< 1181260883 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.choosemyhat.com/ is now officially live < 1181260972 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess i'll design you a schedule then < 1181261026 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION chooses the boring ones to leave the good stuff for later
< 1181261085 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now back to my ...thing -> < 1181261099 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i has no thing < 1181264171 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate writing long stories, i can't handle complex plots and i have a very intense imagination: very bad combination < 1181264245 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long == 15 pages or more for me, i usually write even shorter ones. < 1181265668 0 :RodgerTheGreat!n=Rodger@wads-5-232-125.resnet.mtu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1181265687 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how's it going, everyone? < 1181265703 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, well < 1181265714 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi, oklopol < 1181265719 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiii < 1181265771 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is writing a story about a bunch of lunatics that are soon to be killed
< 1181265809 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds somewhat interesting < 1181265822 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what inspired your literary efforts? < 1181265899 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :www.vjn.fi <<< i'm a month behind < 1181265929 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my 1½ week trip to germany killed our article-per-day project for a while, i'm catching up now :) < 1181265974 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1181265977 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we started right after last summer, there's also another almost 3 month gap because of pure laziness < 1181266006 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we had a group of 5 ppl deciding each writes 1-2 articles a week < 1181266014 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been spending the summer doing some coding on an RPG game engine- do you have a java plugin for your browser? < 1181266019 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but turned out only 2 of us would actually write anything :) < 1181266031 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i might. < 1181266034 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :::) < 1181266105 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if you in fact do, take a gander at the demo I have online at the moment: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/CRPG/ < 1181266121 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some aspects of it (like going through doors) are buggy, but it's a work in progress. < 1181266129 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :many interesting things work well already < 1181266233 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i'm installing a plugin now < 1181266246 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha- ok, then < 1181266256 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or downloading something completely irrelevant, we'll see in a minute < 1181266275 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a .bin? :) < 1181266283 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shrugs
< 1181266290 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1181266298 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assumed it's something everyone knows < 1181266400 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly a binary file of some kind? < 1181266406 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly. < 1181266412 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder what to do with it... < 1181266421 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't programs install themselves... < 1181266423 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::< < 1181266443 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long time no see, RodgerTheGreat < 1181266490 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: oh no you have a tie for tommorow < 1181266491 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it next to a .cue? < 1181266499 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi, bsmntbombdood < 1181266503 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Read the FAQ :P < 1181266506 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: I am the tiebreaker. < 1181266514 0 :erider!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi all < 1181266520 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would hope so < 1181266574 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Is it next to a .cue file? < 1181266591 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :errrr no < 1181266602 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it's a binary of some kind :P < 1181266681 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm.... there was, like, this button that said "install plugin"... so i pressed it (even though it didn't blink) and it said something about not being able to do something and i have to do something manually and i found myself on a page with linux penguins and a list of files ot dl < 1181266693 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... naturally i clicked on a random link < 1181266727 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1181266730 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pretty sure you can advise me based on that. < 1181266732 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1181266736 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, coffee time... < 1181266751 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it's probably a binary. < 1181266759 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chmod 0755 it, run it, and watch it reformat your hard disk. < 1181266789 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, if that's the flash player, just use the RPM (+alien on non-RPM platforms) < 1181266865 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: what linux distro do you run? < 1181266867 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chmod 0755? < 1181266869 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ubuntu. < 1181266883 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i have no idea about _anything_ < 1181266916 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n00b? < 1181266923 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1181266952 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in pretty much anything regarding software someone other than me created < 1181266957 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: this could be big < 1181266978 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: this may solve your problem: http://linux.about.com/od/ubuntu_doc/a/ubudg22t8.htm < 1181267029 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: digg it :P < 1181267043 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oooh good plan < 1181267055 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: I'll add a "digg this" button if you give me the HTML. < 1181267058 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a fegging clue with digg. < 1181267059 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except i am not able < 1181267062 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X-P < 1181267065 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me neither :) < 1181267091 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: i might have a faint idea what it says there... but let's not get our hopes up < 1181267095 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries
