←2007-08-08 2007-08-09 2007-08-10→ ↑2007 ↑all
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00:52:25 <bsmntbombdood> har har!
00:52:32 <bsmntbombdood> that map is public record and denying me access to it is punishable by 90 days in jail
00:52:37 <bsmntbombdood> according to the colorado revised statutes, title 24, section 72, part 2
00:52:45 <bsmntbombdood> i win :)
01:20:22 <SimonRC> zzzzzzzzzzzzz
01:20:30 <SimonRC> yay!
01:20:31 <SimonRC> zzzzzzzzzzzzz
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02:07:20 <UnrelatedToQaz> hey
02:08:36 <Sukoshi> Baz-wha?
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02:18:47 <bsmntbombdood> baz-quux
02:20:04 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: what map?
02:20:15 <bsmntbombdood> ihope: of storm sewers
02:25:33 <ihope> Here, have a law: if an emergency vehicle is approaching, pull over and stop.
02:26:06 <ihope> Apparently no exception is made for freeways.
02:26:29 <bsmntbombdood> so?
02:29:18 <ihope> Oh, I was wondering and... apparently I felt like saying that.
02:33:50 <bsmntbombdood> i hate how in a torrent with many files, all the files are 50% done instead of half of them all done
02:34:21 <bsmntbombdood> s/, all/, often all/
02:36:36 <ihope> Seems that if you're on a freeway and there's an emergency vehicle in the thing connecting the two roads, you're supposed to move one lane "apart" from the vehicle if possible.
02:36:52 <bsmntbombdood> yes
02:37:14 <ihope> What does "one lane apart" mean, exactly?
02:37:23 <bsmntbombdood> one lane away
02:37:29 <ihope> With one lane between the vehicles, or one lane over?
02:37:39 <bsmntbombdood> what?
02:37:42 <ihope> That is, not in the same lane?
02:37:50 <bsmntbombdood> one lane between
02:37:58 * ihope nods
02:38:05 <bsmntbombdood> learning to drive?
02:38:25 <ihope> Yup.
02:38:45 <Sukoshi> Pollution-loving wimps :(
02:39:00 <pikhq> That describes most of the US.
02:39:16 <pikhq> Especially our fondness for urban sprawl and a lack of decent public transportation.
02:39:26 <bsmntbombdood> i have knowledge, so i'm a pollution-loving wimp?
02:43:47 <Sukoshi> If you have knowledge and don't use it, you're a hippy.
02:44:19 <ihope> I guess the government's decided that 120 MPH is the fastest relative we want to have in a head-on collision.
02:44:28 <ihope> s/relative/relative speed/
02:44:55 <bsmntbombdood> wrong, if you're talking about the federal government
02:45:08 <ihope> I said just "the government" for a reason :-P
02:45:28 <ihope> Are there higher speed limits than 55 for two-way traffic elsewhere?
02:45:32 <bsmntbombdood> 75mph is the fastest speed limit allowed if you want to receive highway funding
02:45:36 <ihope> Heck, are there higher speed limits here?
02:46:03 <ihope> Freeways... there's nothing for a while, and then suddenly there's an on-ramp and you find yourself between two cars when there are only two lanes. :-)
02:46:10 <bsmntbombdood> that is, a state must have a maximum speed limit <= 75mph to get highway funding
02:46:35 <ihope> Can states have a speed limit of 75 on a two-way road?
02:47:03 <bsmntbombdood> i think states can have whatever speed limits they like
02:47:35 <ihope> Well, yeah, but if they want highway funding.
02:47:39 <ihope> "In 1865, the revised Locomotive Act reduced the speed limit to 4 mph in the country and 2 mph in towns." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limit
02:48:18 <bsmntbombdood> that is of dubious constitutionality, in my opinion
02:57:52 <Sukoshi> http://www.isbc.com/business/mistakes.cfm
02:58:23 <bsmntbombdood> i can has 640k?
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03:16:46 <ihope_> There. Now that everything's upgraded and I have my wireless connection working again, I can actually start work on that Unlambda interpreter.
03:18:52 <bsmntbombdood> how are you going to do it?
03:19:21 <ihope_> Haskell, monads...
03:21:30 <bsmntbombdood> and the call/cc?
03:22:47 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder if you can implement call/cc with tree-rewriting
03:25:23 <ihope_> Continuation monads.
03:25:28 <ihope_> Rather, a continuation monad.
03:25:55 <bsmntbombdood> so you're compiling to haskell or what?
03:27:34 <ihope_> Parsing into a Haskell data structure and then running.
03:29:48 <bsmntbombdood> write an unlambda to brainfuck compiler in unlambda
03:32:52 <ihope_> Why not a Haskell-to-Unlambda compiler?
03:33:06 <bsmntbombdood> because that's too large
03:33:16 <ihope_> Pff.
03:33:34 <bsmntbombdood> although simplified haskell to unlambda might be interesting
03:33:36 * ihope_ decides that adding a useful combinator to Unlambda is worth removing its comment functionality
03:34:08 <bsmntbombdood> haskell is just too complicated to write a compiler for fun for
03:34:22 <ihope_> Mm, gotta go.
03:34:29 <ihope_> Bye.
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03:36:34 <bsmntbombdood> i have no idea how to compile a functional language to bf
03:38:43 <pikhq> PEBBLE functions. :p
03:40:07 <bsmntbombdood> are they first order?
03:40:15 <bsmntbombdood> er, first class
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03:43:57 <pikhq> No, I mean "functions" as in "they work".
03:44:02 <pikhq> Err.
03:44:04 <pikhq> "it works".
03:45:14 <GregorR> Hahaha
03:45:27 <bsmntbombdood> oh
05:29:47 <RodgerTheGreat> g'night everyone
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07:41:09 <oklokok> (bsmntbombdood) i hate how in a torrent with many files, all the files are 50% done instead of half of them all done <<< get a good torrent program...
