←2007-07-13 2007-07-14 2007-07-15→ ↑2007 ↑all
00:00:13 <lament> for example english tends to use the word 'the' more often than other languages :)
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00:01:44 <oklokok> yes, but i don't really concentrate on single words when readin
00:01:45 <oklokok> *reading
00:02:44 <oklokok> i can always tell which language it is if i actually logically derive it from a word in the sentence, i just find it weird it doesn't automatically happen as i read the actual gist of the sentence in
00:02:54 <oklokok> *-in
00:06:36 <lament> how many languages do you know?
00:07:59 <oklokok> i know 2 well enough to think in them, plus 2 i can somewhat communicate with
00:08:09 <oklokok> i've read a bit of everything though
00:08:19 <lament> maybe it'll pass if you learn more ;)
00:08:23 <oklokok> oh, i know my friend's language ZX3 pretty well
00:08:27 <oklokok> yeah, true :P
00:08:38 <oklokok> next japanese and spanish
00:08:45 <oklokok> japanese because... well everybody does it
00:08:49 <oklokok> and spanish is sexy.
00:09:30 <lament> a mi tambien me gusta el espan~ol
00:09:46 <oklokok> tambien = also?
00:09:49 <lament> yes
00:10:08 <lament> and japanese... i could learn the language but i have no hope of completely learning and understanding the culture.. so what's the point?
00:10:11 <oklokok> that whole structure is a bit strange to me, but i understand that much :P
00:10:29 <bsmntbombdood> we should all just speak the same language
00:10:35 <oklokok> well, a learned language is a learned language, who needs another reason than that.
00:10:47 <oklokok> bsmntbombdood: and play with imaginary ones like spanish.
00:10:49 <bsmntbombdood> then we could build a tower to heaven
00:10:54 <lament> oklokok: well, what would you use it for?
00:11:13 <lament> oklokok: to be able to read japanese literature, simply knowing the language is not enough
00:11:24 <lament> you need to understand all the cultural references
00:11:46 <lament> this is true of every language, but japanese culture is just so... alien
00:11:55 <oklokok> lament: there aren't really any cultures i know that well.
00:12:35 <lament> i watched a japanese movie recently, and then read an overview of what happened there, and i basically missed everything :)
00:12:39 <oklokok> and i think i *could* read japanese literature by learning the language
00:12:42 <oklokok> heh
00:12:44 <lament> (because of not knowing the culture)
00:12:56 <oklokok> can you specify what exactly you misunderstood?
00:13:32 <lament> for example, the low caste of the main character could be deduced from the fact that he used to work as a shoemaker.
00:13:47 <lament> (the main character holds a high position in a shoemaking company)
00:15:01 <lament> the key concept there is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin
00:15:14 <oklokok> he holds a high position there, but is still low caste?
00:15:47 <lament> quoting that article:
00:15:48 <lament> Akira Kurosawa made a political statement by having the main character work as a shoe industry executive who rose from humble origins as a simple leather worker, clearly implying (to Japanese audiences) the main character's burakumin status.
00:16:05 <lament> obviously that was completely lost on me
00:16:49 <lament> if you read literature and constantly miss things like that, that's not really "understanding"
00:17:03 <lament> so just learning the language is not enough :)
00:17:08 <oklokok> i wouldn't understand anything like that no matter what i was reading.
00:17:30 <lament> you would certainly catch more references to western culture, since you live surrounded by it.
00:17:33 <oklokok> well, i don't think you can make a political statement in english except explicitly.
00:18:14 <lament> well, for example you could make the leading character black.
00:18:35 <oklokok> i wouldn't notice.
00:18:42 <oklokok> a character is a character :\
00:18:53 <oklokok> are black leading characters rare?
00:19:14 <lament> it's less of an issue these days
00:19:28 <oklokok> is *something* an issue these days?
00:19:33 <oklokok> well, okay, child porn
00:19:37 <oklokok> but that's also illegal.
00:19:46 <lament> lots of things are issues
00:19:48 <oklokok> so, basically nothing is a statement of any kind.
00:19:49 <oklokok> oh
00:19:57 <oklokok> well, i wouldn't know
00:20:02 <oklokok> please enlighten me :)
00:20:03 <lament> which country do you live in?
00:20:30 <oklokok> finland
00:20:43 <bsmntbombdood> you could make a statement by making the main character sexually deviated
00:20:43 <lament> i have no idea what the issues in finland are :)
00:20:59 <lament> Would you notice if the character were a Muslim of Russian descent?
00:21:17 <lament> a sexually deviant muslim of russian descent
00:21:27 <bsmntbombdood> i hardly ever pay attention to stuff like that when reading
00:21:47 <lament> authors rarely put stuff like that at random
00:21:54 <lament> if it's there, it's there for a reason
00:22:04 <lament> (not always, of course)
00:22:12 <bsmntbombdood> why do they give characters names then?
00:22:21 <bsmntbombdood> i never remember those, and they aren't important
00:22:27 <lament> names are often important.
00:22:47 <bsmntbombdood> how?
00:22:53 <oklokok> lament: i never remember a name, and i remember details like religion if they are somehow important in the events of the book
00:23:43 <lament> bsmntbombdood: sometimes it refers to a specific trait of the character.
00:24:00 <oklokok> but i don't think there's anything tabuish anymore, anywhere in the western countries.
00:24:07 <oklokok> if tabuish would be the same as issueish.
00:24:18 <bsmntbombdood> oklokok: sexuall deviancy
00:24:29 <oklokok> err, no.
00:24:31 <lament> oklokok: are you nuts?
00:24:41 <oklokok> well, as i said, you can't rape a child, anywhere
00:24:47 <oklokok> but that's all i can think of that's bad
00:24:56 <lament> oklokok: "bad" is not the same as issues
00:25:24 <oklokok> negrophilia is okay on tv, in books you can even tell details about it without even mentioning it in the cover or smth
00:25:29 <oklokok> lament: perhaps not
00:25:38 <oklokok> i don't really know
00:25:42 <oklokok> not that cultural
00:25:47 <oklokok> i watch family guy all day long.
00:25:48 <oklokok> :)
00:25:52 <oklokok> what do you expect
00:26:03 <lament> either you are trolling, or are really stupid
00:26:18 <oklokok> i'm not trolling, perhaps i'm stupid
00:26:29 <oklokok> where was i being stupid?
00:26:45 <lament> family guy consists almost entirely of cultural references. It's all about "present-day issues".
00:26:56 <oklokok> yes, but i don't get those
00:26:57 <bsmntbombdood> indeed
00:27:06 <oklokok> i laugh at the characters
00:27:11 <lament> oklokok: well
00:27:19 <lament> oklokok: you'd be able to appreciate japanese literature in the same way
00:27:26 <lament> oklokok: but it's a fairly shallow understanding
00:27:36 <oklokok> well, i don't want to know anything that deeper in any cultures :)
00:27:45 <oklokok> i didn't realize popstars etc were culture
00:27:46 <lament> you wish to be ignorant?
00:27:49 <oklokok> errr
00:27:54 <oklokok> about some stuff, yes
00:28:23 <oklokok> i don't want to remember stuff about sportsmen and musicians writing worse music that me
00:28:25 <oklokok> *than
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00:28:39 <oklokok> well, worse music than better musicians
00:28:46 <lament> Have you heard about 9/11?
00:28:50 <oklokok> yes
00:28:55 <lament> Would you catch a reference to 9/11?
00:28:58 <oklokok> unfortunately
00:29:04 <lament> That's an "issue" :)
00:29:45 <oklokok> okay, you've convinced me somewhat
00:29:57 <oklokok> but i doubt i'd miss anything i'd care to have understood.
00:32:16 <lament> it could be central to understanding the actions of the characters.
00:32:33 <lament> so without understanding the reference, it would seem that the characters are acting irrationally.
00:32:56 <oklokok> i've watched anime, they seems pretty rational :\
00:33:36 <oklokok> except for the fact they get excited about everything and otherwise show emotions, but that also happens in series in the us
00:34:06 <lament> or, for example, a difficult decision could seem simple and obvious to you
00:34:18 <lament> (a decision taken by a character)
00:34:31 <lament> because you don't know where the difficulty lies, not knowing the culture.
00:35:26 <oklokok> i see what you mean, but i don't believe that would disturb me
00:35:54 <lament> and sometimes you could misinterpret the actions completely
00:36:04 <oklokok> i do believe, of course, that i wouldn't understand what's happening, but the only thing i do *not* enjoy in a book is when it's predictable
00:36:17 <lament> for example, somebody in irc saying "im smrt" is a reference to the simpsons
00:36:21 <oklokok> i love david lynch's movies, and i don't understand even the stuff most people do :)
00:36:32 <lament> you could misinterpret it as them not knowing how to type
00:36:37 <lament> and thinking they're smart...
00:36:46 <oklokok> lament: i've seen every episode of simpsons 1-3 times, and i didn't know that
00:36:53 <oklokok> except if it was in a very new episode
00:37:12 <oklokok> oh
00:37:17 <oklokok> was that an example? :D
00:37:32 <oklokok> i mean, it's not really from simpsons is it? :D
00:37:39 <lament> it is.
