←2007-05-29 2007-05-30 2007-05-31→ ↑2007 ↑all
00:00:44 * ehird` forgets about making the compiler optimized for now
00:01:04 <SimonRC> are any of you "kopaka649" on digg?
00:01:19 <SimonRC> 'cause he is mentioning the Wiki and is at +1 digs ATM
00:01:32 <oklopol> basically i'm watching you people do stuff and try to feel like i'm doing something as well... perhaps a little futurama would help ->
00:01:42 <bsmntbombdood> i am become digg, waster of time
00:02:32 * ehird` wonders what type to make the unlimitedtape
00:02:34 <ehird`> long?
00:03:15 * SimonRC was kicked from #esoteric [kicked: "No LOLCODE!"]
00:03:49 <oklopol> <non fetish> i just realized Uberman is like the coolest name ever </non fetish>
00:04:56 <SimonRC> I assumed that it had the literal German meaning: Uber + man, rather than being someone's name, initially
00:05:34 <ehird`> bf.c:11: error: ‘c’ undeclared (first use in this function)
00:05:35 <bsmntbombdood> \"Uberman
00:05:36 <ehird`> wtf
00:05:38 <ehird`> i did declare it
00:05:58 <bsmntbombdood> SimonRC: that's what it is, isn't it?
00:06:01 <ehird`> oh
00:06:02 <ehird`> right
00:06:48 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: which?
00:06:59 <bsmntbombdood> uber+man
00:07:22 <Pikhq> ehird`: Hrm? What self-hosting compiler?
00:09:32 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: yes
00:09:48 <SimonRC> But it turned out be someone's name
00:09:53 <bsmntbombdood> it is?
00:10:28 <ehird`> Pikhq: In your language.
00:10:47 <Pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pfuck-1.0.tar.bz2
00:11:04 <Pikhq> make PEBBLE=path-to-pebble
00:11:47 <SimonRC> Maybe I am expecting too much of them to think about any compiler stage beyond the fecking parser
00:11:57 <Pikhq> SimonRC: Maybe.
00:12:16 <SimonRC> LOOK I HAS PARSER!
00:12:37 <Pikhq> No, no, no.
00:12:40 <Pikhq> HAS PARSER?
00:12:40 <SimonRC> WUT IZ TEH SIMANTICS?
00:12:43 <Pikhq> PARSE!
00:12:47 <ehird`> Lolcode people are retarded get over it
00:13:04 <SimonRC> no, they are amatures
00:13:09 <SimonRC> extreremyl so
00:13:37 <lament> just shut up about lolcode already
00:13:52 <SimonRC> erm, ok
00:13:53 <Pikhq> Yeah. . .
00:14:21 <bsmntbombdood> good plan
00:14:28 <bsmntbombdood> NOOO THEY BE TAKING MY LOLCODE
00:14:36 <SimonRC> :-S
00:14:53 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65853
00:14:55 <ehird`> that's too long for a BF compiler!
00:14:58 <ehird`> well. at least it dynamically reallocates the tape
00:15:04 <ehird`> oops
00:15:06 <ehird`> i borked it
00:15:21 <Pikhq> ehird`: You've obviously not seen Gregor's Brainfuck compiler.
00:15:37 <bsmntbombdood> that's not too long
00:15:40 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65854
00:15:41 <ehird`> there
00:16:07 <ehird`> now - for lang->bf compiler stage one
00:16:21 <bsmntbombdood> and it's broken too
00:16:28 <ehird`> is it
00:16:29 <bsmntbombdood> you need to allocate tape
00:16:32 <ehird`> i did
00:16:35 <ehird`> i fixed it
00:16:37 <ehird`> see one place above
00:16:43 <Pikhq> ehird`: http://esolangs.org/files/brainfuck/impl/egobf-0.7.1.tar.bz2 Now *this* is a long Brainfuck implementation.
00:16:44 <ehird`> http://pastie.textmate.org/65854
00:16:51 <bsmntbombdood> oh wait
00:16:53 <bsmntbombdood> nevermind
00:17:29 <ehird`> wtfzzor..... my hello world doesn't print
00:18:06 <ehird`> oops
00:18:09 <ehird`> i don't handle loops!!
00:18:13 <Pikhq> ehird`: Your tape expansion bit should be inside the compiled code, not in the compiler.
00:18:27 <ehird`> Pikhq: Yes, loops will require that
00:18:31 <ehird`> It's just -- it'll be every > executed
00:18:34 <ehird`> Might be a lot of overhead.
00:18:41 <Pikhq> Otherwise, stuff like >,[>,]<[.<] will be broken.
00:19:21 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder, if you could tell the os to sigsegv when you overan some memory
00:19:26 <bsmntbombdood> probably not
00:19:32 <ehird`> yes, make it a random int
00:19:49 * oerjan gives up
00:19:52 <Pikhq> No, even better. . .
