←2007-05-25 2007-05-26 2007-05-27→ ↑2007 ↑all
00:18:05 <oklopol> okay, opinions
00:18:11 <ehird`> i have one of those
00:18:39 <oklopol> i need to have ' and `... where the other should be a lisp quote and the other the same in the other direction
00:18:54 <ehird`> like 'X = X and X` = X?
00:18:58 <oklopol> the other means whatever follows it is a funciton
00:19:03 <ehird`> ah
00:19:04 <ehird`> so
00:19:12 <oklopol> the other means whatever follows is a value
00:19:15 <ehird`> 'X = X, X` = .... X is a function?
00:19:23 <oklopol> `X means a is a function
00:19:29 <oklopol> 'X means X is a value
00:19:32 <oklopol> but not a, X
00:19:38 <oklopol> now my question is
00:19:42 <oklopol> which shuold mean which
00:19:47 <oklopol> that was a random choise
00:19:49 <ehird`> ' == value
00:19:51 <oklopol> *should
00:19:57 <ehird`> lisp heritage must be respected ;)
00:19:59 <ehird`> need some parens too!
00:20:06 <ehird`> (cadr '(1 2 3))
00:20:08 <oklopol> hmm
00:20:41 <ehird`> hey - that's a good idea, an anti-golf contest
00:20:46 <oklopol> you almost never need to tell manually something is a function
00:20:50 <ehird`> biggest and slowest program you can make e.g. print hello world
00:21:19 <ehird`> heh - it'd certainly be easier to write an anti-golf-helper-bot than a golf-helper-bot that exists...
00:21:27 <oklopol> `4 4 would mean (lambda a:4)(4) if you know python, but that's just sick
00:21:39 <Pikhq> ehird`: Please. . .
00:21:43 <oklopol> where `4 would be the infix funciton
00:21:44 <Pikhq> That's almost too easy.
00:22:08 <Pikhq> Step 1: fix up C2BF a bit.
00:22:12 <ehird`> Pikhq: i like that one on everything2 that makes a random string, checks if its md5 hash is == hworlds, and prints it if so
00:22:18 <Pikhq> Step 2: Get the C++>C compiler working.
00:22:22 <ehird`> apparently it'll take a few hundred years to work
00:22:49 <Pikhq> Step 3: Write a horribly bloated C++ "Hello, world" program using a few classes per character.
00:22:57 <Pikhq> Step 4: Enjoy.
00:23:06 <ehird`> Pikhq: i think i hate you
00:23:16 <oklopol> ehird`: your way is better because ' (which is ' on my screen but shouldn't be) is faster to make, and the other one is never really needed
00:23:21 <oklopol> so i'll use it
00:23:22 <Pikhq> What? Don't like C++>C>BF compilation?
00:23:30 <ehird`> step 3 too
00:23:41 <Pikhq> >:D
00:23:46 <oklopol> i have parens, and that would be legal code in this language, but for a different reason
00:24:09 <ehird`> `'`'`''`'`''`'`````skskskskskskk -- is that valid code in your language
00:24:11 <SimonRC> :-) http://www.ninjapirate.com/images/math-of-sex3.gif
00:24:16 <ehird`> because if it is some serious obfuscation could be done
00:24:18 <Pikhq> Maybe shove a C->BF->C compilation stage. . .
00:24:40 <oklopol> ehird`: yes, it is
00:24:53 <ehird`> Pikhq: heh. while size < huge, compile BF to unoptimized C, compile it with C2BF, repeat
00:25:54 <ehird`> c2bf doesn't work on os x...
00:25:58 <ehird`> compilation fails and ld segfaults
00:26:03 <oklopol> making a busy beaver?
00:26:05 <Pikhq> Blame Gregor.
00:26:54 * ehird` wonders what syntax would allow tons of perl code to be run unmodified but do completely different things
00:26:58 <ehird`> probably entirely sigils and ids
00:27:22 <Pikhq> ehird`: Which language do you propose for this anti-golf?
00:27:31 <ehird`> $%<:,{^23}+(*&4)<^; <-- factorial! heh.
00:27:36 <ehird`> Pikhq: um - any i guess
00:27:38 <Pikhq> (please say any. . .)
00:27:41 <ehird`> heh
00:27:44 <Pikhq> Hmm.
00:27:51 <Pikhq> Now, how many languages can I pull into this?
00:27:58 <ehird`> ...oh...my...go
00:28:30 <oklopol> anti-golf?
00:28:39 <ehird`> oklopol: biggest, slowest program
00:28:41 <ehird`> !golf
00:28:47 <Pikhq> For "Hello, world".
