< 1181780208 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"@+" < 1181788361 0 :kwertii_!n=kwertii@190.48.49.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1181788826 0 :kwertii_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :kwertii < 1181791912 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1181793201 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has anyone done an impure lazy language? < 1181793838 0 :puzzlet!i=puzzlet@122.46.197.12 JOIN :#esoteric < 1181800031 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1181804160 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define "lazy" and "impure". < 1181804304 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lazy = call by need; impure = has imperative constructs < 1181805080 0 :GreaseMonkey!n=ieatyou@222-154-150-215.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1181805144 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :N0body < 1181807999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1181808000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1181809283 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1181814028 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1181816251 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.ioccc.org/2001/herrmann1.hint < 1181816256 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1181817627 0 :N0body!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gonna go now, cya < 1181817645 0 :N0body!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Hasta la Vista(R)" < 1181819940 0 :andreou!i=ee4299@nemesis.ee.teiath.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1181821456 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1181825051 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1181825999 0 :nooga!i=nooga@xdsl-6552.lubin.dialog.net.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1181826001 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he < 1181826182 0 :Doomguy0505!n=mattop@CPE-58-169-228-136.sa.bigpond.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1181826339 0 :Doomguy0505!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1181826515 0 :ihope!n=ihope@c-71-205-100-59.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1181826524 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Security proofs... interesting idea. < 1181828246 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder how to make yacc to report all syntactic errors in parsed text < 1181828720 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you need to put error tokens in the productions so yacc can know how to continue after an error < 1181828850 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See the section on "Error recovery" in "info bison" < 1181828950 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk < 1181830310 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1181830829 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-085-016-239-173.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1181831400 0 :jix__!n=jix@dyndsl-085-016-239-173.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1181831928 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1181833055 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-085-016-237-242.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1181833545 0 :jix__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1181834360 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Dinner" < 1181839186 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-59-143.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1181842901 0 :lament!n=lament@S010600110999ad06.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1181845551 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@208-180-8-45-static-hsb.provalue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1181846699 0 :erider!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1181846738 0 :erider!n=erider@unaffiliated/erider JOIN :#esoteric < 1181847416 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I propose a deathmode for Malbolge. < 1181847493 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the opposite of a wimpmode? < 1181847511 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like making it self-encrypt like malbolge? < 1181847645 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh. . . Making Malbolge encrypt like Malbolge makes it. . . Malbolge. :p < 1181847662 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2d malbolge. :D < 1181847671 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yeah, it's the opposite of a wimpmode. < 1181847677 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a different instruction set, too < 1181847687 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3d encrypting stack-based Malbolge. < 1181847697 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there ya go < 1181847707 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, the push operation also calls crazy on the thing to be pushed. < 1181847745 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even better- replace the stack with a queue to make common operations less convenient < 1181847760 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better than a FIFO queue. < 1181847776 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LIFO. < 1181847825 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err. < 1181847828 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um. < 1181847838 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION scratches his head < 1181847839 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FINO < 1181847843 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you will excuse me, I'm going to realise the implications of what I just said. < 1181847845 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first in never out. < 1181847852 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FIMO. < 1181847856 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First in middle out. < 1181847862 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yeah, I was trying to wrap my brain around that with some difficulty < 1181847886 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: wouldn't FIMO just cut the thing in half, effectively? < 1181847901 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or make parts inaccessible, at least? < 1181847905 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1181847916 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each pop would take from the exact middle. < 1181847937 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, yeah- you just have to dump out large parts to get to elements deeper than the middle < 1181847941 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(averaging two cells if the middle is in between two cells) < 1181847951 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my last sentence was confusing < 1181847963 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I understand what you mean < 1181847967 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LIFO is a normal stack. XD < 1181848057 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like last in first out < 1181848059 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example < 1181848083 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you take an empty stack, push 1, pop 5, push 5, pop 1, then destroy the stack. < 1181848096 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it needs a time machine to work, though. < 1181848119 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course if you don't push 5 after popping 5, the universe collapses. < 1181848144 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1181849277 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Malbolge? That's a hack. < 1181849440 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Reconnecting..." < 1181849559 0 :ihope!n=ihope@c-71-205-100-59.