< 1184285778 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :Esoteric programming language design and deployment | FORUM AND WIKI: http://esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/ | PASTEBIN: http://pastebin.ca/ < 1184285788 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :Esoteric programming language design and deployment | FORUM AND WIKI: http://esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com | PASTEBIN: http://pastebin.ca < 1184286111 0 :RedDak!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1184287702 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1184293516 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes to bed
< 1184294293 0 :Tritonio!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Bye..." < 1184299144 0 :GreaseMonkey!n=ihavdeb4@222-154-161-215.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1184300273 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: shouldn't the log link point straight to esoteric's logs? < 1184300591 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the most computational power possible in a language whose programs always halt? < 1184300652 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a language where the halting problem is always solvable < 1184301720 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1184301756 0 :RodgerTheGreat!n=Rodger@wads-5-232-125.resnet.mtu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1184302169 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the highest computability class i can think of is PDA < 1184302678 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, what's PDA? < 1184302746 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :push down automata < 1184302775 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1184302788 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the max shifts function is computable on finite memorys < 1184302804 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's a turing machine with a finite tape < 1184302908 0 :GregorR-L!n=gregor@c-76-27-232-8.hsd1.or.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1184303482 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1184303493 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: i think you can get infinitely close to being tc by n nested for loops. < 1184303499 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where lim n->inf < 1184303615 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfor, where [...] is for(i : 0 -> current_cell's_value){...}, with i stored on every cycle into the cell that was the current cell at the beginning of the loop < 1184303639 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like inventing brainfuckish language stubs on the fly < 1184303988 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do people get so freaked out when I put my cat in the garbage can? :P < 1184305031 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to kill it? < 1184305046 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, perhaps they like cats < 1184305075 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, then why would you do that? < 1184305075 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1184305264 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not to kill it. < 1184305267 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For laffs. < 1184305280 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ever see a cat try to jump out of a container that's just baaaaaarely too big for it to jump out of? < 1184305473 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds sick and mean, but can you film that? :) < 1184305533 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1184305546 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahahah < 1184305551 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not THAT mean :P < 1184305570 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I spin my other cat on the hardwood floor, and she loves me. < 1184305699 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, women. < 1184306087 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And my cat who's terrified of me is so terrified of thunder that she's laying in my lap right now :P < 1184306538 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i loves my ca < 1184306540 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1184306697 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: huh? < 1184307451 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: huh what? < 1184307461 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : bsmntbombdood: i think you can get infinitely close to being tc by n nested for loops. < 1184307478 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus the line after that < 1184307486 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly was unclear? < 1184307493 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything < 1184307523 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i think you can get infinitely close to being tc by having n for-loops nested, where lim n->inf < 1184307538 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really don't know any other way to say that. < 1184307599 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... you can't answer the question you asked, because you can always get closer and closer to turing completeness by adding another nested for-loop < 1184307698 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where for-loop stands for an iteration of a preset length here < 1184307865 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pretty sure i'm being clear here, but i haven't really slept for a while because of uberman < 1184307880 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so everything's a bit hazy and different < 1184307887 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pizza -> < 1184308143 0 :puzzlet_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1184310095 0 :GregorR-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1184312079 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the ability to check a Java class's class at runtime usable without importing reflection libs or sommat? < 1184312572 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1184312671 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay. < 1184312679 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :getClass() < 1184312705 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will return the ref to the class object < 1184312720 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah see. < 1184312732 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gawrsh, sometimes I miss my C-isms. < 1184312741 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hearts Union/Struct combo.
