←2008-02-05 2008-02-06 2008-02-07→ ↑2008 ↑all
00:00:17 <ehird`> http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://kx.com/cgi-bin/getSoftware_new.pl?klin.zip=y damnit, none ofthem want to work
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00:12:35 <ehird`> speaking of which i really ought to get elliotthird.org up
00:12:48 <ehird`> eh, as soon as i settle on a programming language and get Nodist written...
00:12:49 <ehird`> (never)
00:25:58 <ehird`> hm
00:26:09 <ehird`> does cpressey ever come by here?
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00:41:05 <pikhq> Rarely, if ever.
00:43:42 <ehird`> what's his nick when he does, then?
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01:42:35 <lament> cpressey.
01:43:22 <RodgerTheGreat> heh
01:56:39 <Geekthras> http://rafb.net/p/Ir9XSN95.html finally!
01:57:54 <pikhq> You say 'finally'?
01:58:05 <Geekthras> it was bugging before
01:58:26 <pikhq> Ah, an interpreter.
01:58:33 <pikhq> Only slightly harder than a compiler.
01:58:57 <Geekthras> yeah
01:59:21 <Geekthras> mostly just getting loops to work recursively
02:08:33 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, that's a nifty way to do []
02:09:27 <Geekthras> yeah much better than keeping track of depth
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03:12:34 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/pics/displayimage.php?album=4&pos=0 // how to choose a democratic candidate
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03:18:57 <RodgerTheGreat> haha. Somebody's telomeres are eroding!
03:19:03 <RodgerTheGreat> hey, calamari
03:19:06 <calamari> hi
03:20:42 <RodgerTheGreat> what're you up to this evening?
03:37:11 <pikhq> Hey, calamari. I plan to pick your brains for PEBBLE 2 when I code it a bit further.
03:37:26 <calamari> ok
03:37:32 <pikhq> Not quite yet, though.
03:37:40 <pikhq> Still got some stuff to do for my calc class. . .
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06:10:00 <Geekthras> Hey wait calamari was the BASIC2BF guy right?
06:16:09 <RodgerTheGreat> BFBASIC, yes
06:16:23 <RodgerTheGreat> I told him he was my hero when I realized that
06:17:00 <Geekthras> ...that's awesome
06:17:54 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, I know
06:18:47 <RodgerTheGreat> this is what is great about the internet: Not only can you meet your heroes, you can find out that the dude you've been chatting with for a couple days IS one of your heroes
06:26:18 <Geekthras> hah
06:26:19 <Geekthras> yeah
06:27:05 <bsmntbombdood> oh fuck
06:27:09 <bsmntbombdood> i LOVE this album
06:27:26 <bsmntbombdood> Infected Mushroom - Vicious Delicious
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06:32:41 -!- immibis has set topic: THIS IS THE TOPIC.
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06:53:41 <bsmntbombdood> </bsmntbombdood>
06:54:27 <immibis> that is not well-formed xml on many clients.
06:54:43 <immibis> for example, ones that say (bsmntbombdood) or bsmntbombdood:
06:55:24 <bsmntbombdood> huh?
06:57:49 <immibis> (bsmntbombdood) </bsmntbombdood> is not well-formed xml.
06:58:01 <immibis> nor is bsmntbombdood: </bsmntbombdood>
06:58:01 <oklopol> immibis: get a real client
06:58:07 <oklopol> <bsmntbombdood> </bsmntbombdood>
06:58:16 <immibis> </immibis> </oklopol>
06:58:24 <oklopol> :)
06:58:46 <immibis> oklopol: how do you know what client i have?
06:59:03 <oklopol> you have a client that shows (nick) for privmsgs
06:59:12 <immibis> no, actually i don't.
06:59:13 <immibis> but some do.