00:28:50 <oklopol> thought so
00:28:51 <ehird`> well
00:28:52 <ehird`> for anything
00:29:26 <oklopol> slowest... that's kinda stupid cuz anyone can write one that takes a trillion years
00:29:33 <ehird`> good
00:29:36 <ehird`> extra points
00:29:43 <oklopol> unless you have to prove how long it'll take
00:29:46 <Pikhq> Hrm. . . 99bottles/99.{c,perl,py,tcl,b,c++,sh,zsh,csh}, anyone?
00:30:11 <lament> slowest makes sense
00:30:28 <lament> write a short (under X characters), terminating program that takes the most steps.
00:30:49 <ehird`> not short
00:30:50 <ehird`> largest
00:30:54 <Pikhq> The judging should be on style, not size.
00:31:14 <ehird`> write the biggest terminating program that takes the most steps, in the most ugly, hilarious, convuloted, obfuscated-but-not-like-the-ioccc, slowest way
00:31:14 <Pikhq> . . . Realistically though, why bother judging? Just submit some weird-ass code. :p
00:31:56 * ehird` wonders why so many people like brainfuck
00:31:59 <ehird`> its classic, but ...
00:32:15 <lament> ehird`: largest is easy to write.
00:32:23 <lament> shortest is actually a challenge.
00:32:26 <ehird`> lament: who cares
00:32:31 <lament> ehird`: most people.
00:32:37 <Pikhq> lament: "Most evil" is more of a challenge.
00:32:42 <ehird`> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/SuperPar now this is nice and evil
00:32:49 <ehird`> i might write my entries in that
00:33:34 <Pikhq> Perhaps a "Hello, World" program which uses C to implement a PESOIX brainfuck interpreter which invokes a server which a different C program accesses?
00:34:00 <ehird`> Pikhq: s/C/Unlambda
00:34:20 <Pikhq> s/Unlambda/x86 assembly/
00:34:21 <ehird`> + http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Self-modifying_Brainfuck as the brainfuck dialect
00:34:44 <ehird`> + http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Please_Porige_Hot for....the protocol or something
00:36:52 <SimonRC> 00:29:08 < lament> write a short (under X characters), terminating program that takes the most steps. <--- That is the Busy Beaver problem, and if yu require that the program eventually halt, it isn't computable.
00:37:10 <ehird`> SimonRC: most == most in the competition
00:37:20 <SimonRC> indeed
00:38:11 <oklopol> SimonRC: the competitors must know how it works, then it's computable
00:39:15 <oklopol> plus given any X > 100 the program will easily take so many steps it will not terminate this lifetime, in pretty much any language
00:39:30 <oklopol> 100 was of course a totally random choise
00:39:51 <ehird`> oklopol: not in cobol
00:40:04 <oklopol> cobo-obol
00:40:08 <oklopol> cobol is not tc
00:40:13 <oklopol> so... who cares
00:40:18 <ehird`> it isn't?
00:40:21 <oklopol> (might be, dunno that well)
00:40:26 <ehird`> i mean the real cobol
00:40:33 <oklopol> it seems the first thing you do is allocate memory
00:40:42 <oklopol> and... that's pretty much the memory you'll have
00:40:44 <ehird`> real cobol, dude
00:40:49 <ehird`> Common oriented business language
00:40:59 <ehird`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COBOL
00:41:05 <oklopol> woop woop woop :<
00:41:56 <oklopol> oh... that's not the cobol i've seen
00:42:04 <ehird`> it's a real, serious language.
00:42:12 <ehird`> seriously did you not know about cobol???????
00:42:23 <oklopol> i've read my fathers tutorials from like the sixties
00:42:25 <oklopol> or nineties
00:42:32 <oklopol> whatever, ancient anyweay
00:42:36 <oklopol> *-e
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00:42:53 <oklopol> :<
00:43:05 <oklopol> now that was just rude
00:51:50 <oklopol> you're a helpful lot, i just write my question and come up with the answer before even sending it on the channel
00:54:41 <bsmntbombdood> SimonRC: that makes no sense
00:54:46 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.ninjapirate.com/images/math-of-sex3.gif
00:54:48 <bsmntbombdood> that
00:54:56 <ihope> oklopol: hmm?
00:55:28 <oklopol> ihope: if you don't understand something i say, it's a bad joke
00:55:38 <oklopol> usually
00:55:39 * ihope nods
00:57:05 <oklopol> 1 5 3 frombase 10 tobase 5
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01:16:04 <oklopol> which is most reverse-y? '\', '/' or '%'
01:18:05 <Pikhq> \
01:18:42 <oklopol> ah, reverse division, because that char is so rarely used
01:19:05 <oklopol> i like to try to have a reason for every choise
01:19:41 <Pikhq> It just seems reversey, because it's the reverse of everything Unixy except for escapes. . .