< 1184312781 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION always found that horrible
< 1184312789 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps in a good way though < 1184312815 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I would *prefer* a dynamic language. < 1184312821 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But a union/struct combo comes close. < 1184312836 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a convenient way to determine runtime type. < 1184312841 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dynamic as in... dynamically typed? < 1184312849 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1184312869 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, java's is a lot clearer than that < 1184312883 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is a union/struct combo not clear? < 1184312941 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... i guess it is < 1184312947 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just it feels like a hack there < 1184312989 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one, you'll have the same size for every object you keep in the var < 1184312999 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define T_INT 0 #define T_STR 1 ... typedef struct __mytype_t { int type; union data { my_int *i; my_str *s } } < 1184313001 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because an union is always the size of the biggest < 1184313014 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's true. < 1184313028 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess pointers get around that pretty well < 1184313038 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1184313049 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh-noes. The largest type is a ... pointer! < 1184313054 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, i find OO clearer when doing stuff like that < 1184313102 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not gonna argue though, because i don't feel like saying anything intelligent right now < 1184313115 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, ankos is soon read < 1184313129 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1184313137 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. I just accidentally used a pointer in Java. < 1184313141 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i realized it's not really 1304 pages... the lase 500 are notes and summaries etc :P < 1184313150 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*last < 1184313172 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh :P < 1184313174 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good though. < 1184313187 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Notes are needed for a book like this. < 1184313196 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no fucking way i'm gonna read those, gets too complicated for me to be interested for that long :D < 1184313254 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he proves the stuff he would just tell the reader earlier in the book and such < 1184313319 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that stuff. < 1184313339 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who doesn't < 1184313349 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You. < 1184313351 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1184313352 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1184313396 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i'm just too stupid to be able to read fast enough to keep interested < 1184313494 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not certain i'm not gonna read the notes, i often also read the glossary < 1184313519 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just probable, i have tons of other stuff to read :| < 1184313561 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sleep -> < 1184313599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1184313600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1184314121 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1184316680 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Do you like Guy Steele? < 1184316694 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like him? < 1184316701 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've read some of his papers < 1184316742 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean? < 1184316791 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, as a person/his acheivements. < 1184316794 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's the co-author of Scheme. < 1184316828 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1184316837 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still don't know what you mean < 1184316944 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you respect him? < 1184316981 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would i know? < 1184316998 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah. < 1184317006 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You respect a person through their acheivements, you know? < 1184317014 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1184317027 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then how do you respect someone? < 1184317034 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just do < 1184317040 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1184317045 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you getting at? < 1184317052 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Sigh* Nothing anymore. < 1184317058 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever < 1184317168 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's a celebrity < 1184317385 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He is? < 1184317405 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1184317418 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1184317436 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enriching conversation < 1184317444 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1184320783 0 :RedDak!n=dak@87.18.81.71 JOIN :#esoteric < 1184320999 0 :RedDak!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1184322033 0 :ehird`!n=test@user-514f618c.l4.c3.dsl.pol.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1184322345 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1184322825 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :Esoteric programming language design and deployment | FORUM AND WIKI: http://esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | PASTEBIN: http://pastebin.ca < 1184323191 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n nested for loops gives you what is known as the primitive recursive functions. Among other things, they do not include Ackermann's function. < 1184323317 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dependently typed languages often are terminating on a higher level than that. < 1184323460 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Coq theorem prover for example is terminating, but allows any function you can prove terminating in its proof system, which is apparently comparable to set theory in strength, but different. < 1184323511 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess this shows that the upper bound intertwines Godel's theorem and the halting theorem. < 1184323677 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I.e. you eventually cannot know whether you have found a still stronger terminating system, or blown up by introducing something non-terminating.) < 1184323869 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye everyone < 1184323900 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"custom quit messages --> xchat.org <-- hydrairc sucks" < 1184324862 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I put JumpFuck on the wiki. http://esolangs.org/wiki/JumpFuck < 1184327165 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1184328327 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=) < 1184333234 0 :RedDak!n=dak@87.18.81.71 JOIN :#esoteric < 1184335019 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :self-modifying brainfuck is fun: [<]>[.>] < 1184335123 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, make that +[<]>[.>] < 1184335183 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, < 1184335192 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<[<]>[.>] < 1184335959 0 :RedDak!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1184336919 0 :RedDak!n=dak@87.18.81.71 JOIN :#esoteric < 1184339358 0 :RedDak!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1184339819 0 :sekhmet!n=pez@wilug/madlug/sekhmet JOIN :#esoteric < 1184340115 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION smells pansymode brainfuck.