07:41:22 <bsmntbombdood> like?
07:41:28 <oklokok> or make one
07:44:01 <oklokok> torrent for one
07:44:18 <oklokok> you have to manually tell it to dl them one by one though
07:44:43 <oklokok> you can assign separate dl speeds for individual files
07:45:19 <bsmntbombdood> isn't that windows only?
07:46:40 <oklokok> i have no idea... but perhaps.
07:46:57 <oklokok> i have a feeling there are decent programs for unix as well...
07:47:49 <oklokok> actually, the reason i'm doing my torrenting on this machine is that i can use torrent
07:47:54 <oklokok> bittorrent sucks ass
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08:38:06 <Sukoshi> Deluge is the equivalent for *nix, bsmntbombdood.
08:38:18 <Sukoshi> Once I found Deluge, I pretty much abandoned my own torrent client.
08:38:25 <Sukoshi> (Even though I had most of it done.)
08:38:42 <bsmntbombdood> hmm
08:39:06 <Sukoshi> I'm going to start hacking at Deluge though. First thing I want to do is add stuff from BitTyrant's new BT paper.
08:39:22 <bsmntbombdood> what stuff?
08:39:51 <Sukoshi> They have a new piece obtaining and queueing algorithm to speed up a torrent.
08:43:22 <bsmntbombdood> azureus' peer dht is pretty nice
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10:38:03 <GreaseMonkey> night all
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12:33:52 <UnrelatedToQaz> !info ololobot
12:34:00 <UnrelatedToQaz> Wrong channel...
12:34:02 <UnrelatedToQaz> hang on.
12:34:13 <UnrelatedToQaz> There.
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12:37:07 <oklokok> :D
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15:44:49 <wellons> Does anyone know about a brainfuck implementation that can multithread several programs working on the same memory array?
15:46:02 <oklokok> ?
15:46:12 <oklokok> like a boring brainfork?
15:46:25 <oklokok> seveninchbread did something like that
15:53:44 <wellons> hmm... i see, thanks
15:54:58 <oklokok> i do not know where
15:55:00 <oklokok> you can get it.
15:55:21 <oklokok> (i had to split to multiple lines for obvious reasons)
15:56:19 <oklokok> if sib comes here, you can ask him, though it isn't exactly that hard making it yourselfidy helfity
15:56:21 <oklokok> skdjgf
15:57:21 <wellons> i wrote something similar yesterday
16:01:49 <wellons> and, i don't see the reason for splitting to multiple lines... :-(
16:09:27 <oklokok> whut?
16:09:35 <oklokok> can i lick your source?
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16:14:58 <wellons> you need subversion, use this command: svn checkout https://opensvn.csie.org/wbf2c/trunk wbf2c
16:15:36 <wellons> i have a website that explains things a bit here: http://www.cse.psu.edu/~wellons/bf/
16:43:17 <oklokok> !bf_gen oklopol
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18:19:45 <SimonRC> http://www.piepalace.ca/blog/asperger-test-aq-test/
18:19:51 <SimonRC> 36 !!
18:24:34 <oklokok> "When I talk, it isn't always easy for others to get a word in edgeways. " like... it's hard to get to say something when i'm saying something?
18:24:56 <oklokok> i actually cannot translate "edgeways" there...
18:25:38 <GregorR> That's partially because the phrase is "can't get a word in edge-WISE"
18:25:51 <oklokok> i do know.
18:25:58 <GregorR> And it means nobody will shut up for long enough to let you talk :)
18:26:02 <oklokok> i still don't know what it means there :<
18:26:05 <oklokok> ah
18:26:12 <oklokok> so i totally failed what it mean
18:26:13 <oklokok> *means
18:26:19 <GregorR> So when this guy talks, he just babbles on and on and on and nobody else can talk.
18:26:28 <oklokok> so i totally got it right
18:26:33 <GregorR> Yeah.
18:26:47 <oklokok> i just wasn't sure
18:26:51 <GregorR> <GregorR> And it means nobody will shut up for long enough to let you talk :) << Was referring to the normal phrase, not his variation :)
18:26:52 <oklokok> now i am
18:26:59 <oklokok> ah
18:27:29 <oklokok> "I would rather go to the theatre than a museum. " you'd have to pay me a lot to get me to either...
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18:30:57 <Arrogant> I'd rather go to the moon than a theater
18:30:59 <oklokok> hmm... i can remember any phone number easily, for just about as long as i like... then again there's no way for me to remember a birthday... so i prolly get "average" on that just for having a weird memory
18:31:27 <oklokok> well, i can remember any number as long as it doesn't mean anything to me
18:31:43 <oklokok> when it gets a meaning, i remember the meaning
18:31:53 * SimonRC has dinner
18:32:23 <oklokok> SimonRC: you got 36?
18:32:30 <oklokok> i'm a mere 28 :\
18:32:32 <SimonRC> yes
18:32:42 * SimonRC is geekier than oklokok!
18:32:44 * SimonRC has dinner
18:32:44 <oklokok> i have a feeling i'd get a better score if i actually talked to a doctor :P
18:33:01 <oklokok> better == bigger
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18:44:28 <wellons> You need javascript for it to work...
18:44:51 <ihope> 44, it says.
18:44:59 <ihope> Not that I answered all the questions honestly.
18:47:16 <sp3tt> oooh, aspies test
18:47:21 * sp3tt tries
18:47:33 <sp3tt> I got like 120/140 on one once :(
18:48:48 <oklokok> well, i'm pretty good at getting friends, but people usually think of me as "the weird guy"
18:50:00 <oklokok> i really can't believe any of you is less geek than me
18:50:21 <oklokok> ...
18:50:22 <oklokok> morte
18:50:23 <oklokok> *more
18:50:24 <sp3tt> 38!