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1181849600 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, judging by the clog logs, what I tried to say didn't get said... < 1181849609 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trying this again. < 1181849699 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Malbolge? That's a hack. Go build me a universal constructor/computer in Conway's Game of Life and program it to construct anything given its layout and a description of the space it's allowed to use for construction. < 1181849771 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's allowed to fill up an infinite strip of arbitrary width, but it can't venture beyond that strip. You decide what slope the lines that bound the strip should be. < 1181849809 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go give me a proof of that being possible. < 1181849814 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there is none as of yet.) < 1181849826 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you can at least build a universal computer! < 1181849834 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, go prove it for me :-P < 1181849835 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah; I've got one. < 1181849841 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have one? < 1181849850 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a Turing machine in Life. < 1181849856 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't design it, but I have it. ;) < 1181849860 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infinite tape and everything? < 1181849873 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, you can't claim to have designed everything! < 1181849876 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tape is merely finite, but that's an implementation detail. < 1181849891 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hey, I found a pattern that moves!" < 1181849907 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's trivial to extend the tape to however large you wish it to be. . . < 1181849920 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it doesn't count unless it's infinite. < 1181849921 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I had a Turing machine here, then the tape would be infinite. < 1181849950 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, I have to settle for a machine that has finite storage. < 1181849966 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need infinite storage to run an infinite pattern! < 1181849985 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe. Not necessarily. < 1181849986 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do when the tape consists of a loop of gliders. < 1181850001 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the simulator's clever enough, it'll find a way. < 1181850011 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Wait, a loop? < 1181850048 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you'd need cleverness to simulate an infinite loop--that is, one that loops but is still infinite. < 1181850065 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An actual loop, not just a repetition. < 1181850101 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But surely there are actual universal computers in the Game of Life. < 1181850143 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1181850145 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been proven. < 1181850181 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ones that have actually been built. < 1181850232 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for the memory requirement, one has been built. < 1181850244 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.igblan.free-online.co.uk/igblan/ca/ < 1181850252 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus proving the possibility a *second* time. < 1181850276 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1181850283 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't know about that Life URM. < 1181850288 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Unlike the finite tape of Paul Rendell's marvellous Turing Machine, the values in the URM's registers are unbounded." < 1181850320 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rendell's is a literal Turing machine, not merely Turing complete. . . < 1181850327 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that URM, apparently, has infinite storage. < 1181850398 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: Happy now? < 1181850409 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1181850465 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I can come up with a *third* proof of Turing completeness for Life (although it is, unfortunately, circular logic). . . < 1181850476 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a pattern called the "unit cell". < 1181850485 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which emulates a single Life cell. < 1181850503 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Placing enough of those patterns together nets you a Life simulator in Life. < 1181850526 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unit cells can be made arbitrarily big... though that's rather obvious, isn't it? < 1181850534 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1181850555 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just iterate the construction < 1181850560 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly. < 1181850682 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now make a unit cell rake! :-) < 1181850832 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make a universal constructor. < 1181850875 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Preferably one with a higher period than the unit cell. < 1181851183 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have periods? < 1181851238 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders universal constructor borders < 1181851292 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it'd probably be a different period for whatever it's constructing. < 1181851309 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless you magically make an O(1) universal constructor) < 1181851338 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, orthogonal strips probably actually aren't that bad for universal constructors. < 1181851425 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would simplify the border thing. Then again, the border thing isn't complicated. < 1181851450 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1181851548 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, people are probably happier with diagonal stuff than orthogonal stuff. < 1181851573 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gliders are more agile than XWSS. < 1181851644 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Borders can look like this, then: http://pastebin.ca/567050 < 1181851729 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# is the constructor exclusion zone. The constructor may not change these cells unless otherwise specified. < 1181851809 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ is the pattern exclusion zone. The constructor may assume that these cells are... hmm, just a minute. < 1181851872 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may assume that these cells are dead unless otherwise specified. < 1181851893 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The constructor goes on the left side. < 1181851904 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And the border extends infinitely in both directions.) < 1181851924 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Generally, "otherwise specified" is the same in both cases. < 1181852014 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The border is only crossed when the constructor and the pattern flash to each other. < 1181852116 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Protocols for flashing these could be called diagonal border flash protocols! < 1181852143 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds fun, doesn't it? < 1181852186 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :testBorder (bx,by,cut) (x,y) = bx*x+by*y >= cut < 1181852195 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-100-83.