←2008-01-30 2008-01-31 2008-02-01→ ↑2008 ↑all
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00:16:06 <ehird> GregorR: I can't think of a better name than SuperEgoBot :P
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00:17:06 <Endeavour> i like this one
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02:52:22 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: can you confirm that this is a moderately acceptable translation?
02:52:23 <RodgerTheGreat> http://nonlogic.org/dump/images/1201721232-RRmockup.gif
02:53:08 <pikhq> I can't read the kanji beneath the "Nihon no tekisuto" line.
02:53:28 <pikhq> But that's a matter of my not being a master of Japanese, not that it's necessarily wrong.
02:53:30 <RodgerTheGreat> well, the entire thing is supposed to read "Japanese text decoration"
02:53:51 <RodgerTheGreat> or something to that effect
03:01:24 <Sgeo> G'night all
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04:32:19 <CakeProphet> :)
04:34:30 <RodgerTheGreat> howdy, CakeProphet
04:34:50 <CakeProphet> allo, m'love
04:34:59 <RodgerTheGreat> ...ok
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06:19:05 <Slereah> AnMaster: The Hello World was in some stupid time-language.
06:19:25 <Slereah> (I was sleeping, and I assume that he is now)
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07:43:52 <AnMaster> Slereah, morning
07:44:09 <AnMaster> Slereah, can you provide a link to this language?
07:44:10 <Slereah> Hello.
07:44:13 <Slereah> No.
07:44:22 <Slereah> Just a stupid idea I had yesterday.
07:44:29 <Slereah> A language based on clocks.
07:44:35 <AnMaster> ah sounds interesting
07:44:44 <AnMaster> so how would it work?
07:44:58 <Slereah> This Hello, world! wouldn't work, because each instruction would take some time.
07:45:11 <Slereah> You've got clocks.
07:45:26 <Slereah> - means "wait" (I use 1 second right now)
07:45:35 <Slereah> * means "execute"
07:45:49 <AnMaster> ah
07:45:55 <AnMaster> execute what?
07:46:00 <Slereah> The execution is the time mod. 8.
07:46:07 <AnMaster> hah
07:46:11 <Slereah> If t%8 is 0, the clock is reset.
07:46:16 <AnMaster> would this be turing complete?
07:46:22 <Slereah> 1, it outputs the next execution mod 256
07:46:26 <Slereah> 2, input
07:46:31 <Slereah> 3, go on the next clock
07:46:34 <Slereah> 4 previous
07:46:44 <AnMaster> hm interesting
07:46:47 <Slereah> No idea so far
07:46:55 <AnMaster> very interesting
07:47:07 <AnMaster> you should code an interpreter
07:47:24 <Slereah> Probably some instruction to jump back in the code
07:47:38 <Slereah> And some other to use the computer's clock. To make were programs.
07:47:49 <Slereah> Hello world that only execute on a full moon or something
07:47:54 <AnMaster> hah
07:48:09 <Slereah> I have some sort of interpreter.
07:48:19 <Slereah> But execution time quickly matters.
07:48:45 <AnMaster> hm?
07:49:01 <AnMaster> you simulate non-multitasking computer with it's own clock right?
07:49:15 <Slereah> No.
07:49:22 <Slereah> I just use the computer's clock
07:49:24 <AnMaster> because that may be a good idea to do
07:49:45 <AnMaster> as you can't realistically depend on the clock of the computer, the OS is multitasking
07:50:21 <Slereah> Well, if the only time the clock advanced was when there's an - instruction, it would just be equivalent to some Turing machine where a bunch of cells are incremented by 1 for every - !
07:50:47 <AnMaster> well you got to increment for * too
07:51:19 <AnMaster> Slereah, ok can you make it depend on actual run time for the program rather than system time?
07:51:54 <Slereah> I don't know.
07:52:01 <AnMaster> because basically, stuff like multitasking will prevent this from working
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07:56:04 <Slereah> Well, using the system time and not considering execution times work for up to 2 minutes, usually, if I use 1 second as a unit.
07:56:31 <Slereah> Second l in Hello world change to m
07:56:42 <Slereah> And I assume it only gets worse from here.
