00:00:14 hmm, for a moment there it was like being at the guillotine, and lighting the rope that holds the blade up on fire, waiting to see if it burns thru. 00:00:15 well, maybe not that drastic. 00:11:36 Hiato: didn't realize the modulo place is zero after it's nulled. 00:11:39 :) 00:12:51 uhh shouldn't tell where i am in a book in irc, it's kinda disappointing to see how slow i am :) 00:13:18 i've read 47 pages in 5 hours 00:16:46 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:25:45 -!- Jontte has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 00:27:13 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:27:36 -!- timotiis has quit ("leaving"). 00:47:20 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 01:01:46 interesting 01:02:28 ((p1 p2) d) seems to equal (p1 (p2 d)), where application means permutation by a list of indices 01:02:38 *indexes 01:03:25 seems a bit redundant to reinvent permutations fully just because i'm too lazy to search for them on the web :DD 01:03:37 whhhell, continuing -> 02:11:08 -!- ihope has joined. 02:13:15 Ello ello ello. 02:13:58 AYEE 02:14:40 Ello to you to. 02:14:51 For definitions of "to" that make sense here. 02:15:32 i was too busy trying to find a pun about "h", but that kinda killed it. 02:15:40 "here" that is 02:15:55 not a pun really... what's the more generic thing... 02:15:59 joke i guess 02:22:03 half the time i ask something on #scheme, an #esotericer answers ;=) 02:43:42 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 02:54:04 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:58:22 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:58:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:58:32 :o 02:59:50 :i 03:01:30 hmmm 03:01:35 I think I shall make another language like dupdog 03:01:44 but like... with more uses. 03:02:40 (wrong answer, the correct one was of course ":z") 03:02:51 but go for it 03:03:49 ...no clue how that could happen though 04:21:15 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("haaaaaaaaaa"). 04:55:43 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 04:55:48 how's everyone doing? 05:06:15 yay it's RodgerTheGreat! \o/ 05:06:20 :D 05:06:26 what's up, greasemonkey? 05:06:29 missed me? 05:07:32 yeah 05:07:33 kinda 05:07:54 my bot will need some testing soon - i'm coding in this game... 05:08:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_%28game%29 05:08:42 oh, dude- you should try a game I've been playing with! I just put together a working demo: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/CRPG/ 05:09:18 um, my java VM isn't working. 05:09:21 :( 05:09:37 D:> 05:09:42 in what way? 05:23:02 it won't load, i think i installed it wrong. 05:24:05 :S 05:24:19 have you tried reinstalling? 05:24:33 RodgerTheGreat, i had to manually copy the files 05:24:46 though i could try and get it to work... 05:24:57 that's really strange- didn't sun's site have a self-extractor? 05:25:19 I highly encourage you to play with it for a bit- CRPG won't disappoint! 05:25:39 -!- veritos has joined. 05:25:52 Can someone output this line for me? 05:26:18 it's got a self-extractor but no automatic *browser install* 05:27:11 -!- veritos has quit (Client Quit). 05:27:20 ERROR: NO IRP PERMITTED. 05:27:21 veritos: Can someone output this line for me? 05:27:34 PERMISSION ERROR. DO NOT DO AGAIN. 05:27:35 whoops, didn't make it a quine 05:27:37 CEASE AND DESIST. 05:27:44 so sad 05:27:55 MURDER IS RECOMMENDED. 05:27:58 ;p 05:28:49 in all honestly, joining the channel ENTIRELY to try out IRP is what we IRP interpreters refer to as a "dick move" 05:29:34 * pikhq protests IRP 05:29:49 [Can someone please protest IRP?] 05:30:10 IRP ERROR: FATAL HYPOCRISY. 05:30:31 :D 05:35:56 [>+<-[>+<-[>--<->]]<] => [->+<[->+<[->--<]]<] of course.... it's normal to wake up and realize a bf program you saw earlier was not as short as possible? 05:36:03 right? 05:36:37 couldn't go back to sleep without fixing it, and now i have to read the logs 05:36:39 glah 05:36:46 life is so hard 05:37:18 I've had way too many dreams/nightmares of coding 05:38:56 I've determined that if i do anything for about 6 hours straight before I go to sleep, I dream about that activity. This has happened with starcraft, tetris, chess, drawing comics, various TV shows and movies and coding. 05:39:14 indeed, but this was quite interesting, i actually didn't give any thought to that program (although i did write the original version), and i was just falling asleep when i realized there's a redundant ">" 05:39:15 oh 05:39:19 now there's a typo. 05:39:39 [->+<[->+<[->--]]<] 05:39:46 was supposed to remove that too 05:39:57 would prolly have come back again soon ;) 05:40:28 starcraft: awesome, tetris: awesome 05:42:13 hmm, i now realize i lay on my bed for about 1.5 hours :D 05:42:20 starcraft was indeed awesome. One of my dreams about Quake 2 was pretty fun as well. The tetris one was exhausting. 