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01:29:31 <GreaseMonkey> what's the "{{},{{}},{{},{{}}},{{},{{}},{{},{{}}}},{{},{{}},{{},{{}}},{{},{{}},{{},{{}}}}}}" for?
01:30:36 <oerjan> s/numeral/ordinal/, possibly
01:32:14 <oerjan> no. perhaps the other way around... :D
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01:40:31 <ehird> you knokw what we mean?
01:40:56 <ehird> a minesweeper unit cell :)
02:01:39 <ehird> Lisp WTF: progn is a special form, whereas it can be trivially defined as a function
02:01:41 <ehird> (defun my-progn (&rest args) (if (endp args) nil (car (last args))))
02:01:50 <ehird> Probably a reason for it
02:03:08 <oerjan> it's considerably older than the &rest keyword i think
02:04:05 <ehird> oerjan: this is a good piont
02:04:06 <oerjan> hm i vaguely recall originally you could have goto's in it
02:04:17 <ehird> oerjan: however, it is still true inthe Common Lisp spec
02:04:25 <ehird> which most definately has all that's required for the above
02:04:45 <oerjan> perhaps you still can have goto's and labels in it
02:05:35 <ehird> (that is: http://www.lisp.org/HyperSpec/Body/speope_progn.html )
02:05:43 <ehird> you are thinking of prog
02:06:03 <ehird> If progn appears as a top level form, then all forms within that progn are considered by the compiler to be top level forms. ;; maybe this is why it's a special form
02:06:26 <ehird> but that's a pretty bizzare rule
02:06:36 <oerjan> it's to allow macros to expand to more than one declaration
02:06:47 <ehird> (i guess nobody uses the 2 roman numeral outputs either, but this IS common lisp)
02:06:55 <oerjan> i vaguely recall that too :)
02:07:02 <ehird> (how I long for Scheme to be practical, I do...)
02:07:53 <ehird> emacs' lisp indentation is fuckde
02:08:02 <ehird> the first term of an IF is indented to the condition but beyond that 2 spaces
02:08:06 <ehird> which is emacs lisp convention
02:08:09 <ehird> (because it has an implicit progn)
02:11:14 <ehird> SLIME fixes that up nicely.
02:14:55 <ehird> Possibly I am the only person who is going to use Lisp and Haskell in harmony as my only two 'main' languages for writing the web apps running my website..
02:16:51 * oerjan feels obliged to mention Liskell
02:17:01 <oerjan> not that i've actually tried it...
02:17:07 <ehird> liskell is... crappy
02:17:27 <ehird> Let's just say that it isn't an adequate Lisp, and it isn't an adequate Haskell
02:18:08 <ehird> oerjan: I believe Lisp and Haskell are the top of the chain as far as abstraction and elegance goes in programming languages
02:18:15 <ehird> I like them both equally, and will use them both equally
02:21:51 <ehird> oerjan: I definately like Emacs/SLIME enough that not using Lisp would be unacceptable just because I'd deny myself that luxury!
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10:28:56 <slereah__> There seem to be pages that already exist in the "wanted pages"
10:29:27 <slereah__> I think because of different case.
10:32:44 <uvanta> maybe a bot can handle it, but if there's not so much case of it, we can just fix it one by one
10:32:47 <slereah__> Turing Tarpit instead of Turing tarpit
10:33:46 <uvanta> let's create some redirect pages then
10:34:20 <slereah__> As soon as my connection gets better.
10:38:13 <slereah__> I suppose that "Weird" is supposed to be "Wierd"?
10:39:26 <uvanta> yeah, Wierd is the name of an esolang
10:41:34 <uvanta> after checking http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Wantedpages
10:42:34 <uvanta> I think we may have some policy like, say, "You can state the author of language, but don't link it"
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12:15:58 <slereah__> The Post machine is much better to make some Brainfuck interpreter.
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14:34:09 <ehird> wow Liskell is serious
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14:45:33 <oerjan> haskell with lisp syntax
14:45:35 <ehird> It's haskell with a lot of prefix notation and parentheses
14:45:50 <ehird> yes they have a dot com
14:46:38 <ehird> for something as silly as liskell?
14:47:03 <ehird> it deserves a single page in someone's personal site with no design, about 1.5 screenfuls long, calling it 'a little toy hack'
14:47:17 <RodgerTheGreat> ".org" is equivalent to saying "This is super serious guys"
14:47:34 <oerjan> i never looked at it but my impression was it made it easy to add lisp-style macros to a haskell
14:47:42 <ehird> RodgerTheGreat: 'xactly... though my site is elliotthird.org :-)
14:47:51 <ehird> but then my site is super serious, guys!
14:48:02 <RodgerTheGreat> my site is rodger.nonlogic.org, which is also super serious
14:48:24 <ehird> the current iteration i'm working on uses about 5% of my horizontal screen real estate, heh
14:48:30 <ehird> but that's a good thing: it's easier to read small columns
14:48:40 * oerjan hails from oerjan.nvg.org, which indeed has no design :D
14:49:30 <oerjan> although that is nvg being pretentious about getting an .org, not me (canonical name is nvg.ntnu.no)
14:50:06 <ehird> my 'be all and end all' site has been in the works for a looong time now
14:50:23 <ehird> like late 2005 i decided i wanted a place to dump everything in a unified interface and all that jazz?
14:50:41 <ehird> and i've made dozens of half-baked attempts, given up on some half-way through... :-)
14:50:52 <ehird> eventually, elliotthird.org will work and have loads of stuff on..
14:53:30 <ehird> http://img.skitch.com/20080121-g12n6u3knnpn96pcjqmb22yi4d.png this is the current iteration's design right now, i don't think i can get it any more minimalistic
14:54:16 <ehird> It probably only looks nice on Safari/mac and Firefox/mac
14:54:21 <ehird> I dread to think what it looks like in IE
14:55:14 <oerjan> well the .png looks fine in IE ;)
14:55:50 <ehird> i should make the whole site an imagemapped png :-)
14:55:58 <ehird> so that everyone can have the lovely rendering and fonts of Safari/mac!
14:56:07 <ehird> better not use transparency though for fear of IE :D
14:56:29 <ehird> Asztal: im sure IE will love that
14:56:49 <Asztal> SVG with VML appended to the end!
14:57:17 <tejeez> no no no no no, use html and text!
14:57:29 <ehird> oerjan: you know i'd put a page up for you to test in IE but i don't have anywhere to do it, i'm still waiting to revamp elliotthird.org's server :P
14:57:38 <ehird> tejeez: now THAT's a weird idea!
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15:01:29 <ehird> i never miss the oppertunity to register a good nick
15:01:57 <Asztal> .. how many do you have?
15:03:11 <ehird> RodgerTheGreat: thanks :)
15:03:46 <ehird> RodgerTheGreat: the css is 51 short lines, including blank ones
15:04:00 <ehird> pretty good, i say
15:04:15 <ehird> also it scales pretty well with text upsizing/downsizing
15:04:18 <ehird> at least in safari
15:04:27 <ehird> the content area grows when you put it up, shoving the menu to the side
15:04:30 <ehird> and vise-versa for down
15:04:42 <RodgerTheGreat> the PHP parts of the source to my page are at least as long as the HTML parts, and my page displays properly on my palm pilot.
15:05:07 <ehird> bah, php. this is all going to be generated by some lisp or haskell code :)
15:05:17 <ehird> completely.. including the css
15:05:26 <ehird> 100% same structure of course
15:05:34 <ehird> just no fiddly html or css apart from in a DSL
15:05:39 <Asztal> my site looks better in lynx than in firefox.
15:05:49 <ehird> ah, i should try lynx
15:05:56 <ehird> it should work fine, my markup is completely cruft-free
15:06:09 <ehird> my only structure is:
15:06:26 <Asztal> as long as it's not DIV soup
15:06:34 <ehird> div#content { h1 "page title", ...content... }, div#info { h1 "Elliott Hird", ul#menu { ...menu items... } }
15:07:22 <ehird> hm, my site looks great in lynx
15:07:32 <ehird> the menu is at the bottom of the page, which is good because it means the content is at the top
15:07:43 <ehird> the code block is pushed to the left hand column, though, and is right below the second paragraph
15:07:46 <ehird> no blank line in between
15:07:48 <ehird> but there is one below
15:07:59 <ehird> there's nothing in my markup to say that should happen, so that's lynx' problem
15:08:45 <Asztal> is it just <p> and <pre>/<code> ?