07:57:47 <Slereah> I could tinker it until it works, but yes, I don't have a way to be sure it would work every time
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09:30:19 <Insane> Yay somebody's stealing my nickserv regged name. I'm gonna have nickserv keep it in future ^^
09:30:55 <oklopol> Insane: you've registered it?
09:31:25 <Insane> Duh
09:31:43 <Insane> The name in question is "Insane" ^^
09:32:15 <Insane> Let me test something
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09:34:22 <Insane> Hmm
09:35:47 <oklopol> stop the MADNESS!!
09:36:09 <Insane> This is madness! This is blasphemy!°
09:36:21 <Insane> THIS IS SPARTA!
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11:44:50 <Deewiant> +++
11:45:11 <Slereah> Cell 0 = 3
11:45:57 <Deewiant> er, sorry about that, I'm on a school computer with a Sun keyboard
11:46:06 <Deewiant> it has a mind of its own
11:46:25 <Deewiant> and the keys in all the wrong places
11:46:32 <Slereah> <keyboard> KILL ALL HUMANS
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13:28:54 <Sgeo> hijix
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14:18:24 <Insane> How about string++?
14:18:29 <Insane> A language based on strings
14:18:31 <Insane> instead of numbers
14:19:38 <oklopol> string strang strong
14:19:46 <RodgerTheGreat> // is based entirely upon strings
14:19:51 <RodgerTheGreat> argh
14:19:54 <RodgerTheGreat> I mean ///
14:19:57 <oklopol> try redivider, also
14:20:08 <RodgerTheGreat> or muriel
14:20:15 <Insane> Heh
14:20:25 <oklopol> or thue, perhaps
14:21:46 <RodgerTheGreat> but really, any entirely string based language is just a few functions away from having integers, and even though it'll be much slower it isn't all that difficult to synthesize simple math
14:24:05 <oklopol> except you can make it hard to make a "function".
14:24:19 <oklopol> where function is the generalization of a function, something you make abstraction with
14:24:48 <oklopol> (which is a generalization of a very particular aspect of a function, but you hopefully follow me.)
14:25:20 <oklopol> this is the case with slashes, for example
14:25:35 <oklopol> with redivider, you could prolly make numbers in a zippie
14:25:57 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, but ultimately those are implementation details
14:26:21 <oklopol> hmm?
14:26:47 <oklopol> well, aren't all languages equal if abstractions are just implementation details?
14:26:59 <RodgerTheGreat> if a language is TC, it will be possible to make something vaguely resembling a function, or at least a serviceable macro
14:27:14 <RodgerTheGreat> oklopol: yes! :D
14:27:22 <oklopol> ofc, but you cannot always make it usable in a short amount of code.
14:27:37 <RodgerTheGreat> once we abandon efficiency and sanity, all languages are *obviously* equal
14:27:41 <oklopol> which is a crucial part in an abstraction
14:28:05 <Insane> Only if it's TC
14:28:07 <Insane> :P
14:28:25 <RodgerTheGreat> Insane: true, we don't know if /// is TC, after all
14:28:37 <oklopol> we are just OPINING it.
14:28:53 <RodgerTheGreat> I strongly suspect it's TC, but we haven't made much progress on the whole infinite loop thing
14:29:03 <Insane> Well it depends on the interpreter
14:29:34 <oklopol> Insane: lolwut?
14:29:55 <Insane> I mean
14:29:58 <Insane> if all languages are equal
14:30:17 <Insane> or rather the interpreter specification
14:30:21 <RodgerTheGreat> The main reason I think it could be TC is that it's semantics contain conditional operations, an ability to nest operations or perform simple concatenations, and an inherent looping structure (as long as you don't run out of code)
14:30:30 <Insane> for example, try doing networking in brainfuck. Now try doing networking in C++
14:31:06 <RodgerTheGreat> with a reasonable extension, BF networking might not be ludicrously painful
14:31:45 <oklopol> well, tcness doesn't specify io, but it does specify there is a way to encode any type of io in the language using a certain state for a certain kind of io operation
14:31:58 <oklopol> (although that was a bit informally put)
14:32:23 <oklopol> btw, we should make a list of "points everyone on the userlist has made multiple times, and should thus be avoided"
14:32:26 <Insane> RodgerTheGreat, I programmed an irc bot in NetBrainFuck
14:32:39 <RodgerTheGreat> impressive.
