifuck spec moved elsewhere; Nick's webserver is down.
04:28:54 <GregorR> Arrrgh, I thought dplof was broken in some horrible way - as it turns out, indexing a linearly linked list is not efficient :P
04:29:47 <oerjan> i suppose efficiency is relatively unimportant in an interpreter intended only for bootstrapping
04:30:23 <GregorR> No, the problem is that dplof crashed when I was running PlofPlof.
04:30:24 <zorkplik> who uses esoteric languages for bootstrapping?
04:30:33 <GregorR> zorkplik: Plof is not esoteric.
04:30:38 <CakeProphet> I like strapping boots.
04:30:48 <zorkplik> oh, plof.
04:30:49 <GregorR> oerjan: It actually crashed because I tried to index an LLL about 3000-deep X-P
04:31:02 <GregorR> oerjan: Shockingly, I got a stack overflow.
04:31:13 <pikhq> Plof is a serious project of Gregor's. ;)
04:31:26 <oerjan> ok unoptimized tail recursion
04:31:31 <pikhq> zorkplik: BTW, I can bootstrap Brainfuck.
04:32:02 <zorkplik> meaning you have a brainfuck interpreter in brainfuck?
04:32:10 <GregorR> That's sexy.
04:32:14 <pikhq> Actually, *I've* got a Brainfuck compiler.
04:32:28 <pikhq> There's a Brainfuck interpreter in Brainfuck, though (I didn't write it).
04:32:45 <zorkplik> compiles to binaries?
04:32:46 <pikhq> (To be *perfectly* fair, my Brainfuck compiler is written in BFM, which merely compiles to Brainfuck)
04:32:49 <pikhq> To C.
04:33:07 <pikhq> There's one out there that compiles to x86 binary, though.
04:34:20 * pikhq loves his nice, optimizing, efficient BF->C compiler. . .
04:34:40 * GregorR loves his incomplete, non-optimizing, inefficient C->BF compiler.
04:34:49 * pikhq also loves that.
04:35:03 <zorkplik> Ooh, port nethack to bf!
04:35:20 <pikhq> First implement c2bf.
04:35:23 <pikhq> Fully.
04:35:27 <pikhq> Then port libc.
04:35:29 <GregorR> Heheh
04:35:31 <pikhq> Then port ncurses.
04:35:34 <pikhq> Have fun.
04:36:12 <zorkplik> wouldn't it be easier to make a program to port assembler to bf?
04:36:18 <pikhq> Probably.
04:36:22 <zorkplik> btw, I just had a great idea for an esoteric language
04:36:27 <pikhq> (given that it's already been done. . .)
04:36:31 <zorkplik> crap, I forgot it!
04:36:34 <zorkplik> it'll come back to me.
04:36:40 <zorkplik> Right.
04:37:19 <pikhq> http://kidsquid.com/old/compilers/bfasm/bfasm.html
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04:38:04 <zorkplik_> aw, my internets went away.
04:38:11 <zorkplik_> and when I reconnected, it changed my nickname, because it thought I was still connected
04:41:41 <oerjan> if you register your nickname you can ask nickserv to kill your "ghost"
04:43:32 <oerjan> unless you actually have the old irc client running somewhere, in which case it might reconnect
04:47:09 <GregorR> fax: That lisp container choice image is waaaaaaaay too funny :P
04:47:12 <GregorR> fax: It haunts my dreams.
04:53:14 <oerjan> it seems that Lua is the same except with associative tables
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05:03:50 * GregorR wonders what other basic container types Plof needs....
05:04:16 * pikhq goes off to sleep. . .
05:04:40 <pikhq> GregorR: You need a list of stacks of strings of integers.
05:13:03 <GregorR> Yaaaaaaaaaaaaay, I made a Range type :P
05:13:14 <GregorR> Fun:
05:13:15 <GregorR> foreach(new(Range, 0, Infinity, 2), (x){
05:13:15 <GregorR> println(x);
05:13:15 <GregorR> });
05:33:56 <GregorR> Current collections in the Plof core: AArray, Array, LazyCollection (every item is generated from a function), List, Range, Set.
05:34:12 <GregorR> I don't feel the need to make Queue, Stack, etc, since List can easily be used as them.
05:35:13 <oerjan> deQue?
05:36:17 <oerjan> hm... i guess it's not very different from Queue
05:37:08 <oerjan> or wait...
05:37:27 <GregorR> Honestly, I'm not sure how deque is implemented :)
05:37:35 <oerjan> yes it is, you need a doubly linked list
05:37:45 <GregorR> My List is doubly-linked.
05:37:51 <oerjan> oh
05:38:06 <GregorR> My primary purpose here is not efficiency ;)
05:38:26 <oerjan> what about sharing?
05:38:39 <GregorR> ?
