00:13:41 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:14:47 -!- jix has joined. 00:21:43 me deskewer is slow as hell 00:23:10 actually...not 00:27:44 the output of /dev/audio isn't random at all 00:29:13 blech 00:48:05 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 01:08:44 -!- Mahjong has quit ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )"). 01:13:08 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 01:15:59 -!- jix has joined. 01:20:46 -!- aschmack has joined. 01:54:32 bsmntbombdood: the output of /dev/random is probably a bit more random. 01:54:38 a bit 01:54:45 But still a PRNG. 01:54:58 wrong 01:55:05 /dev/random uses real entropy 01:55:11 . . . Oh, right. XD 01:55:25 (as opposed to that fake, decreasing entropy?) 01:55:42 as apposed to prng "entropy" 02:04:27 As opposed to /dev/urandom 02:04:37 Or /dev/blum, which probably doesn't exist. 02:06:04 Or as opposed to /dev/null. 02:06:16 Can *you* prove that it's not random? 02:06:22 It might very well emit a 1! 02:34:06 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 02:39:37 Doesn't it not emit anything at all? 02:39:42 Is it blank? 02:40:20 Yeah, blank. 02:42:19 Actually, it emits 0x00. 02:42:40 How many times? 02:42:49 Supposedly oo 02:44:52 So it's equivalent to /dev/zero? 02:45:13 Wikipedia says otherwise. 02:45:16 Hmm. . . I might be wrong. XD 02:45:41 *Am* wrong, rather. 02:45:56 (it does emit 0x00 if it's a 0-on-EOF BFI :p) 02:58:50 * ihope ponders constants 02:59:50 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 03:00:40 When does I ignore its argument? Never. When does K ignore its argument? Never. When does Kx ignore its argument? Always. When does Kxy ignore its argument? Whenever x does. When does S ignore its argument? Never. When does Sx ignore its argument? I'll come back to that one. When does Sxy ignore its argument? Whenever x and y both do. When does Sxyz ignore its argument? I'll come back to... 03:00:41 ...that one as well. 03:01:10 Sx reduces to \yz.xz(yz), and we're looking to know whether the y is ignored. 03:01:42 The y is ignored iff the yz is ignored, I believe, so it's... um, just a minute. 03:02:14 what are you trying to figure out? 03:02:36 I'm trying to come up with a few rules for when an SKI calculus expression is a constant. 03:02:45 Obviously, there's no complete set of rules. 03:03:15 Obviously, such an expression is constant when it's constant. 03:03:29 A constant function, that is. 03:03:46 Whether Sx ignores its argument depends on both x and the next argument. It's whenever x(next argument) ignores its argument. 03:04:28 Sxyz ignores its argument whenever xz(yz) ignores its argument, but actually following this rule could result in nontermination. 03:04:55 I think I conclude that writing a good compiler is really fun. 03:05:11 There's always something to be discovered... 03:07:01 Now, here's a challenge: try to find a constant in SKI calculus whose smallest form is *not* Kx form. 03:07:22 i just wrote a compiler for a string matching language 03:08:42 SKKx 03:08:50 Or, alternately, Ix 03:09:11 Do you mean SK calculus, instead? 03:09:26 (I=(lambda (x) (x))) 03:09:43 SKKx is Kx(Kx) which is x, which may not be a constant. Ix is x, which may not be a constant. 03:11:31 Hmm. Tricky. 03:11:50 SIKx? 03:12:13 SIKx is Ix(Kx) which is x(Kx). Is that always a constant? 03:12:32 Fik. 03:13:21 * pikhq prefers lambda calc. . . (lambda () ()) 03:13:45 SKI is easier to express :-) 03:14:24 Yeah, but lambda is shinier. 03:14:43 When converting lambda calculus into SKI calculus, since many parts of the expression sometimes don't contain the argument, it may be useful to optimize "weird" constants to "obvious" ones. 03:14:59 Then again, if an argument is ignored, it probably won't even be present. 03:16:19 SKSKx 03:19:28 SKSKx is KK(SK)x which is Kx, but Kx is shorter than SKSKx. 03:21:54 You asked for the shortest constant not of the form "Kx". 03:22:07 SKSKx != Kx (although they reduce to the same thing) 03:22:28 No, a constant whose shortest form is not Kx. 03:22:35 Ah 03:22:36 . 