2007-05-01: 00:00:29 "D f(y) y+3; print(f(2)*2)" ==> "[Syly 3 +Ly Zd>r] sf 2 lfx 2 * p" 00:05:25 * SimonRC curses the newsgroup alt.fan.dragons 00:05:59 I love to read it, but every time I read it my stomach starts churning. 00:05:59 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:06:06 I mean, WTF?! 00:06:15 Why, why, why? 00:06:29 Sgeo: you missed the context 00:06:37 00:03:37 * SimonRC curses the newsgroup alt.fan.dragons 00:06:37 00:04:11 < SimonRC> I love to read it, but every time I read it my stomach starts churning. 00:07:09 Sgeo, Misser of Context! 00:07:11 ty SimonRC 00:07:15 :D ihope 00:07:27 maybe I have a crush on it 00:07:29 :-P 00:09:36 yay, imitation bc 00:11:20 -!- calamari has joined. 00:11:27 hi 00:11:56 hi 00:11:58 SimonRC: so what's this about stomach churning? 00:12:26 I feel ill every time I read the newsgroup alt.fan.dragons 00:12:34 yet I love to read it 00:12:44 IT'S NOT FAIR 00:12:57 Why do you feel ill? 00:13:02 dunno 00:13:45 I know it is because the blood is being diverted away from my digestive system, like a f-o-f reaction, though my heart rate and breathing don't go up much. 00:14:35 but I don't know why the newsgroup (or rather, I suspect, the concept behind it) is causing that reaction in me 00:14:43 The concept behind it, eh? 00:16:06 RTFFAQ 00:16:49 hm, i guess if the conversation is mainly about grilling knoghts for dinner... (-:C 00:16:56 *knights 00:16:59 no 00:17:37 many of the peole there are Otherkin 00:17:48 I'm damned sure I'm not. 00:18:19 so basically you are envious because _you_ are not a dragon? 00:18:27 not really 00:19:39 I have always liked dragons, maybe it would be fun to be one 00:19:54 but WTF does the group have that effect on me? 00:22:18 Subconsciously envious? 00:22:33 Look in a mirror and see if your eyes are green. That's a sure-fire way to tell, maybe. 00:22:41 :-P 00:22:47 :-P indeed. 00:22:49 maybe it has something to do with my (partial) vorarephilia 00:23:05 ok maybe you didn't want to know about that 00:24:21 well does that too make your stomach churn? 00:24:50 no 00:25:04 Vore has ... other effects on me 00:26:03 aaarrrgh it can't parse x^2+1 00:26:29 SimonRC: love of devouring? 00:26:36 ihope: approximately 00:26:42 see wikipedia 00:27:02 or not, if you prefer 00:27:03 I see. 00:27:18 So is yours first-person, second-person, or third-person? 00:27:23 hee 00:27:26 heh 00:27:29 which is which? 00:27:46 First person is eating, second-person is being eaten, third-person is watching someone be eaten. 00:27:52 first person 00:27:58 Interesting. 00:28:27 That may have something to do with it. 00:28:30 slight inclination towards soft-vore 00:28:36 Soft-vore? 00:28:37 ihope: you think?!?!??!!?!?! 00:28:43 ihope: see wikipedia again 00:28:59 It means you don;t chew 00:29:01 :-P 00:29:17 Soft-vore is not chewing? 00:29:30 yeah 00:29:33 well reptiles do tend to swallow things whole, don't they? (-:C 00:29:47 Snakes come to mind as an example. 00:30:18 oerjan: is C the eyebrows there? 00:30:25 SimonRC: indeed, snakes do that. 00:30:29 no, the horns 00:31:02 Ah. 00:31:54 * SimonRC wonders why he is telling random people on the internet things his parents and close friends don't know 00:32:49 except for one 00:33:17 Ah, I have similar things. 00:33:21 Me too 00:33:22 ? 00:33:23 maybe it is not speaking about dragons per se, but rather finding others sharing a similar fetish 00:33:25 like? 00:33:42 oerjan: I don't *think* the dragon-liking is anything sexual 00:34:15 Oh, um... well, vorarephilia has some overlaps with it. 00:34:17 wow, [[vorarephilia]] has quite an active talk page for a one line article 00:42:21 There aught to be an Uncyclopedia article like that. 00:44:05 I think the UC article on dragons is necesary reading at this point 00:44:43 pikhq: sort of like Fisher Price? 00:45:34 http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Fisher_Price and http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Fisher_Price:_A_Retrospective 00:55:29 the reader is requested to go fellate a coprophilliac 00:56:58 Go "eat" those who fuck shit. 00:58:18 That's what i said 01:00:01 Yup. 01:00:18 Dragons tend to spontaneously implode when being huffed, especially the red ones. 01:04:55 _im_plode? 01:07:05 oerjan: makes them easier to huff, or something. 01:07:43 ah, it is just a trap, put there by devious dragons. 01:08:09 to _lure_ people into huffing them. 01:16:29 tricky little bastards 01:44:17 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vorarephilia&oldid=127070561 01:46:46 silly wikipedia 01:49:35 http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/UnNews:Theory_of_Sexual_Reproduction_revised (warning language) 01:49:39 * Sgeo wrote it 01:50:02 heh 01:50:44 Sgeo: ah, already read that 01:50:57 ..oh.. 01:52:39 but it's good though 01:52:44 are you on #uncyclopedia? 01:53:23 yes 01:53:28 ty 01:54:26 However, there are some fears that the discovery will lead people to turn to atheism as a contraceptive. 01:54:29 lol 01:56:16 :D 01:56:49 * Sgeo will BRB 01:56:52 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 01:57:16 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:57:31 WhatdidImiss? 01:58:05 nothing 01:58:55 * Sgeo is glad to finally be using his FN password 01:59:24 "FN"? 02:00:00 FreeNode 02:00:04 ok 02:00:15 what does that do? 02:00:24 I didn't konw about passwords 02:01:52 nickserv 02:08:54 "According to an online study of 30 traditionally bad sounds, the sound of vomiting is the worst sound in the world." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomiting 02:08:58 Very interesting. 02:10:05 that one went the rounds earlier this year in newspapers, i believe 02:10:28 or maybe this autumn 02:21:15 bsmntbombdood: oh, that thing 02:42:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out). 02:43:47 -!- calamari has left (?). 02:43:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:09:51 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:18:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:04:24 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 06:22:08 WTF?! http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband/tx/universe/vote/ 06:22:20 have these people not heard of cosmic rays? 07:15:29 well, if you put it together with that other theory that universes reproduce by evolving intelligent creatures until they recreate the big bang... 07:19:17 Wow, that's one funky "theory." 07:21:02 i guess the journalists just conveniently ignored those who pointed out that the _current_ accelerators are a far way from creating anything that nature doesn't do by chance. 07:24:09 Nature creates universe-destroying phenomenon (which, by definition, would produce effects at faster than the speed of light) by chance ;) 07:26:09 i sort of imagined that if the universe was designed, then the light-speed limit would be there in order to prevent catastrophes from spreading too fast. 07:29:03 Idonno, that sort of only makes sense with the speed of light in a non-relativistic setting. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:04:34 -!- oerjan has quit ("The pain, the pain!"). 08:37:48 -!- sebbu has joined. 08:58:30 -!- mtve has joined. 11:25:46 The media are nice, but they often exaggerate things. 11:32:20 -!- Figs has joined. 11:32:27 http://www.jbum.com/idt/r.html :) 11:32:36 The R Programming Language 11:36:25 -!- Figs_ has joined. 11:36:25 -!- Figs has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:43:24 -!- Figs_ has left (?). 12:07:33 i'm looking for a t, u or i programming language 12:41:12 TECO, Unlambda, Icon 12:41:15 * SimonRC has lunch 13:25:46 Bah. 13:25:48 Plof. 14:03:39 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:19:50 -!- jix__ has joined. 15:19:30 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:40:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:47:36 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:13:13 -!- crathman has joined. 16:36:04 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined. 16:41:29 Hey 16:42:26 !bf +++++++. 16:42:31 16:43:07 goodgood. 16:43:17 !glass {M} 16:43:21 OK 16:43:21 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:45:48 !help 16:45:51 help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon 16:45:53 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl 16:45:58 !help funge93 16:46:01 To use an interpreter: Note: can be the actual program, an http:// URL, or a file:// URL which refers to my pseudofilesystem. 16:47:35 !funge93 16:47:36 v 16:47:38 v.3< >6.v 16:47:39 @.2?< ? >?5.@ 16:47:41 ^.1< ^ >4.^ 16:47:52 eh 16:47:58 what can you do 16:48:06 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has left (?). 17:10:06 -!- Terrasque has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:45:26 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined. 17:46:50 That was odd. 17:48:46 !glass {M[m(_a)O!"Hello World!"o.]} 17:49:18 running it might help 17:49:53 !glass {M[m(_a)O!"Hello World!"(_a)o.?]} 17:49:56 Hello World! 17:50:06 Meh. There we go. 17:51:26 !glass {M[m(_a)A!(_b)<2>=(_c)<3>=(_a)a.?(_d)O!(_d)o.]} 17:51:35 close enough 17:51:38 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]"). 17:56:19 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix. 18:36:14 school sucks 18:39:07 disagree :P 20:46:02 <= high school pretty much sucks. College can be hard, but it's worth it. 20:55:24 -!- crathman has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]"). 21:11:33 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:13:23 -!- Figs has joined. 21:13:36 -!- Figs has left (?). 21:27:47 I know high school math. 21:27:54 Much of it, anyway. 21:28:02 Is calculus BC considered part of high school math? 21:31:26 "Calculus BC" ... I don't think they had calculus that early in history ;) 21:39:26 Back then, "calculus" meant nothing more than "rock". 21:39:57 I mean, they must have had thousands of words for describing rocks. 21:40:21 what's BC? 21:40:27 "Calculus" would be a rock used for mathematics. 21:40:57 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AP_Calculus 21:41:19 The Greek period introduced some of the ideas of integral calculus, but does not seem to have developed these ideas in a rigorous or systematic way. Eudoxus (circa 408 BCE - circa 355 BCE) used the method of exhaustion, which prefigures the concept of the limit, to calculate areas and volumes. Archimedes (circa 287 BCE - 212 BCE) developed this idea further, inventing heuristics which resemble integral calculus. 21:42:34 The method of exhaustion? 21:45:03 the method of exhaustion. 21:45:18 Hmm. 22:03:42 -!- jix__ has joined. 22:11:50 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:31:10 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 22:31:48 -!- jix__ has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 23:00:15 -!- calamari has joined. 23:07:41 -!- Sgeo has joined. 2007-05-02: 01:14:58 -!- pikhq has set topic: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment -. 01:15:03 UNDO. 01:15:20 That's ... so short ... 01:15:32 -!- GregorR has set topic: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/. 01:15:38 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/. 01:16:10 -!- pikhq has set topic: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or ttp://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0. 01:53:01 heh 01:53:13 no! the'll take away #esoteric ! 01:58:27 at least be esoteric and put it in base 47 or something 01:59:31 Hum ho. 01:59:54 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or ttp://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0. 01:59:56 CfkRAp1041vYQVbFY1aIwA== is base64, i don't happen to have a base 47 encoder handy 02:00:15 what did you change? 02:00:26 Every URL is subtly wrong now. 02:00:37 [2007-04-29 18:31:01] =-= Topic for #esoteric is ``#esoteric - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/'' 02:01:34 GregorR: Why? 02:01:45 Every URL? 02:01:45 I only see one. 02:01:45 -!- ihope has set topic: #esoteric - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0. 02:01:45 That's fascinating, ihope. 02:01:56 Mmh. 02:02:19 Hahahahahah 02:02:32 Hahahahahah? 02:02:44 ははははは? 02:02:48 All I did was add the channel name back to the topic X-P 02:02:57 And what happened as a result? 02:03:00 What's hilarious is you all seem to have believed that I changed all the URLs :P 02:03:18 You liar. 02:03:37 GregorR: You managed to remove an "h" from one URL. 02:03:48 Which is what I saw. 02:04:15 pikhq: All I did was copy/paste. 02:04:36 GregorR: You did that wrong. 02:04:46 wow, we've got people all over the place according to that frappr map 02:04:47 You managed to actually subtly change a URL. ;) 02:04:50 * pikhq has changed the topic to: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or ttp://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0 02:04:56 ^ Before me :P 02:05:00 GregorR: I know. 02:05:04 (now) 02:05:10 I win :P 02:08:14 http://www.cafepress.com/nonlogic.100812817 <- get yer T-shirts! 02:10:12 http://www.cafepress.com/donotputthebaby <- get yer better T-shirts! 02:10:39 alright, gregor has me there. 02:10:42 Hah 02:11:39 I still win on the basis of opportune timing 02:12:14 http://www.cafepress.com/bizarregeek.11389675 02:12:19 ^ I want to buy this :P 02:13:18 i want that one RAND corp book 02:14:03 ah, yes, "A Million Random Digits with 100,000 Normal Deviates" 02:14:25 Mine's better :P 02:20:06 http://www.cafepress.com/ozyandmillie.16057398 02:20:08 T-shirt! 02:23:28 http://www.cafepress.com/esoprog.33142406 02:39:06 That wins. 03:02:55 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:02:57 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:01:51 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:43:30 'Lo. 04:43:40 Hi. 04:58:48 -!- fax has joined. 04:58:49 hello 04:59:20 'Lo. 05:00:04 I just learned about "Gödel's incompleteness theorem" recently 05:00:06 :( 05:05:25 yes? 05:05:55 very upsetting 05:06:11 Im probably just misunderstanding the implications though 05:06:28 (someone else said it was liberating, so :S) 05:29:23 210210102110222222110210121202122110020210201210202022220222000200122122021111 05:29:27 thank you, that is all 05:30:22 * pikhq watches as Digg melts. . . 05:30:44 #x1D0BEB394D6B32F3984F404B709303FD50221EE9FC7C8E8A0C2BC62767036A8F7 05:30:47 ?! 05:31:32 it's soooo funny on digg 05:42:49 Wow, nice, xmame idles high. 06:31:41 fax: what misimplications do you know of? 06:32:09 well you cant build 'non-trivial' system which you can prove terminate 06:33:42 that's turing's halting theorem... 06:35:40 Uh, yeah, what you've got a hold of there is the halting problem, not Gödel's incompleteness theorem ... 06:37:19 but a _fine_ halting problem it is, nevertheless. 06:38:52 of course this strongly depends on your definition of "non-trivial". 06:40:16 oerjan: i strongly suspect the incompleteness theorem and the halting theorem are indeed highly related if not equivalent 06:40:27 I think you could say that any Turing machine which cannot be simplified into a (some specific) different machine cannot be proven to halt. 06:41:18 you can deduce a form of the incompleteness theorem from the halting theorem, yes. just make a search for proofs that programs terminate. 06:41:27 oerjan: right 06:42:28 however the reverse is a bit more dubious, since the halting detection algorithm is not required to use logic. 06:43:44 i.e. the halting theorem works even for algorithms that give no evidence for their answer. 06:47:12 actually the search for proofs that programs terminate may not be quite water-tight, because a logical theory can contain omega-false theorems - saying that something halts but lying. 06:47:55 what?! 06:49:13 in fact it follows from the theorems we are discussing: there must be an algorithm which doesn't halt but which can never be proved to never halt. and then it is consistent to add its halting as an axiom to a theory. 06:49:39 you can simply run it 06:49:41 though? 06:49:49 counterexample should suffice 06:49:55 but if it never halts you will never know that it never halts 06:50:59 the running will never produce the actual evidence. 06:51:25 ah "The particular value of Omega that you get depends on your choice of computer programming language, but its surprising properties don't depend on that choice." 06:51:46 so you cant have a language with omega = 1, which you can do "anything" with 06:51:56 or I really mean everything 06:52:00 (that is not the same omega i am referring too, by the way.) 06:52:04 oh :| 06:52:10 what is omega-false? 06:52:27 i may have made up that term. 06:52:39 well what is the meaning? 06:53:55 are you just saying a proof which relies on some unproved lemma 06:53:55 and this lemma happens to be unprovable 06:54:10 i am referring to omega-consistency, which is a stronger version of consistency for statements about natural numbers. It means that if a theorem says there exists a natural number with a property, then there actually is such a number in the ordinary sense. 06:54:38 such as the number of steps before an algorithm halts. 06:54:47 I see 06:55:11 but how can the alternative (you can prove somthing, but its false) be true? 06:55:21 but if a theory is not omega-consistent then it can contain statements that are proved but "omega-false": there is no actual example 06:55:34 that makes no sense 06:55:52 theres no example because I dont know it.. or because its impossible to find one? 06:55:57 if you have a theorem of the form "there exists an n such that P(n)" 06:56:28 but there is no theorem P(n) for and actual number n 06:56:31 *any 06:57:18 then your theory is omega-inconsistent, but may still be consistent because you cannot derive a contradiction from the absense of something 06:57:29 ah I see 06:57:39 thats a lot less drastic than what I thought you meant before 07:00:15 i think (off my memory) Godel's first proofs required omega-consistency, but that was later changed to ordinary consistency. 07:01:42 so what you get then is that the halting theorem can probably be used to prove the omega-consistency version of Gdel's theorem. 07:01:50 :/ 07:01:56 that last message didnnt come through 07:02:03 somthing is wrong with this program. 07:02:26 probably my slipping in an iso-8859-1 character. 07:02:36 so what you get then is that the halting theorem can probably be used to prove the omega-consistency version of Godel's theorem. 07:02:58 i have still not set up Unicode properly on this account. 07:03:13 UTF-8 seems the de-facto standard for IRC 07:03:21 but hm 07:03:25 yeah, it makes sense. 07:11:49 UTF-8 is the de-facto standard for pretty much everything. 07:12:06 Except Japanese+Shift-JIS :) 07:23:11 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:25:18 -!- tokigun_ has joined. 07:27:02 -!- tokigun has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:31:19 -!- tokigun has joined. 07:33:02 -!- tokigun_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:05:57 -!- tokigun has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:06:01 -!- tokigun has joined. 08:19:06 -!- tokigun_ has joined. 08:19:26 -!- tokigun has quit (Connection reset by peer). 08:33:47 -!- oerjan has quit ("fnordr, fnardar, fnirdi, fnord"). 08:33:59 -!- nazgjunk has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:41:35 -!- nazgjunk has joined. 11:22:12 -!- ihope has joined. 11:50:03 -!- jix__ has joined. 11:55:08 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix. 11:58:28 -!- nazgjunk has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:02:04 -!- nazgjunk has joined. 13:18:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:19:27 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:49:54 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:12:02 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:31:21 -!- crathman has joined. 15:34:05 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:04:56 -!- helios24 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:23:19 -!- nazgjunk has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:31:15 -!- helios24 has joined. 16:34:14 -!- nazgjunk has joined. 16:43:06 -!- helios24_ has joined. 16:43:23 -!- helios24 has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:45:16 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:45:34 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:08:04 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:01:58 -!- meatmanek has quit (Connection timed out). 20:09:56 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 20:30:29 -!- nazgjunk has quit ("Bi-la Kaifa"). 20:31:19 -!- nazgjunk has joined. 20:59:03 -!- meatmanek has joined. 21:10:56 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:11:35 hm 22:25:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:59:46 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:10:10 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 23:15:02 I just mis-lexed as "billo frights" 23:16:37 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:17:12 -!- ihope has joined. 23:28:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Operation timed out). 23:30:59 dillogimp got owned on c.l.s 23:37:57 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:43:12 -!- crathman has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]"). 2007-05-03: 00:51:47 bsmntbombdood: I saw that ages ago 00:51:56 I was part of the pwning team 00:52:20 I actually was the first to mention he was breaking invartiants. 00:53:32 I mean, it's not as if stuff like (eq? foo (car (cons foo bar))) and (eq? bar (cdr (cons foo bar))) are that important are they? :-P :-P :-P 00:54:05 heh 00:54:44 (not (eq? (cons foo bar) '())) is probably the worst 00:56:50 because then caring a cons can fail 01:06:11 bsmntbombdood: yup 01:29:30 And really, if your code can't handle 0 coefficients in polynomials, it's just plain _wrong_ 02:23:03 heh 02:32:13 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:45:19 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:45:49 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 03:47:03 -!- calamari has joined. 04:01:12 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 04:01:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:04:40 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:09:44 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:28:07 -!- fax has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:10:57 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:50:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:21:37 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:40:38 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 09:01:53 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 09:20:30 -!- puzzlet has joined. 09:34:01 -!- Figs has joined. 10:04:19 -!- jix__ has joined. 10:09:31 -!- Figs has left (?). 11:06:08 -!- ihope has joined. 13:16:31 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 13:16:46 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:20:31 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:23:36 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:29:14 -!- crathman has joined. 16:09:47 -!- sekhmet_ has joined. 16:10:10 -!- sekhmet has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:10:17 -!- sekhmet_ has changed nick to sekhmet. 16:17:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:38:58 -!- crathman has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]"). 16:39:25 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:04:37 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix. 19:39:59 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:33:32 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:53:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 21:10:55 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 21:27:37 * SimonRC wonders if this is a real punched card format: http://www.dur.ac.uk/s.r.clarkstone/g-i-l_card.PNG 21:37:17 looks fairly real, although not cut-off corner 21:37:19 *no 21:47:50 hmm 21:48:03 I can't find any info on 25*12 cards 21:48:11 the source I got it from is so full of in-jokes that I am sure it must say *something* 21:49:43 It's the "geeks in love" video (for the Lemon Demon song) 21:49:47 watch it. 21:50:11 The no through it frame-by-frame to spot all the jokes. There are hundreds 21:50:15 *then go 21:50:57 in the shot where he is watching the TV, you can pause and most flash players will let you zoom right in to view everything on the noticeboard 21:54:12 there are a few "subliminal messages" in the form of single-frame shots placed between the longer ones to disguise them 21:54:24 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:57:08 SimonRC: what is that? 21:57:30 It's certainly not 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0. 22:00:38 I know that 22:00:45 the animation's too old for that 22:00:51 by several years 22:01:09 see here: http://uploads.ungrounded.net/295000/295165_geeksinlove_tmst_ng.swf 22:03:37 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:42:12 i hate summer 22:51:53 Do you love school? 22:56:04 I hate school too 23:03:10 It's a paradox 23:30:36 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 23:39:23 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:39:36 -!- pikhq has joined. 2007-05-04: 00:50:36 You hate both summer and school? 00:50:48 yes 00:53:09 So basically you hate living. 00:53:34 living = summer + school? 00:53:59 Depends on how old you are ;) 00:58:07 And where you live? 01:00:40 I suppose so. 01:01:09 i don't think that's ever true 01:01:21 school doesn't take 24 hours every day. 01:01:26 lament: almost 01:01:47 bsmntbombdood: oh? 01:02:31 24-sleeping time 01:02:31 what, you sleep 16 hours a day? 01:02:57 24-sleeping time-some more 01:03:04 well, there you go. 01:03:18 in my case, that was about 8 hours a day. 01:03:21 (the "some more") 01:03:32 actually more like 10 01:03:34 all but a countable subset of my hours is taken up by school 01:04:06 however, you do have uncountable free time :) 01:04:51 no i don't 01:16:33 bsmntbombdood: create a list containing every free instant of your life from now on. Infinite lists are fine. 01:19:48 countable free _hours_ 01:19:56 countable free fraction of hours 01:20:17 fraction = rational number 01:42:11 time is conntinuous. 01:43:45 As is distance. That doesn't mean that distance is uncountable. 01:45:08 There's an infinite number of *points* of time. . . But measuring anything continuous is done not by a measurement of number of points. 01:51:32 -!- lament has changed nick to YANI. 01:51:50 -!- YANI has changed nick to lament. 03:59:22 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 04:12:05 slide rules are esoteric, no? 04:19:09 They are now. 04:19:42 my slide rule smells good 04:23:34 I wish I had a slide rule :( 05:34:51 * pikhq should get one 05:38:40 mighty cool 05:39:09 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curta_calculator <-- i want one of these 07:15:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:19:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 09:00:42 -!- nazgjunk has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:01:14 -!- nazgjunk has joined. 09:58:00 -!- helios24_ has changed nick to helios24. 10:29:56 -!- jix__ has joined. 11:08:18 -!- ihope has joined. 12:47:45 -!- nooga has joined. 12:47:57 hey GregorR, where's yout C2bf? 12:48:05 your* 12:55:41 nvm 13:17:28 Google. . . 14:08:22 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix. 14:12:39 -!- nazgjunk has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:13:04 -!- nazgjunk has joined. 14:15:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:26:31 -!- jix__ has joined. 14:33:08 bsmntbombdood: yeah, they rock 14:35:07 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 14:50:17 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:07:39 * SimonRC reads about a bootleg amusment park. 15:07:44 http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=1678 15:09:05 -!- nazgjunk has quit ("Bi-la Kaifa"). 15:09:14 ah, here's the official site: http://www.bs-amusement-park.com/ChinaIn/about-e.asp 15:11:54 -!- nazgjunk has joined. 15:28:39 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:13:22 -!- nooga has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 16:18:29 -!- nooga has joined. 16:44:56 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:15:22 * SimonRC recommend the works of _Lemon Demon_ to people. 17:15:28 *recommends 17:55:05 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix. 18:24:19 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 18:27:49 * SimonRC has dinner 18:45:41 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:09:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:15:48 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:16:06 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 20:34:15 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:34:31 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:53:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:07:40 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:07:45 -!- CakeProphet_ has joined. 21:07:51 -!- CakeProphet_ has changed nick to CakeProphet. 21:12:33 -!- CakeProphet_ has joined. 21:26:25 ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :" + range(4)) 21:27:32 ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :" + range(4)) 21:28:10 ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :" + "blah") 21:28:19 Blah. 21:28:23 ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah") 21:28:25 ~exec sys.stdout("what?") 21:28:58 hypothesis: dead as a doornail 21:29:01 hm# 21:29:03 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Success). 21:29:10 ~exec self.raw("QUIT") 21:37:38 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:51:26 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 22:10:35 -!- ihope has quit (Client Quit). 22:10:55 -!- ihope has joined. 22:29:52 hrm 22:30:02 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:30:05 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 22:30:07 that's weird 22:30:27 ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah") 22:30:28 blah 22:32:28 bsmnt_bot must be buggy 22:32:33 * bsmntbombdood gets mothballs 22:33:53 looks like ais523 killed it by doing ~bf ++++++++[->-[->-[->-[-]<]<]<]>++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<[>+>+<<-]>-.>-----.> 23:00:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:00:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 23:01:03 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 23:16:24 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined. 23:16:46 hey 23:20:17 -!- lament has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:20:18 -!- lament_ has joined. 23:20:54 -!- lament_ has changed nick to lament. 23:24:36 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has left (?). 23:24:46 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined. 23:26:03 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:29:20 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:29:21 -!- nazgjunk has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:29:22 -!- meatmanek has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:29:22 -!- helios24 has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:29:22 -!- sp3tt has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:29:26 -!- m_atmanek has joined. 23:29:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 23:29:27 -!- sp3tt has joined. 23:29:32 -!- helios24 has joined. 23:29:51 -!- nazgjunk has joined. 23:33:23 that explains things, I suppose 23:37:46 Hmm? 23:38:39 * pikhq dunno 23:43:50 -!- atrapado has joined. 2007-05-05: 00:00:41 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]"). 00:03:29 hmm 00:03:31 * SimonRC goes 00:25:41 -!- atrapado has quit ("eso, lang"). 00:27:52 "an ex-lover of the missing wife of accused spouse killer Hans Reiser has confessed to killing eight people unrelated to the case. " 00:32:05 Yeah. . . Sturgeon (aforementioned ex-lover) also has motive to frame Reiser. . . 00:32:37 (Reiser accused Sturgeon of attempted theft, in addition to the whole "ex-lover" bit) 00:49:30 -!- CakeProphet_ has quit ("haaaaaaaaaa"). 00:57:06 GregorR: You mind me asking how CPlof goes? 01:21:14 -!- ihope has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:26:37 -!- nazgjunk has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:27:06 -!- nazgjunk has joined. 01:55:24 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 01:56:49 -!- Pikhq has joined. 02:51:27 Pikhq: It compiles Plof to C, but I haven't finished the runtime library. 02:51:36 Pikhq: A few simple things work (such as the Plof program '0') 02:53:01 GregorR: Kewl. 02:53:34 GregorR: Think you could shove a copy of Cplof into my home dir or something? 02:54:14 Or just links to a darcs repo? 02:55:12 Never mind; found the darcs repo (I think) 02:57:45 It's the "plof" darcs repo. 02:57:53 The same code base will be both cplofc and plofplof. 02:58:09 (No reason not to reuse the lexer, parser and frontend code) 02:59:12 * Pikhq tries to grok your C code 03:00:10 * Pikhq wonders why PlofParameters params is commented out. . . 03:05:26 Because that doesn't work yet ^^ 03:06:00 Ah. 03:06:11 * Pikhq *tries* to create the array constructor. . . 03:07:11 Would it be acceptable for the array constructor to accept the array size as an argument? 03:09:57 * Pikhq needs to see what the hell a PlofThing array would look like to be sure what would and wouldn't be useful. . . 03:12:06 GregorR: Is an array of PlofThings terminated by a PlofThing with PlofThing.type == TYPE_VOID? 03:13:12 heh 03:13:54 * GregorR reappears. 03:14:05 Pikhq: By my CPlofC design, yuh. 03:14:20 Thanks. 03:14:40 * bsmntbombdood is glad GregorR chose C 03:15:36 bsmntbombdood: In my ideal universe, C is the new ASM. It's used by compilers as the intermediary between high-level languages and the system. 03:15:50 * GregorR leaves for home. 03:15:50 Sure 03:15:52 *fwoom* 03:17:07 * bsmntbombdood looks at his loooong history assignment 03:25:16 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:27:20 -!- Pikhq has joined. 03:27:56 I really should invest in a UPS. 03:28:20 my school just threw out some nice upss but wouldn't let me take one :(( 03:33:52 GregorR: You know what'd be *really* nice? A *generic* PlofThing constructor. . . Taking in a PlofThing and returning a copy of said PlofThing. 03:34:24 It'd simplify what I'm *thinking* would be best for the PlofArray constructor. . . 03:36:18 If there's no offense, I'll go right ahead. 03:41:00 . . . And do you mind me asking the hell kind of indentation style you're using? 03:41:37 * Pikhq will wait as Gregor heads home. . . 03:50:56 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:51:38 -!- Pikhq has joined. 03:53:17 * Pikhq really, really needs a UPS 03:57:11 Or a better power company 04:06:26 Fairly bad storm. . . 04:06:35 As in "tornados in the general area" 04:27:02 * GregorR reappears. 04:27:10 Pikhq: Feel free to make the PlofThing duplicator. 04:27:24 Pikhq: What's wrong with the indentation style in plof.c? :( 04:28:24 GregorR: Actually, I'm wondering what indentation style it is so I can match it. . . 04:28:43 Four spaces, { on the same line except in function declarations. 04:32:56 So, C-c . stroustrop 04:34:51 I had to look that up ... some people call it K&R :P 04:34:59 * Pikhq wonders how to handle TYPE_VARARGS and TYPE_NAME 04:35:13 GregorR: Odd. . . C-c. k&r produces different behavior. 04:35:20 That is odd. 04:35:40 Why is it doing 5 space tabs for k&r?!? 04:35:50 That is also odd. 04:36:02 You probably don't need to handle copying TYPE_VARARGS and TYPE_NAME, they're for internal use only. 04:36:09 Mmkay. 04:36:28 Maybe have those return NULL? 04:37:09 I would stub them with *((int *) 0) = 0 until the exception system is in place. 04:37:32 (BTW: Wherever you see *((int *) 0) = 0, that's me saying "throw someException; // once exceptions are implemented") 04:38:54 Mmkay; got it returning plofStub(); 04:40:06 I've got plofNewPlofThingGeneric(PlofThing *pthng); written. . . 04:46:13 And I think I've got plofNewPlofThingArray(PlofArray *a); written. 04:49:14 * Pikhq will assume, at least for a moment, that you appreciate having someone else do something on Plof. :p 04:49:43 Very much so X_X 04:51:12 I've probably done the array constructor in a bit of an annoying fashion, but that's largely a side effect of having to copy each member of the PlofArray by hand. . . 04:53:30 Arrays are reference types. 04:53:37 OH, wait. 04:53:44 N/M, I see what you're talking about. 04:53:47 Cancel last three lines. 04:54:15 I'm (as you may gather) talking about the underlying struct. ;) 04:55:03 On your box, ~pikhq/plof.c contains my changes. 04:55:48 darcs record , then darcs send 04:56:13 [It's easier on all parties that way] 04:56:50 Oh, and make sure you're up to date with a darcs pull. 04:58:08 Target email address?!? 04:58:38 * Pikhq obviously doesn't use darcs on a regular basis 04:58:57 `darcs send` sends differences via email. 04:59:05 In a handy patch bundle. 04:59:25 Where to? 04:59:41 See PM 07:49:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:54:03 bsmntbombdood: i suspect that ~bf doesn't run in a separate thread, and so sometimes hangs bsmnt_bot. 07:54:50 looks like it 07:56:07 ~exec sys.stdout(keys(self)) 07:56:08 NameError: name 'keys' is not defined 07:56:22 now that was a wild guess. and wrong. 07:57:54 what do you want? 07:58:23 the registered command for ~bf 07:58:52 ~exec self.print_callbacks(sys.stdout) 07:58:53 [('^PING (.*)$', 'pong'), 07:58:53 ('^:bsmntbombdood!\\S*gavin@\\S* PRIVMSG \\S* :~quit ?(.*)', 'do_quit'), 07:58:53 ('^:bsmntbombdood!\\S*gavin@\\S* PRIVMSG \\S* :~raw (.*)', 'do_raw'), 07:58:53 ('^\\S+ PRIVMSG \\S+ :~ctcp (\\S+) (.+)', 'do_ctcp'), 07:58:54 ('^:bsmntbombdood!\\S*gavin@\\S* PRIVMSG (\\S*) :~pexec (.*)', 'do_exec'), 07:58:55 ('\\S+ PRIVMSG (#esoteric|#baadf00d|#bsmnt_bot_errors) :~exec (.*)', 07:58:56 'do_exec'), 07:58:57 ('\\S+ PRIVMSG \\S+ :~ps', 'do_ps'), 07:58:59 ('^:bsmntbombdood!\\S*gavin@\\S* PRIVMSG \\S* :~kill (.*)', 'do_kill'), 07:59:01 ('^ERROR :Closing Link:.*', '')] 07:59:10 not there 07:59:16 oh right. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:01 too much work to remember all the right functions. 08:00:58 ~exec execfile("/bot/scripts/bf.py") 08:02:29 ~exec sys.stdout(dir(self)) 08:02:29 ['COMMAND_CHAR', 'THREADING', '__doc__', '__init__', '__module__', 'chan', 'commands_running', 'commands_running_lock', 'connect', 'connected', 'disconnect', 'do_callbacks', 'do_ctcp', 'do_exec', 'do_kill', 'do_ps', 'do_quit', 'do_raw', 'error_in_chan', 'errorchan', 'exec_execer', 'get_message', 'host', 'ident', 'listen', 'load_callbacks', 'locals', 'message_re', 'nick', ' 08:02:29 owner', 'pong', 'port', 'print_callbacks', 'raw', 'raw_regex_queue', 'realname', 'register_raw', 'save_callbacks', 'socket', 'sockfile', 'verbose'] 08:03:21 ~exec sys.stdout(raw_regex_queue[-1]) 08:03:21 NameError: name 'raw_regex_queue' is not defined 08:03:29 ~exec sys.stdout(self.raw_regex_queue[-1]) 08:03:29 (<_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80df618>, ) 08:04:00 ~exec sys.stdout(self.raw_regex_queue[-1][0]) 08:04:01 <_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80df618> 08:04:13 ~exec sys.stdout(dir(self.raw_regex_queue[-1][0])) 08:04:14 ['__copy__', '__deepcopy__', 'findall', 'finditer', 'match', 'scanner', 'search', 'split', 'sub', 'subn'] 08:05:39 ~exec sys.stdout(repr(self.raw_regex_queue[-1][0])) 08:05:39 <_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80df618> 08:05:49 ~exec sys.stdout(str(self.raw_regex_queue[-1][0])) 08:05:50 <_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x80df618> 08:09:31 .pattern 08:09:49 ~exec sys.stdout(self.raw_regex_queue[-1][0].pattern) 08:09:50 \S+ PRIVMSG (\S+) :~bf ([^!]*)!?(.*) 08:10:04 sheesh 08:10:17 ~exec sys.stdout(self.raw_regex_queue[-1][1].code) 08:10:18 AttributeError: 'function' object has no attribute 'code' 08:10:24 ~exec sys.stdout(self.raw_regex_queue[-1][1].__code__) 08:10:24 AttributeError: 'function' object has no attribute '__code__' 08:12:00 http://pastebin.ca/471979 08:50:45 I'll put it in a new thread later, now i'm going to bed 09:08:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 09:37:16 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:25:32 -!- jix__ has joined. 11:44:25 -!- cmeme has quit (Connection reset by peer). 11:48:59 -!- cmeme has joined. 11:56:25 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 11:59:20 -!- nazgjunk has left (?). 12:15:29 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:14:35 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix. 14:27:06 -!- jix__ has joined. 14:36:12 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 14:54:43 -!- helios24 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:19:44 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix. 17:20:42 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:13:38 -!- ihope has joined. 19:01:36 -!- Pikhq has joined. 19:04:03 Hmmm. . . You think 12 hours of sleep is enough? 19:04:28 Yup; I felt well-rested upon waking up. 19:04:35 Or were you talking about yourself? 19:04:56 Hahah. 19:04:58 Myself. 19:15:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:58:05 GregorR: You up? 20:12:12 12 hours < enough 20:16:37 ~exec execfile("/bot/scripts/bf.py") 20:16:38 SyntaxError: EOL while scanning single-quoted string 20:16:59 ~exec execfile("/bot/scripts/bf.py") 20:18:05 ~bf ++++++++[>++++++++++++<-]>+. 20:18:06 a 20:18:06 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:18:10 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 20:20:51 arr 20:22:01 ~bf ++++++++++. 20:22:03 ~exec execfile("/bot/scripts/bf.py") 20:22:18 ~bf ++++++++[>++++++++++++<-]>+. 20:22:18 NameError: name 'bfarg' is not defined 20:22:42 ~exec execfile("/bot/scripts/bf.py") 20:22:49 ~bf ++++++++[>++++++++++++<-]>+. 20:22:49 NameError: name 'bfarg' is not defined 20:22:52 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:22:54 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 20:24:23 ~exec execfile("/bot/scripts/bf.py") 20:24:29 ~bf ++++++++[>++++++++++++<-]>+. 20:24:30 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:24:32 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 20:24:32 gah 20:25:03 ~exec execfile("/bot/scripts/bf.py") 20:25:05 ~bf ++++++++[>++++++++++++<-]>+. 20:25:06 NameError: name 'bfarg' is not defined 20:25:38 ~exec execfile("/bot/scripts/bf.py") 20:25:41 ~bf ++++++++[>++++++++++++<-]>+. 20:25:41 NameError: name 'bfarg' is not defined 20:25:44 NameError: name 'bot' is not defined 20:25:48 wtf 20:26:28 ~exec execfile("/bot/scripts/bf.py") 20:26:32 ~bf ++++++++[>++++++++++++<-]>+. 20:26:33 NameError: name 'bfarg' is not defined 20:26:35 NameError: name 'bot' is not defined 20:26:47 NameError: name 'self' is not defined 20:27:17 ~exec execfile("/bot/scripts/bf.py") 20:27:19 ~bf ++++++++[>++++++++++++<-]>+. 20:27:20 NameError: name 'bfarg' is not defined 20:27:22 NameError: name 'bot' is not defined 20:27:26 ~quit 20:27:27 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:27:29 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 20:27:34 ~exec execfile("/bot/scripts/bf.py") 20:27:37 ~bf ++++++++[>++++++++++++<-]>+. 20:27:37 a 20:27:49 ~bf +[] 20:27:53 ~ps 20:28:11 ~kill 0 20:28:15 argh 20:28:44 KeyboardInterrupt 20:28:45 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:28:48 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 20:28:55 why isn't it running in a thread 21:00:44 It's funny how old elected people who don't know how to manage money throw laptops at kids and expect them to suddenly get better grades 21:05:43 my school spent SOO MUCH money on useless technology in the new school 21:06:41 (we are getting a new school building) 21:06:50 *groan* 21:09:45 However, the whole intercom system is controlled from the network/external phones 21:09:57 just think of the possibilities! 21:10:55 Bwahahahah!~ 21:11:44 oh, yeah--the projectors (one in every class) are centrally controlled too! 21:13:45 I hope I will be able to take advantage of these exciting oportunities 21:16:33 * Pikhq continues prodding GregorR 21:32:37 -!- helios24 has joined. 21:36:54 * SimonRC finds a song about e-commerce. http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/marketland 21:36:58 well, maybe... 21:37:05 metaphorically... 21:37:29 but WTF is the line # Fifteen years ago, wow. # about? 21:37:47 aaaaaaaaagh 21:37:56 /dev/hda1 36G 34G 0 100% 21:39:10 hm 21:39:20 ooh dead 21:39:22 *deaqr 21:39:25 *dear 21:40:03 yes, that is 0 available, 100% used 21:40:04 :( 21:46:04 /dev/kx44/vg0-home 115Z 22Z 93Z 19% /home2-3-ff 21:46:10 :-D 21:46:40 Z? 21:47:12 Zettabyte? 21:47:26 yes 21:47:30 2^70 21:47:37 I am not on a normal system 21:48:15 omgwtfbbq 21:48:54 your organization actually has 115*2^70 bytes of storage? 21:49:22 and you are actually using 22*2^70 bytes? 21:49:44 hm 21:49:57 * SimonRC tries to find his NDA 21:50:49 bsmntbombdood: That looks like you're using more storage than is available. 21:50:57 36G used, 34G total. :p 21:51:24 no, 34 used, 36 total 21:51:34 apparently 2G are reservered for root 21:51:52 more than that 21:53:09 bsmntbombdood: I recommend you compare the number of bytes of storage to avagadro's number 21:53:27 huh? 21:54:12 Google says: "Avogadro's number = 6.0221415 * 10 ^ 23" 21:55:06 ... 21:55:31 so, the same order of magnitude as avagadro's number 21:55:34 or about 2^80 21:55:38 yeah 21:55:52 you know *what* avagadro's number is, right? 21:55:56 yeah 21:57:59 hmm 21:58:16 But i don't see what the significance is 21:58:54 well, storage devices are typically made of atoms... 22:00:06 My point is it's a fucking lot of capacity, and there are serious problems finding the sapce to store it. 22:00:42 the significance is presumably that SimonRC either has access to some super-secret nanotechnology or is joking... 22:00:42 if you take up more than a few thousand atoms per bits the storage is just enormous. 22:01:47 only 440 grams if it's of iron and each bit is one atom 22:02:12 but it's more than one ZB 22:02:46 ok, 50Kg 22:03:23 actually, your're right there; I was confusing g and kg 22:03:41 I was joking, BTW 22:04:15 s/Z/G/g, right 22:04:25 no, I just made it all up 22:04:34 also, the "KigDos" you see me mentioning occasionally is part of the running joke. 22:05:34 ... that I have access to some Kigdatsi technology. 22:05:38 hm... an ordinary person, even an alien, would never need that much storage. 22:05:57 hehehhrejy lol *snork* 22:06:25 oerjan: I'll quote that back at you in about 50 years 22:06:43 640k aught to be enough for anybody 22:07:04 bsmntbombdood: *fwap* "ought" 22:07:41 well, ok, if you insist on storing every sensation that goes through your brain... maybe. 22:08:29 How about 3D imaging? 22:09:23 Also, CERN's new detector will produce several TB of data per second. 22:09:45 i said an ordinary person. i was not counting scientific research. 22:09:46 IIRC that's after throwing 99.9% of it away. 22:09:57 hmmm 22:10:27 the boundries slip rather fast. 22:11:28 maybe we will come up with some kind of sub-atomic storage system 22:12:13 atoms aren't atomic, after all 22:12:22 I was thinking of that amount of storeage being distributed actually. 22:12:58 storing on the surface of a black hole might theoretically be the densest possible... 22:13:15 hmm 22:13:16 yes 22:14:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle 22:16:50 i am having some second thoughts... solving NP-complete problems might be common, and could require arbitrary resources. 22:32:23 * Pikhq wonders if maybe he should play with ext4. . . 22:35:11 oerjan: eh? 22:36:47 Meh; I'll wait for e2fstools to catch up first. 