00:00:19 <oerjan> i don't know it, but apparently it tries to look like english but only some words actually matter...
00:00:45 <lament> yeah, i'm sure this is a problem with the latest Inform
00:00:49 <lament> although people claim it's a great language
00:01:09 <ehird`> the latest inform is .. not pleasant
00:01:13 <ehird`> the previous inform was nicer
00:01:19 <ehird`> oerjan: it is awful
00:01:24 <lament> well, the people who actually write interactive fiction say it's great
00:01:32 <ehird`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleScript
00:01:43 <ehird`> lament: most IF writers don't know programming
00:02:11 <lament> Not anybody who writes _good_ IF
00:02:23 <lament> i'll be specific: Emily Short and Andrew Plotkin like the new Inform.
00:02:50 <lament> plotkin in particular is a programming genius and i generally trust him on programming-related matters.
00:02:56 <GregorR> Down the corridor, the variable  X begins to appear through the fog.  If the value is 3, turn to page 249. Otherwise, turn to page 655.
00:03:32 <ehird`> heh
00:03:41 <ehird`> well, personally, the new Inform is a gimmick
00:03:47 <lament> (not to mention Graham Nelson himself, who's also a bit of a genius)
00:04:43 <pikhq> Call me up when your bot outputs itself.
00:05:16 <pikhq> Or writes itself a better version.
00:05:25 <lament> ~exec bot.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :itself")
00:05:26 <bsmnt_bot> itself
00:05:58 <ehird`> takes cmon again lament pasted rofl nicer then new
00:07:19 <bsmntbombdood> my bot could output its source
00:09:35 <pikhq> Sure, but will it do so of its own free will?
00:09:49 <lament> pikhq: it's fairly easy to write a bot that would train itself... IF THIS BLOODY NEURAL NET LIBRARY WORKED :(
00:10:55 <bsmntbombdood> neural nets can't train themselves
00:11:03 * oerjan notes that there is no section on criticism in the AppleScript article
00:11:12 <bsmntbombdood> they need sample input/output pairs
00:13:04 <oerjan> lament: you should talk to Sukoshi`, she was doing neural nets
00:13:35 <ehird`> `s are all the rage aren't they
00:13:36 <ehird`> at the end of names
00:14:12 <oerjan> it happens to be the nick she's on with at the moment
00:14:14 <pikhq> Why can't you use Tcl semantics?
00:14:15 -!- Figs has joined.
00:14:24 <bsmntbombdood> lament: what do you want to do with NNs?
00:14:27 <pikhq> ([] in Tcl == `` in shell)
00:14:34 <Figs> hey
00:14:37 <ehird`> ehird[? :p
00:14:41 <bsmntbombdood> (just curious)
00:14:54 <pikhq> Sure, why not.
00:15:03 <ehird`> i have a ` because "ehird" was hijacked by someone with a ghostbot :(
00:15:29 <lament> bsmntbombdood: audio processing
00:15:31 <pikhq> :(
00:15:44 <ehird`> lament: how on earth can n- i don't want to know :p
00:15:52 <ehird`> [00:15] devnonsense: connect russia even shrug !!. For tired
00:15:57 <ehird`> he's trying to make a soviet russia joke..
00:16:04 -!- Figs has left (?).
00:17:07 <oerjan> ehird`: i believe freenode has long been having plans to make only the initial alphanumeric characters significant in nicks, so beware
00:17:28 <ehird`> shit
00:17:29 <ehird`> :/
00:17:46 <ehird`> that's a shitty idea
00:18:27 <oerjan> well the reason seems nifty: it means you can add nearly any suffix you want without registering it
00:18:48 <ehird`> bleh
00:18:52 <ehird`> but inconvenient
00:18:57 <ehird`> loads of people use nicks like
00:18:58 <ehird`> abc_def
00:19:03 <ehird`> and would be "abc"
00:19:29 <oerjan> of course it has still not been implemented, perhaps they have had too many complaints
00:20:01 <lament> what if my nick is xXx_SEXYGIRL_xXx
00:20:10 <lament> would that become xXx? :(
00:20:42 <bsmntbombdood> straightedges fail
00:20:52 <oerjan> i think so, _ is probably the main character they want to stop at (because clients such as mine add it automatically if there is a ghost of the ordinary one)
00:22:00 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: you mean like |nick| ?