< 1181267188 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oaky, too hard. < 1181267205 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should install a brain first < 1181267353 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that'd be like dl'ing winzip in a .zip-file < 1181267355 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1181267378 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(real-life example) < 1181267621 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's almost like having GCC in C, or tar in a tarball, or Make with a Makefile. . . < 1181267649 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but are those ever officially distributed like that? :) < 1181267661 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, yeah. < 1181267663 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc < 1181267671 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh :| < 1181267674 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and tar < 1181267678 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that's sensible in some way < 1181267684 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU Make actually depends upon Make, automake, autoconf, etc. < 1181267684 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and make, probably < 1181267687 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though i don't know the way < 1181267689 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC is in C, tar is in a tarball but also has a sharball, and make is distributed with an sh script as well. < 1181267720 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, if you don't *have* those, the method of installation you have remaining involves bootstrapping a build environment. . . < 1181267726 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: Oh, make has a .sh? Didn't know that.\ < 1181267744 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Likewise, didn't know that tar had a shar of it. < 1181267759 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/tar/tar-1.16.1.shar.gz < 1181267759 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know about those, but at some point winzip was ONLY distributed in .zip-format on the official page < 1181267774 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a non-gzipped version of that too :P < 1181267774 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had to install pkunzip to get it open < 1181267780 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the point of a *compressed* shar? If you don't have tar, you probably don't hbave gzip. . . < 1181267785 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I stand corrected. < 1181267803 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At that point, you do depend upon the shell. . . But if you don't have bash, you're kind of screwed. ;) < 1181267808 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1181267819 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, how do you make bash? :P < 1181267829 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Bootstrap the system. < 1181267849 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean? < 1181267869 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, compile the whole OS from scratch. < 1181267884 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Honestly, if you don't have a *shell*, you don't exactly *have* an OS. . . < 1181267929 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. There's not an uncompressed shar of tar that I can find on ftp.gnu.org < 1181267945 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you compile the os without making gcc? < 1181267957 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, not the latest. < 1181267998 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/tar/tar-1.13.shar < 1181268000 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1181268003 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, not the latest. < 1181268039 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Well, at *that* point, you either use a boot disc to build your toolchain, or (if you're making the toolchain for an arch that doesn't have any one yet) you write by hand a basic C compiler in assembly. < 1181268055 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although you'd be best off just making a damned cross-compiler) < 1181268055 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you make the assembler? < 1181268075 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You make it on a different computer. < 1181268081 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In hex. < 1181268083 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One which *has* a tool-chain. < 1181268089 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you make it on that one? < 1181268100 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it has a tool-chain, you can just use C. < 1181268101 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1181268107 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The absolute, basic bootstrapping occurred decades ago. Now, everything has been bootstrapped. < 1181268125 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now it's a matter of just doing bootstrapping from a different working system. < 1181268160 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you *insist* on doing the basic bootstrapping, you need to start with a system where you can input the individual bits yourself, and go up from there. < 1181268182 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmph, GregorR-L prevented further "why" trolling quite meanly :< < 1181268210 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1181268214 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks. . . Perhaps a ROM-chip emulator with a few thousand toggle switches and the Intel docs?
< 1181268231 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't input bits without an os on any arch i know < 1181268238 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Toggle switches. < 1181268267 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: it was a nop. < 1181268272 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forget it < 1181268276 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me continue -> < 1181268284 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: they need drivers < 1181268287 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hell, if you don't want to get your x86 board to accept toggle switches, *obviously* you go ahead and get an older PDP-11. < 1181268304 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know where i can get one of those? < 1181268323 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: What, attaching a bunch of toggle switches in a way that emulates the *initial* *boot* *ROM* requires drivers? < 1181268324 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I swear I will kill you all :P < 1181268337 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if you're in a universe with no matter? How do you compile your GCC? < 1181268352 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How the hell does a BIOS boot if you need drivers from the BIOS to boot the BIOS? ;) < 1181268360 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what compiled the universe? < 1181268370 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: Obviously you ask God. < 1181268403 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And don't ask where God came from. God is the initial bootstrapper. ;) < 1181268405 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my computer doesn't have to switches :( < 1181268409 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"LET THERE BE... oh, fuck. hold on, lemme find a repo with the packages I need for this thing..." < 1181268444 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Yeah. . . You get a good hardware designer to make you a circuit board for the several thousand switches needed. < 1181268510 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you could just use 2 switches and do it serially < 1181268517 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually you just wire up a CPU to accept a byte at a time from switches and interrupts < 1181268531 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how altairs and ELFs did it. < 1181268531 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1181268593 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you could design some type of pegboard wire-crossing ROM thingy like they had on the EDSAC with a bootloader that can read in an OS from tape, which actually is a pretty convenient solution. < 1181268611 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The obvious solution, though, is to write a C compiler in Brainfuck, get a friggin' huge notebook, and hand-run your C compiler, and then use that switch setup to set it up in your computer. < 1181268642 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1181268659 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck that- if I'm punching something into a computer via dipswitches, I'm damn well going to hand-optimize the code in machinecode. < 1181268677 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computer scientists were hardcore like that, back in the day. < 1181268686 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be fun to do < 1181268687 