18:50:45 <oklokok> the test must be crooked!
18:52:07 <ihope> I got it up to 49.
18:53:06 <oklokok> actually, i can easily think of any of those options suiting me
18:53:51 <oklokok> those are general big-picture questions, so i basically just pick a random situation i've been in and answer based on that
18:56:12 <oklokok> "I enjoy doing thing spontaneously." <<< thing is a character in addam's family
18:56:19 <oklokok> it's a hand
18:56:24 <oklokok> does this refer to masturbation?
18:56:43 <oklokok> like... hold on a min, i'll do some quick masturbation
18:59:17 <oklokok> i guess i'd have the same answer were it either
19:00:35 <Arrogant> doing thing is a bit different than masturbation
19:01:52 <oklokok> well, i'm deriving it from the fact "masturbation" means "desecrating the hand"
19:03:29 <ihope> Doing Thing.
19:04:14 <oklokok> "bbl guys, gotta do some thing ->"
19:04:29 <oklokok> "i hope you mean something"
19:04:33 <oklokok> "err... yes, sure"
19:04:45 <oklokok> 'something'
19:04:58 <oklokok> i hate how i always fail quoting
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19:32:47 <SimonRC> Actually I think it is "The Thing".
19:33:27 <poiuy_qwert> The Thing is a movie, Thing is the hand from The Adams Family
19:33:39 <SimonRC> ah, ok
19:34:06 <oklokok> the thing is something by King?
19:34:53 <poiuy_qwert> no i dont think so
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20:18:42 <ehird`> random idea for some snippit of code:
20:19:03 <ehird`> accepts mouse-written drawings, then using some kind of OCR, converts it into mathematical notation in real time
20:19:30 <ehird`> so you could e.g. draw 231, a line beneath it, then 500 beneath that, it'd convert it correctly, then display a latexified (or whatever) version at the same size, replacing the drawing
20:19:44 <ehird`> once you've drawn the whole thing, it'll be converted to latex + displayed as an image
20:19:53 <ehird`> and, presumably, you could evaluate it or whatever
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20:20:38 <oklokok> ehird`: like maple?
20:20:57 <oklokok> hmm.. i'm not sure if it does that though... i just know it has something like that
20:21:07 <oklokok> prolly something ridiculously simple
20:21:08 <ehird`> well, i'll show a sort-of-example
20:21:15 <ehird`> i write "1 +" using my mouse
20:21:45 <ehird`> within some very short space of time (hopefully <1 second), it'll disappear and be replaced by whatever latex looks like when rendering the equivilent equation, at roughly the same size
20:21:46 <oklokok> have you seen the video where the guy draws a cart on a blackboard then draws a play button and makes it move?
20:21:50 <ehird`> same as i carry on with the expression
20:22:03 <ehird`> and no
20:22:06 <oklokok> a touchpad that looks like a blackboard that was
20:22:08 <oklokok> cool vid
20:22:42 <ehird`> but anyway
20:22:43 <oklokok> you could draw strings and solid objects and make them move realistically in 2d
20:22:48 <oklokok> uh i wan tthat
20:22:52 <ehird`> it'd be pretty nice to be able to, e.g., get a tablet
20:22:56 <ehird`> start up an app
20:23:08 <ehird`> write some mathematical notation, look up at the app and see it in rendered latex form
20:23:09 <oklokok> also, your thing would be fun if you have a touchpad
20:23:15 <ehird`> and be able to evaluate it and stuff
20:23:54 <ehird`> like maybe if you wrote = and left it for a second it would evaluate :)
20:24:20 <SimonRC> might be good for code too...
20:24:22 <oklokok> hmm... an ski parser that did that would be fun :P
20:24:33 * SimonRC thinks
20:24:35 <oklokok> i know there's a flash thingie, but you don't draw anything in that
20:24:47 <SimonRC> IWBNI you could draw decision trees and tables and turn them into programs
20:25:06 <SimonRC> I am sure this has actually been done before, but not, I suspect, with handwriting recognition.
20:25:24 <SimonRC> Now there is a nice PhD topic
20:25:24 <ehird`> SimonRC: sounds good
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20:25:41 <ehird`> SimonRC: but i think mathematical notation lends itself to being written more than, e.g. a decision tree
20:25:53 <SimonRC> How about Haskell?
20:25:56 <ehird`> anything mathematical is simplest when you write it
20:25:59 <ehird`> thus..
20:26:14 <ehird`> however, programming languages and decision trees and stuff - maybe not, they were designed for keyboard entry
20:26:28 <ehird`> maybe lisp.
20:26:40 <SimonRC> Have you seen a Haskell paper?
20:26:46 <ehird`> nope
20:27:02 <SimonRC> Haskell as programmed in is a mere shadow of the notation that the programmers have in their heads
20:27:22 <SimonRC> in papers, the ASCII-art becomes nice math notations
20:28:01 <ehird`> when i program haskell i see haskell code... not mathematical notation
20:28:40 <SimonRC> (<- => -> become arrows, | bceomes a proper bar, ++ join together, <+> <*> become symbol-in-diamond, etc)
20:28:56 <ehird`> i don't see that =p
20:29:48 <oerjan> they use a preprocessor called lhs2tex
20:30:11 <SimonRC> I know
20:30:43 <SimonRC> I feel that that notation is the "real" Haskell, and the programmed format is an approximation to it.
20:31:01 <ehird`> i think haskell is what the haskell report defines it as.
20:31:18 <oerjan> the programmed format may be older.
20:32:18 <ehird`> show me an example of the notation
20:34:09 <ehird`> <.<
20:34:22 <SimonRC> heh
20:35:24 <ehird`> a big sample
20:35:26 <ehird`> where it's used lots
20:35:29 <ehird`> so i can see what it looks like
20:36:45 <bsmntbombdood> aaah, SimonRC beat me on the aspergers test
20:36:50 <bsmntbombdood> i got a 30
20:37:19 <ehird`> aspergers test?