00:37:42 <oklokok> oh :|
00:37:50 <oklokok> i'm bad at understanding anything, really
00:37:53 <oklokok> from where?
00:38:04 <lament> at some point homer says "I'm smart! S-M-R-T!"
00:38:20 <oklokok> oh, weird you'd remember that :|
00:38:34 <oklokok> he misspells a lot of words in the course of the series :)
00:38:53 <oklokok> ah, i actually remember him shouting that now
00:39:07 <oklokok> good that my hours watching them weren't a complete waste.
00:39:23 <lament> not only i remember that, but i haven't actually seen that episode.
00:39:30 <oklokok> heh :D
00:39:31 <lament> i just know the reference, because it's pretty common.
00:39:40 <oklokok> oh
00:40:05 <oklokok> never seen it elsewhere
00:40:42 <lament> well, being in finland you don't have to catch all the references to american culture :)
00:40:42 <oklokok> this channel, tv series and science books are my only source of english, though, that might be a reason.
00:40:50 <lament> right
00:41:10 <lament> but it's an example of how not knowing the culture could lead you to misinterpret stuff
00:41:36 <lament> books by serious writers often have detailed commentaries that list and explain all the references
00:41:51 <oklokok> oh
00:41:51 <lament> (eg james joyce is impossible to read otherwise)
00:41:53 <oklokok> that's cheating
00:41:58 <oklokok> heh
00:42:36 <oklokok> i haven't read a line of joyce
00:42:48 <oklokok> i learned the name playing an irc-trivia :)
00:43:15 <lament> i would say that the culture almost _is_ an aspect of the language itself
00:43:35 <lament> since it affects the meaning of what you say
00:45:44 <oklokok> yes, but i find it a lot less crucial than you, obviously :)
00:45:54 <oklokok> and you are smarter than me, so you are probably right.
00:46:13 <oklokok> (try and beat that argument!)
00:47:02 <SimonRC> What *is* all that waffle?
01:02:59 <SimonRC> zzzzzzzzz
01:05:14 <oklopol> lament: actually, about the 911 reference, fg has a whole episode about a plane crash, with at least a few 911 jokes, it took me 3 watchings of that episode to understand them
01:05:15 <pikhq> lament: Being in America, it's hard to catch all the references to your own culture. :p
01:05:58 <oklopol> so, actually, i wouldn't understand a 911 joke unless it was obvious like hell
01:07:12 <oklopol> (just a quick remark)
01:12:52 * oklokok assumes it's clear that kok/pol are the same thing
01:25:21 * pikhq is aware
01:51:12 * pikhq is also aware of his *severe* laziness towards actually designing a game to go with his engine
01:52:16 * oklopol is lazier than you
01:52:50 <pikhq> Really?
01:52:53 <pikhq> Prove it.
01:54:20 <oklopol> what've you done during the last 7 hours?
01:54:34 <pikhq> Wake up.
01:54:36 <oklopol> well, i haven't.
01:54:38 <oklopol> oh
01:54:40 <oklopol> that's all?
01:54:48 <oklopol> i've chatted on this chan
01:54:49 <pikhq> Hang out on IRC.
01:54:51 <pikhq> That's it.
01:54:58 <oklopol> oh
01:55:05 <oklopol> have you walked?
01:55:12 <oklopol> i did one trip to the kitchen
01:55:26 <pikhq> I walked from the bed to the computer to the kitchen and back to the computer.
01:56:01 <pikhq> Now, this may not sound as amazing until you realise that I woke up at noon.
01:56:36 <oklopol> i woke up 16:00.
01:57:06 <pikhq> Noice.
01:57:24 <pikhq> I stand corrected: you barely win.
01:57:36 <oklopol> heh
01:58:13 <oklopol> i did learn the periodic table last night
01:58:30 <oklopol> i'm not always lazy, but when i am, i own at it
01:58:35 * pikhq ought to go around and pimp his Brainfuck game engine for a bit. Claim to have done *something* with the day.
01:58:45 <oklopol> for the last 6 hours i've been planning to open family guy
01:58:50 <oklopol> but it's not open.
01:59:34 <oklopol> hmm, finishing ankos might also fit in the last 7 hours, i don't really know when i read it
01:59:46 <oklopol> the hours pass by so silently
02:00:19 <oklopol> most of the time there's no chatter anywhere, you know what a pro idler does then? he idles.
02:00:45 <oklopol> when i'm not creating these great monologues, i usually sit and stare at the still screen
02:01:01 <oklopol> when the screen saver gets on, i click a button
02:06:38 <oklopol> err, i didn't actually learn the whole table, just all the abbreviation/name hashes
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04:53:22 <RodgerTheGreat> I had an idea for a language recently, called "TER", which stands for To Every Rule.
04:54:29 <RodgerTheGreat> logic, flow control and variables would all be synthesized around an Exception-based model.
04:55:14 <RodgerTheGreat> the idea came to me while reading some absolutely hideous code that used TRY...CATCH blocks woven deeply around its logic.
04:59:45 <RodgerTheGreat> thoughts, anyone?
04:59:55 <RodgerTheGreat> is this idea worth writing a spec for?
04:59:55 <pikhq> Whoa.
05:00:46 <RodgerTheGreat> I think that something reasonably elegant in terms of flow control could be constructed around this concept
05:00:47 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
05:01:13 <RodgerTheGreat> and yet, at the same time, using the language would be a painful ordeal, which is generally a positive trait in esolangs
05:01:17 <Sukoshi> RodgerTheGreat: How goes the Smalltalking?
05:01:28 <Sukoshi> I recently got an idea for an esolang based around unit testing.
05:01:42 <Sukoshi> Where flow control is acheived through the successful execution of a bunch of tests for individual units.
05:02:04 <RodgerTheGreat> I have made no progress with smalltalk in the last two days. Crypto + helping teach a class to middle-schoolers = tired rodger
05:02:44 <Sukoshi> I need to write a tutorial titled ``Learn Smalltalk for Lispers!'' heh.
05:03:16 <RodgerTheGreat> Sukoshi: hm. I wonder if you could write something like that in an existing debugging system's commandset?
05:03:21 <pikhq> Sukoshi: Write a tutorial titled "Learn Lisp for Tclers!".
05:03:32 <Sukoshi> pikhq: That's your job, TCLer ;)
05:03:42 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm writing a tutorial for writing games.
05:03:58 <pikhq> Sukoshi: I don't know Lisp. ;)
05:04:06 <Sukoshi> pikhq: o_O
05:04:23 <Sukoshi> RodgerTheGreat: A question -- what's the advantage of using the State practice pattern over a large case statement? Modularity?
05:04:36 <Sukoshi> RodgerTheGreat: Yeah. Aim it for the experienced non-game programmer.
05:04:47 <RodgerTheGreat> I realized the other day that the most intuitive way to explain object oriented programming to kids could be teaching them to play human-pong, and then using that model throughout rebuilding the system in code.
05:04:48 <Sukoshi> Too many idiot tutorials for learning how to write games out there.
05:05:04 <Sukoshi> I like the BSD Robots model more.
05:05:12 <Sukoshi> Have you played BSD Robots?
05:05:32 <RodgerTheGreat> I've played RoboWar for the mac and Corewar. Similar?
05:05:33 <pikhq> I ought to write "Writing Adventure Games in Brainfuck (using pebble)"
05:05:34 <pikhq> :p
05:05:43 <Sukoshi> Not at all RodgerTheGreat.
05:05:57 <Sukoshi> RodgerTheGreat: It's a very simple game, and perfect to implement in any new language.
05:06:11 <Sukoshi> One of those weird examples which can utilize almost every language's special strengths.
05:06:15 <Sukoshi> Anyways, the premise:
05:06:28 <Sukoshi> You're a player, and you're in a room (a grid) with a bunch of robots.
05:06:36 <RodgerTheGreat> I want to make a paper that basically outlines the most important concepts and algorithms that you have to know cold for game programming. Things like using the state-machine model, types of collision detection, things you can do with timing and velocity, basic AI routines, etc
05:07:38 <RodgerTheGreat> I'll assume familiarity with a language, and give examples in Java, without relying on anything major from the API.
05:08:01 <Sukoshi> You can move in the four cardinal directions, but robots can as well. Every step you take, the robots will get closer to where you were on the preceding turn. The object of the game is to maneuver such that the robots crash into each other. When one robot crashes into each other, it turns into a piece of trash. If you collide with a piece of trash or a robot, the game ends. If a robot collides with a piece of trash, it becomes on tras
05:08:01 <Sukoshi> h in that same spot.
05:08:09 <RodgerTheGreat> I may conclude with some detailed Applet coding tricks, too, because they can be hard to come by these days
05:08:33 <RodgerTheGreat> Sukoshi: ah. The original arcade game like that is called "Robotron"
05:08:48 <Sukoshi> There's one last thing: the player has a special ``teleport'' command, which telports you to a random point -- unfortunately, it can teleport you on top of a robot or outside of the field. In which case, you lose.