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now they're all fucking pansies. < 1181268690 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: Fine, then. Get your IA-32 docs, and start hand-compiling that C code. < 1181268706 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't one say anything here without it resulting in a very sick conversation :) < 1181268723 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no, I'm not printing out the LFS source code for you. < 1181268730 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hire Kinko's to do it. :p < 1181268739 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is worthless when your RAM wordcount is in the sub-1000 range and you brag about having a 40k drum memory. < 1181268741 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LFS? < 1181268747 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*Or* you could buy a copy of Minix) < 1181268754 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Linux From Scratch. < 1181268758 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1181268774 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Minix, IIRC, has full annotated C code for it in the book. < 1181268776 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :machinecode is where it's at with anything that uses mercury delay-line registers. < 1181268794 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was written with a computer, no fair using it < 1181268796 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: We were discussing bootstrapping on x86, last I checked. < 1181268829 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm discussing coding for an EDSAC. < 1181268866 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION laughs a bit at saying *an* EDSAC
< 1181268870 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine, if you care about it being written with a *computer*, I'll get you the blueprints for a Z1 < 1181268876 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, sweet < 1181268891 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hot damn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mercury_memory.jpg < 1181268895 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see if raul rojas was really on to anything with his TC proof < 1181268900 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry. I'll give you a Z3. < 1181268903 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i browsed through minix source code once, i wonder if anyone ever actually benefits from printed 300 pages of source... < 1181268911 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Z1 was just a floating point calculator; the Z3 was the TC one. < 1181268926 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, good- the memory is more reliable on the Z3, too- relays > pure mechanical < 1181268940 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the z1 had a lot of mechanical deadlock problems < 1181268964 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: like I said, computer scientists were hardcore back in the day. < 1181268965 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, I could also get you an Analytical Engine. < 1181269031 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the analytical engine had a rather unconventional means of flow control- it only expresses a vague programmability < 1181269050 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly TC, but I don't know. < 1181269120 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tell you what- gimme a manchester Mark 1. < 1181269143 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my, 64 22-bit words < 1181269160 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Analytical Engine is the *first* Turing complete design. < 1181269197 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only 100kg! < 1181269203 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*1000kg < 1181269216 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... i wonder if bees get angry if you hit them with a book and they do not die < 1181269248 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: You sure you want a Mark 1? < 1181269252 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm fairly familiar with it, but the Z1 represents a much more... tangible... contribution to computation history. As Steve Jobs once said, "real artists ship". < 1181269274 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Mark 1's not even TC. . . < 1181269276 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: why not? It has *blazing* CRT-based RAM! < 1181269310 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crt ram!?! < 1181269347 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Yeah; has to be refreshed periodically, so the bits don't go out of the phosphor. < 1181269363 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you read it? < 1181269398 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously with a bunch of photoelectric cells. < 1181269462 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_tube Never mind; they read it differently. < 1181269466 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nice thing about a mark 1 is that it consists of only a handful of racks, so it can be moved from place to place with a few trucks, fit through doors, and can be set up in an average sized room. < 1181269526 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderful < 1181269530 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1181269579 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty reasonable memory and storage capabilities, too < 1181269627 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Z3 is a nice machine, but TC is very nontrivial and mechanically unfeasible, for the most part. A Z4 could be pretty cool, though. < 1181269633 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Z3 could be moved with just one truck-load, I think. . . < 1181269650 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmm. relay-based computing makes me feel all warm inside. < 1181269653 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Z4 would take a few. < 1181269677 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use relays for ram, no? < 1181269678 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the z1 and z3 are fairly compact, but too wide to fit through conventional doors, and difficult to disassemble. < 1181269693 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Certaintly. < 1181269702 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: that's what the z3 and z4 did. < 1181269714 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of the z3 and z4 is done in relays. < 1181269719 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's hot < 1181269731 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably literally < 1181269774 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and running programs gives a beautiful cascade of clicks < 1181269804 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :want < 1181269805 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow- I hadn't heard of this russian beauty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strela_computer < 1181269822 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to build one now < 1181269828 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION votes for building a z3 with solid-state relays, just to annoy Rodger. :p