22:36:49 anything requiring a massive mathematical search algorithm 22:37:13 I know what NP-complete is... 22:37:59 but by definition they can be solved in exponential time (and hence also exponential space) 22:37:59 not "arbitrary resources" 22:38:29 by arbitrary i meant "as much as you can possibly get hold of" 22:39:26 practically, not mathematically unbounded 22:49:56 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:52:44 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 22:57:15 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 23:00:01 When the complexity of the problem doubles, so does the amount of money it costs to solve it? 23:00:31 I'd say it more than doubles 23:01:29 When the complexity of the problem is squared, so is the amount of money it costs to solve it? 23:04:10 isn't that the same thing? 23:11:05 I'd say c*2 = $^2 23:20:38 i dunno if it's that bad 23:21:05 $ = O(c^2) 23:29:14 GregorR: I'm going to take a guess that you're not going to look at my patch at all. XD 23:41:04 I am ... just not right now X-P 23:41:12 I have a lot of other things to do. 23:47:31 It's a Saturday. How much can you have to do? :p 23:47:51 homework :(( 23:59:58 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 2007-05-06: 00:41:09 homework here too 00:43:05 -!- Dreamdancer has joined. 00:43:13 hi 00:50:34 -!- Dreamdancer has left (?). 01:31:09 too bad i can't script my homework 01:31:23 damn those AI researchers and their slowness! 01:44:52 I know one way to script your homework. . . 01:45:03 Mechanical Turk: Homework Edition. :p 01:48:05 This huge project is due soon :( 01:51:16 homework vs. internets 01:55:26 heh 01:56:00 the internet has animated gifs of dogs humping stuffed animals 01:56:07 ok, having listened to the tetris theme tune for about 3 hours strait, I will now go to bed 01:56:10 homework doesn't 02:13:55 -!- m_atmanek has changed nick to meatmanek. 02:26:36 -!- jix__ has joined. 02:35:02 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:37:24 * Pikhq is going to force GregorR to read that patch one of these days. . . 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:48:22 -!- jix__ has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 08:54:26 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:26:23 -!- Figs has joined. 10:26:26 yay 10:26:59 geordi quine 10:31:58 -!- Figs has changed nick to FigsBot. 10:32:07 -!- FigsBot has changed nick to Figs. 10:33:28 -!- Figs has left (?). 11:00:54 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 11:09:28 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 12:04:20 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 12:15:51 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:48:34 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 12:48:58 -!- lament has joined. 13:05:22 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:06:52 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:10:49 -!- lament has joined. 13:17:40 -!- lament_ has joined. 13:34:47 -!- lament has quit (Connection timed out). 13:39:54 -!- lament_ has quit (Connection timed out). 13:49:16 -!- lament has joined. 14:11:37 -!- lament_ has joined. 14:17:00 -!- lament_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:21:57 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:24:18 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:24:48 -!- Pikhq has joined. 14:33:02 -!- lament has joined. 15:32:09 -!- Figs has joined. 15:37:48 -!- Figs has left (?). 16:17:15 -!- oklopol has quit ("Lost terminal"). 16:24:20 -!- ville_ has joined. 17:10:03 GregorR: Gotten any free time lately? 17:46:12 -!- ihope_ has joined. 17:47:46 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:47:46 -!- nooga has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:48:07 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 17:48:07 -!- nooga has joined. 17:53:04 -!- ihope has quit (Operation timed out). 17:53:43 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 17:57:29 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 18:25:09 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:27:03 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 18:31:06 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 18:34:00 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:00:34 -!- calamari has joined. 20:13:21 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:14:19 Pikhq: You sure are anxious 20:15:55 ... 20:22:40 -!- atrapado has joined. 20:35:10 ~pikhq/pikhq_patch2.bundle doesn't exist. 20:44:33 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:47:08 -!- Pikhq has joined. 21:38:45 -!- Pikhq has quit (Connection timed out). 22:28:58 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Arpnet-map-march-1977.png 22:29:04 imagine being able to map out the _whole_ internet and _every_ host on it 22:39:00 -!- Pikhq has joined. 23:01:45 -!- dub_ has joined. 23:03:09 -!- atrapado has quit (Nick collision from services.). 23:03:14 -!- dub_ has changed nick to atrapado. 23:03:55 bsmntbombdood: cool 23:04:05 I still have not seen a satisfactory map of the web though 23:04:22 XKCD's one is a start, but not really what I mean 23:04:55 probably because it can't be done 23:05:23 unless you get all of google's data maybe 23:06:08 I mean, a map that matches the way websites relate in my head 23:07:25 then have a go at your web browser history 23:07:38 not quite it either 23:07:45 SimonRC: A spatial map of the web? 23:07:49 nonono 23:08:03 Would you like that in low-res (60TB) or high-res (60PB)? 23:08:05 maybe something that determines community by common membership? 23:08:14 Pikhq: :-P 23:08:29 Low-res (6PB) or high-res (600PB)? :p 23:08:59 SimonRC: that only works for web2.0 stuff, and it's even harder to get membership data rather than just linkage 23:14:06 Oh I never said it was practical, just that it hadn;t been done yet. 23:17:50 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 23:36:47 -!- calamari_ has joined. 23:37:09 -!- Pikh1 has joined. 23:37:42 -!- ihope has joined. 23:38:07 -!- Pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.). 23:38:15 -!- Pikh1 has changed nick to Pikhq. 23:46:31 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 23:47:19 -!- atrapado has quit ("trisquel"). 23:52:49 that map from 1977 is very nicely multi-connected 23:53:04 i suspect modern internet is in much worse shape 23:56:45 probably 2007-05-07: 00:00:21 you can lay it out by hand when you only have a few hundred hosts 00:09:30 The modern Internet could be produced more nicely via /dev/urandom. 00:14:43 only true randomness on my internets! 00:16:35 apparently the internet's structure has a property known as scale-invariance, which is not the case for simple versions of randomness. 00:17:30 And apparently my Internet connection hates me. 00:23:15 har har, google "she invented" 00:38:18 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 00:49:14 * SimonRC goes to bed 00:56:11 Anybody know where CakeProphet went? 01:10:12 last seen may 4, when he said nothing 01:13:14 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 01:54:15 -!- Pikhq has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:54:40 -!- Pikhq has joined. 02:25:28 -!- calamari has joined. 03:24:42 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 04:07:23 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out). 04:58:55 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 14:23:15 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:36:56 -!- the_entropy has joined. 15:51:07 -!- crathman has joined. 16:41:28 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:28:20 -!- calamari has joined. 18:39:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:48:34 -!- Pikhq has joined. 19:22:38 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:24:15 -!- calamari has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:30:47 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 19:36:27 hi people 19:36:42 hello 19:47:49 where be my entropys? 19:48:03 <_< 19:50:02 Today's entropy forecast: Low but rising. 19:50:17 lol 19:50:34 i'm more interested in tommrow's, today's is almost over 19:50:59 s/today's/today/ 19:51:27 Long-term entropy forecast: Low but rising for the next few billion years. 19:51:44 :) 19:51:52 there is no entropy 19:51:57 everything is predetermined 20:26:03 i knew you were going to say that. 20:26:56 * the_entropy shrugs 20:53:22 -!- crathman has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]"). 21:03:07 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:09:25 * SimonRC <3 the Internet. 21:11:21 Story: Someone posts some information in an obscure place where maybe 100 people will see it. A second person takes unreasonable objection to the information being available and tries to take some legal action them. The first person puts up a notice saying that this has happened. The second person tries to sue them for saying so... 21:12:16 The story hits the fron pages of digg and slashdot, so 100 MILLION people see this information. Songs are recorded, domain names purchased, and t-shirts printed. 21:12:54 You Have Lost at the intarnet. Please insert 50p to continue. 21:19:56 It would have been more satisfying if the information revealed had been a complete crack rather than, as I understand, a nearly throwaway code. Or maybe that just makes it even more pathetic. 21:25:21 -!- ihope has joined. 21:25:27 oerjan: The complete crack should be out by August. :p 21:26:06 (currently, they've got an undefeatable way to *copy* disks; the complete decryption crack is forthcoming) 21:26:37 there is a crack, isn't there? 21:26:37 Undefeatable way to *copy* them? 21:26:47 Isn't that... already possible? 21:27:03 Assuming the media isn't weird, that is. 21:28:12 the media is always weird. any article on a subject you actually are an expert in always contains errors. 21:29:39 ihope: The HD-DVD format has certain 'unreadable' bits required for decryption. . . Usually, getting at them requires a cryptographic handshake with the drive. 21:29:51 -!- the_entropy has quit ("l8er"). 21:30:01 so hack the drive 21:30:06 One of the cracks out there is a patched firmware for the Xbox 360 HD-DVD drive, allowing one to obtain those unreadable bits. .. 21:30:12 bsmntbombdood: That's been done. 21:30:26 personally my pet peeve is how i see journalists put a token statistical number into an article, but it is a number which gives no information in isolation. 21:30:36 or nearly none. 21:32:59 wtf? 21:33:01 http://www.boingboing.net/2007/05/07/lousy_test_question_.html 21:33:10 lousy test question, indeed 21:39:24 Are you allowed to check multiple answers? 21:41:29 No. If you do that, you get a zero on the whole test automatically. 21:42:48 Then I'll just leave that one blank. 21:48:57 If you do *that*, you get a zero on the whole test automatically. 21:49:05 And if you get it wrong. 21:49:18 But if you get it right, you automatically get 100% on the test. 21:53:47 :-S 21:59:10 (The test consists only of that one question, right?) 22:00:09 HMMMM 22:00:20 i am afraid i am going to have to flunk ihope on reading comprehension. 22:00:25 well, realistically, it's B 22:00:39 Is that another -ally word? 22:00:54 you COULD make a case for each of the answers 22:01:01 but that is true of very many multiple-choice questions 22:01:09 but B is the most correct option 22:01:30 i would prefer C. 22:01:33 that is, in practice it's the one that gets used. 22:01:52 liquids are almost always measured by volume. 22:02:12 hm, right. 22:02:16 for one, it's much easier to find their volume than their weight 22:02:31 since the applesauce is probably already in a jar. 22:03:01 if the question had been in the cooking section rather than math it would not have been controversial at all. 22:04:19 There's a cooking section? 22:04:20 :-P 22:04:28 there could have been 22:14:45 Sure, it would've. 22:14:59 "Where's the hogheads option?" 22:15:41 shops sell it in grams 22:23:52 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 22:26:33 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server"). 22:26:33 -!- cmeme has joined. 22:31:29 * SimonRC ponders http://www.thegreenwolf.com/afgto.html 22:43:33 Nice when it comes to fantasy indeed. 22:46:12 eh? 22:46:43 the book documents some peoples' actual beliefs 22:47:02 I almost certainly hang out with some of these people online. 22:56:44 Well, yes, there are those with those actual beliefs? 22:56:47 s/?/./ 23:05:52 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:07:57 -!- Pikhq has joined. 23:09:26 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 23:28:49 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 23:32:51 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 23:35:57 saying "uses metric" doesn't make much sense 23:37:13 lament: liquids are measured by mass 23:39:40 bsmntbombdood: not in any household uses 23:40:50 this can of soup says it contains "524 g" 23:41:09 and does not say the volume of the can? 23:42:26 it gives measurements in oz, lb, g 23:44:28 perhaps belgium is just a weird country. 23:45:15 belgium? 23:46:24 well, whichever country you're in :) 23:46:58 US 23:47:09 oh, well 23:47:12 presumably where the question is from 23:47:19 can't expect the US to do anything sanely 23:47:59 bsmntbombdood: where people actually use metric (as opposed to putting numbers on cans because there's a law that says you have to), they measure liquids by volume 23:48:22 i have lived in four different countries that all use metric, and it's the same everywhere. 23:49:17 blame canada. 23:49:34 canada is one of the four :) 23:50:41 and anyway, liter isn't even an SI unit 23:51:57 fortunately, the conversion is easy enough :) 2007-05-08: 00:02:19 i hate my country 00:04:24 that's okay, most people do :) 00:19:55 this is some delicious tea 00:20:37 # In the year 2009 // We turned water into wine // Then to diet Dr. Pepper on the rocks # 00:20:44 http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/357726 00:35:46 What did Goldilocks say upon seeing "Maybe (b -> Either a b)"? (ihope, no answering) 00:38:15 * SimonRC thinks 00:38:33 I dunno? 00:39:05 Sgeo: well? 00:39:17 It's Just Right! 00:39:33 groan 00:40:08 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 00:44:40 * lament doesn't get the pun 00:44:47 haven't read goldilocks :( 00:45:02 !! 00:45:05 Huh? 00:46:36 :) 00:50:59 !@ 00:51:03 Huh? 00:52:11 !@#$ 00:52:13 Huh? 00:52:17 Isn't EgoBot fun? 00:52:34 !ps d 00:52:37 1 ihope: ps 00:52:52 !daemon cat bf +[,.[-]+] 00:53:11 !daemon ! cat Yup, !! does something now. 00:53:13 !! 00:53:15 Yup, !! does something now. 00:53:17 Huh? 00:53:25 Um, lemme try that again. 00:53:27 !! 00:53:31 Huh? 00:53:37 Oh. Right. 00:53:41 !undaemon ! 00:54:07 Darn it, eh! Uh... 00:54:12 !undaemon cat 00:54:15 Process 1 killed. 00:55:15 hello. 00:55:52 !@&$#@R* history project 00:55:55 Huh? 00:56:29 ----------[++++++++++>,----------]++++++++++[<] 00:57:27 read untill newline? 00:57:47 Yup. 00:58:31 ihope: That'd make more sense with an initial comma. 00:59:09 A little more, yes. 01:17:05 -!- calamari has joined. 01:35:04 If you ever thought that you were supposed to listen to the words in rock opera, try watching "Wishmaster - the misheard lyrics" on youtube. 01:35:07 :-P 01:35:38 It is very hard to tell that they are not the correct lyrics, except the they are completely ridiculous. 01:50:56 latex wins 01:52:59 how so? 01:56:59 Because word proccessors lose 02:02:28 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 02:02:38 LaTeX wins because Emacs wins. 02:03:28 If Emacs wins, does that mean vi loses? 02:03:49 No, only nonfree vi versions. 02:03:58 latex + emacs is what i'm using right now 02:04:02 Free vi versions win at their original purpose: penance. 02:04:10 high five *5* 02:04:26 * Pikhq raises a five high for no good reason 02:05:22 \newcommand{\person}[1]{\newpage \begin{center} #1 \end{center}\vfill} 02:05:26 that is why latex wins 02:06:47 These have to be the best rube-golberg devices I have every seen 02:06:57 better than the usual ones one sees: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5nmspVOz_Y# 02:07:22 bsmntbombdood: Isn't Turing complete document writing just wonderful? 02:07:56 * SimonRC wonders what "pitakona siriti" means 02:08:50 Toki Pona? 02:10:40 no, japanese, I think 02:12:51 That's great and all, but Japanese doesn't have the following phonemes: ta, si, ti. 02:13:23 Err. 02:13:26 Just si and ti. 02:13:53 (it's got those in kana, but they're pronounced and transcribed (usually) as "shi" and "chi") 02:15:04 latex also wins because you can manipulate your document with sed 02:16:56 You *can* do that with ODF. . . 02:17:29 unzip odf&&sed command here odf/main.xml&&zip odf.zip odf 02:18:29 xml is no fun 02:21:26 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out). 02:22:33 ah, it's "pitagora suicchi" == "Pythagoras Switch". 02:23:06 Pythagoras Switch are a well-know japanese group whose videos are all over the 'net 02:23:18 they were the ones who did the Algorithm Dance 02:30:06 Well, that's quite different from "pitakona siriti". . . 03:05:33 -!- calamari has joined. 04:15:56 zzzzzzz 04:44:40 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 06:02:01 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:03:45 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:13:10 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 09:14:46 -!- sebbu has quit (Nick collision from services.). 09:14:50 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 10:48:13 -!- puzzlet has joined. 11:08:18 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:18:18 -!- ihope has joined. 12:55:34 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:56:41 -!- Pikhq has joined. 15:29:30 -!- the_entropy has joined. 15:29:30 -!- cmeme has quit (Dead socket). 15:29:30 -!- cmeme has joined. 16:59:26 -!- the_entropy has quit ("-"). 18:34:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:49:23 -!- Pikhq has quit (Connection timed out). 19:25:23 -!- Pikhq has joined. 19:50:26 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:20:22 -!- calamari has joined. 21:02:47 -!- ihope has quit ("Reconnecting..."). 21:03:02 -!- ihope has joined. 21:15:43 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:50:50 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined. 21:51:00 Hoy. 21:57:45 Ahoy-hoy? 21:58:44 Ahoi polloi. 22:01:52 Holabuenosdias? 22:02:02 Q! 22:02:47 que tal? 22:03:04 Tal vez. 22:03:07 Ou eh la gar? 22:03:22 Un poco peor. 22:03:38 Gracias. 22:03:42 no entiendo nada 22:03:50 que idioma estan hablando? 22:03:50 -!- crathman has joined. 22:04:40 ¿Quién? ¿Yo? 22:05:25 no seas tonto 22:05:43 Me doy cuento que nadie ha usado el inglés. (Or something like that, anyway.) 22:06:23 ingles es muy complicado 22:06:43 Debe ser porque. 22:46:16 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]"). 22:57:03 # It's at time like this I wish I had // Telekinesis. # 22:57:08 *times 22:57:34 *these 22:57:42 spelling, too 23:14:37 it would be cool to be a vulcan and mind meld 23:15:54 "If they try it on me, they'll go blind" -- Wally from _Dilbert_. 23:17:36 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 23:29:28 -!- Pikhq has joined. 23:47:44 -!- helios24 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 23:48:39 -!- crathman has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:49:07 -!- helios24 has joined. 23:55:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("Reboot"). 2007-05-09: 00:09:47 -!- crathman has joined. 00:15:17 -!- crathman has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:17:06 -!- helios24 has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:19:31 -!- helios24 has joined. 00:31:49 -!- crathman has joined. 00:41:23 -!- crathman has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:53:19 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:17:34 -!- helios24 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:20:00 -!- helios24 has joined. 01:30:03 -!- Pikhq has quit ("Leaving."). 01:31:08 -!- Pikhq has joined. 02:00:40 -!- helios24 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:49:54 -!- helios24 has joined. 03:30:18 german is a cool sounding language 04:14:21 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 04:25:40 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:51:11 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:51:36 -!- helios24_ has joined. 04:52:13 -!- helios24 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:26:34 -!- sekhmet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:26:37 -!- sekhmet has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:30:15 -!- lament_ has joined. 09:32:39 -!- the_entropy has joined. 09:32:53 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:03:41 -!- the_entropy has quit ("Leaving"). 10:05:39 "Dear admin. If you break this system before my summative demonstration tomorrow I may be forced to kill you. Love SimonRC" 10:26:46 -!- lament_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:29:13 -!- lament has joined. 12:30:04 -!- Pikhq has joined. 12:57:01 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:31:56 -!- Pikhq has joined. 16:44:50 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:53:39 -!- jix__ has joined. 18:12:34 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:16:49 Deutsch ist solch eine huebsche Sprache. 18:17:02 what does huebsche mean? 18:17:12 pretty 18:17:17 heh 18:17:29 it sounds really dirty and funny in russian 18:18:08 and btw, i meant that sentence to be a self-contradictory self-reference. 18:45:56 i wonder how many people have memorized the 09 f9 key by now 18:46:07 i assume quite a few know the first four digits 21:25:59 -!- StelK has joined. 21:29:59 Is there anything like the Internet WRT that affair? 21:30:27 I can't think other time that taking firm action against a problem makes it 100,000 times worse. 21:31:26 * oerjan is thinking of Zimbabwe. 21:34:21 surely there must be lots of revolutions that started in such a way, or? 21:36:32 Czechnya must be an example of this. 21:36:43 oh, and who could forget Iraq? 21:40:11 heck, it's almost the definition of war. 21:45:15 -!- StelK has quit. 21:48:56 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 22:14:33 -!- jix__ has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 23:23:41 -!- oerjan has quit ("AAAAAAAA!"). 2007-05-10: 00:39:52 -!- calamari has joined. 01:23:24 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 02:23:21 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:28:49 -!- nooga has joined. 02:56:45 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:57:03 -!- nooga has joined. 03:17:27 -!- nooga_ has joined. 03:18:25 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:58:10 -!- digital_me has joined. 05:21:20 -!- digital_me has quit ("Lost terminal"). 05:36:34 -!- nooga has joined. 05:37:07 -!- nooga_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:51:54 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 06:31:21 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:09:55 -!- jix__ has joined. 09:13:50 -!- nooga_ has joined. 09:32:33 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:29:17 -!- nooga_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:29:19 -!- nooga has joined. 12:38:55 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:39:06 -!- nooga has joined. 13:18:03 -!- jix__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:18:20 -!- jix__ has joined. 13:59:35 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:18:34 -!- jix__ has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 14:21:54 XHTML web-pages + navigating links using TAB == pain 14:21:57 Specifically a game of "try to spot where on the page the selection went this time" 14:22:00 ooh, it went left, right, and left again 14:56:44 -!- nooga_ has joined. 15:03:26 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:04:05 -!- Pikhq has joined. 15:11:41 Question: May vegans breast-feed their children? 16:05:59 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:43:48 hi 16:45:51 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:13:34 -!- jix has joined. 18:37:23 -!- Pikhq has joined. 19:03:33 -!- crathman has joined. 19:13:19 -!- nazgjunk has joined. 19:42:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:09:26 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 20:19:20 hi * 5 20:35:43 -!- UpTheDownstair has joined. 20:37:04 -!- ihope has joined. 20:39:17 -!- nazgjunk has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:41:01 hi * 2 20:42:49 bye^1? 20:45:57 -!- UpTheDownstair has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:46:13 -!- UpTheDownstair has joined. 20:56:27 WIBBLE! http://www.google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=%22%23define+private+public%22&btnG=Search 20:57:05 Interesting. 21:03:01 -!- UpTheDownstair has changed nick to nazgjunk. 21:40:47 -!- UpTheDownstair has joined. 21:43:56 -!- nazgjunk has quit (Connection reset by peer). 21:44:19 -!- UpTheDownstair has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:44:29 -!- nazgjunk has joined. 21:50:42 -!- nazgjunk has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:52:28 -!- nazgjunk has joined. 21:53:31 -!- nazgjunk has quit (Connection reset by peer). 22:00:33 -!- nazgjunk has joined. 22:26:29 -!- UpTheDownstair has joined. 22:28:59 -!- nazgjunk has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:34:43 -!- nazgjunk has joined. 22:34:44 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 22:34:56 -!- UpTheDownstair has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:37:21 -!- UpTheDownstair has joined. 22:37:56 -!- nazgjunk has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:43:02 -!- digital_me has joined. 22:43:10 -!- fax has joined. 22:43:11 hello 22:43:26 HI 23:03:18 * SimonRC decides to eat last night's pizza and go to bed. 23:12:07 -!- UpTheDownstair has quit (Connection timed out). 23:12:30 * oerjan smiles at the monster he has created. 23:12:35 BWAHAHAHA! 23:13:50 monstar? 23:14:55 Another implementation of Deadfish. 23:17:09 in what language? 23:17:19 * oerjan coughs. 23:17:22 Unlambda. 23:17:26 :D 23:18:58 -!- crathman has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]"). 23:26:43 Now at the wiki. 2007-05-11: 00:12:26 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 00:29:11 CakeProphet! 00:29:21 You haven't said anything about the OS project lately. 00:36:50 by my best estimate he has said only a single "HI" for a week. 00:39:46 make that 11 days. this from your friendly Big Brother. 00:40:02 Should I bug him via MemoServ, the Google Groups group, Wikipedia and Esolang? 00:41:06 _and_ take out an ad on national TV. 00:41:10 :-) 00:41:43 mind you that "HI" was just 2 hours ago. 00:42:05 and i may possibly have missed him under one of his other nicks. 00:42:28 go to his house 00:42:55 Hmm, not the worst of ideas. 00:43:07 Except that he's cloaked. 00:43:08 I bring music 00:43:56 he is in the "flappr" or whatever map 00:43:56 lol 00:43:56 Ooh, is he? 00:43:59 Jasper, GA, USA 00:44:00 that would be a little imprecise without his real name, i figure. 00:44:35 "IamAdam " 00:44:40 Maybe his name is Adam. 00:45:17 So we just need to grab all the people in Jasper named Adam and see if one is the Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake and the Seven Inch Bread. 00:45:18 still a little too imprecise. 00:45:45 google his name and see if you find his name 00:46:57 Adam Carr? 00:47:57 I don't think so. 00:48:26 Adam Goldstone? 00:49:08 Adam Ant 00:50:04 Hmm, not Goldstone. 00:50:23 I sort of doubt it's Adam Ant. 00:50:28 lol 00:51:05 Jasper, Georgia people named Adam who have a birthday on July 26? 00:53:41 The population of Jasper, Georgia is about 3000, so there are about eight people there born on July 26. 00:54:35 3000 isn't that much 00:54:46 wow, it sounds like you could actually make it 00:54:54 creept 00:54:56 And the name Adam is probably rare enough that we can pin it down. 00:54:59 *creept 00:55:00 Creept indeed. 00:55:01 *creepy 00:55:26 Now all we need is a list of Jasper, Georgia citizens by first name and date of birth. 00:55:46 I'm thinking giant phonebook. 00:55:47 just go to GA 00:56:45 Is there a giant phonebook in Georgia? 00:56:45 I think I've crashed libgc :( 00:57:26 Darn, these three phonebooks all require a last name. 00:57:43 Maybe I'll try finding the phone number of "Greg Richards" instead. 00:58:39 Hmm. I *think* this page is loading... 01:00:16 "Current Residence: hahahahaha" 01:02:38 Where's that? 01:02:44 deviantart 01:14:19 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:07:15 Sgeo! 02:07:25 No ihope! 02:08:02 Negative. 03:07:29 ihope, .... 03:08:34 ...you'd actually... probably find me at that point. 03:08:42 as my name is Adam.... and I live in Jasper. 03:14:05 hehe 03:48:06 -!- digital_me_ has joined. 03:49:10 -!- digital_me has quit ("Reconnecting"). 03:56:45 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 04:23:30 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:05:24 -!- digital_me_ has changed nick to digital_me. 05:21:33 -!- digital_me has quit ("leaving"). 05:52:51 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:08:30 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:51:46 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 12:47:20 -!- fax has quit (" "). 13:04:16 -!- jix__ has joined. 13:21:24 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix. 14:52:23 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read 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has quit ("haaaaaaaaaa"). 18:37:31 -!- CakeProphet_ has joined. 18:37:36 -!- CakeProphet_ has changed nick to CakeProphet. 19:19:01 .....I feel like making a game. 19:19:23 I feel like either implementing PESOIX or doing absolutely nothing. . . 19:19:29 And I think doing nothing would be easier. 19:19:50 ......games are pretty kickass to make.... besides being a crapload of work. 19:20:02 especially MMO games. 19:23:05 CakeProphet: Connection reset by peer 19:38:12 * SimonRC goes 19:46:06 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:52:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:58:02 -!- fizzie has joined. 21:00:33 -!- oklopol has joined. 21:11:43 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 21:12:00 SO 21:13:17 I GOT A FUNKY COMPILE ERROR. 21:13:20 http://pastebin.ca/484986 <-- explain 21:13:43 apparently the *'s are throwing the compiler off. 21:14:57 if((num_updates % (1 MINUTE)) == 0 // wtf? 21:15:12 #define MINUTE * 60 21:15:12 ? 21:15:20 lol 21:15:58 hahaha.... I like it. 21:16:47 isn't my code. 21:16:51 BUT I MUST FIX THE PARSE ERROR. 21:17:04 what is MINUTE defined as? 21:17:50 What's CHAR_DATA #define'd to? 21:17:54 And the other _DATA's 21:20:57 ...I don't know....... C SYNTAX DOESN'T TELL YOU WHERE SHIT IS DEFINED. 21:21:09 well what are the #include lines? 21:21:20 * CakeProphet spits in #includes face. 21:21:37 grep is your friend. 21:21:51 yes 21:22:11 You can also run it through something like 'gcc -E' and look at the preprocessed output. 21:23:36 i would guess those _DATA's are all defined in some #included .h file. 21:24:07 so "grep -f _DATA *.h" 21:24:13 grep #define MINUTE ? 21:24:33 i would think MINUTE is unlikely to be the culprit. 21:24:40 ....just out of curiosity. 21:25:21 whoops, that should be -F not -f 21:28:48 how do you make grep do regexes? 21:28:55 leave out the -F 21:29:17 i included it because i couldn't remember if _ was a regexp character 21:29:53 use -E for advanced regexes 21:30:21 Or just use \(, \| and so on, if you have gnu grep. 21:30:26 (this from grep --help) 21:30:46 this is gnu grep i'm looking at 21:30:57 "In GNU grep, there is no difference in available functions in either of the first two syntaxes [-E and without]." 21:31:12 It's just that without -E you need the \s to keep the magic. 21:31:14 * CakeProphet is trying to weed out CHAR_DATA's definition out from all the countless function signatures. 21:31:26 oh. 21:31:53 do grep '[#]define *CHAR_DATA' 21:31:55 i think 21:32:50 It might also be a typedef. (But causing that parse error with a typedef would be rather impressive.) 21:32:54 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:33:30 ....here's what I've got that's the most useful. 21:33:30 actually neither # nor _ seem to be special 21:33:36 [bread@portent src]$ grep -E "struct.*?CHAR_DATA" *.h 21:33:37 mud.h:typedef struct char_data CHAR_DATA; 21:34:12 8| 21:36:14 bizarre. 21:36:34 ...what the hell is it? I can't figure out where it's at. 21:37:07 less mud.h ? 21:37:39 but it looks like a perfectly ok standalone declaration. 21:37:55 which should not make it possible to trigger that parse error. 21:38:47 ...if it means anything.... I never ran a configure script..... there wasn't one. 21:38:51 Yes, and if that file's not included, it should be a 'CHAR_DATA was not defined' error. 21:39:02 indeed 21:39:21 s/defined/declared/ 21:40:06 that's annoying 21:40:15 how a missing type gives a syntax error 21:40:21 are you compiling with all warnings? 21:40:30 but it cannot be missing 21:40:41 -shrug- I don't know... I just ran the makefile 21:41:06 ....I thought it might have something to do with the * being there. 21:42:15 CakeProphet: Try getting it to compile with -Wall added to the CC args. 21:42:54 found it. 21:42:58 what's -Wall do? 21:43:16 char_data is a struct. 21:43:36 http://pastebin.ca/485031 21:44:29 make CFLAGS=-Wall 21:44:39 i think 21:45:32 # flags to use during compilation 21:45:34 C_FLAGS := -Wall -g -ggdb -O2 21:45:37 in the makefile 21:45:50 so it already does so 21:45:57 yep 21:46:12 With a struct char_data { ... }; like that, and a typedef struct char_data CHAR_DATA; I don't see any reason for a parse terror. 21:47:17 well... the parse error comes before the *..... if that means anything. 21:49:04 well.... any way to fix it? 21:49:17 I don't necessarily care why it does it... I just want it not to do it. 21:49:35 Well, you could try sticking just "struct char_data *ch" there. 21:49:46 Instead of "CHAR_DATA *ch". 21:50:15 Since it's C++, even plain "char_data *ch" might work. 21:50:48 it's C++? 21:50:55 * CakeProphet thought it was C. 21:51:15 Hmm, it is C. 21:51:22 I wonder where I got the C++ impression from. 21:51:30 so did i except for the // comments 21:51:30 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 21:51:32 from http://homepages.uc.edu/~hollisgf/nakedmud.html : "NakedMud is written in C, and uses Python for scripting." 21:51:45 Ah, right, must've been the // comments. 21:52:08 Anyway, 'struct char_data' should work. 22:01:03 Building dependencies for gameloop.c 22:01:05 Compiling gameloop.c 22:01:06 gameloop.c: In function `update_handler': 22:01:08 gameloop.c:350: parse error before `struct' 22:01:09 gameloop.c:351: `ch' undeclared (first use in this function) 22:01:11 gameloop.c:351: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once 22:01:12 gameloop.c:351: for each function it appears in.) 22:01:14 gameloop.c:353: parse error before `struct' 22:01:15 gameloop.c:354: `obj' undeclared (first use in this function) 22:01:17 gameloop.c:356: parse error before `struct' 22:01:18 gameloop.c:357: `room' undeclared (first use in this function) 22:01:20 make: *** [gameloop.o] Error 1 22:01:21 ....nope.... I don't think it had anything to do with CHAR_DATA 22:01:45 maybe you should take a look at that MINUTE anyhow. 22:02:10 Hmm. 22:02:44 This is sort of grasping for straws, but you wouldn't happen to have any non-printing non-visible evil characters there somewhere? 22:04:27 ..........doubt it. 22:04:33 [bread@portent src]$ grep "MINUTE" *.h 22:04:35 mud.h:#define MINUTE * 60 SECONDS /* one minute */ 22:04:36 mud.h:#define MINUTES MINUTE 22:04:48 hahaha 22:04:54 that's very explainational 22:05:21 That's just sick and SICK. 22:05:43 1+1 MINUTES => 1 + 1*60 SECONDS. 22:06:14 fizzie: Well, that just means that 'MINUTES' has a lower precedence than + *shrugs* 22:06:14 [bread@portent src]$ grep "SECOND" *.h 22:06:16 mud.h:#define DFLT_PULSES_PER_SECOND 10 22:06:17 mud.h:#define PULSES_PER_SECOND mudsettingGetInt("pulses_per_second") 22:06:19 mud.h:#define SECOND * PULSES_PER_SECOND /* used for figuring out how many pulses in a second*/ 22:06:20 mud.h:#define SECONDS SECOND /* same as above */ 22:06:22 mud.h:#define MINUTE * 60 SECONDS /* one minute */ 22:06:30 #define MINUTE(x) x * SECONDS(60) 22:06:40 Holy. . . Must. Kill. 22:07:31 1 * 60 * mudsettingGetInt("pulses_per_second") 22:08:25 Silly pulse-based MUD. 22:08:32 .....C is REALLY annoying. >.< 22:08:34 The MUD I nearly wrote was event-queue based :) 22:08:58 Bah. Make it IRC-based. :p 22:09:42 Just checking: is line 350 in the file line 34 in the paste? 22:10:18 mine just makes a thread for each conncetion, and slaps input on a queue. it's like hardware nterrupts versus hardware polling. 22:11:09 fizzie, yep 22:11:32 lessee, gameloop.c is the first file compiled. 22:11:42 or at least mentioned in the makefile. 22:12:07 nope.... bunches were compiled. 22:12:34 I just didn't think they were important. 22:14:07 Is that nakedmudv3.3? gameloop.c compiles just fine for me. 22:15:05 aha, the plot thickens. 22:15:59 with plain make? is everyone using gcc >= 3.02 which the web site says is the only tested compiler? 22:16:55 Well, I had to add -I/usr/include/python2.4 to find Python.h, but other than that it compiled just fine with plain make. 22:17:08 With gcc (GCC) 4.1.2 20061115 (prerelease) (Debian 4.1.1-21). 22:18:33 yeah, 3.3 22:18:55 and your gcc is? 22:19:34 ...where'd fizzie get that string? 22:19:49 gcc --version. 22:20:11 gcc --version 22:20:12 2.95.3 22:20:17 ......old? 22:20:22 indeed. 22:20:35 requires >= 3.02, it says. 22:21:26 ah... it has version 3.02 22:21:36 gcc -V 3.02 --version 22:21:37 3.02 22:21:43 * CakeProphet SHALL CHANGE THE C_FLAGS 22:22:22 8| 22:22:51 * oerjan boggles his mind on the fact that CakeProphet's does _not_ run the latest version by default 22:22:57 *gcc 22:23:22 not mine... it's on a MUD host......... full of -really- old server programs. 22:23:49 stuff made in the early 90s 22:24:03 like when _I_ was playing MUDs :) 22:24:29 well... I don't like hack and slash ones... feels too much like excercising. 22:28:50 ..... is tgz a gzip file? 22:29:02 usually 22:29:10 tar xzvf something.tgz yah? 22:29:15 abbreviation for .tar.gzip 22:29:20 ah 22:29:22 alright cool 22:29:44 *.tar.gz 22:29:47 I use zxvf, but everyone else seems to use xzvf. Must be something wrong with me. :/ 22:30:19 no it is just your sense of ordering. 22:51:19 ...actually.. 22:51:26 it doesn't have 3.02 22:51:34 [bread@portent src]$ gcc -V 23.5 --version 22:51:35 23.5 22:51:44 ....unless gcc actually -does- have a version 23.5 22:51:58 That's nice behaviour to have. 22:58:38 ...my guess is that -V sets a version variable... and --version reads the version variable. 22:58:57 .....it's actually what I would expect... 22:59:24 For my 'gcc' -V is the version to run, if multiple versions are installed. 22:59:50 I wouldn't expect it to lie. 23:00:04 well... yeah... I didn't originally... 23:00:12 but considering how must scripts work... it's not surprising. 23:01:10 hmmm..... I -could- find a way to compile the source for the target machine.... using my computer. 23:01:48 Yeah. Cross-compilation. 23:01:59 Figure out what architecture their system uses. 23:02:31 that's where you have to keep your fingers crossed? :) 23:02:41 If it's ancient enough to have gcc less-than-three, it might also have pretty ancient libraries. 23:02:55 a.out executables and non-glibc C library, that sort of thing. 23:06:56 -!- tokigun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:12:01 -!- tokigun has joined. 23:15:44 -!- tokigun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:17:01 -!- tokigun has joined. 23:18:08 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:23:18 fizzie: Cross-compiler which outputs a.out, static linking, voila. 23:25:12 Static linking doesn't much help if it runs a kernel so ancient that the syscalls are all different from what your fancy new library expects. (Not that you couldn't use old libs with the compiler.) 23:25:41 Cross-compilation *would* let you compile for linux-ancient. 23:27:25 I SHALL FIX THE PROBLEM 23:27:26 AT THE SOURCE 23:27:34 ....and complain to the server admin. 23:51:15 -!- tokigun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:52:19 -!- tokigun has joined. 23:58:28 har 2007-05-13: 00:03:41 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("haaaaaaaaaa"). 00:04:11 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 00:09:44 -!- sebbu has joined. 00:18:10 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:35:26 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 01:10:15 -!- jix__ has joined. 01:18:39 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:46:39 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=880385262900785074 02:48:52 i don't get it 02:55:23 -!- jix__ has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 04:08:00 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:08:01 -!- Sgeo has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:08:01 -!- lament has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:08:01 -!- fizzie has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:08:02 -!- helios24_ has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:08:02 -!- ville_ has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:08:02 -!- oerjan has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:08:02 -!- EgoBot has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:08:02 -!- SimonRC has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:08:12 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:08:12 -!- fizzie has joined. 04:08:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:08:12 -!- lament has joined. 04:08:12 -!- helios24_ has joined. 04:08:12 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 04:08:12 -!- ville_ has joined. 04:08:12 -!- EgoBot has joined. 04:08:12 -!- SimonRC has joined. 04:14:26 -!- puzzlet has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:26 -!- sp3tt has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:26 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:26 -!- meatmanek has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:26 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:26 -!- lament has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:26 -!- fizzie has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:26 -!- ville_ has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:27 -!- helios24_ has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:27 -!- oerjan has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:27 -!- EgoBot has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:27 -!- SimonRC has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:27 -!- CakeProphet has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:27 -!- tokigun has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:28 -!- cmeme has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:28 -!- Pikhq has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:29 -!- nooga_ has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:29 -!- oklopol has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:30 -!- sekhmet has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:30 -!- GregorR has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:15:10 -!- SimonRC has joined. 04:15:10 -!- EgoBot has joined. 04:15:10 -!- ville_ has joined. 04:15:10 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 04:15:10 -!- helios24_ has joined. 04:15:10 -!- lament has joined. 04:15:10 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:15:10 -!- fizzie has joined. 04:15:10 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:15:10 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 04:15:10 -!- tokigun has joined. 04:15:10 -!- Pikhq has joined. 04:15:10 -!- cmeme has joined. 04:15:19 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:15:19 -!- sp3tt has joined. 04:15:19 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:15:19 -!- meatmanek has joined. 04:15:24 -!- sekhmet has joined. 04:15:24 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:16:01 -!- oklopol has joined. 04:16:01 -!- nooga_ has joined. 04:21:15 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 04:26:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out). 04:27:35 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:15:03 What's with people and join/quitting instead of talking? 05:17:49 -!- bsmntbombdood has left (?). 05:17:53 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 05:17:56 Yeah. 05:20:07 I come from the land of the ice and snow. 05:22:39 from the midnight sun where the hot springs glow? 05:22:42 yes. 06:01:18 -!- CakeProphet_ has joined. 06:03:32 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:03:41 -!- CakeProphet_ has changed nick to CakeProphet. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:24:54 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:12:07 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:24:01 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:24:05 -!- puzzlet has joined. 10:30:33 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:16:11 -!- Pikhq has joined. 12:11:48 -!- jix has joined. 12:53:25 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:10:17 -!- jix__ has joined. 13:19:12 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:20:57 -!- Pikhq has joined. 17:06:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:08:22 What's with people and join/quitting instead of talking? 17:08:37 There is of course only one proper solution. 17:09:11 Create a programming language based on join/quit messages. 17:26:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 19:48:11 -!- ihope_ has joined. 19:48:44 The Abrasax kernel project seems to have died temporarily. 19:49:13 I'll need to seek out an x86 person... 19:49:27 ...just as we always have... 19:55:09 Cling to calamari? 19:56:12 Is calamari an x86 person? 19:57:00 He wrote a (basic) OS; I'd say so. ;) 19:57:52 * ihope_ clings to calamari 19:58:43 If he decides to show up again, of course. 19:58:52 oerjan *might* have some of that knowledge, as well. 19:59:05 I notice that neither is currently here. 19:59:28 Unless ville_ is oerjan or something. 19:59:40 Nope. 20:07:00 ville_ is me 20:07:05 too lazy to kill myself. 20:09:31 And I take it you're not oerjan. 20:23:59 "In Marketland // The world is in you hand. // I'd go wash it off now. # 21:32:56 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:52:31 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 21:52:50 -!- jix__ has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 23:00:25 -!- ihope_ has quit ("http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.08.09"). 23:10:15 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 2007-05-14: 00:55:26 -!- Figs has joined. 00:55:46 -!- Figs has left (?). 04:04:51 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 04:07:45 I seem to have discovered that GCC's optimization can break pointer arithmetic. 04:08:08 THat's not good 04:08:15 http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/test.2.c See anything wrong with that? 04:08:31 Because gcc doesn't unless you add -O. 04:08:41 Soon as you do, it segfaults. 04:12:05 segfaults for me without -O 04:12:46 line 12 04:13:12 The hell is wrong with that assignment? 04:14:46 wtf? 04:14:51 I'd think *b=*a; is a fairly innocent assignment. 04:15:55 the local of the same name as the global clouds the issue 04:16:02 Ah. 04:16:58 * Pikhq will have to add that to his "map" function (which *attempts* to make valid BFM variables fit within the context of C correctly (*this*is*a*variable is valid in BFM)). 04:18:15 yes, found the problem i think 04:18:25 char *b = b... 04:20:10 wtf? 04:20:28 Yeah. 04:20:36 after line 6, current != b 04:20:46 That's an issue in *my* compiler. ;) 04:21:36 how can this be? 04:21:44 My BFM compiler. 04:22:21 I mean the results 04:22:32 current = b; yet current != b 04:23:20 Yeah. . . That's an issue in my output. 