20:37:39 <ehird`> would this be a scientific, based-in-reality test or a quiz test
20:37:46 <SimonRC> quiz
20:38:14 <ehird`> link
20:38:44 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.piepalace.ca/blog/asperger-test-aq-test/
20:39:22 <bsmntbombdood> it might as well be called a "social ability test"
20:40:00 <SimonRC> except for the bits about dates and telephones and obsession
20:41:07 <ehird`> i'll probably do shite on it
20:41:09 <ehird`> and i have no idea why
20:41:25 <ehird`> quiz/test-type things just always give the opposite of what i really am :p
20:42:54 <ehird`> um
20:42:57 <SimonRC> you are in denial!
20:42:57 <ehird`> WHERE is the submit button
20:43:07 <SimonRC> you fill it in, then you get an answer at the bottom
20:43:11 <bsmntbombdood> THERE is none
20:43:15 <ehird`> hm wtf
20:43:17 <ehird`> 49/50
20:43:17 <bsmntbombdood> it has some javascript fail
20:43:20 <ehird`> which did i miss
20:43:31 <ehird`> ah there
20:43:33 <lament> lots of scheme stuff replaces the word 'lambda' with the symbol lambda
20:43:39 <bsmntbombdood> i hate that
20:43:43 <ehird`> " Scores over 32 are generally taken to indicate Asperger's Syndrome or high-functioning autism, with more than 34 an "extreme" score."
20:43:45 <ehird`> i scored 35...
20:44:17 <ehird`> well; that fits considering i do have aspergers
20:44:23 <bsmntbombdood> the letter lambda looks terrible in a sexp
20:44:38 <bsmntbombdood> it only looks good in church's notation
20:45:36 <lament> at any rate, "texed" haskell certainly looks pretty
20:45:52 <lament> but ascii is not too shabby either
20:46:12 <ehird`> i think i got some of the questions wrong; anyway
20:46:15 <bsmntbombdood> yeah, the tex haskell does look nice
20:46:22 <ehird`> i protrayed myself to be a bit more sociable than i am :p
20:47:20 <lament> i think the whole point of that test is that it examines your opinion of yourself, rather than what you actually are
20:47:30 <lament> for example, the first question "I prefer to do things with others rather than on my own."
20:47:35 <lament> that doesn't even mean anything
20:47:39 <lament> what kind of "things"?
20:47:54 <oklokok> sex is the only thing i like doing with other people
20:48:14 <bsmntbombdood> i took it to mean any personal contact
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20:49:10 <lament> i certainly prefer to do foo, bar and baz with others, while qux and quux i will gladly do on my own.
20:50:39 <lament> "I am fascinated by numbers." - does this belong in a test on aspergers?
20:50:42 <bsmntbombdood> sure
20:50:59 <bsmntbombdood> i hate numbers
20:51:18 <ehird`> i love numbers
20:51:19 <ehird`> :p
20:51:23 <bsmntbombdood> sure to the first statement
20:51:49 <bsmntbombdood> if there's any numbers in it, it's not abstracted enough
20:52:29 <oklokok> helios24 has always been a bit primitive to me
20:53:04 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: just think of numbers as the skeleton category of Set
20:54:44 <bsmntbombdood> it's still a number, whether it's 2 or {{}, {{}}}
20:55:27 <lament> wee, i got 26 on the test
20:55:44 <lament> barely beating a math contest winner
20:58:28 <lament> but of course it's useless without some sort of an indication of possible error size/probability
20:58:50 <lament> which i suspect to be around +- 10...
20:59:00 <lament> or at least +-5
21:00:59 <SimonRC> ± <-- is that a +- sign?
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21:01:47 <oerjan> SimonRC: yes
21:03:47 <ehird`> irc needs some sort of unicode macro system
21:03:55 <ehird`> \+- transforms into ± or something
21:04:07 <bsmntbombdood> ...no
21:04:15 <bsmntbombdood> unicode is evil
21:05:09 <ehird`> unicode is not evil
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21:05:47 * ehird` finds a joined ++ in unicode so he can say "unicode is ++good"
21:11:04 <ehird`>
21:11:07 <ehird`>
21:12:12 <ehird`> someone should modify nethack and make it abuse unicode and control characters to hell
21:12:15 <ehird`> i bet you could get it looking really good
21:13:59 <RodgerTheGreat> &
21:14:24 <ehird`> heh
21:14:30 <ehird`> UNICODE SMILEY ☺
21:14:41 <ehird`> ☾☽
21:14:53 <ehird`>
21:15:42 <ehird`> ooh
21:15:45 <ehird`> what about a unicode befunge
21:15:50 <ehird`> ☝ instead of ^, etc
21:16:58 <ehird`> INTRODUCING THE ‽♯ PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE
21:17:06 <ehird`> Designed to be the first name solely in unicode.
21:17:20 <RodgerTheGreat> oh jesus
21:17:22 <oklokok> my friend made unicode print quite cool mazes
21:17:44 <oklokok> ...yes, he programmed a maze generator in unicode
21:17:59 <olsner> is unicode turing complete?
21:18:16 <olsner> a maze generator *generating* unicode is a different matter entirely
21:20:43 <ehird`> turing complete unicode... that makes my mouth water
21:20:45 <ehird`> that's just crazy
21:20:48 <ehird`> a turing complete CHARACTER SET
21:21:39 <RodgerTheGreat> that would be rather fun
21:21:53 <RodgerTheGreat> just add some control characters that can do branching.... oooh...