< 1181269829 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::3 < 1181269840 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<:[ < 1181269841 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how much do you think 2000 relays cost? < 1181269849 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you so cruel, pikhq? < 1181269862 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: lots, unless you find a bulk supplier < 1181269872 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: z3 or z4? < 1181269878 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither < 1181269888 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, just a relay based computer? < 1181269892 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1181269894 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kewl beans < 1181269894 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or pick up relays from an *old* phone system. . . < 1181269908 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can design our own < 1181269938 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1181269939 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/ < 1181269945 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we want to use small voltage ranges so that we can keep the machine small and the cost low. < 1181269970 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: I've seen that machine before- quite an accomplishment < 1181269981 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pdx.edu == my school ;) < 1181269993 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: Cheating. I see an IC. < 1181269999 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: I recommend designing some relay-based logic gates first, as practice < 1181270008 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :D < 1181270019 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the IC is ram, which is actually what makes it awesome < 1181270039 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :32k = virtually limitless possibilities < 1181270089 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So. . . RAM is IC, registers are relays, *and* the ALU is in relays? < 1181270092 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn, that's sexy. < 1181270112 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do concur. <3 < 1181270120 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IC = lame < 1181270123 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can do better < 1181270148 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: well, relays make RAM expensive and large. so we need an alternate solution... < 1181270163 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: 32K of relay RAM?!? < 1181270167 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't trade awesomeness for practicality < 1181270180 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly punchcards or tape as a large storage base with only limited onboard RAM? < 1181270208 0 :c|p!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1181270215 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~harry/Relay/SoundOfRelays.mp3 < 1181270227 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the program runs directly from tape (and is obviously in a loop that can halt), we could get away with a very small number of registers. < 1181270271 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm imagining something like a pure-relay version of the Z3 with a conditional jump-forward command. < 1181270292 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you guys think of that? < 1181270293 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm going to see if i can figure out some basic gates < 1181270361 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably throw in a true "halt" instruction too, so you don't have to rely on arithmetic exceptions. < 1181270420 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's Four-Pole-Double-Throw? < 1181270434 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1181270443 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know anything about switches? < 1181270453 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the turn things on and off < 1181270460 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPST = single pole, single throw. < 1181270479 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :single pole means you're opening and closing one switch at a time, basically < 1181270493 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, I'm backwards < 1181270505 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :single throw means one switch at at time. < 1181270520 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1181270541 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it a bad sign when you fall in love with a machine? < 1181270552 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1181270554 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. never. especially not when it has clicky bits. < 1181270576 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good. . . < 1181270584 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if it's TC, you're only required to avoid making out with it in public. < 1181270593 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch#Contact_arrangements < 1181270604 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine, then. I'll be sure to get a room. < 1181270609 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1181270632 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I don't think my girlfriend would appreciate me cheating on her. . . < 1181270649 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially not when it's a clicky machine. . . :) < 1181270669 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like I'll be wearing my red fedora tomorrow. < 1181270690 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just tell her that if she wants to win you back she'll have to learn to talk dirty in machinecode. < 1181270692 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, Four-Pole-Double-Throw means it has 4 different SPDT switches? < 1181270704 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that are mechanically linked < 1181270705 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1181270717 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, if one is ON, all are on. < 1181270726 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1181270729 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like how a DPST does it with two < 1181270731 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1181270742 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: You might want to check again. < 1181270790 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like I'm still wearing the red fedora :P < 1181270805 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have any of you guys read "The First Computers: History and Architectures"? < 1181270832 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION does a vote-- on the fedora. :p
< 1181270858 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one of my favorite books of all time, because not only does it discuss early machines, it often has schematics, specs, instruction sets and machinecode examples. :D < 1181270881 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and most of the articles are written by the people that *created* the machines in the first place < 1181270883 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: By the way, I wore the Pakul on Wednesday, so I'm not wearing it on Friday even if it wins. < 1181270885 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: Oooooh. . . I need that. < 1181270909 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: Yeah, yeah. . . Just messing with ya. ;) < 1181270932 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.amazon.com/First-Computers-History-Architectures-History-Computing/dp/0262681374/ref=sr_1_22/102-0916127-5584141?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181267279&sr=8-22 <- absolutely fucking awesome < 1181270966 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT is easy, AND is easy < 1181270998 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XOR is a trick, but useful as hell < 1181271010 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NAND and you wins. < 1181271011 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now you've got NAND, and I believe you can make every gate from NANDs. < 1181271019 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is truth. < 1181271021 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1181271038 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's much simpler to build the other gates too < 1181271044 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/simpler/more efficient/ < 1181271046 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, creating that many NANDs could be painful for a relay-based system. < 1181271077 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's best that you optimize your NAND gate as a single circuit rather than tying a NOT to an AND < 1181271096 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1181271110 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point is that you can, not that it's a good idea. ;) < 1181271128 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when you get to actually implementing the system, always start with a truth table and simplify, simplify, simplify < 1181271142 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you do xor? < 1181271147 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yeah, I understand- your point was just about it in a theoretical sense < 1181271175 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION used to have a list of gates done in NAND. . . I was bored in a computer class. Very bored.