04:23:58 huh? 04:25:10 I suppose you can't have a global var and a local var and access the global var in the scope of the local var even before it's declared 04:26:20 better name mangling, then 04:31:41 Yeah. 04:31:49 My issue was in name mangling, that's all. 04:32:06 Fine, so now names look even more mangled if you try to look at the C source. . . One will just have to live. 04:33:17 If you have non-legal C chars in names, I would use some sort of symbol based thing 04:34:13 I've just got a large amount of substitutions. 04:37:10 s/_/__/g; s/\*/_asterisk_/g # yay, no collisions 04:37:39 Okay, that's not *quite* what I'm doing, but pretty close. 04:37:57 What mine looks like is more s/_/__/g;s/\*/_/g 04:38:15 Confusing? Yeah. Does it work? Well. . . Yeah. 04:40:21 * Pikhq also has name mangling for Brainfuck variables (in case someone decides to use -g on BFM) 04:45:56 Just as soon as I care enough to, I'll be writing some language-specific stdlib macros. . . 04:46:11 Should, at the very least, make the interpreter run a hell of a lot faster. 04:47:23 * Pikhq should also update the documentation a bit before releasing 04:52:22 lambda x: "".join(["a"*ord(i)+"b" for i in x])) 04:52:36 name mangling should be as esoteric as possible 04:53:54 I don't do Python. 04:59:04 puts n "a"s where n is the ascii value of the character, deliminated by "b" 04:59:39 And mangle "a" and "b" appropriately? :p 04:59:50 every character 05:00:04 Holy. . . 05:00:14 While it'd *work*, I must ask. . . WHY?!? 05:00:25 for esotericness 05:00:42 Just because BFM is an esolang doesn't mean the *compiler* must be esoteric. 05:00:51 "a" gets mangled to "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaab" 05:00:53 Isn't it enough that you get code like: 05:01:07 *a = *b - 1; 05:01:25 It's never enough 05:01:34 *a = !*a; 05:01:41 if(*a)putchar(*b); 05:02:18 From now on you will be called aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 05:02:25 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaab 05:04:19 the inverse happens to be lambda x: "".join([chr(len(i)) for i in x.split("b") if i]) 07:35:17 That's not guaranteed to work anyway: only "-- at least -- 63 significant initial characters in an internal identifier or a macro name --" are guaranteed. 07:42:02 But in the interests of equal time -- here are the same (anonymous) functions in Perl: (everyone always seems to do only Python :( :( ) 07:42:05 sub { join("", map { "a"x ord($_)."b" } split //, shift) } 07:42:07 sub { join("", map { length($_)?chr(length($_)):"" } split "b", shift) } 07:45:07 (Not related, but how does doing "s/_/__/g;s/\*/_/g" prevent a conflict of "foo_bar" and "foo**bar"?) 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 13:10:12 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:31:31 -!- Pikhq has joined. 13:59:58 -!- Pikh1 has joined. 14:00:48 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:45:26 -!- jix has joined. 15:28:11 -!- crathman has joined. 15:34:31 -!- Feuermonster has joined. 16:48:38 -!- ehird` has joined. 16:48:51 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:49:00 i honestly think my language may be worse than malbolge 16:49:05 ((len*(index>1?index*index:50))+chr) % 50 <-- this is just insane 16:49:43 oh yes, and the fact that the middle opcode is evaluated first, then the last, then the rest 16:50:44 o_O 16:51:22 Which language is that written in? 16:51:36 that's just the interpreter source coe 16:51:38 *code 16:51:38 well 16:51:41 the decryption part 16:52:03 I mean, in which language do you write the source-code? 16:52:09 what? 16:52:20 Php,Python,Ruby,BASIC whatever? 16:52:33 that code is valid in many languages 16:53:06 (((len * (index > 1 ? index * index : 50)) + chr) % 50 16:53:10 not that hard to decipher 16:53:54 I guess index : 50 means index / 50? 16:54:05 .... ternary operator.... 16:54:20 it's (if index > 1 then index * index else 50) 16:58:52 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/61475 16:58:58 this program should print "a" and a newline 17:42:56 okay, my interpreter is broken 17:43:14 "Invalid decoded opcode 54 at 1 (SyntaxError)", yet my smash-bricks-at-decoder-to-get-program program says its ok 18:19:36 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/61490 18:19:42 even I can't figure out how that works 18:19:46 hmm 18:19:48 pastie messed it up 18:19:53 it's bigger than that in actuality 19:45:01 -!- Feuermonster has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:00:05 -!- sp3tt has quit ("leaving"). 20:02:02 -!- sp3tt has joined. 20:43:37 -!- crathman has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]"). 20:50:48 -!- Pikh1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:12:30 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 21:21:20 -!- Pikhq has joined. 21:30:35 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:34:12 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:40:24 "this language should be called eyefuck if it is supposed to actually look like that." 21:40:26 close, close.. 23:43:38 '(enemy lasanga robust below wax) 23:43:39 '(semiautomtic aqua accompany slacks) 23:43:41 :-P 23:43:43 http://lemondemon.com/skippy/17.html 23:45:20 you don't have to link to a lyrics page 23:45:35 * ehird` would recognize those anywhere 23:45:46 ah, another fan 23:46:08 * SimonRC particularly likes _Geeks In Love_ 23:46:56 It agrees with my not-terribly-serious geeks-as-next-evolution-of-humanity idea 23:47:09 (See also: X-men movies) 23:47:17 with your powers combined, i am captain ge...ahem 23:47:29 If they aren;t, then why are asperger's rates rising so sharply. 23:47:33 ? 23:48:02 For almost all of human history, the most complex thing that ones has had to deal with as a human is other humans. 23:48:16 That is changing. Humainty will have to change with it. 23:48:38 etc, until I start advocating euthanasia 23:48:39 :-P 23:48:59 To be honest, a lot of people holding the "asperger's" badge do it because they "dont fit in lol" and are self-diagnosed 23:49:12 indeed 23:49:31 though it is a spectrum 23:49:41 i'm aware, having being diagnosed myself years ago :) 23:49:57 * SimonRC point out Paul Graham's excellent "Why Nerds Are Unpopular" essay. 23:50:37 rather mild for me, AFAICT, though I was the weirdest people out of several hundred in primary and secondary school 23:51:24 ehird`: more constructively, could you recommend other bands to me? I feel I need to actually acuire some music. 23:51:34 I procrastinate any kind of buy stuff 23:51:38 *buying 23:51:45 SimonRC: good essay 23:52:01 bsmntbombdood: from recall or from very fast reading? 23:52:04 *cough* bittorr COUGH ugh COUGH aaa COUGH COUGH CHOKE 23:52:09 recall 23:52:54 BTW, I meant "good" in the sense that it makes me feel good. My instincts tell me that the whole school-as-prison thesis might be utter BS, or might not. 23:53:25 this stems from reading the anti-PG essay "Dabblers and blowhards"./ 23:53:57 School is prison 23:54:04 less so in the UK, afaict 23:54:10 people would have you believe that prison is school 23:54:12 :P 23:54:25 in secondary chool, I got on well with most teachers, and learnt loads of stuff 23:54:56 I learn nothing in secondary school 23:55:10 how about algebra? 23:55:24 or the joy of conversing with fellow geeks? 23:55:28 or music? 23:55:33 fellow geeks? in a public school? 23:55:42 you must be kidding me 23:55:46 ehird`: that means something different here... 23:56:07 algebra, hah 23:56:20 I went to a "grammar school" (deprecated), which took the top 40% of students. 23:56:32 i know what a grammar school is, SimonRC ;) 23:56:46 in .uk, public school = private school = school that you pay for. 23:56:59 in .uk state school = gov-funded school 23:57:17 * ehird` is in .uk 23:57:29 * ehird` mixes .uk-isms and .us-isms after a while by mistake 23:57:56 I don't know many geeks 23:59:25 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 23:59:39 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 2007-05-15: 00:06:38 -!- Pikhq has joined. 00:15:16 what's a good way to determine if a language is turing complete or not? 00:15:31 implement a turing complete language in it 00:15:35 heh 00:15:39 what fun that will be. 00:15:49 ehird`: it's not hard 00:15:58 ehird`: there's several popular options for this 00:16:04 brainfuck, register machine 00:16:07 P'' 00:16:08 lambda calculus 00:16:21 brainfuck probably the easiest. 00:16:25 whatever's the closest to your language 00:32:18 j lccccccccc.n! 00:32:18 k^Newline. 00:32:18 l:10-? 00:32:19 ccccccccccccccc.n! 00:32:19 ^Not a newline. 00:32:19 mwaha 00:32:21 er. flood. 00:38:17 -!- ehird` has quit. 01:28:21 -!- ihope_ has joined. 01:45:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:45:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit). 01:48:28 -!- digital_me has joined. 01:53:55 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:54:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit). 02:11:58 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:20:27 -!- nooga_ has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:20:27 -!- oklopol has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:20:27 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:20:28 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:20:28 -!- lament has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:20:28 -!- fizzie has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:20:28 -!- ville_ has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:20:28 -!- helios24_ has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:20:28 -!- oerjan has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:20:28 -!- EgoBot has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:20:28 -!- SimonRC has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:41:42 -!- EgoBot has joined. 02:41:42 -!- SimonRC has joined. 02:42:20 -!- fizzie has joined. 02:42:20 -!- helios24_ has joined. 02:42:20 -!- ville_ has joined. 02:42:36 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 02:42:36 -!- lament has joined. 02:42:51 -!- oklopol has joined. 02:42:51 -!- nooga_ has joined. 02:43:31 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 02:44:12 wibbly 02:48:37 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:34:52 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:14:14 haha owned by paul graham 04:14:24 "The object-oriented model makes it easy to build up programs by accretion. What this often means, in practice, is that it provides a structured way to write spaghetti code." -- Paul Graham 05:44:19 -!- digital_me has quit ("leaving"). 05:50:59 (yay! got to the castle in NH!) 05:51:01 hmm, still need MR... 05:51:02 * SimonRC goes to bed 06:20:58 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 12:06:52 -!- nooga_ has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:06:52 -!- oklopol has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:08:37 -!- oklopol has joined. 12:08:37 -!- nooga_ has joined. 13:06:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:18:28 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:52:41 -!- jix__ has joined. 13:54:02 -!- Pikhq has joined. 14:14:51 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:51:55 hmm, there has been no apology or explanation for last night's outage. 15:52:14 there was an outage? 15:55:04 actually i may not have noticed because i couldn't reach this account i use for irc because nvg's home directories went down. 15:55:45 although somehow i doubt you are speaking of _that_ outage. 15:56:14 no 15:56:51 there was a mungo netsplit which lasted 20 mins and the netowrk came back in bits and pieces 15:58:50 interesting that irc has so many netsplits because it is tree structured without cycles, and somehow they cannot fix that fundamental flaw 15:59:06 or maybe they have... 15:59:37 when i think about it i read it in the original rfc 16:04:08 routing in a non-tree is a PITA 16:04:36 you need to keep a databse of comments that people have said in the last few seconds, and keep comparing 16:04:45 assuming you want something USENET-like 16:06:19 right 16:08:13 on the other hand once a netsplit is detected there shouldn't have to be 20 minutes to make a new route. 16:08:52 but of course i don't know how smart irc networks actually are about that. 16:13:19 Oooh, wise words from Stroustrup: "I particularly dislike classes with a lot of get and set functions. That is often an indication that it shouldn't have been a class in the first place. It's just a data structure. And if it really is a data structure, make it a data structure." 16:17:28 Oooh, more (from the interviewer): "Anything that's just using the data, but not defending the invariant, doesn't need to be in the class." 16:19:09 * SimonRC worships B.S. 16:19:44 // 16:19:48 oops 16:19:58 * oerjan tests something 16:20:00 puzzlet_: that regex mtches an awful lot 16:20:26 -!- puzzlet_ has changed nick to puzzlet. 16:20:37 what did i say? 16:21:21 :D 16:22:15 16:23:08 16:23:26 will someone else try an emote? 16:25:34 somehow the nick of whoever "worships B.S." did not show up on my screen. I just got colors in irssi after someone removed an old version, but now i seem to have some invisible text. 16:27:11 *sigh* 16:27:31 -!- oerjan_ has joined. 16:27:39 * oerjan_ tests 16:27:58 and so... 16:28:03 -!- oerjan_ has quit (Client Quit). 16:28:25 yep, the nicks of emotes don't show up at all. 16:29:27 * oerjan tests again 16:29:59 it's white on white. the nick is invisible but does affect the indentation of the following text. 16:34:58 -!- oerjan_ has joined. 16:35:06 testing 16:35:16 testing 16:35:45 -!- oerjan_ has quit (Client Quit). 16:37:47 ah! 16:39:28 it's white bold on white, and i have set them equal. 16:48:11 * oerjan boggles at whoever decided "white" in ANSI should not mean white. 16:49:29 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:50:59 oerjan: it comes in two varieties: dark whit and light white 16:51:08 sigh: "The halting problem proves that no algorithm can be proven correct." 16:51:11 * SimonRC fwaps 16:51:20 * SimonRC fwaps the person who said that 16:52:35 yes, but the dark white is for some reason the default background, unless they go one "better" and make it black. 16:54:31 hmph, from the look on my screen it seems like irssi is assuming my text is white on black, because all the highlighted colors are light. 16:55:08 of course dark white on dark black makes more sense than the other way around. 16:55:33 lessee... 16:56:38 -!- crathman has joined. 17:12:58 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 17:16:48 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 17:20:01 -!- Feuermonster has joined. 17:20:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 17:36:01 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 17:46:58 "Scheme programmers *do* know about OO. They have each implemented it at least a dozen times." 17:47:01 :-P 17:55:02 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 18:17:44 what are you reading? 18:21:22 or just randomly googolating for quotes? 18:29:03 -!- Feuermonster has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:32:18 * oerjan tests 18:38:04 -!- atrapado has joined. 19:05:25 -!- ehird` has joined. 19:05:45 http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/oobrain.b oh my go 19:05:47 it's beautiful 19:09:32 * sebbu regarde heroes 122 19:10:05 someone make BF++ 19:11:02 interesting. there is already something non-esoteric by that name. 19:11:46 as well as an actual brainfuck extension. 19:12:31 * ehird` wonders what INTERCAL++ would be called 19:12:47 * ehird` honestly has no idea how to add one to a number and assign the var to it in intercal 19:13:15 that's in the INTERCAL standard library. 19:15:41 ehird`: !! 19:16:10 SimonRC: !! at what? 19:16:12 OOP in brainfuck? 19:17:26 yes 19:17:37 did you write that? 19:17:53 I would be nice as a BFM library I suspect. 19:17:55 *it 19:18:02 or rather, framework 19:18:12 no, i didn't 19:18:16 it was written in 2003 19:18:45 -!- nooga_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:20:01 mod_bf OOP framework? ;;) 19:21:54 it's a framework rather than a library for BF programs because it determines the structure of the code you write 19:22:53 you fit libraries to your code, frameworks fit your code to them 19:25:07 roughly, yes 19:25:47 The stack paradigm actually makes BF not-totally-insane, by increasing the locality of things 19:27:00 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/61810 19:27:05 worse than befunge, methinks.. 19:27:50 linear typing might help too 19:28:03 what language? 19:28:22 "2d" 19:28:23 mine 19:28:32 a horridly morphed 2d language 19:28:54 right... 19:29:00 I will now attempt to decrypt... 19:29:07 hjkl = directions 19:29:10 yes 19:29:12 vi(1) 19:29:33 : = dup, ! = halt, ? = go up if false and down if true 19:29:51 close 19:30:05 left/right turn? 19:30:11 : is "get a character of input and push its ascii value to the stack" 19:30:20 but the rest is correct 19:30:26 digits push themselves, - subtracts 19:30:31 yes 19:30:36 or do *numbers* puh themselves? 19:30:42 the numbers 19:30:49 it basically walks forward until it stops finding digits. 19:30:55 ok 19:30:57 - pops two numbers off the stack, subtracts them, and pushes the result 19:31:02 yes 19:31:10 , must do comparison 19:31:13 erm 19:31:15 < 19:31:19 nope 19:31:32 < swaps two items on the stack 19:31:32 dunno then 19:31:34 ok 19:31:39 [1,2,3] < results in [1,3,2] 19:31:54 why i do that is revealed when you figure out what c does 19:31:58 and the program area must wrap 19:32:10 it /does/, but that's not used here 19:32:29 what is ^ 19:32:45 a character. c pushes the character below itself as an ascii value 19:32:57 ahh 19:32:58 which i suspect could be used in quines if going downwards. 19:33:16 you see, . the printer, since everything on the stack is just a number, can't tell where the string starts 19:33:22 so i just make it stop when it finds ^ ;) 19:33:30 (^, $ - regexp start/end of line) 19:34:06 hm... instead of having a language parse sequences of digits, it could treat a digit as "multiply by ten, then add this". 19:34:16 heh 19:34:39 hmm... 19:34:41 it's not wtf-inspiring though :) 19:34:50 does ? throw away the value at the top of the stack? 19:34:55 i'm considering making the implementation of ? replace itself with j or h depending on the condition, then going back one 19:35:07 and it does, but i've realised it shouldn't 19:35:11 as then i can't print the character 19:35:12 ah 19:35:16 thanks, i was trying to fix that bug! 19:35:49 you need to be consistant, the tradition with stacks is that everything uses up all its input unless there is a very good reason not to. 19:36:11 tradition? this is an esolang, is it not? :) 19:36:40 you should really follow befunge and make the if operators use up their predicate 19:36:52 "Esoteric" not "awkward". 19:37:22 * oerjan wonders if SimonRC ever looked at Glass. 19:37:27 awkward languages are the only fun esoteric ones ;) 19:38:22 I disagree. We all failed to invent linear types, despite them being very esoteric, and *they* are fun and esoteric. 19:39:01 it may not abuse the stack in _that_ particular way, but it is certainly awkward. 19:39:28 oh fine 19:42:34 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/61817 19:42:39 hmmm/.. it's hanging after two lines 19:42:46 god knows why it even DIES on two lines 19:56:09 -!- jix__ has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 20:00:42 ehird`: I think you are mixing up your l with your 1 20:01:11 the third line of the program should be something like: l10+c<.j 20:01:23 hmm 20:02:12 -!- coatgrinder has joined. 20:02:56 hi 20:03:10 hello. 20:03:51 not much hapenning ATM 20:04:30 Do you know much about C++? 20:05:14 -!- atrapado has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:05:28 not much 20:05:54 ok. never mind 20:06:21 SimonRC: no 20:06:31 ? moves up or down, it doesn't change the direction of execution 20:06:56 ah, ok 20:07:19 i add 10 because i had subtracted it previously 20:07:20 oh wait 20:07:22 that's on another copy 20:09:41 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:12:20 -!- jix__ has joined. 20:13:14 c++-- 20:14:02 (C++)-- has no seq points, it is undefined. 20:14:16 Possible solution: Seperate the expression into multiple statements. 20:14:26 (at c.c, line 4) 20:14:41 * ehird` reads too many compiler errors 20:15:37 gcc says error: invalid lvalue in decrement 20:18:02 it is wrong 20:18:12 x++ is an lvalue 20:18:17 e.g. *(ptr++) = 2 20:18:34 int C = 0; (C++)--; is undefined, but it probably results in C being 0 20:21:12 i reached mental condition when i can understand the i = i++ + ++i 20:23:50 eh, * doesn't have to be applied to an lvalue. 20:24:08 indeed, x++ probably isn't one. 20:24:29 x++ doesn't make much sense as an lvalue 20:24:37 *x++ does, though 20:26:04 coatgrinder: undefined. 20:26:11 you just understand it as your compiler does. 20:26:15 probably 20:26:32 int i = 15; i = ++i + ++i should be 17 if your compiler is worth its salt 20:26:45 it translates to int i = 15; increment i; increment i; i = i + i 20:26:50 yes 20:26:52 otherwise, it uses a tmp variable and that's slower. 20:28:28 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 20:29:19 but it's undefined judging by standards? 20:29:24 correct 20:29:37 i.e. both ways would make a correct compiler 20:29:38 ok. 20:30:49 having it explode would be correct 20:30:54 so would having it cry 20:33:52 http://c-faq.com/expr/evalorder2.html 20:34:22 that would make it rather emoish compiler 20:35:48 hmm 20:35:55 a language entirely made out of the letter Q 20:36:13 unary dialect 20:36:50 QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ 20:38:02 it doesn't differ that much 20:40:08 i'm making it basically http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/BF_instruction_minimalization but depending on a magical counter :P 20:41:10 it's .[ in unary i think 20:41:24 which is cute smiley 20:47:25 How does "int i = 15; increment i; increment i; i = i + i" lead to "i == 17"; isn't i+i 34? And anyway, you really can't deduce anything about compiler smartness out of the result; it could easily be running on an architecture where "increment i; increment i;" without some manual delay in-between would result in i being incremented only once, and be a _smart_ compiler and not use the delay, because there really shouldn't be two modifications to i between se 20:47:50 you got cut off 20:48:02 Nothing too interesting there: -- modifications to i between sequence points. 20:48:14 if the standard says it's unspecified, the compiler writers SHOULDN'T bother messing around with making it work on stupid CPUs 20:48:25 "Undefined means that, notwithstanding question 9.2, printf("%d", j++ <= j); can print 42, or ``forty-two.''" 20:49:17 Yes, that's exactly my point: the compiler writer doesn't need to bother adding the manual delay there, because it's undefined. 20:49:30 j++ == j;, always 20:50:19 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/61834 20:50:21 But you can't deduce from the "unexpected" result that the compiler was stupef. 20:50:22 bsmntbombdood: you are trolling 20:50:23 somebody want to prove that's as turing-complete as BF? :) 20:50:36 hmmm 20:50:41 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/61835 20:50:43 with that change it should be 20:51:39 - can be + 127 times, and > can be ->, and + can be +< 20:52:39 bsmntbombdood: In the above code (j++ <= j), it could legally do the evaluation by getting j into onto the stack twice, then comparing, then incrementing j, or by pushing j, incrementing it in memory, then pushing j again. It is therefore undefined what the result is. 20:55:42 a quantum computer might have registers that do not have a physical value if you try to access them in an illegal order. 20:56:41 lol 20:59:33 -!- coatgrinder has quit. 21:04:13 -!- jix__ has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:12:56 -!- atrapado has joined. 21:16:32 -!- Pikhq has joined. 21:25:12 hm... instead of having a language parse sequences of digits, it could treat a digit as "multiply by ten, then add this". <<< i think sadol does this, though dunno if it's actually meant to do that 21:27:50 it doesn't look like it to me 21:29:52 hmm 21:31:00 in a language with such a feature, the digits would have to be commands, and they would ordinarily be prepended with a command meaning "set the register digits act on to 0" 21:33:03 ,41337 is 1337, but ,41,21337 might well be 1000+1300+30+7... 21:33:23 if that's anything close to what you meant earlier :) 21:38:06 i think it is a stretch. it doesn't fit with sadol's general syntax and semantics. 21:38:41 sadol seems no closer than _any_ language allowing sequences of digits to have their usual meaning. 21:39:19 a digit is a command meaning 'press a similarly labeled button on your phone' 21:39:48 but, 0..9 are just functions that return a value 21:40:05 that's what gave me the impression 21:40:27 that numbers are not parsed as such but instead calculated like that 21:40:27 oklopol: what's the type signature? 21:40:28 yes but they are the wrong functions, and they work completely differently after , 21:40:36 okay 21:40:37 well 21:40:49 it would be cool if it worked like that 21:41:27 indeed in the context of Sadol , is a function with variable number of arguments. _it_ has some of this flavor but not the digits themselves. 21:42:17 i would guess that ,3 x y z is 100*x+10*y+z in general, say 21:43:10 i don't see any real difference... might be this pain in my eyes 21:43:54 well in sadol you give , arguments, which possibly need not be digits. 21:44:52 in my idea a digit modifies a number, which may possibly not start as 0 before the first digit. 21:45:20 i'm beginning to understand i misunderstood you earlier 21:45:32 personally i think having digit objects is dumb. 21:45:37 say in a stack based language, 3 might modify the top of the stack 21:46:06 in a way, you're incorporating the decimal system into your language 21:46:19 well it is smart if you are trying to make every token a single character 21:46:20 and it doesn't deserve such niceties :) 21:46:28 well, sure. 21:46:59 which doesn't deserve such niceties? my language or the decimal system? 21:47:10 the decimal system 21:47:12 i hate the decimal system 21:47:35 anyhow so far my language consists of nothing more than these digit functions, and a command to set the top of stack to 0 21:47:56 oerjan: ditch digits, use roman numerals 21:48:00 oerjan: similarly 21:48:15 the semantics of individual commands will be deliciously fucked up 21:49:21 well roman numerals are very close to adding a fixed number 21:49:38 not at all 21:49:49 sometimes, they subtract :) 21:49:57 the subtractions were not in the original system 21:50:59 hm, it might still be possible to make them functions. 21:51:00 i suppose 'IX' and 'IV' are really single tokens 21:52:03 say a roman numeral adds if it divides the current number 21:52:40 *numeral sign 21:52:50 yeah 21:53:41 if not, you take the remainder and inverts its sign first 21:53:55 hehe 21:54:04 *invert 21:54:05 like i said, deliciously fucked up :) 21:54:24 and you could have a mix of both notations 21:54:33 using the same register 21:54:41 in fact you don't need two rules. if the remainder is 0 you don't change anything by inverting it. 21:54:50 true 21:54:53 sweet 21:55:06 that's much better than the state-based system for parsing them that i've read about somewhere 21:55:16 so n s is n+s-2*(n%s) 21:55:29 of course it doesn't catch erroneous numerals but that's just convention 21:56:53 you could require the remainder to have the right relationship to s. 21:57:21 not sure if it's really worth it 21:57:33 and like i said, this way makes it easiest to freely mix roman and arabic digits 21:57:52 that could potentially save you some space compared to either method 21:57:59 though i dunno if it actually does in practice 21:58:17 challenge: write a program to give the shortest 'mixed' numeral for a given number :) 21:59:22 you could do things like 3M = 1997 21:59:23 kinda hard to beat arabic though, usually 21:59:47 yeah :) 21:59:53 i mean 997 22:00:10 M3M is 1997 22:00:35 eh no 22:00:35 3MM is just 3? 22:00:40 M3 is 10003 22:00:50 oh, right 22:00:56 so C3M 22:01:05 no 22:01:08 nevermind :( 22:01:45 is there a good way to write 1997? 22:01:58 C3M 22:02:21 C3 = 1003 22:02:34 1003%1000=3 22:02:37 oh yeah 22:03:17 wow that's fucked up. 22:03:47 thank you :) 22:04:20 at least the algorithm for determining the shortest numeral halts :) 22:04:55 you ppl are sick 22:04:56 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:05:01 how about control flow? 22:05:22 in numerals? exactly who were you calling sick? 22:05:32 you, but it was a complement 22:05:41 compliment 22:05:42 i know, i am used to it 22:07:41 time to fire up another copy of Hugs 22:08:10 i baptize these the Arombiac numbers 22:12:34 -!- digital_me has joined. 22:19:40 -!- ehird` has joined. 22:38:32 * lament generates all the numerals with 5 digits or less 22:38:56 * oerjan suddenly feels Entish 22:39:00 alas 22:39:32 it seems that after 3000 (MMM) there's no more gains 22:40:04 past that, arabic just wins. 22:40:23 that pesky exponential growth! 22:40:33 oh yeah, 1997 = MM7 22:40:44 a "saner" numeral anyway 22:40:49 wait 22:40:51 that's wrong 22:40:59 hah 22:41:03 my entire thing is wrong!!! 22:41:06 indeed that is 20007 22:41:10 one sec 22:41:10 bwahaha 22:41:52 yes so there will be infinitely many gains because you can always prolong a winner 22:41:57 * lament generates again 22:42:30 much better 22:42:43 much better :) 22:43:11 999999 = 1M999 22:43:14 hehe 22:48:10 5009 = D9 but 5010 = L10 22:48:16 evil evil 22:48:35 who said roman numerals were useless? 23:25:53 -!- crathman has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]"). 23:43:30 -!- ehird` has quit. 23:47:21 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 23:51:56 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 23:52:51 -!- atrapado has quit ("etch"). 2007-05-16: 00:47:42 lament: Anyone who needs the number 0. 00:49:53 1997, of course, equals MCX7. 00:51:40 Err. . . That's wrong. 00:54:29 MXM7 00:55:25 er, no 00:56:19 1997 = 199 7 = CIC 7 00:56:22 CIC7 00:56:36 but MM7 is shorter 00:56:51 and so is C3M 01:14:34 But 10 is shorter still (base unspecified). :p 01:44:11 Many rules frown on CIC and want CXCIX instead. 01:45:01 "Thus, one should represent the number "ninety-nine" as XCIX, not as the "shortcut" IC. However, these rules are not universally followed." says Wikipedia on "XCIX or IC". 01:45:04 I frown on positive-integer-only numerics. 01:45:34 But remember: A frown takes N muscles, while a smile takes only M, with N >> M. 01:46:34 Yes. Thus, a numeral system which *can* represent all real numbers (assuming infinite storage) is easier than one that can only store postive integers. 01:47:09 (and, with some additions, the real number numeral system also handles complex numbers) 02:13:03 Pikhq: adding a '-' in front of roman numerals is not any different from adding it in front of decimal numerals. 02:37:05 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 02:37:34 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Client Quit). 02:38:25 -!- ihope_ has joined. 02:38:28 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope. 02:41:20 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 02:42:13 -!- Rugxulo has left (?). 03:23:18 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:31:25 -!- digital_me has quit ("Lost terminal"). 04:32:04 -!- digital_me has joined. 05:33:34 -!- digital_me has quit ("night"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:55:57 -!- jix__ has joined. 10:24:22 -!- jix__ has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 12:00:21 -!- ihope_ has joined. 12:00:23 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope. 12:14:13 -!- jix__ has joined. 12:44:09 -!- jix__ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 12:44:32 -!- jix__ has joined. 13:12:45 -!- jix__ has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 13:13:05 -!- jix__ has joined. 16:05:50 -!- helios24_ has changed nick to helios24. 16:32:20 -!- ehird` has joined. 16:44:56 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:18:09 -!- lament has set topic: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/. 17:50:55 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:52:08 -!- ehird` has joined. 18:18:46 oooh 18:18:57 hoo 18:19:14 oko 20:19:20 -!- digital_me has joined. 20:22:04 -!- digital_me has quit (Client Quit). 20:22:50 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:00:31 -!- digital_me has joined. 21:01:06 -!- digital_me has quit (Client Quit). 21:01:18 -!- digital_me has joined. 21:15:34 -!- crathman has joined. 21:30:15 -!- ville_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:37:27 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:55:39 -!- jix__ has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:14:37 -!- oklopol has joined. 22:15:30 -!- ville_ has joined. 23:33:21 -!- ehird` has quit. 23:52:17 that turing machine in the topic has no halt state 23:52:26 what is suposed to be the end of computation? 23:54:21 anything 23:54:22 you can use any halting computation to test, i think 23:54:26 yeah 23:54:47 any halting computation to set up, too 23:54:56 huh? 23:55:10 bsmntbombdood: to check when to halt, you analyze the state 23:55:35 bsmntbombdood: but the rule for halting has to be sufficiently simple 23:55:47 basically, you code and decode a computation from/into this machine using some other program. 23:56:15 have the decoding be done by a utm 23:57:39 the point is that the de/coder should be simple enough that you know _it_ is not providing the universality 23:58:05 hm, simply being halting may not be enough 23:58:51 you just have to satisfy the committee 23:59:06 which, realistically, shouldn't be difficult unless you're actually cheating 2007-05-17: 00:00:24 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 00:09:47 -!- digital_me has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:18:26 -!- crathman has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 00:29:48 lament: pff, go and ruin all our HD-DVD fun? ;-) 00:29:56 At least, I think that's what it is. 00:29:59 Something like that. 00:35:30 decoding an infinite computation makes it much more difficult to define what it means not to cheat - you can no longer just require halting checker 00:35:42 *a halting 00:36:35 basically, a computation that just added an increasing counter to the end of the program text would be universal if you allowed it 00:37:19 since the checker could simply be "run program for counter number of steps" 00:38:07 encode the code in the number of steps to run the tm 00:38:24 in fact even primitive recursive may be strong enough to allow the cheat 00:38:43 no, the encoder cannot do that if it is to halt 00:39:54 bsmntbombdood: or maybe i don't understand what you mean 00:40:48 have a function decode:tape state -> number of steps ran 00:42:01 encode the program into a natural number, run tm that many steps, decode tape contents 00:42:45 that would not be universal, because it always halts. 00:43:27 oh,hmm 00:43:57 note that _only_ the tm is allowed to run indefinitely. i assume that the decoder gets to run once per step, with the current tape state 00:44:18 but not with any own state from previous steps 00:45:58 but still it gets too strong to allow a decoder that is arbitrarily primitive recursive 00:46:23 because that is enough for "run a program n number of steps" inside the decoder 00:47:10 on the other hand, i assume anything grep-like is definitely allowed 00:47:59 which means essentially, fixed memory limit for the checker 00:48:55 and almost anything that is more than that could be used to cheat 00:49:11 even logspace. 00:51:08 because you could simply have a checker that ran N steps or until it ran out of its current resource limit 01:55:55 -!- ehird` has joined. 02:07:11 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:35:14 -!- ehird` has quit. 02:56:24 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:58:58 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:06:40 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:09:51 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:15:35 -!- digital_me has joined. 03:16:45 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 03:19:25 -!- digital_me has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:19:25 -!- sp3tt has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:19:26 -!- meatmanek has quit 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05:37:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:50:32 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:50:09 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:55:25 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 10:15:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:12:56 -!- ihope_ has joined. 11:12:58 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope. 12:31:26 -!- Keymaker has joined. 12:32:06 a new thue program for a change. look-and-say sequence in thue: http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/programs/thue/las.t 12:35:01 by the way, the original (i think) thue interpreter has some bug in it that can happen with 1-character strings (iirc). i can't remember anymore what it exactly was, but i noticed it in the c interpreter when one program i did didn't seem to work correctly and i was sure it was correct. then i made some simple test program and found the bug. so use some other interpreter. 12:36:16 oh, i also uploaded new version of my digital root calculator in thue, not that anyone cares. there's also padovan sequence in underload (using unary) i made recently... 12:37:29 expect some larger and more complex esoprogs again, soon. 12:37:36 -!- Keymaker has left (?). 12:38:04 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:54:28 -!- Pikhq has joined. 13:14:35 -!- jix has joined. 14:07:25 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:14:28 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:22:39 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 14:30:21 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:15:47 -!- crathman has joined. 15:58:14 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 16:00:51 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:19:45 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 16:47:34 * SimonRC imagines some sci-fi about a person transported to a universe with immense negative curvature. 16:48:03 enough that he gets slightly broke bones, but not enough to kill him 16:48:12 ah, the fun you can have with the concept. 17:05:26 what is negative curvature? i wanna join the fun 17:15:54 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:25:30 SimonRC: read "inverted world" 17:25:34 SimonRC: you'll love it 17:27:18 yeah 17:27:20 hmm 17:28:10 stop being interesting without sharing it! 17:28:29 hm? 17:31:07 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 17:31:19 hi 17:33:34 i meant negative curvature and inverted world :) 17:33:39 but i'll ask google 17:36:36 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:37:46 -!- ehird` has joined. 17:50:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:50:46 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:34:32 schooooooooool's out 18:41:10 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:56:45 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:59:26 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:16:20 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:34:31 -!- ehird` has changed nick to NOT-ehird`. 19:59:26 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:18:29 oklopol: You Know You're A Geek When: you just assume that eveyone you meet knows what hyperbolic geometry is. 20:26:49 -!- ihope_ has joined. 20:26:51 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope. 20:43:17 -!- Pikhq has quit (Connection timed out). 21:33:02 -!- Pikhq has joined. 21:53:07 you know you are a geek when you are in #esoteric 21:54:23 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:54:57 -!- helios24 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:22:19 -!- helios24 has joined. 22:41:31 -!- NOT-ehird` has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:42:42 -!- NOT-ehird` has joined. 22:44:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:29:17 -!- Pikhq has joined. 2007-05-18: 00:10:36 -!- NOT-ehird` has quit. 00:13:31 -!- jix__ has joined. 00:21:39 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:26:16 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 00:48:39 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 00:48:56 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:03:33 -!- crathman has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:22:48 -!- jix__ has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 01:35:53 -!- calamari has joined. 01:48:48 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:21:11 hey! this one isn't too bad! http://tones.wolfram.com/id/G8fuTDyewoJcfgFql3KixKw9NU9n11RdNXsQWz7ot0j15YYZ6 02:21:58 except for the use of some crappy format 02:22:16 hm 02:32:17 Just for giggles, I wrote a program to use (attempt to) use genetic algorithms to generate a P'' program that will produce the text "Hello, world!" 02:32:27 The closest it got after 1000 iterations was "HMMMMMMMMMMM!" 02:32:48 (PS I don't have a fegging clue how to do this) 02:33:14 Step one: realise that P'' is a formally defined Brainfuck. 02:33:17 Step two: voila. 02:34:15 Well, it has no I/O 02:34:29 True, true. 02:34:30 If I had given it I/O, I would've said Brainfuck. 02:34:53 What I fail to see is why it's *quite* so hard. 02:34:53 didn't someone do that with malbolge? 02:35:25 Pikhq: My mutations were purely "add something random" and "remove something random" 02:35:46 Realising, of course, that you've already *got* a genetic algorithm for such generation in your HD; it's just a matter of patching it to not do I/O. . . 02:37:07 if i am guessing correctly that the program needs to put "Hello, world!" on the tape then the brainfuck version will not apply directly 02:37:33 oerjan: It's a matter of changing a current genetic algorithm slightly. 02:37:34 Yuh. 02:37:41 And besides, the goal was to WRITE THIS MYSELF. 02:37:42 nope. 02:38:04 the current genetical algorithm is very tied to the use of a fixed set of cells 02:38:14 "ELLLLLLLLLLL!?" :) 02:38:41 For some reason this seems really inclined to repeat the second character a lot. 02:38:45 Change it to replace . with an appropriate loop to copy it into a cell. 02:38:47 it essentially does not attempt to do _instructions_ randomly. 02:38:50 hehehe, somone on c.l.forth made a blanket statement that addrtesses are never negative... 02:39:13 ... needles(s) to say, he got corrected with dozens of examples. 02:39:17 hm, i suppose that _could_ work 02:40:08 what's your fitness function? 02:40:29 you need a better program-mutator... 02:40:48 int fit(char *s) {return 1;} 02:42:47 data Prog = Seq Prog Prog | Loop Prog | Lam | R 02:42:59 You're such a LamR. 02:43:00 directly from the Wikipedia article. 02:43:20 then, you mutate the program by fiddling with the tree 02:43:54 i understood the conversation for a minute there 02:44:51 Also, tree-surgery makes for a good way to mate programs together. 02:45:36 I recall all this from a breif mention of the advantages of LISP for exvolving computer programs in the book Artificial Life (a good book). 02:46:08 The main one being that the explicit tree structures help you avoid syntax errors. 03:00:51 Closest so far: "???????wor??!" 03:01:28 given the nature of BF, perhaps it is an idea to let fitness be based on initial segment 03:01:48 ? 03:02:03 hm, that actually makes more sense for . output 03:02:15 Oh, I see what you mean. 03:02:22 It would give earlier letters a higher precedence. 03:02:36 right 03:03:16 basically anything that fouls up the beginning is likely to foul up the rest too 03:03:18 "?????, wor??" 03:03:39 I'm testing different measurements for fitness. 03:03:44 That one was with diff^0.75 03:04:01 LOL 03:04:07 With diff^0.9: 03:04:09 "HOOOOOOOOOOO!" 03:05:35 lol 03:06:21 I'm going to run ^0.75 for 100000 iterations instead of the 10000 I was just running. 03:06:35 how about you just mark it on the first letter, then, once most programs are getting the first letter right, you kill off all the ones that don't, and start marking on second letter, etc? 03:06:58 GregorR: give them a bonus for not being as slow as molasses, too. 03:09:04 Haw 03:11:00 After 30000 iterations: "H7NNNNNNNNNN!" 03:11:06 but that bonus makes ++++>++++>++++++> like programs win by default 03:12:02 oerjan: Compared to really, *really* weird loops, that's not bad. 03:12:20 Have I mentioned I don't have a fegging clue what I'm doing? 03:12:26 i think so 03:12:45 what language are you working in? 03:12:48 GregorR: can you past som of the code here? 03:12:50 i suggest trying SimonRC's suggestion 03:12:56 bsmntbombdood: D 03:13:00 Yeah. Why're you not working on Plof (I keed, I keed)? :p 03:13:06 I suggest doing what oerjan just said 03:13:24 Pikhq: IKEA? :-P 03:13:24 i suggest avoid a horrible recursion here 03:13:33 *avoiding 03:13:55 oerjan: I see only a few recursions. 03:14:22 Darn, it seems to have stabilized at 40000 iterations and isn't really getting better now. 03:14:36 you have probably hit a local optimum 03:14:51 (simon-rc-agrees (oerjan-suggests (simon-rc-suggests '(Mark letter by leter)))) 03:15:02 OK, OK 03:15:07 any minor change just makes things worse 03:15:34 GregorR: also: use my new datastructure. 03:16:58 * Pikhq should try and get PlofBrainfuck to work. . . 03:17:29 SimonRC: ? 03:20:37 02:41:48 < SimonRC> data Prog = Seq Prog Prog | Loop Prog | Lam | R 03:20:48 I assume you are using strings ATM. 03:22:44 Hrm. 03:23:42 I'm not so sure how to randomize that :) 03:26:15 You just need some operations: spilt a Loop, join Loops, transpose Seq, re-arrange Seq, mutate, splicing, etc. 03:26:26 and insert and delete, fo course 03:27:00 GregorR: it's trivial in any language with algebraic datatypes. 03:27:49 OTOH, you could write 10 classes to do the same thing in an OO language, and claim they were all necessary. 03:28:00 (OO is great for generating work.) 03:28:05 * SimonRC goes to bed 03:28:06 lol 03:28:51 " Object-oriented programming generates a lot of what looks like work. Back in the days of fanfold, there was a type of programmer who would only put five or ten lines of code on a page, preceded by twenty lines of elaborately formatted comments. Object-oriented programming is like crack for these people: it lets you incorporate all this scaffolding right into your source code. Something that a Lisp hacker might handle by pushing a symbol onto a list beco 03:30:44 OO gives a fantastic productivity improvement over procedural languages in the same way that Soviet Communism gave a fantastic productivity improvement over the preceding feudalism. 03:30:49 * SimonRC goes to bed 03:32:23 "He?l?, eo?od!" 03:32:29 I slowed the mutation :) 03:44:15 close 04:00:24 ARGH 04:00:37 I had set a tick limit of 1000 on my P'' interpreter and forgotten about it :( 04:00:56 So actually, it works quite well. 04:25:54 I can't seem to find a way to balance it properly such that it prefers shorter programs ... I think the main problem is that most loops it produces are endless, and it shies away from programs that take the entire time provided. 04:46:16 Should I try something ridiculous now? :P 04:46:35 Such as ... Idonno ... a brainfuck spam classifier X-P 04:47:09 PlofBrainfuck, so I don't have to get my attempt to work. :p 04:47:14 lol 04:48:36 I need a problem that can be solved with an algorithm, but isn't totally discrete. 04:49:53 discrete? 04:50:02 you mean continuous? 04:50:24 No, I mean that I need an algorithm that is NOT discrete. 04:50:27 e.g. IS continuous. 04:50:36 linear programming perhaps? 04:58:59 -!- digital_me has joined. 05:25:25 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:36:07 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 05:38:09 GregorR: bf_txtgen? 