< 1184341682 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-080-228-180-021.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1184343565 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1184343671 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1184343685 0 :jix!n=jix@dyndsl-080-228-189-072.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1184343877 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-49-136.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1184346397 0 :lament!n=lament@S010600110999ad06.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1184347223 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE TIME HAS COME! < 1184347393 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh noes! < 1184347660 0 :RodgerTheGreat!n=Rodger@wads-5-232-125.resnet.mtu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1184347907 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOW the time has come. < 1184347912 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for some food) < 1184347945 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that food has joined? < 1184348201 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :error: semantic mismatch < 1184348247 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not. < 1184348267 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, right now sliced bread will do. < 1184354078 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it nice how capital letters are almost exclusively reserved for SHOUTING, as opposed to capitalizing words? < 1184354125 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this could eventually lead to real change in grammar < 1184354159 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where capital letters would be used only for emphasis, just like cursive < 1184354197 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(reverting to the situation existing in the middle ages) < 1184354613 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently for the past few hundred years there has been a trend (in English) to capitalize fewer and fewer words < 1184355082 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1184356163 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@208-180-8-45-static-hsb.provalue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1184356222 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sal'. < 1184356584 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :salve < 1184356770 0 :test__!n=test@user-514f618c.l4.c3.dsl.pol.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1184356771 0 :ehird`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1184356785 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1184357577 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Capitalizationness is godliness. < 1184357650 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1184357659 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1184357676 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even your nick is capitalized. < 1184357682 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lowercase unpuncuatedness is godliness < 1184357716 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the style of english prose that makes it look like chinese < 1184357731 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these two lines are an example < 1184357795 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :commas are avoided and so are big words < 1184357827 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer the more elegantly punctuated and capitalized styles. < 1184357828 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where big refers to many morphemes in one word < 1184357852 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in chinese every character is one morpheme < 1184357860 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course english can not be so pure < 1184357872 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one it needs plural markers < 1184357936 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sukoshi likes big words and complex phrases but really he is just trying to look smart < 1184357978 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I *am* smart ;) < 1184357995 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And to repeat *again*, I'm not a he. < 1184358013 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha that is often the assumption one makes when one sees complex language < 1184358017 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :justified ? no . < 1184358037 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry for not guessing your gender right < 1184358037 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1184358055 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's like saying ``women are stupid''. < 1184358068 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do not understand < 1184358108 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is like to say women are stupid ? < 1184358132 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :women are stupid < 1184358138 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's nothing special < 1184358164 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty average < 1184358181 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid is a loaded word < 1184358207 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as not precise < 1184358232 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just as smart is < 1184358275 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example to argue about english style on I R C is stupid < 1184358352 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's stupid to write IRC as I R C < 1184358353 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is not a thing most women do :) < 1184358375 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see already you are arguing about english style :) < 1184358471 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1184358476 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i might ride to boulder today < 1184359168 0 :RedDak!n=dak@87.18.81.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1184359385 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: are you s8r boy? < 1184359390 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sk8r < 1184360249 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do sk8rs boulder? < 1184360304 0 :RodgerTheGreat!n=Rodger@wads-5-232-125.resnet.mtu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1184360316 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know what's boulder :D < 1184360343 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bouldering is a particular form of recreational climbing < 1184360346 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i guessed, "boulderi" is a finnish skating term i think < 1184360349 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1184360350 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1184360353 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's that as well < 1184360465 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that i come to think of it, it's not a skating term here < 1184360475 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1184360567 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Verbose verbiage can indicate either intelligence *or* mere egotism. < 1184360585 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'd argue that Sukoshi is damned smart, not merely trying to look that way. :p < 1184360609 0 :Sukoshi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1184360653 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION also hits on Sukoshi a bit
< 1184360682 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, arguing about English style anywhere is generally a good idea; how else are we to avoid some of the horrendous abuses of our language, such as "omg! im smrt!" < 1184360695 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what's wrong with these "abuses"? < 1184360713 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :roflzomg < 1184360728 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: What's wrong with "*NULL=2;"? < 1184360744 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that... doesn't work? < 1184360763 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION decides that the 4D shape (x*x + y*y <= 1 && w*w + z*z <= 1) is very hard to imagine.