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1181852250 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Testing whether something's above a line, eh? < 1181852259 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And I'm using "above" loosely here :-P) < 1181852265 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(bx,by) would be orthogonal to the border, cut would be the value at the border < 1181852293 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as a vector) < 1181852363 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally, testing whether something is in a half-space < 1181852384 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that. < 1181852543 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1181852587 0 :nooga!n=nooga@xdsl-6552.lubin.dialog.net.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1181852652 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1181852708 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow! The universal register machine is failing miserably! < 1181852712 0 :Bigcheese!n=blah@adsl-19-120-141.asm.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1181852719 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moooooooooorniiiiiiiiing < 1181852722 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not actually < 1181852725 0 :Bigcheese!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afternoon < 1181852816 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: you would think it would have been tested? < 1181852833 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it's not the pattern that's wrong. < 1181852850 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or do you know that it is? < 1181852851 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: can your life program handle that big patterns? < 1181852859 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1181852875 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been running "Igblan P1 URM" for about 350,000 generations now. < 1181852878 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i know nothing (although i am not from Barcelona) < 1181852894 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...what? < 1181852911 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sneak Fawlty Towers reference) < 1181852915 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This speed is boring. /me speeds it up < 1181852994 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. This pattern doesn't seem to fail miserably after 10,000,000 generations. < 1181853011 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, now it's done. < 1181853072 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, it spit stuff out! < 1181853169 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Life turing machine (not universal) emits vast amounts of gliders < 1181853179 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, enough to make a mess < 1181853512 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really a shame that P30 URM is the only one that fails miserably. < 1181853621 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1181853638 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the biggest and the best, except that it's not the best. < 1181853642 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And maybe not the biggest. < 1181853690 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting how this life stuff is going from magic to engineering < 1181853727 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It used to be magic? < 1181853767 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theory: as technology progresses, things become insufficiently advanced in comparison < 1181853817 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the invention of the Gosper Gun was amazing at the time; there had not been a proof that a population could become unbounded even < 1181853876 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clarke said that any sufficiently advanced technology becomes magic. This is the wrong way round. Any DnD player knows that any sufficiently well-understood magic becomes technology. < 1181853909 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1181853916 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this should be one of the corollaries to Clarke's law < 1181853940 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. < 1181853953 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any sufficient advancement of technology distinguishes things from magic. < 1181853975 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/technology/theory/ in the latter. < 1181854055 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And don't forget these two: "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced" and "any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who do not understand it". < 1181854095 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait a minute, we can combine these to get what we want. "Any magic, no matter how advanced, is technology to those who do understand it." < 1181854111 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Well, maybe not that, quite. < 1181854127 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"No technology, no matter how advanced, is magic to those who do understand it." < 1181854165 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See? I put Freefall to good use! < 1181854209 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For those who favor formatting rules over not being annoying, I put Freefall to good use.) < 1181854254 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I got my one from a page that complained about how DnD magic wasn't "magical" in the supernatural sense, and offered some things to consider in the designing of an RPG magic system. < 1181854277 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: erm, how to you do the underlining < 1181854278 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1181854342 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: depends on the client. < 1181854351 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In ChatZilla, %UFreefall%O < 1181854395 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_hm_ < 1181854405 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, not the same < 1181854436 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my usual method is just underscore before and after < 1181854457 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I see that irssi can actually do proper underlining < 1181854459 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test < 1181854470 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't seem to work. < 1181854507 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here, have a secret message: %CLI < 1181854515 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1181854535 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's probably not actually decodable, so I'll just tell you it says BROCCOLI. < 1181854553 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, bold, 10,03colour, and reverse < 1181854558 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehehe < 1181854563 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: what keys? < 1181854606 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TFM (/usr/share/doc/irssi/formats.txt) dixit: < 1181854612 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -b set bold < 1181854612 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -c#[,#] set foreground and optionally background color < 1181854612 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -o reset all formats to plain text < 1181854612 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -v set inverted color mode < 1181854612 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -_ set underline < 1181854614 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -7 same as -_ < 1181854626 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, ne. < 1181854629 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these will appear verbatim in the editing line, BTW < 1181854629 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lessee < 1181854639 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w00t. < 1181854654 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on some channels, you will get auto-kicked for colour usage < 1181854679 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On others, colour usage is ignored. ;) < 1181854705 