14:32:41 <oklopol> i mean, how many times have you heard c is not tc :P
14:32:56 <Insane> Heh
14:32:57 <Insane> Not really
14:32:59 <oklopol> (that was mostly a joke)
14:33:14 <Insane> I hard-coded the irc bot
14:33:17 <Insane> and it has 0 interaction
14:33:20 <Insane> basically only one way
14:33:29 <Insane> but the point is that NetBrainFuck works
14:33:35 <Insane> It's telnet based
14:33:39 <Insane> means it sends chars immediately
14:33:44 <RodgerTheGreat> still not a bad proof-of-concept
14:34:10 <RodgerTheGreat> if you can get it to respond to ping requests, it qualifies as a real bot, so you're close
14:34:32 <Insane> Heh
14:34:35 <Insane> Perhaps
14:34:43 <Insane> I've had theories, but I'm not bored enough to try them
14:34:54 <Insane> We need a C to brainfuck translator ^^
14:35:07 <RodgerTheGreat> plus doing that would frighteningly enough build a general bot framework that others could extend
14:35:19 <RodgerTheGreat> Insane: GregorR made one, I think
14:35:36 <Insane> heh
14:35:40 <Insane> frighteningly?
14:35:45 <Insane> And that hardly qualified as a framework
14:36:40 <Insane> I inputted "NICK netbrainfsck\nUSER a b c d\nJOIN #botters\nPRIVMSG #botters :Meep\n" into a text-to-brainfuck converter
14:36:47 <Insane> And did s/./%/g
14:36:52 <Insane> where % means send
14:37:01 <RodgerTheGreat> comment it and show how you can replicate the ping responder structure to do event-based code and recognize IRC signals
14:37:18 <Insane> Hmm
14:37:19 <Insane> Maybe
14:37:21 <Insane> http://insane.pastebin.org/17554
14:37:22 <Insane> Meep
14:37:28 <Insane> That's my code
14:37:35 <Insane> it takes host/port from console
14:37:41 <Insane> Since I'm too lazy to hardcode it
14:37:47 <Insane> * means connect
14:37:50 <RodgerTheGreat> yup
14:37:59 <RodgerTheGreat> that seemed pretty clear
14:38:10 <Insane> :P
14:38:24 <Insane> * goes right starting at the current pointer until a \n is met
14:38:25 <RodgerTheGreat> and % is obviously "output to telnet"
14:38:31 <Insane> heh
14:38:36 <Insane> ! is "input from telnet"
14:38:40 <EgoBot> Huh?
14:39:11 <Insane> returns 0 on error/disconnect
14:39:31 <Insane> So that +[!]~ loops until disconnected and subsequently disconencts+closes (~) the socket
14:40:04 <Insane> and the cheapest telnet console (sans address port) you can make is a one-way console:
14:40:19 <Insane> * +[!.]~
14:40:24 <Insane> It actually works
14:41:04 <RodgerTheGreat> try making a gopher client
14:41:12 <Insane> gopher?
14:41:24 <RodgerTheGreat> pre- http web protocol
14:41:27 <Insane> oh
14:41:29 <Insane> Heh
14:41:29 <RodgerTheGreat> there's a good wiki article on it
14:41:31 <Insane> naw
14:42:01 <Insane> btw, I'm thinking of how to do a two-way telnet console
14:42:10 <Insane> The problem is that both ! and , block
14:42:20 <RodgerTheGreat> so you'd have to buffer
14:42:33 <Insane> I made ? which is like ! but returns 0 if there is no data to be read
14:42:55 <Insane> and I'm thinking of how to do ; which *should* be non-blocking ,
14:43:07 <Insane> Or maybe I should do '
14:43:08 <Insane> or `
14:43:46 <tejeez> or add something like select
14:44:02 <Insane> That'd be too "non-brainfuck" for me :P
14:44:17 <Insane> Heh
14:44:26 <Insane> actually ; is too non-brainfuck for me as well
14:44:31 <RodgerTheGreat> include more parameters in the input connect takes
14:44:40 <Insane> Hmm
14:44:42 <Insane> Like?
14:44:52 <Insane> blocking / non blocking?