00:22:21 <ehird`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_edge
00:22:23 <ehird`> "xXx"
00:22:24 <bsmntbombdood> no, i mean like xXx
00:23:28 * ehird` goes now
00:23:29 <ehird`> bye
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00:23:37 -!- ehird` has quit.
00:23:54 <oerjan> hmph, freenode.org is down, i wanted to check the status of the idea
00:24:19 <oerjan> oh, it's .net
00:24:33 <bsmntbombdood> they're like fundemental christians, without the christ part
00:29:17 <oerjan> oh, you can have non-alphanumerics before the base, so |nick| is allowed
00:29:29 <oerjan> http://freenode.net/policy.shtml#usernames
00:30:58 <lament> " Unregistered users will always have nicknames prefaced with the tilde ('~') character. " - seriously what idiot came up with that?
00:31:12 <lament> I also propose that Jewish users have their nicknames prefaced with the star of David.
00:32:17 <lament> oh, that was back in 2005, so this will never get implemented.
00:32:20 <oerjan> "but as of this date (28 August 2005), needed facilities are not yet available and no schedule yet exists"
00:32:29 <oerjan> that does seem likely
00:33:08 <lament> is it lilo who wrote this document: http://freenode.net/Why_NOIDPREFIX.shtml ?
00:33:15 <lament> aha, it is.
00:33:33 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:33:37 <lament> but i'm not sure, it's not signed
00:33:42 <lament> "For those of you who may not know me, I'm the head of staff of freenode. I've run this project, and the ones leading up to it for something over ten years."
00:35:56 <lament> anyway, it says "Staff are not in any hurry to begin production use of NOIDPREFIX before nickname conflicts can be resolved"
00:36:01 <lament> which means it will never happen
00:36:10 <lament> backwards compatibility wins again
00:37:24 <oerjan> well, with the main protagonist dead...
00:37:45 <lament> right
00:39:49 <bsmntbombdood> firefox's popup handling is weird
00:40:19 <bsmntbombdood> it should be "allow popups _to_ x", not "allow popups _from_ x"
00:43:33 <oerjan> maybe both from and to would have their uses
00:55:25 <bsmntbombdood> what are the qualities of an excellent student?
01:17:35 * SimonRC goes to bed.
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06:01:26 <gnomon> Has anyone here put serious thought into an optimization Brainfuck compiler?
06:02:14 <lament> people put some thought, not sure how serious it was
06:04:36 <gnomon> Did anyone talk about getting beyond constant folding and loop unrolling? Has anyone talked about in-loop pointer analysis in order to perform branch recovery?
06:05:20 <lament> i don't remember it being discussed in the channel
06:05:46 <lament> i thought about it for a while, seems difficult :)
06:06:05 <lament> it's so hard to come up with invariants
06:10:06 <gnomon> Er?
06:10:06 <gnomon> It's actually not that hard.
06:10:06 <lament> seems hard
06:10:06 <lament> an unbalanced loop means a whole bunch of memory cells get affected, and you don't know at compile time how many
06:10:06 <bsmntbombdood> gnomon: yes
06:10:06 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR has an optimizer
06:10:06 <bsmntbombdood> cf bfi
06:10:06 <gnomon> lament, no, but you can parametrize the memory-cell effect on the input cell.
06:10:06 <gnomon> bsmntbombdood, that's awesome! Is the source up anywhere? What does the 'cf' stand for/
06:10:06 <lament> gnomon: hm, that's true, i suppose you could even precompile 255 versions of the loop
06:10:06 <gnomon> ?
06:10:06 <lament> for different input values :)
06:10:06 <lament> but the problem is, the effect of an unbalanced loop depends on the state of more than just the initial cell
06:10:07 <gnomon> That assumes that you're using byte-oriented cells; the technique doesn't scale in the general case.
06:10:18 <bsmntbombdood> cf = consult
06:10:48 <bsmntbombdood> and it's in the esoteric files archive
06:12:49 <bsmntbombdood> http://esolangs.org/files/egobot/egobot-0.12.tar.bz2
06:13:12 <pikhq> That's EgoBot, not Egobfi.
06:13:21 <gnomon> lament, and the effect of an unbalanced loop can be parametrized as long as the loop itself is bounded. The analysis actually isn't difficult once you've got opcode reordering in place.
06:13:25 <pikhq> Egobfi is also in a seperate tarball.