15:09:08 <ehird> Asztal: <p>second paragraph</p><pre><code>the code</code></pre><p>third paragraph</p>
15:09:18 <ehird> (note: <pre><code> is a perfectly valid way of marking up code, it's the most sensible too)
15:09:41 <Asztal> that's how I do it too
15:11:01 <ehird> i might spontaneously decide to switch to html 4.01 without a doctype, in protest of the standards freaks :D
15:11:31 <ehird> i live by the motto of 'get some logically decent structure, add styling to your taste, done'
15:11:37 <RodgerTheGreat> I tend to do things the overly complicated way of replacing \n with <br>, etc
15:11:48 <ehird> RodgerTheGreat: that's semantically ugly though.
15:12:00 <RodgerTheGreat> it's more difficult but the presentation is more uniform cross platform
15:12:22 <ehird> <pre><code>CODE GOES HERE</code></pre>
15:12:26 <ehird> that is consistant
15:12:43 <RodgerTheGreat> no, the display of that construct is heavily dependent upon your browser
15:13:47 <Asztal> Isn't it good that a user agent can display the content in the most appropriate way for its platform?
15:14:45 <ehird> i have never seen <pre><code> display differently
15:14:59 <ehird> maybe you have linebreaks or indentation between <pre><code>, the code, and </code></pre>
15:15:02 <RodgerTheGreat> I have used browsers in my time that ignore one or both of those tags
15:15:39 <RodgerTheGreat> PalmScape, for one- many mobile browsers are guilty of this
15:15:57 <RodgerTheGreat> however, basic tags like <br> are pretty much universally supported
15:16:04 <ehird> broken browsers on palm os are >not< my concern.
15:16:22 <ehird> smartphones are very good at html nowadays.
15:16:28 <ehird> especially the iPhone and Nokia's
15:16:35 <ehird> well, iPhone just uses webkit
15:16:41 <ehird> actually nokia's is based on webkit too
15:17:00 <ehird> anyway, my design also works in lynx/(e)links
15:17:06 <ehird> so the only uncertainity is about IE/win really.
15:17:13 <ehird> and that's very much good enough for me
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15:18:01 <Asztal> I think it's simple enough that it *should* work... it depends how the info section is pushed to the side... is it floated to the right?
15:18:13 <Asztal> or maybe even to the left
15:18:25 <ehird> Asztal: would you like me to dump my html and css code?
15:18:41 <Asztal> do you not have IE to test it?
15:18:43 <ehird> actually, i'll combine them: replace the <link rel> with a <style type="text/css"> for the purposes of other people testing it too
15:18:45 <ehird> Asztal: i'm on a mac
15:18:53 <ehird> i have parallels but cba to set up windows on it
15:18:56 <Asztal> ah, I see. I'll test it for you, then
15:20:00 <ehird> Asztal: http://rafb.net/p/K9CmuT12.txt
15:20:03 <ehird> html and css combined
15:21:10 <ehird> just take a screenshot i guess
15:21:15 <ehird> i can usually work thiings out
15:21:29 <ehird> err, the link rel is still in there. heh
15:22:15 <ais523> ehird: it looks great in w3m too
15:22:22 <ehird> ais523: what about emacsw3m
15:23:48 <ais523> doesn't seem to be on here
15:23:57 <ais523> Emacs opened it in Firefox when I tested
15:24:02 <ais523> (and it looks good there, of course)
15:24:23 <ais523> and nothing in apropos either
15:24:33 <ehird> sudo apt-get install w3m-el
15:25:43 <ais523> although it took a while to get started because I take so long to type my wheel password...
15:27:16 <ais523> yes, it's fine on emacsw3m too
15:27:24 <ais523> looks exactly the same apart from the browser's UI
15:27:49 <Asztal> http://xs123.xs.to/xs123/08042/ehird2999.png
15:27:51 <ehird> and the lack of colours right? ;)
15:27:59 <Asztal> and wrapped: http://xs123.xs.to/xs123/08042/ehird1687.png
15:28:11 <ehird> Asztal: hey that's good!
15:28:18 <ehird> yeah i know about the gray bar when it wraps
15:28:24 <ehird> i can't think of a good solution.
15:28:30 <ehird> apart from crazy margin cap
15:28:54 * ais523 is having a go at the 2006 ICFP for fun
15:29:13 <ais523> it's over a year after the entry deadline, of course...
15:29:47 <oerjan> try the 2007 one, only about half a year overdue ;)
15:29:58 <ais523> the 2006 one looks more interesting
15:30:09 <ehird> you know, my website's design being all compatible doesn't matter that mcuh :P
15:30:28 <ehird> it's going to contain some craps of code like my esolang implementations, stuff about Lisp, and about 3 other things.
15:30:32 <ehird> most important site ever!
15:30:48 * ais523 doesn't even have a website
15:31:05 <ehird> i like having a place i can set a URL field to
15:31:13 <ehird> just my tag on the web
15:31:27 <Asztal> "URLs including the words "topsites" "toplist" "scientology" and "porn" will be banned automatically." - xs.to terms of service
15:32:42 <ehird> Asztal: cul^H^H^Hreligious discrimination! ;)
15:32:57 <Asztal> ais523: get a gopher site!
15:33:02 <ehird> (technically, the above is what i would respond to if it had said 'christian' or anything else, too)
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15:36:44 <ehird> Asztal: gopher is fun :P
15:45:12 <ais523> what computational class is CSS?
15:47:33 <ais523> it must be better than that, surely?
15:47:38 <ais523> the problem is likely the lack of loops
15:47:43 <ehird> ais523: how is it better?
15:47:47 <ehird> you have selectors
15:47:48 <Asztal> except in IE, whether javascript expressions can be used as property values
15:47:52 <ehird> and { property: value; }
15:47:57 <ehird> property is a symbol
15:48:03 <ais523> well, you can use CSS to create new elements on the page, even in standards-compliant browsers
15:48:05 <ehird> value is a colour value (rgb or hex) or a symbol
15:48:11 <ehird> ais523: you mean before: and after:
15:48:15 <ais523> I wonder if you're allowed to use it to create <STYLE> elements?
15:48:26 <ais523> Acid2 used it to create table cells IIRC
15:48:37 <ehird> well it's computationally useless
15:48:54 <Asztal> there are some interesting selectors in CSS3, such as :not() and :empty, but I can't see how you'd use them :)
15:49:11 <ehird> because CSS3 is well-known for being implemented
15:49:13 <Asztal> but there is this: http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/amazing.html
15:49:36 <ehird> heh that is pretty cool
15:49:52 <ehird> that's... not any demonstration of css's computational power
16:00:24 <ais523> CSS3 has some pretty interesting manipulate-the-document rules, but unfortunately nothing that would allow a new <style> element to be created
16:00:56 <ais523> except for importing content by URL, in which case it couldn't be changed
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16:06:38 <ehird> ais523: css3 is crap
16:06:42 <ehird> it solvse nothing useful
16:07:14 <ais523> there were some uses for it on Wikipedia that we found
16:07:26 <ais523> such as working out how to invent a not-first-section class
16:07:39 <ehird> gosh because that's so hard to do non-automatically
16:08:05 <ais523> the automation via CSS was more useful than either changing the software or persuading all editors to write it in
16:08:23 <ais523> OTOH, I can't remember off the top of my head exactly why it was important to have
16:08:33 <ehird> wikipedia is so full of useless processes :)
16:08:41 <ehird> it will soon be renamed to dilbertpedia
16:09:08 <ais523> if a process gets too useless or disruptive, normally someone will jump in and make fun of it and generally troll it
16:09:15 <ais523> after a while hopefully other people catch on
16:09:29 <ehird> ais523: yeah like the dreaded taboo of customizing the mediawiki installation
16:09:33 <ehird> instead, let's enslave all editors.
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16:09:38 <ehird> or use a silly css hack
16:09:45 <ehird> it's Holy Software, after all
16:10:31 <ais523> customising an installation can be hard when you're running svn unstable and updating frequently
16:11:19 <ais523> oh, I remember what it was now, we wanted message boxes to say 'article' if used in the first section and 'section' if used in a different section
16:12:12 <ais523> oh and hello slereah__
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16:13:03 <ehird> (LET ((#:G2102 1) (#:G2103 1)) (LET ((#:G2104 (EQUAL #:G2102 #:G2103))) (IF #:G2104 #:G2104 (OR (ERROR (FORMAT NIL "Test failed, expected ~S but got ~S" #:G2102 #:G2103))))))
16:13:12 <ehird> that's the expansion of my toy macro (test 1 1)
16:13:28 <ehird> right down to the expansion of "if"!
16:14:21 <oerjan> WHAT! But it is not referentially transparent! *gets carried away by people in white coats*
16:14:36 <ehird> oerjan: er, how so?
16:14:42 <ehird> it's only not referentially transparent if.. it fails
16:15:11 <oerjan> it does not always return the same value for the same input, does it?