03:22:57 Rather, whose shortest form is not of the form Kx. 03:22:58 I don't think there's any other functions which can ignore its argument. 03:24:03 Well, Sxy *can*, but I think that's doomed to reduce to Kx. 03:24:26 Any functions other than what? 03:25:10 Kx. 03:25:23 Well, any that are guaranteed to. 03:25:35 Is S(Kx)(Ky) something you'd say reduces to K(xy)? 03:26:22 yes 03:26:54 Well, S(Kx)(Ky) certainly isn't shorter than K(xy). 03:27:17 KxzKyz 03:27:34 If there's something whose Kx form uses a variable more times than some other form does... 03:27:46 Reduces to xy. 03:27:58 You mean Kxz(Kyz)? 03:28:05 . . . Right. XD 03:28:18 Hrmm. . . 03:28:26 Well, K(xy)z is shorter... 03:28:49 And Kxz(Kyz) isn't a constant; its an expression whose value doesn't depend on the value of some variable. 03:29:24 You're the one who suggested S(Kx)(Ky). 03:29:46 Well, it's longer than K(xy). 03:30:14 Yes. . . Anything not of the form K(xy) is doomed to be. 03:30:48 Anything not of the form K(xy) is doomed to be longer than its corresponding K(xy) form? 03:32:11 Well, yeah. . . 03:32:13 -!- ihope_ has joined. 03:32:31 When you specify "not of the shortest way possible", you shouldn't be surprised when it's longer than that. 03:32:34 -_-' 03:34:14 -!- aschmack has quit ("No beer and no TV makes Homer go something"). 03:38:33 Did I imply that S(Kx)(Ky) was shorter than K(xy)? 03:49:44 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out). 03:49:50 No, you complained about it being longer, almost as though you expected something shorter. 03:53:46 * ihope_ shrugs 03:55:23 Now, K(xyy) can also be stated as K(SS(KI)xy)... 04:05:34 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 05:07:50 Hmm. 05:25:42 -!- ihope_ has quit (Connection timed out). 05:30:50 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:35:36 -!- Sillyman has joined. 05:36:04 quit 05:36:05 -!- Sillyman has left (?). 06:18:45 -!- tokigun_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:51:21 -!- tokigun has joined. 07:39:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:43:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:09:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:54:28 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:19:49 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 09:57:14 -!- jix has joined. 10:16:34 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 10:18:12 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 10:18:47 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 10:22:08 -!- RedDak has joined. 10:38:27 night all 10:38:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:39:34 -!- sebbu has quit (Success). 10:40:36 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:41:19 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 10:41:19 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 10:45:59 -!- RedDak has quit ("I'm quitting... Bye all"). 12:16:52 -!- ehird` has joined. 12:17:53 Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | UNRELATED WEBSITE: http://purple.com -- NO, IRP ALLOWED 12:17:56 -!- ehird` has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | UNRELATED WEBSITE: http://purple.com -- NO, IRP ALLOWED. 12:18:05 UNRELATED WEBSITE is the best thign any topic can have 12:32:05 hmm 12:32:20 * ehird` is working on an esolang based on alchemy 12:32:24 it is creatively called Alchemy 13:20:12 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:21:57 -!- jix has joined. 15:06:10 -!- zbrown has left (?). 15:17:09 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:17:23 -!- jix has joined. 16:26:23 -!- Blejdfist has joined. 16:35:58 -!- ihope_ has joined. 16:36:19 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope. 18:18:11 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out). 19:19:28 http://bash.org/?789185 :-S 19:26:58 haha 19:32:40 -!- oklofok has quit ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )"). 21:23:01 -!- cmeme has quit (Excess Flood). 21:25:06 -!- RedDak has joined. 21:25:54 -!- cmeme has joined. 22:07:13 -!- Twangly has joined. 22:10:22 -!- Twangly has quit (Client Quit). 22:26:41 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").