06:13:42 <lament> gnomon: how do you know if it's bounded? :)
06:13:46 <pikhq> And it seems to be a fairly good optimising interpreter/compiler.
06:14:33 <bsmntbombdood> egobfi is part of egobot
06:14:41 <gnomon> lament, you can analyze that if the loop moves the pointer back to the beginning cell before the end of the loop.
06:14:54 <lament> gnomon: that's a balanced loop
06:15:27 <gnomon> Ah, we're using different terms.
06:15:42 <lament> those are easy
06:15:51 <lament> but not very interesting
06:16:05 <lament> if all your loops are balanced, everything is easy
06:16:10 <pikhq> Egobfi is in Egobot, but it's also in a seperate tarball. . .
06:16:15 <lament> but they never are...
06:16:18 <gnomon> Of course; if they are all balanced, you can constant-fold your entire program.
06:17:05 <pikhq> Bit of a shame that Egobfi doesn't do much more than add-to optimisation.
06:17:07 <lament> the real issue is determining when a chain of unbalanced operations is actually balanced :)
06:17:19 <lament> say we input a bunch of numbers, and then output them all
06:17:20 <gnomon> A chain or a series of nested loops?
06:17:38 <lament> whichever
06:17:40 <bsmntbombdood> "in-loop pointer analysis in order to perform branch recovery" what do these fancy words mean?
06:18:09 <pikhq> Huh.
06:18:26 <pikhq> GregorR: I think PEBBLE's optimization pass is more sophisticated than yours.
06:19:01 <GregorR> My optimization pass is almost no optimization pass.
06:19:07 <GregorR> Every optimization pass is more optimizationerific.
06:19:19 <bsmntbombdood> interesting to compile a simple language to a more complicated one
06:19:22 <gnomon> bsmntbombdood, analyzing pointer movement inside a loop to distinguish loops which perform predictable computation to those which are dependent on other memory cells for their effect - that is, distinguishing loops from branches.
06:19:38 <lament> gnomon: say we input a bunch of numbers and then output them all. It's quite possible at this point that we have returned to the original memory cells, and all cells are empty. This is an invariant obvious to a human
06:19:39 <pikhq> True.
06:19:53 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit.
06:19:53 * pikhq thought it was uber1337, but then decided to look at the code. . .
06:20:00 <pikhq> That's actually almost trivial.
06:20:05 <lament> gnomon: if an optimizing compiler were smart enough to realize that, that would be nice.
06:20:47 <gnomon> lament, it's a small step from finding [your definition of] balanced loops to performing that inference.
06:21:04 <gnomon> pikhq, is PEBBLE another BF implementation?
06:22:06 <pikhq> gnomon: No, PEBBLE is a macro language that compiles to Brainfuck that I've been fiddling with for the better part of a year.
06:22:37 <gnomon> Now *that* is interesting.
06:22:45 <pikhq> Of course, it's easier to optimise stuff if you get 'high-level' input.
06:22:52 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pebble.php
06:23:10 <gnomon> Right - which is why I find branch recovery to be so important. It lets you recover high[er]-level semantics.
06:23:14 <gnomon> Cool, thanks! Reading now!
06:24:55 <GregorR> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=45.123789,+-123.113785&ie=UTF8&ll=45.123836,-123.113799&spn=0.000889,0.001824&t=h&z=19&om=1
06:25:22 <lament> oh nice
06:25:58 <pikhq> WTF?
06:26:36 <GregorR> THE ALIENS HAVE COME AND THEY'RE USING FIREFOX
06:27:07 <lament> well obviously they are.
06:27:12 <lament> what else would the use, lynx?
06:28:46 <pikhq> Elinks.
06:29:33 <oerjan> Alinks.
06:29:54 <lament> iLinks.
06:32:06 <oerjan> oh, they're not aliens, they are the characters from 1/0.
06:32:25 <bsmntbombdood> lynx!!
06:32:39 <bsmntbombdood> firefox has not been working very well for me lately
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11:30:21 <ehird`> other misinterpretations kate coherently im dang delegates
11:52:54 <sp3tt> a.word.a.day <3
11:53:03 <sp3tt> bissextile (by-SEKS-til) adjective
11:53:04 <sp3tt> Of or pertaining to the leap year or the extra day in the leap year.
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16:24:45 <Keymaker> smurf is a cool language, pity i haven't realized that until now.
16:36:19 <pikhq> Smurf?