16:15:29 <ehird> oerjan: (test 1 1) will always be T
16:15:39 <ehird> (test 1 2) will abort execution, etc
16:15:48 <oerjan> i was speaking about gensym
16:16:16 <ehird> oerjan: cons isn't either
16:16:42 <slereah__> If I replace "0" and "1" by True and False on my Post machine on Python, will it be faster?
16:16:56 <oerjan> it is if you throw away mutation...
16:17:08 <ehird> oerjan: Common Lisp requires mutation of cons pairs
16:17:21 <ehird> techncially you could make REPLACA and REPLACD copy ...
16:17:28 <ehird> but then they'd not be referentially transparent :P
16:18:17 <oerjan> slereah__: use Frue and Talse
16:19:00 <ehird> ^^^ NOT table for Frue/Talse system ^^^
16:19:32 <ehird> I have a question about FORMAT
16:19:46 <ehird> Is it turing complete? A bitwise cyclic tag shoudln't be too hard to write I think
16:20:02 <oerjan> i _know_ i have seen that discussed before
16:20:13 <oerjan> i just don't remember the answer
16:20:22 <ehird> there's a 99bob in it
16:20:35 <ehird> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-common-lisp-114.html
16:20:39 <oerjan> probably in this channel
16:20:46 <ehird> but there IS a (loop ...) in there
16:21:39 <ehird> "Seeing as Common Lisp supports object orientation, I was surprised that this was procedural. I don't know any Lisp, but I DO know Common Lisp has OOP. Allegro CL is a good example." (from a 99bob page) single-paradigm languages FOREVER!!112
16:22:14 <ehird> oerjan: Wait, you can write a BCT interpreter iin regexps.
16:24:10 <ehird> that's... rather silly :)\
16:24:45 <oerjan> repeating substitution might be
16:24:53 <oerjan> even if a single one isn't
16:24:59 <ehird> ahh, does repaeting substitution not count
16:25:43 <ais523> repeating substitution is multiple regexps
16:25:51 <ais523> the same one several times, in fact
16:25:56 <ais523> that's where the TC-ness comes from
16:26:12 <ais523> now a more interesting question is: is single substitution without /g Muriel-complete?
16:26:36 <ais523> that is, allow a regexp to substitute on itself, then allow the output to operate on itself, and so on
16:26:40 <ehird> i don't get bct's 'cyclic execution'
16:26:48 <ehird> does the program repeat from the beginning after execution?
16:27:27 <oerjan> isn't everything a ring, essentially
16:27:57 <oerjan> with a pointer into the current spot
16:28:26 <ehird> ok, right now how i'm coding it,
16:28:30 <ehird> if you give it the program
16:28:38 <ehird> it will take the 0, do somethiing with the data
16:30:22 <ais523> whenever a command is read from the start of a BCT program, the same command is appended to the end
16:30:31 <ais523> look at the Wiki Cyclic Tag example, for instance
16:31:09 <oerjan> "the commands are executed in cyclic sequence from left to right (the leftmost bit following next after the rightmost bit)"
16:31:28 <ehird> is what i said right?
16:32:19 <ais523> although the commands in BCT are 10 and 11 rather than just 1
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16:34:07 <ehird> ais523: if i want to insert a literal number 0
16:34:13 <ehird> \10 tries to get group 10
16:40:13 <ais523> it's just that saying my name doesn't trigger a notification for some reason
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16:40:27 <ais523> probably because I have visible bell turned on because the beep on this laptop is so annoying
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16:43:01 <ais523> grr... the 'Befunge' on shinh.golf.org seems to be 93 rather than 98
16:43:15 <ehird> ais523: befunge 98 is hideously complex
16:43:20 <ehird> besides, there's only one interpreter for it that works
16:49:14 <ehird> ais523: do you know?
16:50:28 <ais523> I have CCBI installed here
16:50:46 <ais523> and what's wrong with hideously complex esolangs?
16:51:23 <ehird> regexp question! :P
16:51:37 <graue> is perl ineligible for golf? it is hideously complex, after all
16:51:54 <graue> not to take sides or anything
16:52:23 <ehird> because unlike e.g. brainfuck
16:52:28 <ehird> it is not trivial to learn or implement
16:52:37 <ehird> and not really *that* more interesting, if you know -93
16:52:40 <ais523> it's not that hard to learn
16:52:42 <ehird> so: it's not popular.
16:52:46 <ais523> and I find it interesting
16:52:58 <ais523> have you seen my latest Anarchy Golf problem, by the way
16:53:04 <ais523> maybe Brainfuck will win this one
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16:53:37 <ais523> it would of course do better if they changed their EOF convention to something better for golfing
16:54:42 <ais523> my personal preference is EOF=(no change), which is decent for golfing but not as much as =0
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16:55:04 <ehird> main=interact reverse
16:55:40 <ehird> i'm pretty low down the list, though
16:56:08 <ehird> i'm going to make a sed one
16:56:16 <ehird> with the restriction that you can't have | in the text ;P
16:56:30 <ais523> oh, and I told you that recursive main is allowed in C
16:56:38 <ais523> I know it is because I used it for my C entry
16:56:46 <ehird> you can do it but its forbidden bythe standard
16:57:38 <ais523> it's only the C++ standard that forbids it, I'm pretty sure
16:57:47 <ehird> hmm: s/([^|])(.)(.*)$/$1$3\|$2/g
16:57:49 <ehird> why doesn't that work...
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17:00:08 * ais523 finally got UMIX compiled
17:00:31 <ais523> the program at the heart of the 2006 ICFP
17:00:47 <ais523> it needs double-bootstrapping to compile, and you have to write the interpreter yourself
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17:07:31 <ehird> what about my regexp group problem
17:08:48 <Asztal> I assume for this golf challenge that the program has to terminate? ;)
17:12:19 <Slereah> Is there a way to stop sys.stdin.read from requiring carriage return?
17:12:35 <ais523> ehird: that regexp shown above is in Perl syntax
17:12:38 <ehird> this is a console driver issue
17:12:43 <ais523> sed uses the original grep syntax
17:12:43 <ehird> ais523: not that one.
17:12:59 <ehird> ais523: i have things like \10
17:13:02 <ehird> but i want group \1
17:13:05 <ehird> in my replacements
17:13:55 <ais523> but it might be a different lowercase letter than g
17:14:09 <ehird> Reference to non-existent register 111 in replacement string [Condition of type CL-PPCRE:PPCRE-INVOCATION-ERROR]
17:14:37 <Slereah> CAT program on der Postenmachine : a:,:b;b:.:a
17:14:46 <ehird> ais523: http://paste.lisp.org/display/54642
17:17:12 <ais523> the \g{...} syntax is correct for inline backreferences
17:17:22 <ais523> I didn't realise that PCRE could be used for substitutions, though
17:17:27 <ais523> although I suppose it was inevitable
17:17:34 <ais523> you could try ${1}0, which is how it would be written in Perl
17:18:27 <ehird> [17:17:22] <ais523> I didn't realise that PCRE could be used for substitutions, though
17:18:29 <ehird> it always has been
17:18:41 <ehird> besides cl-ppcre dodesnt use pcre
17:23:50 <ais523> well my PCRE docs probably won't help you, then
17:25:20 <ehird> ais523: BCT question
17:25:25 <ehird> i hope that's correct
17:26:55 <ehird> ais523: actually, perl question
17:27:04 <ehird> what's the simplest way to make a subroutine like it's a perl -p block?
17:27:11 <ehird> i.e. entirely s/a/b/; statements
17:27:20 <ehird> takes one arg, performs the substitutions, returns
17:27:48 <ehird> (Somebody should think before speaking: 'There's a reason there's no obfuscated Perl contest: "everybody's a winner!".')
17:28:00 <ais523> while(<>){block} does a perl -p around the block
17:28:17 <ehird> ais523: no no that's not what i said
17:28:49 <ais523> what do you want, then
17:29:02 <ehird> myfunc("foo") -> "replcaed-foo"
17:29:09 <ehird> where myfunc contains s/a/b/; statements
17:29:18 <ehird> i can do my $foo = shift; $foo = s/... etc
17:29:21 <ehird> but that's verbosoooooose
17:29:33 <ais523> sub myfunc{local$_=shift;s/a/b;$_;}
17:30:00 <ais523> you can leave off the local if you don't mind clobbering the caller's $_
17:30:13 <ehird> local? isn't that.. DYNAMICALLY SCOPED?!
17:30:29 <ais523> local is like STASH/RETRIEVE in INTERCAL
17:30:39 <ais523> it stores the variable on its own stack, and restores it at the end of the block
17:30:52 <ehird> my is lexically scoped
17:31:01 <ais523> good point, I keep getting those muddled
17:31:09 <ehird> local is dynamically scoped, then
17:31:10 <ehird> ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!
