←2007-11-28 2007-11-29 2007-11-30→ ↑2007 ↑all
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03:13:30 <faxathisia> hey oerjan :D
03:14:12 <faxathisia> my idea worked by
03:14:14 <faxathisia> the way, http://rafb.net/p/j1qfFS49.txt
03:14:32 <faxathisia> I can reverse life using minesweeper.. but I think I shall rewrite it so it runs faster
03:15:07 <faxathisia> (the rube goldberg method)
03:15:15 <pikhq> It be oerjan.
03:15:24 <oerjan> oh it surely should work in principle, the point about NP-complete problems is that you _can_ reduce them to each other :)
03:15:50 <pikhq> You can. . . Reverse the Game of Life?
03:15:54 <faxathisia> I didn't know that running game of life backwards is NP complete :p
03:15:58 <oerjan> although 1 step of life probably isn't NP-complete
03:16:12 * pikhq hands you a Garden of Eden position.
03:16:16 <pikhq> Reverse it. I dare you.
03:16:18 <faxathisia> pikhq: I get a list of zero
03:16:20 <faxathisia> :p
03:16:24 <faxathisia> although I haven't tried any of those
03:16:35 <oerjan> we are talking about reversing to a set, of course
03:16:43 <oerjan> (possibly non-empty)
03:17:31 <faxathisia> hmmm
03:17:37 <faxathisia> I think I should try actually reversing it directly
03:17:42 <faxathisia> instead of this stupid roundabout method :p
03:18:02 <faxathisia> (though I'm not sure how to do that)
03:18:37 <oerjan> constraint solving is the keyword to look for i think
03:18:52 <faxathisia> I'm reading about ECLiPSe now
03:19:03 <faxathisia> seems amazing
03:19:50 <oerjan> i would not be surprised if running n steps backwards of GOL is NP-complete though
03:20:18 <oerjan> in fact, it almost surely is
03:20:27 <faxathisia> what about 1 step?
03:20:34 <faxathisia> I mean why do you say, n steps specifically?
03:20:55 <oerjan> i mean that you may need to have n on the order of the board size
03:21:18 <oerjan> because 1 step may not intertwine far-away parts
03:21:43 <oerjan> otoh it _might_, if there is a graph problem like 3-coloring encodable in just one step
03:22:06 <oerjan> ok, 1 step may or may not be NP-complete
03:22:18 <faxathisia> :D
03:22:31 <faxathisia> here's something I want to find out
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03:47:40 <immibis> the esolangs.org wiki keeps giving me this error: http://pastebin.ca/801283
03:51:05 <oerjan> i'm getting it fine
03:51:51 <oerjan> mind you it has had errors in the past
03:52:46 <immibis> it gives me that error quite often and it always works when i refresh it.
03:54:40 <faxathisia> yeah I see that error a lot
03:54:45 <faxathisia> sometimes goes away when you reload
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04:34:48 <lament> oh man, you just reminded me about this channel
04:34:52 <oerjan> ayeeh
04:35:05 <pikhq> It's Lament's Laments!
04:35:22 <bsmntbombdood> hrr hrr
04:47:53 <graue> har de har har
04:48:10 <graue> if stephen hawking were here he would be laughing his ass off at that play on words
05:01:26 <oerjan> i would say that's a grey view of it
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05:25:48 * immibis found two ways to open the root of the C: drive and two ways to get to a command prompt (both of which are disabled) in his school network.
05:26:09 <immibis> i mean, disabled = not supposed to be able to do it
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05:31:06 <pikhq> Cute.
05:31:15 <pikhq> (I've done the same. Not too difficult)
05:38:08 <immibis> shortcuts and batch files have something to do with it. i won't tell you the rest in case you know people who go to that school.
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07:40:43 * immibis waits patiently
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14:12:32 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p354454544.txt making a language for programming labyrinth explorers, i guess
14:13:19 <oklopol> made pattern matching first-class, as demonstrated in that code (creation of an Idle pattern inside Enter)
14:14:27 <oklopol> once again i've polluted the language with so much syntax and "intelligence", i'll prolly not manage to implement it.
14:14:39 <oklopol> but it's nice to code in
14:16:09 <oklopol> the program running the labyrinth explorers should send an Idle message at least a few times a second, enter should be sent after a move, and so on
14:17:04 <oklopol> if a (Move Direction)-pattern is returned, the guy should be moved to given direction
14:21:12 <clayrat> hmm
14:21:46 <clayrat> so its like the guy moves according to language restrictions and the programmer supplies the maze?
14:24:12 <oklopol> well, the language has nothing to do with labyrinths, it's just made for creating AI's for exploring labyrinths
14:24:58 <oklopol> if Move [1 0] is returned, the guy will move east, but that is just convention
14:25:25 <oklopol> the labyrinth is external to the labyrinth, and will be supplied in a different program
14:27:16 <oklopol> basically, a guy will get messages like [Enter [room coords]] and [Idle 5.09], and may return a message like [Move [0 -1]] or [Commit Suicide]
14:27:49 <oerjan> [EatenBy Grue]
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14:29:40 <oklopol> a guy would prolly not be told he's been eaten, since being eaten is lethal, though
14:29:54 <oklopol> that though was a bit out of place
14:30:23 <oklopol> (a guy would prolly not be told he's been eaten, since being eaten is lethal), though
14:30:43 <oklopol> hmm... that doesn't work either...