06:59:24 <immibis> i think xchat shows nick | message
06:59:26 <oklopol> hey
07:00:01 <oklopol> yep yep, i just seem to have missed a few of your lines
07:04:47 <immibis> </immibis> </oklopol> </oklopol> </immibis> </immibis> </immibis> </oklopol> </immibis> </oklopol> <text> Just closing some xml tags that weren't closed. </text>
07:04:47 <oklopol> we need a bot for this
07:04:47 <immibis> </immibis> </oklopol>
07:04:47 * immibis starts netbeans (no this doesn't need a closing tag)
07:04:47 <oklopol> you already did it, didn't you?
07:05:20 <immibis> not yet, no </immibis> </oklopol>
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07:24:01 <oklopol> is "-->" the end of an html comment?
07:24:10 <immibis> yes
07:24:19 <immibis> and <!-- is the start
07:24:22 <oklopol> (n=salparot@cust.fiber-lan.vnet.lk. <<< weh have a problem
07:24:29 <oklopol> err
07:24:37 <oklopol> sorry, konversation fails at copypaste
07:24:42 <immibis> </immibis> </oklopol> </oklopol> </oklopol> </immibis> </immibis> </oklopol>
07:24:43 <oklopol> [09:13] --> olsner has joined this channel
07:24:47 <immibis> indeed.
07:24:51 <immibis> oh
07:25:14 <oklopol> anyways, i think i need to get going now, you keep up the good work! ->
07:25:54 <olsner> what was all the fuzz about?
07:25:58 <immibis> that's --> to you!
07:26:19 <olsner> well, <!-- back at you
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07:26:50 <immibis> olsner: interpreting irc client output as xml </immibis> </olsner> </immibis> </olsner> </oklopol> </immibis> </immibis> </oklopol>
07:26:53 <XMLCloser> Not well-formed XML! </XMLCloser>
07:26:59 <immibis> hmm
07:27:03 <XMLCloser> </immibis>
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07:28:42 <immibis> blah blah <xml>
07:28:53 <immibis> <moreXML> <moreMoreXML>
07:28:57 <olsner> immibis: but why? it's *not* xml and shouldn't be parsed as it
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07:29:10 * olsner decides to be boring
07:29:11 <immibis> so?
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07:29:53 <immibis[A]> bbt (be back tomorrow) tiimtza (that is in my time zone anyway)
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07:29:56 <olsner> <![CDATA[
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11:33:58 <Figs> Whee!
11:34:17 <slereah__> Wheeeeee!
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11:36:10 <Figs> I just wrote a silly little text adventure with absolutlely horrible style in Python :)
11:36:18 <Figs> ...but it works!
11:36:35 <slereah__> Does it involve axes and trolls?
11:36:36 <Figs> It has about six poorly described rooms
11:36:54 <Figs> It involves lightbulbs, pointless stairs, and vague scents of onions
11:37:58 <Figs> and, of course, I've managed to do everything by way of global variables :D
11:38:17 <Figs> well... not everything
11:38:22 <Figs> but more than half :)
11:52:42 <Figs> You're welcome to give it a try if you want
11:52:44 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/AWjKgu50.html
11:52:48 <Figs> let me know if you find any bugs :)
11:54:41 <slereah__> Are there actions apart from go somewhereN
11:54:59 <slereah__> > help
11:54:59 <slereah__> There be dragons in ye mind!
11:55:05 <slereah__> That's not helpful :o
11:56:21 <Figs> hehe, I forgot to put in a help
11:56:33 <Figs> try playing with the lights
11:56:38 <slereah__> ?
11:56:42 <Figs> in the dark hall way
11:56:56 <slereah__> How do I play with the lights?
11:57:05 <Figs> "turn on the lights"
11:57:13 <Figs> (or just about any variation of that)
11:57:28 <slereah__> You need an action list
11:57:45 <slereah__> Also sumfin to examine the room.
11:58:00 <Figs> type 'look' and it'll give you the description again.
11:58:05 <Figs> like I said, it's pretty minimal
11:58:17 <slereah__> Also, it lacks grue.
11:58:20 <Figs> :)
11:58:27 <Figs> This is true
11:59:06 <Figs> did you figure out how to get outside?
11:59:19 <slereah__> That's the goal?