05:38:18 isn't that exactly what it does? 05:39:07 Why don't people in #esoteric understand the concept of writing it yourself for the sake of writing it yourself X_X 05:40:37 GregorR: We're also inherently lazy. 05:40:50 :p 06:01:34 -!- digital_me has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:56:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:24:55 -!- sanxiyn has joined. 08:26:06 -!- mightnare has joined. 08:44:25 My attempt with something more similar to SimonRC's suggested tree isn't going well :P 08:44:40 Heywait ... I forgot about loops X-D 08:44:52 So I'm just evolving simple mathematical expressions. 08:46:06 garbage collection for brainfuck 08:46:18 .........................................? 08:47:04 Also, it gets caught in local optima way to easily :( 08:47:10 bsmntbombdood: Eh, what does that do? 08:47:18 well, this bf interpreter i was writing allocated memory in blocks, and the blocks never get freed, so... 08:47:23 Its equation for the hypotenuse of a triangle: x+.5*y X_X 08:48:07 you can move the pointer into a block, never come back, but the block stays allocated 08:49:46 you'd need some detailed code analysis to figure out when it was safe to deallocate a block 08:50:45 it might not be possible without actually executing it 08:53:22 anyway, bedtime 09:48:23 -!- sanxiyn has quit ("전 이만 갑니다."). 11:22:25 -!- mightnare has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 11:33:03 -!- jix has joined. 12:13:26 -!- jix__ has joined. 12:22:39 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 12:33:17 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix. 13:24:51 -!- ihope_ has joined. 13:42:47 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:53:32 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:54:27 -!- Pikhq has joined. 14:32:29 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:03:14 -!- NOT-ehird` has joined. 15:20:08 -!- crathman has joined. 15:28:15 -!- crathman has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]"). 16:46:16 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:23:10 -!- NOT-ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:24:55 -!- digital_me has joined. 18:56:35 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:16:00 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:15:54 -!- ihope_ has joined. 21:15:59 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope. 22:11:11 -!- Figs has joined. 22:11:15 Hello 22:12:41 what would you consider to be the defining parts of a function? 22:17:14 what? 22:17:28 like, return values, sequences of commands, etc 22:18:27 formals, code? 22:19:04 like, what makes a function a function, as opposed to, say, a firetruck 22:26:41 Figs: have you never done math? 22:26:55 I have done math, lament 22:27:16 I'm just trying to think about the building blocks of functions 22:28:57 not sure what those are. 22:31:50 A function is a set of ordered pairs such that there are no two ordered pairs (x,y) and (x,z) in the set such that x != z. 22:32:32 O.o 22:32:43 If (x,y) is in the set, f(x) = y. 22:33:07 The domain is the set of all x, the image is the set of all y. 22:33:19 Unless you want to get into impure functions, which I don't really like. 22:33:53 That is, there's not much theoretical reason to combine the "impure" part with the "function" part 22:34:58 hmm 22:35:01 An impure nullary function is either simply an atomic action or an atomic action paired with an impure unary function. 22:35:14 That is, a pure unary function that produces an inpure nullary function. 22:35:29 would be neat if we had a 'dirty' keyword and a 'clean' keyword as compiler hints :P 22:35:55 void dirty function x() { outside_data +=6; } 22:36:20 You remind me of some of my ideas. 22:36:43 Now, if it's the pair, then it runs the atomic action, then passes its result into the function and runs the result from that. 22:37:00 mmm 22:37:24 My idea was pretty much to have monads and do-notation all over. 22:37:40 I don't know what a monad is 22:37:50 having never really studied functional languages in depth... 22:38:19 A monad is something that seems really complicated until it clicks and you don't know why you didn't see it before. 22:38:40 most things seem to be like that 22:38:56 isn't a closure sort of like a functor? 22:39:14 A functor in the "object representing a function" sense? 22:39:16 Yup. 22:39:24 yeah 22:39:46 * Figs has a primarily C++ background, for reference 22:39:47 Now, essentially, a monad is just what I described with that "impure nullary function" stuff. 22:40:18 what do you mean 'nullary function'? 22:40:23 *by 22:40:31 A function that takes no arguments. 22:40:35 ok 22:40:45 Figs: There is a "dirty" and "clean" keyword. . . 22:41:01 It's called something different, but, IIRC, it was added by C99 (and C++). 22:41:02 effectively, an action with no parameters 22:41:08 Yup. 22:41:13 (if I'm wrong, it sure as hell *is* in GNU C) 22:41:24 :P cool 22:41:32 A monadic type is a certain sort of type containing a type: in Haskell, for example, an I/O action that produces an integer is denoted IO Integer, as an integer is denoted Integer. 22:42:01 The actual monad here is IO. 22:42:24 Defining a monad requires two things: a "return" function and a ">>=" (or "bind") function. 22:43:07 so, you're binding a variable to a nullary function that's impure? 22:43:27 or am I missing it still? 22:43:28 Mm, that's not really what bind does. Just a minute here... 22:43:42 In the IO monad, return represents an action that performs no interaction and returns its result--return 3, for example. 22:44:27 ok 22:44:30 (In Haskell, "calling" a function is denoted like "foo bar" instead of "foo(bar)".) 22:44:58 ah 22:45:01 Bind is a little more complicated. One... sort of tripping point is that one of its arguments is another function. 22:45:19 A functor, I suppose. 22:46:05 >>= is an infix operator, so applying it is written like "foo >>= bar". 22:46:38 ok 22:46:49 The action foo >>= bar first runs the action foo, then applies the function bar to the result. The result from bar is another action, which is then run. 22:46:52 I have no trouble with passing functions to functions -- std::for_each for example ;) 22:47:31 One... problem, I suppose, is that monads need not represent actions. 22:47:54 that does make it a bit more confusing 22:48:13 The list monad, for example: the return function produces a one-element list in this case, and >>=... well. 22:48:20 so, effectively here, what you're doing is bar(foo()) 22:48:24 ? 22:48:31 Yup, essentially. 22:48:33 but it's stored 22:48:35 ? 22:48:55 What's stored? 22:49:01 guess not :P 22:49:02 ok 22:49:09 but it could be, yes? 22:49:27 foo >>= bar does represent bar(foo()), except that foo >>= bar, like all actions here, is treated as a value. 22:49:37 newfunction = bar(foo()) <-- pseudo-code 22:49:43 So if you have a variable somewhere, you can store foo >>= bar in it. 22:49:46 Just like that, yes. 22:49:55 ok 22:50:04 so where's the monad? 22:50:37 The monad itself is IO, the thing you put before a type to say "an action producing something of this type". 22:51:19 so effectively, 22:52:06 function N = F(G); 22:52:12 And the whole purpose of this is to allow for easy observance of side effects, I assume? 22:52:20 Now, to illustrate the >>= function for lists, take [1,2,3] >>= (\x -> [x, x+2]). ("\x -> [x, x+2]" is a function that takes x and returns [x, x+2]: we're essentially defining a function on the fly here.) The result is [1,3,2,4,3,5]: it takes each element of [1,2,3], puts it through the function, and collects all the elements in a single list. 22:52:30 Pikhq: something like that. 22:52:40 Figs: hmm? 22:53:03 ihope: it'd be like the function bit? 22:53:36 ok, 22:53:39 that makes sense 22:53:45 Figs: well, what does "function N = F(G);" mean? 22:54:25 ihope, are you "noticing" me? I'm in a different client than I usually use, so I am not sure why you're writing in red 22:54:52 Nope, I'm just sending plain old messages to the channel. 22:55:04 huh 22:55:05 ok 22:55:11 Figs: this is a test 22:55:12 ahh 22:55:14 ok 22:55:24 it's just trying to get my attn ;) 22:56:08 well, I meant it as pseudo code for a function object return that returns an integer when you call it 22:56:32 the action being the composition of G in F 22:56:39 ie, F(G()) 22:57:54 is that right? 22:58:38 or, for you other example in a pseudo-C++ like language 22:59:52 Well, what's F(G()), then? 23:00:33 function > N = lambda_function(array x) {for each in x, put x,x+2 in y then return y} 23:00:52 if you could do "lambda_function() {}" 23:00:59 in a C++ like language 23:01:50 it'd be interesting to build lambda functions around prototypical objects :P 23:02:13 Now, that looks right. 23:02:15 (ie, objects where I can change the object's members on the fly) 23:02:35 ok, I already knew what monads are then, just not the word 23:03:06 why "monad" though? 23:03:22 Dunno. What else might they be called? 23:03:34 function objects? 23:04:15 Well, there are other kinds of monads entirely. 23:04:16 fonctjects! :D muahahah 23:04:19 oh 23:04:23 Continuation monads, for example. 23:04:34 ehh... 23:04:39 I don't like continuations 23:05:00 they confuse me :P 23:05:10 Confusing indeed. 23:05:26 hmm, I should write a prototype object system in C++ 23:05:29 that'd be neat 23:05:57 maybe I'll do that once I finish my regex system 23:06:16 I need to add so many things to it still to make it useful :P 23:06:20 *sigh* 23:06:55 What do you think about SQL style syntax for prototype objects? 23:07:10 brb, I'll clarify in a minute 23:07:56 -!- Pikhq has quit ("Leaving."). 23:08:57 back 23:09:00 ok, so like 23:09:07 if you think about it 23:09:15 prototype objects are essentially tables 23:11:01 there are labels, type data, and pointers 23:12:03 actually, it might make more sense to modify it 23:12:21 nevermind 23:13:34 hey 23:13:39 are there any regex experts here? 23:13:47 I have a weird question 23:14:48 if I were to allow the combination of patterns with captures(can't remember the right word, but it's like \1, \2, etc), how should I refer to captures in lower levels, or should I really need to? 23:16:21 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:16:57 probably wouldn't need to, would I? 23:17:02 hmmm 23:17:19 yeah 23:17:34 it wouldn't make sense if a capture is in one part of a branch for example, but not another 23:17:38 so only on a sequence 23:18:27 as a part 23:18:31 to match a pattern 23:18:48 so like mmm 23:19:13 subpattern[0] >> 'abc' >> captured[0] 23:22:14 g2g 23:22:15 -!- Figs has quit ("Goodbye World"). 23:29:47 -!- puzzlet has joined. 23:40:29 -!- alex-4 has joined. 23:49:54 -!- ihope_ has joined. 23:50:58 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:57:26 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 2007-05-19: 00:13:36 -!- jix__ has joined. 00:22:55 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:31:25 -!- Pikhq has joined. 00:52:20 * Pikhq is done with his open-computer surgery for now. . . 00:58:51 -!- jix__ has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 01:44:45 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:51:52 HURD sounds nice 02:55:34 It does. And if somebody would care to help out the GNU system maintainer, it would even *be* nice. 02:56:04 (ams, in #natter and ##hurd. . . Ironically, in spite of being GNU maintainer, he's banned from #gnu) 02:56:53 hmph 02:57:49 microkernels are elegant 03:00:02 Pikhq: must be a complete asshole? 03:03:52 Nope. The channel owner kicked out a lot of the ops. 03:11:18 zomg, ams isn't in #gnu anymore? 03:11:34 That channel might be tolerable now, then 03:11:53 lament: You have no idea 03:12:07 03:12:30 heh 03:50:30 -!- digital_me has quit ("leaving"). 03:58:57 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:59:08 #define unless(x) if(!(x)) 04:03:27 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:18:05 -!- EgoBot has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:18:05 -!- SimonRC has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:18:08 -!- SimonRC has joined. 04:19:29 -!- SimonRC has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:19:29 -!- sekhmet has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:23:09 -!- SimonRC has joined. 04:23:33 -!- clog has joined. 04:23:33 -!- clog has joined. 04:23:36 -!- Izzy7 has joined. 04:24:30 -!- sekhmet has joined. 04:27:03 -!- mtve has joined. 05:41:22 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:43:28 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 05:53:05 uh, is anyone here any good with Lazy K ? 05:53:19 Is anyone anywhere any good with Lazy K? ^^ 05:54:19 k, cos i've made a SKI parser and I think it might be like Lazy K without output :\ 05:56:23 well, if it's a lazy ski parser, then yes, it is. 05:56:32 lazy K is just a few combinator languages put together isn't it? 06:08:33 i made a ski parser at 2 levels: level 1 = lazy evaluation, level 2 = parse brackets when they're being evaluated on 06:08:57 level 2 is for getting a really good evaluation and it allows SII(SII) to not crash the program 06:09:11 however, SSS(SI)I would crash it quite nicely 06:17:31 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("haaaaaaaaaa"). 07:23:06 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:24:27 GreaseMonkey: I pondered a bit how you could implement Lazy K such as to memorize fixpoints. 07:27:09 i think it would require something like your level 2, plus memorizing the result of XX functions with X. 07:29:40 problem is SIIX -> X(IX), so it needs to simplify the I away before knowing if IX will be evaluated. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:24 i could make an I-truncater 08:02:47 there is also "Level 3" parsing which my parser cannot parse (evaluate brackets from the top-down) 08:05:43 another option i thought of was to recognize the term SII and treat it specially. 08:10:13 yeah, that'd speed it up 09:11:19 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 11:11:34 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("If they can not go and en-force the damn law / This new law com-ing up will make them look so poor / So if it's been bad, jus). 12:30:38 -!- helios24 has quit ("leaving"). 13:12:11 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 13:20:26 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:23:59 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:25:24 -!- jix__ has joined. 16:18:39 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 16:19:18 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:32:16 -!- Feuermonster has joined. 16:42:57 I made a new esoteric language with only one instruction: 0 16:43:23 It may print hello, world. But It may do something else. 17:15:17 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix. 17:17:35 Feuermonster: ahh 17:17:39 this sounds familiar 17:20:02 http://clonkturm.cl.ohost.de/OIIEFAVGEL.exe <- Interpreter for windows. 17:20:21 You can write some 0 in the TexBox and click NULL it. 17:20:31 You can write more than one 0. 17:24:36 hmm 17:24:43 do you have the source around? 17:27:35 http://rafb.net/p/FqFCCF37.html 17:39:00 Each 0 is a random operationen. 17:43:46 cool 18:00:08 um.. that doesn't look like C++ 18:06:06 who said anything about C++? 18:06:19 "Pasted as C++" 18:07:28 Its VisualBasic. 18:07:44 Yes, but whoever pasted it pasted it as C++ 18:07:47 grr 18:07:54 http://rafb.net/p/joaReZ71.html 18:08:02 Now it is pasted as VB 18:08:17 ty 18:36:55 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:53:24 Feuermonster: Why VB? 18:53:26 WHY?!? 18:53:39 That's probably more esoteric than OISC. 18:54:52 i read somewhere that Visual Basic is the most widely used programming language. 18:55:03 hardly esoteric. 18:56:39 Fine. It's *worthy* of being called esoteric. 18:57:02 VB is the easiest language. 18:57:06 And has RAID: 18:57:10 -: +. 18:57:24 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:57:33 So I can make a GUI. 18:57:59 I cant even read a C++ Programm. 18:58:06 It's perhaps the most disgusting language I know of. 18:58:29 And I do Brainfuck in my free time. 19:00:27 Nearly every esoteric language is easier to learn than C++. 19:01:52 That's because C++ is more powerful. 19:02:13 No. It's because, you need to include headers. 19:02:35 That's perhaps the easiest thing about C++. 19:02:46 #include 19:02:49 And you cant write if(foo.Find("foo")) 19:03:00 Can now that you've got string.h 19:03:10 you need something like if (!(foo.Find("foo") = std::npos)) 19:03:30 the fact that nearly no esoteric language has a proper module system is not necessarily positive. 19:03:53 incidentally, Pikhq's BFM comes to mind as one that does have include. 19:04:43 Yeah; it's fairly weird even for an esolang. 19:05:04 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:06:12 Also, I fail to see what's so hard about if(foo.find("foo") != std::npos) 19:06:36 You need a lot of lines just to make if(foo.Contain("foo")) Then foo = foo.Replace("foo","fooo) in C++ 19:06:40 Fine, fine. It'd be easier if foo.find was declared to return the unsigned 0 instead of the unsigned std::npos. . . 19:06:53 +s 19:06:59 +" 19:07:45 but what does it return for a match at the beginning of the string? 19:08:24 * oerjan doesn't know c++ but if it returns position then that would be 0 too 19:08:35 you should do like php and have not finding it return false and the first index 0 and have an implicit conversion between false and 0 19:08:46 Ah. Yeah, that'd be why. 19:08:48 i think that's pretty clever. 19:09:08 C++ gets a Cism for true and false. . . 19:09:12 #define TRUE 1 19:09:15 #define FALSE 0 19:09:26 but requires dynamic typing. or Haskell Maybe types. 19:10:51 lookup :: Eq a => a -> [(a,b)] -> Maybe b 19:13:38 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 19:17:18 Anyway, I wouldnt know, how to write OIIEFAVGEL in C++ 19:19:42 .oO(I dont know how to write anything in C++) 19:20:30 hm... 19:21:06 OIIEFAVGEL = one instruction is enough for a very good esoteric language 19:21:22 subleq? 19:21:28 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 19:21:43 -!- jix__ has joined. 19:28:42 um, you don't need Randomize _inside_ the loop. 19:29:19 and you miss a Dim for var. 19:30:34 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:31:13 Thats just the source of the parsing 19:31:46 What is there to parse?!? 19:31:56 ToParse = TextBox.Text 19:32:02 I could store OIEFAVGEL code within an int! 19:32:19 int parsed_code=code.size(); 19:32:21 * oerjan doesn't get all the people who call nearly their entire interpreters "the parser" 19:32:59 Surely a parser just lets you get at the individual nodes and all that so that your compiler can do stuff with it? 19:34:24 But, then, you can write mor than just 0. 19:34:28 i think i would call that thing "the main interpreter loop" 19:34:56 in OIIEFAVGEL there is only one valid character: 0 19:34:59 being essentially a repl sort of thing 19:37:15 My parser for your language. . . 19:37:24 It's just a "joke language". You cant make any "good" Programms with OIIEFAVGEL. 19:37:29 int i; 19:38:12 paste the code with rafb.net/paste/ 19:38:34 Feuermonster: it was only one line 19:38:40 string newcode; 19:38:40 while(i!=string::npos) {i = code.find(i, 1, "0"); newcode += 0;} 19:38:44 // done 19:38:51 Err. 19:38:58 s/0;/"0";/ 19:39:17 See? Damned simple to parse. 19:39:47 But, that doesnt make anything. 19:39:53 Sure it does. 19:39:58 And what? 19:40:04 -!- jix__ has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 19:40:05 It cant print out anything. 19:40:08 It gets you a string called newcode which has each char as a node. 19:40:24 That's all a parser does: in goes code, out goes parsed nodes. 19:40:56 And the interpreter? while(i!=newcode.size()) {do_interp();i++} 19:41:09 (where do_interp randomly selects an operation to perform) 19:41:22 O(n^2) ftw' 19:41:29 pikhq: you are forgetting the parser error message 19:41:40 oerjan: Right. . . 19:41:44 After the parser: 19:42:26 if(i == 0){error("ERROR: couldn't find \"0\" in" << code);} 19:43:15 (in C++, I regularly define a macro "error" as: #define error(x) {cerr << x << endl;exit(1);} 20:28:51 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:13:16 * SimonRC wonders what the proper way to uninstall per-user software is 21:13:21 on Debain 21:13:32 rm 21:13:37 *sigh* 21:18:39 * SimonRC decides to use rm 21:23:46 http://www.vjn.fi/s/Ulimon.mp3 hope you like my music 21:24:41 -!- Feuermonster has quit. 21:27:48 oklopol: :-S 21:27:56 ow my earys 21:28:03 *ears 21:28:19 WTF is all that? 21:28:27 it was a 5 minute project, but i kinda... you know... it's great <3 21:28:37 It;s a load of random noises 21:28:38 me & audacity 21:28:43 nah 21:29:28 * SimonRC listens to some the other mp3s 21:29:36 :) 21:29:46 wtf is "black.mp3"? I needs a video 21:29:49 *it 21:30:07 http://www.codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogg 21:30:44 Just how did you generate brainfuck.mp3? It is some kind of trace, or the output of one? 21:30:56 http://www.vjn.fi/s/brainfuck.mp3 ? 21:31:00 yeah 21:31:11 audacity 21:31:34 also, a program of mine that creates random melodies 21:31:38 Oh, I thought you might have derived it from a running Brainfuck program somehow 21:31:57 yeah... i wish it had something to do with brainfuck 21:32:21 i made a bf interpreter with output going into a mid file that's played when the program terminates 21:32:38 but it turned out i only managed to create square and saw 21:32:46 i wonder why... 21:32:57 a *midi* file?! 21:33:04 haha, mp3 21:33:05 sorry 21:33:12 * Pikhq should play around with BFaudio a bit. . . 21:33:41 i thought i'd make it mid output, but i had the wav one finished by then 21:33:52 Pikhq: what's that? 21:34:46 ISTR a story about an old (big) computer that created a load of radio noise. If you tuned a radio to the right frequency, you could hear the program running, and with practice tell which part of which program it was, and if it had crashed. 21:35:16 Well, the ENIAC was used to play music, everybody knows that story :) 21:35:20 It's a program that converts raw audio to Brainfuck code to output that. 21:35:21 I find that I can hear webpages loading (on my earphones) if there is no other sound playing. 21:35:25 GregorR: No, I don't. . . 21:35:31 BURN 21:36:08 * SimonRC wonders what the best way to derive sound from a running brainfuck program would be. 21:36:19 i.e. what would give the best effect? 21:36:37 Something like CHOON might work. 21:36:44 8 commands... 8 notes in a scale 21:36:52 no, not fast enough 21:37:10 (I find the CHOON division program result quite musical actually.) 21:37:22 you would want 44k instr/sec, usually 21:37:38 okay.. so byte per instruction 21:37:46 * GregorR thinks that doing 8 commands->8 notes is a bad idea. 21:37:48 Argh! This mp3 has an inaudible sound that makes my sinu hurt, at the end! 21:37:56 Representing the tape is probably a bad idea. 21:38:00 ERM 21:38:01 heh 21:38:03 Representing the tape is probably a better idea. 21:38:18 nah, it only changes a little at a time... 21:38:24 S'truth. 21:38:44 if you want to be able to know where you are in the program then just have it tell you that... 21:38:56 unless, you set the output amplitude to be the current byte on the tape at each instruction... 21:39:15 moving over stacks and the like would produce a cool noise 21:40:09 -!- oerjan has quit ("beep beep beep beep"). 21:40:12 prolly not, since you can't produce > 170 hZ 21:40:14 oh 21:40:19 actually of course you can 21:40:31 because you can move, ehh 21:40:33 heh 21:42:14 ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>[<>] will start producing ~16000 or 11025 depending on [] management 21:42:20 ...management 21:44:18 CHOON? 21:45:04 just have it play the value of the current cell 21:45:27 that'd be 0 hZ 21:45:50 no, it would be whatever the instruction execution rate was 21:45:56 no 21:46:13 bitrate ~ tone 21:46:17 ... 21:46:21 bitrate != tone 21:46:51 +[>++++++++++----------<] plays a sine wave 21:47:03 bsmntbombdood: You forget output. 21:47:18 Pikhq: each cycle the current value is output 21:47:34 Um, that's not BFaudio, then. 21:47:44 bsmntbombdood: that's saw 21:47:54 plus, it's not as fast as mine 21:48:01 i mean, high 21:48:03 BFaudio outputs raw audio for /dev/dsp via stdout. ;) 21:48:17 (it could be made better if PESOIX were implemented) 21:48:19 plus it's amplitude is so small even a monkey couldn't hear it 21:48:21 oh, duh 21:48:27 ouch! infinite makefile recursion!.... 21:48:38 the "clean" rule includes the line: 21:48:42 just pipe the output of your interpreter to aplay 21:48:45 clean: make clean 21:48:45 cd gc; $(MAKE) clean 21:48:45 ? 21:48:59 but the dir gc doesn;t exist (broken symlink) 21:49:00 That's bad style. 21:49:10 $(MAKE) -c gc clean 21:49:10 That's not particularly bad style. 21:49:18 That's NEW style. 21:49:28 It's bad style for exactly the error SimonRC is getting. 21:49:48 Pikhq: I mean that make -C hasn't always existed :) 21:50:09 Ah. 21:50:17 There's a *reason* it exists now. ;) 21:50:22 Right ;) 21:52:14 Dear writers of Joy. Please distrubute the *contents* of directories, not broken symlinks to them. Love Simon. 21:52:27 lol 21:52:32 bastards 21:52:47 What's really bad is that automake by default creates all the necessary automake scripts with symlinks rather than copies. 21:53:15 yup, they fucked up 21:53:20 So people will use automake without -c and distribute utterly broken tarballs with symlinks to nonexisting files :) 21:53:59 Oh thats a load of fucking use(!) Theier bugfix page gives me a 404. 22:08:57 "installer" and "suprise" are not generally two words you want to go togther. 22:18:37 What -- you want people to be _bored_ with their installers? 22:19:18 CONGRATULATIONS! You're the 100th person to install this software! So I'm reformatting your hard drive! 22:19:23 heh 22:51:08 this "factor" thin glooks interesting. Quite why the heck the installer spends several seconds doing things like "Compiling *" I don't know. 22:53:10 GregorR: ERROR: fsck not found in path 22:53:12 Err. 22:53:15 mkfs 22:56:30 GregorR: Where's the latest EgoBF? 22:56:51 Not the one on esolangs.org, since I know that you've touched it since 2005? 23:08:24 I haven't touched it since 2005. 23:09:08 I remember you doing a minor bug fix last year. 23:09:21 ... I don't remember that ^^ 23:09:24 But maybe I have :P 23:09:30 I can't check right now, I'm on my way out. 23:09:35 Something about the compiler outputting borken code. 23:12:33 hmm, I think I am begining to like Forth. 23:13:01 I thought "What might the word be to print a newline?", gueesed it was "nl", and I was right! 23:13:15 i think i should stop listening to ulimon.mp3 23:13:18 then similarly for "flush" being the command to flush stdout 23:14:21 just one more time 23:14:31 oklopol: where is it? 23:14:56 http://www.vjn.fi/s/Ulimon.mp3 << this one 23:15:32 oh, that 23:15:39 why????? 23:15:59 you're right, no reason to stop 23:16:02 I like http://lemondemon.com/lemondemon/Word%20Disassociation.mp3 (plug, plug) 23:16:18 I mean, why are you listening to it at *all*? 23:16:24 i like it 23:16:29 erm..... ok 23:16:51 i like all my music :) 23:16:52 me <3 23:16:54 ... 23:18:58 that piece is not really interesting 23:19:08 the word thing 23:19:46 well, i admit the base chord in the chorus being both major and minor alternatively is kinda cool 23:20:34 but otherwise it's just loop and ancient chord ...something 23:20:48 it seems i have no vocabulary for discussing music in english 23:20:54 nice. 23:22:26 the whole day i've been trying to get a guy to understand c does not have the perfect syntax 23:24:17 he wants a scripting language for his os, i agreed to make it, so i design this cool syntax... and suddenly he says he's got the spec ready and sends me a text file with half of c syntax specified so bad i didn't even understand it was a spec at first 23:24:30 i know some stupid ppl 23:29:38 sexps are the ultimate syntax. ;) 23:29:57 they're nice, yeah 23:30:35 anything else is just syntactic sugar over it 23:30:39 okokokokoko 23:31:39 SimonRC: i'm pretty sure you don't like it because you don't understand the lyrics, they are very important 23:31:51 ulimon.mp3 i mean 23:33:29 heh 23:34:12 I like factor, so far 23:34:24 they were generated by translating back and forth with babelfish 23:34:33 from the pokemon lyrics 23:34:39 hmm 23:34:56 so it's random and plagiated at the same time 23:34:59 pretty clever 23:36:16 ITYM "plagarised" 23:36:23 damn 23:36:29 i wasn't sure about that 23:39:14 ITYM "plagiarised". 23:39:36 1. plagiarize, plagiarise, lift -- (take without referencing from someone else's writing or speech; of intellectual property) 23:39:50 You evil intellectual property stealer, you. 23:40:32 babelfish did it, i was but a goon. 2007-05-20: 03:23:51 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:16:43 Factor (a Forth-like language) FTW! 05:16:45 zzzzzz 05:30:06 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:24:41 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:05:34 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 12:09:20 -!- jix has joined. 12:24:47 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:43:21 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 13:36:27 huh. it's usually called "pizda" 14:33:54 what is? 14:48:43 * SimonRC reads about a small company that has a 2:1 manager:developer ratio. 14:48:45 sigh 14:49:52 ah, wait, it's 3:2 15:32:10 SimonRC: Sounds a bit too much like a 3:2 guard:prisoner ratio. 15:35:08 * SimonRC recounts the joke about the two lions. 15:37:53 Pikhq: It's much worse when it's 3:2 prisoner:citizen ratio. 15:40:38 alex-4: Makes the revolution easy; the government's under arrest already (at least partially). :p 15:43:17 Do prisoners count as citizens? 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WWII was a war between nations and empires. 21:28:29 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 23:30:13 -!- atrapado has joined. 23:39:06 -!- meatmanek has joined. 23:39:07 -!- meatmanek has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:50:31 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 23:52:47 -!- meatmanek has joined. 23:59:03 Permission requested to use my brain. 23:59:42 fine by me 2007-05-21: 00:00:17 communal brainage 00:03:01 Factor FTW! 00:03:21 SimonRC has found a new language 00:03:26 concatenative now 00:04:40 -!- atrapado has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:45:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 01:54:33 -!- calamari has joined. 06:05:14 calamalamari 06:06:32 calamari on the side 06:09:04 I'd like that deep fried, thanks. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:47:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 08:57:56 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 10:29:39 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("nihongo wo hanasanai hito ha nihon ni itte mo yokunai da."). 13:08:09 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:14:07 -!- Pikhq has joined. 14:53:32 -!- helios24_ has joined. 14:59:29 -!- jix has joined. 15:04:25 -!- helios24 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:12:01 i wish i were as cool as you all 16:20:05 I found that the *original* "Spelling Chequer" poem is still preserved in the Web Archive: 16:20:08 http://web.archive.org/web/20050116015142/http://www.cfwf.ca/farmj/fjjun96/#spell 16:20:11 Web Archive FTW! 16:43:50 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:33:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:38:52 -!- SuperAussieEvil has joined. 17:40:18 State my name. 17:40:56 Please ignore previous request 17:41:10 -!- SuperAussieEvil has quit (Client Quit). 17:47:36 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 17:50:44 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:50:45 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:54:21 -!- SuperAussieEvil has joined. 17:54:38 -!- SuperAussieEvil has changed nick to toiletweasel. 17:55:40 I have an idea for a programming language based on pokmon. 17:56:04 I think I can take Chef and transform it a bit. 17:57:38 -!- toiletweasel has quit (Client Quit). 17:58:33 -!- SuperAussieEvil has joined. 18:01:38 PING? 18:02:57 Hello? 18:07:25 o 18:10:33 -!- SuperAussieEvil has quit ("Ciao!"). 18:10:35 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:15:06 * SimonRC decides that the creator of the shock site goatse.cz was a sick bastard. 18:15:09 Ow my eyes! 18:15:12 It doesn't even have a DOCTYPE declaration! 18:15:15 Never mind any sort of seperation of presentation and content 18:15:19 there are horrors like: 18:15:31 good old HTML 3.x, this, I'm sure. 18:15:54 It's a good job I was using a text-only browser. 18:17:18 why is that horr...ific? 18:18:13 speaking of me not knowing the adjective form of horror... got the top grade in english in the matriculation exams today 18:18:19 finland must really suck 18:28:48 There are at least three adjective forms. 18:28:52 Horrible, horrifying and horrific. 18:28:57 Each have slightly different meanings. 18:29:01 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 18:29:02 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 18:29:18 matriculation sounds painful. 18:31:17 Did you know that cook and cookie are not cognates? 18:31:30 Neither are fear, fright, and afraid. 18:32:35 actually i'm pretty sure i know the meanings... guess i'm tired or something 18:32:50 your mum is a cognate and i'm goint to sleep 18:32:52 n8 18:33:08 wtf am i saying 18:33:24 scratch it all, i have to watch south park 18:34:56 also, horrendous 18:38:07 horrilarious 19:19:08 i lul'd 19:22:49 I sometimes have problems with this newfangled interweb slang. Would that be Left Upper Lobe or Love U Lots? 19:23:08 ...no 19:24:08 (i also never quite got into this Age of Irony thing.) 19:24:46 past participle of "to lol" with a dash of punk'd flair 19:25:14 hm. lol, lols, lul'd, has lollen? 19:25:55 many variations are considered correct 19:28:41 hm. if you die of laughing is that a lollabye? 19:30:08 depends on context, probably 19:31:22 i guess if your head explodes from laughing that would a lollipop. 19:31:27 *be 19:35:39 very complex and versitile language 19:36:44 blah 19:55:49 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 19:59:12 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:03:02 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:13:55 i HATE rizon and njabl.org / je hait rizon et njabl.org 20:20:44 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:40:00 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 20:52:56 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 21:10:07 what 21:27:46 nice, OLPC has forth 21:28:50 no c though :/ 22:02:08 eh? 22:02:14 Open Linux PC? 22:02:40 erm 22:02:48 I men, One Laptop Per Child? 22:11:42 yeah 22:19:49 -!- crathman has joined. 22:26:35 -!- crathman has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]"). 22:27:02 stupid idea 22:53:44 -!- digital_me has joined. 22:58:25 -!- digital_me_ has joined. 23:06:25 -!- digital_me has quit (Nick collision from services.). 23:06:35 -!- digital_me_ has changed nick to digital_me. 23:07:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to xor. 23:11:17 -!- calamari has joined. 23:22:51 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:28:54 -!- calamari has joined. 2007-05-22: 00:42:23 -!- calamari has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 00:44:57 -!- calamari has joined. 01:01:18 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 01:31:55 -!- calamari has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:37:00 -!- calamari has joined. 02:10:01 -!- xor has quit ("fuck you"). 02:23:20 -!- calamari has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:24:59 -!- calamari has joined. 05:59:32 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 06:10:56 -!- digital_me has quit (Connection timed out). 06:15:21 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 06:15:54 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:05:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 10:20:14 Wait, did I say that out loud? 11:21:15 I didn't hear anything. 12:49:02 that was a punchline from explosm.net 12:49:03 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:49:58 there are two panels of thses three guys just sitting around. in the third panel, one guy says: "Did I say that out loud?" 12:58:26 Oh, right; I've seen that. 13:22:14 -!- jix__ has joined. 13:56:45 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix. 14:55:27 -!- calamari has joined. 16:04:59 -!- calamari has left (?). 16:09:03 -!- Pikhq has joined. 16:47:09 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:14:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:03:57 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 20:04:26 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:23:07 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 22:17:31 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:32:09 * Pikhq does a wordcount on BFM. . . 22:32:11 Holy crap. 22:32:21 5392 lines of code in that little thing. 22:32:49 . . . Ah. Nearly 4000 are auto-generated in stdcons.bfm. 22:38:51 -!- SuperAussieEvil9 has joined. 22:39:37 Hello? 22:39:39 -!- SuperAussieEvil9 has quit (Client Quit). 22:39:58 -!- SuperAussieEvil6 has joined. 22:40:01 'Lo. 22:40:18 Did you read my new idea on the wiki? 22:40:23 No, I haven't. 22:40:42 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/PokArena 22:42:23 Kinda based on Chef 22:43:59 I'm not seeing an article of that name. . . 22:44:05 it requires some real skill to create a language that actually has to do with pokemon 22:44:18 Over 400 in the national dex. 22:44:36 The first 256 are open game 22:44:46 easy to create a lang and rename commands to be pokemon phrases though 22:44:51 i guess that's the plan? 22:45:00 Yeah. 22:45:31 I didn't like the idea of using just pure ASCII numbers for programming. 22:45:54 Now you either gotta know your Pokedex, or die in the dust 22:46:20 Bwa-ha-ha-ha-haa 22:47:02 mm yes, now you create an assembly language, index the commands, the rest is just look-upping 22:47:05 from the pokedex 22:47:17 you can translate anything to pokemons, of course. 22:47:20 any binary file 22:47:34 so the language can be designed completely separately 22:47:51 but i suppose you know that and ask for help in designing it 22:48:00 Yes. 22:48:03 that's not all that esoteric, so i'll watch south park :) 22:48:13 too late for anything too serious 22:48:23 Hey, Chef ain't exactly esoteric either 22:49:05 it must not be serious, it need not be esoteric :) 22:49:30 fun is also non-serious, i'd say 22:52:55 ... 22:55:24 What'd be *fun* is defining a language in such a way that you've got a series of Pokemon, each with a set of attacks which are used. . . The interpreter goes through the defined party and executes each Pokemon's attacks. 22:57:00 or even better, something like the magic the gathering thing i read about somewhere, where the language is just a playing strategy that makes mtg tc :) 22:57:14 there are so many mtg card it might even be possible 22:57:27 since even a rotten apple on a string is tc. 22:57:36 as a wise man once said 22:57:38 Oh yeah, do attacks as stack functions. 22:58:58 -!- atrapado has joined. 22:59:32 Such that you'll find yourself going, "Now was 'Ember' the register increase move?" 23:03:21 >:D 23:03:52 I know what move's gonna stop the program, that's obvious. 23:04:17 And it's not the "Player Defeated" end-of-program delcaration 23:05:06 It's selfdestruct. 23:06:15 that should be for exit(1) 23:07:04 Yeah 23:07:22 heh, progemon, where you catch progemons and use their evil moves to segfault their enemy 23:08:01 Like the brainfart battles? 23:08:14 i haven't heard of those 23:08:45 The noop would be equally obvious. . . 23:08:47 Splash. ;) 23:08:53 :D 23:10:23 Yeah. 23:10:53 Perhaps Whirlwind or Roar to clear the stack. 23:10:58 randomization can be done with metronome 23:11:02 pretty tricky though 23:12:35 Hmm. . . Looping. . . 23:12:42 Rollout 23:13:04 hmm 23:13:11 i think there are forms of recursion there... 23:13:29 it's many years since i played 23:14:30 -!- sekhmet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:14:33 -!- sekhmet has joined. 23:16:11 I got it! 23:16:14 Encore! 23:16:20 encore? 23:16:44 Forces the pokemon to repeat the prevoius move for 5 turns 23:16:53 ah yeah 23:17:16 but looping is already how battles are fought 23:17:27 hit - hit - hit - hit - etc. 23:22:07 What's needed is a way to change the Pokemon that will be executed. . . 23:22:28 many moves change current pokemon 23:22:32 ...at least some 23:23:15 I've got an idea for a Pokemon call, at least. Not sure if it adds to Turing completeness, though. 23:23:48 well, storing data is kinda hard 23:23:55 Mimic will pop a number off the stack, and the current Pokemon will mimic that Pokemon (this assumes that the specified Pokemon are numbered). 23:24:33 and push? 23:24:57 Push and pop would need to be implemented. . . Probably a physical attack of some sort. 23:25:17 Now, will Pokemon be limited to 4 attacks, or will they have more? 23:25:49 if you can change pokemon to any other, i don't think you need more 23:26:44 Soon as the mimiced Pokemon's attacks are done, it goes back to the mimicing Pokemon. . . 23:26:50 Yeah, I think that should do it. 23:27:00 It'll be annoying and weird, but it'll work. ;) 23:27:21 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 23:28:26 i smell recursion there 23:28:40 not recursion... hmm... 23:29:01 fuck my brain :< 23:30:04 -!- atrapado has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:31:41 Recursion can happen with that, though. 23:32:26 pokemon 1 { add_attack, Mimic, Splash, Splash }; 23:33:22 add_attack? 23:36:06 -!- SuperAussieEvil6 has quit ("Tried to kill init!"). 23:44:34 I'm not sure what the attack would be for that. 23:49:13 Psuedo-C: push(pop()++); 2007-05-23: 01:34:16 i've never quite understood how it can be so quiet here at this hour 01:34:24 3:33 here 01:34:33 so in america, it's prime time right? 01:34:42 am i right, folks? 01:34:51 but, seriously, sp ----> 01:40:10 actually 01:40:24 might be the time when people go to school and shit 01:49:48 In theory. 01:50:04 I'm just busy doing other things, like trying to get a PS2 emulator working. 01:59:07 well i should sleep.... hope you get it working 01:59:10 playstation? 01:59:23 i've heard of those. 01:59:25 -----------> 01:59:31 Mmkay. . . 01:59:42 I've got myself a working PS2 emulator. . . Which runs damned slowly. 02:00:25 i've actually played the playstation 1 demo cd games... and prolly something else 02:00:28 but i'm not proud of it 02:00:39 -!- calamari has joined. 02:01:20 my eyes hurt like hell ------> 02:01:47 too much masturbation... sad 02:02:48 . . . Ah. The x86_64 build currently has an unoptimized recompiler, but the x86 build is fairly optimized. 02:06:18 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 02:14:53 355/113 02:29:10 masturbation causes eye pain? 02:30:04 what's a good function to score rational approximations to pi? 02:30:25 i'm thinking score(a, b) = (log(b, 10) + log(a, 10) + 2) * -1./log(abs(a/b - pi), 10) 02:31:18 where a/b is the approximation 02:31:38 calculate it and use the fact doubles are easily converted to rationals... ta-daa 02:32:29 sleep, perhaps -------> 02:35:53 355/113 turns out to be a very good approximation using that metric 02:36:58 the best with a denomiator under 10**7, in fact 02:41:23 yes 02:41:30 -!- SuperAussieEvll has joined. 02:41:35 the next one is humongous 02:41:48 i need to rewrite this code 02:41:54 python is not a good language for this 02:42:16 Hi all 02:43:52 bsmntbombdood: pastebin? 02:44:41 http://pastebin.ca/503834 02:44:52 i'm redoing it in c right now 02:47:16 * SimonRC re-does it in Haskell 02:50:33 mine will be faster :P 02:55:05 Argh! Haskell numeric libraries == pain. 02:59:35 pain pain pain 03:05:09 done 03:08:01 * SuperAussieEvll falls over 03:08:52 jeez 03:08:57 none under 10**8 03:12:04 I have results too 03:15:20 there needs to be a better than brute force algorithm to do this 03:19:46 what about 312689/99532 ? 03:20:57 that seems to be closer 03:21:02 that has a score of 14.7 03:21:10 355/113 has a score of 7.7 03:21:34 according to Haskell's Doubles and the window calculator, it is closer 03:21:46 closer to pi, yes 03:21:47 what is your scoring syste,? 03:22:00 but you have to take into account the lengths of the numbers 03:22:12 (log(b) + log(a) + 2) / -log(abs(a/b - pi)) 03:23:17 in that case there may not be anything better than 355/113, ever 03:25:16 possible 03:35:16 wtf? 03:35:31 -O2 hurts the performance 03:38:01 if you use (log(b) + log(a) + 2) * abs(a/b - pi), there are lots 03:45:13 i'll find some approximations for e now 03:45:54 193/71 03:46:01 2721/1001 03:46:13 49171/18089 03:46:16 that's interesting 03:46:42 1084483/398959 03:49:31 28245729/10391023 03:49:37 i wonder why there's so many more 04:12:13 How does -O2 *hurt* performance (in comparison to what)? 04:16:26 in comparison to -O0 04:16:59 i'm running it with denominators up to 10**11, get back to you in 15 hours on that 04:23:59 . . . *How*?!? 04:24:38 #ifdef O 2 04:24:38 run_slow(); 04:24:38 #endif 04:24:39 ? 04:29:09 i dunno, it just happens 04:35:29 I think your C compiler's broken. 04:36:30 gcc (GCC) 4.1.2 20061115 04:37:20 -!- Pikhq has quit ("Leaving."). 04:38:09 -!- Pikhq has joined. 05:00:58 ah ha! 05:01:04 9978066541/3176117225 05:04:00 after this the floating point errors will make it worthless 05:04:08 * bsmntbombdood pulls out the GMP manual 05:05:19 What language are you using? C, C++? 05:05:23 C 05:05:28 * Pikhq really prefers C++ for GMP stuff. . . 05:05:44 yeah, operator overloading is good sometimes 05:05:57 If used right, it's wonderful. 05:06:25 If you do something weird like make operator+ do multiplication, though, I will have to hunt someone down and kill that someone. 05:09:54 hrm 05:10:28 should i use mpz_ts for the rational 05:10:43 that is, allow numbers greater than 2**64? 05:11:20 naw, no way i'm going to do that many iterations 05:11:28 Uh. . . Why would you use an integer for a non-integer? 05:11:47 ? 05:12:45 mpz_t is the GMP integer type. . . 05:12:49 yeah 05:12:58 And I assume by rational, you mean "non-integer rational". 05:13:11 (otherwise, why not just say integer?) 05:13:17 a rational is two integers 05:13:26 Um, yeah. 05:13:35 I paid attention that day of middle school. 05:14:17 Why not use, say, mpq_t? 05:15:08 because i don't actually do anything with the rational 05:15:27 i just do stuff with its numerator, denominator 05:17:05 typedef struct {mpz_t numerator,denominator} mpq_t; is, I believe, the mpq_t definition. 05:18:31 Of course, you could use the macros mpq_numref and mpq_denref. . . 05:19:41 Or just do it your own way, and wait as I wonder why you need the numerator and denominator of a rational, but not the rational itself. 05:21:37 a = round(b*pi); error = (log(b) + log(a) + 2) / -log(abs(a/b - pi)); if(error < min_error) {min_error = error; min_denom = b;} 05:21:40 that's what i d 05:21:41 o 05:21:45 where a/b is the rational 05:23:02 int main(){mpz_class a,b;/* your code*/} 05:23:13 And that's what I do. 05:23:27 c++ = suck 05:24:15 real men use mpz_add(tmp, a, b) instead of a+b 05:25:37 Realise that c++ = suck *really* means that c sucks, and c then gets incremented. 05:29:23 tmp = c++; tmp == suck 05:30:20 And you've not changed the meaning at all. . . You've just managed to pour some more memory into it. 05:30:50 tmp = c++; means that tmp is set to c, and c is then incremented. Then you say that tmp == suck. 05:30:55 oops 05:30:58 Since tmp==c, c==suck. 05:31:41 c++ won't let itself be insulted! 05:32:09 which actually means c won't let itself be insulted 05:32:15 it never stops! 05:32:15 Yup. 05:32:27 That's what you get for failing at C semantics. 05:32:45 (and thereby failing at C++ semantics) 05:33:38 why be redundant? 05:33:46 C++ == C, remember 05:33:55 Nope. 05:34:19 The second "c" has an incremented value. 05:34:39 i think it's not legal 05:34:40 However, (C == C++) *does* return true. 05:34:48 It's perfectly legal. 