21:21:59 <ehird`> fun
21:22:18 <olsner> ;-)
21:23:24 <olsner> the algorithm for bidirectional rendering of text seems quite intricate though - a few carefully inserted extra rules could perhaps make it turing complete
21:24:13 <ehird`> i would love to see 99 bottles of beer in unicode using loops of some sort
21:24:30 <RodgerTheGreat> this is probably rather like my theory that HTML by itself is *very nearly* TC
21:25:10 <ehird`> umm
21:25:11 <ehird`> no it isn't
21:25:19 <ehird`> it has nothing that would make it close to tc
21:25:28 <ehird`> it is in every way the archetypical markup language
21:25:36 <RodgerTheGreat> you can do HTTP redirects (looping)
21:25:50 <ehird`> that doesn't really count
21:25:53 <RodgerTheGreat> form elements and passed parameters via URLs also offer some possibilities
21:25:58 <ehird`> that's not HTML
21:26:01 <ehird`> that's HTML+HTTP
21:26:07 <ehird`> or HTML+some way to handle passed parameters
21:26:08 <RodgerTheGreat> psh
21:27:11 <olsner> javascript ;-)
21:27:52 <RodgerTheGreat> I had an idea a while back for a network protocol in which the packet format represented a TC language that could be used for writing all kinds of networking utilities, games, file-transfer programs and viruses
21:28:17 <ehird`> sounds nicely esoteric
21:28:19 <ehird`> make a spec
21:28:40 <olsner> RodgerTheGreat: make timing matter too ;-)
21:28:56 <olsner> the entire language is one big race condition, hehe
21:29:00 <RodgerTheGreat> and the fun part was that the system itself centered around being p2p- you'd "set up" a network by firing off a worm that would traverse the network and build routing databases on all the computers
21:29:44 <ehird`> that's neat
21:29:44 <bsmntbombdood> how do you stop exploits?
21:29:45 <ehird`> seriously
21:29:46 <ehird`> make it
21:30:02 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: don't allow the interpreter to access HD or just about any unprotected external data, of course
21:30:11 <bsmntbombdood> you can still dos
21:30:22 <RodgerTheGreat> you can ALWAYS do DoS
21:30:36 <bsmntbombdood> you can dos much easier if you're given a turing machine...
21:30:39 <RodgerTheGreat> and yeah, scripts are sandboxed
21:30:54 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: "scripts" - it's just binary data, right?
21:30:55 <ehird`> not a HLL
21:31:04 <RodgerTheGreat> kinda...
21:31:24 <ehird`> i think it should be low-level simple binary data... more like a protocol :)
21:31:33 <ehird`> make a simple assembler or something
21:31:43 <bsmntbombdood> yeah
21:31:45 <RodgerTheGreat> it resembled Redcode a bit, actually
21:32:02 <ehird`> obviously you want the data actually transmitted as compact as humanly possible
21:32:11 <RodgerTheGreat> self-modification and spawning new packets was a common practice, and the loopback device becomes really handy
21:32:13 <ehird`> otherwise the latency for something like, say the WWW, would be staggering
21:32:32 <oklopol> unicode could be tc if you added regexes natively and expanded them with a macro system
21:32:51 <oklopol> anyway, i'm gonna eat a food ->
21:35:18 <lament> I really love the idea of unicode macros
21:35:34 <SimonRC> http://bash.org/?754254
21:35:34 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: how many opcodes do you think you could squeeze it down to?
21:35:39 <ehird`> 8? 16?
21:35:43 <ehird`> 16, surely
21:35:46 <lament> i wonder if there's an implementation alreday
21:35:49 <RodgerTheGreat> 16 would be good
21:35:53 <ehird`> yes
21:36:08 <ehird`> you could name them 0-F for obvious reasons :P
21:36:23 <ehird`> though for actually using the assembler maybe you could think of some better mnemonics, hehe
21:36:31 <ehird`> allow asm macros, though, that act just like an opcode
21:36:39 <ehird`> using only 16 opcodes all the time would be teeeedious
21:37:06 <bsmntbombdood> why 16?
21:37:14 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: 4 bits
21:37:29 <bsmntbombdood> the more opcodes, the less you need, and it's easier to program
21:37:32 <RodgerTheGreat> the spec was never finished, but I was also considering a high-level version that could be like "code"@AA.45.17.BB# to send a chunk of data off to the next machine
21:37:44 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: this is a >network protocol<
21:37:52 <ehird`> compactness is more important than anything
21:38:04 <bsmntbombdood> you would have to make everything memory-mapped, and you use more space anyway for the addresses
21:38:19 <ehird`> there's plenty of tricks you could do
21:38:26 * SimonRC reads up...
21:38:45 <RodgerTheGreat> using a full char would allow for a wide range of opcodes with the added benefit of being able to punch in code in a normal text editor
21:39:23 <bsmntbombdood> i'd assume you would use an assembler..
21:39:26 <ehird`> sure, but it uses more space
21:39:33 <ehird`> and yeah, assembler is a must
21:39:36 <ehird`> otherwise, hex editor
21:39:37 <bsmntbombdood> you use less opcodes
21:39:45 <ehird`> how about 5 bits :D
21:39:53 <ehird`> 32 opcodes should be enough for everyone!
21:39:58 <oklokok> lament: i was just thinking something like kinda like bnf for the macro system... and have tc regexes inbuilt in unicode format. just out of curiosity is that was you had in mind too?
21:40:04 <oklokok> like like like
21:40:10 <olsner> 1 is also a power of 2
21:40:21 <olsner> 0 bits ;-)
21:40:30 <ehird`> heh
21:40:36 <ihope> "Your mom is so fat she sat on a binary tree and turned it into a linked list in constant time!"
21:40:44 <ihope> Technically meaningless, but still funny :-)
21:40:45 <lament> oklokok: i was just thinking of something like tex markup...