14:45:06 <RodgerTheGreat> I would just say "fetch X number of bytes before disconnecting", with 0 meaning "connect indefinitely"
14:45:09 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
14:45:15 <Insane> Hmm
14:45:18 <Insane> That's easy
14:45:23 <Insane> even without extra params
14:45:29 <Insane> this would fetch 10 bytes
14:45:36 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, I know
14:46:00 <RodgerTheGreat> you could make a "connect stack"
14:46:24 <RodgerTheGreat> if you connect while connected, you create a new connection and push the current one down (but keep it open)
14:46:30 <Insane> /input connection details here/ * <++++++++++> +<[>!. /process/ <-]
14:46:31 <Insane> Heh
14:46:40 <Insane> Add ~ to the end to d/c
14:46:48 <Insane> hmm
14:46:57 <Insane> Well right now connecting while connected simply returns an error
14:47:04 <Insane> Bah
14:47:10 <Insane> Too non-brainfuck already
14:47:10 <Insane> :P
14:47:22 <Insane> I'll stick to C# for my irc bots
14:51:41 <Insane> LOL
14:52:29 <Insane> I told this guy to do "php5 path/to/php/file/here.php" and he kept saying he got "file not found", so I asked him to copy/paste what he was doing and it turns out he actually entered path/to/bot/here.php
14:52:44 <Insane> *php/file
14:52:50 <Insane> heh
15:00:47 <oklopol> classic
15:01:37 <Insane> He actually took it serious though
15:01:37 <Insane> lol
15:02:04 <Insane> He's sorta the cluesless "I don't know what irc, the internet or php is but I wanna code an irc bot in php using others' code"
15:02:08 <Insane> +type of person
15:04:01 <oklopol> ah, the best kind :)
15:04:40 <oklopol> in uni today, i overheard someone say something about an sql evaluator being a 3 year project
15:04:54 <oklopol> now i just have to get mine done in less than 5 hours :D
15:05:37 <oklopol> (although it basically just brute forces, at least the version i have that schedule for)
15:08:39 <Insane> lol
15:09:42 <oklopol> well, it will not generate the whole cartesian product, of course, but it does not check which order is the most feasible.
15:10:08 <oklopol> even i'm not that insane :)
15:10:15 <oklopol> anyway, gotta go ->
15:14:24 <Insane> hehk
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16:16:16 <slereah__> I are back people.
16:16:39 <slereah__> Also, aren't Unlambda and other such languages string-based, in a way?
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18:19:53 <bsmntbombdood> unlambda?
18:19:55 <bsmntbombdood> no....
18:21:00 <Slereah> What's the definition of a string based language?
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18:56:41 <ehird`> '... Then, get the Linux kernel sources and read the file linux/Documentation/CodingStyle, and ignore Linus's jokes. These two documents will give you a good idea of what we recommend for GNOME code.
18:56:41 <ehird`> '
18:56:50 <ehird`> pft
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19:23:51 <ehird`> using a 57 line WM feels odd.
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19:40:53 <ehird`> oklopol: okloping
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19:42:37 <oklopol> !
19:42:39 <EgoBot> Huh?
19:44:04 <Slereah> Shush robot
19:44:30 <oklopol> i cannot see invites.
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20:01:47 <TheTedd> blarg
20:01:58 <Slereah> Interblag?
20:02:11 <TheTedd> link?
20:02:50 <Slereah> http://xkcd.com/181/
20:03:01 <TheTedd> I know that one :p
20:03:21 <Slereah> Then why ask!
20:03:21 <TheTedd> I totally linked it in myblagspace
20:03:39 <TheTedd> because I felt like it!
20:03:42 <Slereah> Your blagoblagospace?
20:03:44 <Slereah> ...blag.
20:03:51 <TheTedd> no
20:04:01 <TheTedd> I was blarging
20:04:21 <Slereah> What are we, smurfs?
20:04:27 <Slereah> *blurgs
20:04:45 <TheTedd> I see how that's an easy mistake to make
20:05:04 <Slereah> The keys are right next to each other!
20:05:14 <TheTedd> granted
20:07:11 <TheTedd> sooooo
20:07:17 <Slereah> Soooo?
20:07:30 <TheTedd> yes, that's what I said
20:07:42 <Slereah> I'm reassured.
20:07:52 <TheTedd> all part of the service
20:07:54 <Slereah> It could have been a symptom of schizophrenia otherwise
20:08:20 <TheTedd> how so?