11:59:38 <Figs> There isn't really a goal in this, but I guess that's as close to a goal as there is
11:59:56 <slereah__> Well, without an action list, it's hard to know what to do.
12:00:08 <Figs> I take it you haven't played H2G2 :)
12:00:44 <slereah__> I've tried to play "Nine Princes in Amber"
12:00:52 <Figs> I'll remember to add better hints when I write the next silly version
12:00:52 <slereah__> It has like three pages full of actions
12:00:58 <Figs> hee hee
12:01:44 <slereah__> http://zelazny.corrupt.net/NPiA/man8.html
12:02:14 <slereah__> Also, fight scenes! http://zelazny.corrupt.net/NPiA/man5&6.html
12:02:31 <slereah__> I'm grateful for being born in the age of computers with actual graphics.
12:02:50 <Figs> rofl
12:03:09 <slereah__> Nine princes in Amber had graphics, sort of.
12:03:20 <slereah__> A pixelated picture on top of every text
12:03:38 <Figs> Ah
12:03:44 <Figs> I've played a couple games like that
12:04:10 <Figs> I think there was one based on the Xanth novels...
12:04:28 <slereah__> Also one on Discworld!
12:04:31 <Figs> It bugged me because there were things in the picture that the game didn't know
12:04:35 <slereah__> The very first Discworld game
12:04:52 <slereah__> Althoguh it was maybe pure texgt
12:04:54 <slereah__> Forgot
12:04:59 <slereah__> I didn't play long.
12:05:02 <Figs> lol
12:05:12 <slereah__> It's pretty much "Light of magic" in video game form
12:05:29 <Figs> Light of Magic?
12:05:39 <slereah__> You know, first Discworld novel
12:05:49 <slereah__> Maybe it's some other name
12:05:52 <slereah__> I forgot
12:05:52 <Figs> ... I haven't read the Discworld novels. :o
12:06:06 <slereah__> You should.
12:06:09 <slereah__> The old ones are good!
12:06:23 <slereah__> Back then, it was silly med fan.
12:06:27 <Figs> I'll consider it, if I ever come across them.
12:06:37 <slereah__> The video games are also good
12:07:14 <Figs> Did you get outside?
12:07:33 <slereah__> Well, I typed "exit" to see what it would do!
12:07:38 <Figs> (I'm just wondering if other people are as silly as me)
12:07:39 <slereah__> I got outside the game :O
12:07:41 <Figs> ahh...
12:07:42 <Figs> haha
12:07:44 <Figs> :P
12:08:02 <Figs> that wasn't the outside I meant. I should probably add a quit guard for the next version
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12:08:30 <slereah__> And why not a save system while you're at it!
12:08:39 <slereah__> "Oh shit, I lost my hours fo games!"
12:10:51 <Figs> There's not enough in the game to have a save system
12:11:00 <Figs> but it'd be fairly easy to do
12:11:05 <Figs> (yay python)
12:11:38 <slereah__> :D
12:12:30 <Figs> At this point, I'd be a bit more interested in improving the parser and structure of the game before I worry about something like saving
12:12:45 <Figs> if you look at the code, you'll see it's totally awful
12:12:46 <slereah__> Well, I'd worry about the game itself!
12:12:50 <Figs> haha :)
12:13:00 <Figs> that's true -- it's awful too
12:13:24 <Figs> but it's easier to build a better game with a better base than to fight the base for every inch of game... at least past a certain point ;)
12:14:28 <slereah__> Here's an example of a good game : http://www.somethingawful.com/d/flash-tub/tub-adventure.php
12:16:19 <Figs> I'm halfway between considering doing a silly game and sorta serious game
12:16:39 <Figs> obviously, the example I made was very silly... :)
12:16:57 <Figs> urk
12:16:59 <Figs> it's 4 am
12:17:06 <Figs> what am I still doing up? :P
12:17:38 <slereah__> It's 1 PM here
12:17:46 <Figs> I'll have to check out your flash game tomorrow
12:17:58 <Figs> need sleep... *zombie*
12:18:10 <Figs> thanks for helping me debug :)
12:18:43 <slereah__> Good night then!