21:40:47 <ehird`> ihope: lmao
21:40:58 <ihope> (From SimonRC's link above)
21:41:06 <ehird`> hmm
21:41:15 <ehird`> making a useful machine with 16 opcodes would be a challenge indeed
21:41:18 <ehird`> a fun one, too
21:41:22 <lament> oklokok: otherwise it would be too smart, and do stuff when you don't expect it to
21:41:40 <oklokok> i'll have to look up tex markup
21:41:43 <lament> (just because you type +-, doesn't mean you always want it turned into a single symbol)
21:42:28 <lament> of course it can't be tex markup, because then you won't be able to discuss tex markup :)
21:42:39 <lament> MSN simply uses (foo) for its markup
21:42:42 <lament> (+-)
21:42:56 <lament> obviously that can't work in the context of programming discussions
21:43:09 <oklokok> people have so cute msn nicks
21:43:10 <oklokok> [c=3][c=38][c=27][c=23][c=29][c=46][/c]a[/c]n[/c]s[/c]k[/c]u[/c].krisu, joku teini<<33
21:43:31 <ehird`> oh god the eyes bleed
21:43:33 <oklokok> :P
21:43:39 <ehird`> (the eyes would bleed even more if i had msn plus and could see the colours)
21:43:43 <oklokok> heh
21:44:12 <oklokok> i could see the colors if i put that option on, but i hate colors and i love ascii line noise so that works better for me
21:46:41 * ehird` wonders what's the smallest a single instruction could be cut down to
21:46:48 <ehird`> 4 bits for an opcode is reasonable..
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21:47:14 <SimonRC> oh gods... http://bash.org/?8873
21:47:37 <olsner> hello.jpg?
21:47:46 <olsner> meta-goatse?
21:47:47 <bsmntbombdood> www.goatse.fr?
21:47:52 <ehird`> hello.jpg.jpg
21:47:53 <SimonRC> .cz
21:47:59 <ehird`> a jpg containing a screenshot of hello.jpg
21:48:05 <bsmntbombdood> SimonRC: mirror
21:48:11 <ehird`> hello.(jpg^aleph_0).jpg
21:48:24 <SimonRC> ehird`: indeed. The Tornado fighter used 4-bit opcodes
21:48:31 <SimonRC> in its control computers
21:48:39 <ehird`> SimonRC: did it use 0-F as mnemonics? :p
21:49:24 <olsner> ehird`: do you *really* think it had mnemonics? :P
21:50:01 <ehird`> hehehe
21:51:12 <ehird`> hm, opcodes don't need to be able to take immediate values
21:51:13 <ehird`> do they?
21:51:27 <ehird`> if you have a few registers..
21:51:55 <olsner> I guess you'd need load, store and some way to tell load and store where to load/store from/to
21:52:07 <ehird`> well yes
21:52:09 <ehird`> but apart from that
21:52:51 <olsner> OP <imm> --> LD addr-to-data,reg; OP reg
21:53:06 <olsner> but the address is a kind of immediate ;-)
21:53:17 <ehird`> i meant apart from the address :p
21:53:32 <olsner> then no, you wouldn't need immediates
21:53:37 <ehird`> all i need is LD addr <immediate>, ST addr <immediate> and addresses
21:54:49 * ehird` makes decisions for the architecture
21:54:55 <ehird`> i think i'll use a sign bit it's simple
21:57:16 <ehird`> =)
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21:59:12 <ehird`> hmm
21:59:13 <ehird`> -0
21:59:14 <ehird`> odd
22:03:22 <ehird`> :s
22:35:50 <ehird`> what are the implications of -0
22:41:39 <Sukoshi> YOUR MOM
22:41:42 <ehird`> heh
22:41:44 <ehird`> :/
22:41:45 <ehird`> hmm
22:42:15 * ehird` thinks that he can squeeze a single opcode into 12 bits
22:42:24 <ehird`> err
22:42:26 <ehird`> s/opcode/instruction
22:43:12 <ehird`> no, wait, 8 bits
22:43:35 <ehird`> INS INS INS INS ARG1 ARG1 ARG1 ARG2 ARG2 ARG2
22:43:43 <ehird`> where each argument is a register name
22:43:47 <ehird`> of course, LOAD and STORE would be exceptions
22:44:10 <ehird`> err, what am i talking about
22:44:10 <ehird`> 10 bits
22:44:41 <ehird`> maybe 9 bits
22:44:47 <ehird`> INS INS INS ARG1 ARG1 ARG1 ARG2 ARG2 ARG2
22:44:56 <ehird`> then all of the components are balanced
22:45:11 <ehird`> but... 8 opcodes...
22:46:05 <ehird`> ... good enough. 9 bits is insanely small!
22:46:51 <bsmntbombdood> 8 is better than 9
22:47:11 <ehird`> no, i mean
22:47:12 <Arrogant> 7 is better than 8
22:47:19 <Arrogant> 7 is lucky
22:47:19 <ehird`> III111222 = 9 bits
22:47:25 <ehird`> and III gives me 8 opcodes
22:47:25 <bsmntbombdood> no, byte alligned is good
22:47:33 <Arrogant> but
22:47:35 <ehird`> ok...
22:47:35 <Arrogant> 8 isn't lucky
22:47:38 <ehird`> so what should i make it?
22:47:50 <oerjan> add a parity bit
22:47:54 <ehird`> I I I 1 1 2 2 (SPECIAL QUANTUM CONTAINING BOTH A BIT OF 1 AND 2)
22:49:07 <ehird`> hmm, having LD and ST instructions longer than others could cause real problems
22:49:09 * ehird` wonders
22:51:11 <ehird`> someone suggest an extremely compact instruction format :p
22:51:52 <oerjan> gzip compressed
22:52:16 <bsmntbombdood> ...8 bit opcode, the following bits the operands, the number of which depends on the opcode
22:52:31 <ehird`> wait a minute, i should only need 2 bits for each argument
22:52:36 <ehird`> i mean, 3 registers is enough, right?