17:31:24 <ais523> the fact that I have to resort to INTERCAL to make sense of Perl says something about either me or Perl, or possibly both
17:32:19 <ais523> it seems string-reverse can be done in 3 in GolfScript. I still haven't figured out how to do it at all...
17:32:35 <ehird> ais523: my bct interp is wrong i think
17:32:41 <ehird> #!perl sub step { local $_ = shift; s/0(.*)!.(.*)/${1}0!\2/; s/1(.)(.*)!1(.*)/$1${2}1!1\3\1/; s/1(.)(.*)!0(.*)/$1${2}1!0\3/; $_; } my $foo = "00111!101"; while (true) { print $foo, "\n"; my $new_foo = step($foo); if ($foo == $new_foo) { break; } $foo = $new_foo; }
17:32:58 <ehird> (yes, even 17 liners fit on one line! mwahaha!)
17:33:07 <ais523> not if there's a # at the start of it...
17:33:13 <ehird> this is a good pont
17:34:09 <ais523> you seem to be mixing the \ and $ syntax for replacements
17:34:19 <ais523> in Perl it's supposed to be $1 to replace group 1, although \1 works anyway
17:34:31 <ehird> does this even effect the program
17:34:35 <ehird> anyway replace \s with $s then
17:34:37 <ehird> i did that on my copy
17:35:55 <Slereah> a:>:b;b:>:c;c:>:d;d:>:e;e:>:f;f:>:g;g:>:h;h:@:i;i:j:0;j:<:k;k:@:l;l:m:1;m:<:n;n:@:o;o:p:2;p:<:q;q:@:r;r:s:3;s:<:t;t:@:u;u:v:4;v:<:w;w:@:x;x:y:5;y:<:z;z:@:aa;aa:bb:6;bb:<:cc;cc:@:dd;dd:7:7;0:<:1;1:<:2;2:<:3;3:<:4;4:<:5;5:<:6;6:<:7;7:.:a
17:36:09 <Slereah> + function for der BF interpreter
17:36:40 <ehird> I am about to create a wiki page called (QUOTE (QUOTE FOO))
17:36:42 <ehird> The ugliest URL ever!
17:37:26 <Slereah> I don't feel repulsed by it
17:37:50 <ais523> ehird: you need ^ at the start of the regexes and $ at the end
17:37:54 <ais523> otherwise they match at the wrong place
17:38:19 <ehird> it seems to do something now
17:38:46 <ehird> ais523: you deleted wikipedia's template:lowercase, can you show me what the original css-based version was? i want to make a page on the wiki that has a lowercase title :P
17:39:19 <ais523> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=wikipedia:User:One/Title
17:39:46 * ais523 tests: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=tests
17:39:54 <ais523> Konversation is expanding [[]] notation for me...
17:40:03 <ais523> either that or Freenode is
17:40:27 <ehird> konversation does that
17:40:28 <ais523> and that was an ugly nonportable hack, which is why it was banned from articles
17:40:36 <ehird> ais523: of course, but its fun
17:40:44 <ehird> omaegh WIKI IST DUWN
17:41:00 <ehird> when you do that submit'n th'ng
17:41:38 <ehird> apparently its because of my title stuff
17:41:43 <ehird> i must have said some offensive thiings!
17:43:20 <ais523> you can make do with something more semantically correct like <b style='...'>
17:43:20 <ehird> does it go away if i register
17:43:27 <ais523> you just have to use some other element
17:43:50 <ehird> <b id="title-override" class="topicon" style="display: block; float: left; position: absolute; left: 0; top: 0px; width: 98%; padding-top: 5px; display:none"><b style="display: block; background: white; font-size: 188%; padding-top: 0.5em; padding-bottom: 0.1em; position:relative; left:0.5em; margin-top:-0.2em;">qq</b></b>
17:44:07 <ais523> does that hit the spam filter or just misdisplay?
17:44:21 <ehird> no title replcaement, and you get </b> in the article
17:45:10 <graue> i think display: is blocked, or display:none is
17:45:49 <ais523> oh, and that code won't work because it depends on some of Wikipedia's sitewide stuff
17:45:55 <ehird> ais523: does it? damnit
17:45:58 <ais523> class="topicon" means something on Wikipedia but not on Esolang
17:46:08 <ais523> sorry for not remembering earlier
17:46:09 <ehird> ais523: is this actually possible on esolang?
17:46:14 <ehird> with tons of hacks :D
17:46:25 <ais523> yes, you can just copy the topicon code from Wikipedia
17:46:39 <ais523> I think it's on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=MediaWiki:Monobook.css, but that's from memory so I'm not sure
17:46:45 <ehird> ok what about the b problem
17:47:07 <ais523> you could just use an element that's naturally block and get rid of the displays
17:47:21 <ais523> the problem is that the naturally block elements all tend to do something that you'd have to cancel out
17:47:38 <ehird> and most will be blocked.
17:47:47 <ais523> and it isn't as if the title overwrite hack didn't fail on many browsers/font sizes anyway
17:47:53 <ais523> so I suggest just using {{wrongtitle}}
17:47:53 <ehird> here's my current code
17:47:56 <ehird> <b id="title-override" style=" position:absolute; z-index:100; top:10px; display: block !important; float: left; position: absolute; left: 0; top: 0px; width: 98%; padding-top: 5px; display:none"><b style="display: block; background: white; font-size: 188%; padding-top: 0.5em; padding-bottom: 0.1em; position:relative; left:0.5em; margin-top:-0.2em;">qq</b></b>
17:48:06 <ehird> the display:block !important is from the .topicon
17:48:11 <ehird> so the display:none is redundant, oddly.
17:48:16 <ehird> ais523: meh :) this is fun!
17:48:16 <ais523> yes, that's to override the display:none
17:48:24 <ais523> so that skins without topicon wouldn't display the override
17:48:32 <ais523> you can get rid of them both because they cancel each other out
17:48:44 <ehird> i have something now
17:48:48 <ehird> <b style="display: block; background: white; font-size: 188%; padding-top: 0.5em; padding-bottom: 0.1em; position:relative; left:0.5em; margin-top:-0.2em;">qq
17:48:53 <ehird> appears bold in the title place
17:48:58 <ehird> and </b> is still there
17:49:17 <ehird> mediawiki doesn't like nested <b>s
17:49:38 <ais523> of course, because it's mixed up with the whole ''' nonsense
17:50:51 <ehird> ok i now have the title working BUT
17:50:55 <ehird> 1. it's a bit too low
17:51:05 <ehird> 2. some of the very top pixels of the previous title are visible
17:51:44 <ais523> you have to keep tweaking the numbers due to the presence/absence of sitenotices
17:51:53 <ais523> I used to have great fun trying to keep it in the right place on Wikipedia
17:53:59 <ehird> <b id="title-override" style=" position:absolute; z-index:100; top:10px; display: block; float: left; position: absolute; left: 0; top: 0px; width: 98%; padding-top: 5px; font-weight: normal;"><i style="font-style: normal; display: block; background: white; font-size: 188%; padding-top: 0.3em; padding-bottom: 0.3em; position:relative; left:0.5em; margin-top:-0.2em;">qq</i></b>
17:54:11 <ais523> I'd better also point out that it has been known to display differently for logged-in and not-logged-in users
17:54:16 <ais523> due to them having slightly different UI
17:54:44 <ehird> ... shit, i'd better log in then
17:55:22 <ehird> ais523: so when is there going to be an official mediawiki way of doing this
17:56:26 <ais523> {{DISPLAYTITLE}} is in the most recent versions (which is what {{lowercase}} uses now), but it's deliberately restricted to not allow a page's title to not be a legal link to the page
17:59:22 <ehird> does the esolang wikik hvae that?
17:59:33 <ais523> you could try. Syntax is {{DISPLAYTITLE:real title}}
17:59:44 <ais523> but remember that the real title must form a valid link to the page
17:59:48 <ehird> answer: no, it doesn't
17:59:55 <ais523> so it's mostly only useful for lowercasing the first letter
18:00:01 <ais523> and it doesn't work on preview
18:00:12 <ais523> but if it shows literally on the page it must be because it isn't installed
18:07:19 <Slereah> Now, to castrate the final 1's.
18:08:07 <Slereah> (The BF interpreter will mark the current instruction by starting the byte with 1, so first, to cut off all the eventual 1's)
18:09:09 <ais523> Slereah: what projet is it that you're working on at the moment?
18:11:23 <Slereah> Brainfuck interpreter on the Post machine
18:11:23 <Slereah> Which is pretty much like the one on the Turing machine, except more annoying.
18:11:43 <Slereah> But then again, it is more pleasing in some areas.
18:12:03 <ais523> The Post machine is the P''-like one, isn't it?
18:12:46 <Slereah> Such as the +/- instructions, which is barely two lines long.
18:12:49 <Slereah> It's a minimalist Turing machine.