01:20:23 <oklopol> can you clarify, i'm not familiar with unix
01:20:31 <oklopol> (though ircing on linux)
01:21:19 <Pikhq> Path seperators, for one, are / in Unix.
01:22:43 <oklopol> ah okily
01:23:44 <oklopol> a\b is map a to list b, and \a is reverse list a... i see the logic there
01:23:55 <oklopol> but i'll go with that
01:28:13 <oklopol> frombase={:LB->{[]B->0;LB->B*':L+.L}\LB;}
01:28:54 <oklopol> now if i could just get pattern matching ( -> ) be a normal function somehow...
01:29:24 <oklopol> i mean, not have it abide by it's own weird rules
01:29:41 <oklopol> because that's exactly what i try to discourage
01:29:51 <oklopol> ...in this lang, not generally
01:56:12 <oklopol> hehe, i have lisp-like quotes, but for a different reason, plof-like lambda specifiers (: and .), but for a different reason :P
01:56:23 <oklopol> i also had a third one in the same category, but i forgot it
01:56:41 <oklopol> this sounds like a monologue
01:56:52 <oklopol> i promised myself i'd stop doing them :\
02:02:59 <Pikhq> You've got too much creativity. . .
02:03:05 <Pikhq> TO THE PLOF FOR YE!
02:05:30 <oklopol> i haven't yet gotten acquinted (<- fix my word) with plof
02:05:35 <oklopol> but prolly soon
02:05:59 <oklopol> is there a graphics library for plof? :P
02:06:04 <Pikhq> No.
02:06:12 <Pikhq> Are you willing to make one?
02:06:31 <oklopol> sure, but i can't, since that's not what i do
02:06:43 <oklopol> i mean, i'd love to make one
02:06:44 <Pikhq> If you want to call an existing one, either make a better C calling interface, or use dlcall and friends. . .
02:06:46 <oklopol> but can't
02:07:34 <oklopol> does plof have c-import?
02:08:08 <Pikhq> No, it's *current* external call interface is via the dlcall functions.
02:08:17 <oklopol> dlcall?
02:08:27 <oklopol> you're talking to a noob, remember that
02:09:01 <Pikhq> dlcall is a function which lets you dynamicly load libraries and call functions in them.
02:09:09 <Pikhq> Bit of a pain to use.
02:09:17 <oklopol> why exactly?
02:09:36 <oklopol> dlcall("okofok.dll","get_number_4")
02:09:39 <oklopol> ?
02:09:42 <Pikhq> Pull up the man page; you'll see whay fairly soon.
02:09:54 <oklopol> it is not like that?
02:10:03 <Pikhq> It's *close*, but more annoying.
02:10:10 <oklopol> well, why not make it like that?
02:10:31 <Pikhq> Because the dlcall functions are pretty much thin wrappers around the C version. . .
02:10:42 <GregorR> Because that would involve a lookup every time you dlcall'd a function.
02:10:52 <GregorR> Which, in a language is inefficient as Plof, is a nonissue :P
02:10:53 <Pikhq> That too.
02:11:05 <oklopol> this is why you could have new dlcaller("okofok.dll")
02:11:13 <oklopol> if i understood you correctly
02:11:15 <Pikhq> oklopol: That's a lot closer.
02:11:17 <oklopol> which i never seem to do
02:11:41 <Pikhq> dlopen("file.so");
02:12:08 <oklopol> var a=new dlcaller("okofok.dll");a.call("get_number_4");
02:12:10 <Pikhq> Err.
02:12:13 <oklopol> why not like htat?
02:12:15 <oklopol> htht
02:12:39 <Pikhq> Hmm. Actually, that'd be a fairly easy object to make. . .
02:12:43 <oklopol> yes
02:12:47 <oklopol> so why not make it?
02:13:11 <Pikhq> Because I'd rather make a better interface.
02:14:06 <oklopol> it could also have things like a.store_function_as("get_number_2","1"); and then a.call_quick("2") in case that would provide any speedup
02:14:18 <oklopol> okay
02:14:32 <oklopol> *"1" or course
02:16:27 <oklopol> assuming ^ is xor, what would that mean for two sets?
02:16:51 <oklopol> | is union, & is intersection
02:17:13 <oklopol> heh
02:17:19 <oklopol> that was trivial
02:17:20 <oklopol> sorry
02:17:48 <oklopol> wow
02:18:56 <oklopol> + makes sence for lists, while - doesn't, whereas both make sence for sets, but | can be used for their addition
02:19:22 <oklopol> so... everyone's happy and no distinction need be made between sets and lists
02:38:30 <ihope> So - only sort of makes sense?