05:39:06 <oerjan> if you do something like (cons a (tail b))
05:39:36 <oerjan> then you cannot update the double link
05:40:37 <GregorR> Hmm, yeah, that's true.
05:43:21 <oerjan> purely functional queues and deques seem to require more than lists anyway.
05:43:53 <GregorR> Plof is anything but purely functional :)
05:44:19 <oerjan> i mean immutable datastructure
05:44:41 <oerjan> which has its use even in an otherwise impure language
05:46:07 <GregorR> True, true.
05:46:52 <GregorR> Hmmm, what to do, what to do.
05:47:21 <GregorR> Now that I actually have Plof at a very usable place, I don't know what to do next X-P
05:48:29 <oerjan> write a program in it?
05:48:49 <GregorR> Yeah, but that's just it - the only program I need to write right now is PlofPlof, and I want to hold off on that until my head stops spinning.
05:50:53 <oerjan> well if your head is spinning then a break may be in order
05:51:14 <oerjan> or an exorcist
05:51:19 <GregorR> Heh
06:05:40 <GregorR> Why Gregor hates Python: Every type I type Python, I typo Pythong and have to remove the 'g'.
06:07:43 <oerjan> that sounds rather Freudian.
06:10:34 <bsmntbombdood> deques are just doubly linked lists
06:10:58 <bsmntbombdood> a pair (pointer to head, pointer to tail)
06:10:58 <oerjan> that is just one possible implementation
06:11:10 <GregorR> I thought they had constant-time lookup?
06:11:26 <bsmntbombdood> constant time push, pop
06:11:37 <GregorR> Oh.
06:11:49 <GregorR> How is that different from a list?
06:11:52 <GregorR> (doubly linked)
06:12:24 <bsmntbombdood> "deques are just doubly linked lists"
06:12:30 <GregorR> Heh :P
06:12:50 <oerjan> deques are an ast, not an implementation of it
06:13:03 <oerjan> Haskell uses finger trees.
06:14:05 * bsmntbombdood reads
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08:04:45 <GregorR> ........... wtf.
08:04:51 <GregorR> I have "Washington Mutual Free Checking"
08:05:04 <GregorR> On my transaction history: "ATM BALANCE INQUIRY FEE"
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10:04:05 <oklopol> hmm... should i read 2 weeks of this channels logs or not...
10:04:14 <oklopol> have you ppl been interesting?
10:07:51 <GregorR> oklopol: Depends ... do you have any interest in Plof? :P
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10:26:28 <oklopol> i have a lot of interests... it's just reading 2 weeks of a mostly idle channel log takes multiple hours
10:26:54 <oklopol> and... i don't think that's the case here
10:27:01 <oklopol> i should never go out of country.
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12:58:14 <Tweek888> please print the enumerated root of all evil.
13:23:54 <SimonRC> Syntax error.
13:27:48 <Tweek888> please suck my syntax error.
13:28:00 <Tweek888> :P
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15:30:56 <SimonRC> ZOMG Earthquaek! :-) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6602677.stm
15:31:40 <Tweek888> print ZOMG Earthquaek! :-) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6602677.stm
15:31:56 <fax> WTF
15:32:16 <fax> no.. way
15:32:33 <fax> thats got to be a hoax.
15:32:49 <SimonRC> from the BBC?
15:32:55 <fax> :S
15:32:56 <fax> wow
15:33:02 <SimonRC> there was another small one a few years ago in the north of England
15:33:23 <SimonRC> given its alleged range, my parents could have felt it
15:33:38 <SimonRC> They would probably all be asleep at that time though
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15:54:02 * pikhq can't wait for October. . .
15:54:48 <pikhq> KDE4: Coming to a package manager near you. October 23, 2007.
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16:01:59 <SimonRC> خخا
16:02:03 <SimonRC> ثقة
16:02:21 <SimonRC> damned language-switching
16:04:18 <Tweek888> language switching is fun
16:06:21 <Tweek888> română
16:08:46 <pikhq> Jes, bonas.
16:10:11 <Tweek888> nein
16:10:42 <Tweek888> german is an ugly language
16:10:49 <Tweek888> or i would have taken it in high school
16:25:20 <pikhq> Doitugojanakaxtuta.
16:31:58 <Tweek888> please print Doitugojanakaxtuta.
16:35:29 * pikhq writes it out on a piece of paper
16:36:38 <pikhq> 11 characters. Happy?
16:39:00 <Tweek888> ;/
16:50:48 <RodgerTheGreat> Tweek888: how is german ugly?
16:51:28 <RodgerTheGreat> glottal stops make a language easier to parse
16:51:36 <Tweek888> it's an ugly language
16:51:40 <Tweek888> not the sounds
16:51:42 <Tweek888> the structure
16:51:48 <RodgerTheGreat> wtf?