18:13:09 <ehird> Behold: qq, the craziest language ever! (Warning: exaggerations may be present) http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Qq
18:13:16 <ehird> The question, of course, is: is it turing complete?
18:13:19 <Slereah> There's print 0, print 1, left, right, and go in state a if one, b if 0
18:13:32 <Slereah> (I just used @ to flip the bit of the cell)
18:13:45 <Slereah> It's pretty much Boolfuck with states.
18:14:43 <ais523> "Both arguments must be quoted programs. They are munged together."
18:14:52 <ehird> ais523: concatentated
18:14:52 <ais523> that line reminds me of TURKEY BOMB for some reason
18:14:58 <ehird> i updated the page
18:15:28 <Slereah> There was a page on evaluation?
18:15:30 <ehird> here's a cat-one-character program:
18:15:51 <ais523> I think ehird refers to the second change he made to Qq
18:18:42 <ehird> i now have commands 0-8
18:18:48 <ehird> got any suggestions for a last one to make it 9? ;)
18:18:56 <ehird> (by the way, it intentionally doesn't have a while loop)
18:19:02 <ehird> (i don't know if it's turing complete without one though)
18:20:13 <ehird> new cat-one program:
18:25:17 <ehird> ais523: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/1cnis was this what you used for the proof?
18:25:41 <ais523> it's what I was going to use for the proof
18:25:48 <ais523> but I've since changed my mind since I realised it didn't work
18:26:03 <ais523> unless you can find some way to generate a string in it that grows as 2^2^n
18:26:17 <ehird> what did you use in the end?
18:26:21 <ehird> just a mess of perl right?
18:27:05 <ais523> the actual initial condition has no program that generates it
18:27:08 <ais523> the Perl is an approximation
18:27:19 <ais523> but I didn't manage to run it start to finish, because 2^2^n blows up so quickly
18:27:41 <ehird> weird, a url service that allows irc urls: turl.ca/esoteric
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18:29:28 -!- ehird` has set topic: What is the topic of this title? Is the soul greater than the hum of its parts? LOGS COLON HTTP://TUNES.ORG/~NEF/LOGS/ESOTERIC?!!!!!.
18:29:56 <ehird`> #esoteric is named after the people in it, rather than the things we discuss.
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18:34:23 <ehird> i am a buggy IRP implementation
18:34:40 * ais523 listens to ehird roaring
18:34:47 <ehird> -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-
18:35:03 * ais523 shrinks away in horror
18:35:33 <ehird> -OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-
18:36:11 -!- ehird has quit (Client Quit).
18:36:22 -!- ehird has joined.
18:36:55 <ehird> (CONS 'IRP (CONS 'IMPLEMENTATION NIL)))
18:37:39 <ehird> (QUOTE (AH THE DAYS OF YORE. LIMITED PUNCTUATION AND UPPERCASE MESSAGES. SURROUNDED IN PARENTHESES.))
18:44:40 <ehird> (LISP-NATURE-P SLEREAH) ===> NIL
18:45:11 <Slereah> Hm. When I print chr(n>126), it comes out as ?, but there's no problem in a string.
18:45:30 <ehird> n>126 is gonna be 0 or 1
18:45:50 <ais523> it could be that your terminal shows unknown characters as ?
18:45:57 <Slereah> Oh, I think it's actually because I use sys.stdout.
18:46:08 <Slereah> Print doesn't have any problem
18:46:19 <Slereah> stdout.write doesn't seem to recognise them above 126
18:47:33 <ehird> ais523: (WINDOWS-P SLEREAH) ===> T
18:47:50 -!- ehird has quit ("Pong timeout").
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18:48:13 <Slereah> But I'm a little disappointed so far
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19:03:19 -!- slereah__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:07:00 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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19:12:38 <graue> it is nice to have such a vulgar sounding quine, isn't it
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19:14:30 <ais523> nice to see it still works...
19:14:48 -!- ehird has quit (Client Quit).
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19:15:12 <ehird> I am really honestly testing.
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19:15:32 <ehird> Asztal: I AM PING YOU, NOW PING ME
19:15:43 <Slereah> Never have I been more angry or orange!
19:16:27 <Slereah> Well, now I have mah BF code formatted for good use.
19:16:34 <ais523> !ul (You can request to be pinged like this)S
19:16:37 <EgoBot> You can request to be pinged like this
19:17:33 <ehird> (btw, is EgoBot open source?)
19:18:00 <ais523> !ul (:aS(:^S^:)Sa:):^S^:(:aS(:^S^:)Sa:)
19:18:11 <ais523> and yes, the source is in the Esolang file repository
19:18:44 <ais523> !ul (:aS(:^S^:)Sa:):^S^:(:aS(:^S^:)Sa:)
19:19:59 <ais523> ehird: no fair putting in infinite loops, you've crashed the Underload interpreter
19:20:07 <ehird> ais523: i am brilliant
19:20:22 <ehird> i can even do this
19:20:27 <ehird> and get all programs until !ul )
19:20:30 <ais523> !daemon ul bf http://pastebin.ca/raw/367774
19:20:39 <ais523> I killed the daemon because it was stuck in a loop
19:20:46 <ais523> !ul (:aS(:^S^:)Sa:):^S^:(:aS(:^S^:)Sa:)
19:20:49 <EgoBot> (:aS(:^S^:)Sa:):^S^:(:aS(:^S^:)Sa:)
19:20:51 <ais523> seems to be working now, though
19:21:19 <ais523> !ul (:aS(:^S^:)Sa:):^S^:(:aS(:^S^:)Sa:)
19:21:23 <EgoBot> (:aS(:^S^:)Sa:):^S^:(:aS(:^S^:)Sa:)
19:22:11 <ais523> stop trying to break EgoBot!
19:22:29 <EgoBot> yes, stop trying to break me!
19:23:37 <EgoBot> Actually please break me
19:23:46 <Slereah> !ul (A STONE HEAVY ENOUGH TO BREAK THE STACK)
19:24:14 <Slereah> Why am I suddenly picturing a stack like a stack of pancakes?
19:24:42 <ehird> !ul (a)(~(a)*~:^):^
19:24:51 <ehird> look at me i wrote that all by myself
19:25:06 <ehird> egobot should be crunching memory right now...
19:25:35 <ehird> ok let's try this:
19:25:48 <ais523> !daemon ul bf http://pastebin.ca/raw/367774
19:25:59 <ais523> and stop trying to overflow its memory
19:25:59 <ehird> i'll set it up again, once i break it one more time
19:26:48 <ais523> !daemon ul bf http://pastebin.ca/raw/367774
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19:34:05 <ehird> !ul (:aSSfoo):aSSfoo
19:34:40 <ehird> !ul (:aSS Hello! I am the helpful, friendly, Underload introduction program. Would you like a snake?):aSS Hello! I am the helpful, friendly, Underload introduction program. Would you like a snake?
19:34:43 <EgoBot> (:aSS Hello! I am the helpful, friendly, Underload introduction program. Would you like a snake?):aSS Hello! I am the helpful, friendly, Underload introduction program. Would you like a snake?
19:35:40 <Asztal> !ul (:aSShello):aSSgoodbye
19:37:48 <Slereah> Stop talking about asses people.
19:38:17 <ehird> !ul (:aSSification):aSSification
19:38:21 <EgoBot> (:aSSification):aSSification
19:38:31 <ehird> !ul (:aSSes, people.):aSSes, people.
19:38:35 <EgoBot> (:aSSes, people.):aSSes, people.
19:39:09 -!- ehird has quit ("Pong timeout").
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19:39:39 <Slereah> What's the secret code for unlambda?
19:39:57 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
19:39:59 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
19:40:31 <EgoBot> ./unlambda/unlambda: file ./tmp/egobot.ZV7cPa: parse error
19:40:48 -!- ehird has quit (Client Quit).
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19:41:30 <Slereah> !unlambda ````.b.u.t.t````` kisses
19:45:28 <Slereah> !unlambda ``````kiss``````.m.e. .I.'.m. ````.I.r.i.s.hi
19:55:38 <Slereah> How does EgoBot output exactly? Does he wait for the program to end?
19:58:31 <ehird> try an infinite output loop
20:00:22 <ehird> !bf_txtgen Default text?!
20:01:10 <Slereah> !unlambda ```sii``s`k`d`.xr``sii
20:01:11 <EgoBot> 130 ++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>--.>>+++.+.-----.>+++++.---------.++++++++.<<++++.>>.<++++.>++++.----.<<<-----.>+. [953]
20:01:15 <EgoBot> new_info: Cannot allocate memory
20:05:55 <ehird> wow, EgoBot only handles one channel
20:08:53 -!- ehird has quit ("Pong timeout").
20:09:09 -!- ehird has joined.