02:41:48 <oklopol> whaddya mean?
02:42:22 <oklopol> agr + r = agrr, agr | r = agr
02:42:34 <oklopol> agr - r = ag
02:42:49 <oklopol> so lists can be used as sets
02:42:52 <oklopol> in this case
03:57:51 <oklopol> it turns out you can actually reset every operator in oklotalk without any harm done... since every operator is essentially just the empty lambda {}
03:58:19 <oklopol> they are just overloaded by everyone
03:58:25 <oklopol> because they are slaves
03:58:37 <oklopol> filthy, filthy slaves
03:58:47 <oklopol> sun is rising... better get some sleep
03:58:55 <oklopol> nah
04:02:33 <ihope> You do sound a little tired.
04:02:48 <ihope> /time to the rescue!
04:04:05 <ihope> Egad. You're seven hours ahead of me, meaning... well, hmm.
04:05:21 <oklopol> it's sex o'clock
04:05:52 <ihope> SEE HOW TIRED YOU ARE? HUH?
04:07:09 <oklopol> i have some ed (energy drink none know) in the fridge
04:07:32 <oklopol> but it might be nice to get _some_ sleep
04:07:58 <oklopol> then again, i will not wake up before 15:00 if i go to sleep now
04:08:10 <oklopol> and if i wait till tonight, i'll sleep the whole sunday
04:08:53 <oklopol> i'll see what happens
04:10:00 <ihope> Why do you need to not sleep now?
04:10:27 <oklopol> i'm writing a spec for oklotalk... finally decided to begin with it
04:11:06 <oklopol> it's much less fun when i'm not tired
04:11:23 <ihope> I see.
04:11:40 <ihope> So it's much more fun when you're tired.
04:12:11 <oklopol> well deduced.
04:12:36 <ihope> Thank you.
04:14:48 <oklopol> well, if i'm sleepy tired, it does not work; only 'hehe poo' sleepy is good for programming
04:14:57 <oklopol> hehe poo xD
04:15:45 <oklopol> it's fun because it's poisonous
04:18:36 <ihope> Contagious, you mean?
04:18:48 <oklopol> why would i mean that?
04:19:03 <oklopol> i was quoting zoidberg
04:19:52 <ihope> Oh.
04:20:01 <ihope> What's that?
04:20:14 <oklopol> have you watched futurama?
04:20:35 <ihope> Nope.
04:20:37 <oklopol> i've seen it about three times
04:20:45 <oklopol> anyway
04:20:50 <oklopol> the doctor of the ship
04:20:53 <oklopol> great characer
04:20:58 <oklopol> *character
04:21:16 <oklopol> a giant crab
04:21:20 <oklopol> or something
04:23:34 <ihope> I see.
04:24:42 <oklopol> why contagious?
04:24:53 <oklopol> ah
04:24:58 <oklopol> took me a while :)
04:45:27 <oklopol> okay, now sleep --->
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12:25:58 <oklopol> i had a lucid dream i did some serious flooding on this channel
12:26:30 <oklopol> but i had to stop when i suddenly started spinning around in the air
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16:17:05 <Pikhq> I have a dream. . . A dream of a day where BFM has a test suite, so that I can actually figure out which language-specific macros are failing. . .
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17:13:14 * Pikhq now sees that he's got a bug which involves the itoa call. . .
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17:20:44 <Pikhq> What's odd is that there *shouldn't* be anything wrong with that call.
17:22:26 <oerjan> you know you _could_ cheat and include a debug print command
17:23:32 <Pikhq> oerjan: Or I could do lang {printf("%i", random_cell);}
17:24:05 <Pikhq> Only *useful* if the target language is C (which it is ATM). . .
17:24:44 * Pikhq is just getting frustrated that the C backend works, but the C-specific macros don't
17:25:37 <oerjan> have you looked at the C output?
17:26:27 <Pikhq> I have.
17:26:34 <Pikhq> It *looks* right.
17:27:08 <Pikhq> So far, I've been able to figure out that the issue is not in optimize.tcl
17:29:25 <Pikhq> Nor is the issue in c/copy.bfm or c/move.bfm
17:32:12 <oerjan> well, can you find the first point at which a variable does not have the expected contents?
17:32:32 <Pikhq> Found the issue.
17:32:37 <Pikhq> c/subvar.bfm is broken.
17:32:45 <oerjan> ok
17:33:44 <Pikhq> Now just to figure out *how* it's broken.
17:34:04 <Pikhq> Ah. Storing in y, not x.
17:36:39 <Pikhq> Seems that I'm also triggering a bug any time that more than two digits are needed from itoa.bfm -_-'
17:36:59 <Pikhq> Specifically, an infinite loop.