00:19:55 <ehird`> oerjan: :(
00:20:02 <bsmntbombdood> make the tape be highest in the program's memory, then catch sigsegv and expand the tape then
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00:20:30 <Pikhq> int tmp=*(int *)NULL;
00:20:39 <oerjan> i just realized i cannot use \1 in the replacement without full fledged eval
00:20:45 <Pikhq> There. Instant SIGSEGV.
00:20:59 <bsmntbombdood> Pikhq: clearly
00:21:15 <SimonRC> hmm
00:21:29 <Pikhq> Of course, you could just *send* SIGSEGV. . . It is, after all, a normal signal.
00:21:48 <bsmntbombdood> actually, you would just fuck malloc's bookeeping data before you went outside of the allowed memory
00:21:52 <bsmntbombdood> so that doesn't work
00:21:52 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65855
00:21:59 <ehird`> OK - now i just have to do loops
00:22:00 <ehird`> not hard
00:22:13 <ehird`> considering i don't need to do any checking
00:22:16 <ehird`> just while () { }
00:22:26 <oerjan> anyway what i did do is at http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/ehird.pl
00:22:41 <oerjan> but as said, it doesn't handle \1 properly
00:23:29 <ehird`> :)
00:23:36 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65856
00:23:44 <ehird`> expanding-no-checking-infinite-tape-brainfuck-to-c-compiler.
00:24:53 <ehird`> now, let's think how to use the brainfuck tape.
00:24:55 * ehird` ponders
00:25:31 * ehird` ponders things... "use plain BF integers? or add some type headers?"
00:29:25 * oerjan commented out debug statement and added a short header comment
00:30:50 <lament> brainfuck-to-c-compiler?
00:30:53 <lament> how exciting.
00:31:30 <bsmntbombdood> indeed it is
00:31:57 <ehird`> i needed it according to certain specs
00:32:04 <ehird`> including overflow warnings, infinite tape etc
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00:46:12 <oklopol> <SimonRC> I assumed that it had the literal German meaning: Uber + man, rather than being someone's name, initially <<< 1. actually über in german 2. i don't think a name is worse if it's a name
00:46:36 * Pikhq is going to call his system "fucked up". . .
00:46:56 <Pikhq> (that, I believe, is the scientific name for "How the hell is that segfaulting?!?")
00:47:16 <oklopol> 2:45... 6 h till test \o/
00:47:25 <oklopol> and this time not something easy like math
00:47:35 <oklopol> i have to do like a speech or something
00:47:37 <oklopol> :\
00:47:39 <bsmntbombdood> you really like pushing it
00:47:51 <SimonRC> i will tell you the secret to doing a speech
00:47:56 <SimonRC> It's quite simple...
00:48:00 <oklopol> please do
00:48:05 <SimonRC> you get very interested in the subject.
00:48:17 * Pikhq goes to drive his middle fingers through the drive platters
00:48:32 <SimonRC> enough so that you start monologuing at strangers in pubs about the subject...
00:49:07 <SimonRC> you prepare a presentation by giving the speech and thinking at each point "what slide would make this bit clearer"
00:49:12 <oklopol> we did speeches already... everyone else did 1-2 min, a few 5 min, i did 10... and failed :) apparently my ideas weren't good and it's very important to look at the audience.
00:49:18 <SimonRC> thereby adding diagrams, equations, examples, etc
00:49:32 <bsmntbombdood> now, do all of that in 6hrs
00:49:34 <SimonRC> if you don't like the subject you will have problems
00:50:05 <oklopol> well, the subject was basically "improving your surroundings"
00:50:06 <Pikhq> *Fuck*.
00:50:08 <Pikhq> [1] 7729 segmentation fault sudo emerge -av glibc
00:50:13 <oklopol> i had about a million ideas about it
00:50:47 <oklopol> got the worst grade
00:51:26 <oklopol> i admit my ideas might not interest most people
00:51:30 <SimonRC> Pikhq: not today thanks
00:51:33 <oklopol> and i did not once look at the audience
00:51:55 <oklopol> but otherwise it was great
00:52:15 <oklopol> okay, sleep now, i'll have to wake up in 3 hours and make the german essay
00:52:30 <oklopol> but i won't, i'll sleep till 10 and fail the course \o/
00:52:32 <oklopol> great
00:52:34 <oklopol> ----------->
00:52:52 <bsmntbombdood> my sleepyness has turned into delerium and slight drowsyness and euphoria
00:54:31 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: good luck
00:54:34 <SimonRC> when did you start?
00:55:04 <bsmntbombdood> tonight is my 3rd night
00:56:54 <bsmntbombdood> so, saturday i started
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09:11:54 <oklopol> hmm... i wonder if "import Std ! Graphics ! Line Kthx;" is a good syntax for importing Line :P
09:12:52 <bsmntbombdood> i am greatly traumatized now that i've learned that natalie portman has a finite erdos number
09:12:53 <aarcane> oklopol, which language ?