05:37:31 Hrm. Something's wrong with my compiler. . . 05:37:38 I've got it saying (2 == 3). 05:38:33 ? 05:39:16 * Pikhq kicks C in the shins for a bit 05:39:44 It's also saying: 05:39:48 int c = 0; 05:40:19 (c++ == 1) is true, then (c == 1) is true, and finally (c++ == c). 05:40:38 And, after that, it says c == 2. 05:40:41 gcc says that c++==c 05:40:43 Just to make things more confusing. 05:41:27 with -Wall it also says warning: operation on ‘c’ may be undefined 05:42:16 Which would explain why the hell something weird is happening. 05:43:46 apparently GMP doesn't support operations with long longs 05:44:03 i'll have to use mpz_t after all 05:44:34 Well, yeah. . . GMP is a bignum library, not a native datatype library. 06:06:49 -!- SuperAussieEvll has quit ("Leaving"). 06:59:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:04:50 -!- h|barbobot has joined. 07:12:45 bsmntbombdood: you need to read up on continued fractions. 07:13:00 oerjan: i tried that 07:13:34 those give you the best approximations. 07:13:54 "the best" according to what? 07:14:39 closeness? 07:15:19 closeness given size of denominator, i think 07:17:06 not quite sure 07:18:19 found it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continued_fraction#Best_rational_approximations 07:20:07 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 07:24:55 the last paragraph of that section gives another "best" sense, too. 07:25:43 -!- Arrogant has joined. 07:35:31 i thought we had a discussion the other day of why things like c == c++ are undefined. 07:37:47 c == c++ is false 07:37:49 c > c++ 07:42:22 hrm 07:42:34 9978066541/3176117225 isn't one of the convergents of pi 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:11:19 -!- h|barbobot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:29:51 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 10:01:34 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving"). 10:58:41 -!- oklopol has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 10:59:22 -!- oklopol has joined. 11:11:11 -!- Pikhq has joined. 11:32:11 However, (C == C++) *does* return true. <<<<< undefinatorized. 11:32:18 i thin k. 11:33:04 oh 11:33:16 oerjan saved the day already :< 11:40:15 but, java compensates for it's non-operator-overloadingy boringness by defining evaluation order accurately 11:41:35 I don't think a well-defined evaluation order is all that interesting. 11:41:47 Quite the contrary: undefined operations add a little spice to the life. 11:44:26 i only find intrest determinicity 11:44:30 *in 15:17:25 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:30:39 * ais523 is in the wrong timezone to log on to IRC at a time they have access to a computer and come across a conversation 15:30:50 * a computer with an IRC client 15:45:42 -!- jix__ has joined. 15:46:50 I'm busy working on Underload's parent language 15:47:19 it's complicated, because I've changed the language I've written the interpreter in twice 15:47:33 and have both an old imprecise spec and a new unfinished one to try to work from 15:47:42 as well as the fact that I keep on coming up with new features it needs 15:54:12 overload? 16:04:01 Yep, that's what it's called 16:04:20 It extends it with features like variables and pointers 16:04:49 (Imagine Scheme with goto, and you'll have some idea of what I've got myself into) 16:05:35 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix. 16:19:24 What I've done so far can be seen at http://pastebin.ca/505403 for the next 24 hours or so 16:19:32 I've set it to expire because it's very much a work in progress. 16:20:03 The Perl program is the current interpreter-in-progress (but it needs reworking so it can handle programs with reasonable efficiency, with some sort of internal compression) 16:20:19 The C++ interpreter can do more at the moment, but is an older version of the interpreter 16:20:56 The text files are the spec; neither is complete, and the less complete one is a newer version (I was working through the alphabet, but haven't finished making the end of it rigorous yet) 16:22:54 (By the way, does anyone else create archives using more?) 16:53:12 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:00:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:16:53 -!- jix__ has joined. 17:25:07 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:31:31 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 17:33:15 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 17:41:08 -!- sebbu4 has joined. 17:42:06 -!- sebbu4 has quit (Excess Flood). 17:42:33 -!- sebbu4 has joined. 17:42:55 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 17:53:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 17:53:13 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 17:55:20 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:08:37 -!- sebbu4 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:12:12 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:31:41 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 18:40:59 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:52:43 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 19:01:35 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:20:52 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 19:40:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:59:53 -!- oerjan has quit ("Reboot"). 21:05:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:32:08 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 21:33:18 -!- jix__ has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 22:32:34 -!- cmeme has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:32:50 -!- cmeme has joined. 22:54:33 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 23:21:02 Oh wow! 23:21:04 http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2006/08/31/your-telephone-of-tomorrow/ 23:21:19 Modern mobile phones, predicted in ... 1956! 23:44:48 spooky. 23:45:27 Reading the article attached. . . 23:45:37 The "in 3-D" part hasn't happened yet. ;) 23:46:04 And cell phones aren't normally used for duplex audio/video. ;) 23:47:00 But it's a hell of a lot closer to the mark than most predictions. . . 23:47:09 Hell, it's actually a reasonable thought. 23:48:56 Additionally, the discuss power sources. . . 23:49:23 The "solar battery" takes advantage of the photovoltaic effect to charge a battery, which is used for power. . . 23:54:29 Wow. Jack Thompson is suing Microsoft. 2007-05-24: 00:08:53 -!- Bigcheese has joined. 06:38:02 -!- iswm has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:23:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:33:53 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server"). 08:34:03 -!- cmeme has joined. 09:14:10 -!- Bigcheesegs has joined. 09:14:26 -!- Bigcheese has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:19:03 -!- Bigcheese has joined. 09:26:23 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:31:40 -!- Bigcheesegs has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:09:24 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 13:46:49 -!- jix__ has joined. 16:01:16 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:29:25 -!- Bigcheese has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:22:25 -!- GregorR has joined. 19:08:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:52:36 -!- jix__ has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 21:02:50 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:21:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Success). 22:00:19 q45t 22:00:24 argh! 22:00:39 (laptop numlock) 22:00:45 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 22:00:50 o_O 22:01:13 heh 22:13:57 -!- ehird` has joined. 22:14:02 1/((log(x) + log(y) + 2)/-log(abs(x/y - n))) <-- this makes for an interesting graph 22:14:24 Is there a word for when you're designing an esolang but it turns out it's actually quite pleasant to program in and hey, this is actually a usable, real language? 22:14:28 if not there should be 22:19:42 guess not 22:28:05 "yay" 22:30:51 in the context of "yay i actually wrote a useful language, oh time to reimplement all my software in it" or just "yay" 22:34:10 ehird`: 'fuck' 22:35:13 lament: in the context of "fuck now i don't get esoteric hell" or just "fuck" 22:38:18 * SimonRC recalls the time he found a fractal whose escape-times looked like a collection of rubber gloves 22:38:41 BTW Fractint rocks. 22:38:48 rubber gloves are awesome 22:39:00 these were four-digited rubber gloves 22:39:18 I have more than 4 digits 22:39:27 I chucked some random functions and constants into the generic escape-time fractal generator. 22:39:39 factorial = dup 1 > [dup 1 - factorial *] [pop 1] if ;; <-- well, when i said "non-esoteric", I didn't mean "easy"... 22:39:52 in there were mor gloves of different colours suck round the main gloves 22:39:53 hmm, make that just 1 - 22:40:04 ehird`: language? 22:40:20 SimonRC: TheLanguageThatWasMeantToBeEsotericButIsNowActuallyQuiteUseful 22:40:28 stack-based, functional. 22:40:35 looks like joy 22:40:42 it does 22:40:49 not a downside :) 22:40:52 it is almost like Factor, but factor need more spaces 22:41:34 BTW, Factor FTW 22:41:41 factor is cool looking 22:41:47 haven't actually used it tho 22:41:52 It has a certain thing in common with Smalltalk... 22:42:07 specifically, the primitives are a lot deeper than you think. 22:42:39 In factor, you can freely muck around with the parser or lexer, or the object structure, or the inheritance mechanism 22:42:49 neat 22:43:09 heck, you can even change the multiple-dispatch mechanism without re-entering the methods. 22:43:16 hmmm... i don't think TheLa... will have that in its implementation - well, the self-hosted one i guess :) 22:43:31 I realised I was dispatching on the first argument not the second, by accident, and I cahnged it and it just worked 22:43:38 * ehird` is putting off implementing it because of the syntax 22:43:45 i guess the syntax isn't too bad though 22:43:48 doesn't look hard to me 22:44:04 "str", [lambda], X = Y ;; 22:44:06 and that's about it 22:45:15 you might want to go for Logo-style defining 22:45:34 Logo is ridiculously simple in that way 22:46:06 if you want to define a variable or function, you just do (effectively) define "name" meaning. 22:46:27 the name is passed as a string/symbol, and the meaning can be a list if you want it to be a function, ISTR 23:16:16 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 23:57:30 -!- ihope has joined. 2007-05-25: 00:15:26 hmm 00:15:31 i don't even have to implement scoping 00:15:47 no nested "operator functions" (non-[lambda]-pushed-to-stack functions that is) 00:15:51 just a hash table 00:16:44 I smell evil. 00:17:09 no - just a stack-based, functional language 00:17:13 so - evil 00:17:54 Egad... actually, yes, that is evil. 00:19:03 factorial = dup 1 > [dup 1 - factorial *] [pop 1] if ;; 00:19:03 :) 00:19:22 ehird`: no 00:19:29 SimonRC: no what 00:19:35 Wait, no monads? 00:19:36 Evil. 00:19:39 I think this wuold look better: 00:19:52 [dup 1 > [dup 1 - factorial *] [pop 1] if] "factorial" define 00:19:52 ihope: monads? pah! real functional programmers MANUALLY APPLY IO 00:20:06 actually, monads would be handy in Factor 00:20:09 OK, so they get their runtime system to do it for them, but... 00:20:21 they reduce the amount of crap that you need to shuffle around on the stack 00:20:21 SimonRC: well - [lambda] forms aren't implicitly called 00:20:23 Manually as in... like, how? 00:20:32 ehird`: yes, that's my point 00:20:37 2 [dup] --> 2 [dup], instead of 2 [dup] -> 2 2 00:20:42 "call" evaluates them 00:20:45 2 [dup] call --> 2 2 00:20:50 yes, i konw 00:21:01 my example depends on that 00:21:05 hrm 00:21:09 looks boring 00:21:10 OK.. but I like the ;; 00:21:22 it's ocamlish :P 00:21:25 doesn't Joy do that? 00:21:32 lament: joy uses . 00:21:32 Real functional programmers do impureness? 00:21:33 plus it's less ugly with multiple lines: 00:21:37 I push a block that is the definition of factorial, then a string that is the name of factorial, then I call "define" 00:21:41 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/64416 00:22:43 yeah 00:22:54 I find my way more elegant 00:23:35 because then "define" becomes equal to: get-current-scope's-hashtable set 00:23:54 scopes? this is a stack-based language ;) 00:24:03 the only scope i need is the global scope to store self-evaluating functions 00:24:11 so you can start defining your own definition operators, like ones that do overloading 00:24:44 they would just add a method the list of methods for a certain generic function 00:25:19 argh! bed-time. 00:25:43 hehe 00:26:00 i wonder if i'll be able to handle reverse-polishness to actually write some programs in the language 00:26:17 ... probably. i can do some forth. 00:44:46 -!- Aoshi has joined. 00:44:55 -!- Aoshi has left (?). 00:46:16 well that parser wasn't hard 00:46:23 just have to make it convert X = Y ;; to a hashtable {X => Y} 00:56:41 .... which is the hardest part 01:00:54 it works 01:00:56 yippee 01:30:05 -!- ehird` has quit. 02:54:08 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:18:16 -!- ihope has joined. 03:25:43 -!- SuperAussieEvil has joined. 03:25:58 Hi 03:26:49 Hello, above Australian self-serving-at-the-expense-of-others! 03:27:25 ? 03:28:06 "Super" = "above", "Aussie" = "Australian" and "Evil" = 03:28:09 "self-serving-at-the-expense-of-others", correct? 03:44:25 ...uh 03:50:54 heh 03:51:06 Synonyms do not flatter 03:52:07 I suppose that's true. 03:52:11 NOSES ARE A WASTE OF BANDWIDTH! 03:52:35 Is the horizontal line going through the nostrils called the band? 03:52:37 :-P 03:55:29 AAH! 03:55:37 * SuperAussieEvil head bleeds 03:55:41 ^ム^ 03:56:11 * bsmntbombdood doesn't understand unicode 03:56:57 It's a smilie. 03:58:08 ン is also a smilie. 03:58:13 It's just not a very good one. 03:59:11 そっ。 03:59:30 I really need to learn what そ is. 03:59:37 And っ too, for that matter. 03:59:39 I'm agreeing, that's all. 03:59:53 日本語で話せるか。 04:00:07 つ 04:00:15 XD 04:00:22 Hmm. That's like っ, only bigger. 04:00:42 Yeah. 04:00:47 And it's tsu. 04:00:49 "tu" versus "xtu". 04:01:03 Ah! そ is so. 04:01:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%81%A3 04:01:14 Yeah. 04:01:25 So, uh, so and a little tsu. 04:01:44 Would that be tso, by any chance? 04:02:03 Oh, that page details it. 04:02:24 In katakana, it's a smile! ツ 04:03:19 へムへ 04:03:34 So is that sort of a "so--"? 04:04:04 Just using "so" as an interjection. 04:05:00 Looks like glottal stop to me. 04:05:48 It's also used at the end of interjections. 04:17:35 NOSES ARE A WASTE OF BANDWIDTH! 04:38:19 -!- SuperAussieEvil has quit ("Leaving"). 05:03:09 what's an algorithm that takes more memory to compute than it takes to verify? 05:05:30 NP for memory 05:13:59 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:04:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:20:45 bsmntbombdood: An algorithm cannot take much more memory to compute than to verify, because any verification can be turned into a search algorithm 08:21:02 oerjan: yeah, figured that out 08:22:01 space complexity is strange that way. are you aware of the NSPACE <= squared SPACE result? 08:22:39 but you can make the codomain large enough to make brute force impractical 08:24:12 Savitch's theorem was the name 08:24:27 i'm looking for something with polynomial space verification, exponential space computation and exponential time brute forcing 08:26:14 and how does savitch's theorem not prove that impossible? 08:26:35 i don't know 08:26:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savitch%27s_theorem 08:27:08 squared space computation would be better than nothing 08:28:10 well, graph reachability (STCON in the article) contains essentially the whole difference 08:29:37 of course like with P=NP there is no known proof that there really is a square difference. 08:37:58 i'm going to bed 08:39:34 good night 08:54:26 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 09:37:48 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:52:36 そっ。 little girl defecating while committing fellatio? 11:01:27 -!- ptitz has joined. 11:02:58 -!- ptitz has left (?). 12:10:16 -!- venkatesh has joined. 12:26:24 oklopol: ?! 13:07:24 -!- jix__ has joined. 13:26:07 -!- venkatesh has left (?). 13:54:08 -!- jix__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:54:39 -!- jix__ has joined. 14:27:56 -!- helios24_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:45:31 -!- helios24 has joined. 15:20:06 i asked if it was an emoticon for that 15:21:01 Nope. 15:21:05 It's a *word*. 15:43:19 yeah, right. 15:44:07 hope you ppl are all here for esoteric _programming_ 16:35:32 でもエステリック語はたのしすぎる、よ。 16:35:49 (but esoteric spoken languages are too much fun.) 16:37:25 guess so :\ 16:37:27 japanese? 16:37:57 my friends are anime freaks, would be cool to own them in japanese 16:38:34 Ah, otaku. What fun it is to mess with them. . . 16:39:19 Sometimes, you don't even need to know more Japanese than what it takes to tell the difference between hiragana, katakana, and kanji to be effective. 16:40:20 mmm why? 16:40:34 i never remember even those 16:40:42 heard them a million times 16:40:46 one or two though 16:41:02 Because sometimes otaku will have a shirt saying, say, "オタク" instead of "おたく". 16:41:35 (katakana should be used for onomatopeia, foreign words, and occasionally for emphasis. Hiragana and kanji are normal for native words) 16:43:05 gah 16:51:53 Hmm? 16:56:39 i don't see the point in that but good for otaku i guess 16:56:57 i mean i don't know what you meant 16:57:30 slepation ------> 16:57:31 -!- ihope has joined. 17:06:19 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:31:55 The point being that that's basic knowledge that otaku lack. 17:39:13 japanese is an esoteric language now? 17:39:46 i thought it was one of the major lanugages of the world... 17:40:00 Is there any context to lament's question that I need to read the logs to see? 17:40:38 Yeah, I guess so. 17:43:27 And I better get learning some actual Japanese. 17:44:07 I can still say 猫はパンです just fine. 17:44:43 パン is katakana, which is a little weird. 17:45:40 And ノテンゴイデア, even though that's not actually Japanese. 17:50:32 You can say that you are bread? 17:51:11 And, BTW, パン is a loan word from Portuguese. 17:53:42 all those characters show up as squares :) 17:53:59 if they really were squares, it would certainly be a very esoteric language. 17:57:47 So it's no coincidence that the roumaji for that is "pan", which is the same as the Spanish word for "bread". 17:58:05 lament: you're not Japanese enough, then. 17:58:12 Isn't 猫 cat? 17:58:35 "Are you looking for Unicode character U+732B: cat?" 17:59:23 Oh, right. 17:59:25 Ooh, kJapaneseKun. 17:59:30 So, you're saying that your *cat* is bread. 17:59:51 Is it necessarily my cat? 18:00:09 That's "neko wa pan desu", isn't it? 18:00:11 . . . No. 18:00:22 No it isn't necessarily mine? 18:02:02 Not necessarily. 18:02:25 僕は日本語をわすれていると思う。 18:03:53 Ooh, more kanji. 18:06:44 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:08:50 <<*(&>*(<>&(*<>&<>)(*<> 18:08:55 *(<&{#($*<>({({&<>P *(& 18:08:58 thank you. 18:09:00 Convenient roumaji thingy tells me that's "boku ha nihongo o wasure te iru to omou." 18:09:14 Of course, that "ha" is probably actually "wa". 18:09:32 And of those, I only know what "wa" means. 18:09:55 "I think I'm forgetting my Japanese". 18:12:30 Hmm. 18:12:37 * ihope throws it at a nearby bd_ 18:30:08 * SimonRC has dinner 19:01:49 -!- GregorR has joined. 19:03:22 -!- GregorR has quit (Client Quit). 19:04:36 -!- GregorR has joined. 19:04:44 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:37:18 hm 19:58:05 Indeed, GregorR's being transient again. 19:58:12 Stop being so transient, GregorR! 19:58:47 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix. 20:02:01 -!- mtve has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:17:55 -!- GregorR has joined. 20:31:17 GregorR: why the transience? 20:47:17 From our birthday, until we die, // Is but the winking of an eye.... 21:03:20 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:22:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:23:30 Gregor, why the Plof errors on stdout instead of stderr? 21:41:06 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:46:14 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:18:19 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 22:44:33 -!- ehird` has joined. 23:10:56 * ehird` wonders why 99bob is doing 99->-98 23:15:34 => = dup dup > == or ;; 23:18:48 really? 23:18:51 how come? 23:19:20 if that was an equation over = 23:23:26 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/64693 23:23:28 that's the 99bob program 23:23:34 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/64694 23:23:49 this is what => etc are defined as 23:23:52 the rest is pretty obvious 23:23:54 it currently tries to pop from an empty stack in swap 23:23:57 L/ 23:23:58 *:/ 23:26:34 dup dup > == or ;; ==== dup 0 == or ;; ==== (lambda a,b : a or not b), or? 23:26:49 err 23:26:54 it works like this: 23:26:57 hmm 23:27:00 true false 23:27:03 false true (swapped) 23:27:04 mine was wrong 23:27:13 (false is...false, so run pop) true 23:27:17 or:::: 23:27:19 false true 23:27:22 true false (swapped) 23:27:27 (true is true, so swap) false true 23:27:29 (and pop) true 23:27:35 [] is a lambda 23:27:56 dup dup > == or ;; works like that? 23:27:57 if pops off IFFALSE, IFTRUE, and COND... you can guess the rest 23:28:10 oklopol: > pops twice and replaces it with true or false 23:28:14 == does the same 23:28:26 so you might have true false (>, not ==) or false true (==, not >) 23:28:38 =>, of course, is eq-or-gt 23:29:21 hmm 23:29:29 why does the swap coma along? 23:29:33 *come 23:30:02 well, visualize what or does with the stacks [true, false], [false, true], [false, false] and [true, true] in your head, using these stack signatures: 23:30:09 swap = a b -> b a 23:30:14 pop = a b -> a 23:30:30 if = c t f = result of calling t if c, else result of calling f 23:30:34 okay... now where is there a swap or a pop? 23:30:36 or if? 23:30:45 well - in the core implementation 23:30:49 its not hard to figure out what they do 23:30:51 i can't see it in "dup dup > == or ;;" 23:30:53 oh 23:30:59 or = swap [swap pop] [pop] if ;; 23:31:02 i pasted that 23:31:05 you mean the source? 23:31:07 yes 23:31:15 it isn't self-hosting ;;) 23:33:25 -!- calamari has joined. 23:34:09 ah i guessed if wrong 23:34:13 'if' 23:34:25 got it now 23:34:29 C T F if => is C true? if so, call T, otherwise call F 23:34:32 but you know that now :) 23:35:24 look how about i just put the impl online :) 23:35:28 it's ruby though and very ugly 23:35:49 and plenty of the examples i wrote when tired and are hopelessly wrong or just speculation like writing a daemon in it 23:36:11 => = dup dup > == or ;; i mean this one 23:36:14 *meant 23:36:17 right, what about it 23:36:26 is that true? 23:36:34 it's a definition 23:36:37 FUNC = CODE ;; 23:36:39 that defines => 23:37:14 ah i think it should be 23:37:15 => = dup dup > swap swap == or ;; 23:37:21 a b dup dup > == or ;; ===> a b b > == or ;; ===> a 0 == or ;; 23:37:26 as i said earlier 23:37:31 1 1 -> 1 1 1 1 -> 1 1 false -> 1 false 1 -> false 1 1 -> false true -> true 23:37:43 swap swap == nop 23:37:59 oops. 23:38:04 and 23:38:12 i'm trying to get a b c d -> a b d c -> a d b c :) 23:38:14 still, a a > equals false 23:38:26 oklopol: which is why i do ==, then or 23:38:36 so if == is true and > is false, true is returned 23:38:47 dup > equals false 23:38:50 i think always 23:39:05 hmm that dup is wrong yes 23:39:11 i'm meaning 1 2 -> 1 2 1 2 23:39:13 not 1 2 -> 1 2 2 23:39:17 * ehird` fixes 23:39:24 * 1 2 2 2 23:39:41 dup rot dup rot rot 23:39:53 where a b c rot = b c a 23:40:23 a b -> a b b -> b b a -> b b a a -> b a a b -> b a b a 23:40:23 hrm... i don't think a b c rot = b c a is selfhostedable...better ruby it 23:40:26 hmm 23:40:34 swap dup rot dup rot rot 23:40:46 selfhostedable? :) 23:41:53 programmable in the language itself, not its implementation :) 23:42:04 <= = swap dup rot dup rot rot < rot swap == or ;; 23:42:22 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 23:42:39 ugly :) 23:42:44 yeah, i guess you need a way to reach a depth n specified at runtime to make it tc 23:42:46 or not 23:43:00 anyway, what i mean about selfhostedable is - can i define rot using only pop/swap/etc 23:43:05 or is it a "core" thing 23:43:18 never heard, but i got it, yes 23:45:01 == bottles of beer on the wall, 23:45:01 == bottles of beer. 23:45:02 Take one down, pass it around, 23:45:02 ./core.rb:61:in `-': String can't be coerced into Fixnum (TypeError) 23:45:07 i think i need to debug 23:45:54 nah 23:46:02 i think that's a better 99bob 23:46:37 me too actually 23:46:40 it's catchier 23:46:48 yeah :P 23:46:55 the original is so verbose.... 23:47:13 "Equals equals bottles of beer on the wall, equals equals bottles of beer. Take one down, pass it around, core dot rb 61 in minus string can't be coerced into fixnum typeerror." 23:48:07 == essentially is equals though 23:48:26 but i guess you can have multiple variants 23:48:34 equals is assign :P 23:48:55 i mean 23:49:13 '==' can be said 'equals' and '=' 'assign' 23:49:33 while you can just as well say '==' is 'equals equals' and '=' 'equals' 23:49:40 meh 23:56:27 stack = ["swap", "dup", "rot", "dup", "rot", "rot", ">", "rot", "swap", "==", "==", "=="] 23:56:27 wtf. 23:56:33 that's all the function calls 23:56:36 why isn't it...blarh 2007-05-26: 00:18:05 okay, opinions 00:18:11 i have one of those 00:18:39 i need to have ' and `... where the other should be a lisp quote and the other the same in the other direction 00:18:54 like 'X = X and X` = X? 00:18:58 the other means whatever follows it is a funciton 00:19:03 ah 00:19:04 so 00:19:12 the other means whatever follows is a value 00:19:15 'X = X, X` = .... X is a function? 00:19:23 `X means a is a function 00:19:29 'X means X is a value 00:19:32 but not a, X 00:19:38 now my question is 00:19:42 which shuold mean which 00:19:47 that was a random choise 00:19:49 ' == value 00:19:51 *should 00:19:57 lisp heritage must be respected ;) 00:19:59 need some parens too! 00:20:06 (cadr '(1 2 3)) 00:20:08 hmm 00:20:41 hey - that's a good idea, an anti-golf contest 00:20:46 you almost never need to tell manually something is a function 00:20:50 biggest and slowest program you can make e.g. print hello world 00:21:19 heh - it'd certainly be easier to write an anti-golf-helper-bot than a golf-helper-bot that exists... 00:21:27 `4 4 would mean (lambda a:4)(4) if you know python, but that's just sick 00:21:39 ehird`: Please. . . 00:21:43 where `4 would be the infix funciton 00:21:44 That's almost too easy. 00:22:08 Step 1: fix up C2BF a bit. 00:22:12 Pikhq: i like that one on everything2 that makes a random string, checks if its md5 hash is == hworlds, and prints it if so 00:22:18 Step 2: Get the C++>C compiler working. 00:22:22 apparently it'll take a few hundred years to work 00:22:49 Step 3: Write a horribly bloated C++ "Hello, world" program using a few classes per character. 00:22:57 Step 4: Enjoy. 00:23:06 Pikhq: i think i hate you 00:23:16 ehird`: your way is better because ' (which is ' on my screen but shouldn't be) is faster to make, and the other one is never really needed 00:23:21 so i'll use it 00:23:22 What? Don't like C++>C>BF compilation? 00:23:30 step 3 too 00:23:41 >:D 00:23:46 i have parens, and that would be legal code in this language, but for a different reason 00:24:09 `'`'`''`'`''`'`````skskskskskskk -- is that valid code in your language 00:24:11 :-) http://www.ninjapirate.com/images/math-of-sex3.gif 00:24:16 because if it is some serious obfuscation could be done 00:24:18 Maybe shove a C->BF->C compilation stage. . . 00:24:40 ehird`: yes, it is 00:24:53 Pikhq: heh. while size < huge, compile BF to unoptimized C, compile it with C2BF, repeat 00:25:54 c2bf doesn't work on os x... 00:25:58 compilation fails and ld segfaults 00:26:03 making a busy beaver? 00:26:05 Blame Gregor. 00:26:54 * ehird` wonders what syntax would allow tons of perl code to be run unmodified but do completely different things 00:26:58 probably entirely sigils and ids 00:27:22 ehird`: Which language do you propose for this anti-golf? 00:27:31 $%<:,{^23}+(*&4)<^; <-- factorial! heh. 00:27:36 Pikhq: um - any i guess 00:27:38 (please say any. . .) 00:27:41 heh 00:27:44 Hmm. 00:27:51 Now, how many languages can I pull into this? 00:27:58 ...oh...my...go 00:28:30 anti-golf? 00:28:39 oklopol: biggest, slowest program 00:28:41 !golf 00:28:47 For "Hello, world". 00:28:50 thought so 00:28:51 well 00:28:52 for anything 00:29:26 slowest... that's kinda stupid cuz anyone can write one that takes a trillion years 00:29:33 good 00:29:36 extra points 00:29:43 unless you have to prove how long it'll take 00:29:46 Hrm. . . 99bottles/99.{c,perl,py,tcl,b,c++,sh,zsh,csh}, anyone? 00:30:11 slowest makes sense 00:30:28 write a short (under X characters), terminating program that takes the most steps. 00:30:49 not short 00:30:50 largest 00:30:54 The judging should be on style, not size. 00:31:14 write the biggest terminating program that takes the most steps, in the most ugly, hilarious, convuloted, obfuscated-but-not-like-the-ioccc, slowest way 00:31:14 . . . Realistically though, why bother judging? Just submit some weird-ass code. :p 00:31:56 * ehird` wonders why so many people like brainfuck 00:31:59 its classic, but ... 00:32:15 ehird`: largest is easy to write. 00:32:23 shortest is actually a challenge. 00:32:26 lament: who cares 00:32:31 ehird`: most people. 00:32:37 lament: "Most evil" is more of a challenge. 00:32:42 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/SuperPar now this is nice and evil 00:32:49 i might write my entries in that 00:33:34 Perhaps a "Hello, World" program which uses C to implement a PESOIX brainfuck interpreter which invokes a server which a different C program accesses? 00:34:00 Pikhq: s/C/Unlambda 00:34:20 s/Unlambda/x86 assembly/ 00:34:21 + http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Self-modifying_Brainfuck as the brainfuck dialect 00:34:44 + http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Please_Porige_Hot for....the protocol or something 00:36:52 00:29:08 < lament> write a short (under X characters), terminating program that takes the most steps. <--- That is the Busy Beaver problem, and if yu require that the program eventually halt, it isn't computable. 00:37:10 SimonRC: most == most in the competition 00:37:20 indeed 00:38:11 SimonRC: the competitors must know how it works, then it's computable 00:39:15 plus given any X > 100 the program will easily take so many steps it will not terminate this lifetime, in pretty much any language 00:39:30 100 was of course a totally random choise 00:39:51 oklopol: not in cobol 00:40:04 cobo-obol 00:40:08 cobol is not tc 00:40:13 so... who cares 00:40:18 it isn't? 00:40:21 (might be, dunno that well) 00:40:26 i mean the real cobol 00:40:33 it seems the first thing you do is allocate memory 00:40:42 and... that's pretty much the memory you'll have 00:40:44 real cobol, dude 00:40:49 Common oriented business language 00:40:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COBOL 00:41:05 woop woop woop :< 00:41:16 ADD ONE TO OKLOPOL GIVING OKLOPOL 00:41:56 oh... that's not the cobol i've seen 00:42:04 it's a real, serious language. 00:42:12 seriously did you not know about cobol??????? 00:42:23 i've read my fathers tutorials from like the sixties 00:42:25 or nineties 00:42:32 whatever, ancient anyweay 00:42:36 *-e 00:42:42 -!- ehird` has quit. 00:42:53 :< 00:43:05 now that was just rude 00:51:50 you're a helpful lot, i just write my question and come up with the answer before even sending it on the channel 00:54:41 SimonRC: that makes no sense 00:54:46 http://www.ninjapirate.com/images/math-of-sex3.gif 00:54:48 that 00:54:56 oklopol: hmm? 00:55:28 ihope: if you don't understand something i say, it's a bad joke 00:55:38 usually 00:55:39 * ihope nods 00:57:05 1 5 3 frombase 10 tobase 5 01:11:28 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 01:13:15 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 01:16:04 which is most reverse-y? '\', '/' or '%' 01:18:05 \ 01:18:42 ah, reverse division, because that char is so rarely used 01:19:05 i like to try to have a reason for every choise 01:19:41 It just seems reversey, because it's the reverse of everything Unixy except for escapes. . . 01:20:23 can you clarify, i'm not familiar with unix 01:20:31 (though ircing on linux) 01:21:19 Path seperators, for one, are / in Unix. 01:22:43 ah okily 01:23:44 a\b is map a to list b, and \a is reverse list a... i see the logic there 01:23:55 but i'll go with that 01:28:13 frombase={:LB->{[]B->0;LB->B*':L+.L}\LB;} 01:28:54 now if i could just get pattern matching ( -> ) be a normal function somehow... 01:29:24 i mean, not have it abide by it's own weird rules 01:29:41 because that's exactly what i try to discourage 01:29:51 ...in this lang, not generally 01:56:12 hehe, i have lisp-like quotes, but for a different reason, plof-like lambda specifiers (: and .), but for a different reason :P 01:56:23 i also had a third one in the same category, but i forgot it 01:56:41 this sounds like a monologue 01:56:52 i promised myself i'd stop doing them :\ 02:02:59 You've got too much creativity. . . 02:03:05 TO THE PLOF FOR YE! 02:05:30 i haven't yet gotten acquinted (<- fix my word) with plof 02:05:35 but prolly soon 02:05:59 is there a graphics library for plof? :P 02:06:04 No. 02:06:12 Are you willing to make one? 02:06:31 sure, but i can't, since that's not what i do 02:06:43 i mean, i'd love to make one 02:06:44 If you want to call an existing one, either make a better C calling interface, or use dlcall and friends. . . 02:06:46 but can't 02:07:34 does plof have c-import? 02:08:08 No, it's *current* external call interface is via the dlcall functions. 02:08:17 dlcall? 02:08:27 you're talking to a noob, remember that 02:09:01 dlcall is a function which lets you dynamicly load libraries and call functions in them. 02:09:09 Bit of a pain to use. 02:09:17 why exactly? 02:09:36 dlcall("okofok.dll","get_number_4") 02:09:39 ? 02:09:42 Pull up the man page; you'll see whay fairly soon. 02:09:54 it is not like that? 02:10:03 It's *close*, but more annoying. 02:10:10 well, why not make it like that? 02:10:31 Because the dlcall functions are pretty much thin wrappers around the C version. . . 02:10:42 Because that would involve a lookup every time you dlcall'd a function. 02:10:52 Which, in a language is inefficient as Plof, is a nonissue :P 02:10:53 That too. 02:11:05 this is why you could have new dlcaller("okofok.dll") 02:11:13 if i understood you correctly 02:11:15 oklopol: That's a lot closer. 02:11:17 which i never seem to do 02:11:41 dlopen("file.so"); 02:12:08 var a=new dlcaller("okofok.dll");a.call("get_number_4"); 02:12:10 Err. 02:12:13 why not like htat? 02:12:15 htht 02:12:39 Hmm. Actually, that'd be a fairly easy object to make. . . 02:12:43 yes 02:12:47 so why not make it? 02:13:11 Because I'd rather make a better interface. 02:14:06 it could also have things like a.store_function_as("get_number_2","1"); and then a.call_quick("2") in case that would provide any speedup 02:14:18 okay 02:14:32 *"1" or course 02:16:27 assuming ^ is xor, what would that mean for two sets? 02:16:51 | is union, & is intersection 02:17:13 heh 02:17:19 that was trivial 02:17:20 sorry 02:17:48 wow 02:18:56 + makes sence for lists, while - doesn't, whereas both make sence for sets, but | can be used for their addition 02:19:22 so... everyone's happy and no distinction need be made between sets and lists 02:38:30 So - only sort of makes sense? 02:41:48 whaddya mean? 02:42:22 agr + r = agrr, agr | r = agr 02:42:34 agr - r = ag 02:42:49 so lists can be used as sets 02:42:52 in this case 03:57:51 it turns out you can actually reset every operator in oklotalk without any harm done... since every operator is essentially just the empty lambda {} 03:58:19 they are just overloaded by everyone 03:58:25 because they are slaves 03:58:37 filthy, filthy slaves 03:58:47 sun is rising... better get some sleep 03:58:55 nah 04:02:33 You do sound a little tired. 04:02:48 /time to the rescue! 04:04:05 Egad. You're seven hours ahead of me, meaning... well, hmm. 04:05:21 it's sex o'clock 04:05:52 SEE HOW TIRED YOU ARE? HUH? 04:07:09 i have some ed (energy drink none know) in the fridge 04:07:32 but it might be nice to get _some_ sleep 04:07:58 then again, i will not wake up before 15:00 if i go to sleep now 04:08:10 and if i wait till tonight, i'll sleep the whole sunday 04:08:53 i'll see what happens 04:10:00 Why do you need to not sleep now? 04:10:27 i'm writing a spec for oklotalk... finally decided to begin with it 04:11:06 it's much less fun when i'm not tired 04:11:23 I see. 04:11:40 So it's much more fun when you're tired. 04:12:11 well deduced. 04:12:36 Thank you. 04:14:48 well, if i'm sleepy tired, it does not work; only 'hehe poo' sleepy is good for programming 04:14:57 hehe poo xD 04:15:45 it's fun because it's poisonous 04:18:36 Contagious, you mean? 04:18:48 why would i mean that? 04:19:03 i was quoting zoidberg 04:19:52 Oh. 04:20:01 What's that? 04:20:14 have you watched futurama? 04:20:35 Nope. 04:20:37 i've seen it about three times 04:20:45 anyway 04:20:50 the doctor of the ship 04:20:53 great characer 04:20:58 *character 04:21:16 a giant crab 04:21:20 or something 04:23:34 I see. 04:24:42 why contagious? 04:24:53 ah 04:24:58 took me a while :) 04:45:27 okay, now sleep ---> 05:27:06 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:34:04 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:04:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:57:14 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 12:25:58 i had a lucid dream i did some serious flooding on this channel 12:26:30 but i had to stop when i suddenly started spinning around in the air 14:03:32 -!- ihope has joined. 14:13:30 -!- jix__ has joined. 14:16:01 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix. 16:01:10 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:17:05 I have a dream. . . A dream of a day where BFM has a test suite, so that I can actually figure out which language-specific macros are failing. . . 16:58:03 -!- ihope_ has joined. 17:13:14 * Pikhq now sees that he's got a bug which involves the itoa call. . . 17:14:52 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:20:44 What's odd is that there *shouldn't* be anything wrong with that call. 17:22:26 you know you _could_ cheat and include a debug print command 17:23:32 oerjan: Or I could do lang {printf("%i", random_cell);} 17:24:05 Only *useful* if the target language is C (which it is ATM). . . 17:24:44 * Pikhq is just getting frustrated that the C backend works, but the C-specific macros don't 17:25:37 have you looked at the C output? 17:26:27 I have. 17:26:34 It *looks* right. 17:27:08 So far, I've been able to figure out that the issue is not in optimize.tcl 17:29:25 Nor is the issue in c/copy.bfm or c/move.bfm 17:32:12 well, can you find the first point at which a variable does not have the expected contents? 17:32:32 Found the issue. 17:32:37 c/subvar.bfm is broken. 17:32:45 ok 17:33:44 Now just to figure out *how* it's broken. 17:34:04 Ah. Storing in y, not x. 17:36:39 Seems that I'm also triggering a bug any time that more than two digits are needed from itoa.bfm -_-' 17:36:59 Specifically, an infinite loop. 17:48:41 *That* much is broken in my optimization pass. 17:54:50 Fixed. 18:02:05 Now, if I can just figure out how divvar.bfm and divmod.bfm are borken. . . 18:02:26 Got it. 18:06:21 . . . Except that it fails when it goes beyond 128. 18:06:33 p+=/.(; 18:06:39 Unless you think that looks like 128 to you. 18:06:59 a remarkable likeness. 18:08:12 * Pikhq blames div(); from stdlib 18:08:41 i note that those characters are just _below_ "0". maybe it is subtracting rather than adding. 18:09:26 indeed they are 48-1, 48-2, 48-8 18:10:16 are you using signed chars? 18:10:23 I'm using just "char". 18:10:37 Which can be either signed or unsigned. . . 18:10:38 *groan* 18:10:49 It's probably doing a sign change there. 18:12:08 Any clue what you have to pass to gcc to tell it to treat chars as unsigned? 18:12:19 (just so I can see if that's what's causing it) 18:12:19 _all_ chars? no. 18:12:39 but you can of course replace char by unsigned char 18:12:43 -funsigned-char 18:13:04 That fixes it. 18:14:45 Hmm. . . Now, what other macros shall I rewrite? 18:15:13 for what purpose? 18:15:52 I'm making some C-specific macros (in stdlib/c/), to take advantage of my new language-specific macros feature; this should allow for faster output code. 18:16:21 * Pikhq should do the same for the interpreter; that's the slowest backend of them all 18:29:51 Well, the C backend is probably the most efficient one. . . 18:32:36 Basm takes 0.18 seconds to compile LostKng.b with it. 18:34:02 * SimonRC finds some fake double-RAS-syndrome: "Dynamic DNS Server" 18:34:16 0.17s without newlines. 18:34:18 Pikhq: you ported LK from BFBASIC to BASM?! 18:34:35 SimonRC: Basm is my Brainfuck compiler. 18:34:41 And I should rename it. 18:34:42 ah, ok 18:35:00 Pikhq: Is the source online anywhere? 18:35:26 SimonRC: Yes. . . 18:35:33 http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/basm.tar.bz2 18:35:35 where? 18:35:37 Requires bfm: 18:35:37 ok 18:35:45 http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bfm.tar.bz2 18:35:56 (my new BFM improvements will be up as soon as I'm done) 18:36:22 *That* tarball is up to date, except for the language-specific macros feature (not *needed* for basm; just makes it run faster) 18:37:33 So, what does it actally do? BF -> C? 18:38:15 Basm does, yes. 18:38:54 BFM does BFFM->(Brainfuck,C,interpret) 18:39:11 . . . And apparently, GCC is a friggin' memory hog when it tries to compile LostKng.c 18:39:24 # I'm going to rise and dawn // with no clothes on // and colours on my skin. // Colours of life and love // from heaven above // absolve me of my sin. # 18:39:40 Pikhq: could be the interference graphs that do it. 18:39:54 -- "Ode to Crayola" by Lemon Demon 18:40:09 SimonRC: Um, why would that matter? -O0. . . 18:40:17 ah, ok 18:44:08 what is the difference between the "-1" files and the "0" files 18:47:46 basm.-1.b and basm.0.b were compiled with different assumptions for what EOF iis. 18:47:56 ah, of course 18:48:12 basm.0.b assumes EOF=0 or no change, and the code it outputs provide for that. 18:48:27 yeah 18:48:45 I bet the issue with my memory-hogging compiler is just that 4.1 is a bit more memory-using. 18:49:39 Mmkay, gcc-3.4.6 is using a lot of memory as well, but it's not thrashing. 18:49:41 If it becomes inconvinient, you could try asking the devs. 18:49:50 . . . And it finished in 30 seconds. 18:49:57 gcc should support generated code as well as human-written stuff 18:50:05 SimonRC: I spent 5 minutes trying to get gcc-4.1.2 to stop. 18:50:10 !! 18:50:22 It was thrashing that damned much. 18:50:29 (and I've got 1G of RAM) 18:50:33 Pikhq: you could try making major lops into their own subroutines. 18:50:53 In basm? 18:50:57 Jeeze. . . 18:51:07 Sorry, but I'd rather not do that *in Brainfuck*. 18:51:27 Well, if your compiler wasn't written in BF, admittedly it would be sensible. 18:51:36 It would be. 18:51:47 Of course, I think the issue lies more in GCC. 18:51:55 * SimonRC contemplates writing one in Haskell. 18:52:07 Honestly. . . 700MB RAM for 2MB of code?!? 18:52:15 heh 18:52:55 Maybe it's trying to analyse the array usage to see if it can do some of it in registers. 18:53:16 . . . But *why* do that for -O0?!? 18:53:31 seriously, ask the devs if they know what is making it do that, and if you can turn it off 18:54:03 I think using 700MB of RAM for a 2MB file at -O0 counts as a bug. 18:54:33 depends what -O0 actually does. 18:54:51 or rather, how optimisations get turned off 18:55:19 if (e.g.) it is building data-flow graphs then throwing them away again, -O0 won't help memry usage much 18:56:26 Um ... it depends on what that 2MB of code is doing. 18:56:40 compiled BF 18:56:44 GregorR: It's a somewhat naive translation of LostKng.b into C 18:56:57 Whole lot of pointer arithmetic. 18:56:58 Why not just use EgoBFC? ;) 18:57:10 Because then I wouldn't be testing my *own* compiler. 18:57:30 's called a joke :P 19:08:51 oerjan: what's a "speech" in norwegian? or if anyone knows swedish, in that. 19:09:16 tale 19:09:45 hmm... you don't happen to know what it is in swedish? :P 19:09:45 hmm 19:09:47 actually 19:09:51 it's that prolly 19:11:31 actually i think swedish is "tal" 19:12:19 www.tal.se 19:12:38 well, i don't think it makes that much difference... i'm not that good 19:13:01 but i'll put tal 19:13:22 the swedish is neuter, the norwegian is masculine 19:15:31 hmm 19:15:45 en = which? 19:16:05 en / ett, but masculine, neuter and feminine 19:16:10 how come? 19:16:46 i don't think swedish has masculine/feminine distinction 19:17:15 norwegian: en (m), ei (f), et (n) 19:17:29 i meant norwegian 19:17:37 and i though you have just two articles 19:17:41 but i was wrong it seems 19:18:50 no but the feminine is relatively rare in bokml 19:20:09 in the most conservative forms they use en for that too 19:21:33 (but still with -a definite ending unless it is even more conservative) 20:03:38 -!- iswm has quit ("Leaving"). 20:08:45 -!- mtve has joined. 20:38:31 * SimonRC wonders WTF ever one of his windows processes has a PID that is a multiple of 4 20:38:39 XP, in case you were wondering 20:40:24 Security, of course. 20:40:44 :-S 20:40:57 If one of the PIDs weren't a multiple of 4, that process could obviously hack into your system and destroy everything. 20:41:52 See, there's always a process with a PID of 4, maybe, so PID arithmetic would allow such a process to attain a PID of 1, which is omnipotent. 20:42:06 Actually, 2 and 3 are omnipotent as well. But 4 isn't, which is why they chose that. 20:42:17 sigh 20:42:28 Sigh? 20:42:38 i note that some of the processes clearly have specially assigned numbers 20:42:50 e.g. IEXPLORE = 2500 20:46:34 not here it doesn't 20:46:43 probably just random 20:47:16 i just cannot believe that. 20:48:26 ok 20:48:37 kill it and re-start, to see if it gets the same PID 20:48:41 re-try a few times 20:50:31 * Pikhq should learn asm. . . 20:50:48 whoops, you were right, now it is 2880 20:51:43 and 2576 20:51:47 hah 20:52:10 # Go and fake your death ok? // 'Cause I am not here I am not here. # 21:03:41 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:05:34 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:05:57 . . . Meh. 21:06:20 [[j$++=]~{f2%}@a2@a1@a0!!~]&a,. 21:23:21 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:27:24 oklopol: a lucid dream and the best you can do is irc? 21:28:02 i did other stuff too 21:28:07 it lasted like 2 hours 21:28:33 "ok, let me first check on the irc channels..." 21:29:17 basically i flew around, had sex, killed people and woke up for a few minutes at random, but at some point i wasn't really sure whether i was asleep or not, so i thought i'd flood a bit to have proof later 21:30:07 i _think_ it might have been an idea to do the proof thing before you started killing people :D 21:30:30 flying was the only unrealistic thing i could do 21:30:42 i knew that because i was in a place i' 21:30:47 ve never seen 21:30:51 in the middle of the night 21:31:07 whereas i could easily have woken up in the night and been in my room 21:32:27 once i had this lucid dream that just kept on going for hours, or so it seemed, every time i woke up, something came and killed me, and i couldn't wake up for real 21:33:16 and this other time i sat around a table while dinosaur played card there... and tried to wake up but couldn'y 21:33:24 i could write a book about my dreams 21:34:24 i used to have dreams about trying to wake up but not so much nowadays 21:35:01 the other night i had a dream with at least 5 levels of recursion 21:35:47 heh, the best one was so long that when i woke up i took a one hour long walk just to be sure i was awake :) 21:35:49 var dream = :{dream();} 21:35:50 ? 