< 1184360771 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vi vidas? < 1184360792 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: I'd say it hit "hard to imagine" with the mention of "4D". < 1184360820 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: no < 1184360830 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: compared to the other shapes < 1184360832 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: "omg! im smrt!" does work :) < 1184360845 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Nope. < 1184360852 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Care to define "smrt"? < 1184360855 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smart? < 1184360859 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Care to define "im"? < 1184360862 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm? < 1184360872 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_%28linguistics%29 < 1184360873 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oxford English Dictionary, please. < 1184360889 0 :RodgerTheGreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1184360905 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Certain registers are damned stupid. < 1184360909 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: human languages are for human communication. Not all of information conveyed is purely "verbal" (ie conveyed through definitions) < 1184360929 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the segment pointers, for example < 1184360935 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: if you don't understand non-verbal communication, well, that's a common problem many geeks have :) < 1184360954 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I, unlike most geeks, have an *excuse* for such. :p < 1184360991 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just don't describe it as "stupid" < 1184361085 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what's your excuse? < 1184361113 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :language is a very powerful tool that works on several levels, not all of which rely only on "word definitions" < 1184361115 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger%27s_Syndrome I'd say that's a fairly good one. < 1184361195 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger%27s_Syndrome#Speech_and_language_differences < 1184361204 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"People with AS typically have a highly pedantic way of speaking, using a far more formal language register than appropriate for a context." < 1184361205 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, that just means you're a proper etgek. < 1184361206 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have that, pikhq? < 1184361241 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION considers his own tendancy to try to introduce evidentials to English.
< 1184361274 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use IMHO, ISRT, IIRC, AFAICT, AFAIK, etc a lot in real life as well as online. < 1184361276 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: Yeah. < 1184361306 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: it's a nice feature, although that's not a very good implementation of it < 1184361315 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Tony Attwood refers to a particular child's skill at inventing expressions, e.g., "tidying down" (the opposite of tidying up) or "broken" (when referring to a baby brother who cannot walk or talk).[" < 1184361316 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1184361323 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't all children do that? < 1184361330 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: i think an alternate mood for "to be" would be nice < 1184361341 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my mother has a book containing those of mine :\ < 1184361345 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like 60 pages < 1184361351 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: that conveys "my opinion" < 1184361359 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Is that the thing Spanish slightly has? < 1184361364 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: ! < 1184361371 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: no, spanish doesn't have it, but some languages do. < 1184361372 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: that must be where you get it from. < 1184361376 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: it's more a notebook... < 1184361382 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hand-written < 1184361390 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: define "mood" in this contet < 1184361393 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*context < 1184361405 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: there's some african (?) language with indicators for "i've seen it happen", "somebody told me about it", "i just think so", "it's possible" < 1184361421 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :german has it < 1184361425 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that those were evidentials. < 1184361462 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: do you have über skills? < 1184361476 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rainman is god. < 1184361477 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: At what? < 1184361479 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: right, that one just had more stuff < 1184361480 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1184361498 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, "Rain Man" is a highly inaccurate depiction of autism at best. < 1184361500 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: and it was integrated into the verbs (i think) < 1184361505 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i know :D < 1184361507 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: yup < 1184361533 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be convenient in english < 1184361535 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've just always wanted to be like that < 1184361542 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Bach iis the best composer ever" < 1184361565 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Bach is considered by many as one of the greatest composers" < 1184361590 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(iis being the hypothetical new verb) < 1184361591 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: {{ weasel }} < 1184361613 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"(SimonRC) oklokok: that must be where you get it from." <<< get what, by the way? :D < 1184361614 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I aam smart" < 1184361656 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: well, if you don't see the importance of different registers, i guess you just have to take my word for it :) < 1184361703 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: What, like I can do anything else? < 1184361729 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yes, you could just call them "damned stupid", but that would not be very productive. < 1184361748 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Granted. < 1184361763 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION only calls the usage of certain ones damned stupid, anyways. :p