05:08:59 <RodgerTheGreat> another version, in which you are Doctor Who, armed with a hypersonic screwdriver, is called "Daleks"
05:09:23 <Sukoshi> It's very well suited to objects, IMO.
05:09:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I've never played with a teleport that could send you outside the field. :S
05:09:46 <Sukoshi> I agree with a lot of developers that Smalltalk teaches OOP methodologies better than Java (because it's easy to learn, and OOP).
05:09:46 <RodgerTheGreat> you play a more evil version than I do, it would appear.
05:10:02 <Sukoshi> It's the BSD version :P
05:10:33 <RodgerTheGreat> Java is less pure than Smalltalk, but it's more readily accessible, and the API makes it more immediately useful to people that want to write things like games
05:10:36 <Sukoshi> And also it's nice to teach, because the transition from ST to Java is very small.
05:11:10 <Sukoshi> Java's like C implemented on top of ST, minus ST's syntax.
05:11:10 <RodgerTheGreat> except for the whole "WTF is a primitive again?" thing. :)
05:11:23 <Sukoshi> Yeah. But the class hierarchy is almost exactly the same.
05:11:32 <Sukoshi> So are the methods and generics, and *everything*.
05:12:04 <RodgerTheGreat> Java's design seems roughly based on the idea of starting with C++ and fixing it. It's good, but there's only so far you can go with just another curly-bracket language
05:12:32 <Sukoshi> Well, Sun had a lot of ST investments back in the day.
05:12:38 <RodgerTheGreat> yep
05:12:46 <Sukoshi> Hurry up and learn :3
05:12:59 <Sukoshi> If you're dedicated, you can probably finish that book in 2-3 hours (Smalltalk by Example).
05:13:31 <RodgerTheGreat> I'll stop by the library tomorrow and see if they have a copy.
05:13:50 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Curly-brackets can work pretty well for a language.
05:13:58 <pikhq> Plof == :)
05:14:12 <RodgerTheGreat> I prefer square brackets. :D
05:14:19 <RodgerTheGreat> LOGO and Bullet for the win
05:15:27 <pikhq> Square brackets? You'd love Tcl, then.
05:15:50 <RodgerTheGreat> bullet's syntax is best described, currently, as looking like a mixture of LOGO and Verilog, with a pinch of COBOL mixed in.
05:15:58 <pikhq> We've got your quote marks, curly brackets, and square brackets *right here!* :p
05:16:17 <Sukoshi> http://brotherhood.twilightparadox.com <-- The cult thing is weird, it's on myspace (ewww), but read.
05:16:24 <RodgerTheGreat> the mechanics of the language are a little C, a little Java, and a little LISP
05:16:36 <Sukoshi> RodgerTheGreat: I linked you to it in the section of free books.
05:16:51 <RodgerTheGreat> I like dead trees, damnit
05:17:01 <RodgerTheGreat> at least, when I'm learning a language
05:17:05 <Sukoshi> We all do, but good luck finding the dead tree :P
05:17:33 <pikhq> set var 0;puts [list "This is a quick example! $var" {See? $var won't be expanded here.} [expr $var ? "This won't be output." : "This will."]]
05:17:57 <pikhq> Outputs "This is a quick example! 0 See? $var won't be expanded here. This will."
05:18:18 <RodgerTheGreat> the MTU library has a shitty fiction section, but damned if we don't have a good collection of CS texts
05:22:56 <Sukoshi> What is the advantage of the State pattern over a case statement?
05:23:50 <RodgerTheGreat> what?
05:24:47 <Sukoshi> If you have a finite amount of states which are determined by say, parser input of a stream, what advantages would the polymorphic state pattern have over just a large case statement?
05:25:24 <RodgerTheGreat> polymorphic... state pattern.. erm. Hm.
05:25:37 <RodgerTheGreat> would that be something that intermixes state code or something?
05:26:11 <Sukoshi> Oh. I thought you had read the Design Patterns thingamabobber.
05:26:30 <Sukoshi> Here, an article says there's no point unless the case statement will be changed often. It won't here, so I may as well forego the state.
05:26:32 <Sukoshi> Back to Japanese.
05:26:45 * RodgerTheGreat rifles through safari windows for the design patterns thingamabobber
05:41:27 <RodgerTheGreat> it's amazing how psychologically beneficial a pet can be, even if it isn't particularly "cuddly".
05:42:11 <RodgerTheGreat> I find myself deeply attached to my Betta, who has been my constant companion since about halfway into last year.
05:44:27 <RodgerTheGreat> sometimes I force myself to wake up on crappy days to feed him. Perhaps that's what pets are good for- they give you a reason to uphold your daily routine, and give you something in your life that you can feel in control of. The positive feedback of keeping another living creature alive through diligent work and your attention satisfies something deepset.
05:45:56 <RodgerTheGreat> Either that or humans have such a deeply ingrained nurturing instinct that we have difficulty self-actualizing without something to care for.
05:46:14 <RodgerTheGreat> some people like plants, some people like cats, I like my fish.
05:46:50 <pikhq> Hmm.
05:47:00 <RodgerTheGreat> what do you think, pikhq?
05:47:05 * pikhq wonders if nurturing for a computer counts. :p
05:47:05 <Sukoshi> Japanese is my reason for a daily routine.
05:47:23 <pikhq> I lack a daily routine, although I could probably use one.
05:48:43 <RodgerTheGreat> personifying a computer can probably satisfy some of the needs I discuss, I suppose (Hey, I name my computers too), but I can't help but think that a living organism is better suited to the task.
05:49:07 <pikhq> True.
05:49:42 <RodgerTheGreat> The laptop I'm typing on is named Indigo, but I talk about Alpha, my fish, a great deal more often by name.
05:50:18 <pikhq> I'm on Frodo here.
05:51:14 <RodgerTheGreat> it's reassuring to have his bowl on the desk, where I can turn my head for a moment to see him peacefully watching what I'm working on or occasionally flitting around to grab my attention and remind me it's feeding time.
05:52:05 <RodgerTheGreat> This reminds me- I need to name the powerbook 145 I rescued from a dumpster the other day
05:53:51 <RodgerTheGreat> my naming schemes are greek/roman/norse pantheon for servers and heavy-duty machines (like Hyperion, my ultra10) and colors for my personal computers (like indy here and Argent, my box back home.)
05:54:14 <RodgerTheGreat> "personal computer" maps to "macintosh computer" in this case
05:54:50 <RodgerTheGreat> my mom actually overlaps my color-name scheme- her laptop is named Aubergine
05:55:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
05:55:59 <Sukoshi> I'm on Yamayurikai.
05:57:21 <RodgerTheGreat> Hm. I'm considering Vermillion, Saffron, Slate, Arsenic, Azure and Ultramerine
05:57:41 <Sukoshi> This kernel is named Mariasama.
05:57:42 <RodgerTheGreat> does "Yamayuraikai" mean something in Japanese?
05:57:45 <Sukoshi> The next one shall be named Kanako.
05:58:01 <RodgerTheGreat> *Ultramarine
05:58:06 <Sukoshi> RodgerTheGreat: Mountain Lily Club. It's the name of the student council in an anime/manga/novel series I am absolutely *fangirl frothy* about.
05:58:08 <RodgerTheGreat> can't believe I made that typo
05:58:24 <RodgerTheGreat> ah- haha
05:58:46 <Sukoshi> All my kernel names come from there too.
05:58:57 <Sukoshi> My last one was Sachiko, and before that it was Touko?
05:59:20 <Sukoshi> Oh no. The one before Sachiko was Kashiwagi. The one before *that* was Touko.
05:59:24 <RodgerTheGreat> When I gave a spare thinkpad to a friend of mine, she named it Gilliam, which I thought was clever
05:59:40 <pikhq> Sukoshi: You name your *kernels*?
05:59:46 <Sukoshi> pikhq: Of course I do.
05:59:50 <RodgerTheGreat> my trusty Handera is known as Durandal
06:00:00 <Sukoshi> Handera? I should name one Hanadera soon.
06:00:09 * pikhq should probably do that. . .
06:00:13 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: the kernel is the soul of the machine, after all, as the CPU is the heart
06:00:17 <Sukoshi> (Hanadera is the name of the boys' school in conjunction to the girls' school that contains the Yamayurikai.)
06:00:23 <RodgerTheGreat> hunh
06:00:39 <Sukoshi> (The girls' school being called Lilian.)
06:01:04 <RodgerTheGreat> well, the Handera 330 was the last and greatest of the 68k line of palm-compatibles, and I love mine dearly
06:01:25 <Sukoshi> Hanadera has hot boys :P
06:01:44 <Sukoshi> I can't stop laughing after I said that :D
06:02:04 <RodgerTheGreat> lol
06:02:45 <Sukoshi> There was a service picture of Kashiwagi (the hottest guy in that series and one of the overall hottest anime guys ever) in boxers and t-shirt after he stepped out of a panda suit.