21:36:06 falling asleep inside the dream and having another dream 21:36:10 yeah 21:45:40 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined. 21:54:26 -!- Pikhq has quit ("Leaving."). 21:57:30 -!- Pikhq has joined. 22:11:06 bastard 22:11:10 you have lucid dreams 22:11:30 Called "life". 22:11:35 no 22:11:47 with lucid dreaming you can fly 22:11:51 Pikhq: you can fly in life? 22:12:14 bsmntbombdood: Sure, thanks to the Brothers Wright. 22:12:23 no, not like that 22:12:30 fly without a machine 22:13:05 i've flown in dreams, not lucid ones though 22:13:23 I can kinda do it, but not at will, and I lack the skill to go on for mare than about 10 perceived second without waking up. 22:13:34 maybe planning would help 22:13:42 thinking about it all the time 22:13:59 my instincts tell me that Cosmic Ordering would be very effective 22:14:02 i've had one lucid dream, but i got woken up about 2 seconds into it 22:14:08 SimonRC: i usually wake up as well, once i realize it's a dream 22:14:27 it's rare that it lasts long 22:14:43 maybe maybe maybe you must plan what you are going to do to stop yourself getting over-excited and waking up# 22:15:15 or do like me and drink so much caffeine you can't fall asleep and still try to 22:15:26 gives nice lucids 22:15:37 (BTW, Cosmic Ordering is named after the type of ordering that ne does in, say, a restaurant, rather than being orderly.) 22:15:42 i've given up caffeine 22:15:51 oklopol: nah, I just get weird dreams then 22:16:23 guess it varies... there are many ways ppl say you get lucid dreams for sure 22:16:31 but they all require a change in lifestyle 22:16:41 well, sleeping routines 22:16:48 and daily routines something 22:16:53 *sometimes 22:21:11 oh 22:21:23 I was following the advice on Everything2 22:21:35 or rather, that of which that I could recall 22:22:11 And, as in many ares of my life, the bits that I can recall are really just the ones I believed already. 22:22:39 Godsdamnit that feeling of things slipping away from me when I disagree with them is so annoying. 22:23:13 I read an opinion contrary to mind, and within a few hours, I can remember barely any of it. 22:23:38 If I read an opinion I agree with, I can recall it much better. 22:23:45 yeah 22:23:50 Y'know... 22:24:11 Maybe this happens to almost everyone in the world, but most of them don't notice it... 22:24:18 That would explain a lot of things. 22:24:21 :-) 22:24:28 (Ha, ha, only serious.) 22:25:44 Of course, I already believed that. 22:26:26 Or rather, i was assuming people usually don't notice things they don't believe in in the first place. 22:28:31 Does not apply to the really obvious stuff, of course, but Adams and PTerry were only exaggerating a bit. 22:31:16 but then on another level i also believe some things don't physically happen to people who don't believe them. 22:37:14 * oerjan starts wondering if anyone even saw his last comment :D 22:37:38 i see all 22:52:00 hm 22:52:14 that sounds iffy 22:52:17 give example 22:55:17 http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/Pickover/pc/cnn_shuttle.jpg 22:57:51 -!- calamari has joined. 22:58:10 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 23:11:10 -!- ehird` has joined. 23:38:46 Pikhq: lol 23:40:10 lofl 23:40:49 18 times the speed of light!!! 23:41:35 (speed of light in a vacuum)^(speed of light in a vacuum) 23:41:35 = big 23:41:45 it's true! 23:42:41 not really 23:42:47 well 23:42:50 not big 23:42:54 but big if you're moving at that speed! 23:42:59 (1 lightyear/year)^(1 lightyear/year) 23:43:14 :-S http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sfo/278240458.html 23:43:45 if that ^ is supposed to be exponentiation, then that is a dimension error 23:43:47 But honestly, "Atlas"?! 23:44:13 * SimonRC uses a gensym. 23:44:14 ;-) 23:44:53 yeah, exponenents should be unitless 23:45:16 and usually integral, for the units' sake 23:45:22 nothing beats making a trivia bot and watching it own 23:45:54 (^) :: (Num a, Integral b) => a -> b -> a 23:45:58 nothing beats making a stupid idiotic chatting bot and watching it run on itself 23:46:21 where? 23:46:22 nah 23:46:23 and hoping it enters an infinite loop soon 23:46:29 did you put it on #debain-flame 23:46:32 haha 23:46:35 markov chains are the best non preprogrammed bots i've seen 23:46:35 Wet, linty, and stupid is no way to start your day. 23:46:36 no, xterm 23:46:39 and they are not good 23:46:48 (maybe i'll cheat - "repeat this phrase" = "repeat this phrase") 23:46:56 #debian-flame doesn't exist, but it fits their naming scheme and conversational topics 23:46:56 SimonRC: quakenet and a finnish channel 23:46:56 and often requests to say "repeat this phrase" 23:47:24 except i don't think that was for me 23:48:08 and where are the "topless picture posting hotties"? 23:48:44 "Why dont the IRC:s comply with Macintosh or is this problem occurring with my comp. only?" 23:52:06 What's this Macintosh compliance all about? 23:52:16 bsmntbombdood: The units on your c^c is, of course, 1 (lightyear/year)^(lightyear/year). . . Which is, of course, a fairly large unit. 23:53:50 large compared to what? 23:54:25 hint: you need something of the same unit to compare with 23:56:49 c^c is large? 23:56:55 What if c is actually very, very small? 23:57:15 every relativistic physicist knows that c = 1 :) 2007-05-27: 00:11:00 oerjan: Only if you define your measurements in terms of light's motion in a certain unit of time over that unit of time. 00:11:28 If you use the metric system, then you get a wildly different integer. ;) 00:11:40 you use plancks constant! 00:14:27 um, planck's constant is independent of c 00:15:24 shut up you! i know a big word 00:16:03 the reason to use c = 1 is that it makes all the relativistic formulas simpler 00:16:32 speed as fractions of c makes sense 00:17:45 but only when it makes sense 00:20:22 speed limit: .0000000671 00:26:22 The reason not to use c = 1 is that it makes all humanly obtainable speeds simpler. ;) 00:26:52 bah, humans 00:35:18 What, speeds near c aren't humanly obtainable? 00:35:29 You just need energy loans, that's all. 00:35:54 Hawking radiation or something. 00:42:15 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 00:45:47 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:46:16 Ask the First Interstellar Bank 00:46:33 * SimonRC has a Firefox bug. 00:46:40 anyone want to see? 00:47:08 ICBA to report it, as they want a Bugzilla account 00:49:17 bugzilla accounts will be the death of open source 00:50:16 Follow the instructions very carefully to see if *your* browser has this semi-bug http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/~sc/tmp/test.html 00:53:18 omg it has! 00:53:28 DO I HAVE VIRUS? 00:53:36 heh 00:54:45 one of the advantages to using IE is that i can simply assume i have all bugs in existence, and not worry about checking 00:55:01 Although the chapter and verse I quoted doesn't actually say that is the wrong behaviour, it certainly implies it is a little too simple for a web-browser. 00:55:17 * SimonRC thinks of an idea... 00:56:09 I could use this to write a webpage, that when you recursively follow all links in one user-agent, you get an exponential blopwup, but in another user-agent you don't. 00:56:53 It would link back to itself lots of times with random variations on the link-back URL that *shouldn't* change its meaning. 00:57:03 dynamically-generated, of course 00:57:08 * bsmntbombdood wants a gyrotheodolite and an optical distance meter 00:59:41 -!- ehird` has quit. 01:03:43 moved it to: http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/~sc/fxbug/test.html 01:04:18 interestingly, I only found *that* because of a Hoogle bug. :-S 01:05:03 Is there a name for the phenomenon of a bug exposing another bug? 01:07:15 treason 01:09:28 :-S ?! 01:12:03 well.. you'd expect them to respect each other more than that 01:12:46 there is no honor among bugs 01:14:07 so it seems 01:14:41 * oklopol is the creator of all that is good and cappuccino 01:14:45 mhohoho 01:15:12 ah, i get it now 01:15:52 whom? 01:16:51 oklopol: pff. Nothing is both good and cappuccino. 01:17:31 you don't like cappuccino 8| 01:17:35 ? 01:17:42 ihope is a freak! 01:18:05 if you don't like it, you haven't tasted my special lidl-microwave bake! 01:18:16 Hmm... maybe I should have said "Isn't 'good and cappuccino' redundant?" 01:18:27 thaz better 01:19:10 so you only parse syntactically what we say and create clever answers by swapping words? 01:19:25 doesn't everyone? 01:19:43 well, i guess some mix in some semantics 01:19:53 women, mostly 01:19:59 and gay people 01:20:06 coffeez -----------> 01:20:08 and bugs 01:20:39 mmm, cappucino 01:22:07 hot damn, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hollow_dollar.jpg 01:23:35 * bsmntbombdood wants 01:33:14 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:50:46 bsmntbombdood: that wouldn't be accepted by a machine, of course 01:51:04 ...why would i put it in a machine? 01:52:28 i'd make one if i had a mill 01:52:31 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 01:52:32 "ZOMG! I accidentally put the secret microfilm in a vending machine" 01:52:44 except you couldn't 02:19:17 i'd make a lot of things if i had a mill 02:29:50 * SimonRC sings _The Ultimate Showdown Of Ultimate Destiny_ in the style of Tom Lehrer. 02:29:54 great fun!!!!! 02:30:02 bsmntbombdood: flour? 02:30:13 huh? 02:31:06 erm, as in "flour mill"? 02:31:16 a metal mill 02:31:33 I was kidding 03:12:21 * SimonRC contemplates pointer-free datastructures. 03:13:13 They're not actually any worse than linearly-typed data, apart from the copying time, and theproblem of having enough space to expand the datastructure. 03:13:16 hmm.... 03:17:40 pointer-free trees might not be to bad... 03:18:40 tree = [A=label][B=left subtree][C=right subtree][length of ABC] 03:19:59 an empty tree would have a special label field. 03:20:34 you might want a way to skip to the middle too... 03:20:42 i.e. look at the right subtree 03:21:18 this would be optimised for lookup and linear traversal of course, but in the latter case it would do *fantastic* things to the cache. 03:23:20 c'mon guys, *respond* 03:23:36 this is most definitely an esoteric programming topic. 03:25:15 i don't like it 03:25:38 "pointer free linked list" = array? 03:25:56 yes 03:26:30 It will go fater than anything else possibly can, as long as you traverse it correctly. 03:26:43 it makes more sense to have length at the begining for a tree 03:26:59 or rather, as long as your algorithm requireds the right sort of traversal. 03:27:22 bsmntbombdood: quite possibly, but you'd have to backpatch it. 03:27:43 I suppose you will want pointers in your algorithms 03:28:06 maybe array indices are enough... 03:28:54 you can't put anything in the right subtree untill you find how long the left one is 03:31:37 ...and so on in the right subtree 03:33:43 sometimes that is how you generate the data 03:34:06 this type of things isn't universally applicable, but it might be perfect sometimes 03:34:23 consider for example this usenet post: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.development/msg/62df77aa41921dda 03:34:59 the major datastructures in his program have almost no pointers at all (inteheir interfacse at least) 03:35:16 he claims this makes things easier to debug, and I am sure it does 04:06:04 -!- wooby has joined. 04:33:58 -!- wooby_ has joined. 04:34:28 -!- wooby has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:36:23 -!- wooby_ has quit (Client Quit). 04:44:31 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 05:35:15 summer nights ++ 05:37:29 -!- Pikhq has joined. 05:39:31 * Pikhq may very well have came up with a replacement name for BFM and BASM. . . 05:39:55 PEBBLE: Practical Esoteric Brainfuck-Based Language, Eh? 05:39:58 (for BFM) 05:40:17 PFUCK: Pebble's Fucked Up Compiler, Kay? 05:40:23 (for basm) 05:45:59 pebble? 05:46:41 It's better than conflicting with a different esolang. 06:31:16 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:37:50 -!- sebbu has joined. 13:11:21 -!- jix__ has joined. 13:19:07 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix. 13:37:14 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 13:56:16 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:32:53 -!- ehird` has joined. 14:50:41 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 15:45:25 -!- jix has joined. 17:04:26 -!- Joe38 has joined. 17:05:08 hi all together 17:06:26 -!- Joe38 has quit (Client Quit). 17:21:58 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 17:29:15 # Get out there and dance like an idiot # 19:00:39 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:52:38 * bsmntbombdood is starting "the uberman's sleep schedule": http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/4/15/103358/720 19:53:52 bsmntbombdood.employmentStatus() 19:54:03 == false 19:54:19 on summer break from school 19:56:21 ok 19:56:59 if it works, it looks like a brilliant but somewhat brittle hack 20:01:00 so much stuff makes sense if one considers the human body to be a craply-designed system 20:12:07 -!- jix has joined. 20:12:13 maybe it's the computers that are craply-designed 20:12:52 pikhq.employmentStatus() == false;but pikhq.desiredEmploymentStatus() == true 20:13:43 * Pikhq should read kuro5hin more. . . Ben a few months. 20:14:14 pikhq.setEmploymentStatus(pikhq.desiredEmploymentStatus()) 20:14:55 # 9 out of 10 sociopaths agree // you've gotta see Hyakugojyuuichi # 20:15:14 ehird`: Function "setEmploymentStatus" in pikhq (inherited from class person) can only be accessed by someone of class employer. 20:15:46 SimonRC: Why should I see 151, exactly? 20:15:51 employer.new().classEval { pikhq.setEmploymentStatus(pikhq.desiredEmploymentStatus()); } 20:15:56 And what the hell is it, anyways? 20:16:45 ehird`: employer can only be constructed via another member of class employer, or by forcesOfTheFreeMarket(). 20:18:05 forcesOfTheFreeMarket().classEval { employer.new().classEval { pikhq.setEmploymentStatus(pikhq.desiredEmploymentStatus()); } } 20:18:18 Pikhq: a line from a song 20:18:26 I could explain if you really want 20:18:36 Pikhq: you don't want 20:18:40 I really, really want to know what the hell it is. 20:18:49 ehird`: Curiosity killed the cat. 20:19:18 ehird`: forcesOfTheFreeMarket() may only be called by the system administrator, which you are not. 20:19:19 Pikhq: J(F)GI 20:19:33 Pikhq: Hyakugojyuuichi = one of the first animutations (which is a warped style of animation) 20:19:38 ehird`: Oh. 20:19:48 that line = a line from Hyakugojyuuichi 2003, which is a vanity song 2 years later by... the same maker. 20:19:51 QED. 20:19:55 The line is from a song about it, which in turn has it's own animutation :-S 20:20:02 Pikhq: sudo forcesOfTheFreeMarket().classEval { employer.new().classEval { pikhq.setEmploymentStatus(pikhq.desiredEmploymentStatus()); } } 20:20:14 ehird`: Password: 20:20:21 password 20:20:28 Nope. 20:20:31 Password: 20:20:35 ^C 20:20:54 ^C^C^C 20:20:54 You will be reported to God@universe. 20:20:55 $ 20:21:11 fastpwdcrack root > pwd 20:21:15 SimonRC: Blegh. Me no like animutation 20:21:22 ehird`: Hello, World! 20:21:23 $ 20:21:33 cat pwd 20:21:36 $ 20:21:44 hrm. 20:22:08 Message from God@universe (1:20 MST, May 27, 2007): 20:22:13 sudo logrm sudo-logs Don't make me smite you. 20:22:15 ^D 20:22:30 sudo kill God@universe Message from God@universe (1:21 MST, May 27, 2007): 20:22:46 suspense 20:22:47 Alright. That's enough. 20:22:49 ^D 20:22:54 logout 20:22:57 Message from universe: 20:23:00 Pikhq: me neither, but the songs by the artist are good 20:23:02 You have been smote. 20:23:02 ^Clogout^D^D^D^D^D^Dlogout^Clogout 20:23:06 SimonRC: Agreed. 20:23:13 * ehird` likes animutation. 20:23:29 * Pikhq thinks it's a stupid form of animation 20:23:37 * ehird` thinks it's hilarious 20:23:50 Of course, Lemon Demon has proven that he can do better stuff, so he is redeemed in my book. 20:24:30 trapezoid/"deporitaz" is painful to the ears. 20:24:34 (pre-lemondemon lemondemon) 20:24:56 his non-wordy stuff can be good 20:25:16 word. y. 20:25:17 _Zero Gravity_ is good 20:25:25 ehird`: ?? 20:25:49 SimonRC: ? 20:26:25 " word. y." <--- ??? 20:26:43 his non-wordy stuff can be good 20:26:54 erm, yeah 20:27:17 ITYM "werd", which is the more usual spelling of the expression of sgreement. 20:27:47 sigh 20:46:02 werd up, yo 20:58:14 -!- ehird` has quit. 21:04:26 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:11:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:12:01 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:23:54 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 21:49:53 given log(a), calculate log(a+1) without storing exp(log(a)) 21:50:30 never! 21:51:01 hm... 21:51:17 should be possible to give a series 21:54:52 aah 21:55:12 what? 21:55:35 log(2) + log(a)/2 + log(a)**2/8 + log(a)**4/192 + ... 21:56:33 -!- StevenBao has joined. 21:56:43 -!- StevenBao has left (?). 21:57:53 not sure what the general form of the denomiators is 21:58:42 you should be able to find them with differentiation 21:59:18 presumably that is the Taylor series for log(exp(a)+1) 21:59:47 *log(exp(x)+1) with x = log(a) 22:00:13 yeah 22:01:37 derivative exp(x)/(exp(x)+1) 22:01:46 * Pikhq curses at the PEBBLE interpreter. . . 22:02:17 Currently, I've got it saying that 3%10==111 22:03:37 can't find what d^n[log(exp(x) + 1)]/dx^n is 22:03:48 after you renamed it PEBBLE, it obviously started calculating with roman numerals 22:04:09 Obviously. 22:04:14 i gave you the first derivative 22:04:20 assuming log = ln 22:04:35 yes 22:04:47 Works if I turn off -O 2 22:05:25 Which, of course, defeats the purpose, since it's -O 2 I want working before I release. 22:06:17 maybe it is doing some wrong aliasing assumptions? 22:06:40 that would be very easy when you are dealing with a bf tape 22:06:53 I bet it's the damned language-specific macros breaking something. 22:07:14 Just got the C collection working, so I moved on, and I'm running into the same issues. 22:10:56 * Pikhq gets the feeling he'd be better off removing the interpreter backend, and just make the -lang interpret target call a seperate Brainfuck interpreter 22:13:01 . . . Ah. Found it. 22:13:04 (and me == stupid) 22:14:05 I managed to evaluate (3/10)%10, somehow. 22:14:37 hm... exp(x)/(exp(x)+1) = 1/(1+exp(-x)), might be easier 22:17:41 d^n(1/(1+y))/dy^n = (-1)^n * n! / (1+y)^(n+1) or something close to it 22:20:05 * oerjan might do this quicker if he had a computer algebra system 22:20:40 maxima 22:21:09 it's what i used to give the first series 22:22:08 anyway then you use the chain rule with exp(-x) and the product rule 22:36:20 With u = exp(-x), f(y)=1/(1+y), I get (u^n)' = -n*u^n, and d[u^n*f^('n)(u)]/dx = -n*u^n*f^('n)(u) - u^(n+1)*f^('n+1)(u) 22:37:39 8| 22:37:41 which actually seems to give a simple recursion 22:38:51 since the power of u and number of differentiations of f is always the same 22:40:14 i don't get it 22:40:31 actually i don't use what f is in that part 22:40:48 where do you get 1/(1+exp(-x)) 22:42:10 i said already that (log(exp(x)+1)' = exp(x)/(exp(x)+1), which is = 1/(1+exp(-x)) if you divide by exp(x) in both numerator and denominator 22:42:41 oh right 22:50:45 now we think of this as a linear combination of terms of the form u^n*f^('n)(u), then derivation multiplies with a matrix with -n on the main diagonal and -1 just below it 22:53:57 now for x = 0, u = 1 and f^('n)(1) = (-1)^n * n! / 2^(n+1) 23:08:26 _Snales on a Plane_ FTW! 23:08:27 *Snakes 23:09:17 snails on a plane, that's exciting 23:25:01 Have you ever had one of hose arguments that feels like (bad analogy coming up): 23:25:06 ... 23:25:54 The person on the other side might be stating that the moon landings were faked, or might be stating that the moon itself is fake, and it is unclear which. 23:25:57 ... 23:25:58 whoops. bsmntbombdood, you sure the sign in front of log(a)**4/192 is right? 23:26:00 ... 23:26:29 And you are struggling to get him to state the former, because you can't quite beleive that anyone would beleive the latter. 23:26:32 ? 23:26:37 (end bad analogy) 23:27:00 oerjan: oops. should be -1/192 23:27:58 good. then my method gives the right coefficients. 23:28:21 (-1)^n * n! / 2^(n+1) ? 23:28:42 no, more complicated, you need to do the recursion too 23:28:57 which recursion? 23:29:32 to find the coefficient for each n 23:31:12 ... 23:31:30 ah, they are not all reciprocals. - log(a)**8 * 17/645120 23:31:59 right 23:32:04 oerjan: what is the pattern? 23:32:41 sec 23:33:32 it's quite complicated. they start out small but eventually i think the factorial becomes dominant. 23:33:53 http://www.mathbin.net/11025 23:34:20 SimonRC: taylor series for log(exp(x) + 1) 23:35:02 ok 23:35:11 [1 % 2,1 % 8,0 % 1,(-1) % 192,0 % 1,1 % 2880,0 % 1,(-17) % 645120,0 % 1,31 % 14515200,0 % 1,(-691) % 3832012800,0 % 1,5461 % 5115781120,0 % 1,(-929569) % 64134053888,0 % 1,(-3202291) % 3593732096,0 % 1,221930581 % 16817061888,0 % 1,(-4722116521) % 2090860544,0 % 1,968383680827 % 12415139840,0 % 1,(-14717667114151) % 7415529472,0 % 1,2093660879252671 % 11005853696,0 % 1,86125672563201181 % 5637144576,0 % 1] 23:35:36 do you have a formula for them? 23:35:47 SimonRC: no, that's what we're trying to find 23:35:48 the only easy part is that every second one is 0 23:38:11 oh and of course there is a division by factorial in there, so the derivatives are even larger 23:38:53 what happens if you adjust them to all have the same numerator? 23:40:07 SimonRC: all the time. 23:40:16 well, often 23:41:04 ah, I'm not the only one... 23:41:33 darn Hugs is buggy with big calculations 23:41:54 heh, i usually assume they are stupid, and turns out i'm wrong 23:42:12 mh? 23:42:24 oerjan: are you using Int or Integer? 23:42:30 Rational 23:42:46 that shouldn't be a problem 23:43:07 oerjan: Try *proving* it has a bug. 23:43:31 oh that is obvious. the output is messed up. 23:43:41 "assuming they are stupid" is one of the two options 23:43:45 in that situation 23:44:00 i think it is the memory bug that has been discussed on the hugsbugs list 23:44:26 but there hasn't been a new release since it was fixed 23:44:28 oerjan: use ghci then 23:45:10 DSLs++ 23:45:44 bsmntbombdood: give details 23:45:52 of what? 23:46:06 i'll paste my algorithm 23:46:20 bsmntbombdood: why DSLs are so good right now 23:46:49 because haskell doesn't have symbolic differentiation built in 23:46:56 ah, ok 23:48:20 after removing the n! part, all the denominators are powers of 2 23:48:43 yes, of course they are 23:49:07 erm, what? 23:49:37 http://pastebin.ca/514838 23:50:12 the derivatives are all linear combinations of (-1)^n * fact n / 2^(n+1) 23:50:23 http://pastebin.ca/514839 23:50:41 first 50 coefficients with n! cancelled 23:51:25 at first the numerators are 2**n-1 23:51:50 +/-, i mean 23:52:33 I think we should get rid of the 1/2 at the beginning 23:52:38 somehow 23:54:31 * SimonRC boggles at the speed of Haskell's numeric library 23:54:49 It is printing out numbers at amazing speed 23:57:28 hmm 23:57:49 anyway dL and dLn calculate the recursive coefficients i mentioned earlier 23:58:30 what do the arguments mean? 23:58:38 whats (0:1)? 23:58:54 it means the wand has one chatge left and has never been rechargeds 23:58:56 (0:l) is l with a 0 prepended 2007-05-28: 00:04:51 oh 00:05:48 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 00:07:07 if g is a function that is a linear combination of u^n*f^('n)(u) terms, and l are the coefficients, then dL l is the list of coefficients for g' 00:07:33 (u=exp(-x)) 00:08:14 dLn n then calculates the list of coefficients for d^n(f(u))/dx^n 00:09:51 and f1 n = d^n(f(u))/dx^n | x=0 00:10:24 (f(u)=1/(1+u)) 00:13:06 maybe this series expansion isn't the best way to go 00:13:52 well the best way to go is obviously the one you ruled out at the outset :) 00:15:40 not a possibility 00:17:16 the second best is to cheat by using exp(log(a)+pi) or something 00:18:32 perhaps something with hyperbolic functions... 00:19:11 maybe combining the taylor serieses for log(x+1) and exp(x) 00:20:09 um, then you are calculating exp(x). 00:20:21 only sort of 00:20:59 this is all for a floating point library without floating point 00:21:38 x will be stored as log(x) in fixed point 00:22:45 and, i need log(x+1) so i can add 00:25:50 If working by hand, I would make some tables. 00:26:11 I think you could abbreviate them quite well 00:28:25 aah, figured out the series for the denomiators 00:28:38 for log(exp(x) + a) 00:28:58 they are n!*(a+1)**n 00:29:38 yuk 00:33:24 that's pretty useless, i can't figure out the pattern in the numerators to go with it 00:36:31 if you do f(u) = 1/(1+a*u), you can at least do the same as in the haskell program 00:36:57 http://pastebin.ca/514883 00:36:59 just replace f1 00:50:50 the roof is on fire. 00:51:20 ? 00:51:26 no reason. 00:51:43 random channel, random words. 00:52:00 no arms, no biscuit 00:52:21 i've got school in 5 hours 00:52:23 math test 00:52:28 about integratiion 00:52:30 *i 00:52:39 we don't kneed know water let the motherfucker burn? 00:52:56 i can't sleep and i don't have a clue about integration 00:53:08 bsmntbombdood: my thoughts exactly 00:53:23 except for 'know' 00:53:43 what about "kneed"? 00:53:54 that i did not notice. 00:54:01 i blame the time 00:54:28 i bet you know enough about integration to pass the test, assuming high school 00:54:39 i do, true 00:54:57 i passed the advanced integration course already 00:55:03 last year 00:55:08 got the worst grade though 00:55:13 worst passing grade 00:55:34 but i'll prolly fall asleep on the test or sleep over it 00:56:55 i bet you know enough about integration to pass the test, assuming high school <<< how can you possibly assume that= 00:56:55 ? 00:57:05 ? 00:57:54 oklopol: I'd help you with integration, but 5 hours? 00:58:12 i know the basics... just never really integrated anything 00:58:25 i did my first integrals in the advanced integration test 00:58:43 and... helped a friend integrate something half a year ago 00:59:25 we can have all the formulas in the test... but i've lost the book they're in 01:00:25 i also have no idea about where my calculator is... since i've only used it for programmin "pong" and a snake game 01:00:34 hmm 01:00:36 You're screwed. 01:00:46 that's a weird reason 01:00:49 You should've learnt integration a few weeks ago, at least. 01:01:08 i read some examples from my math book 01:01:11 seemed trivial 01:01:28 You're still screwed. 01:01:35 perhaps, perhaps 01:02:11 i might remember something, i've been awake on _some_ lessons 01:02:23 * oklopol looks for his calculator now 01:04:35 i don't remember when i last found anything by looking for it... guess it's no use 01:06:26 school is too hard :< 01:07:02 i also have no idea where my bus card is... so i pay 5 euros to be able to fail a test 01:07:17 whine whine, i'll search some more 01:10:36 my java program was failed at the university :) 01:10:52 apparently my documentation was no good 01:11:24 that sort of thing matters in the real world 01:11:41 yeah, i hate the real world 01:12:51 i had about 15 pages of documentation, the problem was i used too much finglish 01:13:17 and i referred to other parts of the documentation instead of copy pasting 01:15:17 perhaps i'll just watch futurama and drink coffe for a few hours and forget my troubles 01:15:20 *coffee 01:32:26 aren't you supposed to drink liquor to forget your troubles 01:35:57 i don't have any, and i'm actually going to go to the test, 01:45:46 -!- jix__ has joined. 01:45:52 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 01:45:54 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix. 02:46:44 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:50:32 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 03:18:58 -!- Pikhq has joined. 03:38:37 -!- jix has quit ("Bitte waehlen Sie eine Beerdigungnachricht"). 03:41:16 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 03:41:32 Blah blah bleh wobble wobble wipp mottleblaff morklebam. 03:54:57 Now you know how I feel. 03:55:38 oklopol: 2 hours! 03:56:33 oklopol: My brain is not available for donation.' 03:57:14 you can borrow GregorR-L's though 03:57:33 GregorR-L: Any good at calculus? 03:57:51 lambda calculus! 03:58:07 Mildly. 03:58:13 's been a while. 03:58:26 It's been a few weeks since I had my calc final. 03:58:41 (and, therefore, it's still not up for recall. Won't be for another month or so) 03:59:39 ooh, i crashed maxima 04:23:26 -!- ihope has joined. 04:40:28 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 04:42:13 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 04:47:13 zzzzzzzzz 04:53:49 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:00:53 mörning 05:02:08 i feel so refreshened, i'm pretty sure it compensates my having no calculator 05:02:28 whereas sentence is that to be 05:02:39 *for 05:02:54 you slept for just a few hours and you feel refreshened? 05:03:03 yes, for now 05:03:27 i'm pretty sure i'll zombify in a few hours 05:03:45 Must ... resist ... urge ... to post zombie picture ... 05:04:19 okay, now where do calculators like spending time at? 05:04:21 * bsmntbombdood is artifieing some toast 05:06:03 They like spending time in the parser and the lexer. 05:07:48 almost tripped on my math book and found it 05:07:58 now if i could just trip on the calculator too... 05:08:27 (walking here is constant tripping without the lights on) 05:11:06 wow, i found a pen :D 05:11:19 hmm... hope i can still write keyboardlessly 05:12:16 the tests are on 6 week intervals, plenty of time to forget 05:13:27 that fucking K has almost all advantages of oklotalk... how dare it 05:13:50 except for my unbelievable object system, which is not yet fully created 05:15:14 i can't believe it 05:16:21 you better 05:16:30 because it's the grim truth 05:17:25 in most cases, oklotalk loses by a few characters :< 05:18:15 my operators are so overloaded, that oklotalk squeezes everything tighter, but right-to-left just seems to solve everything with less parens 05:18:55 plus, K differentiates between high-order functions and normal ones, which means oklotalk needs quoting 05:20:23 these two things aren't problems with longer programs of course, because naming a variable removes the need for quoting (for unbelievable reasons.) and evaluation order can be changed in O(1) characters 05:21:17 once again, i managed to fail deduction... K differentiates -> it needs no quoting, oklotalk does not -> it does need quoting 05:21:52 at least i think K does that, i assumed it did not have first-class functions... and was wrong 05:23:03 AND WHY ARE FUNCTIONS DEFINED BY ASSIGNING LAMBDAS TO VARIABLES IN PLOF AND K... THAT WAS ORIGINALLY MY IDEA, THEY STOLE IT 05:23:24 (press any key to continue monologue...) 05:23:37 fuck! school ----------> 05:23:45 ........................ 05:23:47 WTF 05:24:02 oklopol: Plof predates your language. 05:24:05 wtf wtf? 05:24:10 yes yes, i know 05:24:14 i'm never serious. 05:24:27 And Lisp, which does the same thing, predates you. :p 05:24:30 K predates plof by about 10 years 05:24:45 common lisp does not do that 05:24:48 scheme predates K by 1975 05:24:50 only lisp i know 05:24:58 yes yes, as i said, i'm aware of all this 05:25:06 I never stated which one. 05:25:12 in fact, i'm aware of pretty much everything 05:25:19 Really? 05:25:24 yes yes, sure sure 05:25:28 now school! -------> 05:25:48 Tell me, exactly how fast is PFUCK when compiled with my current PEBBLE build? 05:26:12 plus, i wouldn't count on plof predating my language 05:27:20 though mine was just a vague idea for the first years 05:27:24 *year 05:27:26 http://bsmntbombdood.mooo.com/toast_foo.jpg 05:27:52 oklopol: It only exists once more than one person know about it. 05:29:15 * Pikhq stands at PFUCK, damned impressed. . . 05:29:23 that, actually, was one of my predicates for existance when i once started wondering whether i've ever had a girlfriend 05:29:27 It compiles LostKng.b. . . In 0.217 seconds. 05:29:39 ...turns out i had had her, based on exactly that 05:29:53 ------------> 05:31:39 http://bsmntbombdood.mooo.com/toast_foo_small.jpg 05:32:46 1261% improvement in speed? I think I can accept that. 05:53:31 Let me bring to you, the new, the shiny, the renamed! 05:53:42 http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pebble-1.0-preview.tar.bz2 05:53:51 http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pfuck-1.0.tar.bz2 05:55:05 (I still need a test suite and figure out what the Makefile should look like before I make pebble a 1.0 release) 05:55:31 (. . . and update the documentation (pulled out of the tarball, under the theory that erroneous documentation is worse than none)) 06:01:17 Don't all scream like fangirls at once, now. 06:09:15 -!- SuperAussieEvil has joined. 06:09:41 SuperAussieEvil shalt play with the newly renamed, newly release PEBBLE and PFUCK. 06:09:49 s/release/released/ 06:11:05 . . . Not going to respond? 06:11:17 Are you one of those "Op me for I am the bot" dealyhoos? 06:11:23 Nope. 06:11:30 Just a coder. 06:11:53 Who just released new builds of what were once BFM and Basm. 06:12:04 Ah. 06:12:23 No, I do my coding with refridgerator magnets and a laser pointer. 06:12:56 I do mine with a compiler which takes PEBBLE code and either outputs C, outputs Brainfuck, or interprets it. 06:13:25 I'm more into my idea. 06:13:34 But mine's faster. 06:14:00 Creating a language where you need a reference book to find out what simple numbers are. 06:14:25 That'd be Brainfuck. 06:14:35 Don't need it for Pebble, though. 06:14:50 Just a call to something in ^stdcons.bfm, and you're on your way. 06:18:14 ... 06:18:35 Ember. 06:19:10 source ^stdcons.bfm 06:19:10 source ^outs.bfm 06:19:10 string foo! "Ember.\n" 06:19:10 outs foo!end 06:20:22 * SuperAussieEvil falls over 06:21:16 Fine, fine. Don't take what is probably the most efficient high-level language which compiles to Brainfuck. 06:21:30 (for varying definitions of "high-level") 06:23:58 http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pebble-1.0-preview.tar.bz2 http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pfuck-1.0.tar.bz2 06:24:04 (end self-whoring for now) 06:26:37 didn't sleep at all my first nap 06:27:11 * GregorR-L imagines the 'P' in "PFUCK" is silent. 06:28:45 GregorR-L: Wasn't thinking about it like that, but I like that pronounciation. 06:29:06 Consider it official. 06:29:09 pee-fuck 06:30:12 That's just not something I want to think about. 06:30:34 Bloody. . . I forgot to update the copyright dates. 06:30:44 Still saying Copyright (c) 2006. 06:31:34 boo copyright 06:31:44 Stupid mistake fixed. 06:31:51 Public Domain Considered Harmful 06:33:06 It's only stdlib/ that's under the public domain. . . 06:33:30 And that's almost entirely composed of ports from the [[Brainfuck_algorithms]] page on the Esolangs wiki. 06:33:59 Pikhq: That was a response to bsmntbombdood. 06:34:05 Ah. 06:34:13 why? 06:34:48 bsmntbombdood: Liability disclaimers with PD software are not legally binding, however the author is still liable for all damages. 06:34:58 wtf? 06:35:20 Also, there's still no legal means to declare something as PD short of registering it as such, so most PD stuff isn't technically PD (doesn't matter since that's not really arguable in court) 06:35:44 That second one is USA-only, the first part is most countries. 06:36:43 guy who wrote rm gets sued for deleting all of someones files 06:36:52 Nope. 06:37:06 rm is copyrighted ;) 06:37:24 Given how retarded the US courts are, somebody could probably sue the author of a PD rm. 06:37:31 [for that] 06:37:32 rm on my system, at least, is part of coreutils, and so under the GPL. 07:20:05 -!- SuperAussieEvil has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:23:17 guess what: it's late and i have nothing to do 08:27:10 Guess what: Who cares. 08:27:28 i do 08:27:33 duh 08:28:06 Touché :P 09:01:11 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:20:13 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 09:23:07 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 09:32:52 -!- GregorR-L has left (?). 11:46:15 * GregorR-L imagines the 'P' in "PFUCK" is silent. <<< or it could just be pronounced 'pfuck' 11:46:39 back from the test? 11:47:35 yes 11:48:07 i managed to fail one using "assignation", whatever the correct term is 11:48:17 others were pretty much correct 11:48:27 got the answers right away 11:49:23 i fitted 7 answers on one a4 :) 11:49:47 (plus calculations) 13:18:55 -!- jix has joined. 13:40:03 -!- jix__ has joined. 13:42:11 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 13:42:12 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix. 15:04:55 -!- ehird` has joined. 17:08:42 -!- ihope has joined. 17:35:27 -!- jix__ has joined. 17:43:51 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:02:43 -!- ehird` has quit. 19:09:37 -!- calamari has joined. 19:44:50 * Pikhq complains about PFUCK being too fast 19:46:34 What's PFUCK? 19:50:52 Pebble's Fuck Up Compiler, Kay? 19:50:58 Renamed from basm. 20:15:34 Well, yesterday's loony has turned out to have the not-totally-insane beliefs. 20:15:39 They are as sensible as most religions, and less harmful than some religions. 20:15:44 Although, if he was inclined and had the required talents, the guy could start a suicide cult with them. 20:16:37 Pikhq: remind me what that translates from and to. Ditto PEBBEL 20:17:18 SimonRC: PFUCK goes from Brainfuck to C. 20:17:33 And PEBBLE goes from PEBBLE to C or Brainfuck. 20:17:44 The C backend is highly efficient now. 20:17:49 PFUCK is written in PEBBLE, right? 20:17:53 Right. 20:18:18 pfuck.bfm, when compiled to C, takes 0.214 seconds to compile LostKng.b on my system. 20:18:35 Pikhq: is the PEBBLE stdlib in BF, or is there a C version too? 20:19:09 how does PEBBLE->C compare with PEBBLE->BF->C? 20:19:37 The PEBBLE stdlib has a language-generic version written in PEBBLE (designed for Brainfuck efficiency), and language-specific variants for the C and interpreter backends. 20:19:57 Let me test the PEBBLE->BF->C path.; 20:20:15 I've tested the PEBBLE->C path with and without language-specific macros. 20:20:58 Pikhq: cool 20:21:32 The language-specific macros provide 0.214 seconds, without nets 2 seconds. . . 20:23:21 What is PEBBLE written in? 20:24:03 PEBBLE is written in Tcl. 20:24:06 ah, ok 20:24:17 You aren't a *total* masocchist then. 20:25:14 The PEBBLE->BF->C path provides 2.749 seconds to compile LostKng.b, assuming -O2 on GCC. 20:25:26 Err. Wrong executable 20:25:51 11.622 seconds. 20:27:10 so, 50 times slower 20:27:18 that is not too bad I think. 20:28:06 So, we've got 0.249 seconds with language-specific macros, 2.401 without, and 11.622 seconds when compiling the Brainfuck code itself. 20:28:34 Yeah, I think my compiler provides for some damned fast code. ;) 20:29:23 what do the language-specific macros for C look like? 20:30:14 macro name in out temp { 20:30:14 lang { /* Here be C code */ } 20:30:14 } 20:30:44 If it's part of your project, that macro will be in ./c/ 20:30:55 ok 20:30:58 If it's part of stdlib, it'll be in stdlib/c 20:31:50 If the compiler can't find the language-specific version, it goes on to the generic version, and then it errors out. 20:33:14 how does one write a generic version? 20:34:10 macro name in out temp { # Here be Pebble code } 20:34:23 ah, in Pebble itself. 20:34:28 Of course. 20:35:13 So there are built-in macros for all the bf operations, right? 20:35:35 You can't really say increment in a generic way 20:35:39 Built-in commands, yes. 20:35:44 ok 20:36:18 And a few extra built-in commands for the addition of macros, and to tell the optimization pass things. 20:38:07 like? 20:38:30 is0 and isnot0 20:38:52 Let the optimization pass know if a cell is 0, so that it can avoid do pointless cell clears. 20:38:52 ok 20:40:10 isnot0 isn't really needed in the modern language much, because the optimization pass can detect that accurately. 20:41:45 cool 20:42:06 unless you are doing funny movements with odd invariants 20:43:46 No, it detects all cell writes which could possibly change the value accurately. 20:44:16 The only time it won't work is for the language-specific macros, which have been written in such a way as to make up for that. 20:44:43 ok 20:46:51 getting into uberman's = suck 20:53:44 * Pikhq goes down for reboot 20:54:07 -!- Pikhq has quit ("Leaving."). 20:58:18 -!- Pikhq has joined. 21:03:10 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:04:43 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:14:02 -!- ehird` has joined. 21:24:26 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:52:43 bsmntbombdood: have you sticked with the nap system? 21:52:57 i'm trying 21:54:42 how's it going? 21:54:46 tired 21:54:50 sounds like something i'd like to try 21:55:08 but since you seem to have started already, better for me to see if you die, first 21:55:10 :) 21:55:41 because if you do, i don't think i'll try it 21:55:45 i'm not a fan of dying 21:55:46 i dunno if i'm going to make it past tonight 21:55:52 hehe 21:55:54 go outside 21:56:04 oh... the nap 21:56:11 well, go outside 21:58:02 i'm worried i won't wake up after a nap 21:59:27 you live alone? 22:00:22 well, if i put an alarm almost immediately after falling asleep (< 1h), i almost always wake up 22:00:43 though of course not if you're tired like hell... 22:04:09 there is an anecdote about Fridtjof Nansen, he took his afternoon nap with his keys or something in his hand. The nap only lasted until he woke up by his keys hitting the floor... 22:04:51 i heard that about pascal or someone... 22:05:08 a way to keep him awake while reading in the night 22:05:13 how's that an anecdote 22:05:29 i don't see why it even merits a mention of a famous person 22:05:39 it's just a way to prevent falling asleep... 22:06:18 presumably it's an anecdote because it gets told about various famous persons 22:06:42 no one tells anecdotes about me rubbing my forehead with a frozen beanbag :< 22:06:51 (nansen would be a natural choice in norway) 22:07:43 my impression was that whoever it was needed just such a short nap 22:08:04 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:08:57 btw, i heard this strange anecdote about oklopol. apparently he uses to rub his forehead with a frozen beanbag when he has a hangover. 22:11:32 * Pikhq might wake up for a nuclear attack. . . Might. 22:12:32 boom 22:12:43 i have alarm set on my cellphone 22:13:00 before the actual alarm plays, the cellphone goes out of sleep mode (turns on) 22:13:13 as it does that, it makes a tiny sound 22:13:39 (not intentionally - probably some voltage change in the speaker as the systems turn on) 22:13:47 it's that tiny sound that usually wakes me up :) 22:14:30 oerjan: i've never had a hangover, beanbags are for keeping the eyes open :) 22:15:44 -!- digital_me has joined. 22:15:58 oklopol: I'm sorry, but anecdotes always change. I expect it to swiftly change into a Pekka/Toivonen joke. 22:16:58 who's he? 22:17:04 I heard this anecdote about oerjan, he uses to drink rubbing alcohol and eat bags full of beans 22:17:45 lament: :-P 22:18:07 and then he has hangovers :) 22:18:09 Pekka/Toivonen are the stock names Norwegians use in jokes about Finnish 22:18:15 lament: BTW, that occurs with mechanical alar clocks too, I hear. 22:18:17 mmmm bags full of beans 22:18:24 gotta get some of that -> 22:18:26 *alarm 22:18:38 SimonRC: yeah, i can imagine it would. 22:18:59 i KNOW the sound will be followed by the alarm, so i wake up. 22:19:41 terribly flatulent hangovers 22:19:58 :-S 22:20:22 -!- ihope has joined. 22:21:04 hi 22:29:00 Ello. 22:29:04 LO 22:29:50 HI? 22:30:00 HI, MEIN! 22:31:45 WAS? 22:34:41 Mm-hmm. 22:35:03 i would imagine rubbing alcohol would be unpleasent 22:35:53 well duh 22:36:11 it took like 8 minutes for my alarm clock to wake me just now :/ 22:38:08 bsmntbombdood: how much have you been awake now? 22:38:13 i mean, when did you start? 22:38:43 last night 22:39:27 so... i've had less sleep than you :P 22:39:45 16 hours ago, so i've had 4 naps 22:40:05 bsmntbombdood: good luck 22:40:17 hehe, it's 00:37, i have another test at 8:00, and i have to write an essay still 22:40:30 and i got about 2 hours sleep last night 22:41:02 My exam is in 14 hours' time 22:41:36 SimonRC: thanks 22:41:42 /TIME! 22:41:54 1540 22:42:03 2340 22:42:07 2240 22:42:14 Generally it's a good idea to be well-slept before an exam... I think. 22:44:40 0040 22:44:44 0043 22:44:46 heh 22:45:18 * bsmntbombdood conjectures that SimonRC, oklopol and oerjan are all on the same continent, and that continent is different from his 22:45:53 -!- Pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:49:23 bsmntbombdood: did you read today's xkcd before decideing on your sleep experiment? 22:49:32 -!- Pikhq has joined. 22:49:59 no 22:50:19 synchronicity then 22:50:43 I'm 1749 right now. 22:50:44 I think with practice that comic could actually be done. 22:50:58 * ihope scrambles some data 22:51:12 well, i'm off to the neighbor's to suspend some meat over a flame 22:51:25 I think that means bsmntbombdood's two hours west of me. 22:52:25 And oklopol's seven hours east, oerjan's eight, and SimonRC's nine. 22:52:40 assuming we are all on daylight saving 22:52:52 Egad. 22:53:10 which we europeans are 22:53:20 I'll just assume that you are and hope that it all goes away because of that. 22:53:21 but i've heard there are american exceptions 22:53:28 -!- Pikh1 has joined. 22:54:06 wait, simonRC is six, not nine 22:54:10 If the schools... and everyone else didn't follow DST, I probably wouldn't. 22:54:10 bush said "zomg changing DST will save are engergiez" 22:54:13 eh wait 22:54:39 anyhow you have us in the wrong order 22:54:40 -!- Pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.). 22:54:43 the normal human time systems suck :/ 22:54:46 Egad. 22:54:48 Indeed. 22:54:51 -!- Pikh1 has changed nick to pikhq. 22:54:53 -!- pikhq has changed nick to Pikhq. 22:55:05 bsmntbombdood: they're not "normal human"! 22:55:33 SimonRC is in England, which is west of Norway where I am, which is west of Finland where Oklopol is 22:56:36 I am in GMT 22:57:08 only during winter surely 22:57:09 o_O weird seeing myself capitalized 22:57:19 oklopol: you're capitalized? 22:57:55 for some reason i didn't use completion when writing his nick 22:58:06 it's so nice to write 22:58:09 that's why 22:58:16 What? 22:58:25 Oh, I see. 22:58:33 ". . . which is west of Finland where Oklopol is" 22:59:15 actually to be precise _some_ parts of Norway are east of Finland, in the north 22:59:22 (And I suddenly notice I'm the only one using capital letters at the beginnings of sentences.) 23:00:01 why is "I" capitalized? 23:00:07 us lazy typists 23:00:35 *east of most of finland 23:00:37 oh, right, the meat suspension 23:00:52 huh? 23:01:09 bsmntbombdood: because people like themselves! 23:18:11 -!- ehird` has quit. 2007-05-29: 00:16:53 -!- hamZta has joined. 00:36:48 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 00:48:43 -!- hamZta has quit ("was kicked by hamZta (§284.395 hamZta)"). 01:02:11 -!- jix__ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:02:32 -!- jix__ has joined. 01:10:45 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 01:36:57 -!- IChrisI has joined. 01:37:25 -!- oerjan has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:41:31 -!- IChrisI has left (?). 01:57:17 -!- digital_me has quit ("leaving"). 02:46:13 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 02:46:23 http://www.codu.org/hats.php < Now finally up to date. 02:58:48 -!- jix__ has quit ("CommandQ"). 03:24:10 i overslept again :( 03:24:35 Haha 03:44:57 * Pikhq is of the opinion that you like hats too much 03:45:29 How many pairs of underwear do you own? Probably more than the number of hats I own ... I think you like underwear too much 03:45:53 How do you know I'm not a nudist or something? :p 03:46:08 True. 03:50:35 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:58:25 every nerd has to have some weird ass hobby 04:59:33 I have to presume you intended a hyphen in there somewhere. 