01:14:58 -!- pikhq has set topic: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment -. 01:15:03 UNDO. 01:15:20 That's ... so short ... 01:15:32 -!- GregorR has set topic: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/. 01:15:38 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/. 01:16:10 -!- pikhq has set topic: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or ttp://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0. 01:53:01 heh 01:53:13 no! the'll take away #esoteric ! 01:58:27 at least be esoteric and put it in base 47 or something 01:59:31 Hum ho. 01:59:54 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or ttp://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0. 01:59:56 CfkRAp1041vYQVbFY1aIwA== is base64, i don't happen to have a base 47 encoder handy 02:00:15 what did you change? 02:00:26 Every URL is subtly wrong now. 02:00:37 [2007-04-29 18:31:01] =-= Topic for #esoteric is ``#esoteric - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/'' 02:01:34 GregorR: Why? 02:01:45 Every URL? 02:01:45 I only see one. 02:01:45 -!- ihope has set topic: #esoteric - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0. 02:01:45 That's fascinating, ihope. 02:01:56 Mmh. 02:02:19 Hahahahahah 02:02:32 Hahahahahah? 02:02:44 ははははは？ 02:02:48 All I did was add the channel name back to the topic X-P 02:02:57 And what happened as a result? 02:03:00 What's hilarious is you all seem to have believed that I changed all the URLs :P 02:03:18 You liar. 02:03:37 GregorR: You managed to remove an "h" from one URL. 02:03:48 Which is what I saw. 02:04:15 pikhq: All I did was copy/paste. 02:04:36 GregorR: You did that wrong. 02:04:46 wow, we've got people all over the place according to that frappr map 02:04:47 You managed to actually subtly change a URL. ;) 02:04:50 * pikhq has changed the topic to: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or ttp://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0 02:04:56 ^ Before me :P 02:05:00 GregorR: I know. 02:05:04 (now) 02:05:10 I win :P 02:08:14 http://www.cafepress.com/nonlogic.100812817 <- get yer T-shirts! 02:10:12 http://www.cafepress.com/donotputthebaby <- get yer better T-shirts! 02:10:39 alright, gregor has me there. 02:10:42 Hah 02:11:39 I still win on the basis of opportune timing 02:12:14 http://www.cafepress.com/bizarregeek.11389675 02:12:19 ^ I want to buy this :P 02:13:18 i want that one RAND corp book 02:14:03 ah, yes, "A Million Random Digits with 100,000 Normal Deviates" 02:14:25 Mine's better :P 02:20:06 http://www.cafepress.com/ozyandmillie.16057398 02:20:08 T-shirt! 02:23:28 http://www.cafepress.com/esoprog.33142406 02:39:06 That wins. 03:02:55 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:02:57 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:01:51 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:43:30 'Lo. 04:43:40 Hi. 04:58:48 -!- fax has joined. 04:58:49 hello 04:59:20 'Lo. 05:00:04 I just learned about "Gödel's incompleteness theorem" recently 05:00:06 :( 05:05:25 yes? 05:05:55 very upsetting 05:06:11 Im probably just misunderstanding the implications though 05:06:28 (someone else said it was liberating, so :S) 05:29:23 210210102110222222110210121202122110020210201210202022220222000200122122021111 05:29:27 thank you, that is all 05:30:22 * pikhq watches as Digg melts. . . 05:30:44 #x1D0BEB394D6B32F3984F404B709303FD50221EE9FC7C8E8A0C2BC62767036A8F7 05:30:47 ?! 05:31:32 it's soooo funny on digg 05:42:49 Wow, nice, xmame idles high. 06:31:41 fax: what misimplications do you know of? 06:32:09 well you cant build 'non-trivial' system which you can prove terminate 06:33:42 that's turing's halting theorem... 06:35:40 Uh, yeah, what you've got a hold of there is the halting problem, not Gödel's incompleteness theorem ... 06:37:19 but a _fine_ halting problem it is, nevertheless. 06:38:52 of course this strongly depends on your definition of "non-trivial". 06:40:16 oerjan: i strongly suspect the incompleteness theorem and the halting theorem are indeed highly related if not equivalent 06:40:27 I think you could say that any Turing machine which cannot be simplified into a (some specific) different machine cannot be proven to halt. 06:41:18 you can deduce a form of the incompleteness theorem from the halting theorem, yes. just make a search for proofs that programs terminate. 06:41:27 oerjan: right 06:42:28 however the reverse is a bit more dubious, since the halting detection algorithm is not required to use logic. 06:43:44 i.e. the halting theorem works even for algorithms that give no evidence for their answer. 06:47:12 actually the search for proofs that programs terminate may not be quite water-tight, because a logical theory can contain omega-false theorems - saying that something halts but lying. 06:47:55 what?! 06:49:13 in fact it follows from the theorems we are discussing: there must be an algorithm which doesn't halt but which can never be proved to never halt. and then it is consistent to add its halting as an axiom to a theory. 06:49:39 you can simply run it 06:49:41 though? 06:49:49 counterexample should suffice 06:49:55 but if it never halts you will never know that it never halts 06:50:59 the running will never produce the actual evidence. 