20:09:21 <ehird> do you accept my testing
20:16:34 <ehird> egobot's code is so sucky
20:16:41 <ehird> i thought it was a robust, plugin-based architechture of a bot!
20:17:05 -!- und3f has joined.
20:22:50 -!- Slereah has set topic: What is the topic of this title? Is the soul greater than the hum of its parts? What's for dinner? LOGS COLON HTTP://TUNES.ORG/~NEF/LOGS/ESOTERIC?!!!!!.
20:24:12 -!- ehird has set topic: What is the topic of this title? Is the soul greater than the hum of its parts? What's for dinner? LOGS COLON HTTP://TUNES.ORG/~NEF/LOGS/ESOTERIC?!!!!! WHAT IS THE SQUARE ROOT OF NINE??! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
20:25:23 * SimonRC feels suspicious about AOP.
20:26:57 <SimonRC> It seems like it needs magic to get the aspects to play together
20:27:24 <SimonRC> Aspect-Oriented Programming
20:28:09 <SimonRC> you can add "aspects" to classes, which magically jump in before/during/after method calls and fiddle stuff
20:28:23 <ehird> SimonRC: isn't that CLOS' :before/:after methods?
20:28:26 <ehird> i think there's an :inner too
20:28:49 <SimonRC> it allows you to collect together stuff that would otherwise be scattered around, supposedly
20:28:53 <ehird> CLOS isn't the best example of something not being weird, crazy magic, is it :|
20:29:01 <ehird> however i have seen them used quite a lot
20:29:04 <ehird> and seem quite nice
20:29:26 <SimonRC> the trouble is, it sounds as hard as (say) monad composition
20:30:26 <SimonRC> I mean, hard for the computer
20:31:05 <ehird> if it was it wouldn't be in CLOS
20:31:20 <ehird> CLOS is what you could call... very meticulously hand-crafted
20:38:37 <EgoBot> bf/, glass/, linguine/
20:41:45 <und3f> I want introduce my esoteric languages interpreter =) If someone has time plz take a look at it and say about lacks
20:41:53 -!- progn has joined.
20:42:09 <und3f> Can i poste link here?
20:42:24 <progn> what's the language.
20:42:28 <progn> Wait, let me guess
20:42:45 <progn> frainbuck is my compiler :|
20:42:46 <und3f> brainfuck., ook, spoon, hq9+, whitespace
20:42:57 <und3f> But we work on it =)
20:43:03 <progn> und3f: who is 'we'
20:43:13 <progn> and are you aware those already have excellent quality interpreters already
20:43:19 <Slereah> A team for a BF interpreter?
20:43:33 <progn> Slereah: no! it's loooads of esolang interpreters; he's awesome - can't you see?
20:43:35 <Slereah> In what is it written, Malbolge?
20:43:43 <progn> Slereah: Let me guess: VB or Delphi
20:44:16 <progn> yeah, i agree (even though i am ehird)
20:44:54 <Slereah> Brainfuck interpreters on usual languages aren't very challenging.
20:45:27 <progn> Slereah: I doubt he's looking for a challenge
20:46:11 <progn> a sourceforge project.
20:46:14 <progn> und3f: you are RIDICULOUS
20:46:34 <progn> .. kind of crappy name too, don't you think :|
20:46:59 <Slereah> Heh. Reminds me of an idea I had once.
20:47:00 <progn> und3f: 1. they already have perfectly good interps 2. what is the point of yours 3. why is it so organized, formal, have a team, soruceforge project
20:47:03 <progn> it's an esolang interp :|
20:47:17 <Slereah> An interpreter that could support many languages. AT ONCE :O
20:47:19 <progn> und3f: let me look atyour interps. give me a second.
20:47:31 <Slereah> Converting the data structures would probably be horrible
20:48:31 <progn> your bf interp is multiple files
20:48:44 <progn> and you misspelt 'memory' as 'memmory'
20:48:49 <progn> so now your whole class is misnamed
20:49:26 <progn> it preparses but not [...]
20:49:53 <progn> let me try its mandelbrot.b performance.
20:50:13 <progn> because writing a bignum lib is so hard
20:50:54 <progn> This is brilliant, the hq9+ interp is PARSED XD XD XD
20:51:10 <progn> its not even valid
20:51:13 <progn> the 99bob output is wrong
20:51:31 <Slereah> 99 Bob, drinking 99 bottles of beer?
20:51:44 <progn> Slereah: nope: it says "0 bottles of beer"..."take one down, pass it around"
20:51:55 <progn> und3f: was that supposed to mean something
20:52:03 * Slereah takes down 0 bottles of beer
20:52:07 <und3f> i mean show me scrip
20:52:19 <progn> und3f: start making sense?
20:52:36 <Slereah> Stop being a meanie progn ":0).
20:52:49 <progn> the interps are really bad
20:53:04 <Slereah> So are mine, but I don't see you ranting!
20:53:28 <progn> well yeah because the fact that he has a team, a sourceforge project: it kinda puts your hopes up for some decent interpreters, doesn't it
20:53:58 <Slereah> Especially a brainfuck interpreter.
20:54:07 <Slereah> Something you can hack together in an afternoon.
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20:54:24 <progn> with that amount of 'baggage' around it, you expect something more than the most basic
20:54:37 <progn> we do get lots of fun things though...like
20:54:39 <progn> return "Unknow error";
20:55:14 <progn> which is basically brainfuck
20:55:15 <Slereah> You have to like, replace them with BF symbols.
20:55:24 <progn> its an entirely seperate implementation they have
20:55:34 <progn> written in a different style too
20:55:56 <progn> they have a brainfuck interpreter, AND an ook interpreter, and they both look very different
20:56:08 <Slereah> Well, you've got to admire the boldness.
20:56:31 <Slereah> I suppose the HQ9+ interpreter is a thousand lines long.
20:56:56 <progn> no but its 99 bottles of beer is wrong.
20:57:16 <SimonRC> it depends on the project aims...
20:57:30 <progn> SimonRC: the parse tree is entirely hq9 specific
20:57:42 <progn> they basically get rid of non hq9+ chars, then change them into helloWorldOp
20:57:44 <SimonRC> if the aim is to learn compiling, then maybe that is a good starting point
20:57:51 <progn> (it's not a compiler)
20:58:05 <progn> SimonRC: the aim is to 'implement a lot of esolangs in one interpreter'
20:58:12 <SimonRC> ok, if the aim is to learn interpreting, then maybe that is a good starting point
20:58:22 <progn> Heh, it doesn't even compile
20:58:46 <Slereah> You could probably do BF-Ook-H9Q+ on the same file.
20:58:58 <Slereah> I don't know much of Spoon and Whitespace, so I can't really say.
20:59:09 <progn> spoon is ANOTHER syntax for BF
20:59:16 <progn> want to bet it also has a seperate interpreter?
21:00:14 <und3f> progn, man. You have made 3 stupid prediction. Have not you still understand that you are wrong againe?
21:00:17 <Slereah> Hm. There's an ESCO link on the Whitespace page
21:00:47 <ehird> Slereah: they added it, obviously
21:00:55 <ehird> und3f: and i've been right on all my other predictions
21:01:02 <ehird> you *did* implement ook seperately from brainfuck
21:01:05 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:01:18 <SimonRC> oerjan: hi, and welcome to the argument
21:01:21 <und3f> ehird, no, idiot, it does
21:02:38 <ehird> und3f: it does what?
21:02:42 <ehird> compile? because no, it doesn't
21:02:49 <und3f> ehird, do you _really_ knows c++? Just take a look at emulator class...
21:03:48 <ehird> oerjan: what does?
21:03:52 <ehird> because it most definately doesn't
21:04:11 <ehird> g++ -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I.. -I../include -I/opt/local//include -Wall -g -O2 -MT escoconf.o -MD -MP -MF .deps/escoconf.Tpo -c -o escoconf.o escoconf.cpp
21:04:12 <ehird> ../include/getopt.h:155: error: declaration of C function ‘int getopt()’ conflicts with
21:04:22 <ehird> /usr/include/unistd.h:422: error: previous declaration ‘int getopt(int, char* const*, const char*)’ here
21:04:47 <Asztal> Slereah: I'd like to complain.
21:05:01 <Slereah> You want to complain? Look at these shoes!
21:05:45 <und3f> ehird, i think that you have curved hands. Nobody has not such problems.
21:05:59 <oerjan> if you complain nothing happens, you might as well not bother.
21:06:06 <ehird> und3f: Maybe it's because I'm using OS X. but of course software only runs on one platform
21:12:09 <und3f> ehird, i think that esco could be compiled on OS X is there is gcc compiler for it.
21:12:18 <ehird> i am using gcc, obviously
21:13:30 <und3f> What is your version of gcc?
21:13:45 <ehird> 4.0.1, of course. And this isn't a gcc problem.