04:59:40 And I'm going to hope it's before "ass" 04:59:43 you can choose where to put it 04:59:50 Because I'd say there are plenty of nerds without a weird ass-hobby. 05:04:37 http://www.codu.org/hats/Kofia-med.jpg < My newest hat is super-cool. 05:05:11 Though it makes me look super-bald :P 05:07:39 * Pikhq lacks a weird ass-hobby. 05:07:46 Weird-ass hobbies? Plenty. 05:08:03 一番は日本語だ。 05:46:49 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyl5Mwr84MA 05:49:47 . . . 05:50:31 I feel sorry for kids who saw that, I really do. 05:56:31 "Always ask someone you love before you put anything in your mouth." 06:55:17 libpng is incredibly complicated 06:56:52 Would you prefer to do a PNG decoder by hand? 06:57:25 well, no 06:58:43 but come on, it uses setjmp 06:59:44 And libc provides for it. 07:10:17 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:22:11 http://www.google.com/search?q=lodepng 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 10:22:14 i overslept as well.. luckily they let me in 40 minutes late 10:23:00 because i was the only one making the test (overslept it once already) it would've been kind of a waste not letting me in 10:26:12 you have more hats than i have underwaer 10:26:14 *wear 10:26:45 i'm pretty sure i have less than 8 10:28:26 this is killin me 10:28:30 hehe :P 10:28:53 still trying though? 10:29:31 yeah 10:29:38 just woke up from a nap 10:29:43 late again? 10:29:55 no 10:30:00 tired as hell though 10:30:07 hmm... i wonder if coffee would make that harder 10:30:09 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 10:30:17 or easier 10:30:18 that's what i've read 10:30:22 yeah 10:30:33 for some reason i assumed it would 11:39:58 -!- jix__ has joined. 11:56:18 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:04:55 -!- jix__ has changed nick to jix. 12:35:29 bsmntbombdood: did you read any other resources before starting? other than that one short post 12:35:34 i mean 12:35:42 about the not- sleeping thing 12:35:52 *not-sleeping-that-much 12:36:02 just google "ubermans sleep schedule" or "polyphasic sleep" 12:36:04 there's lots 12:37:07 how many have tried it? 12:37:10 i mean 12:37:15 10 12:37:18 or 1000 12:37:23 well 12:37:24 i don't know... 12:37:33 guess i'll read google. 12:38:19 anyone from germany here (sorry if i should've already known), wanna write me a 150 word essay :> 12:38:36 some guy blogged a whole 6 months of it 12:38:58 8| 12:38:59 wow 12:39:14 i would too, prolly 12:41:36 i hope it gets better soon 12:43:11 what do you mean? 12:44:37 i hope i adapt soon and stop being tired 12:44:44 ah 12:44:48 two days now? 12:44:53 hmm 12:45:03 hard to say when i started 12:45:21 i should probably be able to tell whether we last talked yesterday or the day after that... but i can't 12:45:53 prolly in the night, i don 12:46:02 't see any reason why i wouldn't have been here 12:47:48 i woke up from my last full night's sleep about 2 days ago 12:49:33 i've done that much without any sleep a few times 12:50:02 but they say you lose your mind after about 3-4, however little you need sleep normally 12:50:13 never tried 13:02:40 -!- jix__ has joined. 13:10:59 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:33:44 oooh neat 13:33:47 "Between the 120 ~ 150 hours mark vivid hallucinations, similar, but more lucid than those of a psilocybin experience tend to begin, and by the seventh day (160+ hours) the participants are reported to be both awake and lucidly dreaming continuously." 13:33:55 that is with completely no sleep 15:35:26 -!- ehird` has joined. 17:20:10 that does NOT sound fun. 17:27:54 wow wa woo wa 17:50:15 was lolcode perpetrated by one of us lot? 17:59:39 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:24:15 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 18:31:41 -!- jix__ has quit ("CommandQ"). 20:37:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:37:28 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit). 20:38:56 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:56:38 -!- aarcane has joined. 20:56:49 Hi 20:57:07 Does anyone know of a brainfuck interpreter which can be built as an apache module so I can use it in my database ? 20:57:15 erm, in my website I mean 20:57:32 Hmm. 20:57:37 I think there is modbf, actually. 20:57:37 and I'd like if it included bindings to LOLCODE as well, since I'm planning to mix brainfuck and LOLCODE on my website :) 20:57:51 Dear God. . . 20:57:56 Pikhq, what's the website ? 20:58:25 http://sourceforge.net/projects/modbf/ Can't attest to the quality, though. 20:58:43 You could possibly be better off trying to write that in modphp or something. 20:59:48 Mmm 21:31:03 17:48:45 < SimonRC> was lolcode perpetrated by one of us lot? 21:31:58 Jessicatz and red_herring seem to be the main proponents of LOLCODE, and neither is here 21:32:37 :-( 21:33:31 in fact I appear to be the only common link between #esoteric and #LOLCODE 21:34:15 and that's just 'cause jessicatz got me thinking about brainfuck o,.,0 21:35:14 speaking of brainfuck, how does one use the Database in brainfuck ? 21:37:43 zzz 21:39:13 There is no database in Brainfuck. 21:39:31 You could do something such as PESOIX to provide for Brainfuck database access, though. 21:44:17 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 21:52:42 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:53:17 LOLCODE is goddamn stupid IMO 21:53:38 its authors appear to believe that an esolang based on internet abbreviations is a very new and funny idea that deserves its own website 21:54:50 also everybody ELSE seems to think its the funniest thing possible 21:55:05 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:55:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:56:09 well it's not new, there is Omgrofl 21:56:16 exactly 21:56:38 but somehow it's all over the net with "Looky someone made a prgo languaj with INTERNET WURDS LOL!!!!!!!!" 21:58:06 hmm... it's long since i've gotten excited about languages whose main idea is their connection to the real world... like pokemon->commands, internet-slang->commands or smileys->commands 21:58:50 while these could make the greatest languages of all if properly made... their actual functionality is not cool in any way, usually 21:59:27 well, of course i get excited about them 21:59:35 i get about any language 21:59:42 There's also smiley. 21:59:50 but not like "omg why didn't i invent this" excited 21:59:54 many esolangs are just a thin level of coding above something ordinary. 22:00:01 i mean, LOLCODE can be a good esolang... 22:00:09 but with the stupid overhyping and all of that, it 22:00:16 's lost my respect at least 22:00:17 oklopol: I've actually had ideas for a Pokemon language which *could* be interesting. . . Of course, it's just not interesting enough for me to write it. 22:00:24 The most I'll do is talk about it. 22:00:24 heh 22:00:32 Pikhq: object oriented, surely? "I choose you, CLASS!" -> instance of CLASS 22:00:44 ehird`: Nope. 22:00:51 :( 22:01:05 Each Pokemon contains a list of attacks. It goes through each attack before going on to the next. . . 22:01:09 -!- crathman has joined. 22:01:24 It's looping construct is "mimic", wherein it can temporarily become another Pokemon. 22:01:28 heh 22:01:46 that's an example of syntax-driven esolang design, which i was talking about, that of ehird`'s... which is kinda rude to say since you just said it :) 22:01:49 So, psuedo-functional. 22:02:31 Really, IMO, if you're going to do an esolang that's syntax based, you should have more than just the syntax be interesting. 22:03:38 (or make the syntax so damned weird that that alone is justification. . .) 22:03:54 hehe 22:03:59 that's cool of course 22:04:01 (Malbolge's syntax counts, and it still has more than just syntax) 22:04:35 i've never played with malbolge 22:04:43 always assumed i ain't leet enough 22:04:55 That's because nobody is. 22:06:03 hrm.. a language where "hello\nhello\nhello" is an infinite loop 22:06:04 i like 22:07:38 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65789 22:07:39 i highly doubt this is turing complete... it can infinite loop and metaprogram but not much more 22:08:51 syntax: INPUT or INPUT\nREGEXP\NREPLACEMENT (the replacements are carried out, then it is evaluated as one of those two syntaxes) 22:08:56 ANYTHING. -> prints ANYTHING 22:09:52 "one of those two syntaxes" ? 22:10:20 syntax: INPUT or INPUT\nREGEXP\NREPLACEMENT (the replacements are carried out, then it is evaluated as one of INSERT THIS MESSAGE HERE) 22:10:24 quining syntax. :) 22:10:56 hmm 22:11:01 i guess i'm just stupid. 22:11:23 i'll try to understand that for a few minutes, then ask again 22:12:21 syntax: INPUT or INPUT\nREGEXP\NREPLACEMENT (the replacements are carried out, then it [it? the new INPUT?] is evaluated [like recursively?] as one of INSERT THIS MESSAGE HERE [i have no idea...]) 22:12:34 the world through my eyes 22:12:38 like recursively - yes, it the new input - yes 22:12:52 okay 22:13:06 have you seen slashes 22:13:07 // 22:13:09 /// 22:13:13 EVALUATION PROCESS: INPUT. if INPUT is ANYTHING., output ANYTHING, OTHERWISE... INPUT\nREGEXP\nREPLACEMENT (the replacements are carried out, then the new input is evaluated) 22:13:40 that is a deathmode for slashes. 22:13:52 deathmode? 22:13:59 opposite of wimpmode 22:14:02 ah 22:14:25 we tried to make a nontrivial loop in slashes... no one could do it 22:14:52 hello.XhelloXworld 22:14:52 X 22:14:54 \n 22:14:56 ^ hrm. this SHOULD print "world" 22:14:58 but it prints "hello" 22:15:30 and in slashes you can have "/first/replacements/ any text here, just output /second/replacement/ sdf" 22:15:35 evaluates left-right 22:15:40 * Pikhq wants a death mode for Brainfuck. 22:15:48 and each time a char other than / is seen, it's output 22:15:50 actually, slashes doesn't have regexes 22:15:56 oh 22:16:01 damn 22:16:06 you're right 22:16:11 part of what makes it so difficult 22:16:17 i'm pretty sure it won't get easier though, actually 22:16:31 well - some regexp engines are near turingcomplete 22:16:35 perl's IS turing complete iirc 22:16:46 because you can't make context-binded replacements with regexes 22:16:51 so theoretically you could write the program just being a regexp with input crafted to make it work 22:16:54 unless it's made that way 22:17:00 hmm 22:17:16 i'd say pumping lemma. 22:18:06 however assuming only "normal" regexes it might still be as difficult to write a real loop, if you cannot handle escape characters 22:19:17 well 22:19:21 hmm my interpreter is totally borked 22:19:30 * ehird` writes a spec and makes someone else do it 22:19:42 if you have a way to make bnf'ish regexes, basically tree-rewriting 22:19:47 the problem with slashes as i see it is that you cannot do different things to \ in the "program" and "output" part, so quining seems nearly impossible 22:19:49 then making loops would be trivial 22:20:30 hmm 22:20:48 i only understand my own thoughts... i hate being human 22:21:07 and, i think you mean / 22:21:24 well, both \ and / 22:21:29 oh 22:21:29 okay 22:21:31 ah 22:21:35 fex, true 22:22:01 slashes quining is easy 22:22:05 "hello world" is a quine in slashes. 22:22:09 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65795 22:22:11 OK, someone implement ^^ that 22:22:25 ehird`: non trivial quine for looping 22:22:43 that was implicit given we searched for one for ages 22:23:37 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65796 22:23:39 that's a sample program 22:24:09 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65798 22:24:11 and its evaluation process 22:25:34 you can write loops in it, at least, with clever regexps 22:25:39 no idea if its TC 22:25:52 probably not 22:26:39 hmm 22:27:01 someone tell me how regexes make that easier than slashes, please 22:27:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out). 22:27:10 also, what did oerjan say there 22:27:16 well... regexps are sane and fun and evil 22:27:23 oh 22:27:25 \1 22:27:28 indeed 22:27:31 that is useful 22:27:33 yes - match groups 22:27:57 take that, lisp folks - you can't arbitarily modify the TEXT and SYNTACTICAL STRUCTURE of your programs! :D 22:28:19 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:28:29 possibly more IO etc could be done with , and stuff 22:29:08 ehird`: you german? 22:29:15 err no british 22:29:27 i'm pretty sure someone will write my essay if i try for long enough 22:29:32 next channel! 22:29:44 i'm pretty sure someone will implement my language if i try for long enough 22:29:49 hehe 22:30:03 can you explain the syntax more precisely? 22:30:19 oerjan: as far as where the regexp/replacement are got form? 22:30:21 *from 22:30:35 yep 22:30:48 if so, it's just a simple "Does INPUT consist of three lines? If so, the lines are INPUT, MATCH, REPLACE" 22:30:52 i forget the names - you know what i mean 22:31:21 and is that splitting redone after each substitution? 22:31:33 only if it needs to check if it needs some 22:31:53 "is there no search/replace possible? if so," is what triggers the check 22:32:26 eval(code){code.replace("\\n","\n"); s=code.split("\n"); if(s.length==1)print code; else eval(s[0].regex_replace(s[1],s[2])); } 22:32:29 that? 22:32:37 what language is THAT? 22:32:45 i guess typeless c 22:32:51 kinda obvious what it means... 22:32:52 ... 22:32:54 :D 22:32:58 anyway, no, not that 22:33:09 it doesn't handle \n etc in replacement/input 22:33:17 and it's the ANYTHING. that triggers the printing, not it being on one line 22:33:29 what? 22:33:30 (e.g. you could have two lines "ABC\nDEF." and it'd print that) 22:33:34 what does ANYTHING. mean? 22:33:42 exactly 22:33:51 oerjan: any character, including a dot, followed by a terminating dot 22:34:05 just one character? 22:34:10 no 22:34:21 I didn't sleep last night. I'm not tired, but I hae no energy whatsoever. Argh. 22:34:21 any... string? 22:34:22 (any character, including a dot+)terminating dot 22:34:23 ;) 22:34:29 s/hae/have/ 22:34:38 any character or any string? 22:34:44 * bsmntbombdood laughs at GregorR 22:34:50 read my evaluation process paste 22:34:52 string 22:34:54 you'll see hwo it works 22:35:25 and on the lolcode thing, cat macros are awesome 22:35:41 ehird`: i won't 22:35:55 what's not to understand about it? 22:38:26 so if the input _both_ contains 3 lines and ends with ., a substitution is done. 22:38:51 no 22:38:56 i'll refine my spec 22:39:50 proof: http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/caption1.jpg 22:40:25 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65806 22:40:28 that should be unambigious. 22:41:54 so the answer was "yes" 22:42:34 "Is INPUT 3 lines, and only 3 lines?" this is kinda funny :P 22:42:57 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65808 22:43:01 and some comprehensive examples 22:43:13 oerjan: no - the input doesn't have to end with . to perform a substitution 22:44:05 that is not what my question meant 22:44:31 "so if the input _both_ contains 3 lines and ends with ., a substitution is done." 22:44:33 GODSDAMNIT IT'S PAOLINI ALL OVER AGAIN! 22:44:51 "and ends with ." 22:44:58 the problem with slashes as i see it is that you cannot do different things to \ in the "program" and "output" part, so quining seems nearly impossible <<< can you explain that so that even i undestand? 22:45:11 if the spec + the example evaluations aren't enough, then i hav no idea what is :) 22:45:16 most things can't be explained that way, but i'll try my luck 22:45:20 someone does what a thousand amartures have been doing for a decade, but they manage to make it popular for some reason, and they get all the fucking attention. 22:45:30 SimonRC: what - LOLCODE? 22:45:44 -!- ihope has joined. 22:45:51 SimonRC: that's the gist of pop music 22:45:59 yeah 22:46:03 i think i understand your language now 22:46:05 SimonRC: i agree if so. 22:46:11 i recognize my childhood piano riffs in todays popular music 22:46:15 SimonRC: reddit's going crazy about it 22:46:26 i pointed out its old had and got a nice shiny -8 points 22:46:29 *hat 22:48:53 SimonRC: The worst part being that it's not all that good. 22:49:15 Pikhq: what - LOLCODE? 22:49:18 if so, i agree. 22:49:21 oklopol: most quines go something like: turn the data of the program into two copies, one being the rest of the program and one being the same data. this requires being able to treat the two copies differently, which seems impossible in slashes 22:49:22 Yeah. 22:49:30 The author asked what a ternary op was when he was shown one 22:49:35 (X) :) Y :< Z i think it was 22:49:39 and he asked if it was a goto label 22:49:49 It's not even really esoteric! 22:49:53 and that "it has too much punctuation could it be expressed in words" 22:50:06 a ternary operator without symbols ... useless! :) 22:50:24 If I can grok a program in it without having read the spec, it's not at all esoteric. 22:50:24 Pikhq: yes, it has includes and stuff - I CAN HAS STDIO? WHY CAN DOES YOU NEEDS STDIO? just do IO! 22:50:39 nonononono ternaries.... use other fixes for your multioperand needs! 22:50:52 <3 ternary ops 22:51:08 * Pikhq is almost tempted to make a real Esolang which is superficially similar to LOLCODE 22:51:29 It will, of *course*, be RPN. 22:51:29 i hope people forget about LOLCODE soon 22:51:32 I am bitching about this more than you lot because I have seen it before. 22:51:37 I mean, more generally... 22:51:43 and real esolangs can reclaim :) 22:51:50 fucking Paolini did it with conlangs 22:52:02 SimonRC: conlangs? 22:52:04 okay, what's lolcode? 22:52:07 SimonRC: What, like the various Brainfuck variants which just change the instruction symbols? 22:52:10 oklopol: Google it. 22:52:12 someone post the url if you have it 22:52:13 oklopol: google it 22:52:15 meh 22:52:17 oh 22:52:18 it takes a week 22:52:19 constructed languagse. 22:52:22 http://ww.lolcode.com/ 22:52:27 thanx 22:52:28 the speakable type 22:52:30 its horrific 22:52:46 not _necessarily_ speakable... 22:52:47 it got popular before it was even implemented, too 22:52:53 It's *really* stupid. 22:53:02 author was apparently either an amazing brain-evaluator or can't program. 22:53:06 It's like a friggin' syntax replacement for C! 22:53:23 Like genocides, you get really sick of them quite quickly. 22:53:27 (and a really bad one, only supporting a subset) 22:53:41 Oh, god. 22:53:48 lolcode's syntax doesn't mangle c's semantics enough to make it esoteric, but it also changes it too much so its just stupid 22:53:57 "variables are untyped, *as far as we can tell so far*" 22:54:12 *hurl* 22:54:19 Pikhq: take a look at some of the implementations http://ww.lolcode.com/contributions/lolphp 22:54:26 It's a bad sign when the spec doesn't even *decide* on whether or not it's typed. 22:54:55 Excuse me while I call that "stupid". 22:55:02 LOLCODE is stupid 22:55:08 lolcode is basic then? 22:55:15 it looks like it 22:55:19 oklopol: heh 22:55:27 http://ww.lolcode.com/contributions/mah-bukkit i don't even think this is PARSABLE. 22:55:50 I get the feeling that nobody involved is a coder. 22:56:14 its mindboggling that an esolang has its own domain 22:56:30 So far, LOLCODE has appeared to me to be entirely loosely typed. I see this as causing lots of problems when it comes to implementation… even if we limit ourselves to LOLCODE being interpreted. — Kyle, 2007/05/29 09:11 22:56:30 ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm .... loose typing is much easier to implement 22:56:59 "I agree with dynamic typing. Otherwise, it sounds too much like a programming language. — Risser, 2007/05/29 16:31" ... 22:57:04 Especially if you just want to write it in a higher-level, loosely-typed language. 22:57:08 The hell? 22:57:34 http://ww.lolcode.com/contributions/database-queries DATABASE QUERIES IN A LANGUAGE CORE? 22:57:37 Um, a huge amount of languages are dynamically typed. Go back to "AppleBASIC for Beginners", please. 22:57:44 WHEN ALL THE IMPLEMENTATIONS ARE ABOUT 3 LINES 22:57:49 AND ARE VERY INCOMPLETE 22:57:53 Pikhq: it was a quote 22:57:59 ehird`: I know. 22:58:02 ok 22:58:14 I could probably write a self-hosting implementation in 100 lines or less. 22:58:26 When your esolang is that simple, you fail. 22:58:41 esolangs should either be nicely big or tiny 22:58:44 never inbetween 22:58:57 now - somebody implement my language 22:58:59 hmm 22:59:13 you can't have but one file open at a time 22:59:17 same with everything 22:59:29 http://ww.lolcode.com/contributions/hey-guys ........ threading...... DO THESE PEOPLE REALISE THEY'RE DREAMING FAR TOO FAR AHEAD?!!!!!! 23:00:09 I think they want it to be more of a practical language than an esolang. . . 23:00:11 that's what you get when you don't know what turing completeness is... 23:00:11 But fail horribly. 23:00:15 Pikhq: Nah 23:00:18 It's a "joke" 23:00:27 But it's a joke they don't quite get themselvse 23:00:45 So they just take loads of shitty concepts, warp them to their non-programming brains, and laugh about them 23:00:53 And make 3-line implementations that don't actually work, using php and substr(). 23:01:09 i hate practical languages... perl makes me vomit with rage sometimes :) 23:01:21 though might be just my opinion it's practical 23:01:27 Then you must hate PEBBLE. 23:01:35 hmm 23:01:49 i dont think the people doing all of this realise that the language with all the current suggestions would be 1. very hard to implement 2. a very big slow implementation 23:02:05 If you go with the base suggestion, then it's far too easy. 23:02:17 i mean all the contribs 23:02:25 Yeah. 23:02:37 * oerjan is taking a shot at ehird's language. 23:02:56 yay! 23:03:02 what language are you implementing it in? 23:03:14 the same one i hope 23:03:18 oklopol, avert your eyes! 23:03:24 in perl of course 23:03:31 self-hosting without an original impl? haha 23:03:46 makes it trivial, i hope 23:03:46 ehird`: it's the only pure way 23:04:03 oerjan: :) 23:04:04 You know that Esolang contest a while back? 23:04:11 i hope ihope is not too upset with all these mentions of his name 23:04:14 In lieu of judging, I think the entries, at least, should be posted. 23:04:42 "I hope" is not my name. 23:05:01 You can tell because it beeps whenever you say my name, but it doesn't beep when you say "I hope". :-P 23:05:02 ihope ihope hopes that ihope ihope hopes that ihope hopes. 23:05:08 ^ valid! 23:05:56 Besides, there are two other puns you can make out of "ihope". 23:06:01 Three puns total. 23:06:27 ( i hope that )+ 23:06:30 ^^^ valid 23:06:36 except 23:06:39 for the last that 23:06:45 ( i hope that )+ i hope 23:07:26 hope... i've seen it too many times, starting to think there is no such word 23:07:28 omfg 23:07:36 i hate when that happens 23:07:43 ihope ihope stops eating at the ihop 23:07:45 AHA! I have it 23:07:46 oerjan: does it work? :P 23:08:25 i am a slow coder 23:08:33 Yup, there's two of the puns. 23:08:51 oerjan: perl taught me concepts, so i have to like it, i just hate things like perl's etc. 23:08:58 i'm fast! 23:09:01 but bad :< 23:09:23 I just have to take a different attitude. 23:09:32 SimonRC: umwhat 23:10:01 so i hop into a bus and go to ihop where, i hope, i'll meet ihope 23:10:20 "I hop"? That's one I haven't seen before. 23:10:24 I need to take the D&D dragon attitude: extreme patience, and teasing of those that age ten times faster than oneself. 23:10:27 so i hop into a hope bus and i hope i go to ihop where i hope i'll hope to meat ihope 23:10:41 what 23:10:47 Should I just tell you what the third pun is? :-P 23:11:07 fourth 23:11:10 third is 'i hop' 23:11:19 Mm. 23:11:30 i'm so tired, i haven't slept a wink \ i'm so tired, my mind is on the blink \ i wonder should i get up and fix myself a drink \ no, no no 23:11:31 Should I tell you what the fourth one is, then? 23:12:04 no. We don't actually care. 23:12:10 Okay. 23:12:43 oerjan: i'll s/// you soon if you don't post an impl! *g* 23:13:08 ihope: please tell! 23:13:26 no!! 23:13:33 :< 23:13:34 s/no/yes 23:13:35 HAHAHAHA 23:14:21 Of course, this involves sending automated emails saying things like "Brainfuck is 15 years old today? Where is LOL"front-page-of-digg"CODE *now*, eh?" 23:14:27 iHope 23:14:29 hijo puta no lo digas 23:14:41 iHope? 23:14:50 ihope: lame 23:14:52 oklopol: From Apple. 23:15:03 SimonRC: Why do you check digg in the first place 23:15:13 i don't get it 23:15:17 i might not know it 23:15:23 oklopol: Apple, iLife, duh!! 23:15:24 Apple does iEverything. 23:15:25 oh... iTunes, iPod 23:15:31 yeah 23:15:44 the site was a bit slow, so I thought to check some common traffic-generators 23:16:00 did you kill it? :) 23:16:05 SimonRC: reddit! reddit! :) 23:17:04 Ok, folks, how long till Eric Bauman catches on? 23:17:22 3 seconds 23:17:29 3 23:17:29 2 23:17:30 For is it not sung: "He travelled all around, on the wave of each phenomenon."? 23:17:32 2 1/2 23:17:36 2 1/3 23:17:40 2 1/3456349857958734598347598375983487593875893759379345 23:17:44 lol 23:17:51 it might be a long second. 23:18:23 -!- red_herring has joined. 23:18:27 hi 23:18:39 so umm 23:18:43 hi 23:18:44 oerjan: testing it with an infinite loop are we?? *g* 23:18:50 why yuou callin LOLCODE an esoteric language. 23:18:54 IM OFFENDED. 23:18:55 red_herring: we're NOT. 23:19:06 in fact, RIGHT here, just now, we're insulting it! 23:19:09 so HAR 23:19:10 who's calling what where 23:19:19 It's an *attempt at* an esoteric language 23:19:23 LOLCODE is <3 23:19:23 :-S 23:19:32 SimonRC, it's not esoteric, it's functional 23:19:33 SimonRC: I don't think the authors know what esolangs are 23:19:36 aarcane: You are wron. 23:19:37 *wrong 23:19:40 LOLCODE is following a 30-year-old tradition without knowing it 23:19:44 esoteric languages are useless by definition :) 23:19:45 Functional in the pure sense? 23:19:49 erm no 23:19:51 Or functional in the useful sense 23:20:01 lolcode is functional? 23:20:03 Because... if useful, then WTF - who would actually code in macros? 23:20:09 aarcane: please don't use terminology before learning what it means. 23:20:10 "esoteric" in this context means that is is weird for the purpose of being weird 23:20:34 i suggest we get a bot that auto kickbans anyone saying "LOLCODE" without "sucks" or "i hate" in the same sentence 23:20:39 heh 23:20:41 functional in this sense means it works 23:20:54 aarcane: so it's a real language that you seriously expect people to use for serious purposes 23:21:01 if so, you're deluded 23:21:03 ehird`, definately. 23:21:09 "definitely" 23:21:22 ehird`, it's a high level programming language for children and lolcatz <3 23:21:22 please go bang your head against a brick wall and then stop 23:21:43 dude think about it 23:21:48 aarcane: oh, i see, we're playing the "LOLCATS LOL LOL FUNNAY LOLLLERERSRZ" card 23:21:51 myspacers want to learn how to program 23:21:57 red_herring: oh shit 23:22:03 but words like 'function' and 'equals' dont mean anything to them 23:22:11 ... shit shit shit. you're right 23:22:13 especially things like 'includes' 23:22:16 high-level? 23:22:17 ... we're dead 23:22:18 we want to write then a language 23:22:20 thats high level 23:22:26 but is understandable by the public. 23:22:27 how is it high-level? 23:22:27 >.> 23:22:28 <.< 23:22:32 it isnt.... 23:22:36 to be honest 23:22:38 It really just looks stupid to me. 23:22:41 it's High Level Programming for Low Level people :) 23:22:42 i just want to go through the python source code 23:22:54 and do %s/keyword/lolkeyword/ 23:22:58 and recompile 23:23:00 Pikhq: it is 23:23:09 And it sure as hell isn't functional. 23:23:18 aarcane: i wish you'd just realise its an idiotic idea 23:23:20 I fail to see how something can be functional without even having functions. 23:23:31 Pikhq: aarcane meant "usable" 23:23:49 i think Pikhq's was still correct 23:24:00 ehird`: Then aarcane should go back and learn a good deal about computer science. 23:24:19 Pikhq: I agree. 23:24:28 At least as much I have in my spare time after school. 23:24:29 Nobody involved in LOLCAT can program beyond PHP. 23:24:31 hahaha go to school to learn 23:24:50 bsmntbombdood: No, learning in your spare time is just as effective. 23:24:51 bsmntbombdood: nowhere did he say school 23:25:06 oh wow 23:25:13 i is too sleepy 23:25:32 that's so great, i wish i could've started as well 23:25:33 i = too_sleepy; 23:25:45 ehird`, I've got years of experience programming in C, C++, Javascript, (ashamedly) Visual Basic, Java, and Python, as well as PHP. 23:25:56 aarcane: It doesn't show. 23:26:12 aarcane: The only decent languages there are C, JS and Python. 23:26:25 Also, knowing a >language< isn't >knowing computer science< 23:26:32 ehird`: there's perhaps some value in learning java 23:26:37 lament: nooo 23:26:38 If you're going to do something like LOLCODE, you need more than language experience 23:26:44 ehird`: if only to see what good intentions lead to :) 23:26:50 lament: It does depend upon intentions. 23:26:58 lament: it has potential; but its crippling parts make it a letdown even for a learning language 23:27:09 If your intention is to see the details of how not to do a language, then Java's got some good examples. 23:27:14 ehird`: i'm not saying it's good. i'm saying there's value in learning it. 23:27:19 not that i don't hate java, i do, but why do you ppl hate it so much? :P 23:27:27 i hate it just a bit 23:27:29 oklopol: we're languageologists :) 23:27:36 C, Haskell, Scheme, and Ruby are my preferred languages 23:27:48 idiomology 23:28:01 I prefer C, C++, Tcl, and a tiny hint of Zsh scripting. 23:28:09 the former for low-level stuff... like implementing other languages ;) Haskell for writing elegant, large software, Scheme for elegant, small hacks, and Ruby for general scripts like esolang implementation 23:28:15 Although I'm thinking about doing Haskell and Scheme. 23:28:24 C++ is an abomination. 23:28:32 Tcl's type system makes me weep. 23:28:34 nooo not c++ 23:28:39 tcl has a type system? 23:28:41 Some of C++'s features are abominations, yes. 23:28:41 i thought it didn't 23:28:44 ehird`: Tcl hs a type system? 23:28:44 lament: barely 23:28:49 *has 23:28:52 lament: It's very weakly typed. 23:28:58 i thought tcl was all strings 23:29:01 Nope. 23:29:02 "everything's a string.. or a command. and strings are sort of commands. And also we're just going to let you do ANYTHING with all of this" 23:29:08 More lists, actually. 23:29:11 Also, the syntax is shell-script-esque and I don't like it. 23:29:29 "I don't like syntax" is never a very strong argument :) 23:29:35 The two overlapping target markets for Tcl are filled by Ruby and Zsh for me 23:30:00 -!- lament has set topic: The international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/ | LOLCATS. 23:30:02 Tcl's a bit of an acquired taste, though. . . 23:30:33 | LOLCATS? 23:30:35 no no no no no 23:30:39 lolcats!! http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/suwwender1.jpg 23:30:52 -!- ehird` has set topic: The international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/ | LOLCODE is not an esolang. 23:30:54 that's bettar 23:31:01 perfect 23:31:15 hrm, you're right, not quite 23:31:16 now get SimonRC out of #LOLCODE and we'll be perfect :) 23:31:19 LOLCODE is barely worthy of the tile "language", IMO. 23:31:22 -!- ehird` has set topic: The international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/ | LOLCODE is not an esolang or any other form of language that mat. 23:31:25 ters. 23:31:54 aarcane: and you out of here, presumably? 23:31:55 ehm.. speaking of SimonRC, does anyone know a BRAINFUCK apache module ? 23:31:57 lolcode is no lolling matter 23:32:06 aarcane: ........ 23:32:07 mod_bf. 23:32:11 (n00b) 23:32:14 lament, I'm here to learn an esoteric language, not because of LOLCODE :) 23:32:21 aarcane: you don't learn esolangs 23:32:23 you use them 23:32:26 aarcane: just write it in mod_[non esoteric language] 23:32:26 aarcane: Modbf. Already suggested it. 23:32:42 ehird`, someone linked me to it earlier, but it claims to only work for Apache 1.3, and needs to be compiled in. 23:32:47 Ah. 23:32:59 oerjan: ping 23:32:59 Write it in mod_php or mod_perl or some-such. 23:33:19 manual pinging is so much fun :=) 23:33:20 Or just write it in terms of C, and do CGI. 23:33:53 pong 23:33:56 fizzie: ping 23:33:57 hihi 23:33:59 -!- lament has set topic: The international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/. 23:34:01 :> 23:34:27 it's like ringing a random doorbell and running like crazy 23:34:42 ./part is not a part of my repertoire though 23:34:52 oerjan: ping {{interp!}} 23:35:11 ehird`: source omg.bfm 23:35:16 omg.bfm: 23:35:21 source ^outs.bfm 23:35:24 source ^stdcons.bfm 23:35:28 -!- W|cked has joined. 23:35:35 string omg! "OMG! PING!" 23:35:38 outs omg!end 23:35:39 ^D 23:35:45 bfm? 23:35:51 PEBBLE. 23:35:53 that syntax is odd. ;P 23:35:54 PEBBLE? 23:36:10 I've kept the .bfm file extension out of nostalgia. . . 23:36:15 -!- irbdavid has joined. 23:36:21 PEBBLE: Practical Esoteric Brainfuck-Based Language, Eh? 23:36:22 PEBBLE? 23:36:25 ... 23:36:29 How is it brainfuck based 23:36:37 It compiles to Brainfuck. 23:36:46 http://www.google.com/search?q=Practical%20Esoteric%20Brainfuck-Based%20Language,%20Eh? you just made that up, on the spot. 23:36:56 No, the name change was recent. 23:37:08 http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pebble-1.0-preview.tar.bz2 23:37:18 I've been working on it for the better part of a year now. 23:37:25 maybe i'll write the RE interp in it 23:37:44 I've already written an incredibly fast Brainfuck compiler in it. . . 23:37:53 interp-->PEBBLE->that compiler-->:D 23:38:05 i'm so gonna cred it! 23:38:06 ewwww 23:38:07 tcl 23:38:25 It works. 23:38:26 well... i guess i should cred it's speed 23:38:50 oklopol: The Brainfuck compiler: http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pfuck-1.0.tar.bz2 23:39:03 To build: make PEBBLE=path-to-pebble-here 23:39:29 argh! i cannot find a command to unescape characters in perl strings 23:39:41 what did i say :) 23:40:10 $a=5; ==> "$a"="5" ==== LOL 23:40:23 lack of sleep is making me delerious 23:40:27 cool 23:40:29 tell 23:40:34 everything 23:41:10 ehird`: Thoughts, beyond "Eeew, Tcl"? 23:41:30 oklopol has a sleep experimentation fetish 23:41:46 i have a lot of fetishes. 23:41:52 if that's your definition 23:41:55 :) 23:42:16 ehird`: oh gods I have created you as a monster in my own image 23:43:36 I think he's busy shaking his head at my compiler. :p 23:45:29 it must be impossible because the perl faq has the question and doesn't answer it. 23:46:06 *impossible in a simple way 23:47:04 -!- irbdavid has left (?). 23:47:42 oerjan: what exactly is unescaping? 23:47:53 i wonder if i ever denoobify 23:48:01 turning \n and the like into the characters they represent 23:48:39 that's \\n right? you meant $ or what? 23:48:46 if I want to run brainfuck as CGI, I need a shebang at the head of the file. but does brainfuck support a shebang ? 23:49:12 something like that. "\\n" -> "\n" i guess 23:49:25 aarcane: yes. 23:49:58 oerjan: i meant what was your problem 23:50:10 perl has a php like raw string thing right? 23:50:16 << stuff 23:50:19 ASD; 23:50:24 i don't know php 23:50:36 i explained it pretty well just now :=) 23:50:38 aarcane: Things like a shebang are comments in Brainfuck. 23:50:46 the problem is that the string is not in the source 23:50:53 oh 23:50:56 it is part of the input 23:51:29 perl actually evaluates strings runtime 8| 23:51:30 oh 23:51:33 i'm an idiot 23:51:36 of course it does 23:51:48 esoteric interpreters should be esoteric, use some self modifying code 23:52:28 my php thue interpreter had that same problem, couldn't solve it, so i just prohibited the use of $'s in the string :< 23:52:52 you could of course wrap strings into your own type 23:52:58 that sounds like fun 23:53:30 perl does not evaluate strings unless you give them to eval. 23:53:35 oh 23:53:39 oklopol: I think that sort of multi-line string with <<< is called a "here document" and originated in shell 23:54:03 oerjan: then what is the problem? 23:54:06 it does however have escape characters and interpolation 23:54:09 SimonRC: i believe you 23:54:22 erm, ok 23:54:49 the problem is that ehird`'s language uses escape characters like perl and i was hoping to use perl's mechanism for handling them. 23:55:07 oerjan: just handle \t\n etc 23:55:11 and \c -> c 23:55:13 simple enough 23:55:29 Pikhq: it's a nice interp 23:55:33 SimonRC: i'm not sure what you meant, that's all, i don't know unix 23:55:45 ehird`: It's not just an interpreter. . . 23:55:49 and compiler, etc 23:55:53 Ah. 23:56:04 i'm going to steal some ideas from it :) 23:56:18 ive always wondered why stack-based is the most popular way to implement compilers 23:56:19 If you do that with code, just be sure to use the GPL. . . 23:56:24 no, not code 23:56:28 i don't use tcl 23:56:34 .. i don't think of local vars as a stack 23:56:39 i think of it as a mapping 23:56:44 so i'd use e.g. bf's tape 23:56:48 The stack's only needed for the optimization pass. 23:56:56 i was commenting generally 23:57:00 Ah. 23:57:24 ok, 3-stage language writing process: 23:57:31 write optimizing bf->c compiler 23:57:40 write lang->bf compiler in whatever language 23:57:46 write lang->bf compiler in lang 23:57:50 -!- crathman has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]"). 23:57:56 No, I had a 2-stage process. 23:57:57 use whatever-language lang->bf compiler to compile self-hosted one to BF 23:58:04 Write lang->BF compiler. 23:58:04 then use bf->c to compile the result into C 23:58:11 i mean what i'm going to do 23:58:15 Ah. 23:58:25 Well, you're pretty close to my steps, at least. . . 23:58:27 it'll need some extra stuff - i need an unlimited tape, i expect 23:58:50 Except that the first stage was written in a different language, and not meant to be put towards PEBBLE. 23:59:20 . . . And it was only ported to give me a really good, large program for testing the compiler against. 23:59:37 is the selfhosted compiler avail anywhere? 2007-05-30: 00:00:44 * ehird` forgets about making the compiler optimized for now 00:01:04 are any of you "kopaka649" on digg? 00:01:19 'cause he is mentioning the Wiki and is at +1 digs ATM 00:01:32 basically i'm watching you people do stuff and try to feel like i'm doing something as well... perhaps a little futurama would help -> 00:01:42 i am become digg, waster of time 00:02:32 * ehird` wonders what type to make the unlimitedtape 00:02:34 long? 00:02:46 LONGTAPE IS LOOOOOONG 00:03:15 * SimonRC was kicked from #esoteric [kicked: "No LOLCODE!"] 00:03:49 i just realized Uberman is like the coolest name ever 00:04:56 I assumed that it had the literal German meaning: Uber + man, rather than being someone's name, initially 00:05:34 bf.c:11: error: ‘c’ undeclared (first use in this function) 00:05:35 \"Uberman 00:05:36 wtf 00:05:38 i did declare it 00:05:58 SimonRC: that's what it is, isn't it? 00:06:01 oh 00:06:02 right 00:06:48 bsmntbombdood: which? 00:06:59 uber+man 00:07:22 ehird`: Hrm? What self-hosting compiler? 00:09:32 bsmntbombdood: yes 00:09:48 But it turned out be someone's name 00:09:53 it is? 00:10:28 Pikhq: In your language. 00:10:47 http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pfuck-1.0.tar.bz2 00:11:04 make PEBBLE=path-to-pebble 00:11:47 Maybe I am expecting too much of them to think about any compiler stage beyond the fecking parser 00:11:57 SimonRC: Maybe. 00:12:16 LOOK I HAS PARSER! 00:12:37 No, no, no. 00:12:40 HAS PARSER? 00:12:40 WUT IZ TEH SIMANTICS? 00:12:43 PARSE! 00:12:47 Lolcode people are retarded get over it 00:13:04 no, they are amatures 00:13:09 extreremyl so 00:13:37 just shut up about lolcode already 00:13:52 erm, ok 00:13:53 Yeah. . . 00:14:21 good plan 00:14:28 NOOO THEY BE TAKING MY LOLCODE 00:14:36 :-S 00:14:53 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65853 00:14:55 that's too long for a BF compiler! 00:14:58 well. at least it dynamically reallocates the tape 00:15:04 oops 00:15:06 i borked it 00:15:21 ehird`: You've obviously not seen Gregor's Brainfuck compiler. 00:15:37 that's not too long 00:15:40 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65854 00:15:41 there 00:16:07 now - for lang->bf compiler stage one 00:16:21 and it's broken too 00:16:28 is it 00:16:29 you need to allocate tape 00:16:32 i did 00:16:35 i fixed it 00:16:37 see one place above 00:16:43 ehird`: http://esolangs.org/files/brainfuck/impl/egobf-0.7.1.tar.bz2 Now *this* is a long Brainfuck implementation. 00:16:44 http://pastie.textmate.org/65854 00:16:51 oh wait 00:16:53 nevermind 00:17:29 wtfzzor..... my hello world doesn't print 00:18:06 oops 00:18:09 i don't handle loops!! 00:18:13 ehird`: Your tape expansion bit should be inside the compiled code, not in the compiler. 00:18:27 Pikhq: Yes, loops will require that 00:18:31 It's just -- it'll be every > executed 00:18:34 Might be a lot of overhead. 00:18:41 Otherwise, stuff like >,[>,]<[.<] will be broken. 00:19:21 i wonder, if you could tell the os to sigsegv when you overan some memory 00:19:26 probably not 00:19:32 yes, make it a random int 00:19:49 * oerjan gives up 00:19:52 No, even better. . . 00:19:55 oerjan: :( 00:20:02 make the tape be highest in the program's memory, then catch sigsegv and expand the tape then 00:20:21 -!- sekhmet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:20:25 -!- sekhmet has joined. 00:20:30 int tmp=*(int *)NULL; 00:20:39 i just realized i cannot use \1 in the replacement without full fledged eval 00:20:45 There. Instant SIGSEGV. 00:20:59 Pikhq: clearly 00:21:15 hmm 00:21:29 Of course, you could just *send* SIGSEGV. . . It is, after all, a normal signal. 00:21:48 actually, you would just fuck malloc's bookeeping data before you went outside of the allowed memory 00:21:52 so that doesn't work 00:21:52 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65855 00:21:59 OK - now i just have to do loops 00:22:00 not hard 00:22:13 considering i don't need to do any checking 00:22:16 just while () { } 00:22:26 anyway what i did do is at http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/ehird.pl 00:22:41 but as said, it doesn't handle \1 properly 00:23:29 :) 00:23:36 * ehird` pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/65856 00:23:44 expanding-no-checking-infinite-tape-brainfuck-to-c-compiler. 00:24:53 now, let's think how to use the brainfuck tape. 00:24:55 * ehird` ponders 00:25:31 * ehird` ponders things... "use plain BF integers? or add some type headers?" 00:29:25 * oerjan commented out debug statement and added a short header comment 00:30:50 brainfuck-to-c-compiler? 00:30:53 how exciting. 00:31:30 indeed it is 00:31:57 i needed it according to certain specs 00:32:04 including overflow warnings, infinite tape etc 00:37:09 -!- ehird` has quit. 00:44:15 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:46:12 I assumed that it had the literal German meaning: Uber + man, rather than being someone's name, initially <<< 1. actually über in german 2. i don't think a name is worse if it's a name 00:46:36 * Pikhq is going to call his system "fucked up". . . 00:46:56 (that, I believe, is the scientific name for "How the hell is that segfaulting?!?") 00:47:16 2:45... 6 h till test \o/ 00:47:25 and this time not something easy like math 00:47:35 i have to do like a speech or something 00:47:37 :\ 00:47:39 you really like pushing it 00:47:51 i will tell you the secret to doing a speech 00:47:56 It's quite simple... 00:48:00 please do 00:48:05 you get very interested in the subject. 00:48:17 * Pikhq goes to drive his middle fingers through the drive platters 00:48:32 enough so that you start monologuing at strangers in pubs about the subject... 00:49:07 you prepare a presentation by giving the speech and thinking at each point "what slide would make this bit clearer" 00:49:12 we did speeches already... everyone else did 1-2 min, a few 5 min, i did 10... and failed :) apparently my ideas weren't good and it's very important to look at the audience. 00:49:18 thereby adding diagrams, equations, examples, etc 00:49:32 now, do all of that in 6hrs 00:49:34 if you don't like the subject you will have problems 00:50:05 well, the subject was basically "improving your surroundings" 00:50:06 *Fuck*. 00:50:08 [1] 7729 segmentation fault sudo emerge -av glibc 00:50:13 i had about a million ideas about it 00:50:47 got the worst grade 00:51:26 i admit my ideas might not interest most people 00:51:30 Pikhq: not today thanks 00:51:33 and i did not once look at the audience 00:51:55 but otherwise it was great 00:52:15 okay, sleep now, i'll have to wake up in 3 hours and make the german essay 00:52:30 but i won't, i'll sleep till 10 and fail the course \o/ 00:52:32 great 00:52:34 -----------> 00:52:52 my sleepyness has turned into delerium and slight drowsyness and euphoria 00:54:31 bsmntbombdood: good luck 00:54:34 when did you start? 00:55:04 tonight is my 3rd night 00:56:54 so, saturday i started 02:54:56 -!- Pikhq has quit ("Leaving."). 03:17:06 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:28:32 -!- CakeProphet_ has joined. 03:30:19 -!- Sgeo has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:30:20 -!- CakeProphet has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:30:20 -!- oklopol has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:30:31 -!- CakeProphet_ has changed nick to CakeProphet. 03:38:10 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Killed by sagan.freenode.net (Nick collision)). 03:38:12 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:38:12 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 03:38:12 -!- oklopol has joined. 03:38:42 -!- CakeProphet_ has joined. 03:46:52 -!- CakeProphet has quit (No route to host). 03:49:12 -!- oklopol has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:49:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:49:35 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:49:35 -!- oklopol has joined. 03:56:31 -!- oklopol has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:56:31 -!- Sgeo has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:59:06 -!- oklopol has joined. 03:59:34 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:04:07 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 04:05:31 -!- Pikhq has joined. 04:21:12 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:03:58 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:08:52 -!- Pikhq has quit ("Leaving."). 05:11:12 -!- Pikhq has joined. 05:31:44 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 07:33:32 * bsmntbombdood isn't tired at all, suprisingly 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:56:26 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 09:11:54 hmm... i wonder if "import Std ! Graphics ! Line Kthx;" is a good syntax for importing Line :P 09:12:52 i am greatly traumatized now that i've learned that natalie portman has a finite erdos number 09:12:53 oklopol, which language ? 09:12:56 I need something to tell it the line is ending, because i want import to abide by the same rules as others 09:12:58 oklotalk 09:12:59 :) 09:13:27 hrrm 09:13:48 import Std ! Graphics ! Line as Line; will work fine though 09:14:18 Kthx is a good terminator, but you shouldn't terminate with ; unless you want to terminate with ; always. \n is usually a pretty safe terminator 09:14:19 "import" and "as" are just primitive functions <3 09:14:37 ; terminates if termination is necessary 09:15:03 i do not want to rely on ws, since i'm simultaneously designing an ide, and it... does things :) 09:16:21 ; terminates the line, but no one tells that to import, so import is left waiting for more submodules to come 09:17:42 actually, \n will probably be one way to end lines, since i reckon haskell uses both and it's a kinda good language 09:17:56 but i don't know how exactly it does that 09:18:01 prolly easy once i think about it 09:18:51 ah 09:19:35 "import Std!Graphich as Public" or something might be a good way to "import *" 09:19:47 *cs 09:46:02 -!- aarcane has changed nick to iamchrist. 