20:08:37 <Slereah> If I saw a word, and it wasn't there!
20:08:55 <TheTedd> too much caffeine
20:09:02 <Slereah> I don't drink coffee.
20:09:18 <TheTedd> I never mentioned coffee
20:09:28 <TheTedd> did you see coffee when it wasn't there?
20:10:05 <Slereah> Well, I don't drink tea either, or coca cola, red bull, or eat caffein pills.
20:10:21 <Slereah> Or any other caffein-ful item
20:10:30 <TheTedd> chocolate?
20:11:08 <Slereah> If I ate enough for caffeine, I'd worry about biabeetus before.
20:11:13 <Slereah> diabeetus*
20:11:33 <TheTedd> I'd worry about humungusgutus
20:11:55 <Slereah> I'm a skinny fuck.
20:12:05 <TheTedd> not after all that chocolate
20:13:10 <ehird`> blogoblah
20:13:12 <ehird`> -blag
20:13:45 <Slereah> Blogabloog?
20:13:49 <TheTedd> I blargly agree
20:13:59 <Slereah> Blog blimey!
20:15:31 <TheTedd> blargness
20:16:11 * Slereah wants to do a wiki article for Clockpunk
20:16:23 <Slereah> But first, I must do a diagram of the theoretical model.
20:16:32 <TheTedd> [citation needed]
20:16:33 <Slereah> An infinite tape of clocks. And an Englishman.
20:16:38 <Slereah> Well, the esowiki
20:18:10 <TheTedd> [blarg needed]
20:18:32 <Slereah> [Esco interpreter needed]
20:18:59 <TheTedd> where do they speak esco? escoland??
20:19:07 <ehird`> Slereah: loool, esco
20:19:11 <ehird`> :D
20:19:17 <Slereah> Who knows!
20:19:35 <Slereah> If they make an interpreter for Ook, why not for Clockpunk!
20:20:10 <TheTedd> * Who :No such nick/channel
20:20:18 <TheTedd> shame Who isn't here
20:21:02 <Slereah> It is strange that the ESCO PROJECT is so slow.
20:21:45 <Slereah> I mean, three of their six languages is basically the same, and one of the simplest!
20:21:51 <Slereah> and one isn't even a language.
20:21:58 <Slereah> Although they apparently just added Byter
20:23:28 <Slereah> You can now download ESCO V O.50!
20:23:45 <TheTedd> w00t
20:24:07 <Slereah> Oh, and apparently Befunge too!
20:24:12 <Slereah> Let's see that miracle
20:24:41 <TheTedd> God isn't here right now, please leave a message..
20:27:09 <Slereah> "
20:27:09 <Slereah> This version supports Brainfuck, Ook, Spoon, HQ9+, WhiteSpace, Befunge-93,
20:27:09 <Slereah> Byter.
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20:32:08 <Slereah> "configure: error: GMP library not found. Use --disable-gmp"
20:32:24 <Slereah> Hm.
20:32:31 <Slereah> What liberry is this?
20:32:40 <TheTedd> "gmp"
20:33:00 <Slereah> So I assumed.
20:33:08 <GregorR> The GNU MultiPrecision (bignum) library.
20:33:16 <TheTedd> gmplib.org
20:33:22 <Slereah> Thanks.
20:35:36 <ehird`> Slereah: isn't esco wonderfully crap? :)
20:35:53 <Slereah> Well, I can't really read C that thick.
20:36:33 <ehird`> it's just crap though!
20:36:36 <ehird`> and its crappy c++
20:37:24 <Slereah> "checking for suitable m4... configure: error: No usable m4 in $PATH or /usr/5bin (see config.log for reasons)."
20:37:25 <Slereah> Wut?
20:37:33 <ehird`> install m4
20:37:57 <Slereah> But what if m4 asks me to install gmp!
20:38:05 <Slereah> Aaaaaaaaah
20:38:16 <TheTedd> and flex and bison and ......
20:38:51 <Slereah> I'm not even sure what m4 is
20:39:27 <Slereah> "Multi-Modal Mesh Manipulation (M4)"?
20:39:58 <ehird`> no
20:40:01 <ehird`> macro transformer
20:40:14 <TheTedd> some kind of macro language... what eh' said
20:43:02 <Slereah> Fuck this.