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15:51:30 <ehird`> http://www.wana.at/vimshell/sshot1.png wow
15:51:34 <ehird`> you could run emacs -nw inside vim
15:51:36 <ehird`> or vim inside vim
15:52:22 <ais523> what about emacs inside emacs?
15:52:32 <ehird`> you can do that but it's not as funny
15:52:37 * ais523 frequently runs bash inside bash, but thinks it doesn't really count
15:52:46 <ehird`> emacs -nw<RET> M-x term<RET> emacs -nw<RET>
15:53:13 <ehird`> and yes it works./
15:53:23 <ehird`> it works infinite levels
15:53:34 <ais523> well, until you run out of memory or some other resource
15:53:43 <ehird`> doesn't everyone use turing machines?
15:54:21 <ehird`> ais523: it's funny going through a file -- the line/col indicator syncs with an offset on them all
15:54:22 <ehird`> :)
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15:58:56 <ehird`> ais523: i was going to tell you something today; but i forgot.
15:59:08 * ais523 is still trying to write uudecode in BF
15:59:17 <ais523> especially as the anarchy golf deadline is almost up
15:59:40 <ais523> hmm... 1 min left. I won't finish it that quickly
16:00:47 <ehird`> i really need to get some info pages up about anagolf
16:00:51 <ehird`> mainly for my own sanity! :p
16:01:04 <ehird`> ais523: it's done
16:01:05 <ehird`> :P
16:01:08 <ehird`> ais523: you can still submit!!
16:01:12 <ehird`> people can just read your code.
16:01:25 <ehird`> ruby one is nice
16:01:26 <ehird`> puts gets(gets).unpack'u'
16:01:34 <ehird`> but could be
16:01:41 <ehird`> puts gets(nil).unpack'u'
16:01:54 <ehird`> puts [*$<].join("\n").unpack"u" # longer i think though
16:01:55 <ais523> no, because they have to skip the first line, I think
16:02:09 <ehird`> ais523: ah, yes
16:02:10 <ehird`> ok.
16:02:17 <ehird`> it seems most languages have uudecode built in
16:02:34 <ehird`> ais523: http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?uudecode/51b/1202143066&erl if you could translate this non-lib-using erlang into bash..
16:02:45 <ehird`> http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?uudecode/pooq/1202119366&ijs nice J code :)
16:02:52 <ehird`> ah
16:02:55 <ehird`> this might be easier to translate:
16:02:56 <ehird`> x;n;main(d,c){for(gets(c);c=getchar()-32,c<65;)x=c*x>0?d=d<<6|c&63,!n?n=6:putchar(d>>(n-=2)):!x;}
16:03:27 <ehird`> ais523: that brainfuck entry cheats in some kind of fscked way: http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?uudecode/nuko%28cheat%29/1201122618&bf
16:03:43 <ehird`> maybe exploiting the interp used??
16:04:01 <ehird`> s re(re).u"u" # i love how pointless goruby is
16:04:14 <ehird`> hm
16:04:20 <ehird`> 8 hours til rot13 is done
16:04:32 <ais523> then you can see my brilliant winning Perl entry
16:04:52 <ais523> unless someone else equals it it'll be the first time I've won anagolf outright in Perl
16:05:02 <ehird`> ais523: :)
16:05:24 <ehird`> you should learn ruby, it might not be as good at general text manipulation at perl, but it's good at *golfing* text manipulation, and arithmetic
16:05:26 <ais523> my bash entry worked on the same principle, BTW, but someone beat it
16:05:42 <ais523> probably using an entirely different approach
16:06:00 <ehird`> anyway, how does that brainfuck entry work?
16:06:15 <ais523> must be a buffer overflow aimed against the interp
16:06:29 <ehird`> ais523: btw, my multiply entry is great
16:06:32 <ehird`> ruby version:
16:06:51 <ehird`> p eval gets.gsub(",","*")
16:07:01 <ais523> that's basically how my Perl version works
16:07:09 <ais523> which is presumably the same as everyone else's, being the same length
16:07:22 <ais523> y/,/*/ and eval
16:08:06 <ehird`> silly ruby version:
16:08:07 <ehird`> #!ruby -p
16:08:07 <ehird`> $_=eval gsub",","*"
16:08:34 <ais523> that reminds me of Perl a lot
16:08:38 <ais523> does $_ have the same meaning?