06:02:48 <Sukoshi> Monosugoi.
06:03:05 <Sukoshi> Ok, one of like 5 guys in the series, but I digress.
06:03:23 <Sukoshi> (3 of whom are almost totally filler.)
06:04:00 <RodgerTheGreat> Having no experience with this series (for obvious reasons), the first thing that popped into my head was mechazawa from "Cromartie High", which now has ME laughing
06:04:18 <Sukoshi> Nah. I'm not into Shounen stuff.
06:04:41 <RodgerTheGreat> Cromartie is an absurdist comedy series
06:04:48 <Sukoshi> Yeah. I know.
06:05:09 <Sukoshi> Marimite (the shortened form of the anime's name Maria-sama ga Miteru) is pure shoujo, and has very little action or plot. Mostly character development.
06:05:15 <Sukoshi> And social subterfuge.
06:05:25 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
06:07:16 <RodgerTheGreat> In general, I'm a fan of shows that mix cool sci fi themes with a thoughtful storyline, like Bubblegum crisis Tokyo 2040, The Big O, Lain, Outlaw Star, Ghost in the shell and the like.
06:07:35 <RodgerTheGreat> Good animation + science fiction = gold in my book.
06:07:51 * pikhq is generally a fan of good science fiction on dead tree. ;)
06:08:51 <RodgerTheGreat> I've read my fair share of Asimov, Bradbury, Clarke, Stephenson and Heinlein- my father taught me well
06:09:13 <pikhq> I was taught by mother and grandmother.
06:09:57 <RodgerTheGreat> however, animation appeals to my artistic interests, and it's more often that I have two hours to watch a movie than the time to read a book for fun. College doesn't really reduce your free time, but it sure chops it up into smaller pieces
06:10:43 <pikhq> Two hours? That's about enough time to get 1/4 to 1/2 of the way through. . .
06:10:46 <RodgerTheGreat> I like to spend all day and zip through half a novel, rather than spacing something out over weeks- when I start, I must finish
06:11:19 <pikhq> (feels like it, at least)
06:11:44 <RodgerTheGreat> When a friend introduced me to the Sandman series, I devoured all 11 volumes in less than a week, and I didn't get a lot else done. :)
06:12:05 <Sukoshi> My dad hates SF and my mom thinks it's weird gibberish :P
06:12:12 <RodgerTheGreat> <:/
06:12:29 <Sukoshi> The only person resembling me in my family line is my grandfather the ``nutty'' professor.
06:12:48 <RodgerTheGreat> could either of them appreciate Dune or Ender's Game, at least?
06:12:53 <Sukoshi> Of course not.
06:13:09 <pikhq> My grandmother's the one who got me into Ender's Game. . . :)
06:13:10 <Sukoshi> They can't even stand politically correct gay jokes on TV :P
06:13:19 <RodgerTheGreat> <:(
06:13:44 <pikhq> I also blame her for my introduction to Heinlein.
06:14:01 <pikhq> My mom's to blame for McCaffrey and Asimov.
06:14:15 <RodgerTheGreat> My father gave me ender's game when I was in middle school (this was shortly after I finished 1984), and it resounded deeply with me.
06:14:43 <pikhq> I discovered Ender's Game in my grandmother's bookshelf. (I believe it was the first paperback printing)
06:15:02 <pikhq> I think it was the first bit of serious sci-fi I read. . .
06:15:27 <RodgerTheGreat> Dune was one of my first.
06:15:50 <RodgerTheGreat> before that, mostly Asimov and Bradbury's lighter stuff- short stories and the like
06:16:29 <pikhq> I've only been getting into Asimov's lighter stuff fairly recently.
06:16:37 <RodgerTheGreat> "There will come soft rains" is still one of my favorite Bradbury stories
06:16:42 <pikhq> And Bradbury? I've really only read Fahrenheit so far.
06:16:52 <pikhq> (I need to find more Bradbury stories. :(
06:16:53 <pikhq> )
06:17:12 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: "The feeling of power" was bradbury, right? That one is outstanding.
06:17:28 <pikhq> The Feeling of Power is Asimov.
06:17:40 <pikhq> And one of his greatest short stories, IMO.
06:17:56 <pikhq> I think The Last Question is Asimov's best.
06:18:42 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: I'd be tied between "The 10000000 names of god" and "The feeling of power"
06:19:18 <RodgerTheGreat> please somebody tell me they remember "There will come soft rains".
06:19:33 <RodgerTheGreat> "Tick-tock, seven o'clock! Time to get up, time to get up!"
06:20:22 * pikhq hasn't read "The 100000000 Names of God"
06:20:30 <pikhq> Oh, god. I remember that one now. . .
06:20:39 <pikhq> It was hidden in one of my English textbooks.
06:20:42 <pikhq> Brilliant.
06:20:54 <RodgerTheGreat> it's about the monks that have spent centuries writing out the 10 million names of god in books
06:21:11 <RodgerTheGreat> then, they buy a computer to help speed the job
06:21:14 <pikhq> (I find it odd that some English professors deride science fiction, while publishing it in their textbooks)
06:21:23 <RodgerTheGreat> lol- indeed
06:21:37 <pikhq> I first read "The Smallest Dragonboy" in one, as well.
06:23:49 <pikhq> (although if you *just* read "The Smallest Dragonboy", it's hard to tell that it's sci-fi, not fantasy)
06:28:26 <Sukoshi> I prefer Fantasy over SF.
06:29:40 <pikhq> I, obviously, don't.
06:31:45 <RodgerTheGreat> To me, the difference between fantasy and SciFi is that in science fiction everything has a justification, backstory and explanation, if not explicitly. In fantasy, things are taken as given. Shadow of the Torturer, for example, is set in what appears to be a mideval era (actually later revealed as post apocalyptic), but is most definitely Science Fiction. Dune straddles a very fine line between the two genres
06:34:15 <Sukoshi> Fantasy tends to stress more upon character development while SF focuses more on plot.
06:34:43 <RodgerTheGreat> this is also correct
06:35:13 <Sukoshi> I prefer character development on the whole to plot.
06:35:20 <Sukoshi> Of course, not always.
06:35:33 <RodgerTheGreat> man, I wish "Programmer" was as impressive a title in the real world as it is in "The Feeling of Power"
06:36:10 <pikhq> To some, it somehow brings up the idea of a grunt worker rather than someone a bit more. . . Creative.
06:37:28 <RodgerTheGreat> I think the capital P is what does it. "Programmer", rather than "programmer".
06:37:38 <pikhq> Hmm.
06:38:08 <RodgerTheGreat> if you want to sound impressive, I like things like a "Program Architect"
06:38:27 <RodgerTheGreat> which brings with it connotations of meticulousness and care
06:45:17 <bsmntbombdood> "Hacker"
06:46:42 <RodgerTheGreat> the problem with hacker, aside from media misrepresentations, is that it brings with it the idea of ramshackle, barely functioning creations pulled off with barely any tools or time
06:46:57 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a positive thing, but Hacking is rarely about elegance
06:47:07 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: "hacker" implies either fugly creations, or wonderous artistry.
06:47:33 <pikhq> Using it as a title usually entails the artistry of your work.
06:47:40 <RodgerTheGreat> it's about shrewdness and intuitiveness in problem solving, not clarity and perfection of the end result
06:47:48 <bsmntbombdood> hack can describe elegant
06:48:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I'll concede that, yes- hacking could generally be described as doing a traditionally mundane job in an artful fashion
06:49:28 <pikhq> Such a shame that the word has been misapplied.
06:49:56 <RodgerTheGreat> true.
06:50:51 <RodgerTheGreat> the pioneers in the "field" of cybercrime were and still are hackers, but to claim that that is the only realm of the hacker is tremendously disappointing.
06:51:29 <RodgerTheGreat> and I can't help but think that the hackers who do commit crimes do so for reasons other than money
06:51:40 <RodgerTheGreat> they do it because the challenge is there
06:51:44 <bsmntbombdood> yeah
06:52:10 <RodgerTheGreat> that's the difference between petty thieves and hackers. The motivation, not the methods
06:52:22 <bsmntbombdood> and i still think breaking into a computer can be a hack
06:52:32 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, of course
06:52:56 <RodgerTheGreat> it requires novel approaches to problems, problem solving, dedication
06:52:57 <pikhq> I'd call the work on breaking DRM schemes a case in point.
06:53:10 <bsmntbombdood> indeed
06:53:21 <pikhq> The motivation is the desire to actually own your stuff, and, of course, because you can.
06:53:34 <RodgerTheGreat> it's no different from the whitehats working to secure networks or patch memory leaks in firefox.
06:53:35 <pikhq> Both are obvious motivations for a hacker to get to work. :)
06:54:00 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: In some cases, it's the same people.
06:54:07 <pikhq> (I believe)
06:54:09 <RodgerTheGreat> the phrase that has *always* rung true for me is "What I cannot create, I do not understand"
06:54:29 <pikhq> I cannot help but agree.