21:13:54 <ehird> This is a problem with system headers and you not knowing what POSIX defines them to contain
21:13:58 <ehird> And therefore getting a conflict
21:14:01 <und3f> This is glibc problem
21:14:25 <ehird> ergo: go by posix, not glibc
21:17:40 <oerjan> Slereah: what's the point of all those redirections, wouldn't it be just as easy to fix the links?
21:18:31 <Slereah> Well, some are mentioned in more than one article!
21:18:40 <Slereah> So it was marginally easier
21:18:42 <ehird> anyone know anything regarding the turing-completeness of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Qq?
21:21:43 -!- progn has quit ("Lost terminal").
21:25:27 <und3f> ehird, try to delete #include <getopt.h> from escoconf.cpp
21:26:05 * Slereah doesn't even remember how to use GCC.
21:26:07 <und3f> It would not work propertly with args
21:26:17 <Slereah> I do enough C in class, I don't need any more!
21:26:56 <ehird> Slereah: funny, s/C/lisp/ and you get the opinions of quite a lot of people doing computer science
21:27:26 <Slereah> Well, I don't do computer science.
21:27:58 * ehird does the 'sed 's/^#include <getopt.h>$//' escoconf.cpp >
21:27:58 <ehird> tmp&&mv tmp escoconf.cpp '
21:28:02 <Slereah> And since they don't teach us much in the way of computers, C isn't a pleasant language.
21:28:11 <ehird> und3f: now, obviously, you have errors about e.g. getopt_long not being there.
21:28:54 <und3f> ehird, now add #include <unistd.c>
21:29:56 <ehird> und3f: you already had that. anyway.
21:30:23 <und3f> ehird, i don't think so
21:31:04 <Slereah> Man, we're doing so much mechanics this semester.
21:31:43 <ehird> the first person to implement a real qq cat program wins 23497234982374982374 epoints
21:32:38 <oklopol> so many points it was actually worth the shot
21:33:05 <und3f> ehird, if [ $(grep unistd escoconf.cpp)]; then echo YOU HAVE;else echo "YOU HAVE NOT";fi
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21:33:25 <ehird> und3f: i added it anyway
21:33:31 <ehird> and i can code shell scripts for myself thanks.
21:33:35 <ehird> and like i said, the asme thing.
21:33:49 <ehird> oklopol: mmmnope, maybe you should read the spec :P
21:33:54 <Slereah> The Qq article lacks examples.
21:34:02 <und3f> no. unistd has implementions of getopt_long
21:34:09 <ehird> for a start, oklopol, that contains characters other than 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, (, )
21:34:14 <und3f> i just like POSIX implemention more
21:34:29 <ehird> und3f: Nope, sorry, you're wrong.
21:34:42 <ehird> because it doesn't.
21:34:46 <und3f> just read man for getopt_long
21:34:54 <ehird> it is not in unistd.h
21:34:59 <ehird> i know more about my system than you do, thanks
21:35:28 <ehird> Slereah: there is only one qq program right now
21:35:44 <ehird> which reads one character in and prints it out.
21:35:45 <und3f> You system have no standard C libraries?
21:36:04 <ehird> und3f: um yes it does. BSD ones.
21:37:06 -!- und3f has left (?).
21:38:24 <ehird> Slereah: i added a one-character cat example and an explanation to the wiki page
21:39:53 <oerjan> ehird: er, should 7 be 5 perhaps?
21:40:29 <oerjan> so 0 is needed to evaluate arguments
21:40:35 <ehird> oerjan: pretty much yeah
21:40:54 <ehird> so any program is going to have a lot of strange 0 magic
21:41:37 <ehird> i updated the spec
21:41:40 <ehird> specifically, 0s spec
21:41:45 <ehird> which still referenced a quoted program
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21:42:58 <oerjan> "all the values of the second quoted program" - how is that determined?
21:43:23 <ehird> oerjan: ((prog)(prog)...)
21:43:32 <ehird> or ( (prog) ( prog) (prog ) ), ofc
21:43:35 <ehird> since whitespace doesn't matter.
21:44:02 <ehird> oerjan: I don't know whether using an integer instead of (prog) should make that the literal value or trigger an error
21:44:08 <ehird> I think trigger an error, for more difficulty
21:45:01 <Asztal> so n becomes (0 1(n)) ?
21:46:19 <Asztal> I believe I've misunderstood it
21:46:29 * Asztal reads "How it works" section, which he just discovered
21:46:36 <ehird> Asztal: here's a program to print out a
21:46:55 <ehird> it works fine because you don't need the arguments evaluated
21:47:03 <ehird> if you wanted to do it the hard way, you can do:
21:47:15 <ehird> Slereah__; yes on the wiki page
21:48:02 <oerjan> hm ... technically the empty program is legal but cannot be quoted...
21:48:42 <slereah__> Is 0 like an anti-lazy function or something?
21:48:51 <ehird> oerjan: shall i make the null program illegal or quotes be able to take nothing
21:48:57 <ehird> Slereah__: otherwise your arguments won't be evaluated
21:49:10 <ehird> if you want to pass the results of command X into command Y: Y(X) won't work
21:49:17 <ehird> it'll call Y with the argument: the quoted program (X)
21:49:25 <ehird> 0 Y ((X)) will, though
21:49:35 <oerjan> must each top-level expression return exactly one value?
21:49:38 <ehird> and, to pass the literal quoted program (X) when using 0:
21:49:54 <ehird> Slereah__: because you can pass multiple arguments
21:50:01 <ehird> so: 0 COMMAND ((ARG) (ARG) ...)
21:50:10 <ehird> oerjan: that seems reasonable to me? i think?
21:50:20 <ehird> oerjan: note that you can't have multiple toplevel expressions, *really*
21:50:25 <ehird> you can only have one toplevel function call
21:51:05 <oerjan> how is, say the expression ((1 1) (1 2)) evaluated?
21:51:14 <ehird> oerjan: depends what you mean by expression
21:51:17 <ehird> do you mean putting that in a file?
21:51:24 -!- Slereah has quit (Connection timed out).
21:51:26 <ehird> well, nothing happens
21:51:45 <ehird> because you're using a quoted program as a command integer
21:52:28 <oerjan> your spec does not say the integer found cannot be in parentheses
21:52:53 <oerjan> i interpreted it as depth searching
21:52:57 <ehird> oerjan: yeah good point
21:53:01 <ehird> it's program quoting
21:53:14 <ehird> like underload or Joy
21:53:19 <oerjan> so a program is always of the form n arg1 ... argn
21:53:54 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Qq
21:54:03 <ehird> null program allowed, just in ''program'
21:54:14 <oerjan> and the second argument of 0 is not really a quoted program, but a quoted _list_ of programs
21:54:29 <ehird> but in reality it IS a quoted program
21:54:32 <ehird> just used as a list :)
21:56:00 <ehird> oerjan: updated spec.
21:56:24 <ehird> i doubt that (...) as first element evaluation rule will ever be used, actually
21:56:27 <ehird> it's just to be consistent
21:56:33 <slereah__> The hard thing seems to be creating new expressions that aren't integers
21:56:43 <ehird> slereah__: you can't
21:56:47 <ehird> well, you can concatentate them
21:56:54 <ehird> and you can generate commands with the currying 8
21:56:57 <ehird> but apart from that you can't
21:57:49 <oerjan> (...) as first element is not allowed by the syntax spec
21:57:49 <ehird> slereah__: why's that a problem?
21:58:17 <slereah__> My vague ideas requires to use those integers for something.
21:59:05 <slereah__> Wouldn't a program eventually shrinks to nothing if every functions can't return more than one integer?
21:59:22 <ehird> the idea is: do looping in the style of underload
21:59:56 <ehird> eh, see underload wiki page
22:00:14 <slereah__> Well, it's full of Underload's examples.
22:00:28 <slereah__> It's got a nice stack, a function to double elements and all!
22:01:04 <ehird> i had a stack at first
22:01:07 <ehird> but i made it more awesomer
22:05:03 <ehird> oerjan: based on hunches: do you think qq is turing complete or not?
22:05:52 <ehird> slereah__: possibly, in underload style.
22:06:08 <oerjan> for one thing i don't see how the result of the 8 command could ever be used except for the initial (...) case
22:06:50 <ehird> oerjan: like this: 0 0((8 ...) (1 ((...args...))))
22:07:02 -!- ehird has quit ("Pong timeout").
22:07:18 -!- ehird has joined.
22:08:34 <ehird> oerjan: would an implementation help :)
22:08:45 <oerjan> my next problem is i see no way of duplicating values
22:08:50 <ehird> oerjan: -- in Common Lisp, of course, so I hope you have SBCL. or CLISP. or Allegro CL or something
22:08:58 <ehird> and, oerjan, perhaps by using munging?