06:51:25 ah "The particular value of Omega that you get depends on your choice of computer programming language, but its surprising properties don't depend on that choice." 06:51:46 so you cant have a language with omega = 1, which you can do "anything" with 06:51:56 or I really mean everything 06:52:00 (that is not the same omega i am referring too, by the way.) 06:52:04 oh :| 06:52:10 what is omega-false? 06:52:27 i may have made up that term. 06:52:39 well what is the meaning? 06:53:55 are you just saying a proof which relies on some unproved lemma 06:53:55 and this lemma happens to be unprovable 06:54:10 i am referring to omega-consistency, which is a stronger version of consistency for statements about natural numbers. It means that if a theorem says there exists a natural number with a property, then there actually is such a number in the ordinary sense. 06:54:38 such as the number of steps before an algorithm halts. 06:54:47 I see 06:55:11 but how can the alternative (you can prove somthing, but its false) be true? 06:55:21 but if a theory is not omega-consistent then it can contain statements that are proved but "omega-false": there is no actual example 06:55:34 that makes no sense 06:55:52 theres no example because I dont know it.. or because its impossible to find one? 06:55:57 if you have a theorem of the form "there exists an n such that P(n)" 06:56:28 but there is no theorem P(n) for and actual number n 06:56:31 *any 06:57:18 then your theory is omega-inconsistent, but may still be consistent because you cannot derive a contradiction from the absense of something 06:57:29 ah I see 06:57:39 thats a lot less drastic than what I thought you meant before 07:00:15 i think (off my memory) Godel's first proofs required omega-consistency, but that was later changed to ordinary consistency. 07:01:42 so what you get then is that the halting theorem can probably be used to prove the omega-consistency version of Gdel's theorem. 07:01:50 :/ 07:01:56 that last message didnnt come through 07:02:03 somthing is wrong with this program. 07:02:26 probably my slipping in an iso-8859-1 character. 07:02:36 so what you get then is that the halting theorem can probably be used to prove the omega-consistency version of Godel's theorem. 07:02:58 i have still not set up Unicode properly on this account. 07:03:13 UTF-8 seems the de-facto standard for IRC 07:03:21 but hm 07:03:25 yeah, it makes sense. 07:11:49 UTF-8 is the de-facto standard for pretty much everything. 07:12:06 Except Japanese+Shift-JIS :) 07:23:11 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:25:18 -!- tokigun_ has joined. 07:27:02 -!- tokigun has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:31:19 -!- tokigun has joined. 07:33:02 -!- tokigun_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:05:57 -!- tokigun has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:06:01 -!- tokigun has joined. 08:19:06 -!- tokigun_ has joined. 08:19:26 -!- tokigun has quit (Connection reset by peer). 08:33:47 -!- oerjan has quit ("fnordr, fnardar, fnirdi, fnord"). 08:33:59 -!- nazgjunk has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:41:35 -!- nazgjunk has joined. 11:22:12 -!- ihope has joined. 11:50:03 -!- jix__ has joined. 11:55:08 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix. 11:58:28 -!- nazgjunk has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:02:04 -!- nazgjunk has joined. 13:18:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:19:27 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:49:54 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:12:02 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:31:21 -!- crathman has joined. 15:34:05 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:04:56 -!- helios24 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:23:19 -!- nazgjunk has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:31:15 -!- helios24 has joined. 16:34:14 -!- nazgjunk has joined. 16:43:06 -!- helios24_ has joined. 16:43:23 -!- helios24 has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:45:16 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:45:34 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:08:04 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:01:58 -!- meatmanek has quit (Connection timed out). 20:09:56 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 20:30:29 -!- nazgjunk has quit ("Bi-la Kaifa"). 20:31:19 -!- nazgjunk has joined. 20:59:03 -!- meatmanek has joined. 21:10:56 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:11:35 hm 22:25:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:59:46 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:10:10 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 23:15:02 I just mis-lexed as "billo frights" 23:16:37 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:17:12 -!- ihope has joined. 23:28:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Operation timed out). 23:30:59 dillogimp got owned on c.l.s 23:37:57 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:43:12 -!- crathman has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]").