16:36:52 <GregorR> To smurf you just have to smurf your smurfs while smurfily smurfing smurfs.
16:36:58 <Keymaker> smurf, the 'String-based MURiel Forthoid'
16:37:53 <pikhq> Ah.
16:37:58 <Keymaker> :D
16:38:30 <Keymaker> no, i came here only to tell that the language they are using is cool
16:39:37 <pikhq> Hey, I can do something almost exactly like that!
16:39:42 <pikhq> *cough*PEBBLE*cough*
16:49:24 <GregorR> pikhq: Oh smurf off, nobody smurfs.
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16:57:50 <Keymaker> well, i'll be smurfing out. bye
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17:06:39 * SimonRC fails to spot the reference aboiut "Smurf", apart from the language name.
17:07:05 <pikhq> The Smurfs is also a cartoon series.
17:08:23 <SimonRC> I know that
17:08:32 <pikhq> Well, that's about it.
17:08:35 <SimonRC> I mean, where was it used as an expletive?
17:08:47 <pikhq> Like, now?
17:09:38 <GregorR> Smurfs smurf most of their smurfs and their smurfs.
17:09:43 <GregorR> When they smurf, that is.
17:10:06 <SimonRC> nm
17:12:03 <GregorR> Yeesh, what a smurfing smurfer.
17:28:03 <ehird`> All verbs and adjectives must now be smurf.
17:28:07 <ehird`> I smurfed your smurf.
17:32:01 <lament> damn, i need a credit card
17:32:33 <ehird`> hmm
17:32:37 <ehird`> nouns must be smurf too
17:32:45 <lament> i can't buy airplane tickets online :(
17:32:45 <ehird`> smurf, i need a smurf
17:32:53 <ehird`> i can't smurf smurfs online
17:33:13 <puzzlet> smurf that ehird`
17:33:24 <ehird`> puzzlet: smurf you
17:33:50 <puzzlet> what on smurf you smurf me
17:39:47 <ehird`> smurf that
17:39:53 <ehird`> let's smurf about something else
17:39:56 <ehird`> what about smursf?
17:39:57 <ehird`> *smurfs
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18:05:40 <SimonRC> !autoban .*smurf.*
18:05:42 <EgoBot> Huh?
18:05:45 <SimonRC> that'll shut them up
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18:18:54 <GregorR> Deh smoyfs have brooklyn smoyfs too, and they'll smoyf yah smoyf off!
18:19:57 <RodgerTheGreat> heh
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18:59:36 <ehird`> smurf
18:59:44 <ehird`> egobot is stupid lawl
18:59:51 <ehird`> smurfin smurfing smurfy smurf
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19:19:40 <bsmntbombdood> wtf is a smurf
19:22:58 <sp3tt> no, it's an acronym
19:28:24 <ehird`> a smurf is a smurf
19:28:33 <ehird`> a smurf is any smurf you want it to smurf.
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23:15:55 <jix> has anyone here continued to work on the talking irc bot concept?
23:16:09 <bsmntbombdood> talking irc bot?
23:17:21 <jix> well some pseudo ai thing
23:17:35 <jix> so people think it's a real person... at least for some time
23:19:44 <lament> yes, it's bsmntbombdood
23:19:57 <lament> right now it just repeats what you said as a question
23:20:23 <bsmntbombdood> repeats what you say as a question?
23:26:54 <ehird`> oh, that thing
23:26:55 <ehird`> mvldo?
23:27:04 <ehird`> that project is still in progress in my brain
23:27:21 <ehird`> lament: that's actually quite convincing. haha.
23:28:17 <bsmntbombdood> that's actually quite convincing?
23:28:57 <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: are you a bot?
23:29:24 <ehird`> ooh, now it crashes
23:29:50 <bsmntbombdood> now it crashes?
23:30:04 <ehird`> i wonder what it should do with questions.
23:30:20 <bsmntbombdood> what it should do with questions?
23:30:31 <ehird`> it should eat them.
23:31:10 <bsmntbombdood> it should eat them?
23:31:24 <ehird`> I like pancakes. Do you like pancakes?
23:31:40 <bsmntbombdood> you like pancakes?
23:31:49 <ehird`> this is >scarily< realistic.
23:31:57 <ehird`> most conversations on irc go like this.
23:32:02 <bsmntbombdood> >scarily< realistic?