< 1184361816 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after reading ankos, i'm even more sure natural selection sucks and has not created the perfect language < 1184361833 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that a good language will override english some day < 1184361841 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1184361859 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: "im smrt" conveys informality, self-irony, self-deprecation, all in two short words < 1184361875 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: er, and also familiarity with American pop culture. < 1184361880 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a lot of stuff. < 1184361894 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and laziness, in some cases < 1184361902 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Or it may convey informality, stupidity, and a blatant disregard for people reading it. (of course, this depends upon context) < 1184361909 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: certainly. < 1184361917 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: in both cases, it's useful information < 1184361938 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: Jes; tia lingvo estos Esperanton, mi pensas. ;) < 1184361989 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't have a perfect language < 1184362012 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: No, but you can have one much better than English. < 1184362031 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, by trying to minimize difficulty, you can't avoid lowering expressivity < 1184362043 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and by trying to maximize expressivity you can't avoid increasing difficulty < 1184362065 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i like English a lot < 1184362070 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One can at least encourage a few things such as having internal consistency. < 1184362078 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: esperanto isn't that good, judging by what i've read about it < 1184362085 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ah, but internal consistency often negatively affects expressivity :) < 1184362089 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know squat about the language itself though < 1184362095 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: English is wonderful for expressiveness, but it's consistency sucks. < 1184362103 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: tell me about it. < 1184362108 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Granted, there is some level of trade-off involved in that. . . < 1184362115 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the thing < 1184362118 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there're always trade-offs < 1184362121 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But could we at *least* have a decent writing system? < 1184362128 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hard < 1184362133 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in English) < 1184362142 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a decent writing system is presumably phonetic < 1184362157 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's hard while using A-Z. < 1184362160 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, a few generations and people won't be taught to talk anymore < 1184362162 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can't have that easily because 1) we have a LOT of phonemes, and 2) differences between dialects < 1184362165 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's overrated anyway < 1184362176 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's 30-something phonemes, and 26 graphemes. < 1184362190 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: Dubious. < 1184362194 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: how is it hard getting a character for every phonem? :\ < 1184362197 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: differences between dialects is the killer < 1184362204 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: True. < 1184362208 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: and the changes the language undergoes over time < 1184362209 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, there is already a phonetic alphabet < 1184362224 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English's writing system once *was* phonetic. . . < 1184362250 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one possibility would be to _always_ write phonetically and have no orthography < 1184362250 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but no one kept it that way < 1184362257 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, then came the change from Middle English to Modern English, changing pronounciations while largely leaving spellings intact. . . < 1184362258 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the world sucked back then < 1184362259 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now < 1184362260 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that you write exactly as you say < 1184362272 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then dictionaries would be almost impossible :) < 1184362277 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1184362288 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the same word could be spelled in many different ways < 1184362294 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1184362294 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on the pronunciation of the speaker < 1184362299 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1184362303 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Or have one set of 'formal' phonetics for writing purposes, pissing off various English-speaking countries no matter what. < 1184362303 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that's a minor problem < 1184362315 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why teach multiple pronunciations < 1184362316 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yeah, that would be pretty bad < 1184362333 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: the real reason is that english is trying to break apart into several languages < 1184362346 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I say it'd be *nice* to have a better writing system, but damned difficult to pull of. < 1184362350 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/of/off/ < 1184362361 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yes, and i'll agree that english is just not very good for this < 1184362363 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if you want to use english < 1184362374 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see anything in it worth keeping < 1184362379 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll stop trolling now :) < 1184362385 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1184362394 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: something like hawaiian can easily have a good writing system :) < 1184362396 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I'd argue that that effect is being signifigantly reduced with the increase in international communications. < 1184362439 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: There's plenty of things in English worth keeping. . . Like the huge number of speakers at present. :p < 1184362447 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not that that helped, say, Latin. . .) < 1184362453 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :latin didn't die < 1184362455 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :latin evolved :) < 1184362466 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Latin evolved into different branches. < 1184362472 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1184362479 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows what would have happened if they had internet < 1184362493 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can guess. < 1184362526 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :english is still a nice language < 1184362542 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"\/3|\| \/1|) \/1(!!!" < 1184362553 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all "reforms" would just lead to it being a bit easier to learn < 1184362565 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since i have already learned it, i don't care :) < 1184362844 0 :RodgerTheGreat!n=Rodger@wads-5-232-125.resnet.mtu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1184363238 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, cpressey contributed to the wiki today < 1184363292 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION notes how common asperger's syndrome is in channels like this