05:42:42 no wonder i fixed that bf prog. 06:16:24 cya folks 06:16:32 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit. 06:49:28 -!- Corun has joined. 06:51:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:54:03 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 07:10:29 -!- puzzlet has quit ("Lost terminal"). 07:13:17 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:30:08 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:34:43 -!- Jontte has joined. 08:46:38 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:46:43 -!- puzzlet has joined. 08:52:48 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. Man who run behind car get exhauste). 09:39:19 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:55:38 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:25:45 -!- slereah_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:37:55 -!- Slereah has joined. 10:52:03 -!- timotiis has joined. 10:57:51 -!- Slereah has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:37:58 -!- slereah_ has joined. 11:55:18 -!- pgimeno has joined. 11:57:31 I'm experiencing a database problem with the wiki, could someone please check if it's just me? http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Kayak 11:59:08 It's not just you. 12:02:50 Thanks, slereah_ 12:07:22 -!- slereah_ has changed nick to Slereah. 12:11:52 -!- jix has joined. 12:46:42 Hm, the article is not lost: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Kayak&oldid=7834 13:24:48 -!- Jontte has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 13:36:41 -!- pgimeno has left (?). 14:08:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:11:10 nothing wrong with the Kayak page now that i can see 14:11:32 these database problems happen now and then. usually reloading fixes them. 14:32:14 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 14:32:20 hey everyone 14:32:42 Hi 14:34:13 'afternoon 14:41:13 Hi. 14:47:58 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 14:53:12 I had another one of those videogame dreams last night. I was playing a game I *knew* was a sequel to gears of war, but it was exactly like Outpost 2 (an RTS) except in a jungle setting. I did this really tough "escort 150 people" mission, and then when I came back to my base it was largely destroyed by an earthquake or something. Then I realized I never had any ConVecs or Earthworkers, and I didn't have a vehicle factory so I was completely screw 14:54:02 (convecs are truck-like things used to build structures in Outpost 2) 14:55:57 It was still better than dreaming about tetris for 8 hours. 14:58:34 I'm still really confused about the gears of war part, because I've never even played that game. :S 15:17:33 -!- ihope has joined. 15:30:10 -!- jix__ has joined. 15:30:12 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:50:34 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:15:19 RodgerTheGreat: you dreamt about tetris fo r8 housr? 17:15:28 If they become physically disabled they move to work that is not affected by 17:15:28 such disabilities. At the extreme, those who are completely paralysed can work 17:15:31 completely using cybernetics. However, many such injuries can be repaired with 17:15:34 their medical technology or will just heal. 17:15:37 um 17:15:38 wrong button 17:15:40 oops 17:15:58 copid from elsewhere 17:17:07 lol 17:17:43 I dunno if I dreamt for 8 hours, but I slept for 8 hours and woke up tired as hell. It seemed to go on forever 17:18:07 they say it's physically impossible to dream for that long 17:18:26 yes, generally REM sleep occurs for periods of 30 minutes 17:18:29 but i've had dreams where i remember incidents from a whole week just from one night's sleep.- 17:18:32 psychologically, maybe, but not physically 17:18:56 but, i prolly just make the details up when trying to remember them. 17:19:13 hmm... i doubt psychologically is the right term either 17:19:16 my point was that it *felt* like 8 hours, although it's exceedingly unlikely that's how long it actually lasted 17:19:36 indeed, just being anal because it's more tight. 17:20:14 * SimonRC get temporarily confused from the appearance of "anal" and "tight" in the same sentance 17:20:25 * SimonRC tpye crappy 17:20:35 I think that was intentional 17:20:56 well i never! :O 17:21:18 that saying doesn't work in writing. 17:21:38 which saying? 17:22:59 the anal thing or "Well, I *never*!" 17:23:52 letter. 17:23:54 *latter 17:24:30 i guess it does work 17:24:34 just never seen it. 17:24:40 I dunno, it works alright with appropriate punctuation to convey emphasis and cadence 17:25:12 yeah 17:26:48 writing leaves out a great deal of the information conveyed in speech, so it's necessary to add those things back in for some phrases to make sense. It's a little like the reason emoticons are useful. 