06:54:30 <RodgerTheGreat> thus, the nonlogic motto- "reinventing the wheel for fun"
06:54:41 <bsmntbombdood> whitehats are lame
06:54:44 <RodgerTheGreat> fun, but at the same time thrilling discovery
06:54:51 <pikhq> Which is part of the fun.
06:57:05 <RodgerTheGreat> discovery is the intersection of fun and learning
06:59:13 <Sukoshi> Discovery is your mom.
06:59:42 <Sukoshi> (I'm sorry but, that chance just *couldn't* have been let down.)
06:59:46 <bsmntbombdood> oh come one
06:59:58 <bsmntbombdood> fuck, i hate it when i make typos
07:00:12 <bsmntbombdood> but really, i expect better from you
07:01:51 <RodgerTheGreat> Sukoshi: you are incorrigible
07:02:23 <bsmntbombdood> second'd
07:02:55 <RodgerTheGreat> everybody knows that Discovery is Daft Punk's greatest album
07:03:17 * RodgerTheGreat is listening to Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger by Daft Punk from Discovery
07:03:25 <Sukoshi> RodgerTheGreat: I just had to spoil the moment, that's all ;P
07:03:32 <RodgerTheGreat> lol
07:03:48 * bsmntbombdood decides to download that album for no reason
07:04:49 <RodgerTheGreat> I was merely pointing out that you could spoil the mood in a somewhat less stereotypical manner, and potentially gain an even better non sequitur
07:05:24 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: I highly recommend it
07:08:33 <bsmntbombdood> in 15 minutes i will be in musical bliss, then
07:08:48 <RodgerTheGreat> have you ever listened to Daft Punk?
07:08:58 <bsmntbombdood> never
07:09:12 <RodgerTheGreat> have you ever listened to any House music?
07:09:26 <bsmntbombdood> small amounts
07:09:33 <RodgerTheGreat> did you like it?
07:10:28 <bsmntbombdood> somewhat
07:10:58 <RodgerTheGreat> signs are highly encouraging that you'll enjoy Discovery
07:11:28 * RodgerTheGreat puts his magic 9-ball back in his pocket discreetly
07:17:14 <GreaseMonkey> aww, i've only got a magic 8-ball :(
07:17:14 <RodgerTheGreat> if you like it, do the world a favor and buy it.
07:17:40 <GreaseMonkey> anyways, i came up with a unique esolang today
07:17:41 <RodgerTheGreat> GreaseMonkey: don't feel bad, the 9-balls were actually limited release factory defects.
07:17:45 <RodgerTheGreat> I got mine on sale.
07:18:03 <GreaseMonkey> is it still black?
07:18:26 <GreaseMonkey> or is it a colour with a stripe?
07:18:47 <GreaseMonkey> i had a standard 10-ball :D
07:19:07 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, but occasionally it comes up with an irregular fortune like "Fuck you" or "I was lying earlier. OR WAS I?"
07:19:27 <RodgerTheGreat> it can be unsettling at times
07:20:13 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder if you can have an quine in english
07:20:43 <RodgerTheGreat> "please write this entire sentence, exactly, on another sheet of paper."
07:20:51 <RodgerTheGreat> actually, I think that one's a virus. :S
07:20:57 <RodgerTheGreat> oops.
07:20:59 <bsmntbombdood> this was inspired by "i'm not going to dignify that with a response, other than 'i'm not going to dignify that with a response'", which is obviously incorrect
07:21:10 <RodgerTheGreat> haha
07:21:13 <RodgerTheGreat> that's a good one
07:23:46 <bsmntbombdood> ok, finished downloading
07:26:38 <RodgerTheGreat> on an unrelated note, I am once again making progress in my RPG project. Observe the new indoor tiles in action: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1184374760-lab.png
07:28:52 <bsmntbombdood> http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=406
07:29:07 <RodgerTheGreat> lol
07:30:14 <RodgerTheGreat> http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=408
07:30:57 <bsmntbombdood> i've been reading questionable content from the beginning
07:31:08 <RodgerTheGreat> I did that a while back. good times.
07:31:44 <RodgerTheGreat> eugh. today's woot is really expensive for what it is:
07:31:45 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.woot.com/
07:32:04 <RodgerTheGreat> a standard socket set for $40?
07:32:20 <RodgerTheGreat> those cost like $25 in a store, and these are in no way special
07:32:22 <RodgerTheGreat> I feel cheated
07:32:43 <RodgerTheGreat> I almost bought the R/C minicopter for $20 yesterday.
07:32:50 <RodgerTheGreat> I probably should've.
07:35:44 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
07:37:57 <RodgerTheGreat> well, g'night everyone
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07:40:03 <bsmntbombdood> the singing, if you can call it that, is pretty cool in this song
07:40:11 <bsmntbombdood> Harder, Better, Faster, Strong
07:44:09 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.paulgraham.com/thist.html
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:03:56 <bsmntbombdood> whoa!
08:04:00 <bsmntbombdood> http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=452
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10:26:50 <GreaseMonkey> ☹ gnight ☹
10:26:59 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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16:45:05 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: It's singing via talk box.
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18:19:50 <oklopol> is there an abstraction eliminator somewhere?
18:19:57 <oklopol> hmm
18:20:02 <oklopol> can't take that long to make though
18:20:16 <oerjan> oklopol: on my webpage
18:20:32 <oklopol> i'll use that for checking, but i'll make it myself first
18:20:35 <oerjan> (modified from the one in the unlambda distribution)
18:21:13 <oerjan> actually you probably rather want the latter, mine uses d heavily for optimization
18:21:25 <oklopol> d?
18:21:31 <oklopol> the language or?
18:21:37 <oerjan> unlambda's delay operator
18:21:43 <oklopol> ah okay
18:21:57 <oklopol> i'm actually just doing ski :)
18:22:04 <oerjan> guessed so
18:22:28 <oklopol> gonna make something big first, then learn the basics
18:22:48 <pikhq> Y'all are insane.
18:23:10 <oklopol> d is to prevent eagerness?
18:23:16 <pikhq> Call me up when you write a language which compiles to Brainfuck, and end up doing two rewrites of it. :p
18:23:26 <oerjan> We are all mad here. I am mad. You are mad.
18:24:12 <oerjan> yep
18:26:35 <oklopol> ah i see ho you'd use that
18:26:45 <oklopol> though i don't actually know how you use d
18:26:56 <oklopol> `di returns i unevaluated?
18:27:02 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/619342 I can't believe this is what PEBBLE used to look like. . .
18:27:03 <oklopol> err
18:27:09 <oklopol> `ii returns i unevaluated
18:27:11 <oklopol> err no
18:27:25 <oklopol> err guess i don't know anything.
18:27:42 <oerjan> `d expression returns the expression unevaluated
18:28:05 <oklopol> pikhq: can you show me some pebble code?
18:28:23 <oklopol> i'm too lazy to open the game engine i have on my hd
18:28:27 <pikhq> oklopol: You want a short example, or a long one?
18:28:32 <oklopol> looong
18:28:38 <oklopol> but one i can see in the browser
18:28:51 <pikhq> Let me get PFUCK out.
18:30:04 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/619346
18:31:02 <oklopol> oh, quite pretty
18:31:08 <oklopol> but back to unlambda
18:31:20 <oklopol> well okay, back to the ski.
18:31:28 <oklopol> blues skis
19:33:10 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
19:33:24 <RodgerTheGreat> hi everyone
19:35:24 <pikhq> 'Lo.
19:35:38 <Sukoshi> Yo-z.
19:35:46 <Sukoshi> Found Smalltalk by Example at your local library, RodgerTheGreat ?
19:36:03 <RodgerTheGreat> I actually just woke up. :)
19:36:12 <Sukoshi> Wow o_O
19:36:52 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I was up until ~3am my time, and it is now 2:30pm my time
19:37:01 <RodgerTheGreat> it is also a weekend
19:37:30 <Sukoshi> My normal sleep time is 3 AM -> 7 AM on non-summer, and 3 AM -> 8 AM on summer.
19:37:56 <RodgerTheGreat> I value my sleep.
19:38:26 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't require 8 hours, but I tremendously enjoy it (or 11 hours) when I can get it.
19:38:34 <Sukoshi> Booorrriiing :P
19:38:51 <RodgerTheGreat> more like Reelaaaxiiing
19:39:37 <pikhq> My normal sleep time is "From collapse to getting up".
19:42:56 <Sukoshi> Even with my sleep hours, I don't have enough time to do everything I want to do.
19:45:09 <oklopol> i'd need to sleep about -500 hours per night to be able to do everything i want to do.
19:45:33 <oklopol> for example, i'd like to walk to japan right now and then continue my unlambda
19:45:46 <oklopol> that's actually more like -100000
19:46:05 <pikhq> I need the ability to stop time to get everything I want to do done.
19:46:26 <oklopol> instead, if i did walk there now, that'd take a big chuck of my life,
19:46:31 <oklopol> *-,
19:54:58 * pikhq is t3h bored. . .
19:55:19 <oerjan> at the pikhq of boredom...