< 1184363355 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: I think it's near 100%. :p < 1184363364 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1184363453 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people have told me i might be autistic when i've recited 60 digits of pi xD < 1184363470 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a pretty supernatural talent. < 1184363479 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1184363521 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some day i'll learn the rest. < 1184363530 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that joke just never gets old) < 1184363538 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and it's never funny) < 1184363559 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE LAST DIGIT OF PI IS 3 (in base reverse-10) < 1184363562 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1184363575 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The last digit of pi is 0! (in base pi) < 1184363585 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with writing pi in base reverse-10, is that you can't really start. < 1184363596 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i understand, there's a controversy about whether aspergers even exists. < 1184363635 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, bullshit - only idiots tend to argue against its existance < 1184363648 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is very high on the "exists" scale < 1184363649 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: There's also a controversy about whether we landed on the moon. < 1184363720 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :autism and asperger's syndrome are both very real, rooted in reality things < 1184363777 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes i wonder if the people in irc are real < 1184363785 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd be weird < 1184363796 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes i wonder if the people in the world are real SPOILER: no we're part of the matrix < 1184363796 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: do we call stupidity a "syndrome"? < 1184363807 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, Are you comparing Asperger's to stupidity? < 1184363811 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, Because if so, shut the hell up. < 1184363825 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: yes, i am. < 1184363845 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously speaking, i've never really believed in any syndromes < 1184363870 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why start calling it a syndrome when someone gets very bad at something and suddenly start accepting it < 1184363886 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The collective IQ of this room just dropped a few places. < 1184363901 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1184363931 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pretty bad at pretty much everything other than programming < 1184363942 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm just called stupid < 1184363945 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1184363950 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what i'm saying < 1184363954 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't that be a disorder < 1184363954 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should we call stupidity a syndrome? :) < 1184363964 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was an article about that < 1184363965 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could name it in honour of oklokok < 1184363968 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: No, we should call it punishable by death. :p < 1184363998 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, How about naming it after "People who refuse to believe that very real syndromes exist international"? < 1184364008 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then we'd even have a spokesperson! < 1184364014 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://newsbiscuit.com/article/dyslexic-child-was-stupid-as-well < 1184364015 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1184364029 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: stupidity is also very real. < 1184364038 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: i repeat, should we then call it a "syndrome"? < 1184364041 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1184364045 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's great logic < 1184364053 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. X is real. 2. We should call X a syndrome. < 1184364056 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: okay then, what is the essential difference? < 1184364065 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. Lament is real. 2. We should call lament a syndrome. < 1184364076 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. Your mother is real. 2. We should call your mother a syndrome. < 1184364080 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shut up already < 1184364082 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess stupidity arises from the surroundings, not the physical brain itself < 1184364083 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1184364088 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either argue seriously, or don't argue at all < 1184364100 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: many people claim that for aspergers, as well. < 1184364110 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: and many people disagree with that for stupidity. < 1184364139 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, Your arguments are silly. My retorts are silly. < 1184364143 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree with both those, and on the other hand i don't see a crucial difference between those anyway. < 1184364164 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: i'm arguing in good faith. < 1184364184 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, You're comparing Asperger's to stupidity -- doesn't sound like good faith to me < 1184364213 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: i'm not saying people with aspergers are stupid. :) < 1184364270 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously -- Asperger's and autism are real, and you have no real claims to back up the position that it is not < 1184364273 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: facts: both are obviously real problems affecting people in visible ways. Both are likely partly physiological in nature. One is called a syndrom and the other, well, tough luck. < 1184364281 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"then stupidity should be a syndrome!" is circular reasoning < 1184364318 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there some problem with my facts? :) < 1184364344 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there must be a feature of aspergers that makes it more worthy of clinical attention; what is it? < 1184364346 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, i could give test__ an article i wrote about this if i'd actually written it on the computer < 1184364347 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger%27s_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism Educate yourself < 1184364353 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: i know what they are < 1184364365 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evidently you don't know enough. < 1184364383 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: you haven't exactly explained why the fact those are physiological somehow makes them more acceptable < 1184364390 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(besides, i don' ttihnk i ever mentioned autism) < 1184364435 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: stupidity could well be physiological in part < 1184364453 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: High-function autism ~= Asperger's. < 1184364473 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: indeed, but you don't need to use that card before test__ has even explained that. < 1184364495 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, Asperger's is a high-functioning autism for all reasonable purposes. < 1184364508 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: that would be the case if he were actually arguing in a more or less logical fashion, which he isn't < 1184364509 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: Thus why I said "~=". . . < 1184364512 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i _assume_ the crucial difference is physiological-arising from the surroiundings < 1184364513 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: instead he's just insulting me < 1184364516 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*surroundings < 1184364522 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1184364524 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ~= in what sense? In swirly = sense? < 1184364539 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: About-equal. < 1184364553 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I think you might want to use "is a member of" < 1184364557 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: it seems that happens a lot with you :) < 1184364566 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i