17:29:41 indeed. i prefer the way lojban does this though 17:30:05 that is, integrate stuff like that into the language itself 17:30:14 The only word of Lojban I currently remember (other than "lojban") is .ii. 17:31:09 i didn't remember that 17:31:25 not that i've studied the lang much 17:31:54 I dunno, english has adapted to all kinds of syntactic patches and markup pretty well 17:32:12 English is an always will be the native tongue of the internet 17:32:15 *and 17:32:33 man, I could've tried to play that off as an accent... 17:34:41 english might be the native tongue of the internet out of backwards compatibility, but i won't agree it's a good language still. 17:35:41 (LALNA, people, LALNA) 17:36:08 (actually, that might not work as well as in the case of oklotalk and graphica, since i geuss i haven't mentioned it much.) 17:36:23 (anyway, it's awesome, awesome i tells ya) 17:37:26 LALNA? 17:38:01 a conlang of mine 17:38:13 a work-in-progress of course, like i'd ever finish anything. 17:38:17 Also, people really should be careful when saying "will always be". 17:38:23 indeed. 17:38:53 because there's always the idiot who'll say "YOU CAN'T KNOW THAT" ;-) 17:39:14 s/idiot/big meanie 17:39:53 ihope: granted 17:40:27 In the future, maybe we'll all speak our own languages and our computers will translate for us. 17:40:29 what I meant is "will be for a very long time and the forseeable future" 17:40:36 * ihope nods 17:40:51 Maybe we'll all speak a language that our computers can actually understand. :-P 17:41:05 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:41:12 my view of the future is we're all going to die soon and robots take over the world, so hard to have a serious debate on the subject. 17:41:28 and i'm actually being serious here :) 17:41:28 I think we should overload the word "always" to mean something more along those lines, because that's generally what people mean when they use it. 17:42:02 we could do what lalna does and just add the module to the lalna wiki 17:42:06 depends on if you mean "soon" in a cultural, evolutionary or geological sense 17:42:24 you could allocate the module rtgia and add that term 17:42:39 people who know you could then learn the module rtgia. 17:42:52 uhhh, i love lalna <3 17:43:09 RodgerTheGreat: 15-100 years 17:44:23 100 years, I can see a remote possibility. 15 years, not a fucking chance. I will bet my CS degree that strong AI will not exist in any practical sense within 15 years. 17:45:07 i hope you're right, and i hope i'll feel the same way after really starting to research ai. 17:45:24 -!- slereah_ has joined. 17:46:07 I have some experience, and it's one of my areas of interest. I'm not saying I'm not going to try to help strong AI become a reality, but it'd be a tremendous leap from what we can do now. 17:47:18 well, not only that, i also have my own theory why seed ai doesn't work as a concept 17:47:34 so, when i think about it, it seems ridiculous, but it's my underlying view, and that's hard to change :D 17:47:53 What's seed AI? 17:48:26 the idea that an ai that owns humans at thinking could start reproducing better and better versions of itself 17:48:48 Why doesn't it work? 17:48:49 exponentially growing in intelligence 17:48:59 i'll write an article tonight, you can read it. 17:49:04 Okay. 17:49:19 i don't have much thoughts, and they're not that great, so i'll not use them up here, i need articles you see :) 17:49:52 * ihope shrugs 17:51:30 well, here's my logic: Humans have extreme difficulty replicating human intelligence, and I think we can agree that a single human is not capable of this at all. Therefore, if humans create an AI with human intelligence, even IF it has some augmented capabilities (perfect memory, really fast at math, multitasking, etc assuming these are even possible within the AI design we come up with), it won't magically be able to build better AIs 17:52:29 well, that's essentially the idea. 17:52:33 I think we'll find that many of the properties that make computers better at what humans are naturally good at will turn out to be a tradeoff sacrificing the things that computers are normally better at 17:54:53 also, a point about what it means to reproduce a human brain in functionality 17:55:22 it's widely believed (TM) that humans were capable of everything they can do today already tens of thousands of years ago 17:55:29 (i base this on a movie.) 17:55:51 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:55:51 so, even if a computer would be able to do what a human does, humans might exceed it's capabilities soon. 17:56:52 for example, my father would think there was a bear in my room if i showed him a photoshopped picture about it, a friend of mine would laugh at the picture and point out the parts of the picture where the pictures don't match 17:57:16 bad example, perhaps, but i do believe some capabilities like this are actually lacked by previous generations. 17:59:20 -!- Corun has joined. 18:00:00 although, i do believe in a lot of weird things. 