19:55:39 <pikhq> There will be. . . STACKFUCK.
19:56:03 <RodgerTheGreat> oerjan: it never occurred to me that you could pronounce his name like that
19:56:11 <RodgerTheGreat> a fascinatingly oblique pun
19:56:12 <pikhq> Shit. Done already.
19:56:15 <oerjan> that sounds like a kind of group sex
19:56:31 <RodgerTheGreat> where one person has less fun
19:56:35 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Who?
19:56:38 <RodgerTheGreat> actually, two
19:57:06 <oerjan> RodgerTheGreat: how would you pronounce it?
19:57:19 <RodgerTheGreat> the head node and tail node would in theory receive 50% of the experience of the interspersed nodes
19:57:41 <RodgerTheGreat> oerjan: pick-h-q
19:58:10 <oerjan> almost like pikachu
19:58:18 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: "Peek-h-q" is my preferred proununciation.
19:58:39 <pikhq> I was 8, and a fan of Pokemon at the time I came up with the nick. . . And I've just not stopped using it since.
19:58:55 <oerjan> ah
19:59:26 <RodgerTheGreat> well, it's better than "PokeMonMaster51187" or somesuch
19:59:51 <pikhq> I was at least *sane* when I was 8. ;)
20:00:24 <RodgerTheGreat> heh
20:01:24 <pikhq> One of my projects at the time was to make a Pokemon clone. . . I was a sucky programmer, so I never finished, though.
20:01:58 <oklopol> you were a sucky programmer at the age of 8?
20:02:02 <oklopol> what :|
20:02:07 <pikhq> Yeah.
20:02:22 <oklopol> that
20:02:29 <oklopol> *-that
20:02:45 <pikhq> ???
20:02:56 <oklopol> i was gonna write something but decided not to :)
20:03:04 <oklopol> then accidentally pressed enter
20:03:11 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/CRPG/
20:03:41 <oklopol> i made a qbasic formula 1 game when i was 8
20:03:49 <oklopol> it was straight from a book though, for the most part: )
20:03:57 <oklopol> i just added points and stuff
20:04:01 <oklopol> score
20:04:09 <pikhq> I had just barely gotten player movement working.
20:04:22 <oklopol> arrays were too hard for me to understand, iirc :DD
20:04:51 <pikhq> I don't remember even finding a mention of them until I moved on to non-BASIC languages.
20:04:54 <oklopol> guess that was due to the fact 8-year-olds aren't generally that good with reading examples from a book
20:05:00 <pikhq> (Ah, Tcl. . . :D)
20:05:42 <pikhq> I at least *think* Tcl was the first one that I was serious about coding in; before that, I'd mostly done pointless toys.
20:05:50 <oklopol> i just knew basic and c at that time, and i was too scared to touch c
20:06:07 <RodgerTheGreat> I got a copy of QBASIC for dummies and learned a fair amount from that, and then a lot really clicked for me later while reading the DarkBASIC manual
20:06:13 * oklopol still hasn't made anything but pointless toys
20:06:16 <pikhq> I didn't truly learn C until very, very recently.
20:06:19 <pikhq> Hmm.
20:06:43 <pikhq> Oh, yeah. I'd done Javascript long before Tcl. Created some somewhat useless but 'serious' scripts in it.
20:07:08 <oklopol> i'm not sure what you mean by serious
20:07:29 <pikhq> I, uh, am no longer sure what I meant by it either.
20:09:06 <RodgerTheGreat> the definition of "serious" is constantly revised as we become progressively better programmers
20:09:48 <RodgerTheGreat> and I'm certain that all of us can look back on ourselves even a year ago and find ourselves now to be tremendously better at coding.
20:11:11 <pikhq> What I did a year ago involved something more than 100 lines of code being outstanding. . .
20:11:40 <pikhq> (I've done a hell of a lot of coding in the past year, and didn't do quite so much previously)
20:11:56 <oklopol> i've never written a long program really, but i can't really think of anything that requires a long code
20:12:06 <oklopol> usually it's redundant stuff people get it long with
20:12:55 <pikhq> Compiler.
20:13:33 <RodgerTheGreat> anything with a GUI gets pretty long without really requiring a ton of effort
20:13:43 <RodgerTheGreat> games generally get pretty complex, too
20:13:59 <RodgerTheGreat> most things can be done under a few thousand lines
20:17:38 <Sukoshi> My torrent client is already at like 500 lines, and it's just the parser and the structure :D
20:19:29 <RodgerTheGreat> the other thing to remember is that the value of line count is heavily dependent on coding style. I tend to write things very densely, so most of my classes are only a few hundred lines long in complex cases
20:19:51 <Sukoshi> I use a lot of line breaks.
20:20:26 <Sukoshi> I seperate variable definitions from code with a line break, I seperate loops and conditionals from code with line breaks, in C I seperate malloc allocate/check blocks with line-breaks, etc.
20:22:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I usually only use line breaks to indicate a "hole" in code where I'm still working or to break up method definitions for different types of tasks.
20:22:46 <RodgerTheGreat> much of my code organization is based on vertical arrangement of methods in a sensible fashion
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20:23:35 <oklopol> compilers get long, true
20:23:43 <oklopol> and guis, but guis i never make for that reason :)
20:23:53 <pikhq> GUIs? Long?
20:23:58 <RodgerTheGreat> generally, contructors-code that is important to the functioning of the class-accessors and oneliners-"utility routines" that I might want to copy-pasta later on.
20:24:04 <oklopol> pikhq: i've done c mostly
20:24:09 <oklopol> they like to get lonf
20:24:10 <oklopol> *long
20:25:50 <pikhq> Tcl == short GUIs.
20:25:51 <pikhq> ;)
20:26:28 <Sukoshi> Tk == My eyeeeesssss
20:26:30 <Sukoshi> .
20:26:51 <pikhq> pack [button -text "Hello, world!" -command exit]
20:30:37 <pikhq> Admittedly, Tk would be nicer if it used GTK or Qt widgets on Unices. . .
20:31:54 <jix> has anyone implemented a ski evaluater in thue?
20:32:03 <pikhq> http://tktable.sourceforge.net/tile/index.html I bet something could be done with this.
20:33:40 <jix> remind me to not evaluate ...sii..sii with the javascript thue interpreter again....
20:33:54 <oklopol> jix: haven't seen one
20:34:11 <jix> ok so i haven't wasted 1hour of time....
20:34:29 <oklopol> someone should make a listing of all eso->eso translation
20:34:35 <oklopol> *translations
20:34:49 <jix> oklopol: there is such a list on the wiki for interpreters
20:34:59 <oklopol> jix: you made it in one hour or you made it for one hour, then thought there might already be one?
20:35:08 <oklopol> jix: indeed
20:35:10 -!- ihope has joined.
20:35:17 <jix> oklopol: i completed it and it took me one hour...
20:35:24 -!- RedDak has joined.
20:35:27 <jix> but i thought i should ask in here whether someone else did that....
20:35:32 <ihope> #haskell and #esoteric: the pair that something can probably be said about.
20:36:39 <jix> hm?
20:37:06 <oklopol> jix: can i see the interpreter?
20:43:43 <jix> no there is still a bug in there :/
20:45:23 <bsmntbombdood> i think i wrote an abstraction eliminator once
20:48:14 <bsmntbombdood> yes
20:51:02 <jix> i can reduce ....s.k.si..s.kkix'x to .'xx
20:51:09 <jix> any other test cases so i can find potential bgus?
20:51:12 <jix> *bugs
20:51:53 <bsmntbombdood> wtf sntax is tat?
20:51:56 <oerjan> . is unlambda ` ? what is ' ?
20:52:09 <jix> x is one var 'x is another one ''x yet another one
20:52:41 <jix> the thue source would have been very large if i'd add x y z or something....
20:53:26 <jix> S(K(SI))(S(KK)I)ab would be the standard syntax
20:54:17 <bsmntbombdood> parsers elude me
20:54:33 <jix> hm?
20:56:06 <jix> i shouldn't use that javascript interpreter...
20:57:08 <oklopol> my python interpreter is clever enough to terminate ```sii``sii after a while
20:57:55 <pikhq> Does it do infinite loops in 2 seconds?
20:58:05 <oklopol> no, chuck beats it.
21:00:45 <oerjan> try ......s..s.kski..s..s.kski..s..s.kskix'x
21:02:30 <jix> nargh sometimes i get deadlocks even with my example
21:02:49 <bsmntbombdood> my ski reducer does an infinite loop in about...3 seconds
21:03:04 <jix> bsmntbombdood: it can't do any infinte loop in 3 seconds....
21:03:22 <bsmntbombdood> yes it can
21:03:55 <jix> no that's impossible
21:04:49 <bsmntbombdood> actually it's 4.7 seconds, sorry
21:05:19 <bsmntbombdood> $ time echo -e '```SII``SII\n:q' | python ski_repl.py
21:05:25 <bsmntbombdood> real 0m4.714s
21:07:55 <jix> i give up....