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13,12ZOMG PONIES!!! < 1181854717 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(does that blink, BTW?) < 1181854720 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test < 1181854724 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally < 1181854724 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :underlined < 1181854730 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD Slashdotter. < 1181854732 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: Yes. < 1181854792 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the top bit of the background colour sometimes means the same as it does for the foreground colour (bright), and sometimes means dark but with the foreground colour blinking. < 1181855419 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On some channels, color usage is simply blocked. < 1181855486 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7Random test block here. < 1181855519 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a golden opportunity < 1181855551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And an underlined one, too. < 1181855589 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to boldly go where far too many have gone before < 1181855677 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sets mode #esoteric +c < 1181855753 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION summons lament < 1181855768 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION also summons andreou < 1181855786 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And fizzie. And Aardappel and Taaus, whoever they are. < 1181855787 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION summons the Great Cthulhu < 1181855793 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone had to do it < 1181855804 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ia Ia Cthulhu... uh, Something? < 1181855806 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fthagn? < 1181855811 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fhtagn? < 1181855819 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of those, I'm thinking. < 1181855829 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipede it. < 1181855847 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fhtagn, apparently. < 1181856244 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shouldn't there be an apo-strophe in there somewhere? < 1181856484 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why did you stick a hyphen in apostrophe? < 1181856517 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I LIVE < 1181856533 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was there a specific reason for the summons? < 1181856596 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have angered fizzie < 1181856632 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, no, just curious. < 1181856732 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fizzie == Cthulhu? < 1181856748 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(otherwise, we should've just said Ia Ia, Fizzie Fhtagn!) < 1181856864 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Closest I've been to Cthulhu is when I bought an adorable Cthulhu plush doll thing for a friend. < 1181856929 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, then. < 1181856935 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ia Ia, fizzie fhtagn! < 1181857057 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not quite sure what's the proper response to that, but I guess it has something to do with devouring something. < 1181857097 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's some chips. < 1181857238 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yes, freenode had that +c mode which filtered out about all formatting codes, including ANSI escapes. < 1181857354 0 :ChanServ!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :-stm+nc < 1181857369 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if that was the thing I was summoned for. < 1181857375 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1181857399 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all, apparently < 1181857412 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It was. < 1181857419 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This ought to be underlined. < 1181857445 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eep < 1181857458 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you evil censor you! < 1181857472 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :‭‮zomg backwards < 1181857475 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is for Censorship! < 1181857579 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is for Coredump, actually < 1181857582 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of them < 1181857596 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Segmentation fault (core dumped). < 1181857602 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1181857603 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MATLAB always dumps core when I exit it. < 1181857621 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better than when you start < 1181857653 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The apple is delicious! --more-- Core dumped. < 1181857658 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1181857711 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"CommandQ" < 1181857761 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "Segmentation fault (core dumped)." fortune message is evil; I once spent something like 10 minutes trying to figure out what line in my login files had dumped core, before realizing what it was. < 1181857781 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::E < 1181858099 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems fizzie has successfully been summoned. < 1181858101 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As has lament. < 1181858114 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1181858125 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if andreou is on the way. < 1181858145 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never seen andreou talk i don't think < 1181858343 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: a worse one is the tale of a box hwhere everyone was root... < 1181858359 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one guy got the fortune about the bit bucket being full < 1181858373 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is amazing how many things rely on the presence of /dev/null < 1181858391 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that is has correct permissions, user, group, etc < 1181858402 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my favorite feature of lisp right now: quasiquote < 1181858543 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good for macros < 1181858573 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm doing some source to source translations right now and it's very helpful < 1181858642 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: someone deleted /dev/null? < 1181858869 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1181858981 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun. < 1181859017 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems it'd be easier to cat /dev/null > /dev/null < 1181859026 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1181859039 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, I don't know just what > does. What does it do? < 1181859127 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reads from /dev/null eof immediatly < 1181859221 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> re-directs stdout < 1181859267 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/dev/null is opened for writing and reading, separately. neither deletes it or changes its special status < 1181859275 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*nor < 1181859327 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does > concatenate or replace? < 1181859335 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if it replaces, how? < 1181859343 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :replace, but by opening and