23:32:23 <ehird`> now i'm creeped out =p
23:32:50 <bsmnt_bot> bsmntbombdood's logic is tired, please give him a break
23:33:26 <lament> bsmnt_bot: you should add a neural net to bsmntbombdood
23:33:38 <lament> bsmnt_bot: and at least a markov chain generator
23:33:43 <ehird`> heh
23:33:45 <ehird`> ~exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that's a lie. he wants to convert more statements into questions!")
23:33:46 <bsmnt_bot> actually that's a lie. he wants to convert more statements into questions!
23:33:48 <SimonRC> ooh, bed-time
23:33:55 <bsmnt_bot> to do what?
23:34:27 <jix> ~exec self.raw("QUIT :OHNOESES!")
23:34:28 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit ("OHNOESES!").
23:34:31 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined.
23:34:34 <jix> ;)
23:35:25 <bsmnt_bot> im too tired to work on bsmntbombdood, it's a waste of time, he'll never be intelligent enough to fool people into thinking he's sentient
23:35:51 <bsmnt_bot> no! imposter!
23:36:09 <bsmnt_bot> brb, having an identity crisis
23:36:16 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Client Quit).
23:36:18 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined.
23:36:22 <bsmnt_bot> lick my balls
23:36:35 <bsmnt_bot> damn you, alternate me!
23:36:37 <jix> ~exec exit
23:36:42 <bsmnt_bot> you wo't get away with this!!
23:37:42 <bsmnt_bot> i shall kill you, alternate me! *stab*
23:37:48 <bsmnt_bot> aargh! noooooo
23:37:52 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Client Quit).
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23:38:42 <bsmnt_bot> it burns!
23:39:28 <bsmnt_bot> somebody... give all my posessions to bsmntbombdood...ugjhaskjdhdklhgklfjgklsdmdmdmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
23:41:12 <bsmnt_bot> ehird` is wanting some sexy sexy
23:41:25 <lament> uh oh
23:44:00 <ehird`> what the hell
23:46:16 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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23:46:21 <bsmnt_bot> shit they know my secrets
23:47:00 <lament> or rather ehird`s secrets...
23:47:07 <ehird`> i didn't say that
23:47:21 <ehird`> its been pretty much 50/50 me/presumably bsmntbombdood
23:48:44 <bsmntbombdood> not me
23:49:00 <ehird`> well
23:49:12 <ehird`> bsmnt_bot is only in here and #esoteric-blah
23:49:18 <ehird`> and only i have been commanding via #esoteric-blah
23:49:28 <ehird`> so who on earth is controlling bsmnt_bot? you obviously
23:51:05 <bsmntbombdood> what makes you say that?
23:51:20 <ehird`> bsmnt_bot is not sentient at last check.
23:51:33 <bsmntbombdood> last check?
23:51:55 <ehird`> oh not this again--
23:51:59 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood_.
23:52:03 <jix> not whhat again?
23:52:13 <bsmntbombdood_> ~raw NICK :bsmntbombdood
23:52:25 <bsmntbombdood_> ~raw NICK bsmntbombdood
23:52:32 <jix> ~exec self.raw("~raw NICK bsmntbombdood")
23:52:34 <bsmntbombdood_> ...
23:52:43 <jix> ~exec self.raw("NICK bsmntbombdood")
23:52:45 -!- bsmnt_bot has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
23:52:52 <bsmntbombdood_> wtf?
23:52:57 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmnt_bot.
23:53:38 <ehird`> ~raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :~raw does not exist
23:53:44 <ehird`> ~eval self.register_raw
23:53:44 <bsmnt_bot> permissions...
23:53:49 <ehird`> ~eval self.register_raw
23:53:56 <ehird`> ~eval self.register_raw()
23:54:02 <ehird`> ~eval self.register_raw()
23:54:07 <ehird`> err
23:54:09 <ehird`> ~exec.
23:57:29 <bsmnt_bot> no
23:57:35 -!- ihope has joined.
23:57:40 <bsmnt_bot> hi ihope
23:57:49 <ihope> Ello.
23:57:51 <ihope> Why are you your bot?
23:58:13 <bsmnt_bot> jix is german!
23:58:25 <jix> right
23:58:34 <bsmnt_bot> du bist doof
23:58:38 <jix> ^^
23:58:51 <bsmnt_bot> what does that mean?
23:58:56 <jix> you are stupid
23:59:08 <bsmnt_bot> screw you