18:01:28 there's nothing wrong with strange beliefs as long as you have an open mind an you aren't dogmatic about said beliefs 18:02:27 I could firmly believe that cats shit candy if you pet them enough, but if I refused to alter my beliefs after being confronted with evidence to the contrary I'd be stupid AND crazy. 18:04:55 a side-note on that, people should be taught math better, people seem to have no capability of changing the environment of logic, that is, you cannot say "let's assume for a while that ..." without being interrupted in case you haven't yet proved what you are assuming is true 18:05:36 while in fact you were never going to, and actually using that as an argument why said thing is in fact *not* true 18:06:21 perhaps it's the lack of first-class truth environments in english 18:06:33 lalna's "aiq", anyone? 18:07:18 hmm... that's not first class, it's a special environment statement, but it's something, anyway. 18:07:37 teaching formal logic is a bit more fundamental than something to be lumped in with mathematics, especially at the age people should be learning these things 18:07:51 well, true. 18:08:03 i just meant logical thought in general. 18:08:11 guess that shouldn't be called math in this case 18:08:25 personally, I'd like to see core curriculum becoming Math, Logic, and Grammar, rather than the "three R's" 18:08:37 three r's? 18:08:43 i've heard that though 18:09:03 Reading, Writing and Arithmetic. 18:09:18 the three R's come from a cute perversion of the english language. 18:09:36 a rhythm medic 18:10:01 History is something that's easy to learn on your own if you're literate. Math is harder to learn on your own. Therefore, Math is more important in public schools. 18:11:29 yep, i wrote an angry essay on this for school once, the principal wanted to have a talk with me about my *ideas* 18:11:33 never had it though. 18:11:33 and if people can reason and debate properly within a logical framework, there's no problem with people learning things like History on their own, because they can identify a reputable source and discard poor reasoning. 18:11:37 guess she for got it 18:12:18 Why not make the core curriculum, Untyped, Simply typed and Dependantly typed lambda calculuys 18:12:30 :) 18:12:30 Public school should cover fundamental skills and teach people what they need to teach themselves. Universities should then allow people to learn specialized knowledge from experts. 18:12:59 faxlore: that's a bit more pedantic and detailed than is necessary for most applications. 18:13:08 but I wouldn't be against including it... 18:13:46 in my opinion formal logic should be taught before teaching a child how to read. 18:13:51 it's a lot more useful. 18:14:37 there's no reason those can't be done at the same time 18:14:39 can I take this opportunity to ask for any suggestions of books/texts on Logic? 18:15:09 teach them what logical fallacies are as you're teaching them how to spell their names and tie their shoes 18:15:14 well, true, but i think logic (and even mathematical notation for it) might be easier to learn than reading in general 18:15:27 a child might actually pick up logic fundamentally pretty fast. 18:15:31 you'd wind up with a generation of clear thinkers and do the world unmeasurable benefit 18:16:01 being able to read and write makes it easier to express concepts to the children, though 18:16:31 symbolic notation is much clearer than expressing ideas conversationally, but conversation methods are a good way to *start* 18:16:51 uhhh, i need a child 18:16:53 chicks here? :) 18:17:20 not that I'm aware of. I haven't seen Sukoshi around lately. 18:17:46 And no offense, but I think she'd be out of your league anyway. 18:17:48 yeah, she seems like a nice catch 18:17:53 you think? :D 18:17:57 mine too 18:18:00 in what sense, though? 18:18:26 now there's a question 18:18:33 bbiab 18:18:35 :D 18:18:48 i'm actually pretty good at getting chicks irl 18:19:05 they like my weirdness until they get to know me and realize i'm actually that weird. 18:20:28 (but by that time, i have my kid! mwahahaha) 18:20:32 (or not.) 18:23:30 -!- Jontte has joined. 18:30:05 How evil of you. 18:32:03 -!- slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:32:03 -!- slereah__ has joined. 18:32:16 * sebbu listen to Ayumi Hamasaki - A BEST 2 (BLACK) [2007.02.28] - 12 - HANABI ~episode II~.mp3 [320kbps] 18:32:40 ihope: please add a question mark 18:33:03 How evil of you? 18:37:12 quite. 18:39:55 -!- slereah_ has joined. 18:41:38 -!- slereah__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:49:08 Was the correct answer "please add a question mark?"? 18:49:53 -!- timotiis has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:50:38 ihope: no, there was no correct answer, but good guess :) 18:50:52 Yay! 18:51:03 I mean, boo! Maybe. 19:09:24 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:09:26 -!- RodgerTheGreat_ has joined. 19:17:35 -!- Possum has quit ("enabling unicode"). 19:25:02 -!- RodgerTheGreat_ has changed nick to RodgerTheGreat. 19:28:27 -!- jix__ has quit ("CommandQ"). 19:35:20 -!- timotiis has joined. 