find odd < 1184364579 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: . . . True. < 1184364590 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asperger's ∈ High-functioning autism < 1184364611 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: that's what happens when a mathematician tries to argue :) < 1184364618 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1184364704 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happens to me all the time, i was once arguing with my aunt about something and started a sentence with "let's assume you use n euros for this" and she lifted a finger and said "okay, one assumption, i'll count these" < 1184364720 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pretty sure you could see my brain explode. < 1184364732 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1184364805 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: I can't see it over my own cranial explosion. < 1184364811 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly, the logic in this room is completely lacking < 1184364823 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree < 1184364826 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: yes, you haven't supplied yours yet :) < 1184364838 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you tell me the crucial difference? < 1184364839 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there is no point arguing about this < 1184364841 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1184364857 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if anyone else wants to go ahead and win the argument, they're welcome, but i've got better things to do (well. maybe.) < 1184364869 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: so far all you've done was insult me and give me a couple links to "educate myself" < 1184364890 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't want to win an argument, i want to know what exactly you think is the difference, i've never understood it myself < 1184364898 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and almost everyone seems to < 1184364904 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The difference between what and what? < 1184364922 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :having a physiological / psychological source < 1184364992 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Physiological implies that it's physical in origin; genetic, environmental, etc. Psychological would imply that it's, so-to-speak, "all in your head". < 1184365006 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: does the latter make any sense? < 1184365047 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I, personally, highly doubt that a psychological source would make any sense whatsoever. < 1184365057 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1184365093 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(is stupidity "psychological"? Getting drunk makes people more stupid, that's a direct physiological influence) < 1184365105 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stupidity may be either. < 1184365128 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"CommandQ" < 1184365153 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for example, one can merely act stupid because you've been told that you *are* stupid, or because you're drunk.) < 1184365477 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm glad this silly argument has slowed to a standstill. < 1184365513 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, those arguing have reached an agreement :) < 1184365538 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have? < 1184365544 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's news to me < 1184365556 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you were never arguing < 1184365569 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only insulting and refusing to answer direct questions < 1184365597 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: ride = bike < 1184365602 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boulder = city < 1184365605 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1184365637 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you a bIkr boy? < 1184365637 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1184365670 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Boulder is the name of the city? < 1184365676 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1184365680 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boulder, CO. < 1184365695 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a cool name. < 1184365951 0 :kwertii!n=kwertii@c-24-5-40-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1184365977 0 :ttm!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CO should be the abbreviation for a more polluted state. < 1184365979 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. An emacsite Esolang coder. :) < 1184365985 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ttm: ? < 1184365993 0 :ttm!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really dbc. < 1184366010 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using an alternate nick because you don't have any fractals to paste? < 1184366036 0 :ttm!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I could probably dig one up. < 1184366476 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1184366556 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the simplest (in both syntax AND semantics) turing-complete programming language is. < 1184366563 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iota doesn't count - its semantics are quite complex. < 1184366565 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whirl's more so. < 1184366643 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :devising a good metric for simplicity of semantics would be... interesting :) < 1184366671 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlambda? < 1184366673 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iota is not a pure combinator, as it uses nested lambda expressions (S and K) < 1184366690 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, With just ` s and k right? < 1184366698 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: Yeah. < 1184366706 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not -- definately not. If so -- I'm not sure, it's certainly near the top < 1184366721 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :110 might be close to being the simplest < 1184366726 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1d ca rule 110 < 1184366737 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's proven tc in ANKOS < 1184366761 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. < 1184366766 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i guess the turing machine version of it < 1184366792 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, that's not an esolang though -- well it wasn't intended as one =) < 1184366828 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: He wasn't asking for simplest esolang. Just simplest turing-complete language. < 1184366830 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boolfuck or P'' < 1184366839 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, He is me < 1184366848 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or single combinator systems < 1184366849 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boolfuck is a lot more complex than 110, bsmntbombdood < 1184366856 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood, P'' is just BF without IO... and that requires defining the semantics of a tape, the operations on it, etc < 1184366868 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iota would be close but iota is not in fact a combinator since it uses inner lambdas (S and K) < 1184366870 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we still haven't quantified complexity, not even approximately. < 1184366878 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: huh? < 1184366879 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, it's subjective < 1184366887 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, then so is the answer :) < 1184366887 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iota certainly is a combinator < 1184366890 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Boolfuck is P'' with a two-letter alphabet and output. < 1184366895 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood, not a pure one < 1184366903 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has been ignoring you lot for the last 90 minutes.