22:09:27 <oerjan> munging won't create more copies than you started with
22:10:35 <ehird> oerjan: ok, should i add a command taking one quoted program and returning it munged with itself?
22:12:45 <ehird> slereah__: i also have 10
22:12:47 <ehird> and 72346827346234
22:13:03 <ehird> oerjan: all commands are about to shift o ne value :)
22:13:31 <slereah__> Only if you want to sell out and use values above 9!
22:13:56 <ehird> slereah__: well, now i have 0-9
22:14:00 <ehird> but all commands have been shifted :)
22:14:03 <ehird> oerjan: there you go.
22:15:27 <oerjan> ok my hunch now changes to: i don't know :)
22:17:13 <ehird> oerjan: but you THINK...
22:18:06 <oerjan> i think a loop may now be possible
22:18:10 <slereah__> I don't envy the guy who will write an interpreter on that
22:18:53 <ehird> oerjan: my only problem seems to be saving a value for later
22:19:04 <oerjan> not sure about more complicated structures
22:19:28 <oerjan> well the functional way is to keep passing it as argument
22:20:51 <oerjan> slereah__: doesn't look that hard. needs to allocate new integers in 9, i think
22:22:10 <oerjan> unless you mean the guy who will write an interpreter _in_ qq :)
22:22:11 -!- slereah__ has quit (Connection reset by peer).
22:22:26 -!- slereah__ has joined.
22:22:46 <oerjan> oerjan> unless you mean the guy who will write an interpreter _in_ qq :)
22:23:04 <ehird> oerjan: yes, 9 is curryinng
22:23:09 <ehird> so you have to cons yourself a lambda.
22:23:42 <oerjan> ehird: um, i mean actually assigning an integer to it
22:24:48 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
22:25:08 <slereah__> Hm. 7 (0 6((5))) would work. If you only typed in 007.
22:27:10 <oerjan> slereah__: you need a 0 first
22:27:27 <oerjan> arguments are not evaluated otherwise
22:27:51 <ehird> i'm writing an interp now btw.
22:28:09 <oerjan> i think (0) should be (1 0)
22:28:22 <ehird> (0) is most definately invalid yes
22:29:16 <oerjan> hm that could be statically determined...
22:29:55 <oerjan> no the (0) could be a quoted program list
22:30:01 -!- graue has quit ("Leaving").
22:30:11 <oerjan> so it is possible in some positions
22:30:44 <ehird> oerjan: question about 8
22:30:49 <ehird> does it help turingcompleteness?
22:30:59 <oerjan> ok, (0) cannot be used for anything
22:31:37 <slereah__> Are the items in the list of a 0 only evaluated once?
22:32:17 <oerjan> ehird: it would help using integers as integers
22:32:45 <ehird> oerjan: 8 is the 'if' btw
22:32:50 <oerjan> so if TC depended on using integers for data, yes
22:32:54 <slereah__> Ah shit. My border-one's deleting seems to be screwed up
22:33:15 <oerjan> (qua integers, not commands)
22:34:46 <slereah__> oerjan only writes in Blaise Pascal
22:36:19 <slereah__> Hm. I type in èèèè, and get 8 chars on the tape.
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22:44:04 <Slereah> Seems è is actually two chars under what I have.
22:44:26 <Slereah> Which would explain all those ?
22:44:27 <ehird> ((listp (car p)) (run (cons (run (car p)) (cdr p))))
22:44:27 <ehird> (else (apply (elt commands (car p)) (cdr p)))))
22:44:32 <ehird> hmm, sorry for the flood
22:44:37 <ehird> but that's a pretty small qq evaluator :-)
22:44:51 <ehird> once parsed into a form like: (0 7 ((6))), i.e. a lisp list
22:46:20 -!- slereah__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:47:46 <oerjan> i think you could refine the syntax somewhat
22:48:18 <ehird> oerjan: why? it's beautiful :P
22:48:27 <ehird> it will result in unlambda-style elegance when big programs are written
22:48:30 <oerjan> i mean (0) can be disallowed
22:48:39 <ehird> well, it's disallowed at runtime
22:48:46 <ehird> on the principle that the arity is wrong
22:48:50 <ehird> but: with curried ones etc
22:48:52 <ehird> you never know the arity
22:49:03 <ehird> halting-problem parsing
22:51:40 <oerjan> things like (m (n)) are illegal though
22:52:25 <oerjan> because the (n) would be a quoted program list, so n is not allowed as a prog
22:52:47 <ehird> it's a quoted program doing: m called with the quoted program n
22:53:07 <oerjan> but n (an integer) is not a legal quoted program
22:53:19 <ehird> n could be a command.
22:53:38 <oerjan> but then it should be (m ((n)))
22:53:45 <ehird> that only applies to 0
22:53:51 <ehird> you can pass multiple arguments to functions, outside of 0..
22:53:57 <ehird> how do you think 0 itself works?
22:57:49 <oerjan> well, 0 can only take a second argument that is a list of quoted programs
22:58:12 <oerjan> the only other command that looks inside lists is 9.
22:58:37 <ehird> oerjan: curried commands...
22:58:58 <ehird> its undecidable whether (m ((n))) is ok
22:59:22 <oerjan> does 9's second argument have the same format as 0's second argument?
22:59:58 <oerjan> if there is, then i claim there is nothing that can actually use an argument of the form (n)
23:00:07 <ehird> hm i could make 0 and 9 variable arity
23:00:11 <oerjan> (although it could be passed around)
23:00:18 <ehird> the thing 9 produces is basically variable arity anyway, resolved at runtime
23:00:24 <ehird> oerjan: good idea? could be more obscure, which is good
23:01:01 <oerjan> i nearly suggested it myself earlier
23:01:24 <oerjan> but didn't since i thought your current way is weirder :)
23:02:18 <ehird> oerjan: i've changed it. should i change it back?
23:02:27 <ehird> it's amusingly reminiscent of LISP 1.5
23:02:31 <ehird> FUNC (expr expr...)
23:03:24 <ehird> oerjan: is this the no-soliciting-opinions zone? :-)
23:03:45 <oerjan> i think it's a choice between weirdness and elegance
23:05:25 <ehird> oerjan: I want elegant weirdness. Like unlambda.
23:05:56 -!- timotiis has quit ("leaving").
23:06:54 <ehird> oerjan: which do you think would fit that? :)
23:10:15 <Slereah> Character recognition in binary is tiresome.
23:11:29 * oerjan puts up a "no soliciting sign" :)
23:12:09 <ehird> yay, my qq interp works
23:12:12 <ehird> all i have to do is write the parser
23:15:51 <Slereah> Hm. Maybe I should write some short Python to write the char recognition.
23:17:11 <Slereah> Although it might be horrible for multiple chars.
23:23:21 <Slereah> Well, it can recognize [ and ] so far.
23:30:02 <ehird> sheesh, parsers suck
23:30:16 <ehird> oerjan: do you think an infinite loop would be trivial in qq by the way?
23:30:21 <ehird> that would be a first step
23:33:43 <Slereah> Doesn't the doubling( 0 8 ( 0 (something) doubling) idea works for that?
23:34:05 <Slereah> Might not be 8, I didn't follow the many change in numbers.
23:34:20 <Slereah> The second if not zero, 3rd if zero
23:39:55 <ehird> 8 x y z -> if x (is not zero), y, else z
23:40:20 <Slereah> Wouldn't that loop to infinity?
23:40:34 <Slereah> After sprinkling some 1's and 0's so that it parses
23:41:51 <EgoBot> cannot open checkpoint file /home/gregor/esoteric/egobot/egobot/daemons/ul: No such file or directory
23:42:46 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Qq
23:43:00 <ehird> 3. (arity 1) Munges the quoted program argument with itself.
23:47:18 <Slereah> Sooo... 3 (0 8 ((1 0) (Stuff) (1 3))), evaluates to (0 8 ((1 0) (Stuff) (1 3))) (0 8 ((1 0) (Stuff) (1 3))), (0 8 ((1 0) (Stuff) (1 3))) with ((1 0) (Stuff) (1 3)) evaluated first, to (I think) ((0) (Stuff) (3)), and then, 8 ((0) (Stuff) (3)) converts to (3)
23:47:44 <Slereah> Which would fall back on 3 (0 8 ((1 0) (Stuff) (1 3)))
23:47:52 <Slereah> If I didn't completely misunderstood.
23:52:59 <ehird> okay, the interp is ready
23:53:08 <ehird> oerjan: ping, Slereah: ping
23:53:52 <ehird> Slereah: OK, do you have a lisp implementation?
23:54:21 <ehird> Depends if you installed one or not?
23:55:21 <ehird> Slereah: What linux distro?
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23:58:56 <ehird> Slereah: What linux distro?
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