00:02:07 <Sukoshi> Time to eat lunch, then implement unit tests.
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00:10:00 <suifur> Sukoshi: so how far is the project along alreayd?
00:13:43 <RodgerTheGreat> Sukoshi: a little
00:14:14 * suifur played in smalltalk all day
00:14:59 <suifur> smalltalk by example is a pretty good book
00:15:09 <suifur> a taste of smalltalk kind of sucked in my opinion
00:24:29 <Sukoshi> suifur: Yeah, it did.
00:24:34 <Sukoshi> suifur: Joy of Smalltalk is good though.
00:24:46 <Sukoshi> Unit tests are for my other Java project.
00:25:27 <suifur> Sukoshi: i'm starting to see why you like it though
00:25:39 <suifur> Sukoshi: whats your other java project/
00:26:07 <Sukoshi> suifur: It's a practice project before I dive into ST -- a torrent client.
00:26:15 <Sukoshi> suifur: Hopefully it won't suck like Azureus.
00:26:27 <suifur> Sukoshi: haha
00:26:46 <suifur> Sukoshi: I need to implement a ST program of sorts to practice
00:27:37 <Sukoshi> suifur: Yeah. How about an IRC client?
00:27:44 <Sukoshi> suifur: What implementation, by the way?
00:27:45 <suifur> hmmm that could be interesting
00:28:00 <suifur> Sukoshi: i'm playing in squeak
00:28:16 <Sukoshi> suifur: Aha.
00:28:36 <Sukoshi> suifur: You should try GST too, because I don't think we can implement Morphic (unless we implement BitBlt, which we can only do in SDL).
00:28:51 <Sukoshi> (Or OGL.)
00:29:12 <suifur> Gnu smalltalk taht is?
00:30:17 <Sukoshi> Yeh.
00:30:20 <bsmntbombdood> azureus is such a memory hog
00:30:35 <Sukoshi> Why *is* it a memory hog?
00:30:39 <Sukoshi> (It pwnz my RAM flat.)
00:30:49 <lament> do you have azureus, or that vuse thing?
00:30:59 <lament> vuze
00:31:01 <Sukoshi> I'm using btdownloadcurses actually ;)
00:31:10 <suifur> Sukoshi: i think there's a lot of caching thats mostly unnecessary
00:31:23 <Sukoshi> suifur: What does it cache even?
00:31:31 <lament> vuze is the worst piece of software i've seen in a long while
00:31:33 <Sukoshi> suifur: I know one annoying thing Azureus does is it preallocates files.
00:31:36 <lament> usability-wise
00:31:49 <suifur> I think it has to do with caching parts of the files to allow for faster uploading
00:31:57 <suifur> Its been a while since I took any good looks at the code
00:32:45 <Sukoshi> By the way, SmallWorld uses a ST parser pre-compiled from the C version.
00:35:07 <Sukoshi> We'll probably end up doing the same.
00:35:41 <suifur> intersting
00:36:23 <Sukoshi> http://www.smalltalk.org/articles/article_20050929_a1_Bytecode-to-bytecode.html <-- Something else that is fun.
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00:44:19 <suifur> hmmm wonder why that code won't work...
00:45:03 <SimonRC> zzzzzzzzz
00:49:39 <suifur> Sukoshi: any idea why this won't work in gst? http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1184024932.html
00:51:37 <Sukoshi> suifur: Open in the GUI first.
00:51:42 <suifur> gui?
00:51:46 <Sukoshi> Tits, huh? ... :D
00:52:08 <suifur> lol yup
00:52:29 <Sukoshi> http://ozark.hendrix.edu/~burch/cs/360/assn/assn4/using_blox.html
00:53:54 <suifur> how do i run it?
00:55:15 <suifur> bah
00:55:24 <suifur> well i can run it but somethin's wrong with my collection
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01:21:08 <ihope> Apparently, I'm familiarizing myself with this code.
01:21:17 <ihope> I must be, since I'm just staring at it.
01:23:30 <oklopol> what code?
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01:26:12 <ihope> The kilgame code.
01:26:16 <ihope> My kilgame code.
01:29:04 <ihope> Not lament's kilgame code.