17:48:41 <Pikhq> *That* much is broken in my optimization pass.
17:54:50 <Pikhq> Fixed.
18:02:05 <Pikhq> Now, if I can just figure out how divvar.bfm and divmod.bfm are borken. . .
18:02:26 <Pikhq> Got it.
18:06:21 <Pikhq> . . . Except that it fails when it goes beyond 128.
18:06:33 <Pikhq> p+=/.(;
18:06:39 <Pikhq> Unless you think that looks like 128 to you.
18:06:59 <oerjan> a remarkable likeness.
18:08:12 * Pikhq blames div(); from stdlib
18:08:41 <oerjan> i note that those characters are just _below_ "0". maybe it is subtracting rather than adding.
18:09:26 <oerjan> indeed they are 48-1, 48-2, 48-8
18:10:16 <oerjan> are you using signed chars?
18:10:23 <Pikhq> I'm using just "char".
18:10:37 <Pikhq> Which can be either signed or unsigned. . .
18:10:38 <Pikhq> *groan*
18:10:49 <Pikhq> It's probably doing a sign change there.
18:12:08 <Pikhq> Any clue what you have to pass to gcc to tell it to treat chars as unsigned?
18:12:19 <Pikhq> (just so I can see if that's what's causing it)
18:12:19 <oerjan> _all_ chars? no.
18:12:39 <oerjan> but you can of course replace char by unsigned char
18:12:43 <Pikhq> -funsigned-char
18:13:04 <Pikhq> That fixes it.
18:14:45 <Pikhq> Hmm. . . Now, what other macros shall I rewrite?
18:15:13 <oerjan> for what purpose?
18:15:52 <Pikhq> I'm making some C-specific macros (in stdlib/c/), to take advantage of my new language-specific macros feature; this should allow for faster output code.
18:16:21 * Pikhq should do the same for the interpreter; that's the slowest backend of them all
18:29:51 <Pikhq> Well, the C backend is probably the most efficient one. . .
18:32:36 <Pikhq> Basm takes 0.18 seconds to compile LostKng.b with it.
18:34:02 * SimonRC finds some fake double-RAS-syndrome: "Dynamic DNS Server"
18:34:16 <Pikhq> 0.17s without newlines.
18:34:18 <SimonRC> Pikhq: you ported LK from BFBASIC to BASM?!
18:34:35 <Pikhq> SimonRC: Basm is my Brainfuck compiler.
18:34:41 <Pikhq> And I should rename it.
18:34:42 <SimonRC> ah, ok
18:35:00 <SimonRC> Pikhq: Is the source online anywhere?
18:35:26 <Pikhq> SimonRC: Yes. . .
18:35:33 <Pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/basm.tar.bz2
18:35:35 <SimonRC> where?
18:35:37 <Pikhq> Requires bfm:
18:35:37 <SimonRC> ok
18:35:45 <Pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bfm.tar.bz2
18:35:56 <Pikhq> (my new BFM improvements will be up as soon as I'm done)
18:36:22 <Pikhq> *That* tarball is up to date, except for the language-specific macros feature (not *needed* for basm; just makes it run faster)
18:37:33 <SimonRC> So, what does it actally do? BF -> C?
18:38:15 <Pikhq> Basm does, yes.
18:38:54 <Pikhq> BFM does BFFM->(Brainfuck,C,interpret)
18:39:11 <Pikhq> . . . And apparently, GCC is a friggin' memory hog when it tries to compile LostKng.c
18:39:24 <SimonRC> # I'm going to rise and dawn // with no clothes on // and colours on my skin. // Colours of life and love // from heaven above // absolve me of my sin. #
18:39:40 <SimonRC> Pikhq: could be the interference graphs that do it.
18:39:54 <SimonRC> -- "Ode to Crayola" by Lemon Demon
18:40:09 <Pikhq> SimonRC: Um, why would that matter? -O0. . .
18:40:17 <SimonRC> ah, ok
18:44:08 <SimonRC> what is the difference between the "-1" files and the "0" files
18:47:46 <Pikhq> basm.-1.b and basm.0.b were compiled with different assumptions for what EOF iis.
18:47:56 <SimonRC> ah, of course
18:48:12 <Pikhq> basm.0.b assumes EOF=0 or no change, and the code it outputs provide for that.
18:48:27 <SimonRC> yeah
18:48:45 <Pikhq> I bet the issue with my memory-hogging compiler is just that 4.1 is a bit more memory-using.
18:49:39 <Pikhq> Mmkay, gcc-3.4.6 is using a lot of memory as well, but it's not thrashing.
18:49:41 <SimonRC> If it becomes inconvinient, you could try asking the devs.