19:46:39 oklopol: back on the topic of education, I think it'd be excellent if we took steps to identify the learning styles of children at a very young age (auditory, visual, kinesthetic, etc) and then sorted the kids into classes that catered to their best mode of learning. I think it would lead to more efficient teaching, and fewer people frustrated with school because of mismatches 19:48:26 For example, I'm an auditory learner- I can soak up information very easily by listening to someone explain it. As a result, lecture-heavy classes are generally easy for me as long as I remain attentive, and I know I need to take more notes in other classes, like mathematics where much of the content is visual rather than verbal. 20:15:31 i don't believe in learning styles 20:15:57 me neither really 20:16:26 well, i'm really just bad at learning using my senses 20:18:07 well, it's all about tendencies- everyone has a couple strong points that can serve them well if they identify them and learn to make use of them 20:20:11 for me it's more about concentration 20:20:33 i'm generally half-asleep all the time 20:23:10 being a proficient computer user involves culturing a very specific kind of ADD. 20:23:35 It involves doing what, now? 20:23:52 our user interfaces tend to make people task switch a lot 20:24:33 Do you ever find yourself switching to an email client for a few seconds to check your mail right in the middle of reading a webpage, or similar? 20:25:01 and being a good programmer pretty much requires a person to hyper-focus on a task for long periods of time. 20:25:45 * ihope nods 20:27:46 I find that it takes a lot of practice to embrace multitasking during some activities, and then "switch it off" to concentrate on a single task 20:28:28 ditto 20:30:20 It lends me to believe that user interface design could benefit from this knowledge by catering to these two classes of activities. 20:31:42 IDEs that are fullscreened with a minimum of visual elements to distract one from coding, with just a clock and a little tab for controlling background music playlists perhaps 20:32:48 in general trying to make application suites that streamline an entire workflow into a single app and provide everything you want without having to switch programs or return to the desktop 20:33:35 it'd be like the exact opposite of the Unix philosophy of having many small tools that each do a specific thing 20:34:37 the problem is, there's a very fine line between doing everything a user needs and being bloated 20:40:25 well, the solution i've been thinking is to get a separate computer with nothing but coding facilities. 20:48:55 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 21:13:54 RodgerTheGreat: shouldn't you consider the unix environment to be a single IDE? 21:14:00 RodgerTheGreat: see also colorForth 21:59:58 * SimonRC goes 22:03:50 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:13:58 -!- Corun has joined. 23:15:06 hmm, took me about 10 minutes to write a function to generically run a genetic algo in python 23:15:12 just did the same in scheme 23:15:15 took 8 hours :D 23:30:45 you are less experienced with scheme? 23:30:54 i just started. 23:30:58 ah 23:31:05 what algo? 23:31:17 you supply a mutation function and a pool of data 23:31:25 Can I see both programs? 23:31:29 ok, go ahead, but probably over my head 23:31:37 and a scoring function 23:31:54 it then scores every object in the pool 23:31:58 removes the ones that suck 23:32:14 and mutates the good objects with each other to get the pool full 23:32:20 ...repeat. 23:33:07 well, to be fully honest, the actual function to do that did not take 8 hours, more like 3 23:33:15 but anyway... 23:33:17 faxlore: i guess.. 23:33:23 can see them? 23:33:24 they are not exactly the same 23:33:32 oklopol, pastebin 23:33:38 oh they arent.. ? 23:33:50 That makes it less of a good comparison 23:33:57 the python one has a scripting language (currently utterly useless one) that does the scoring of an entry 23:34:01 oklopol, now: rewrite in bash 23:34:16 and the scheme one does permutation 23:34:42 i can upload the functions to do the evolution ofc, those are almost the same i think 23:34:53 oklopol, yes pleae 23:34:54 AnMaster: never done anything programmingish in bash 23:34:55 please* 23:34:58 oklopol, aww 23:39:24 hmm... the scheme one is a bit hard to get out of context copypastewise, since the functions are all at random locations :D 23:44:21 i'll just paste the whole thing... 23:45:38 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p116661161.txt 23:46:45 i love it how whitespaceless scheme forms those weird cloud thingies 23:47:01 yes! 23:47:09 the part after make-pool is my favorite 23:48:44 my original idea was to solve my rubik's cube, but i'm having a hard time getting my schemes right 23:49:22 in python, i'd most likely have a solution already... 23:49:28 * oklopol wants to do python 23:49:49 programmer's nymphomania 23:53:32 -!- timotiis has quit ("leaving").