01:30:23 <Sukoshi> You killed lament's game?
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01:51:24 <Sukoshi> So, RodgerTheGreat, zbrown ?
01:52:50 <zbrown> Sukoshi: whats up?
01:53:51 <Sukoshi> zbrown: How're you liking ST?
01:54:06 <zbrown> Sukoshi: I like it, definitely not good at it yet, but I like it.
01:54:17 <zbrown> its more the syntax thats slowing me down
01:54:21 <Sukoshi> zbrown: Java uses a lot of ST features, heh.
01:54:33 <zbrown> I understand all the core concepts, its just my lack of proficiency with the syntax
01:54:43 <Sukoshi> Have you not played with other syntaxes before?
01:55:07 <zbrown> I have, just not the way smalltalk does
01:55:19 <zbrown> err not so much the syntax, but rather how you phrase statments I guess
01:55:37 <Sukoshi> Just imagine a steady stream of messages.
01:56:07 <Sukoshi> Most languages define functions as operations that take parameters, you've got to get out of the parameter mode and into message mode.
01:57:21 <zbrown> ya
01:58:50 <zbrown> Sukoshi: http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1184029085.html <--- I can't figure out why that syntax doesn't wokr
02:02:25 <Sukoshi> zbrown: Does it give you a parse error?
02:02:32 <zbrown> ya
02:09:56 <zbrown> Sukoshi: any ideas on that one?
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02:16:33 <Sukoshi> zbrown: <kraehe> |a| a := OrderedCollection new add: 4.3; add: 2.3; add: 6.9; yourself. a do: [ :each | Transcript cr; show: each printString ]!
02:16:37 <Sukoshi> Just got the reply.
02:16:42 <Sukoshi> He said there were many errors.
02:17:52 <zbrown> oh hmmm
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02:20:14 <zbrown> hrm i tried that before or something like it, guess I was missing a few things
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03:59:44 <bsmntbombdood> i should give python a sexp syntax, then implement macros
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10:32:31 <GreaseMonkey> gtg, gnight
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11:50:20 <fax> hi
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13:55:58 <zbrown> hi fax
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16:47:51 <zbrown> Sukoshi: I definitely like smalltalk, haven't written anything major yet, just little apps that do stupid things.
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18:01:28 <Sukoshi> zbrown: Wanna make one for GST?
18:18:16 <zbrown> Sukoshi: what kinda app?
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21:33:18 <Sukoshi> zbrown: IRC client?
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21:33:47 <fax> S-s-s-s-l-o-o-o-w motion conversation :P
21:35:47 <Sukoshi> ;D
21:39:10 <Sukoshi> Is int blah= 5; equvilent to int blah = 5; in Java?
21:39:22 <Sukoshi> Or is blah= some particular to JTest?
21:39:53 <fax> class Foo { void Foo() { int blah= 5; }} *compiles* OK
21:40:01 <fax> so I bet it is the same
21:40:22 <fax> I mean int <variable-name> 5; doesn't make any sense
21:40:39 <oklopol> = can't be part of an identifier
21:40:43 <oklopol> in java
21:41:02 <oklopol> just letters, numbers and $ and _
21:41:19 <fax> letters including unicode!
21:41:23 <oklopol> $ is used for inner classes and such by the compiler, so it's not for humans
21:41:27 <oklopol> don't touch it.
21:41:36 <oklopol> fax: yes, things like äöå
21:41:41 <oklopol> they are very okay.
21:42:05 <oklopol> well, they are technically okay, it's just many editors and the command line environment often screw them up
21:42:15 <zbrown> Sukoshi: should be the same, as far as the irc client, i'll look into it :) i haven't done much IRC programming but that sounds fun
21:42:28 <fax> oklopol: big surprise to me when I found it out :p
21:42:45 <Sukoshi> zbrown: It's a fairly easy project is why I suggested it.
21:43:31 <zbrown> Sukoshi: fair enough. Do we have a timeline or anything for the SmallTalk VM?
21:44:38 <Sukoshi> zbrown: I want to start next week.