truncating < 1181859351 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>> appends < 1181859381 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Opens it, deletes all its contents and starts writing, then? < 1181859387 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1181859414 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but since /dev/null is not an ordinary file, truncating it has no effect < 1181859416 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've always felt a bit sorry for /dev/full, because /dev/null is what everyone only talks about. < 1181859446 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :full - always full device -- "Writes to the /dev/full device will fail with an ENOSPC error. This can be used to test how a program handles disk-full errors." < 1181859543 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also a strange sort of sensibility in leaving a dd if=/dev/full of=/dev/null running at a low priority. Gives you a "I'm doing my part to restore the balance!" feeling. < 1181859568 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow i thought you were joking :D < 1181859594 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's that command do? < 1181859648 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'dd' moves bytes; reads from /dev/full always return zeros, so it reads zeros out of /dev/full and writes them to /dev/null, which discards them. < 1181859679 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it's all quite futile: full is never going to run out of zeros, and null isn't going to fill up. But it's the thought that counts. < 1181859710 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But really, all you're doing is throwing away zeros. < 1181859715 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should put them into /dev/zero instead. < 1181859735 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really thing that one already has more than enough zeros in it. < 1181859747 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My God, it's full of zeros! < 1181859762 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's true. < 1181859787 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe if you write enough zeros into /dev/null, one of them will actually get through... < 1181859935 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where to? < 1181860008 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eventually /dev/null will collapse into a black hole, creating a new big bang on the other side < 1181860042 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1181860075 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually whatever you put into /dev/null will be released as heat. < 1181860129 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1181860173 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming your hardware cannot actually keep infinite information, in which case my first explanation will apply. < 1181860263 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My computer can hold infinite information, but only if it's compressed. < 1181860299 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know of a pretty good compression scheme for just these purposes. < 1181860321 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Namely, reverse the input. Reversing the input, naturally, is something that can be undone: just do it again. < 1181860378 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, you can write a program that reverses its input pretty easily. If you pipe /dev/random into it, nothing ever comes out, so you can conclude that /dev/random compresses to the empty file. < 1181860390 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well in principle that compression scheme is as good as it gets < 1181860402 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't tried reversing the empty file, but I'm sure that if I did, I'd get /dev/random. < 1181860427 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, only if you count random infinities of information as actually being infinite. Computable ones can easily be compressed. < 1181860500 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... i guess a compression scheme that actually treated random information has being zero could be useful, since it is only the order in information that is usually interesting < 1181860506 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*as < 1181860632 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relevant link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing < 1181860662 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you call "There's useful information in here. e=SzHr/!]LQ:vMw2jXe/*j38v5Q"TO [bp[n]~c41j#!O3RgCt%&_!6%YrH4pNI..." something that should be treated as zero? < 1181860708 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course not. There's "There's useful information in here." in there. < 1181860775 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose such a scheme would work really bad on already compressed data. < 1181862264 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: However, "There's useful information in here." could be generated by /dev/random. < 1181862291 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not _terribly_ likely. < 1181862315 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1181862316 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "e=SzHr/!]LQ:vMw2jXe/*j38v5Q"TO [bp[n]~c41j#!O3RgCt%&_!6%YrH4pNI" is terribly unlikely also < 1181862322 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, then, nor is anything else. < 1181862453 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, random in this case would mean completely incompressible < 1181862471 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some approximation of compressible < 1181862491 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bunch of printable characters is hardly random, and very easy to compress :) < 1181862507 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... right < 1181862532 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to keep only the compressible part of the information. interesting paradox < 1181862715 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most information would be in text that was chaotic, on the edge of order and disorder. < 1181862757 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Encrypted text. < 1181862814 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing is random. < 1181862858 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, everything is. < 1181862858 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'random' simply refers to the method of generation of data < 1181862865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good encryption is practically indistinguishable from random < 1181862874 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once you have the data, the term 'random' can no longer be applied to it < 1181862896 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good encryption is practically indistinguishable from data produced by a random process < 1181862931 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course a random process can produce any string whatsoever, just as a non-random process can produce any string whatsoever. < 1181862931 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :random has many meanings < 1181862994 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"random" describes the process; "incompressible" describes the usual result < 1181863019 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but randomness is not the only way to generate incompressible results) < 1181863032 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, wait, it is < 1181863034 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1181863043 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1181863074 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"incompressible" only describes a certain string when compressed with a *certain algorithm*. . . < 1181863089 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can create crapola-compression, which makes most results incompressible. < 1181863133 0 :kwertii!n=kwertii@190.48.15.5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1181863199 