21:08:03 <jix> bsmntbombdood: but that is just one infinte loop
21:08:34 <jix> i could write a program that infinte loops if some large number is prime and it doesn't if it's not prime...
21:08:46 <jix> so you are saying you can do a prime check in constant time....
21:09:10 <bsmntbombdood> write it in combinatory logic and we'll find out
21:09:14 <jix> ^^
21:09:55 <jix> you claim to solve the halting problem... which is impossible
21:10:34 <ehird`> the halting problem is impossible for turing machines, sure
21:10:39 <ehird`> that doesn't mean it;'s impossible for everything
21:10:53 <oklopol> jix: i'm pretty sure bsmntbombdood is aware of that :)
21:11:02 <jix> oklopol: yeah probably....
21:12:49 <oklokok> http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/ how the hell do you use the multiplication in there?
21:13:00 <oklokok> either it doesn't work or my interpreter is flawed
21:14:25 <oklokok> actually it does work
21:14:33 <oklokok> my keyboard, however, does not.
21:15:21 <oklopol> oh, it disconnected
21:15:22 <oklopol> weird
21:15:57 <jix> i get database errors quite often when browsing the wiki...
21:16:51 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
21:17:03 <jix> that's quite annoying
21:17:15 <ehird`> we all do
21:18:19 -!- ttm has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:19:08 -!- kwertii has quit.
21:20:08 <GregorR-L> "They eat birds. They eat mammals." "We're mammals." "Yeah we are."
21:20:18 <pikhq> "They"?
21:22:03 <GregorR-L> Red-tail boa constrictors.
21:22:08 * GregorR-L is watching Dirty Jobs :P
21:22:29 <bsmntbombdood> i was constricted by a boa constrictor once
21:22:51 <pikhq> You've got an SKI interpreter. . . Which detects infninite loops?
21:23:00 <pikhq> Either it doesn't always do so, or you're a god.
21:23:16 <bsmntbombdood> no, it just detects expressions that take longer than n reductions to reduce
21:23:45 <pikhq> Ah.
21:24:06 <GregorR-L> pikhq: He wouldn't have to be a god, he would just have to have discovered and implemented a theory of computation that's higher-level than Turing Completeness.
21:24:15 <GregorR-L> Or rather, more powerful than a Turing Machine.
21:24:21 <ehird`> GregorR-L, Isn't it the same thing?
21:24:26 <ehird`> ;)
21:24:26 <bsmntbombdood> ...and implemented it
21:24:39 <GregorR-L> bsmntbombdood: Hence "discovered and implemented"
21:24:47 <bsmntbombdood> oops
21:24:48 <GregorR-L> ehird`: Well yeah, but I thought the later was more clear :P
21:25:07 <bsmntbombdood> it's not known that there is no higher model of computation
21:25:13 <GregorR-L> bsmntbombdood: Did you make the infinity machine?!?!?
21:25:50 <bsmntbombdood> infinity machine?
21:26:24 <GregorR-L> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/infinity.html
21:28:35 <pikhq> GregorR-L: And implemented. . . On a finite state automaton.
21:28:54 <GregorR-L> pikhq: He only said he had an interpreter, not that it ran on a standard computer.
21:29:30 <pikhq> He wrote it in Python, and interpreted it on a UNIX box. Ergo, probably an FSA.
21:31:35 <GregorR-L> It's for InfiPython, and has version checks to run as well as it can on a real computer, though lacking its most important (and infinite) feature.
21:32:02 -!- Figs has joined.
21:32:09 <Figs> http://www.softwaredeveloper.com/features/ghosts-in-machine-071207/
21:32:11 <Figs> :D
21:32:26 <Figs> An article on 12 languages that never took off
21:32:56 <Figs> (considering their choices for some of them, I question whether they really thought they were meant to be used as practical languges O.o)
21:33:05 <Figs> Brainfuck and Befunge, for example...
21:33:24 <ehird`> Brainfuck/Befunge are not "serious" languages
21:33:27 <ehird`> This /is/ #esoteric
21:33:40 <Figs> I'm talking about the article I posted the link to
21:33:42 <Figs> :)
21:33:52 <Figs> I've been here before ^.^ (though not much recently)
21:34:25 <Figs> I thought you guys might like the article, so, voila! I'm here!
21:34:41 <oklopol> hi Figs, you taught me paint hacks
21:34:42 <oklopol> :)
21:34:56 <Figs> hi oklopol :)
21:34:56 <ehird`> "try programming in brainfuck for about 15 minutes, but anything beyond that and the damage to your cerebrum might be irreversible." oh, that's why i laugh manically.
21:35:02 <Figs> :D
21:35:49 <Figs> I'm still working on my language -- rewriting the regex library in C++ for the umpteenth time :)
21:36:02 <bsmntbombdood> stupid article writer
21:36:38 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood, ++
21:36:43 <Figs> I don't know if it was meant to be serious or not ;)
21:36:50 <bsmntbombdood> i think it is
21:36:55 <Figs> Some of them are
21:37:06 <GregorR-L> Yeah, that's a pretty terrible article.
21:37:07 <Figs> but others look like they just put them in there for the wtf factor
21:39:17 <ehird`> also haskell doesn't belong on that list.
21:39:25 <ehird`> and delphi, most certainly not - it's huge
21:39:39 <Figs> I haven't finished reading the article actually ;P
21:40:27 <RodgerTheGreat> nearly half of these languages are esolangs- this article is ridiculous
21:41:08 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR-L: that infinity machine isn't super turing i don't think
21:41:11 <Figs> Actually the objections to haskell seem valid, if poorly presented
21:41:14 <RodgerTheGreat> VRML isn't even a programming language!
21:41:37 <Figs> It's a hard language to learn.
21:41:45 <Figs> (If you aren't familiar with the concepts.)
21:41:52 <GregorR-L> bsmntbombdood: Sure it is. All you have to do is infinity { runMyTCProgram(); halted = 1; } if (halted) { ... } else { ... }
21:42:10 <Figs> O_o
21:42:11 <bsmntbombdood> ...perhaps i didn't read hard enough
21:43:55 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood, it can run infinity instructions in 2 seconds
21:44:07 <pikhq> ehird`: Only 15 minutes to go insane?
21:44:16 <pikhq> Weak.
21:44:20 <Figs> :P
21:44:20 <ehird`> that is super-turing. you could, for example, run an operation on every non-negative integer
21:44:25 <ehird`> in 2 seconds.
21:45:18 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: It can run infinite instructions in finite time. Ergo, it can solve the halting problem merely by running a program until it either halts or infinity passes by.
21:45:45 <Figs> actually, I don't think I'd ever heard of REBOL before this article O.o
21:45:53 <Figs> or if I'd heard of it, never knew what it was
21:46:13 <pikhq> I believe that there is no halting problem on the Infinite Machine; the same solution for Turing machines is also valid for itself.
21:46:14 <ehird`> rebol is pretty well known
21:46:31 <Figs> might be, but I didn't know about it.
21:46:52 <ehird`> some sci-fi along these lines: http://qntm.org/responsibility
21:46:57 <ehird`> (super-turing)
21:47:29 <Figs> hey, you've seen this, right?
21:47:30 <Figs> http://www.xs4all.nl/~weegen/eelis/analogliterals.xhtml
21:48:59 <RodgerTheGreat> neat
21:49:02 <RodgerTheGreat> I like it
21:49:04 <ehird`> hah
21:49:23 <Figs> ;)
21:49:32 <RodgerTheGreat> most code editors would royally suck at making the 2d literals, though
21:50:00 <Figs> I think the 3d ones would be more annoying ;)
21:50:11 <ehird`> Figs, use befunge syntax highlighting
21:50:16 <ehird`> er, wait.
21:50:19 <Figs> O_o
21:50:21 <ehird`> that'd be 2d
21:50:33 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, 3d is even worse
21:51:00 <Figs> you don't actually have to write it vertically though
21:51:08 <Figs> you could just write it all in a line ;)
21:51:47 <pikhq> 5d?
21:52:10 * pikhq still thinks that he ought to write a Dimensifuck editor sometime. . .
21:52:14 <RodgerTheGreat> would 5d be a grid of cubes or something?
21:52:33 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: you can represent it that way
21:53:05 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
21:53:09 <Figs> hmm, it would be interesting to have to program in rotations of a cube
21:53:57 <Figs> basically, each cube would have 12 functions....
21:54:06 <Figs> depending which edge is facing forward
21:54:52 <Figs> an esoteric visual language, hmm?
21:55:03 <Figs> ohh!
21:55:32 <RodgerTheGreat> I was thinking of 6 functions, for each face, taking the rotation of the face as a parameter from 1-4
21:55:46 <Figs> make it so that the cubes vibrate at certain frequencies depending which side is up, and you have to balance the interference between multiple cubes you put in a pool of water and "gates" that execute functions
21:56:29 <RodgerTheGreat> sounds like a very complex version of noit o' mnain worb.