21:45:39 <zbrown> Sukoshi: hmmm ok. I'll probably be somewhat less involved than either you or RodgerTheGreat but I'll be involved. I work 14-16 hour days so its hard to find the time to sit down and code on my own stuff.Usually the time I get is the time between experiemental runs
21:45:53 <Sukoshi> Ouch.
21:46:06 <zbrown> I'm a research assistant that writes models
21:46:14 <zbrown> in Java/Scala
21:46:14 <zbrown> ;)
21:46:42 <zbrown> basically the code bitch
21:46:49 <zbrown> if the researchers can't figure it out, I have to lol
21:47:57 <fax> must be tough
21:48:15 <Sukoshi> In Scala, huh? Oooh.
21:48:36 <zbrown> fax: Depends. If the researchers explain the algorithm wrong, then we're bound to have arguments all day
21:48:37 <Sukoshi> I thought Scala was slow/useless.
21:48:42 <zbrown> Sukoshi: hah no
21:48:48 <zbrown> Scala code runs as fast as Java
21:48:51 <Sukoshi> This gives me hope that anything Java people will like instantly!
21:49:16 <zbrown> Sukoshi: I'm picking up Scala as my *easing* into functional programming
21:49:18 <fax> Scala is usually compiled to java bytecode?
21:49:38 <zbrown> I haven't quite got the hang of functional programming down yet so the multi-paradigm-ness of Scala helps
21:49:46 <zbrown> fax: yah, they made a bytecode copmiler for it
21:50:05 <fax> nice
21:50:09 <fax> ooooh
21:50:12 <zbrown> Its a nice language, I really enjoy it
21:50:22 <fax> maybe there is a simple language with an open source →javabytecode compiler
21:50:48 <zbrown> I dunno, Nice is one
21:50:50 <zbrown> I think
21:50:58 <zbrown> Nice is pretty minimal and simple and it compiles to java bytecode
21:51:21 <fax> cool
21:51:36 <fax> :D
21:51:37 <oklopol> sounds nice
21:51:39 <fax> does look simple
21:51:43 <fax> http://nice.sourceforge.net/language.html
21:51:58 <fax> going to have a look at the code
21:53:00 <oklopol> whuz the intersection of nice and java?
21:53:29 <oklopol> except for the funxxxion creation without explicit scoping curly brackets
21:53:51 <zbrown> Sukoshi: What I may actually end up doing as my practice for SmallTalk is rewriting one of our models in SmallTalk, that would probably give me a good feel for it ;)
21:54:48 <fax> oklopol: intersection?
21:55:00 <oklopol> differenceeeee
21:56:19 <oklopol> err
21:56:23 <oklopol> wtf not intersection
21:56:26 <oklopol> lool
21:56:54 <fax> hehe
21:57:01 <oklopol> i guess i mean it's complement
21:57:08 <oklopol> don't know what that's called
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22:02:06 <Sukoshi> zbrown: Heh.
22:04:35 <oerjan> mutual difference
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22:21:30 <oklokok> oerjan: thanks, doesn't that kinda collide with set difference?
22:21:34 <oklokok> hmm
22:21:35 <oklokok> not really
22:23:16 <lament> 'intersection' sounds right to me
22:23:38 <lament> an intersection of two sets is the elements contained in both sets
22:23:57 <lament> if you mean difference
22:24:13 <lament> then i'm afraid there's no name
22:24:50 <lament> but here's an article about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetric_difference
22:25:09 <lament> i know the triangle symbol, but i've never heard "symmetric difference" before.
22:25:46 <lament> i had to prove a bunch of stuff about that operation on some analysis homework
22:26:15 <oerjan> argh, imprecise memory!
22:26:41 <oerjan> it's essentially the set version of xor
22:28:50 <oklokok> yeah, oklotalk uses the same symbol for both
22:28:52 <oklokok> ...
22:29:10 <oklokok> have you heard about oklotalk yet, it's a language i've been on recently.
22:29:18 <Sukoshi> lament: The exclusion?