14:30:53 <oerjan> [Enter BrightTunnelOfLight]
14:31:48 <oklopol> so... first-class pattern matching, is that a new idea?
14:32:28 <oklopol> i've been trying to come up with something new for ages, i just always later find out it's already been come up with
14:32:42 <oklopol> i guess that happens to everyone
14:33:10 <oerjan> probably not new
14:33:56 <oklopol> well, there's only a thin line between that and just having... well, variables
14:34:15 <oklopol> that's a bit like a generalization of 'em
14:34:21 <oerjan> first-class patterns is one of the things some people would like in haskell but which they never agree on the precise syntax and semantics for
14:34:30 <oklopol> oh
14:34:46 <oklopol> i don't just have them first-class, i also have them mutable, btw :)
14:34:51 <oerjan> also, views
14:34:56 <oklopol> as you can *clearly* see in the code
14:35:03 <oerjan> well haskell usually does not do that :)
14:35:07 <oklopol> views?
14:35:12 <oklopol> yes, that's why i meantioned it
14:35:18 <oklopol> meanaem
14:35:35 <oklopol> (palindrome not intended.)
14:35:41 <oerjan> views are like definable pattern matching
14:36:06 <oklopol> hmm, interesting, wanna enlighten me about them?
14:36:07 <oerjan> since ordinary haskell only has the patterns that come with each data type definition
14:36:27 <oklopol> yeah
14:36:38 <oklopol> err umm
14:36:44 <oklopol> and... function definition?
14:37:01 <oerjan> but sometimes you would like to define some pattern matching that is not just the internal data representation
14:37:37 <oerjan> function definitions don't define new pattern types, they only use those already defined
14:38:29 <oerjan> for example the Data.Sequence module defines |> and <| patterns iirc to match only the left or right end of a sequence
14:39:20 <oerjan> but because haskell does not have views you need to apply a function to a Seq to make it into the data type that has the pattern
14:39:41 <oklopol> ah, i now realize what is confusing me is i do not know how to make new patterns in haskell.
14:39:45 <oklopol> :P
14:40:21 <oerjan> in haskell each data type defines new constructors that automatically give both a constructing function and a deconstructing pattern
14:40:28 <oklopol> oh
14:40:33 <oklopol> like x:xs is
14:40:40 <oerjan> yep
14:41:12 <oklopol> that's so awesome i wanna cry
14:41:16 <oklopol> well
14:41:21 <oklopol> not that awesome, but quite.
14:42:18 <oklopol> hmmmm
14:42:38 <oerjan> however if the data structure is abstract and you don't want to expose its _real_ constructors (like with Sequence which is internally a kind of tree), then haskell gives you no way of defining a different set of patterns directly on that data type
14:43:04 <oklopol> i see
14:43:07 <oerjan> so you instead must do something like
14:43:34 <oerjan> case viewl seq of x :< rest -> ...
14:43:45 <oklopol> sad :<
14:44:31 <oklopol> what's viewl?
14:44:43 <oerjan> viewl :: Seq a -> ViewL a
14:45:15 <oerjan> it take a sequence and turns into the ViewL data type for which :< is a constructor
14:45:19 <oerjan> *takes
14:46:02 <oerjan> so it's a hack around the fact you cannot define the :< pattern directly on Seq a
14:47:06 <oerjan> there is also viewr and :> for the other end
14:47:18 <oklopol> nice :>
14:47:49 <oklopol> happy code
14:48:49 <oklopol> i'd like to start implementing, but i need to leave in an hour anyway
14:48:53 * oklopol is not happy
14:51:36 <oerjan> bad event upcoming?
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15:14:15 <oklopol> it's relatively nice for an event, it's just i generally dislike events.
15:14:28 <oklopol> band practise
15:15:00 <oerjan> um, why are you in a band if you don't like it :D
15:15:48 <oklopol> i like being in a band, and i like practising, i just don't like going to the practise
15:15:54 <oklopol> the same thing with school
15:16:02 <oklopol> except that some classes are very boring
15:17:39 <oklopol> same thing with anything really, i hate going out, would prefer just sitting here
15:18:55 <oklopol> wonder if i could retire when i turn 19...
15:20:30 * oerjan wants to protest but is too lazy himself...
15:21:06 <oklopol> hmm, what exactly do you wanna protest?
15:22:25 <oerjan> your apparent desire to physically isolate yourself
15:24:01 <oklopol> well, actually, i have nothing against going places, what i dislike is having to go somewhere
15:24:10 <oklopol> that better=
15:24:11 <oklopol> ?
15:24:52 <oerjan> i suppose so :)
15:24:57 <oklopol> usually, if someone spontaneously asks me to take a 10 hours walk with them, i say yes
15:25:27 <oklopol> this is not as rare as you might think, given my circle of friends
15:26:22 <oklopol> wonder if "circle of friends" is correct
15:26:31 <oerjan> i think so
15:27:15 <oklopol> sounds right to me, but i always get a bit paranoid when i realize a saying is the exact same in Finnish
15:27:30 <oklopol> had to uppercase it because i seem to have a typing checker in this client
15:30:05 <oklopol> also, i think finland has the greatest people-here/overall-population -rate
15:30:33 <oerjan> ?
15:31:00 <oklopol> fiz, me and jontte, who i now realize isn't here anymore
15:31:11 <oerjan> oh on the channel
15:31:36 <oklopol> yep
15:32:14 <oerjan> some wicked little voice in my head said "yeah, they all sit in their forest huts drinking and no one ever travels"
15:32:17 <oklopol> a friend of mine has been meaning to start regularing here, but he's too lazy to put the chan on autojoin
15:32:21 <oklopol> that would make 4 :\
15:33:04 <oerjan> (interpreting here=in-finland)
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15:34:22 <oklopol> well, finland definately has the greatest people-in-finland/overall-population-in-finland rate
15:34:33 <oklopol> definitely
15:34:54 <oerjan> ah yes indeed
15:35:11 <oklopol> then again, so does any other country.
15:36:37 <oerjan> i am not so sure, there are some countries that have more immigrants than natives
15:37:11 <oerjan> Qatar i think
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15:37:40 <oklopol> yes, unfortunately those countries still have the same people-in-finland/overall-population-in-finland rate
15:37:48 <oklopol> (haw haw)
15:38:15 <oerjan> hey wait a minute
15:38:30 <oerjan> constant functions are no fun
15:39:17 <oklopol> sure they are
15:39:20 <oerjan> i interpreted people-in-finland as people from that country in finland
15:39:22 <oklopol> didn't your see my haws?
15:40:55 <oklopol> well, out of finland's population, over 50% is finns, so finland's rate would still be the greatest.
15:41:31 <oklopol> english's lambda support is pretty bad :\
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21:53:38 <bsmntbombdood> geh
21:53:41 <bsmntbombdood> my wine is smelling
21:56:42 <sekhmet> ... or does it have an ODOR?
21:58:06 <bsmntbombdood> yes
21:58:19 <sekhmet> :)
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22:23:29 <bsmntbombdood> :(
22:27:26 <oklopol> the world is a sad place
22:27:48 <oklopol> one problem with band practise is the other guys don't really have a life outside the band
22:27:50 <bsmntbombdood> very
22:27:59 <oklopol> life as in need to code and irc
22:31:20 <oklopol> (regarding the fact i was gone for well over 6 hours)
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22:57:23 <BoredCollegeGuy> Please find the greatest contiguous sum of the following sequence: -1, 2, -3, 2, 0, 5, -11
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22:58:08 <ihope_> 7, I'd say.
22:58:43 <ihope_> 2 and 2, 0, 5 are the only "islands" of positive. You can include one or the other, or you can include both. Including just 2, 0 and 5 gives you a higher sum than including both.
23:01:55 <faxathisia> yeah it's 7
23:10:00 <graue> is that general problem NP-complete?
23:10:24 <graue> no wait, i guess there's no way it could be
23:10:25 <faxathisia> I think so yes..
23:10:30 <graue> really? why?
23:10:33 <faxathisia> well it's NP complete for rectangles
23:10:35 <faxathisia> I think I read that..
23:10:52 <graue> rectangles?
23:11:06 <faxathisia> if you have a matrix of numbers what's the submatrix with biggest tota
23:11:12 <faxathisia> l
23:12:16 <graue> if you brute-force the one-dimensional version, isn't it O(n^2)?
23:12:32 <BoredCollegeGuy> greatest contiguous sum can be solved in O(n)
23:12:59 <graue> no wonder you're a bored college guy, you need a more interesting problem
23:13:16 <BoredCollegeGuy> do I?
23:14:08 <faxathisia> http://acm.uva.es/problemset/v1/108.html
23:14:57 <faxathisia> is maximal sub-rectangle NP complete? :(
23:16:08 <BoredCollegeGuy> dunno. I just had my 4th day of theory of comp this morning.
23:16:10 <graue> well, to brute force it, you'd have to try rectangles starting at each of n*m origins
23:17:07 <faxathisia> ok it's certainly NP hard
23:17:13 <faxathisia> I guess it's not NP complete
23:17:27 <faxathisia> and I'm wrong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subset_sum_problem
23:18:24 <graue> wait. but then, from each origin at column a, row b, you have to try rectangles with each of (n-a+1) widths and (m-b+1) heights, so (n-a+1)*(m-b+1) rectangles
23:18:34 <graue> so it's O(n^2m^2), no?
23:18:37 <graue> at worst?
23:26:26 <ihope_> Yeah, seems so.
23:28:28 <ihope_> A problem that's in P is in NP if and only if P = NP.
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←2007-11-28 2007-11-29 2007-11-30→ ↑2007 ↑all