< 1181271180 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1,1:0 1,0:1 0,1:1 0,0:0 < 1181271183 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This was, of course, before I learned Brainfuck. < 1181271196 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that clear enough, bsmntbombdood? < 1181271216 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know what xor _is_ < 1181271220 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1181271241 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're having trouble with it, see if you can figure out the inverse and then NOT it < 1181271246 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Tam just took a term for the better. < 1181271337 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1181271339 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"turn" < 1181271367 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i got < 1181271374 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it takes 3 relays though < 1181271375 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently, the favorite books I have on my shelf are "Programming the IBM Personal Computer: BASIC", "The First Computers: History and Architectures", "Snow Crash", "The Salmon of Doubt" and "Understanding Comics" < 1181271418 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see you've got pretty good taste. < 1181271429 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(^ _ ^) < 1181271445 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah? well i've got "The ibm personal computer made easy" < 1181271461 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION needs to find his Apple II
< 1181271471 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm using a copy of "The C++ Programming Language" to hold up my monitor. < 1181271475 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ain't every day you find a 17 year old saying that) < 1181271541 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* pikhq used to have a list of gates done in NAND. . . I was bored in a computer class. Very bored. <<< we do that stuff in the university \o/ < 1181271546 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after about 20 pages of stroustrup creaming himself over the brilliance and elegance of his horrible little language, I gave up on that book and repurposed it. < 1181271627 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course you might be there already) < 1181271627 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I'm in high school right now. < 1181271627 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did that my freshman year. < 1181271643 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :college is going to suck < 1181271644 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my point was: we don't, not in the school < 1181271648 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm slowly getting to the point where university CS courses are teaching me new things. Freshman year was more or less a wash, but I did learn a few new ideas in Data Structures. < 1181271666 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i even get in < 1181271683 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For me, my freshman year will probably be boring. . . < 1181271690 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once I get "Software development in C/C++" out of the way I start being able to take the fun classes, which is why I'm taking it now during the summer. < 1181271699 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think i've learned anything but german and swedish in my whole school time < 1181271717 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I'd highly recommend taking the AP CS test, even if your school doesn't offer it. < 1181271735 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brush up on java for a few days and you can ace it no problem. < 1181271736 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: Yeah, I've been thinking about it. < 1181271737 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the AP CS test is a joke < 1181271741 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd highly recommend not taking the AP CS test. < 1181271746 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since no school accepts it. < 1181271756 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't taken it, but i've looked at it < 1181271759 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: MTU sure as hell did. < 1181271766 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll largely depend upon whether or not my school of choice does take it. . . < 1181271786 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it doesn't, screw it. I'm not wasting my money, and I'm not tainting my brain with Java. ;) < 1181271813 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did the AP CS A test in C++, and the AP CS B test in Java. < 1181271817 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sense fear that you will enjoy Java. < 1181271818 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I'm brilliant that way. < 1181271837 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I took it, everything was done in Java. < 1181271858 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably you took it more recently than I did < 1181271864 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had about 2 weeks of java coding under my belt at the time and didn't know half a shit about OOP, and I still got a 5 on it. < 1181271866 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They switched it over between when I took the two. < 1181271869 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was about 2 years ago. < 1181271876 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Why* can't they still do C++? < 1181271890 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It's not proprietary enough :P < 1181271895 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't the use a decent language? < 1181271897 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: Nor is Java. < 1181271902 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: because over 80% of CS curricula in universities are based on Java. < 1181271908 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(OK, I know, I'm not being fair, Java is now somewhat F/OSS) < 1181271913 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PSU == C++ still 8-D < 1181271919 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: whhhhhhy < 1181271925 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: Then I'm lucky that the ones I've looked at are the 20% that aren't Java. < 1181271952 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Pain, agony, sorrow, not teaching malloc. < 1181271986 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you not know manual memory allocation? < 1181272000 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to be fair, doing malloc and such the *right* way does take half a brain, which the average CS freshman doesn't have, if the course material is anything to judge by) < 1181272008 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Simple. < 1181272010 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's much, much more *consistent* than C or C++, for all it's faults. The vast majority of the work of learning C and C++ is learning all the "gotchas" and exceptions, rather than learning to program. In most CS courses, they're more concerned that you know how to conceptually use a linked list and manipulate it in algos than how to manage the memory behind it. < 1181272012 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use Java. < 1181272038 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: scheeeemeee < 1181272038 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's consistent because it's lacking. < 1181272056 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that it's consistently getting less consistent ^^ < 1181272066 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At MTU, we do what I feel is a pretty good balance of both worlds- all introductory courses use Java, then you're required to learn C and C++, and then you use whatever the hell you want. < 1181272090 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should look into MTU, just for the sake of doing Java->C->Brainfuck.