22:29:51 <oerjan> only a few hundred times >;D
22:30:42 <oklokok> heh
22:30:56 <oklokok> hmm
22:31:08 <oklokok> i forgot all about a new kind of science
22:31:11 <oklokok> i'll read it now
22:31:14 <oklokok> all of it
22:31:41 <oerjan> from the start? O_O
22:31:56 <lament> don't read it, it's very long and doesn't contain much.
22:32:04 <Sukoshi> I'm reading it.
22:32:25 <Sukoshi> When does the actual talking about physical modelling begin?
22:33:41 <lament> Never.
22:40:00 <oklokok> lament: it seems it's pretty empty, but it'd be cool to have read a book this long :)
22:40:19 <oklokok> oerjan: no, from where i left
22:40:51 <lament> oklokok: read "In search of lost time", or "War and Peace", or even "GEB: EGB"
22:41:48 <oerjan> oh, so your amnesia is not complete :)
22:42:06 <lament> but that can be fixed
22:42:55 <oerjan> read "Non-commutative geometry".
22:43:36 <oerjan> just don't expect to understand anything of it.  at all.
22:44:20 <oklokok> lament: i don't like ...what's it called... prose?
22:44:23 <oklokok> that much
22:44:24 <oklokok> i mean
22:44:27 <oklokok> non scientific stuff
22:44:42 <oklokok> oerjan: that sounds like fun :P
22:44:55 <oklokok> how long a book?
22:45:11 <oerjan> i don't remember, except that it is fairly big.
22:45:18 <oklokok> you read it?
22:45:28 <oerjan> no.
22:46:32 <oklokok> tried?
22:46:46 <oerjan> no.  i am not that masochistic.
22:46:47 <oklokok> i'll dl it, though i'll try and finish ankos
22:46:54 <oklokok> heh
22:47:17 <Sukoshi> STUPID JUNIT
22:47:20 <Sukoshi> GAHRRR
22:48:13 <Sukoshi> Or, hm. Maybe not stupid.
22:48:27 <fax> J-J-J-J-UNIT
22:48:59 <oerjan> i remember seeing another (physics) book, "Gravitation".  you could guess the name from its size.
22:49:52 <oerjan> (it's about general relativity, black holes and stuff)
22:50:03 <Sukoshi> Gravitation is also a very popular piece of softcore Yaoi.
22:50:07 <Sukoshi> Mmmm. Hawt boyz.
22:50:28 <Sukoshi> (I'm sorry, but you were just ASKING for that :D)
22:51:07 <oklokok> my ex likes yaoi
22:51:11 <oklokok> if it's what i think it is
22:51:56 <fax> http://www.jacquelinemarr.co.uk/Gravitation.jpg
22:52:21 <Sukoshi> Yaoi == boy-boy love.
22:52:27 <bsmntbombdood> hawt
22:52:41 <Sukoshi> Mmhmm.
22:53:03 <oklokok> then it's what i thought it is
22:54:02 <oklokok> i've never liked hentai and the likes
22:54:20 <oklokok> which i'm pretty sure y'all find most interesting
22:54:21 <lament> what, er, gender is your ex?
22:54:29 <oklokok> girl :D
22:54:41 <oklokok> she liked all kinds of stuff
22:54:42 <fax> heh
22:54:51 <lament> and she, er, likes graphic depiction of gay boys?
22:54:57 <oklokok> yes
22:55:01 <fax> lament: Do you find that odd?
22:55:03 <bsmntbombdood> who doesn't?
22:55:04 <Sukoshi> Not necessarily graphic.
22:55:07 <lament> creepy.
22:55:12 <lament> fax: yes.
22:55:13 <oklokok> bsmntbombdood has a point.
22:55:15 <fax> how?
22:55:43 <fax> I mean like 90% of straight men like girl girl...
22:55:52 <oklokok> she was bi
22:56:04 <oklokok> ...which i also think is very important
22:56:05 <oklokok> to tell
22:56:22 <oklokok> read? yes ->
22:56:43 <lament> fax: that's different. Genders aren't symmetrical.
22:57:22 <bsmntbombdood> and 90% of straight women don't like boy-boy
22:57:45 <bsmntbombdood> or they're just too embarrassed or prude to say it
22:58:10 <Sukoshi> People in America are too prude to say they don't like boy-boy?