21:56:40 <Figs> might be. I don't know what that is :)
21:57:18 <RodgerTheGreat> lemme see if I can find a description- it's a pretty obscure one
21:57:39 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, bingo: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Noit_o'_mnain_worb
21:58:43 <oklopol> why did i read that "noir's normal form"
21:59:02 <RodgerTheGreat> massive dyslexia?
21:59:04 <RodgerTheGreat> :D
21:59:50 <Figs> haha :)
21:59:58 <Figs> I have got to design something based on that idea
22:00:22 <oklopol> i thought you had a typo :D
22:00:34 <Figs> perhaps with the ability to add compression
22:00:40 <Figs> so that i can say "this whole pressure block is henceforth called 'x'"
22:01:08 <RodgerTheGreat> I suggest taking the basic mechanisms of worb and trying to make it more practical for the creation of useful circuits and the like
22:01:11 <RodgerTheGreat> oklopol: lol
22:01:24 <Figs> how would you make a timer in a system like that?
22:01:49 <RodgerTheGreat> Figs: a loop with something that generated output in response to the loop being in a particular state
22:02:15 <RodgerTheGreat> maybe add some kind of high-level "remote gate switching" or "remote spawning" capability
22:03:03 <Figs> oh
22:03:16 <Figs> what about making a language where ! is a pulsator
22:03:26 <Figs> and you put 'o's around it
22:03:36 <Figs> and when a signal hits a o
22:03:48 <Figs> it causes any !'a next to it to emit a pulse
22:03:53 <RodgerTheGreat> ooh
22:04:07 <Figs> then you can use ^><v to change the direction of pulses
22:04:33 <RodgerTheGreat> sounds like a marriage of worb and befunge- intriguing
22:04:50 <Figs> I'm not sure what to do if pulses colide
22:05:16 <RodgerTheGreat> pairs would cancel out, triples would leave one unscathed, tetrads would cancel out, etc
22:05:29 <RodgerTheGreat> that would make logic gates simpler to construct
22:05:43 <oklopol> i also read that void main (void)
22:05:56 <Figs> ok, what's the order of operations for cancelling?
22:06:04 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
22:06:15 <Figs> clockwise with down being prevalent?
22:06:36 <Figs> ie, v, >, v, < in that order of remainders?
22:06:47 <RodgerTheGreat> I was just thinking directly opposing forces cancel first
22:06:54 <Figs> ok
22:07:01 <oklopol> worb sounds great
22:07:10 <Figs> gee, I could have a lot of fun with this
22:07:15 <oklopol> i should really read the wiki through
22:07:19 <RodgerTheGreat> however, your solution may yield less undefined behavior
22:07:32 <RodgerTheGreat> http://catseye.tc/projects/worb/doc/worb.html
22:07:43 <Figs> oh
22:07:43 <RodgerTheGreat> ^ that is a much more detailed description
22:07:54 <Figs> we also need one way one way mirrors
22:08:06 <RodgerTheGreat> could be useful
22:08:35 <RodgerTheGreat> just use / and \- they always generate a pulse in the original direction and in the reflected direction
22:09:02 <ehird`> .. i still like Mover
22:09:09 <Figs> I think / and \ should be general mirrors
22:09:14 <Figs> rotating 90 degrees
22:09:24 <Figs> ie, for /
22:09:26 <RodgerTheGreat> if ! simply generated a pulse in all directions when hit, it would auto-cancel the originating direction
22:09:29 <Figs> if you come in > it goes ^
22:09:33 <Figs> and < goes v
22:09:39 <RodgerTheGreat> then you could use o as a signal "absorber"
22:09:39 <Figs> ^ goes >
22:09:51 <Figs> yeah, o obsorbs and activates whatever it touches
22:10:00 <Figs> that might be better than one way mirrors
22:10:24 <Figs> non premade characters allow for the definition of new constructors in a space
22:10:25 <RodgerTheGreat> agreed- just use ! with an arrangement of o around it to block unwanted pulses
22:10:40 <Figs> well, what I was thinking was for the xor gate
22:10:53 <Figs> a one way mirror
22:11:15 <Figs> ie, if you hit it from one direction, it reflects
22:11:18 <Figs> but the other, it goes through
22:11:27 <RodgerTheGreat> hm.
22:11:34 <Figs> how about $
22:11:36 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I'll bbiab- food
22:11:45 <Figs> vertical would be allowed through
22:11:53 <Figs> horizontal would bounce
22:12:00 <Figs> no!
22:12:00 <Figs> better
22:12:03 <Figs> use ( and )
22:12:20 <Figs> ie, *) bounces back <--
22:12:21 <Figs> but
22:12:28 <Figs> )* keeps going <--
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22:13:36 <Figs> actually,
22:13:42 <Figs> the other way around makes more senes
22:13:44 <Figs> *sense
22:13:47 <Figs> *) -->
22:13:55 <Figs> )* bounces -->
22:14:06 <Figs> from up/down, it'd just absorb
22:14:28 <Figs> hitting from both sides at the same time would only return one pulse
22:14:37 -!- calamari has quit (Client Quit).
22:14:51 <Figs> heh, this will be fun to write
22:14:57 <Figs> # is a wall
22:15:12 <Figs> @ would be an input or output
22:15:46 <Figs> well just say components have hyper time
22:15:59 <Figs> and are executed as a single step in higher constructs
22:17:00 * pikhq needs some help with writing a regexp. . .
22:17:10 <pikhq> (I suck at regexps)
22:17:43 <pikhq> I'm trying to get something which matches either a digit or "."
22:17:55 <oklopol> [.+-0]
22:17:57 <oklopol> ...
22:18:01 <oklopol> [.0-0]
22:18:02 <oklopol> [.0-9]
22:18:12 <oklopol> ^^^^^^
22:18:45 <oklopol> i've never actually used regexes though
22:20:09 <Figs> http://regexlib.com/CheatSheet.aspx
22:22:07 <pikhq> . . . Never mind. The bug I was having wasn't even in my various attempts at a regexp.
22:22:18 <pikhq> *All* my attempts matched correctly. -_-'
22:24:25 <Figs> :p
22:24:33 <Figs> pERL?
22:24:37 <Figs> err... *Perl?
22:24:43 <ehird`> tcl id guess
22:24:47 <Figs> ah
22:25:13 -!- calamari has joined.
22:25:39 <pikhq> And ehird is right.
22:26:56 <oerjan> What does he win? :)
22:27:07 <ehird`> an infinity machine
22:27:28 <Figs> DIY invisible notebook kit
22:27:43 <Figs> it's invisible, and you can't feel it either!
22:27:51 <Figs> Your secrets are _utterly_ secure :)
22:28:08 <Figs> From LotsOfCrap2k Technologies!
22:28:51 <Figs> we need a duplicator
22:28:53 <oerjan> I want to complain. My dog ate my invisible notebook!
22:29:12 <oerjan> (You said nothing about smell)
22:30:02 <oerjan> Figs: ask Oklo{pol,kok}
22:30:11 <Figs> ?
22:30:22 <oerjan> He looks fairly duplicated to me
22:30:24 -!- Figs has changed nick to Oklo{pol|kok}.
22:30:37 <Oklo{pol|kok}> :D
22:30:45 -!- Oklo{pol|kok} has changed nick to Figs.
22:31:10 <Figs> what about %
22:31:16 <Figs> is that a good re-emiter?
22:31:34 <Figs> if you hit it, it shoots out *'s in every other direction
22:31:43 <Figs> # will be walls
22:31:57 <Figs> if you hit a wall, the pulse gets destroyed
22:32:29 <Figs> if a pulse enters from a side with multiple @'s
22:32:36 <Figs> it is created at each at
22:32:43 <Figs> *at each @
22:34:23 <Figs> #@@#
22:34:23 <Figs> @%%@
22:34:23 <Figs> @%%@
22:34:23 <Figs> #@@#
22:34:36 <Figs> a simple program to re-emit any pulse
22:34:41 <Figs> in all directions
22:42:53 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm back
22:42:58 <RodgerTheGreat> howdy, calamari
22:43:24 <Figs> maybe I should limit the lifetime of a particle to 10,000 steps
22:48:02 <ihope> You should write a program using only water and vacuum in two dimensions, assuming that the water can't change phase or volume.
22:48:13 <ihope> Or any of its other properties, really, except pressure and velocity.
22:48:46 <Figs> well, if I do this (dunno if I will, just fun to think about)
22:48:58 <Figs> I'll just make it pulses
22:49:08 <Figs> easier to think about for me to write the system ;)
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23:55:56 <Figs> I figured out how to make a timing circuit!
23:56:03 <Figs> > %
23:56:26 <Figs> once fired, it will emit pulses every 4 steps
23:57:01 <Figs> 012 FIRE! 012 FIRE! ... like that
23:57:19 <Figs> or 1 2 3 Fire!
23:57:23 <Figs> if you prefer to think that way
23:58:08 <oklopol> 012 FIRE! -> OMG FIRE
23:58:09 <oklopol> xD
23:58:31 <oklopol> i seem to really have a newfound dyslexia
23:59:27 <Figs> :P
23:59:36 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/4vrzsK64.html
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