< 1181272122 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: you could argue that the loss of consistency stems from the pressure of C coders that whine about lacking features like operator overloading. < 1181272127 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have no idea why struct foo *Java has a member struct foo *C, nor do I know why struct foo *C has struct foo *Brainfuck. < 1181272137 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: That's C++ :P < 1181272141 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: C doesn't. ;) < 1181272179 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And really, there *are* cases where operator overloading makes sense. < 1181272185 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1181272187 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by "C programmers" I mean "C and C++ programmers", because as far as I'm concerned C++ is just a sloppy mess tacked on to the actual language C. < 1181272188 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such as GMP. < 1181272190 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION <3 Smalltalk
< 1181272205 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ is quite a mess, yes. < 1181272210 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Java is a horrible overreaction to that. < 1181272214 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: No, C++ is a sloppy mess tacked onto a slightly disabled C. < 1181272220 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X-D < 1181272226 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C isn't disabled < 1181272240 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: No, but the common subset supported by C++ and C *is*. < 1181272241 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: You don't speak English, do you? < 1181272254 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java has a consistent design that doesn't factor in things like operator overloading, and every feature like that erodes the integrity of the design. It's just standard-rot. < 1181272261 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only a little < 1181272301 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smalltalk. < 1181272303 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: Java has a consistent design that was made by people who never seem to value their ability to code for more than an hour. < 1181272303 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smaaaaaaaaaaaaalltalk. < 1181272310 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalltalk. < 1181272318 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR-L: I've heard good things about it, but never coded in it. < 1181272350 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but back on the topic of pikhq using something like BFM for homework- it'd be totally acceptable (in the compiled form of C code) for most homework, but if it has a bug, he's probably going to get a zero, because the grader will want to die when he looks at it < 1181272374 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you missed my rename of BFM. < 1181272380 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly < 1181272407 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BFM is now PEBBLE: the Practical Esoteric Brainfuck-Based Language, Eh? < 1181272421 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :creative. < 1181272441 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION debates actually completing an interpreter for Lojo.
< 1181272441 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the C backend has been made to be damned efficient. . . < 1181272459 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh. I just got a wonderful, horrible idea. < 1181272464 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah? < 1181272473 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll implement Lojo in C. < 1181272480 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just any C though... < 1181272497 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :horrifically obfuscated and mangled C. < 1181272511 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the best way to go < 1181272521 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION begins happily drafting an esoteric C coding style doc.
< 1181272606 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ground rules: no globals, no functions, no for loops, no header files, and as many things as possible rolled into oneliners. < 1181272627 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those principles *alone* should be enough to create some monstrosities. < 1181272637 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no functions? < 1181272640 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1181272649 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :excepting main, of course < 1181272658 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sooooo jsut while? < 1181272661 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jsustu < 1181272679 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's take it a step further and outlaw select structures, in case anyone feels like being a wiseass. < 1181272686 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yeah < 1181272701 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i kinda like functions :< < 1181272707 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if C had better support for labels I'd strip out everything but IF...THEN. < 1181272718 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had a verrrry sick idea for an rpg using c and function pointers < 1181272728 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's sad how crippled C's goto is. the poor thing... < 1181272738 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1181272747 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it was too sick for me back then < 1181272754 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is correct- function pointers can lead to hilarious hijinx. < 1181272779 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and let's not forget excessive use of recursion. < 1181272785 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, ok- functions are back in. < 1181272864 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with c's goto? < 1181272888 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: it's so... so weak compared to the GOTO of BASIC. < 1181272899 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my idea was to encode the game in a big array of functions... each representing a room, and it'd reorder itself somwhat randomly like in that one boardgame < 1181272914 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't seem like there's much to a goto... < 1181272925 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more of a vestigal appendix to the language, while BASIC uses it is a glorious multifunctional tool < 1181272929 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*uses it as a < 1181272962 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that mean? < 1181272999 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computed jumps, oklopol. computed jumps. < 1181273021 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what can you compute? < 1181273060 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the beautiful thing about BASIC is that everything boils down to IF, THEN, LET and GOTO. < 1181273083 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please boil out the difference :> < 1181273084 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::< < 1181273146 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... i wonder if i could just skip a night's sleep without additional sleep tomorrow night... thazz rare < 1181273146 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and IF and THEN can often be simulated with LET and GOTO, actually < 1181273168 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: your REM cycles will catch up with you, one way or another < 1181273204 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess < 1181273234 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright, screw Lojo for the time being- I'm implementing a true Estoteric BASIC. I'll call it "BASICU" (Basic Unadvanced) for a playful jab at BASICA < 1181273259 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless one of you can think of a more interesting/pleasant/funny name off the tops of your heads. < 1181273298 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ubasic < 1181273299 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll just go for PRINT, INPUT, LET and GOTO as keywords, with the possible later addition of DIM. < 1181273307 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(qbasic) < 