< 1184366904 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i guess you could define complexity in the number of letters the shortes interpreter has in it's code < 1184366906 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: what's a pure combinator? < 1184366908 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that ^-1 < 1184366911 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have scrollback, but TLDR < 1184366923 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Specify language. < 1184366924 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: a pure combinator combines its arguments. < 1184366935 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: say, python < 1184366938 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: so \x.ax is not a pure combinator, because of that 'a' < 1184366949 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: it wasn't an argument, so you can't use it < 1184366950 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most languages will have it the same relative length < 1184366961 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: s, k, i are pure combinators, and iota isn't < 1184366963 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood, A lambda without inner lambdas < 1184366967 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION creates the simplest language: self-interpreting Brainfuck. Brainfuck with the "|" instruction, which makes the program act as a self-interpreting Brainfuck interpreter.
< 1184366986 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\x.xSK <-- S and K are lambdas in the direct source. < 1184366992 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1184367000 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\x.\y.x contains no literal lambdas, therefore it is pure < 1184367007 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's still simple < 1184367020 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it is, by definition, not a pure combinator < 1184367024 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find it easy to imagine 110 working with atoms, then again combinator logic is pretty hard a concept for many, it's not at all simple., < 1184367076 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck is a lot simpler than combinator logic, unless you already know what functions are (i assume everyone knows what numbers are) < 1184367096 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, not simple to understand < 1184367100 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simple to /define/ < 1184367112 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and brainfuck is about a million times more complex than 110 < 1184367121 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to define < 1184367130 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1184367135 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 110 is not an esolang < 1184367142 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i though you were talking about the complexity < 1184367144 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you didn't ask for an esolang. < 1184367152 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: but the definition of lambda calculus depends on the definition of functions :) < 1184367166 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Turing machine doesn't, though. < 1184367170 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: pikhq's point, plus you can always make it an esolang in 5 min < 1184367172 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just depends upon a tape. < 1184367178 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not that crucial no one has done that :) < 1184367189 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google is excessively smart. It automatically searched for the expanded acronym ANKOS. < 1184367198 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, actually, tag systems < 1184367206 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty much on the same level as 110 < 1184367210 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I entered "ANKOS". < 1184367211 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's esolangs for that < 1184367227 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example bitwise cyclic tag < 1184367234 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that TC? < 1184367237 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1184367242 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1184367248 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woah < 1184367256 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tag systems are, and bct can be proven to be able to simulate any tag system < 1184367283 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BCT is a great way to show that many queue-based esolangas are TC < 1184367284 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ankos simulates a turing machine using a tag system < 1184367334 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, unfortunately no one seems to be able to program with q's < 1184367343 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least i haven't really seen any programs < 1184367383 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are there ones on the wiki? i'll take a lookie < 1184367434 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bct does seem to be pretty simple < 1184367533 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recall reading that page and wondering "ok, i get this queue thing, now where's the commands?" < 1184367542 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1184367940 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who in here was the Calxist? < 1184367959 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unless it wasn't in here.) < 1184368000 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google hits are cryptic. < 1184368128 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. So if <, > is left, right, ^, v is up, down, ` is northeast, , is southeast... what's northwest or sourthwest? < 1184368148 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unicode characters :) < 1184368152 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1184368157 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* will do, i guess. < 1184368168 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i've never seen a "southwest" character.. does it actually exist?) < 1184368176 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :backcomma? < 1184368181 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not < 1184368191 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha < 1184368197 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :¬ can be northwest < 1184368202 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not ascii < 1184368205 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what < 1184368221 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're not limited to ascii, just use the quotation mark < 1184368228 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like ` but the other way < 1184368244 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :¬ is easy to type on most keyboards. < 1184368250 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is? < 1184368256 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how? < 1184368262 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shift-` < 1184368266 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~ < 1184368273 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh. < 1184368284 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test__: not on any keyboard i've ever seen, although i suppose it's different in Europe < 1184368287 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION suggests ^7>JvLenclosure< < 1184370653 0 :test__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it encloses the > < 1184370773 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1184370779 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i though you mean closure < 1184370782 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*meant < 1184370833 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm having trouble changing between english and finnish < 1184370840 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i'd have made that many errors < 1184370864 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just constantly get the feeling i used the wrong language < 1184371094 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with two languages as similar as english and finnish, no surprise you get confused :) < 1184371146 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's weird how i can immediately spot small errors in writing, but i can sometimes be completely unable to actually tell which language i'm looking at < 1184371180 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not immediately as in i'm supergood at that < 1184371180 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there're certain symptoms that are usually a dead giveaway. < 1184371182 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but pretty good < 1184371194 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a dead giveaway? :D