20:43:09 <Slereah> Esco can't be worth that much trouble.
20:43:50 <TheTedd> just write a bf++ compiler instead :D
20:44:05 <Slereah> What's bf++?
20:44:17 <TheTedd> brainfuck with oop extensions
20:44:36 <ehird`> you can do that in plain brainfuck
20:44:42 <ehird`> just search for 'OOP brainfuck'
20:44:59 <TheTedd> I didn't do it
20:45:02 <ehird`> good
20:45:41 <TheTedd> "fu"
20:45:57 <TheTedd> not so much a variant as a full turing machine simulator
20:46:16 <Slereah> I use the Love Machine 9000 for that.
20:46:25 <Slereah> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/NTCM
20:47:12 <TheTedd> blarg
20:47:50 <TheTedd> multiple tapes is cheating :p
20:48:13 <Slereah> Well, you don't have to use multiple tapes!
20:48:25 <Slereah> I also made a 2D version, but it still has some problems.
20:48:54 <Slereah> There's a BF interpreter on one tape on it
20:49:01 <Slereah> In the external ressources.
20:49:13 <ehird`> Slereah: to beep in linux
20:49:15 <ehird`> echo \7
20:49:18 <ehird`> somethign like
20:49:21 <ehird`> print "\7"
20:49:22 <ehird`> wait no
20:49:26 <ehird`> sys.stdout.write("\7")
20:49:49 <Slereah> ehird`: Wut?
20:49:57 <ehird`> Slereah: what
20:50:05 <Slereah> Why do you say this?
20:50:19 <TheTedd> just if you wanted to know
20:50:46 <Slereah> I have an ASCII chart on the wall, beep's on it.
20:52:22 <Slereah> If you refer to the winsound, it's not because of beep.
20:52:27 <Slereah> It's because of this : [a[cr:F#57RIF#58RINO1RID55RIF#55RIG55RIA55RINO1RIG55RIF#55RIE55RINO2RIF57RINO1RIF55RIE55RIF55RIE55RID55RID59:b]|b[#:RI:c;cr:LE:b]|c[#:HA:c;cr:DIRI:c]][0=#;ims=a;nd;nh;etFecF;t1]
20:52:53 <TheTedd> oh, now I see
20:53:22 <Slereah> Yes.
20:53:33 <Slereah> I wanted to play the Monkey Island theme on a Turing machine.
20:53:51 <TheTedd> chr 7 beep is only one tone
20:54:07 <Slereah> Hence the Winsound on the original Love Machine 9000
20:54:23 <ehird`> Slereah: you have a bip function though
20:54:25 <ehird`> which just beeps
20:54:30 <ehird`> you can implement that trivially
20:54:44 <TheTedd> no, have a virtual device, of which 'beeper' is one
20:54:53 <Slereah> But can it play the Monkey Island theme, can it?
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20:56:17 <ehird`> hm
20:56:51 <Slereah> If I just want a bip, I can prolly use P(alt + 007)
20:57:12 <Slereah> Or use Going Postal, since it uses binary
20:57:36 <ehird`> Slereah: i mean you actually do have one
20:57:40 <ehird`> but its commented out in the linux ver.
20:57:58 <Slereah> Yes.
20:58:09 <Slereah> Because well, since it's winsound, it won't work.
20:58:33 <ehird`> so make it print \7
20:58:56 <Slereah> Nah. Not much point.
20:59:09 <Slereah> Especially since the syntax is based on musical notes for that one.
20:59:46 <TheTedd> I'd go with the beeper 'device' and then you can 'out' to it to play any notes you choose
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21:00:30 <Slereah> That many quotation marks isn't a good sign!
21:00:35 <ehird`> 0000=bool, 0001=void, 0010=nil, 0011=smallint, 0100=bigint, 0101=smallfloat, 0110=bigfloat, 0111=char, 1000=string, 1001=pair, 1010=primitive, 1011=procedure, 1100=continuation, 1101=environment, 1110=port, 1111=symbol
21:00:41 <ehird`> 4 bits still isn't enough for my tag!!
21:00:42 <TheTedd> 'sorry' :p
21:00:45 <ehird`> i need ONE MORE: vector
21:01:49 <TheTedd> so extend it to 8 for future safety
21:02:01 <Slereah> But that will give you 15 other numbers to attribute :o
21:02:36 <ehird`> exactly i don't have 31 types.