22:52:42 <bsmntbombdood> and might as well pipe it through gzip
22:52:43 <bsmntbombdood> no
22:52:52 <bsmntbombdood> you need memory access too
22:53:04 <ehird`> that'd all be done with some special instructions
22:53:07 <ehird`> like
22:53:26 <ehird`> LD REGISTER1 memaddr, MEM REGISTER1
22:53:29 <bsmntbombdood> ...some opcodes take 0 bytes of operand, some take 4
22:53:35 <ehird`> and then REGISTER1 would have the value at memaddr or something
22:53:43 <ehird`> and then you'd have MEMSET memaddr
22:53:44 <ehird`> or something.
22:53:45 <bsmntbombdood> keep it extensible
22:53:56 <ehird`> i'm going for "frickin' tiny", not "extensible"
22:54:19 <bsmntbombdood> being small is stupid if you can't use it
22:55:14 <ehird`> sure
22:55:16 <ehird`> i'm aiming for
22:55:34 <ehird`> 1. relatively usable - if you're familiar with computer internals and asm, you should be able to program it with relative ease
22:55:37 <ehird`> 2. as tiny as possible
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22:58:13 * ehird` wonders what bit-ness he should make the machine
22:58:14 <ehird`> 4-bit? 8-bit?
22:58:30 <ehird`> ..8 bit
22:58:47 <ehird`> question: is nop actually essential?
22:58:54 <ehird`> i mean, i think you could get away without nop most of the time
23:00:24 <ehird`> damnit why is my computer making very high pitched and very short beeps randomly
23:00:32 <ehird`> not "beeeep"
23:00:34 <ehird`> more like "bip!"
23:00:37 <Arrogant> you is been hacked
23:01:06 <ehird`> i is not been hacked
23:01:15 <ehird`> hmm
23:01:20 <ehird`> i really don't think NOP is needed
23:01:39 <olsner> I think NOP is the quintessential non-essential operation :P
23:01:57 <ehird`> sure, but for asm...
23:01:58 <olsner> *perhaps* useful to fill branch delay slots though
23:02:03 <ehird`> it seems to get an absurd amount of use
23:02:18 <ehird`> one very unneeded thing is ifneq
23:02:25 <ehird`> ifneq X Y Z can just be:
23:03:13 <ehird`> 0 ifeq X Y 2
23:03:13 <ehird`> 1 goto Z
23:03:13 <ehird`> 2 stuff
23:05:21 <ehird`> i think i'll drop NOP
23:05:30 <ehird`> if anyone has a convincing argument for it, tell me
23:05:57 <ehird`> olsner: LD addr-to-data,reg
23:06:05 <ehird`> olsner: how would you put this data in the address? :)
23:06:50 <olsner> ehird`: let's say addresses 0-200 is code and 200-250 is data... just LD 201,reg1 to load the contents of address 201 into register 1
23:07:10 <olsner> and ST reg1,201 would put a recalculated value back into memory
23:07:16 <ehird`> ah, right
23:07:17 <ehird`> data sections
23:07:31 <ehird`> (modern assemblers have broken my soul :D)
23:07:46 <olsner> not really - it could be loading code into registers to modify itself
23:07:48 <ehird`> only 200 bits for code though? lame :P
23:08:19 <olsner> nah, just let bits 0-31 control the page number :P
23:08:29 <ehird`> good idea :p
23:09:21 <ehird`> i think i only need 2 bits for addresses
23:09:29 <ehird`> i mean, 4 addresses is enough to be comfortable with, right?
23:09:41 <ehird`> olsner: how would you personally define ST?
23:09:52 <ehird`> st reg,addr puts the value in reg in the memory addr?
23:10:23 <olsner> 4 addresses? that's just the same as having 4 registers though :P
23:11:24 <ehird`> err
23:11:26 <ehird`> i meant 4 registers
23:11:33 <ehird`> of course i shall use more for addresses :)
23:11:38 <ehird`> "i think i only need 2 bits for REGISTERS"
23:11:43 <ehird`> 4 registers + memory
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23:12:54 <ehird`> th
23:12:55 <ehird`> hmm
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23:13:01 <ehird`> i wonder how many bits i should use for addresses
23:13:41 <oklopol> 7
23:14:04 <oerjan> 77
23:14:05 <ehird`> only 128 places of addressable memory?
23:14:14 <ehird`> maybe just 8 bits.
23:14:35 <ehird`> now i have to decide what size to use for the values stored in memory and registers ;)
23:14:37 <ehird`> *:)
23:15:15 <oerjan> 14 bits
23:16:01 <oklopol> 12
23:16:48 <oklopol> people always ask for numbers, but then end up ignoring my nice numbers and having something boring like 16
23:16:54 <ehird`> heh
23:17:27 <ehird`> maybe just 8-bit values :)
23:17:33 <oerjan> well since he is refusing our good luck numbers, i suggest we compromise on 13.
23:17:52 <ehird`> maybe 8-bit values + 4 registers + 8-bit addresses isn't enough?
23:19:03 <ehird`> dunno
23:19:05 <oerjan> 8-bit values + 4 registers + 8-bit addresses should be enough for anyone.
23:19:20 <ehird`> no seriously :p
23:19:28 <ehird`> do you think it would be enough to implement simple things?
23:19:55 <oklokok> no one is ever really gonna need more than 640k memory
23:20:40 <ehird`> i can't take the sarcasm any longer :(
23:20:56 * oerjan gives ehird` a lollipop.
23:21:09 <ehird`> <___<
23:21:19 * oklokok does /me because it's so cool
23:21:58 <oklokok> ehird`: i actually haven't read the logs so i don't really know what you are making :P
23:22:09 <ehird`> oklokok: <ehird`> i'm aiming for
23:22:09 <ehird`> <ehird`> 1. relatively usable - if you're familiar with computer internals and asm, you should be able to program it with relative ease
23:22:09 <ehird`> <ehird`> 2. as tiny as possible
23:22:09 <oklokok> i'm guessing cookies
23:22:20 <ehird`> a computer architecture, obviously =p
23:22:49 <oklokok> ah, so making a simulated asm for fun?