09:12:56 <oklopol> I need something to tell it the line is ending, because i want import to abide by the same rules as others
09:12:58 <oklopol> oklotalk
09:12:59 <oklopol> :)
09:13:27 <aarcane> hrrm
09:13:48 <oklopol> import Std ! Graphics ! Line as Line; will work fine though
09:14:18 <aarcane> Kthx is a good terminator, but you shouldn't terminate with ; unless you want to terminate with ; always. \n is usually a pretty safe terminator
09:14:19 <oklopol> "import" and "as" are just primitive functions <3
09:14:37 <oklopol> ; terminates if termination is necessary
09:15:03 <oklopol> i do not want to rely on ws, since i'm simultaneously designing an ide, and it... does things :)
09:16:21 <oklopol> ; terminates the line, but no one tells that to import, so import is left waiting for more submodules to come
09:17:42 <oklopol> actually, \n will probably be one way to end lines, since i reckon haskell uses both and it's a kinda good language
09:17:56 <oklopol> but i don't know how exactly it does that
09:18:01 <oklopol> prolly easy once i think about it
09:18:51 <oklopol> ah
09:19:35 <oklopol> "import Std!Graphich as Public" or something might be a good way to "import *"
09:19:47 <oklopol> *cs
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15:21:47 <oklopol> * Pikhq wants a death mode for Brainfuck. <<< on it!
15:44:06 <oklopol> okay, deadfuck is ready
15:44:44 <oklopol> deadfuck is also a brilliant piece from gorgasm, i recommend you listen to it
15:48:35 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure it's not tc, since i can't imagine what you can do with it... and there was an even worse deathmode that was quite similar, but i think it's proven non tc
15:49:52 <oklopol> basically, normal bitchanger, but you have to allocate each cell with X before you can do anything with it other than move over it
15:50:23 <oklopol> also, every time you allocate a cell at index n, you render all other cells divisible by n unallocatable
15:50:39 <oklopol> i mean, all other cells whose index is divisible by n
15:52:22 <oklopol> you get a nice finite memory bitchanger of n bits with ">{n} @{n} <{n}"
15:52:30 <oklopol> but dunno if it's tc
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20:31:54 <Pikhq> Say, would anyone here know of a good guide for learning x86 assembly?
20:33:43 <Pikhq> I need to learn a new esolang. ;)
21:12:42 <bsmntbombdood> i overslept by 7 hours this morning :(
21:23:57 <bsmntbombdood> my mom said she tried to wake me up and i (autonomously) told her i was stopping my sleep experiment
21:24:37 <lament> well, it's good you're still alive.
21:24:55 <bsmntbombdood> yeah, i'm stopping now
21:25:39 <bsmntbombdood> if my body can posses me to speak without my brain involved, i think it's pretty desperate
21:29:39 <lament> don't confuse your brain with your consciousness.
21:30:06 <lament> Consciousness is useful; however it tends to DRAMATICALLY overestimate its own importance
21:30:26 <lament> to the extent that people often think it's all they have
21:30:55 <bsmntbombdood> ok, if my brain can posses me to speak without _me_ involved
21:31:41 <lament> again, don't confuse "you" with your consciousness
21:31:55 <lament> "you" comprise much more than that
21:33:22 <lament> most of the things you do are done unconsciously
21:33:36 <bsmntbombdood> it's not me doing them
21:33:38 <lament> consciousness is a fairly limited tool
21:33:41 <lament> no, it is you
21:33:54 <bsmntbombdood> me is my consciousness
21:34:06 <bsmntbombdood> my unconsious is part of my body
21:34:17 <lament> you have a very strange notion of identity
21:35:23 <lament> i mean self-identity
21:35:33 <lament> you don't think your body is part of you?
21:36:16 <oerjan> sometimes i feel that way too.
21:36:25 <bsmntbombdood> sort of
21:36:39 <bsmntbombdood> i don't know, perhaps i'm still fucked up right now
21:37:08 <lament> oerjan: you mean like bsmntbombdood ?
21:50:14 <oerjan> like my body has a mind of its own and isn't me.
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21:51:08 <oerjan> i mean, the idea that your unconscious is you is basically dependent on defining you as the opposite of the outside world.
21:51:49 <lament> oerjan: do you define others as excluding their bodies?
21:51:53 <lament> i would assume not
21:52:27 <oerjan> my body _belongs_ to me, but whether it _is_ me is something else entirely.
21:52:47 <oerjan> and i see no problem with thinking that way of others.
21:52:51 <lament> well, consciousness is the part doing the thinking, so its a bit biased
21:53:05 <lament> in particular, as i said, it tends to overestimate its own importance
21:53:34 <oerjan> i don't think that is the same.