1181273312 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : heh < 1181273324 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had a lang called trivial once < 1181273347 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used to code in qbasic < 1181273350 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those were the days < 1181273354 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was string-based... i guess i didn't know about parsing back then < 1181273361 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too :) < 1181273364 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i sucked :< < 1181273372 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"MASIC: Masochist's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code" < 1181273380 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1181273384 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's best of the 3 < 1181273391 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we keep getting better < 1181273396 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who'll top that one? < 1181273426 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PENIS: Programming for the Enlightened: the New Instruction Set < 1181273458 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how long did that take you? < 1181273469 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's extremely entertaining, but the name might be too long. < 1181273471 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... okay, i made myself a big bowl of ice... now how the fuck do i eat it < 1181273474 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X-D < 1181273476 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ba-dum-tshh < 1181273487 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ice? < 1181273499 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard to explain < 1181273505 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How to eat it: < 1181273507 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) Melt it. < 1181273510 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2) Drink it. < 1181273513 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a solid substance formed when water is made cold. < 1181273525 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yuck, water < 1181273532 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you eating it < 1181273533 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ice, on the other hand <3 < 1181273538 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hot < 1181273597 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks through a catalog for relays
< 1181273736 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaaaaand i've got water in my lungs < 1181273745 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god i'm great. < 1181273756 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm looking at $3/each < 1181273764 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :check out major suppliers like digikey < 1181273780 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: lol- good work there, cheif < 1181273908 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a power relay? < 1181273914 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... i could make snow if i had a decent blender < 1181273921 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because here's some for $.90/each < 1181273921 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd be sweeeeeeeet < 1181273964 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RodgerTheGreat: Looking way back at your discussion. . . < 1181273970 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU C *does* have computed jumps. < 1181274008 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :__label__ foo, bar, baz; < 1181274020 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Declaring those labels. . . < 1181274024 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo: < 1181274028 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Defining the label. . . < 1181274029 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the *elegance* man, the *elegance*! < 1181274040 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :__label__ array[3] = {foo, bar, baz}; < 1181274046 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There we go. An array of labels. < 1181274081 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err. Not quite. . . < 1181274108 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC's documentation (section 5.3) describes it being different. < 1181274152 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all these relays are expensive < 1181274179 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: it's a sad truth of electromechanical components- they's pricey. < 1181274210 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y'know, I once got in a huge argument as to wether or not BASIC had pointers < 1181274286 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my take is that since PEEK and POKE can manipulate memory directly, and VARPTR() can get the location of a variable, you have all the capabilities of pointers with different syntax and effectively weak-typed pointer/integer mutability < 1181274320 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This assumes that your BASIC implementation has PEEK and POKE. < 1181274333 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :peek(x) is effectively the same as *x in C < 1181274340 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, naturally < 1181274353 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one I was using for my examples does, so it stands < 1181274354 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i cracked my ice! < 1181274367 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, that doesn't work for BFBASIC. ;) < 1181274379 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is too bad. < 1181274393 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if calamari was in here I'd suggest he use my ideas to make it happen. :) < 1181274440 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, ice is pretty < 1181274442 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1181274463 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the end, the argument devolved into my opponent telling me that since BASIC doesn't have structs, my examples were meaningless, which I find to be poppycock < 1181274467 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :choosemyhat.com is bettar! < 1181274493 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BASIC doesn't have structs *directly*. < 1181274506 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: my point exactly < 1181274507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, using PEEK and POKE, you can simulate the effects. < 1181274520 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do structs have to do with pointers? < 1181274526 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :capability is largely independent from syntax < 1181274528 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just use a nice naming scheme for variables. < 1181274549 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: I guess he figured pointers aren't useful without structs? < 1181274569 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is BS. < 1181274599 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible to simulate structs granted pointers. . . < 1181274605 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although it'll look horrid. ;) < 1181274627 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a simple macro system will make that look ok < 1181274666 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'mean the one BASIC doesn't have? < 1181274703 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most BASICs lack a preprocessor < 1181274710 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1181274715 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could run basic through cpp < 1181274722 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eesh. < 1181274739 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you do such a thing? < 1181274771 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, the struct thing is something which does not require any weird stuff, just a few simple calculations for different fields of the struct < 1181274786 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i mean by a macro system is it's not something the language can't handle trivially < 1181274803 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it could be done with a text substitution macro system < 1181274815 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that makes any sence, call me lucky. < 1181274822 