09:46:12 -!- iamchrist has changed nick to aarcane. 09:55:39 -!- aarcane has changed nick to iamchrist. 09:56:29 -!- iamchrist has changed nick to aarcane. 10:02:30 -!- aarcane has changed nick to not_root. 10:02:43 -!- not_root has changed nick to root________. 10:03:07 -!- root________ has changed nick to aarcane. 10:38:11 -!- iamchrist has joined. 10:39:32 -!- aarcane has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:48:17 -!- iamchrist has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:48:45 -!- iamchrist has joined. 11:09:31 -!- aarcane_ has joined. 11:18:29 -!- aarcane_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:22:43 -!- ihope has joined. 11:25:33 -!- iamchrist has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:25:50 -!- iamchrist has joined. 11:31:36 -!- aarcane_ has joined. 11:47:09 -!- iamchrist has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:13:24 -!- aarcane_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:13:42 -!- aarcane has joined. 13:11:15 -!- jix_ has joined. 14:02:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:56:50 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 15:02:11 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:16:23 -!- mitsuhiko has joined. 15:21:47 * Pikhq wants a death mode for Brainfuck. <<< on it! 15:44:06 okay, deadfuck is ready 15:44:44 deadfuck is also a brilliant piece from gorgasm, i recommend you listen to it 15:48:35 i'm pretty sure it's not tc, since i can't imagine what you can do with it... and there was an even worse deathmode that was quite similar, but i think it's proven non tc 15:49:52 basically, normal bitchanger, but you have to allocate each cell with X before you can do anything with it other than move over it 15:50:23 also, every time you allocate a cell at index n, you render all other cells divisible by n unallocatable 15:50:39 i mean, all other cells whose index is divisible by n 15:52:22 you get a nice finite memory bitchanger of n bits with ">{n} @{n} <{n}" 15:52:30 but dunno if it's tc 16:02:00 -!- crathman has joined. 17:25:37 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 17:34:04 -!- ihope has joined. 17:35:08 -!- ihope has quit (Client Quit). 17:56:54 [-] 17:57:00 -!- mitsuhiko has left (?). 18:12:27 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:22:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:31:54 Say, would anyone here know of a good guide for learning x86 assembly? 20:33:43 I need to learn a new esolang. ;) 21:12:42 i overslept by 7 hours this morning :( 21:23:57 my mom said she tried to wake me up and i (autonomously) told her i was stopping my sleep experiment 21:24:37 well, it's good you're still alive. 21:24:55 yeah, i'm stopping now 21:25:39 if my body can posses me to speak without my brain involved, i think it's pretty desperate 21:29:39 don't confuse your brain with your consciousness. 21:30:06 Consciousness is useful; however it tends to DRAMATICALLY overestimate its own importance 21:30:26 to the extent that people often think it's all they have 21:30:55 ok, if my brain can posses me to speak without _me_ involved 21:31:41 again, don't confuse "you" with your consciousness 21:31:55 "you" comprise much more than that 21:33:22 most of the things you do are done unconsciously 21:33:36 it's not me doing them 21:33:38 consciousness is a fairly limited tool 21:33:41 no, it is you 21:33:54 me is my consciousness 21:34:06 my unconsious is part of my body 21:34:17 you have a very strange notion of identity 21:35:23 i mean self-identity 21:35:33 you don't think your body is part of you? 21:36:16 sometimes i feel that way too. 21:36:25 sort of 21:36:39 i don't know, perhaps i'm still fucked up right now 21:37:08 oerjan: you mean like bsmntbombdood ? 21:50:14 like my body has a mind of its own and isn't me. 21:50:33 -!- red_herring has left (?). 21:51:08 i mean, the idea that your unconscious is you is basically dependent on defining you as the opposite of the outside world. 21:51:49 oerjan: do you define others as excluding their bodies? 21:51:53 i would assume not 21:52:27 my body _belongs_ to me, but whether it _is_ me is something else entirely. 21:52:47 and i see no problem with thinking that way of others. 21:52:51 well, consciousness is the part doing the thinking, so its a bit biased 21:53:05 in particular, as i said, it tends to overestimate its own importance 21:53:34 i don't think that is the same. 21:53:44 which could be really bad, but thankfully the rest of the mind just ignores it most of the time 21:54:01 consciousness is not a very effective system; for one, it's really, really slow 21:54:06 i mean my experience contains several parts. the outside world, my body, my unconscious and my conscious. 21:54:25 why should all except the outside world be considered a unit? 21:54:55 it's not a unit. it has parts. 21:55:23 but why should they be referred to by the word "me"? 21:55:52 practical reasons as a result of interaction with other people 21:55:54 for all i know the unconscious could be just as large as the outside world, and have parts in common with other people. 21:56:08 i.e. the collective unconscious idea 21:57:01 and if you try to determine which part of that is _me_ then you end up looking at which parts are closest to my consciousness. 21:57:38 so the conscious then becomes if not all of me then still the part defining what is me. 21:58:30 i'm not sure if this is relevant 21:58:42 on the other hand you _could_ use the body as the reference point. 21:59:15 -!- jix_ has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:00:01 and some religions define the soul to be the real center, and distinct again from consciousness. 22:00:47 all i am saying is there are several options for defining what "me" is. 22:01:09 sure, but i think mine is the most pragmatic 22:01:23 i'm not interested in philosophy or religion 22:01:24 it is the one that works best for other people than me. 22:01:51 where 'pragmatic' means more or less 'suitable for human interaction' 22:02:26 human interaction is overrated 22:02:41 if you hit me, and claim being unconscious at the time, well, YOU still hit me. 22:03:18 human interaction is hard to overrate. 22:03:41 most of the higher mental functions were designed to accommodate it. 22:03:51 well, 'evolved' 22:03:52 well i am responsible for it. but then so would i be if you were harmed by some item i own. 22:04:10 oerjan: no, i'm saying "you hit me" 22:04:18 oerjan: would you really dispute that? 22:04:24 "It wasn't me, it was my arm"? 22:04:34 i am saying that it is merely a matter of definition of "me" 22:05:43 now say if i faint and fall onto you from a balcony. 22:06:33 right. 22:06:47 you just said "i faint and fall" 22:06:54 in that case my responsibility would not necessarily be larger than if something else had fallen onto you that i owned. 22:07:02 i don't care about responsibility. 22:07:10 i am restricted to using the definitions in English. 22:07:38 you just used "i" to include your body. 22:07:56 so we agree and shouldn't argue anymore :) 22:08:06 i suppose so. 22:08:23 obviously you can make a big philosophical issue out of this, and many people do 22:08:30 i just don't really see a point 22:10:24 just wait until you find yourself strongly disagreeing with your body :) 22:10:50 but then anyone who has been ill probably has experienced that 22:13:05 would you disagree that the definition that includes the unconscious and the body is the most suited for human interaction? 22:13:40 for _most_ human interaction. 22:13:57 sure. 22:14:10 that's why it's the one built into the language - language being a tool for human interaction. 22:16:05 in any case i just don't see any reason to single out the consciousness 22:16:37 there's a lot of stuff going on in the mind, consciousness is a part of it, but it's only a small part and only useful in certain situations 22:17:06 The development of The Language That Shall Not Be Named is progressing at am amazing rate. Never before has an esolang had so much input by so many people in so short a time. 22:17:16 It will be the ADA of esolangs. 22:17:32 SimonRC: what? 22:17:39 * lament screams LOLCODE and everybody shudders 22:17:41 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 22:17:44 !! 22:17:53 oh that 22:18:06 SimonRC: why are you bothered so 22:18:10 The group are going to produce more text than any one designer could 22:18:13 I am not 22:18:16 I am fascinated 22:18:32 no, correction 22:18:40 I will be the PL/1 of esolangs. 22:18:56 * SimonRC polls the asynchronous toastie. 22:22:12 yummy 22:28:14 Whee! http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/ehird.py 22:28:34 Now if just ehird was here... 23:10:29 IM IN UR MEETIN, BLOATIN UR LANGAGE! 2007-05-31: 00:01:52 -!- crathman has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]"). 01:41:30 so, after 15 mins discussing conditional keywords, we realise that we haven't decided on the significance of line-breaks 01:41:42 we vote ... and get a 4-4 tie 01:46:37 You know you're bored when you get an executable in 324 bytes. . . 01:47:17 http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html And you're really bored when you do this. 01:50:39 ooh, now almost half-an-hour making a decision that one person could have made in 2 minutes 01:51:13 on syntax, i presume. 01:52:05 lololol 01:52:15 * SimonRC howls with laughter at the latest suggestions 01:52:40 it comes to 48 possible forms of the simple two-armed conditional 01:54:03 Damn, that's dumb. 01:54:31 New rule: "Your language fails as an esolang when it's less esoteric than x86 assembly". 01:54:46 we just voted in a 72-variation one 01:55:13 exponential growth, yay! 01:55:16 "IZ [?] [(.|\n) YARLY] (.|\n) (.|\n) [NOWAI (.|\n) ] KTHX" 01:55:31 KHAN! 02:09:10 have you reached 150 yet? :) 02:09:59 no, the vote was final for the moment 02:11:23 45 bytes, wow 02:11:44 ISTR one of us diong this before 02:12:15 121 02:12:44 Of course, I'm doing "Hello, world", which is a bit less trivial. 02:12:50 SimonRC: What, the "really small asm program"? 02:13:22 Um, yeah. That website, I think, was done by one of us. 02:13:22 yes 02:13:33 there was a micro-esolang, too 02:19:58 Mmkay, now I'm down to 101 bytes. . . 02:20:11 cool 02:21:37 what program are you writing? 02:21:39 Now I'm down to segfault bytes. 02:21:46 Just a simple "Hello, world". 02:22:00 have you done the elf header overlapping stuff yet? 02:22:22 I can't see a way to actually fit my code *inside* the elf header. 02:23:53 Hmm. . . I wonder how many bytes a jmp call would take. 02:23:59 can't you overlap the two headers though? 02:24:32 *That* much I have done. 02:24:53 His second suggested overlap is broken, though. 02:27:23 maybe put the first part of the program inside the elf header and jmp to the rest? 02:28:08 I was thinking that. 02:29:24 The problem is, I can't quite figure out a) how many bytes are being used there b) how many bytes I have to actually work with. 02:29:36 or write "hi world" instead and put the data there 02:29:55 Now, that's a thought. . . 02:30:13 he says there's nine bytes of padding 02:30:16 Hmm. 9 bytes. 02:30:18 Yeah. 02:30:38 Now, just to figure out how many bytes my code is actually *using*. 02:30:51 Preferably per instruction. 02:31:01 This'd be easier if I hadn't learned assembly earlier today. 02:31:23 indeed 02:31:33 asm is possibly the most usefull esolang 02:33:12 over, after 4h25 or so 02:33:15 sigh 02:33:23 Mmkay. Got it down to 87, thanks to the idea of putting the data in the header. 02:33:36 in that time, we did what one man could do in 20 minutes 02:33:56 what? 02:34:44 Let's see if I can get a shorter way to exit. . . 02:34:57 segfault 02:35:15 True. 02:35:31 25 minutes to decide on ADD, TIEMZ, NURF, and OVAR 02:35:40 Segfaulting grants 79 bytes. 02:35:52 just make the spec say the program must print "segfault" and exit 02:36:21 Well, if *that* is all I'm going to do, all I need is the ELF header. 02:36:40 segfault messages are non standard methinks 02:39:00 "Wadler later formulated a law to describe how effort was allotted to various topics: semantics is discussed half as much as syntax, syntax is discussed half as much as lexical syntax, and lexical syntax is discussed half as much as the syntax of comments. 02:39:32 (from A History of Haskell) 02:39:41 at the end we just about managed to squeeze in a vote saying that we would have only int math initially 02:39:59 though no-one bothered to say what *width* of integer 02:40:58 NURF and OVAR? 02:42:04 which of course leads to the obvious question: have you decided on comment syntax? 02:42:20 make it 2**16 bits wide 02:42:39 BTW to end-of-line 02:42:42 bsmntbombdood: heh 02:43:18 only 2048 words 02:43:22 i suggest ALSO as comment continuation :) 02:43:40 or whatever the correct spelling is. 02:44:26 zzzzzz 02:44:49 bsmntbombdood: I get the feeling his last header is broken. 02:45:43 Which, of course, it is. 02:47:25 i wonder just how slow 2**16 bit arithmatic would be 02:57:09 With a bit more munging, I was able to get "Hello world\n" to fit in the ELF header. 02:58:39 Hmm. 02:58:47 I wonder what the a.out specs look like. 03:37:52 Mmkay. If this *worked* the way I thought, I'd have a damned small program by now. 03:39:44 . . . Oh. 03:39:53 I, uh, don't have a.out support in-kernel. 03:40:28 . . . 03:47:30 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 03:49:18 consider a number system in base 2i 03:49:30 i think you can represent any complex number in it 03:49:40 with 4 symbols 03:50:03 47 (base 10) = 30103 (base 2i) 03:50:58 it's base -4 with a twist 03:51:08 lol 03:52:20 *sigh* 03:52:23 base -4 can't do complexes 03:53:28 -i = 0.2 03:53:29 Would anyone here happen to know the intimacies of the Linux a.out format well enough to tell me whether or not I'm being an idiot? 03:53:59 i = 10.2 03:54:07 Pikhq: Intimacies? No. Enough to tell me whether you're being an idiot? Maybe. 03:54:18 GregorR-L: Mmkay. 03:54:42 http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/hello-2.asm 03:55:17 I probably am doing something really stupid, like "trying to ignore the assembler's nice little 'header' and such". 03:55:29 I don't, however, speak ASM very well. 03:55:37 oerjan: yep 03:55:37 . . . Well, that is exactly what I *am* doing stupid, probably. 03:55:41 0,1,2,3,130,... 03:55:49 GregorR-L: Nor do I; I just learned it *today*. 03:55:58 lawlercoptah 03:56:59 oh darn, knuth though of it first 03:57:00 * Pikhq would *prefer* being able to do this 'uber-tiny Hello, World' thing using a.out, just because the header is much, much smaller. 03:57:02 131,132,133,120,...,110,...,100,... 03:57:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quater-imaginary_base 03:57:03 :( 03:57:51 I may just have to stick with my psuedo-ELF version. 03:58:06 and when he was in high school no less 03:58:37 oerjan: So what? I've written a few heaps of code in high school. :p 04:02:14 For my "Why the *hell* did you do this", working version: http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/hello.asm 04:02:29 87 bytes of "Hello, world". 04:06:00 Now make it a BF interpreter. 04:06:33 I'll get around to that later. 04:06:39 good idea 04:06:41 I still need to beat the dead horse. :p 04:14:12 or just a utm 04:27:38 * oerjan wonders if anyone ever used the quater-imaginary base seriously in computers 04:29:09 Why would you use it instead of 2 floats? 04:31:00 maybe you could do multiplication quickly or something 04:31:18 exact arithmetic, anyhow 04:31:51 maybe for the same reason no one uses exact reals 04:33:58 Uh, hi. I'd like to introduce you to the mpz_t type. 04:34:35 that's integers 04:36:06 i see one example: "Simplified optical complex multiplication using quater-imaginary number representation." 04:36:23 * GregorR-L 's head explodes. 04:36:37 optical multiplication 04:38:51 "But it takes a true genius (No offence Sid), to invent something as wacky as a Quater Imaginary Base Number System !" 04:39:16 thus we conclude that our bsmntbombdood is a genius too :) 04:39:51 heh 04:40:03 -!- calamari has joined. 04:41:50 anyway i'm off to bed 04:41:59 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 04:53:25 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 04:55:43 -!- calamari has joined. 04:59:58 bsmntbombdood: Fine. Here's something for you. 05:00:31 struct real_t {mpz_t integer, fractional}; 05:01:29 Q != R 05:01:58 What? That can represent all reals that fit in RAM. 05:02:16 Uhh, no. 05:02:20 Ohwait 05:02:26 Uhh, still no. 05:02:27 pi 05:02:28 e 05:02:30 sqrt(2) 05:02:36 Those don't fit in RAM. 05:02:43 touche 05:02:46 Unless you've got a Turing macine. 05:02:48 Touché indeed. 05:03:06 unicode bad 05:03:12 touch\'e 05:03:18 tex good 05:03:20 -!- GregorR has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:03:20 -!- sp3tt has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:03:32 Unicode good. 05:03:36 Tex also good. 05:04:20 But the Unicode "touché" is *IRC* good. 05:04:37 touch\'e is only \tex good. 05:04:58 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 05:05:34 BTW, I think "touché" renders properly in recent Tex builds, anyways. ;) 05:14:35 -!- GregorR has joined. 05:14:35 -!- sp3tt has joined. 05:19:54 -!- sp3tt has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:19:54 -!- GregorR has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:43:01 hmm, by representing strings as trees you get constant time concatenation and O(log n) time indexing 05:49:02 -!- GregorR has joined. 05:49:02 -!- sp3tt has joined. 05:54:15 -!- sp3tt has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:54:15 -!- GregorR has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:55:47 -!- GregorR has joined. 05:55:47 -!- sp3tt has joined. 05:59:39 Mmkay, I'm thinking that my little "Hello, world" program is the smallest asm one that will run on a 2.6 kernel. 06:01:35 how long? 06:09:40 80 bytes. 06:09:53 There's a 59 byte one, but it won't run on my system. 06:12:40 what makes you think it runs on others then? 06:14:42 Need to try it. 06:15:46 Runs on Gregor's box and Leibniz. 06:15:57 oh 06:16:12 Linux gdeskgor 2.6.17-14mdv #1 SMP Wed May 9 21:11:43 MDT 2007 i686 Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.80GHz GNU/Linux 06:16:24 Linux leibniz 2.6.8-3-386 #1 Thu Sep 7 05:39:52 UTC 2006 i686 GNU/Linux 06:16:31 Notice something in common there? 06:22:29 Other than i686 GNU/Linux? No, not really. 06:24:16 What, the "it runs on those"? 06:24:32 . . . Don't expect coherency from me. 06:24:45 Please, don't. I've been doing a whee bit too much x86. 07:13:41 -!- calamari has joined. 07:16:35 -!- calamari has quit (Client Quit). 07:22:39 -!- calamari has joined. 07:38:16 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:44:24 -!- jix_ has joined. 10:02:11 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 10:42:44 -!- iamchrist has joined. 10:43:51 -!- pb_ee1 has joined. 10:47:54 -!- pb_ee1 has left (?). 10:58:22 -!- aarcane has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:06:18 -!- aarcane_ has joined. 11:07:43 -!- iamchrist has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:09:28 -!- iamchrist has joined. 11:24:44 -!- aarcane_ has quit (Connection timed out). 12:09:14 -!- jix_ has quit ("CommandQ"). 12:57:59 -!- sebbu has joined. 13:31:25 -!- jix_ has joined. 14:05:24 fucking python 15:36:40 -!- crathman has joined. 16:13:07 oklopol: is that a new sexual deviancy? 16:13:53 -!- crathman has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:14:15 oh dear, repelled him 16:23:27 no, that's my little bother. 16:23:41 *brother 16:23:42 though 16:23:53 he has a scoping disorder. 16:23:58 real bad one 17:20:44 -!- sp3tt_ has joined. 17:21:24 -!- sp3tt_ has left (?). 17:37:45 oklopol: scoping? 17:38:01 also, I am sure I have seen him elsenet... 18:07:02 yes exactly, it's very hard :< 18:08:11 even harder trying to explain a problem trying to keep it a double entendre 18:08:32 i now have my constants defined in every function. 18:08:48 how should i do it? 18:29:25 * SimonRC feels confused 18:51:45 :P 18:52:07 python has neither lexical nor dynamical scoping 18:52:37 so... how do i make a global i don't have to explicitly "include" in every function with "global" 18:52:39 -!- W|cked has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:10:31 oklopol: Use Tcl. 19:11:04 Globals are either prefixed with ::, or included in your function's namespace with "global" or "upvar". 19:24:35 :: okay 19:32:10 * Pikhq is too much of a Tcler for his own good 19:43:38 some things are really hard to phrase 19:49:48 I know 19:50:36 I occasionally end up expressing things with explicit qualifiers 19:50:43 *quantifiers 20:07:48 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:09:54 * SimonRC boggles at the number of letters in "haemmorrhage". 20:10:08 what's wrong with just "hemorage"? 20:10:15 :-P 20:10:37 what's wrong with just "bogles"? 20:10:57 what's wrong with just ""? 20:11:17 oerjan: "bogles" would be prnounces differently 20:11:24 *pronounced 20:12:01 actually it is just haemorrhage. 20:12:14 erm, oops, yes 20:13:10 ae is obviously from a greek diphthong, spelling latinized. 20:14:18 hemorrhage is fine. 20:14:57 nah, "hæmorrhage". 20:15:14 wikipedia says AE:e, BE:ae 20:15:34 "AE"? "BE"? 20:15:45 american/british 20:15:51 ok 20:16:47 anyway norwegian does not seem to have that word but we spell another word "hemoroider" 20:17:05 (google says about equally with or without double r) 20:17:33 we have a policy of simplifying spellings 20:17:42 English is usually the best language for technical vocab. 20:18:02 English has a policy of keeping the original language's spelling. 20:18:04 hehehe 20:18:14 "best"? 20:18:22 especially in words like "jalapeno" 20:18:31 English has a hell of a lot of technical vocabulary. . . 20:18:44 most computer terms, for example 20:18:56 It's also got a very, very confusing system of spelling, simply because it uses the spelling for the original language. 20:19:05 anyway norwegian also seems to be less willing to use excessively technical terms for common medical words 20:19:25 The French, being the closest "foreign" country, naturally hate anything English (linguistically). 20:19:58 Which is kind of ironic, considering that they forced *their* language into ours. 20:20:06 although we are not as fanatical as the icelandic, who translate nearly everything. 20:20:34 "Hallelujiah" "café" "ballet", etc 20:20:55 english is just a gigantic pile of garbage, linguistically. 20:21:01 heheh 20:21:13 it's so complicated, most linguists never bother studying it. 20:21:13 * SimonRC recalls PTerry's remark on that. 20:21:25 the verb declensions are ok 20:21:26 English is ever language. 20:21:29 Every. Single. One. 20:21:41 and we have got rid of fucking noun genders 20:21:46 English has a hell of a lot of technical vocabulary. . . 20:21:46 most computer terms, for example 20:21:48 (there we go. I used 3 different linguistic sources in a single sentence!) 20:21:52 The French, being the closest "foreign" country, naturally hate anything English (linguistically). 20:21:53 Which is kind of ironic, considering that they forced *their* language into ours. 20:21:55 siamese twins? 20:21:59 i heard there is an indian language which considers all english words included in theirs... 20:22:08 I don't *think* so. 20:22:26 Ok, so your hand is male, the fingers are female, the thumb is neuter, and the wrist is female of neuter depending on which word you use. WFT?! 20:22:30 *or 20:23:12 "And then the tsunami pummeled the fjord". There we go. One sentence, 4 languages. 20:23:32 ".. during the typhoon" 20:23:40 SimonRC: it depends on how the word sounds, not on what the thing is. 20:23:57 not in my experience 20:24:06 SimonRC: in the languages i'm familiar with, anyway (spanish, russian, ukrainian, hebrew, portuguese) 20:24:13 french is not that easy. 20:24:23 "... after the cumulonimbus clouds came in, following the Czar." 20:24:53 the germanic languages with genders are not so easy either 20:25:09 in both cases most endings have turned into -e or nothing 20:25:42 while in spanish/russian the endings still can be several vowels, mostly correlated with gender 20:26:01 noice that "came" uses an strong anglo-saxon past tense, whereas "pummelled" uses a weak one. 20:27:36 Even our Germanic roots are muddled. . . I think it's 4 or 5 Germanic languages that contribute to our *early* language. 20:27:40 on the other hand i read somewhere that you can guess most french words by the last letters, but it's a bit more complicated 20:27:42 oerjan: this will probably be eventually followed up with removal of gender from germanic langs 20:27:53 english has already done so 20:28:06 not in our lifetime of course 20:28:11 swedish and danish has collapsed masculine and feminine 20:28:14 in the meantime, just learn spanish instead :) 20:28:30 every natural language will die pretty soon. 20:28:35 Ne, ne, ne! Lernu Esperanton. 20:28:38 the overwhelming majority of words have "regular" gender 20:28:48 oklopol: Languages don't die, they blend. 20:28:56 languages do dei. 20:28:56 die. 20:29:01 yes 20:29:08 the big ones aren't in any danger at teh moment, though. 20:29:11 They 'die' by merging into another language. 20:29:11 they die if no one remembers them anymore. 20:29:16 oklopol: correct 20:29:16 Pikhq: no, often they just die 20:29:25 that is not dying, Pikhq 20:29:33 that's... merging 20:29:33 Pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_death 20:30:05 the majority of languages currently spoken are in immediate danger of death. 20:30:13 it's a serious issue for linguists. 20:30:43 (immediate, as in right now, not in a couple hundred years) 20:30:58 they will merge into english first, prolly, then, hopefully, they all die and ppl start using a _good_ language, an artificially made one. 20:31:00 I stand corrected. 20:31:01 within 1-2 generations 20:31:15 many currently still spoken languages will die 20:31:16 oklopol: that last phrase is an oxmoron 20:31:34 The problem is that no speakable language offers that much over any other, apart from the people who use it. 20:31:47 as i also am an ox moron, you will have to tell me what that is 20:31:54 *oxymoron 20:31:58 STFW 20:32:04 STFWikipedia 20:32:35 hmm.. so? 20:32:44 oklopol: if everybody in the world speaks one language... that will just suck 20:32:49 monocultures are bad 20:32:56 the artificial langs can;t really be much better than any natural ones 20:33:00 perhaps, why not make more than one language? 20:33:04 yes they can. 20:33:08 how? 20:33:10 no, they can't. 20:33:13 natural languages suck :\ 20:33:20 languages are highly evolved tools 20:33:27 (natural languages) 20:33:33 mm 20:33:46 perhaps in a few hundred years spoken languages will give way to visual cybernetically transmitted ones... 20:33:49 just as you can't design an organism better suited for survival that the naturally evolved ones, you can't design a language that's better than the ones we have 20:34:05 the existing stuff is just too good 20:34:07 :) 20:34:09 (unless we somehow find a "natural" telepathy) 20:34:12 i think it sucks 20:34:18 yes, but you're ignorant 20:34:21 hah 20:34:22 you wish 20:34:32 beyond the obviously awkard things, like having 93 different phonemic clicks and 8273 verb declensions, there is not much you can do to make a language better 20:34:47 SimonRC: that's not "awkward", that's "expressive" 20:34:52 lament: I'm going to beg to differ. . . 20:35:11 it mostly comes down to libraries, i.e. vocab, which English is good at 20:35:26 i don't have anything on paper about this yet, so you will have to wait a few years for my arguments. 20:35:34 English is an excellent language. I love it. 20:35:39 I can make an organism which is *much* better than other organisms in certain niches. 20:35:46 Of course I love the other ones too. 20:35:48 If you increase the density, people end up speaking slower by ecxactly the same amount because everything is more fragile 20:36:10 SimonRC: pretty much; nevertheless, it's good for things like poetry 20:36:32 if you make it more logical, you find that many people don't think logically, and that they want to express some compilcated things often and some simple things rarely 20:36:33 SimonRC: a language that doesn't support poetry well is not particularly interesting :) 20:36:55 that last point is of particular note... 20:37:29 english is very expressive thanks mostly to vocab 20:37:34 learning some Set theory, Prolog, and Haskell did far more for me than 4 years of French 20:37:47 SimonRC: how are those things at all related? 20:38:03 well, languages are supposed to offer different views on the world 20:38:04 Esperanto bonas por poezio, mi pensas. 20:38:26 esperanto is terrible simply because of the suffixes :) 20:38:35 not enough variety 20:38:39 At first, I kept getting frustrated by that lack of HoF in English. 20:38:40 Ne, ne, ne. Tre bona! 20:38:42 of course, that's not really an issue 20:38:55 just write unrhymed poetry, like many natural langs do 20:39:05 (japanese) 20:39:13 but small vocab is also an impediment 20:39:15 はい。 20:39:19 Pikhq: ? 20:39:29 you just said an empty line! 20:39:35 No, I said "Hai". 20:39:40 in Japanese? 20:39:48 Not my fault you don't do Unicode. 20:39:49 Yeah. 20:39:54 i have a crappy font 20:40:01 Fixedsys 20:40:15 a.k.a Fixe-days :-P 20:40:27 anyway having many languages is nice :) 20:40:35 Jes. 20:40:39 but not stable 20:40:47 SimonRC: well, no 20:40:55 SimonRC: having many languages is more stable than having one 20:41:08 if you have one, it will break apart into several 20:41:15 SimonRC: The history of the human race would like to come up and tell you about this bit about "always having multiple languages". 20:41:38 I meant it isn't stable *now*. 20:41:44 SimonRC: latin is an excellent example, and it's happening slowly with spanish and english 20:41:47 we seem to be heading for a few dozen 20:42:02 SimonRC: hopefully more 20:42:13 lament: gobal communications may slow down the differentiation 20:42:18 SimonRC: there's a lot of, for example, tiny european languages that coexist with the main language and aren't dying 20:42:24 (catalan and such) 20:42:27 hmm :-S 20:42:30 ah, point 20:42:55 a whole LOT of langs are dying in africa and south america and australia 20:42:59 they will most likely die 20:43:45 i believe there's something like 6000 at the moment and we're heading for 600 very very soon :( 20:43:58 but 600 is still decent 20:44:45 I get the feeling that the number of languages in existence is cyclic. . . 20:45:02 Pikhq: no 20:45:02 We got a ton of languages dying or converging at one point, and later, we get them breaking up. . . 20:45:14 Pikhq: no, globalization makes it smaller 20:45:23 Pikhq: it's been declining for a while 20:45:33 (discovery of america was a biggie there) 20:45:39 Yeah, it *does*, but I can't help but feel that it more changes the intensity of the cycle. 20:46:05 Pikhq: when latin broke apart, the number of parts was much smaller than the number of languages that died as latin expanded 20:46:07 next cycle starts when when the human race disperses into outer space 20:46:10 *when 20:46:30 Pikhq: we used to have many small tribes living pretty much separatly 20:46:40 Pikhq: so, a huge number of languages, each one with only a couple hundred speakers 20:46:48 this is still the situation in some parts of the world 20:46:48 lament: Yeah. The increasing globalisation *changes the intensity* of the cycle. 20:46:58 all these tiny languages will surely die 20:47:10 (outer space though) 20:47:15 no, it changes the basic isolation parameter 20:47:26 You don't disprove my point by proving it; you *really* don't. 20:47:31 Pikhq: you think things like the internet do nothing to decrease the number of languages? 20:47:56 and to "stabilize" existing ones 20:48:01 relatively speaking 20:48:12 lament: Of *course* I do. It's just that that means that when the cycle goes around to *increase* the number of languages, there will be fewer languages at *that* peak than the previous one. 20:48:20 the internet _could_ stabilize a language that was thinly dispersed 20:48:23 spanish, for example, was falling apart steadily 20:48:31 but now the process is slowed down by media and pop culture 20:48:35 in finland it's mostly the less intellectual ones that adapt english into their spoken finnish 20:48:42 as people in spain watch latin american movies, etc 20:48:44 intellectual? 20:48:45 hmm 20:48:57 Although the languages would probably split apart *less* simply because of globalisation, it will still happen. 20:48:57 i doubt each and every word i write. 20:49:02 (especially with the smaller ones) 20:49:33 usually languages split after a big expansion of a single language followed by the collapse of the associated empire 20:49:34 Consider Esperanto. . . And the *class* of languages that have formed around it, the Esperantidons. 20:49:38 it does not change the _intensity_ of the cycle but its balance point 20:49:48 oerjan: Fair enough. 20:50:06 and we don't yet know whether the balance point has shifted so far that it is now 1. 20:50:19 it's "cyclic" in the same death as the "circle of life" is cyclic 20:50:27 it helps to think of languages as living things 20:50:48 they practically are 20:52:23 (thinking of them as species is more accurate but less exciting) 20:52:25 like bacteria perhaps, which also have the ability to merge genetic material 20:52:38 i just removed about a grapeful of my hair 8| 20:53:18 you measure hair by the grapful? 20:53:29 the reason artificial languages can't work is that they'll stop being artificial as they're used 20:53:30 oklopol: that may or may not be a bad thing, dependent on whether you are a good self-hairdresser... 20:53:37 well... it's a big ball 20:53:47 lament: not if that's not allowed. 20:53:52 oklopol: not allowed?? 20:53:56 !! 20:53:57 Language Police? 20:54:00 sure 20:54:04 GregorR and the like. 20:54:07 lament: that's what has happened with several signed languages, i guess 20:54:11 oklopol: what arrangement is you hair in? 20:54:13 oerjan: correct 20:54:19 oerjan: that's a good example actually 20:54:21 lament: A good few artificial languages are just *meant* to be artificial at the start, with the *hope* that they'll become natural. 20:54:21 it's long and all around. 20:54:30 Pikhq: well, the problem is 20:54:30 hm 20:54:36 Pikhq: say you have esperanto, it's nice and regular 20:54:45 Not true, but anyways. 20:54:56 Pikhq: if people actually spoke it, it would become irregular in no time 20:55:03 Pikhq: as i understand, this has already started to happen 20:55:10 this did happen to sign languages 20:55:16 It's also forked into the Esperantidos. . . 20:55:42 (Some, like Ido, are mutually intelligible, so are more like dialects) 20:55:50 someone comes along and decides to add voicing harmony, then they dike out the voicing distingtion on sybilants, then fuck around with it some more, and before you know it, it's and irregular mess 20:56:26 SimonRC: many things happen naturally, without anybody specifically "deciding" to do stuff 20:57:10 you know what I mean 20:57:36 the only way to avoid changing a language is to not use it :) 20:57:51 (case in point: hebrew) 20:57:58 however some language changes probably really started as deliberate in-jokes 20:58:16 Or to make it so delicate that a change will tumble the whole thing down. . . 20:58:18 hebrew was revived after 2K years of beind dead 20:58:34 eek! zombie language! 20:58:35 so it is less "evolved" than other languages 20:58:49 Some sort of esoteric natural language. . . 20:58:58 the people responsible for revival actually made up a whole bunch of words 20:59:04 like 'kettle' 20:59:11 acbg,j. 20:59:13 for things that weren't around 2000 years ago 20:59:18 Pikhq: if you make it too delicate then it will not work in noisy environments 20:59:42 oerjan: You could just as well make the *grammer* far to delicate, instead of the phonemes. 20:59:45 o 20:59:45 o 20:59:45 o 20:59:54 wrong chan. 21:00:07 Pikhq: people will just simplify it then. 21:00:19 this is happening in many languages 21:00:49 Pikhq: but if there is redundancy then there _will_ be possibility for compression 21:00:49 eg latin lost its cases and several verb tenses 21:01:40 Hmm. . . The Malbolge of esoteric languages? 21:01:47 Err. 21:01:47 oerjan: and if there's no redundancy, people will introduce it, because redundancy is useful 21:01:48 Spoken. 21:02:02 although several new tenses were added, so romance languages may actually be more complicated on that point 21:02:11 oerjan: i don't think they are. 21:02:20 oerjan: and spanish is losing some tenses too 21:02:33 well, lost 21:02:37 lament: i just recall someone saying so 21:03:18 it may depend on if you count the compound tenses as well, i guess 21:03:24 *whether 21:04:37 spanish lost future subjunctive 21:04:45 "The future subjunctive is rarely used in modern Spanish and mostly appears in old texts, legal documents, and certain expressions" 21:05:07 (it's a simple tense) 21:06:25 most recent changes in finnish are just that a few complex tenses have died because the majority of finnish ppl don't know how to use them 21:06:28 one of the tenses formed after Latin from merging infinitive with haber, i guess? 21:06:32 not tenses 21:06:36 ...things-. 21:07:37 -!- Trey_ has joined. 21:08:10 -!- Trey_ has changed nick to W|cked. 21:13:48 W|cked: are you one of the language-the-shall-not-be-named devs 21:13:51 ? 21:14:36 (the actually-nothing-wrong-with-it-but-getting-excessive-attention language) 21:20:39 lolcode? 21:20:44 HAI 21:21:02 and no :( 21:28:21 Did you hear about their 2-armed IF? 21:28:32 like an if-else in C 21:28:35 ? 21:29:14 W|cked: Due to various compromises between everyone's different ideas, it comes in 72 different forms, all functionally identical. 21:29:34 I was on the comittee that decided that 21:29:55 Eris a god who gets results. 21:30:25 For what language are we talking about? 21:30:28 lolcode? :x 21:30:53 yes 21:30:59 You're joking right? 21:31:26 no 21:31:36 example? 21:31:38 I'll dig out the description 21:31:45 kk 21:32:00 note that they are not 72 _completely_ different forms, just a form with several independent variations 21:32:05 we voted in the following: "IZ [?] [(.|\n) YARLY] (.|\n) (.|\n) [NOWAI (.|\n) ] KTHX" 21:32:13 2*3*2*2*3 = 72 21:33:29 a lot of that comes from treating . and \n as equivalent. 21:33:39 true 21:33:50 which actually sounds sensible. 21:34:15 we also decided thaat everything is a 1d array, I think 21:34:18 haskell does the same with ; and \n 21:34:24 oerjan: erm, kinda 21:34:36 for the right definition of \n 21:34:49 actually it has some slightly-compilcated rules about turning whitespace into ;{} 21:34:58 ;{} 21:35:08 the grammar is in terms of {}; , not whitespace 21:35:53 without that you get 2*2*1*1*2 = 8 21:36:14 python may also be similar 21:36:33 but simpler 21:36:58 -!- jix_ has quit ("CommandQ"). 21:38:17 what's that YARLY about? 21:38:28 oh, yeah really 21:39:07 -!- iamchrist has changed nick to aarcane. 21:39:39 "noway" is "else if(false)"? 21:39:45 *NOWAI 21:40:26 IZ - YARLY - NOWAI - KTHZ = IF - THEN - ELSE - END, i guess 21:41:00 not _that_ strange, apart from the variations on YARLY 21:41:46 why are we discussing lolcode 21:41:57 * W|cked stammers 21:42:01 hm, in fact that is a bit broken, you can have ? . YARLY 21:42:02 W...ww.wwhat lolcode 21:42:58 SimonRC: you have some kind of unhealthy interest in this language. You keep bringing it up. 21:43:07 maybe 21:43:32 at least edit its esolang page then :) 21:44:29 hard to do when it is still under construction 21:44:33 ICBA 21:44:39 SimonRC: Learn a less odd language, like assembly. 21:45:10 lolcode doesn't seem particularly odd from what i've heard about it 21:45:25 it seems the developers are not knowledgeable enough to introduce non-standard features 21:45:40 (not knowledgeable and not imaginative enough) 21:45:49 Fine. Learn a *more* odd language. 21:45:54 Like PEBBLE. 21:58:23 how do you lot remember who everyone is on this channel? 21:58:31 there are so many here now 21:58:57 well, i'm lament 21:59:02 and i'm pretty sure you're SimonRC 21:59:05 yes 21:59:07 *sigh* 21:59:11 those others, i have no idea 21:59:18 :D 21:59:19 oh, oerjan is oerjan 21:59:36 but I forget things like whether GregorR or RogerTheGreat is the on with the hats. 21:59:44 That would be Gregor. 22:00:07 mst of you blur together a lot for me 22:00:18 i'm the one who has far too many towels. 22:00:30 Even me, Mr "I <3 PEBBLE to much"? 22:00:46 heh 22:01:32 well, do you forget things like that about people outside the net? 22:02:53 gregorR should be easy, we have pictures of him. 22:03:50 rogerthegreat is a bit vague to me too. 22:06:30 i guess information sort of accretes on people until it reaches critical mass 22:06:40 suppose so 22:07:17 oerjan is the gay norwegian farmer 22:07:30 and fizzie is the retired scuba diver with 7 cats 22:07:41 * Pikhq is? 22:08:21 you're just a blur. 22:08:34 Pikhq is the obnoxious 9 year old with plans for world domination. 22:09:27 oh, right. 22:09:34 -_-' 22:09:48 Feeling 'complemented' here. 22:10:36 Lament is the Russian mafia hitman. 22:11:11 people who know that little factoid tend to not live for very long 22:11:35 Fuck. 22:11:48 oerjan: congrats, you just doomed everyone in the channel 22:12:24 oh that's ok, just part of my plans for world domination. besides i had to kill them anyhow since you revealed i was gay. 22:13:04 i have a complete personality assigned to all of you. 22:13:07 i thought that was public knowledge, hence the oerjan.isgay.com website and all that 22:13:21 it just might be biased for those who talk little. 22:13:33 yes 22:13:42 let's just ban all those who talk little 22:14:59 lament... i think of you as a connection between functional and imperative programming... i have no idea where that has come from :) 22:15:02 indeed i had to move out of the closet. it got too full of towels. 22:16:11 plus, i have a who-is-friends-with-whom diagram in my head, i guess deduced from conversations of small groups 22:16:54 I mostly play music and take pictures and do no esoteric programming. 22:17:01 I did, however, take a course with cpressey at one point. 22:17:09 oh, ah, lament is friends with GregorR yet talks about math, GregorR i've mostly seen talking about c++. 22:17:25 (not that cpressey is ever around) 22:17:28 or D, or plof 22:17:30 lament: you have a does-a-lot brand on you. 22:17:43 talks-a-lot maybe 22:17:45 :) 22:17:57 I can't remember which of you is the other one who konws Haskell... 22:18:01 oh, and i put up falsebot which inspired egobot 22:18:02 oerjan: 22:18:04 *-: 22:18:06 * oerjan raises hand 22:18:10 i know haskell 22:18:10 hmm 22:18:13 also... lament 22:18:14 yeah 22:18:16 hmm 22:18:22 and... SimonRC i guess, a bit 22:18:23 or? 22:18:24 i also like python :) 22:18:30 bah 22:18:56 "Oooh, like, we can do duck typing. Yay!" 22:19:19 where is that ehird guy again? i finally got his little language implemented after i switched from Perl to Python 22:19:26 and there is no conflict between cowboy.draw() and sprite.draw(), nosiree 22:19:51 (note: Haskell can resolve that ambiguity just fine) 22:20:27 with modules, but then so can python 22:20:36 nah, python isn;t a bad language at all 22:20:40 oerjan: i made some programs with sadol when was around, and he then disappeared for a few months 22:20:49 anyway, the creator 22:21:11 i guess that'll happen to you too 22:21:19 It's just that my experienc of it is spending half an hour implementing some algebraic data types, then realising that it would be easier in a language with native support for the darned things 22:23:20 i am sure some people have the opposite experience with objects in a functional language 22:28:00 true 22:29:44 yes, me 22:30:11 why do i still have to write essays on paper... i now have to erase about 70 words just to add one sentence i accidentally left out. 22:30:22 hmm 22:30:30 i'm so in the conversation. 22:30:38 you are not allowed to use a printout? 22:30:47 nope. 22:32:16 do it on computer first, then copy it out longhand? 22:32:48 yeah... that's what i should've done. 22:32:57 did that last time 22:33:13 i finished the essay right on time, the night before i should've returned it 22:33:34 but it took me 6 months to finally copy it on paper and turn it in :) 22:35:14 plus this makes no sense since my handwriting is undecipherable 22:57:17 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 22:58:09 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 22:58:17 * Pikhq still doesn't appreciate being called a 9 year old. . . 22:58:26 That's an insult to 9 year olds everywhere, I fear. 22:58:59 would 99 year old be better? 22:59:15 I'm not quite that senile. 22:59:26 sez you! 22:59:49 You can call me that if I get a hip replacement. 22:59:53 but your perception is clearly distorted by your condition. 23:01:48 Of course it's distorted by my 17-year-old-ness. 23:02:53 well, 17 year old dogs are often senile. 23:03:13 (you thought no one knew you were a dog on the internet?) 23:03:15 I'm a member of Homo sapiens, last I checked. 23:03:26 i thought only oerjan was homo 23:03:28 . . . Fine. I'm only a dog when I'm online. 23:03:35 When I'm offline, I change species. 23:03:46 a weredog, ok 23:04:02 And a genius one at that. 23:10:11 wow, ich bin fucking fertig :) 23:11:14 following conversations and playing irc trivia i write 1 wpm on average 23:12:10 i'm pretty sure i'll never have to write another essay in german or swedish, excluding matriculation. 23:13:01 One word per minute? 23:13:05 That's a bit. . . Slow. 23:13:12 und there war viel rejoicing. 23:13:46 ARGH!!! GERMANISH! 23:15:38 it's a bit slow, that exactly was my point 23:16:12 of course, standard deviation is needed before jumping into conclusions. 23:16:24 germany outlawed hacking tools 23:16:26 Oh, you mean the average for essay writing. . . 23:16:28 I blame IrC. 23:16:43 lament: I think their definition is vague enough to include the human brain. 23:16:55 Pikhq: have you seen Folkspraak? 23:17:36 No, I haven't. 23:17:44 Why would I care about the people's speaking? 23:18:07 usually you hear it, now see. 23:21:16 it was an auxiliary Germanish language that we discussed on the conlang mailing list years ago. I am surprised to see it has a (disputed notability) Wikipedia article, and (not as surprisingly) has split into several versions. 23:21:24 tonight, i'm gonna go to sleep early! ------> 23:21:59 *not 23:22:58 -!- CakeProphet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:27:39 Pikhq was on a conlang list? 23:28:14 no i was 23:28:27 * SimonRC too 23:28:39 I am on CONLANG-L and the ZBB. 23:34:37 what the hell 23:34:41 quoting wp: "there is no article in Latin, Sanskrit, Persian or in some modern Indo-European languages such as standard Russian and Czech." 23:34:49 what's this non-standard russian that has articles 23:42:29 oh, russian wikipedia has some info 23:42:48 you mean it actually exists? 23:43:05 (that non-standard russian) 23:43:39 the example given is from late-1600s church language. 23:43:58 Anybody know of a good algorithm/library for comparing images more intelligently than just pixel differences? 23:45:20 the original slavic church language was old Bulgarian, wasn't it. and Bulgarian has articles. 23:45:39 not that there is necessarily a connection. 23:45:42 yes, that's how it got there. 23:45:47 yes, there's likely a connection. 23:50:07 what does "skoal (dip) declension" mean? It's in the article on Bulgarian. 23:50:15 (i'm guessing case) 23:50:59 i don't understand. 23:52:19 the reason i am not sure if there is a connection is because i don't know how recent Bulgarian articles are 23:53:04 it was changed from "noun" to "skoal (dip)" without comment. 23:54:36 i'll change it into "case", me thinks. 23:55:00 GregorR-L: Raster->SVG, diff svg1 svg2 23:55:01 :p 23:56:07 ......................................... no :P 23:56:53 Hmm. . . You *could* do something a bit lengthy by comparing color values, edges, etc. . . 23:57:01 But I'm not sure that's "Good".