16:52:25 <RodgerTheGreat> the accent marks are cool, and noun capitalization creates an interesting kinda flow
16:52:44 * pikhq prefers Japanese.
16:53:08 <Tweek888> :/
16:53:29 <Tweek888> too many irregularities
16:53:32 <RodgerTheGreat> everybody and their cousin on the internet prefers Japanese
16:53:38 <Tweek888> i hate japanese
16:53:39 * pikhq starts preparing for the next BFM release. . .
16:53:54 <pikhq> Three years of studying it kind of encourages you to like it. XD
16:54:05 <Tweek888> haha
16:54:13 <RodgerTheGreat> I find German useful, because some of the best demoscene coders in the world are from Germany.
16:54:18 <RodgerTheGreat> heh
16:54:21 <Tweek888> true.
16:54:21 <RodgerTheGreat> fair enough
16:54:27 <Tweek888> but who cares about the demo scene? :d
16:54:58 <pikhq> The CCC cares.
16:55:07 <RodgerTheGreat> I think the approaches a 64kb limitation leads to are interesting and can be applied elsewhere to great effect
16:55:34 <RodgerTheGreat> some of the work on procedural content generation is amazing
16:56:05 <RodgerTheGreat> and if game designers want to keep making things more realistic without spending *billions* on each new game, it's necessary.
16:56:40 <Tweek888> no movie or video game has ever cost a billion dollars.
16:57:03 <Tweek888> i added movie for perspective.
16:57:53 <RodgerTheGreat> I use hyperbole for effect
16:58:47 <Tweek888> I use cocaine
17:00:36 <pikhq> New BFM and Basm releases up. . .
17:00:49 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bfm.tar.bz2 http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/basm.tar.bz2
17:01:11 <RodgerTheGreat> cool. <inline IRP "please enumerate new features" \>
17:01:36 <Tweek888> pikhq, what are those? compilers?
17:01:52 <pikhq> Tweek888: BFM is a compiler for BFM. Basm is a Brainfuck to C compiler in BFM.
17:02:06 <Tweek888> that's nice.
17:02:08 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Internal API cleaner; partial C backend.
17:02:24 <pikhq> Made pretty much all of the internals cleaner, really.
17:02:31 <pikhq> Also includes some documentation.
17:02:47 <RodgerTheGreat> documentation is good
17:03:02 <pikhq> Basm has been made smaller and more efficient.
17:03:13 <pikhq> I think I've done some fiddling with the optimizer, as well.
17:03:39 <pikhq> Ah, right. Made it work with a newer build of Tcllib.
17:04:13 <pikhq> And the Basm tarball now includes a C version of the basm code, allowing for easier bootstrapping.
17:11:33 <pikhq> Hmm.
17:11:50 * pikhq has discovered the issue with the C backend. . .
17:51:26 <pikhq> C backend I *believe* works now.
17:51:55 <pikhq> New build up again.
17:53:16 <pikhq> I've got a new basm build up, which has C code produced via the C backend.
17:54:32 <pikhq> And said C code does bootstrap it all.
17:57:36 <pikhq> And nobody cares. XD
18:01:55 <Tweek888> xD
18:09:15 -!- mtve has quit ("Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5").
18:12:18 <pikhq> But then, why would anyone want something that makes Brainfuck remotely useful?
18:13:02 <RodgerTheGreat> I know I'm in the minority here, but I enjoy esoteric languages that combine functionality with unconventionality
18:13:13 <RodgerTheGreat> as well as tools with similar intent
18:13:16 <Tweek888> pikhq, is brainfuck fast?
18:13:36 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Then you should love BFM.
18:13:41 <pikhq> It's odd, but it's functional.
18:13:44 <pikhq> Tweek888: Can be.
18:14:00 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm aware of this
18:14:11 <pikhq> Right. You've seen me rant about it, after all. :p
18:17:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I've been here through its entire development process.
18:17:44 <pikhq> Right.
18:18:20 * pikhq wonders how many people have actually coded in it. . .
18:19:48 * pikhq wonders why the hell LostKng doesn't work in Basm any more. . .
18:20:12 <pikhq> indent: LostKng.c:6857: Error:Unexpected end of file
18:20:23 <pikhq> Well, that'd explain it; seems I'm using a borken LostKng.b source.
18:24:47 <RodgerTheGreat> that would explain it
18:25:53 <bsmntbombdood> German :/
18:26:15 <bsmntbombdood> I wanted to learn german in highschool, but I have to take stupid spanish instead
18:27:26 <RodgerTheGreat> dayum
18:27:29 <RodgerTheGreat> sorry, dude
18:30:53 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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18:31:43 <pikhq> And my computer crashed trying to compile LostKng.
18:31:50 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
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19:42:05 <ihope> Realization!
19:42:23 <ihope> The kernel needs to implement what's needed to let the processes do everything else. :-)
19:42:50 <ihope> Obviously, processes need to be loaded somehow, so the kernel must be able to load processes.