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't really see the screen < 1181274976 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sense < 1181274976 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I understand what you mean- it's pretty much what underlies how C actually handles structs internally < 1181274976 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointers + offsets substituted in for variable names < 1181274976 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yaya, triv as a tree in a pole < 1181274976 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds pretty simple < 1181274976 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find that hilarious < 1181274976 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should sleep, prolyl < 1181274976 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*prolly < 1181274976 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my favorite BASIC, Cbaspad, it's fairly trivial to do string manipulations on your own source < 1181274976 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ought to try that at some point. >:D < 1181275011 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never really seen anyone use code manipulation done on plain source code < 1181275023 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, and archieving something by it < 1181275052 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess i have to admit i might have seen one but had no idea what i saw. < 1181275141 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the time, it's really hard to do. < 1181275232 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah... if you really do something you couldn't have done by changing the _parsed_ source, and still manage to do something, you're pretty sick < 1181275241 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to make this computer < 1181275242 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Cbaspad, a program is loaded by line numbers and then initialized, executing stored instructions. Then, you can open the source itself as an input file, make modifications freely, and (using some tricky manipulations), get the program to reload the source without clearing variable contents and begin running again < 1181275266 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i can't imagine that being done but a few times, VERY carefullly planned for every bit of code where it's used < 1181275332 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I love Cbaspad because I understand it more completely than any other non-esolang, and I feel I've pushed it to it's limit more than anyone else who's used it. < 1181275340 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shuts down
< 1181275389 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a very small, little-known language, which makes discoveries and demonstrations all the more special. < 1181275400 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cooool < 1181275407 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ice, yuum < 1181275466 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, 6 am, i should wake ^ < 1181275474 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i might code a bit < 1181275487 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't programmed anything in about a week :< < 1181275502 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for random bits of java and php < 1181275505 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but like < 1181275511 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't coded oklotalk < 1181275512 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::< < 1181275574 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why should our computer even be binary? < 1181275586 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cause it's the easist? < 1181275593 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unary 8P < 1181275710 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nonary < 1181275715 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 == infinity < 1181275746 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had this idea about infinitiary numbers the other day < 1181275749 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1181275753 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :today < 1181275755 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1181275782 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though the idea is so trivial i can't even say it with a straight face < 1181275944 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oh no, someone peed in my pants" xD family guy is so insightful < 1181276371 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1181278349 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Memory: thin metal plates, worked with fret saw;" < 1181278354 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does that work? < 1181278423 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://irb.cs.tu-berlin.de/~zuse/Konrad_Zuse/en/Rechner_Z2.html < 1181279453 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1181279457 0 :bsmntbombdood!i=gavin@abacus.kwzs.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1181281285 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1181282359 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think 1 bit of memory = 2 relays < 1181282436 0 :boily!n=boily@bas2-quebec14-1128667304.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1181282622 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no that doesn't wor < 1181282622 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1181282727 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this does < 1181284836 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"WeeChat 0.2.4" < 1181289599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1181289600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1181290634 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1181294152 0 :ais523!n=chatzill@chillingi.eee.bham.ac.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1181298698 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1181303435 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1181303664 0 :ais523!n=chatzill@chillingi.eee.bham.ac.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1181304024 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"looking for food" < 1181304570 0 :ais523!n=chatzill@chillingi.eee.bham.ac.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1181305829 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~bf ,[.,]!test < 1181305848 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~exec execfile('/bot/scripts/bf.py') < 1181305898 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, the bot isn't here, that's why it isn't responding < 1181308625 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-091-096-034-016.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1181314054 0 :cmeme!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Client terminated by server" < 1181314076 0 :cmeme!n=cmeme@boa.b9.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1181314137 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1181314150 0 :fizzie!n=fis@sesefras.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1181317195 0 :calamari!n=calamari@ip72-200-73-175.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1181318283 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1181319289 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"CommandQ" < 1181321696 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"bye" < 1181322031 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-85-145.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1181324194 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1181326958 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is awesome: http://catb.org/esr/jargon/html/story-of-mel.html < 1181331643 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1181333202 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :old < 1181336861 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@86.156.99.218 JOIN :#esoteric < 1181339162 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=p_q@bas2-toronto47-1242437214.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1181340828 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1181342277 0 :c|p!n=wil@unaffiliated/cp/x-000001 JOIN :#esoteric < 1181343191 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=p_q@bas2-toronto47-1242436052.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1181344972 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1181345153 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"@+" < 1181345293 0 :c|p!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving"