00:12:05 maybe i'll ski to school tommorow 00:14:13 :< 00:14:16 we have rain here... 00:15:18 * pikhq reboots for kernel 00:16:32 in Trondheim we have a snow, rain, ice, hip bone fracture cycle :/ 00:17:00 which currently is firmly in the ice stage 00:18:40 hip bone? 00:18:43 -!- pikhq has quit (Connection reset by peer). 00:19:05 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:20:22 hmm, the dialect of lisp in my head is pretty esoteric 00:20:25 hip or leg, i guess 00:20:49 e.g. for one thing (although this isn't THAT esoteric), you can marshal continuations to a bytestring 00:22:51 fun fact: if you put gravel on ice to make it safe to walk, and it then snows/rains a bit, the gravel gets embedded in the ice so it only _looks_ safe. 00:23:59 awesome 00:24:26 i don't fall on ice, ice falls under me 00:24:55 i guess that makes me chuck norris or something 00:25:18 depends. do you cry? 00:25:19 ice rises up to smack you 00:27:31 hmm, i don't think my formatting lang is crazy enough 00:27:42 it's more like printf than cl's format :-) 00:27:56 is it TC yet? 00:29:53 no :-( 00:30:11 it does have a loop construct, though! 00:30:46 not sure about the syntax, but i'm thinking ^l{element,generator,...} 00:31:24 ^l{x,(cdr some-list),^?{(car x)} 00:31:27 that's crazy 00:31:34 that's lisp for ya 00:31:46 that could barely be called lisp :-) 00:32:00 methinks i should replace the formatting lang with some way of embedding lisp 00:32:34 like, ~"Hello, #\thing!" 00:32:42 ~"Hello, #\(car thing)!" 00:33:07 ~"Hello, \#\! I typed that in as: \\\#\." 00:33:18 oklopol: oerjan: that seems a bit too sane, doesn't it? :-) 00:34:03 hmm 00:34:34 quite nice 00:34:41 so REMOVE IT 00:34:48 you could do ~expr too to apply it on a string 00:35:08 i'm so tired i think i'll write a song about it 00:35:15 templating language = (in ~templ) :P 00:37:18 actually, maybe the root of my problem is: this kind of fucking sucks 00:37:30 instead: concat operator ~ 00:37:39 (~ "Hello, " thing "!") 00:37:46 (~ "Hello, " (car thing) "!") 00:37:58 (~ "Hello, #\! I typed that in as, er.... #\.") 00:40:08 Which will basically be (defproc (~ . args) (apply append (map ->string args))) 00:42:35 oklopol: it's not very esoteric now is it 00:43:33 indeed not 00:43:51 (apply append (...))? 00:43:56 why not append 00:44:16 actually not sure what apply is, possibly. 00:44:46 i guess it might be reduce or something 00:45:14 (apply x '(1 2 3)) -> (x 1 2 3) 00:45:25 :O 00:45:32 i see. 00:45:37 (defproc (~ . args) ...) ; args is a list, but of course append takes many arguments and shoves them together, so we need to use apply 00:45:45 to explain 00:45:49 the translation of ~ to python is 00:46:08 define tilde(*args): append(*map(to_string, args)) 00:46:15 err, s/define/def and add a return 00:46:16 but yeah 00:46:30 oerjan: i often cry because of my malfunctioning eyes, never because i'm sad; is that a problem regarding chuck'ness? 00:47:19 oklopol: Screen brightness. Turn it down. :P 00:47:44 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 00:48:00 append? 00:48:07 i didn't know python had that as a function 00:48:17 neither does my python interp :\ 00:48:26 it doesn't 00:48:29 it was a direct translation 00:48:29 oh 00:48:33 the idea is to figure out what apply does 00:48:50 here's a definition of apply in python 00:48:57 def apply(func, args): return func(*args) 00:48:59 you see? 00:50:34 oh 00:50:37 right. 00:51:49 :-) 00:52:39 need... sleep 00:55:27 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:55:45 oklopol: i am not sure. check the cancer-curing properties. 00:56:25 !check cancer curing properties 00:56:52 cccp 00:57:02 oh dear 00:57:20 you filthy communist or something 00:57:54 i am just thinking that the collapse of the soviet union lost us the cure for cancer 00:57:56 -!- puzzlet has quit (Connection timed out). 00:58:06 the screen brightness can't really be an issue, since i've had multiple screens, and they hurt with any screen 00:58:46 also, it's weird how i think of an answer right away, but for some reason answer much later, even if the guy has already gone 00:59:03 fractured hip 00:59:46 we are approaching a black hole, strange time dilation observed 01:00:10 i thought only old people fractured their hips 01:00:41 mostly so i guess 01:01:06 young people don't have hips, hips are something you get with menopause 01:01:26 apparently scandinavia also has the world's highest incidence of osteoporosis, or something 01:01:56 that's mainly because the polar bears eat the cows. 01:02:33 i am not sure, because i also think we have some of the highest milk intake 01:03:28 i even vaguely recall someone suggesting milk might actually _hurt_ bone calcium, in some perverse way 01:03:51 now that was probably dubious even when i read/heard it 01:05:57 I'd suspect genetic influence. 01:06:00 you can scientifically prove anything 01:06:36 oklopol: Actually, you can't scientifically prove anything: science cannot prove, only guess, observe, and disprove. 01:06:39 oerjan is old enough to be my dad 01:07:17 i'm old enough to be my own dad 01:07:20 oerjan can't be *that* old. 01:07:52 Just because he's got a Ph.D. doesn't make him quite that old. ;) 01:08:03 oerjan is 32 01:08:28 why thank you. 01:08:35 hmm nevermind then 01:08:36 some people ask, i give incorrect information and wait for things to happen 01:08:37 but actually, 37. 01:08:38 oh, right 01:08:41 he would have to be a very young dad 01:08:45 age doesn't work that way. 01:08:46 oh, that's more like it 01:08:51 So, he's moderately close to how old my mom is. 01:09:18 have i told the story of how i almost became a dad when i was 15 01:09:45 that oklopol 01:09:53 i guess i just told it 01:09:56 didn't your mommy teach you to use protection? 01:10:01 :D 01:10:12 i don't like condoms 01:10:43 but let's try to keep the conversation non-genitaley for once? 01:11:03 conversations should only be about sex and programming 01:11:19 software exchange ftw 01:11:32 * pikhq programs sex 01:11:50 uhh small deja vu 01:12:59 sexbot passes turing-test! 01:14:48 yep, no surprise 01:15:09 wonder if i should read one chapter more, watch an fg or go to sleep 01:15:27 In that order. 01:16:01 well, who am i to say no 01:16:07 * oklopol reads 01:16:28 only 42 pages 01:16:39 -!- RobHu has joined. 01:16:56 what are you reading? 01:20:07 -!- RobHu has left (?). 01:26:45 i think i'm reading the art of assembly language 01:27:05 DAMN, r.e.s. is dense. 01:27:21 *cough* 01:28:04 you mean bob wyatt? 01:28:11 answers.com never fails 01:28:37 now, i mean the one on our wiki. 01:28:49 *no 01:30:31 ah, the nothing 01:30:42 i disagree, i think nothingness is far from dense 01:31:16 DAMN, oklopol is dense. on purpose, even. 01:31:45 :D 01:32:28 r.e.s.? 01:32:43 well, yes, that's what i meant with "bob wyatt" 01:32:45 we're having an argument. :) 01:32:54 oh, right 01:33:05 oerjan: shut up you disoriented fool! 01:33:25 I see. 01:33:37 * oklopol still doesn't 01:34:06 oklopol: Talk:Brainhype 01:34:26 I looked at the recent changes, saw a *lot* of stuff from R.e.s 01:35:04 It's computable because you could use an oracle to interpret it? WTF? 01:35:14 I see he doesn't know what "computable" means. 01:36:36 not sure what's hard to exist in gravity 01:37:09 also, why does he mention gravity if he hasn't bothered to read the 50 lines of it on the wiki :P 01:37:25 let's all mock him now, yes? 01:37:30 why ain't i reading... 01:41:46 Although I love how Brainhype seems to profess to claim to solve the halting problem for Brainhype. 01:58:18 argh 01:58:20 can't read 01:58:22 must 01:58:24 sleep -> 01:58:27 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Springs_church_shooting 01:59:44 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:59:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("fix('Z':)"). 02:01:21 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:08:19 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 02:10:17 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:13:23 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 02:14:59 pikhq: again, terrible performance 02:20:19 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:22:30 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:32:55 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Connection timed out). 04:45:41 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:46:28 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:53:27 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 05:02:57 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 05:03:46 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:08:42 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:10:56 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:49:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:11:14 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:11:16 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 06:27:48 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:27:49 -!- puzzlet has joined. 06:45:29 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 07:15:11 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 07:15:12 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:48:27 lol... someone tell me a good way to reverse a list in bf :D 09:48:33 this is fucking huge :\ 09:48:34 [<-[+<<-]+<[[->+<]+[>[->>+<<]>]>[->>+<<]>[>[->>+<<]>]>[-<+>]<-[<<]<]<]>>>[>>]<<[->>+<<]>> 09:49:08 pebble to the rescue? 09:50:03 Let me see. 09:51:14 i can give you the version vwith comments 09:51:21 unless you wanna decipher yourself 09:51:38 well, not really comments, just the same thing in pseudocode 09:51:56 wellll, almost the same 09:53:05 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p655362262.txt the notation is in no way consistent, but the examples may show what it does, unless you already found out 09:53:28 x's are the list to reverse, it can't contain zeroes 09:54:00 Thanks. 09:54:03 it's just i'm pretty sure there's a "oneliner" for that 09:55:32 curr-=n sometimes means to move the pointer, sometimes to change the value xD 09:56:03 There was a contest a while ago to reverse a zero-terminated byte string. Judged on prog length * mem use * commands executed, I think, but the shortest was Bertram Felgenhauer's here >[[[>]>+<<[<]>-]>[[<+>-]>]<<]>>>[[<<+>>-]>]<<<<[<] 09:56:19 oh 09:56:25 then i consider mine well enough 09:56:26 Although I'm thinking with all the known 1s it must be possible to do better. 09:56:40 they're not known 09:56:43 they are added 09:56:49 x's are the list 09:56:57 1's are to help me reverse it... 09:57:02 I mean, after they're added, then they're known. I.e. by the time the reverse happens those bytes are known to be 1. 09:57:10 ah, well yeah 09:58:42 i was fearing you could do that somehow just as simply as reversed catting 09:59:01 not that i have any idea what that code does. 10:00:14 heh, you know you haven't done brainfuck for a while when you consider reversing a string a trivial task :D 10:00:32 or, you have done it a lot. 10:00:34 either way... 10:02:40 hmm, actually 10:02:44 i'm a fucking idiot. 10:02:58 Yeah? You don't need to reverse it at all? 10:03:17 i could easily make mine a lot faster + shorter 10:03:37 i just realized i can actually move bytes longer distances than a constant one 10:03:42 with [>>] loops 10:03:46 Right. 10:03:53 [+[>>]-[<<]] 10:03:55 or something 10:04:19 didn't occur to me, loooong time since i last did brainfuck, and i'm fairly sure i was a steenking noob back then 10:04:31 Ah. 10:04:44 and, well 10:04:49 not sure whether i need to reverse 10:04:56 i need input in reverse 10:05:09 but... i have right-extended memory 10:05:26 if i don't reverse it, i'll get complications later 10:07:22 Might shift the whole thing right with each input byte. Probably not actually any slower. 10:07:52 >,[[>]<[[>+<-]<]>,] or something. 10:08:42 it shifts 10:08:47 i mean, mine 10:08:53 ooooh 10:09:10 sorry, i forgot the context completely there :P 10:09:45 so obvious, should've thought of that 10:10:09 it's just it's slow to change ordo intuition when switching between languages 10:10:22 Or if you wanted the ones for something other than reversing, more like >,[[>]<[[>>+<<-]<]>>+<,] I think. 10:10:57 i see you have the skill. 10:11:25 Nah, I just barely switch. I rarely write anything except in C or brainfuck. 10:13:04 what more could a programmer possibly need 10:13:11 :) 10:15:04 after trying python, i've become so lazy it was real hard for me to actually get started on my bf project... it's scary when there's actually a possibility there's an error in my code! 10:15:15 well, not trying, using for a few years 10:15:33 or one... i can't assess time really 10:15:56 hmm 10:15:58 "assess" 10:16:09 well, close enough 10:18:03 What's the project, just out of curiosity? 10:18:34 i actually did have an error there, wrote [>-<+]-[<<] when should've had >[-<+>]<-[<<] 10:18:38 oh 10:19:11 thought i'd try making a brainfuck interpreter for unlambda, although quickly changed it to making ski in brainfuck for unknown reasons ;) 10:19:31 in bf code, i'm currently at getting input :D 10:19:40 although, i've had about an hour of coding sofar 10:19:41 :) 10:20:07 i have the algo a bit further on paper, shouldn't be hard to make, but fucking tedious 10:20:40 Right. 10:21:01 pikhq: have you thought about making something a bit more high-level than pebble, where you could do stuff like [set a [+ [* 8 c] b]] 10:21:29 "right" as in "shuuuure...."? :P 10:21:54 "Right" as in "Yeah, tedious.". 10:23:02 And probably really hard to make concise and graceful. 10:23:15 i've tried making ski once in an imperative language, it was the ti-89 basic on my calculator, the implementation as far as i got it was quite interesting, for example, used pictures for a stack :P 10:24:06 yeah, for the actual computation part it'd be nice to get something a bit prettier than a reversing algo that leaves random shit behind :P 10:24:14 (hope you didn't run my reverser...) 10:24:27 I didn't. 10:24:53 it leaves behind ones in place of the original values, plus a one at the beginning 11:22:36 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:41:15 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 13:33:18 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:35:12 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:38:00 -!- tegelane has joined. 13:38:08 -!- tegelane has left (?). 14:17:40 -!- oerjan has quit ("9876543210"). 14:31:49 -!- jix has joined. 14:54:53 -!- ehird` has joined. 15:07:51 -!- Jontte has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:07:58 -!- Jontte has joined. 15:13:12 -!- lament has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:13:20 -!- lament has joined. 15:34:57 -!- Jontte has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:38:12 -!- Jontte has joined. 15:43:04 Yay! 15:43:14 I succeeded with that first Turing machine program on mine! 16:04:46 -!- Jontte has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 16:08:37 hmm 16:08:43 someone rate the esotericness of this idea: 16:09:04 A Scheme implementation that converts to CPS. (Wait, but that isn't esoteric? Chicken does that.) Ah yes -- but it's an interpreter! 16:25:04 ok apparently that doesn't suprise people 16:30:05 Either that or noone's reading. 16:32:04 Slereah: you are, evidently :\-) 16:32:41 Yes, but barely understand your words! 16:40:11 hehe 16:40:17 cps=continuation-passing-style 16:43:40 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:50:37 -!- cherez has joined. 16:56:05 oklopol: it's also written in python, so it will be 10x more crazy than your impl 17:23:56 Rargh. 17:24:40 I can't get some program working, and I don't know if it's because of my interpreter or if I entered it wrong. 17:24:51 I need to find an easier way of typing it in. 17:28:42 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 17:28:52 -!- jix has joined. 17:29:12 what lang? 17:30:06 I wrote a Turing machine in Python. 17:30:21 And I'm trying to type in this : http://www.abelard.org/turpap2/tp2-ie.asp#section-3 17:30:29 The "001011011101111011111" one. 17:31:06 Since my program asks for every step, it is frustrating to type it. 17:31:20 a 2d program then 17:31:24 Hm? 17:31:28 also: make it read from the file 17:31:30 a file 17:31:55 Well, right now, I'll be happy if I can just copypasta the whole Turing program. 17:32:04 Well, evidently you can't 17:32:20 Well, it can't be bigger than a hundred chars. 17:32:40 If I find a way for the program to read it in one go. 17:33:28 what is this interp written in 17:33:36 Python. 17:34:28 So far, it's that : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/turing.py 17:34:54 Slereah: can i suggest formatting your code? :-) 17:35:08 Can I suggest defining the word "formatting"? 17:35:22 If it means "Clean that thing up", it would be a nice idea. 17:38:22 for a start, add more spaces around binary operators and 'print' 17:38:28 remove the spaces around your function calls 17:38:35 and indent to 4 spaces (python standard) 17:38:35 :-) 17:38:46 Oh. 17:38:56 I don't really pay attention to that. 17:39:12 others who may want to read your code do! 17:39:16 but anyway 17:39:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:39:32 why not just read the stuff from a file 17:39:36 instead of your raw_inputs 17:39:57 The main reason is that so far, I haven't tried file input in Python. 17:40:08 And I had a bad experience with it in C. 17:40:28 open(filename).read() -> string 17:40:35 gives the whole file. 17:40:49 for better closing: 17:40:54 try: 17:41:00 f = open(filename) 17:41:04 text = f.read() 17:41:06 finally: 17:41:08 f.close() 17:41:10 Well, if I first make the raw_input thingy, I can see how it works and then change the source of the string from raw_input to the file. 17:41:17 but you're having problems. 17:41:19 so just do that. 17:41:20 QED. 17:41:39 Well, the problem is just typing all the instructions everytime. 17:41:56 Since I have to confirm everystep, I can't just copypasta it. 17:42:51 so remove the confirm 17:43:07 That's what I'm doing. 17:43:50 But I can't just write one line to do that, as far as I know. 17:45:44 well if you didn't make a function for confirmation in the first place... 17:46:09 if you did, replacing it with a dummy one should be simple 17:46:35 Well, as you can see, there's a whole lot of raw_input. 17:47:29 actually i cannot since i didn't note the url 17:47:36 Oh. 17:48:00 snatching from logs 17:49:18 well, global search and replace should fix that 17:49:34 i.e. rename it to your own function. 18:14:25 -!- Jontte has joined. 18:50:49 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:37:26 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 19:50:38 -!- Slereah- has joined. 19:50:38 Aaaargh 19:50:38 Too much Slereah. 19:50:41 -!- Slereah has quit (Nick collision from services.). 19:51:05 -!- Slereah- has changed nick to Slereah. 19:51:25 I think I did it. 19:51:40 It probably won't go down as the cleanest code in history, but it seems to work. 19:58:48 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/ 19:58:54 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Hello%20world!.txt means I 20:02:51 -!- Slereah- has joined. 20:04:01 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:08:39 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:08:59 -!- Slereah has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:09:03 -!- Slereah_ has changed nick to Slereah. 20:09:51 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Hello%20world%202.txt 20:10:05 Thar. 20:19:03 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:22:22 -!- puzzlet has joined. 20:22:23 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:23:25 R.I.P., i say 20:30:07 -!- ehird` has joined. 20:32:12 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:35:42 feck 20:37:11 fuck 20:38:50 "It was like passing through checkpoints," he said. "But I had Wikipedia and a few other sites open, so it was not so difficult really." 20:38:54 http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=3973925 20:51:24 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 20:56:43 that reminds me of an old comedy series here in norway (which i think actually was translated from britain) 20:57:18 in which the main character called Nikita Krushchev 20:57:29 Hahahah 20:57:31 That = awesome 20:57:52 oh wait, it was Breshnev 20:58:16 i think 21:00:49 --EDITOR QUIZ TIME-- 21:00:53 what editor do you use? 21:02:06 vim 21:05:14 cat 21:05:43 dog 21:05:54 various things 21:06:01 (bet cha didn't see that coming xD) 21:06:05 i toy with writing my own often 21:06:48 * oerjan calculates what oklopol owes him 21:07:23 you are _so_ predictable 21:10:34 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 21:29:51 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 21:40:10 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:43:10 -!- RedDak has joined. 21:50:32 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 22:09:50 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:12:27 -!- Arrogant has joined. 22:18:51 i use an editor, yes. 22:19:30 groundbreaking, this one 22:29:56 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving"). 22:38:53 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:44:37 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:54:55 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:03:51 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:11:42 -!- SuicideSalmon has joined. 23:12:06 -!- puzzlet has joined. 23:42:37 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:44:27 -!- Tritonio_ has joined.