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: incompressible by _any_ algorithm :) < 1181863225 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no such thing < 1181863241 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no? < 1181863259 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because for any string, you can take an algorithm that produces that string from the empty one < 1181863285 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: if the string was generated by a random process < 1181863314 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One can still produce an algorithm which does if(input == "") output("Random string here."); < 1181863316 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: then that algorithm will be as long as the string, and consist of an 'output' statement... < 1181863348 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose i'm talking about kolmogorov complexity, not compressibility. < 1181863353 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the length of the algorithm is not included < 1181863368 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i definitely am talking about kolmogorov complexity :) < 1181863374 0 :kwertii_!n=kwertii@190.48.15.5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1181863408 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :randomness is a superturing thing < 1181863427 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection reset by peer < 1181863466 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, there isn't any meaningful way to describe data as "random" unless you simply refer to the way it was generated. < 1181863472 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then perhaps you should say what you mean, not assume that we can distill it from the air. < 1181863474 0 :kwertii_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :kwertii < 1181863491 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: if i can't assume that in #esoteric, where can i? :( < 1181863503 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Even here, we have to say what we mean. < 1181863512 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how thoroughly boring. < 1181863522 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What sets us apart is that what we mean produces "Why, god, WHY?!?" as the answer. :p < 1181863594 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grr. . . < 1181863601 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone set -Oslow on my Emacs build. < 1181863644 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :despite all the bad things people say about emacs < 1181863655 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there isn't a single problem with it that an uninstall can't solve. < 1181863684 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: unlike WinHugs < 1181863716 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happens after you uninstall winhugs? :) < 1181863734 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing, the uninstall crashes before removing anything :) < 1181863779 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1181863786 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :useful :) < 1181863788 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infinite strings can be described as being random or not. < 1181863797 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope: how? < 1181863807 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... I think. < 1181863811 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1181863819 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't contradict me at all < 1181863819 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it can be defined at all in any way, it's not random. Otherwise, it is. < 1181863829 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like i said, randomness refers to the process < 1181863836 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jargon file (iirc) lists the meaning "Eight Megs And Constantly Swapping" for EMACS. That particular backronym is perhaps a bit dated; even my personal computing device has 256 times more memory than that. < 1181863838 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when dealing with an infinite string, you're dealing with a process < 1181863845 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you can't have actual infinite information < 1181863850 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed... < 1181863905 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite strings can have average entropy per bit or char < 1181863914 0 :ihope!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Entirely-too Much And Constantly Swapping! < 1181863924 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: which you can't determine < 1181863931 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so that's a problem < 1181863957 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: either the string is generated by a known non-random process, allowing you to calculate the entropy but then of course you know it's not random < 1181863980 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: or it is generated by a random process, in which case you can't ever get the entire string, so you can't calculate its entropy either. < 1181863999 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no but you can calculate it with probability 1 :) < 1181864037 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for suitable random processes < 1181864041 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not 1 < 1181864053 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can only analyze a finite portion of it :) < 1181864066 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not statistically significant < 1181864066 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you analyze the process, not the string < 1181864069 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1181864082 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Said backronym, IIRC, was invented by Stallman. < 1181864093 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you may know Stallman better for his Editor MACroS, written in Teco, and GNU Emacs, written in Elisp) < 1181864095 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: again, if you know the process is random, then you already know the process is random :) < 1181864118 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and if you _don't_, then you can't tell anything by looking at the data produced < 1181864139 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because the data produced is not the "infinite string" we're after) < 1181864182 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... you might be able to converge toward the correct entropy < 1181864255 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"@+" < 1181864511 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: except that, the process being random, you don't know if its behavior isn't going to suddenly change completely < 1181864536 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(true of some non-random processes as well, at least in practice (digits of pi)) < 1181864616 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :memory usage arguments against emacs are completely irrelevant nowadays < 1181864769 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right... it is easy to make a sequence that switches say between two different behaviors at large indices. in fact the entropy would not be clearly mathematically defined then < 1181864783 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*switches repeatedly < 1181865192 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the problems come from the fact that true randomness is superturing and hence cannot be analyzed algorythmically :) < 1181865196 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :algorithmically < 1181865466 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: surely the king of ununinstallability is AOL. Bits of it were floating around for years < 1181865503 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ic < 1181865524 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:27:18 < oerjan> lament: unlike WinHugs