21:02:46 <ehird`> just 17
21:03:00 <TheTedd> so attribute the extras as 'violation'
21:03:20 <Slereah> Use ternary.
21:03:36 <ehird`> TheTedd: noes
21:03:45 <ehird`> i only have one pointer
21:04:34 <TheTedd> so?
21:04:47 <TheTedd> you'll still have to deal with it at some point
21:05:05 <ehird`> no
21:05:15 <Slereah> Create some more types maybe?
21:05:16 <ehird`> 17 types, i need to encode 'em as concisely as possible
21:05:49 <TheTedd> well 17 won't fit into 4 bits
21:05:57 <Slereah> Well, 3 ternary tits would be more concise
21:05:58 <ehird`> duh
21:06:00 <ehird`> :)
21:06:12 <Slereah> And leave 10 numbers, just in case!
21:06:13 <TheTedd> so you need 5 bits - and that means 'wasting' some values
21:06:51 <TheTedd> so have the extra values as 'error' type for now, then they can be used in future extension
21:07:10 <Slereah> Maybe you could use a binary value to redirect to something else.
21:07:19 <Slereah> For instance, 1111 -> symbol if next bit is 0, else if bla bla
21:07:39 <ehird`> TheTedd: extensions will never happen
21:07:46 <TheTedd> you've just proven it will
21:07:59 <TheTedd> you now have an 'extra' type
21:08:18 <Slereah> You could... delete one type.
21:08:36 <ehird`> TheTedd: No, I haven't even committed these to code yet.
21:08:54 <TheTedd> but you're trying to extend your design - same diff
21:09:09 <TheTedd> anyway, do you need the separation of both nil and void?
21:09:33 <Slereah> What's the difference between char and symbol, also?
21:10:15 <ehird`> TheTedd: and no i'm not.
21:10:18 <ehird`> and yes.
21:10:28 <ehird`> nil=terminal,void=unspecified
21:10:57 <TheTedd> can they both occur in the same context?
21:11:31 <ehird`> no
21:12:14 <TheTedd> then you only need one of them :p
21:12:23 <TheTedd> which one it 'is' depends on the context only
21:12:42 <TheTedd> and now you have an extra slot :D
21:13:16 <TheTedd> 0=bool, 1=void/nil, 2=....
21:13:24 <Slereah> The gods of types will be angry at him if he does!
21:13:39 <TheTedd> the gods of combinatorial logic will be otherwise
21:13:48 <ehird`> TheTedd: I misunderstood you.
21:13:53 <ehird`> Anyway, it's not my choice to make.
21:14:52 <TheTedd> well it's a suggestion
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21:24:00 <ehird`> TheTedd: not my lang.
21:24:28 <TheTedd> it's not a change in the lang, just the interpreter/compiler
21:24:56 <Slereah> Unless those denominations ARE IN THE LANGUAGE :O
21:25:37 <TheTedd> even still, the symbolic representation doesn't change the meaning of the language
21:26:02 <Slereah> Yes, but would you program in BF if every symbol was butt?
21:26:05 <Slereah> I don't think so!
21:26:33 <Slereah> BF has pleasing meaningful symbols!
21:27:27 <TheTedd> it's not a change to the symbols used..
21:28:09 <TheTedd> just the _representation_ of 'meaning' from inside the interpreter, while the _meaning_ remains the same
21:29:23 <ehird`> TheTedd: sorry, but void and nil are seperate, and non-interchangable
21:29:27 <ehird`> they are not related
21:29:34 <ehird`> you can consider nil 'end' and void '??'
21:29:48 <TheTedd> I hope they are not related - or it wouldn't work :p
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21:31:13 <TheTedd> the case is simple - if they cannot occur within the same context, then you can use the same 'type' representation in either context and there is no confusion between the two
21:31:49 <TheTedd> if they can, then no it's not going to work
21:32:59 <ehird`> everything can occur in the same context
21:33:13 <TheTedd> 5 bits it is then
21:33:39 <TheTedd> or some kind of dynamic mixed representation
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23:44:01 <Slereah> I should finish that Post machine BF interpreter.
23:44:13 <Slereah> Or at least the basic functions.
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