19:43:08 <ihope> I hear that interrupts to straight to the kernel, so it needs to have a way to hand those over to processes.
19:43:31 <ihope> And... what, is that it?
19:43:44 -!- fax has quit (" ").
19:55:37 <pikhq> Congrats on developing part of a microkernel.
19:55:50 <pikhq> The other part you need, of course, is a message passing interface.
20:02:43 <GregorR> Heh
20:11:41 <ihope> pikhq: what, the processes can't do that themselves?
20:11:43 <ihope> :-)
20:12:03 <pikhq> ihope: . . .
20:12:11 <ihope> Load a process, send all the interrupts to it.
20:12:27 <pikhq> Well, if *that's* the way you think things should go, why not just implement the whole thing on top of DOS?
20:12:28 <ihope> Essentially, delegate *everything* onto the process.
20:12:46 <ihope> Mm, I guess the kernel does have to provide something.
20:12:55 <pikhq> core.com
20:13:06 <pikhq> There, that's the name of your system.
20:13:08 <ihope> Process scheduling, message passing, magic hat...
20:13:22 <pikhq> Just execute core.com, it does everything. :p
20:13:43 * ihope sings a song about the magic hat
20:25:42 <RodgerTheGreat> most kernels also handle memory paging
20:26:01 <RodgerTheGreat> or at least allocation
20:26:15 <RodgerTheGreat> because having processes all grab memory willy-nilly has some issues
20:29:23 <bsmntbombdood> sigh
20:29:30 <bsmntbombdood> i hate my physics teacher
20:29:43 <RodgerTheGreat> what does your teacher do that incites hatred?
20:30:03 <GregorR> :::
20:31:26 <bsmntbombdood> His labs aren't worth doing because of all the bullshit assumptions he introduces
20:31:57 <bsmntbombdood> I am supposed to calculate maximum instantaneous velocity given average velocity
20:43:27 <CakeProphet> hmmm.... which unicode characters could be used to represent whitespace (not a new line, although I need to know that to)
20:50:43 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Impossible.
20:50:52 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: no shit
20:51:05 <pikhq> Has he *ever* learned calculus?
20:51:38 <bsmntbombdood> He is scared of calculus, and wants us to be also
20:51:43 <pikhq> All that you can tell with average velocity is that, at one point, the instantaneous velocity equals the average velocity. . . (assuming a continuous function)
20:53:06 <bsmntbombdood> i'm guessing he wants me to assume constant acceleration, which is not anywhere close to what actually happened
20:53:38 <pikhq> Well, assuming constant acceleration at least lets you figure out what the max velocity is. . .
20:53:43 <pikhq> But why give the average velocity?
20:54:02 <bsmntbombdood> what?
20:55:31 * pikhq is confused as to what your teacher wants
20:55:40 <ihope> Your physics teacher is scared of calculus?
20:55:49 <bsmntbombdood> yeah
20:56:00 <pikhq> In other news, fish scared of water.
20:56:24 <ihope> Indeed.
20:56:24 <bsmntbombdood> Physics is stupid without calculus
20:56:32 <ihope> Calculus is very important in physics.
20:56:48 <bsmntbombdood> calculus was created _for_ physics
20:57:24 <ihope> Unless we discover the universe to be based on Conway's Life, or something.
20:57:24 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: was it?
20:57:24 <ihope> Interesting.
20:57:58 <pikhq> ihope: Yeah. . . Calculus == Newtonian physics.
20:58:21 <ihope> How often does e^x pop up in Newtonian physics?
21:00:01 <pikhq> Any time the position of an object is modeled by e^x.
21:00:09 <ihope> You know, if the universe is based on Conway's Life, I want to introduce a stray glider! >:-)
21:00:16 <ihope> pikhq: and how often is that?
21:00:37 <ihope> Actually, it seems it'd be somewhat common when decay and such is involved.
21:01:46 <bsmntbombdood> yeah
21:01:54 <pikhq> ihope: I just want to fiddle with a glider that's supposed to be there.
21:03:05 <ihope> Well, really, it seems the universe would use something more sophisticated than gliders.
21:03:43 <ihope> See, most research in Conway's Life is concerned with objects surrounded by dead cells.
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21:09:30 <pikhq> ihope: gliders are used in as part of quite a few life patterns, though.
21:11:07 <ihope> Well, what if you base everything on a different agar?
21:11:32 <ihope> You could build outward at one cell per generation, theoretically.
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23:32:39 <GregorR> Anybody want to write a Plof CGI module? :)
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23:36:57 <CakeProphet> >.> Is there any way to rename a process?
23:37:13 * CakeProphet wants to change the name of one of his processes from "pythonw.exe"
23:37:47 <pikhq> GregorR: I'd love to if I weren't needing to get ready for prom.
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