22:58:15 <Sukoshi> *Cough*
22:58:18 <lament> bsmntbombdood: no, i'm afraid they just plain don't like it.
22:58:32 <oklokok> let the boy have his dreams!
22:58:58 <bsmntbombdood> lament: that's what i said
23:01:40 <oklokok> weird that 3 ppl would miss that "don't"
23:01:41 <oklokok> :\
23:01:46 <oklokok> if i understood correctly.
23:01:53 <oklokok> okay
23:01:57 <oklokok> sukoshi read it right
23:02:02 <oklokok> i just read wrong another time.
23:04:02 <bsmntbombdood> i said it wrong
23:04:25 <bsmntbombdood> 90% of straight women don't like boy-boy or they're just too embarrassed or prude to say they do like it
23:08:12 <Sukoshi> I don't see what's creepy about it, but I guess the gender divide does that.
23:08:31 <Sukoshi> But yeah, bsmntbombdood I would think is true.
23:10:51 <Sukoshi> DARN YOU JAVA PACKAGING SYSTEM, DARRRNNN YOUUUUU.
23:11:11 <oklokok> Sukoshi: what exactly do you mean by modeling physics?
23:11:21 <oklokok> after page 500 it's all physics
23:11:33 <oklokok> (i'mn 525 so i might be lying)
23:11:38 <oklokok> *on
23:12:35 <bsmntbombdood> s/PACKAGING SYSTEM//
23:13:36 <Sukoshi> oklokok: Ah. Page 500. Alright.
23:14:16 <Sukoshi> I must go back to Lisp/Smalltalk. I cannot take this imperative madness :\
23:14:21 <fax> Sukoshi: I agree
23:14:24 <Sukoshi> Errr, not imperative, but this, blehhh ness.
23:14:30 <Sukoshi> It's so ... unpolished in ... so many ways.
23:14:39 <fax> its XML ENTERPRISE
23:14:44 <Sukoshi> :(
23:14:45 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropodermic_bibliopegy
23:15:20 <fax> cool lament :D
23:19:49 <Sukoshi> Finally. I got JUnit working.
23:20:04 <oklokok> Sukoshi: what i mean is there is a lot of physics
23:20:12 <Sukoshi> oklokok: Yay :)
23:20:12 <oklokok> there's a lot of it alllll about
23:20:21 <Sukoshi> oklokok: Anything on electrics yet?
23:20:29 <oklokok> not really :\
23:20:40 <Sukoshi> If this was ST, I'd just make unit testing based on a test message to the object.
23:20:47 <oklokok> but i'll read on, we'll see.
23:20:50 <Sukoshi> But nooo, this is stupid inflexible compiled language.
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23:23:16 <oklokok> err sebbu abo?
23:23:19 <oklokok> turku?
23:23:26 <oklokok> oh nevermind
23:23:29 <oklokok> fr
23:27:38 <Sukoshi> Hey: Check out Kawa. It looks helpful.
23:27:41 <oerjan> oklokok: you should not be on the computer when you cannot see the letters o_o
23:28:40 <fax> why?
23:28:43 <fax> Sukoshi: SISC
23:28:58 <fax> (I want people to use SISC instead of Kawa in the hope that they improve it :P)
23:31:49 <Sukoshi> No no no.
23:32:01 <Sukoshi> Kawa is a bytecode backend. Scheme has just been *implemented* for Kawa.
23:32:23 <fax> ;_;
23:32:53 <Sukoshi> Yeah. I think Kawa has done much of the heavy lifting for us. It compiles classes to Java bytecodes too.
23:32:57 <fax> oh wait a sec
23:32:59 <fax> thats awesome
23:33:20 <oklokok> oerjan: i do see most of them
23:33:22 <Sukoshi> And since Smalltalk is *so* similar to Java's object hierarchy, it should be a breeze to port most of the ST-80 stdlib.
23:33:25 <oklokok> the important ones
23:37:46 <fax> I cant uynderstand kawa
23:37:55 <fax> gnu/bytecode/*.java
23:38:03 <fax> they dont generate bytecode :S
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23:50:50 <fax> Sukoshi: are you reading Kawa?
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