18:49:50 <Pikhq> . . . And it finished in 30 seconds.
18:49:57 <SimonRC> gcc should support generated code as well as human-written stuff
18:50:05 <Pikhq> SimonRC: I spent 5 minutes trying to get gcc-4.1.2 to stop.
18:50:10 <SimonRC> !!
18:50:22 <Pikhq> It was thrashing that damned much.
18:50:29 <Pikhq> (and I've got 1G of RAM)
18:50:33 <SimonRC> Pikhq: you could try making major lops into their own subroutines.
18:50:53 <Pikhq> In basm?
18:50:57 <Pikhq> Jeeze. . .
18:51:07 <Pikhq> Sorry, but I'd rather not do that *in Brainfuck*.
18:51:27 <SimonRC> Well, if your compiler wasn't written in BF, admittedly it would be sensible.
18:51:36 <Pikhq> It would be.
18:51:47 <Pikhq> Of course, I think the issue lies more in GCC.
18:51:55 * SimonRC contemplates writing one in Haskell.
18:52:07 <Pikhq> Honestly. . . 700MB RAM for 2MB of code?!?
18:52:15 <SimonRC> heh
18:52:55 <SimonRC> Maybe it's trying to analyse the array usage to see if it can do some of it in registers.
18:53:16 <Pikhq> . . . But *why* do that for -O0?!?
18:53:31 <SimonRC> seriously, ask the devs if they know what is making it do that, and if you can turn it off
18:54:03 <SimonRC> I think using 700MB of RAM for a 2MB file at -O0 counts as a bug.
18:54:33 <SimonRC> depends what -O0 actually does.
18:54:51 <SimonRC> or rather, how optimisations get turned off
18:55:19 <SimonRC> if (e.g.) it is building data-flow graphs then throwing them away again, -O0 won't help memry usage much
18:56:26 <GregorR> Um ... it depends on what that 2MB of code is doing.
18:56:40 <SimonRC> compiled BF
18:56:44 <Pikhq> GregorR: It's a somewhat naive translation of LostKng.b into C
18:56:57 <Pikhq> Whole lot of pointer arithmetic.
18:56:58 <GregorR> Why not just use EgoBFC? ;)
18:57:10 <Pikhq> Because then I wouldn't be testing my *own* compiler.
18:57:30 <GregorR> 's called a joke :P
19:08:51 <oklopol> oerjan: what's a "speech" in norwegian? or if anyone knows swedish, in that.
19:09:16 <oerjan> tale
19:09:45 <oklopol> hmm... you don't happen to know what it is in swedish? :P
19:09:45 <oklopol> hmm
19:09:47 <oklopol> actually
19:09:51 <oklopol> it's that prolly
19:11:31 <oerjan> actually i think swedish is "tal"
19:12:19 <oerjan> www.tal.se
19:12:38 <oklopol> well, i don't think it makes that much difference... i'm not that good
19:13:01 <oklopol> but i'll put tal
19:13:22 <oerjan> the swedish is neuter, the norwegian is masculine
19:15:31 <oklopol> hmm
19:15:45 <oklopol> en = which?
19:16:05 <oklopol> en / ett, but masculine, neuter and feminine
19:16:10 <oklopol> how come?
19:16:46 <oerjan> i don't think swedish has masculine/feminine distinction
19:17:15 <oerjan> norwegian: en (m), ei (f), et (n)
19:17:29 <oklopol> i meant norwegian
19:17:37 <oklopol> and i though you have just two articles
19:17:41 <oklopol> but i was wrong it seems
19:18:50 <oerjan> no but the feminine is relatively rare in bokml
19:20:09 <oerjan> in the most conservative forms they use en for that too
19:21:33 <oerjan> (but still with -a definite ending unless it is even more conservative)
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20:38:31 * SimonRC wonders WTF ever one of his windows processes has a PID that is a multiple of 4
20:38:39 <SimonRC> XP, in case you were wondering
20:40:24 <ihope_> Security, of course.
20:40:44 <SimonRC> :-S
20:40:57 <ihope_> If one of the PIDs weren't a multiple of 4, that process could obviously hack into your system and destroy everything.
20:41:52 <ihope_> See, there's always a process with a PID of 4, maybe, so PID arithmetic would allow such a process to attain a PID of 1, which is omnipotent.
20:42:06 <ihope_> Actually, 2 and 3 are omnipotent as well. But 4 isn't, which is why they chose that.
20:42:17 <SimonRC> sigh
20:42:28 <ihope_> Sigh?
20:42:38 <oerjan> i note that some of the processes clearly have specially assigned numbers
20:42:50 <oerjan> e.g. IEXPLORE = 2500
20:46:34 <SimonRC> not here it doesn't
20:46:43 <SimonRC> probably just random
20:47:16 <oerjan> i just cannot believe that.