21:53:44 <lament> which could be really bad, but thankfully the rest of the mind just ignores it most of the time
21:54:01 <lament> consciousness is not a very effective system; for one, it's really, really slow
21:54:06 <oerjan> i mean my experience contains several parts. the outside world, my body, my unconscious and my conscious.
21:54:25 <oerjan> why should all except the outside world be considered a unit?
21:54:55 <lament> it's not a unit. it has parts.
21:55:23 <oerjan> but why should they be referred to by the word "me"?
21:55:52 <lament> practical reasons as a result of interaction with other people
21:55:54 <oerjan> for all i know the unconscious could be just as large as the outside world, and have parts in common with other people.
21:56:08 <oerjan> i.e. the collective unconscious idea
21:57:01 <oerjan> and if you try to determine which part of that is _me_ then you end up looking at which parts are closest to my consciousness.
21:57:38 <oerjan> so the conscious then becomes if not all of me then still the part defining what is me.
21:58:30 <lament> i'm not sure if this is relevant
21:58:42 <oerjan> on the other hand you _could_ use the body as the reference point.
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22:00:01 <oerjan> and some religions define the soul to be the real center, and distinct again from consciousness.
22:00:47 <oerjan> all i am saying is there are several options for defining what "me" is.
22:01:09 <lament> sure, but i think mine is the most pragmatic
22:01:23 <lament> i'm not interested in philosophy or religion
22:01:24 <oerjan> it is the one that works best for other people than me.
22:01:51 <lament> where 'pragmatic' means more or less 'suitable for human interaction'
22:02:26 <bsmntbombdood> human interaction is overrated
22:02:41 <lament> if you hit me, and claim being unconscious at the time, well, YOU still hit me.
22:03:18 <lament> human interaction is hard to overrate.
22:03:41 <lament> most of the higher mental functions were designed to accommodate it.
22:03:51 <lament> well, 'evolved'
22:03:52 <oerjan> well i am responsible for it. but then so would i be if you were harmed by some item i own.
22:04:10 <lament> oerjan: no, i'm saying "you hit me"
22:04:18 <lament> oerjan: would you really dispute that?
22:04:24 <lament> "It wasn't me, it was my arm"?
22:04:34 <oerjan> i am saying that it is merely a matter of definition of "me"
22:05:43 <oerjan> now say if i faint and fall onto you from a balcony.
22:06:33 <lament> right.
22:06:47 <lament> you just said "i faint and fall"
22:06:54 <oerjan> in that case my responsibility would not necessarily be larger than if something else had fallen onto you that i owned.
22:07:02 <lament> i don't care about responsibility.
22:07:10 <oerjan> i am restricted to using the definitions in English.
22:07:38 <lament> you just used "i" to include your body.
22:07:56 <lament> so we agree and shouldn't argue anymore :)
22:08:06 <oerjan> i suppose so.
22:08:23 <lament> obviously you can make a big philosophical issue out of this, and many people do
22:08:30 <lament> i just don't really see a point
22:10:24 <oerjan> just wait until you find yourself strongly disagreeing with your body :)
22:10:50 <oerjan> but then anyone who has been ill probably has experienced that
22:13:05 <lament> would you disagree that the definition that includes the unconscious and the body is the most suited for human interaction?
22:13:40 <oerjan> for _most_ human interaction.
22:13:57 <lament> sure.
22:14:10 <lament> that's why it's the one built into the language - language being a tool for human interaction.
22:16:05 <lament> in any case i just don't see any reason to single out the consciousness
22:16:37 <lament> there's a lot of stuff going on in the mind, consciousness is a part of it, but it's only a small part and only useful in certain situations
22:17:06 <SimonRC> The development of The Language That Shall Not Be Named is progressing at am amazing rate. Never before has an esolang had so much input by so many people in so short a time.
22:17:16 <SimonRC> It will be the ADA of esolangs.
22:17:32 <oerjan> SimonRC: what?
22:17:39 * lament screams LOLCODE and everybody shudders
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22:17:44 <SimonRC> !!
22:17:53 <oerjan> oh that
22:18:06 <lament> SimonRC: why are you bothered so
22:18:10 <SimonRC> The group are going to produce more text than any one designer could
22:18:13 <SimonRC> I am not
22:18:16 <SimonRC> I am fascinated
22:18:32 <SimonRC> no, correction
22:18:40 <SimonRC> I will be the PL/1 of esolangs.
22:18:56 * SimonRC polls the asynchronous toastie.
22:22:12 <SimonRC> yummy
22:28:14 <oerjan> Whee! http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/ehird.py
22:28:34 <oerjan> Now if just ehird was here...
←2007-05-29 2007-05-30 2007-05-31→ ↑2007 ↑all