23:22:56 <oklokok> or emulated
23:23:20 <oklokok> or copulated
23:24:20 <bsmntbombdood> or you could just use brainfuck
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23:24:31 <bsmntbombdood> you only need 3 bits per opcode
23:25:18 <ehird`> brainfuck breaks rule 1
23:25:19 <ehird`> 1. relatively usable - if you're familiar with computer internals and asm, you should be able to program it with relative ease
23:25:31 <bsmntbombdood> uh, brainfuck is usable
23:25:49 <oklokok> brainfuck can be coded with relative ease if you learn the basic trixxors
23:25:54 <ehird`> that is not the point
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23:26:47 <oklokok> brainfuck plus arithmetic operators, 4 bits per operator and it's pretty simple to program in
23:26:47 <ehird`> :)
23:26:51 <ehird`> sigh
23:26:58 <ehird`> i am not looking to reinvent a brainfuck computer
23:27:16 <ehird`> i am looking to invent a very small architechture spec that is quite easy to program in if you know asm
23:27:45 <oklokok> you making like "the asm".
23:28:13 <ehird`> o
23:28:14 <ehird`> no
23:28:20 <ehird`> what the hell does that mean anyway
23:28:23 <oklokok> teh asm
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23:29:54 <ihope> Well, you'll want it to be very parallel, I think.
23:30:10 <ihope> I think Game of Life is a decent platform.
23:30:25 <ehird`> i just want a simple low-powered computer that can still do 99 bottles of beer and some other stuff with at least mildly readable code
23:30:33 <ihope> Though maybe BBM with quantum extensions would be better.
23:30:55 <ihope> What, you want the assembly/machine code to be readable?
23:30:57 <oklokok> ihope: well done picking up where me and oerjan left
23:30:59 <oklokok> :P
23:31:10 <ehird`> lots of asm code is readable
23:31:16 <ehird`> if you know some asm for some platform, that is
23:32:43 <ihope> Do you know what GCC does to multiply by 10?
23:32:50 <ehird`> ok, the only logic stuff i need is NOT, OR, AND, XOR i think
23:32:54 <ehird`> ihope: x86 asm is not readable
23:33:00 <ihope> Oh.
23:33:03 <ehird`> gcc-generated asm is not readable anyway
23:33:22 <ihope> Why do you want the assembly code to be readable?
23:33:34 <oklokok> yeah, who likes readability
23:33:48 <ihope> Why not use a compiler from a high-level language instead?
23:33:57 <ehird`> you really don't get the point of this
23:34:04 <ihope> No, I don't.
23:34:05 <ehird`> i mean readable as in not bloody brainfuck or unlambda!
23:34:11 <ehird`> i don't want some beautiful asm code
23:34:13 <ehird`> or anything
23:34:20 <oklokok> :P
23:34:36 <oklokok> ehird`: not trying to make you mad, just tired.
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23:35:10 <ihope> What's wrong with BF and Unlambda, apart from the slowness?
23:35:22 <ehird`> they're hell to program in
23:35:24 <ehird`> absolute hell
23:35:40 <ihope> You want to program in the assembly language?
23:35:41 <bsmntbombdood> gtfo of my #esoteric
23:35:44 * ehird` has store, load, move, xor, and, or, not ... hmm .. what next
23:35:49 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: this is still esoteric :)
23:35:53 <ehird`> esoteric != hell to program in
23:36:00 <ehird`> ihope: At least 99bob, sure.
23:36:13 <ihope> I see.
23:38:24 <ihope> So you want readable and small.
23:39:36 <ihope> Typed lambda calculus with data declarations/constructors?
23:39:55 <ihope> I guess you also want it to look like an assembly language.
23:42:44 <ihope> Wait, what do you mean by "small"?
23:43:11 <ihope> Rather, what do you want that I stated as "small"? :-P
23:43:55 <ehird`> http://pastie.caboo.se/86457 here's my instruction set design
23:44:00 <ehird`> i think i might have screwed a part up
23:44:02 <ehird`> maybe it's not TC
23:44:49 <ihope> Doesn't look infinite memory-y.
23:45:16 <ehird`> hmm
23:45:20 <ehird`> i'll rectify it tomorrow
23:45:27 <ihope> Looks fine apart from that.
23:45:41 -!- ehird` has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | Rules: 1. Break at least one rule. 2: At least (10^10) bots must be on #esoteric | NOTE TO EHIRD DO NOT REMOVE: \instructionset.
23:45:47 <ehird`> i shall continue it tomorrow
23:45:51 <ihope> Can't you send yourself a memo?
23:46:06 <ihope> Won't clutter up our topic that way.
23:46:07 <bsmntbombdood> sure, put your shit in the topic...
23:46:11 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:49:16 <ihope> bsmntbombdood: how often is bsmnt_bot reset?
23:49:31 <bsmntbombdood> what do you mean?
23:49:44 <ihope> How often does it quit?
23:49:52 <bsmntbombdood> whenever i want it to
23:50:03 * ihope shrugs
23:50:56 <oerjan> ~exec self.raw("QUIT :Or we do")
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23:51:01 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined.
23:51:10 <ihope> Indeed.
23:52:49 -!- ihope has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | Rules: 1. Break at least one rule. 2: At least (10^10) bots must be on #esoteric | NOTE TO EHIRD DO NOT REMOVE: \instructionset.
23:52:53 <ihope> Er, oops.
23:53:15 <ihope> At least that didn't do anything as far as I can tell :-)
←2007-08-08 2007-08-09 2007-08-10→ ↑2007 ↑all