20:48:26 <SimonRC> ok
20:48:37 <SimonRC> kill it and re-start, to see if it gets the same PID
20:48:41 <SimonRC> re-try a few times
20:50:31 * Pikhq should learn asm. . .
20:50:48 <oerjan> whoops, you were right, now it is 2880
20:51:43 <oerjan> and 2576
20:51:47 <SimonRC> hah
20:52:10 <SimonRC> # Go and fake your death ok? // 'Cause I am not here I am not here. #
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21:05:57 <Pikhq> . . . Meh.
21:06:20 <SimonRC> [[j$++=]~{f2%}@a2@a1@a0!!~]&a,.
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21:27:24 <bsmntbombdood> oklopol: a lucid dream and the best you can do is irc?
21:28:02 <oklopol> i did other stuff too
21:28:07 <oklopol> it lasted like 2 hours
21:28:33 <oerjan> "ok, let me first check on the irc channels..."
21:29:17 <oklopol> basically i flew around, had sex, killed people and woke up for a few minutes at random, but at some point i wasn't really sure whether i was asleep or not, so i thought i'd flood a bit to have proof later
21:30:07 <oerjan> i _think_ it might have been an idea to do the proof thing before you started killing people :D
21:30:30 <oklopol> flying was the only unrealistic thing i could do
21:30:42 <oklopol> i knew that because i was in a place i'
21:30:47 <oklopol> ve never seen
21:30:51 <oklopol> in the middle of the night
21:31:07 <oklopol> whereas i could easily have woken up in the night and been in my room
21:32:27 <oklopol> once i had this lucid dream that just kept on going for hours, or so it seemed, every time i woke up, something came and killed me, and i couldn't wake up for real
21:33:16 <oklopol> and this other time i sat around a table while dinosaur played card there... and tried to wake up but couldn'y
21:33:24 <oklopol> i could write a book about my dreams
21:34:24 <oerjan> i used to have dreams about trying to wake up but not so much nowadays
21:35:01 <bsmntbombdood> the other night i had a dream with at least 5 levels of recursion
21:35:47 <oklopol> heh, the best one was so long that when i woke up i took a one hour long walk just to be sure i was awake :)
21:35:49 <Pikhq> var dream = :{dream();}
21:35:50 <Pikhq> ?
21:36:06 <bsmntbombdood> falling asleep inside the dream and having another dream
21:36:10 <oklopol> yeah
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22:11:06 <SimonRC> bastard
22:11:10 <SimonRC> you have lucid dreams
22:11:30 <Pikhq> Called "life".
22:11:35 <SimonRC> no
22:11:47 <SimonRC> with lucid dreaming you can fly
22:11:51 <bsmntbombdood> Pikhq: you can fly in life?
22:12:14 <Pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Sure, thanks to the Brothers Wright.
22:12:23 <SimonRC> no, not like that
22:12:30 <bsmntbombdood> fly without a machine
22:13:05 <bsmntbombdood> i've flown in dreams, not lucid ones though
22:13:23 <SimonRC> I can kinda do it, but not at will, and I lack the skill to go on for mare than about 10 perceived second without waking up.
22:13:34 <SimonRC> maybe planning would help
22:13:42 <SimonRC> thinking about it all the time
22:13:59 <SimonRC> my instincts tell me that Cosmic Ordering would be very effective
22:14:02 <bsmntbombdood> i've had one lucid dream, but i got woken up about 2 seconds into it
22:14:08 <oklopol> SimonRC: i usually wake up as well, once i realize it's a dream
22:14:27 <oklopol> it's rare that it lasts long
22:14:43 <SimonRC> maybe maybe maybe you must plan what you are going to do to stop yourself getting over-excited and waking up#
22:15:15 <oklopol> or do like me and drink so much caffeine you can't fall asleep and still try to
22:15:26 <oklopol> gives nice lucids
22:15:37 <SimonRC> (BTW, Cosmic Ordering is named after the type of ordering that ne does in, say, a restaurant, rather than being orderly.)
22:15:42 <bsmntbombdood> i've given up caffeine
22:15:51 <SimonRC> oklopol: nah, I just get weird dreams then
22:16:23 <oklopol> guess it varies... there are many ways ppl say you get lucid dreams for sure
22:16:31 <oklopol> but they all require a change in lifestyle
22:16:41 <oklopol> well, sleeping routines
22:16:48 <oklopol> and daily routines something
22:16:53 <oklopol> *sometimes
22:21:11 <SimonRC> oh
22:21:23 <SimonRC> I was following the advice on Everything2
22:21:35 <SimonRC> or rather, that of which that I could recall
22:22:11 <SimonRC> And, as in many ares of my life, the bits that I can recall are really just the ones I believed already.
22:22:39 <SimonRC> Godsdamnit that feeling of things slipping away from me when I disagree with them is so annoying.
22:23:13 <SimonRC> I read an opinion contrary to mind, and within a few hours, I can remember barely any of it.
22:23:38 <SimonRC> If I read an opinion I agree with, I can recall it much better.
22:23:45 <bsmntbombdood> yeah
22:23:50 <SimonRC> Y'know...
22:24:11 <SimonRC> Maybe this happens to almost everyone in the world, but most of them don't notice it...
22:24:18 <SimonRC> That would explain a lot of things.
22:24:21 <SimonRC> :-)
22:24:28 <SimonRC> (Ha, ha, only serious.)
22:25:44 <oerjan> Of course, I already believed that.
22:26:26 <oerjan> Or rather, i was assuming people usually don't notice things they don't believe in in the first place.
22:28:31 <SimonRC> Does not apply to the really obvious stuff, of course, but Adams and PTerry were only exaggerating a bit.
22:31:16 <oerjan> but then on another level i also believe some things don't physically happen to people who don't believe them.
22:37:14 * oerjan starts wondering if anyone even saw his last comment :D
22:37:38 <oklopol> i see all
22:52:00 <SimonRC> hm
22:52:14 <SimonRC> that sounds iffy
22:52:17 <SimonRC> give example
22:55:17 <Pikhq> http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/Pickover/pc/cnn_shuttle.jpg
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23:38:46 <SimonRC> Pikhq: lol
23:40:10 <bsmntbombdood> lofl
23:40:49 <bsmntbombdood> 18 times the speed of light!!!
23:41:35 <ehird`> (speed of light in a vacuum)^(speed of light in a vacuum)
23:41:35 <ehird`> = big
23:41:45 <ehird`> it's true!
23:42:41 <bsmntbombdood> not really
23:42:47 <ehird`> well
23:42:50 <ehird`> not big
23:42:54 <ehird`> but big if you're moving at that speed!
23:42:59 <bsmntbombdood> (1 lightyear/year)^(1 lightyear/year)
23:43:14 <SimonRC> :-S http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sfo/278240458.html
23:43:45 <oerjan> if that ^ is supposed to be exponentiation, then that is a dimension error
23:43:47 <SimonRC> But honestly, "Atlas"?!
23:44:13 * SimonRC uses a gensym.
23:44:14 <SimonRC> ;-)
23:44:53 <bsmntbombdood> yeah, exponenents should be unitless
23:45:16 <SimonRC> and usually integral, for the units' sake
23:45:22 <oklopol> nothing beats making a trivia bot and watching it own
23:45:54 <SimonRC> (^) :: (Num a, Integral b) => a -> b -> a
23:45:58 <ehird`> nothing beats making a stupid idiotic chatting bot and watching it run on itself
23:46:21 <SimonRC> where?
23:46:22 <oklopol> nah
23:46:23 <ehird`> and hoping it enters an infinite loop soon
23:46:29 <SimonRC> did you put it on #debain-flame
23:46:32 <ehird`> haha
23:46:35 <oklopol> markov chains are the best non preprogrammed bots i've seen
23:46:35 <bsmntbombdood> Wet, linty, and stupid is no way to start your day.
23:46:36 <ehird`> no, xterm
23:46:39 <oklopol> and they are not good
23:46:48 <ehird`> (maybe i'll cheat - "repeat this phrase" = "repeat this phrase")
23:46:56 <SimonRC> #debian-flame doesn't exist, but it fits their naming scheme and conversational topics
23:46:56 <oklopol> SimonRC: quakenet and a finnish channel
23:46:56 <ehird`> and often requests to say "repeat this phrase"
23:47:24 <oklopol> except i don't think that was for me
23:48:08 <bsmntbombdood> and where are the "topless picture posting hotties"?
23:48:44 <ehird`> "Why dont the IRC:s comply with Macintosh or is this problem occurring with my comp. only?"
23:52:06 <ihope_> What's this Macintosh compliance all about?
23:52:16 <Pikhq> bsmntbombdood: The units on your c^c is, of course, 1 (lightyear/year)^(lightyear/year). . . Which is, of course, a fairly large unit.
23:53:50 <oerjan> large compared to what?
23:54:25 <oerjan> hint: you need something of the same unit to compare with
23:56:49 <ihope_> c^c is large?
23:56:55 <ihope_> What if c is actually very, very small?
23:57:15 <oerjan> every relativistic physicist knows that c = 1 :)
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