16:09:35 <ehird`> yes
16:09:40 <ehird`> same with #!ruby -p
16:09:47 * ais523 is less surprised at that
16:10:22 <ehird`> http://ruby-talk.org/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/179642
16:10:29 <ehird`> the design of ruby :-)
16:10:56 <ehird`> which appears to be down
16:11:09 <ehird`> hm
16:11:11 <ehird`> ais523: hello, ping
16:11:15 <ais523> pong
16:11:21 <ehird`> good
16:11:25 <ehird`> my interwebs are dying
16:11:37 <ehird`> aha
16:11:38 <ehird`> http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/179642
16:11:58 <ehird`> and that's why ruby can do perly stuff like that
16:12:16 <ehird`> along with its crazy ambiguities like "no parens required on function call" and all that, it can beat perl quite a lot
16:12:24 <ais523> Lisp+Perl isn't the first language combination I would have thought of
16:12:54 <ais523> hm... from that I'd guess that Perl would be better for the very short programs and Ruby for the slightly longer ones
16:13:03 <ais523> in terms of golfing potential
16:17:46 <ehird`> ais523: you would be suprised
16:18:34 <ehird`> ais523: also, it's Lisp->simplified&syntaxed->tiny object system->some syntactical sugar->smalltalk->perl, but prettier
16:19:16 <ehird`> i hope you can write to $*
16:19:21 <ehird`> i'm going to use it as a stack :-)
16:19:35 <ais523> $* = obsolete method of controlling /m on regexps?
16:19:42 <ais523> or am I thinking of something else?
16:21:09 <ehird`> no
16:21:12 <ehird`> $* = command line arguments
16:21:14 <ehird`> like bash
16:25:49 <ais523> hmm... /query ais523 actually works, and acts like cat
16:27:02 <ehird`> yes
16:27:09 <ehird`> it amounts to
16:27:17 <ehird`> :ais523blahblah PRIVMSG ais523 :hi
16:27:27 <ehird`> your client looks for a window for ais523blahblah
16:27:30 <ehird`> and inserts the message
16:27:48 <ehird`> ais523: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?RPN+calculator this will be interesting
16:27:48 <ehird`> :)
16:27:49 <ais523> why is my brainfuck auto-indenter not working?
16:28:49 <ais523> and ehird`: you should have made one of the examples much longer to hold off cheats
16:29:00 <ehird`> ais523: yeah, i guess so
16:29:01 <ehird`> :|
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16:30:45 <ehird`> ais523: why does anagolf have netcat but no net
16:30:45 <ehird`> :|
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16:38:25 <ehird`> I wonder what an open-source codegolf/anagolf blend would be like
16:38:34 <ais523> I'd like to see a blend, actually
16:38:35 <ehird`> User-centric like anagolf, but more polished (e.g. 'testing scripts')
16:38:43 <ais523> people could submit their own challenges but with test case generators
16:38:49 <ehird`> and open source, unlike codegolf -- also less central and administrated
16:38:51 <ais523> and a reference implementation to compare to
16:38:56 <ais523> which would also count as the first entry
16:39:23 <ehird`> ais523: I would do it but take a look at anagolf's code: http://golf.shinh.org/sag.tgz
16:39:32 <ais523> also, I'd like to see tags like (cheat) and (embed) as part of the system
16:39:32 <ehird`> I can't hope to write something that crazy, it'd just end up insecure
16:39:41 <ehird`> ais523: it counts (sym) and (bin)
16:39:43 <ais523> so you can have separate cheat and noncheat tables
16:40:00 <ais523> and autodetection of if something is a cheat
16:40:06 <ais523> e.g. look for file reads on quine programs
16:40:18 <ehird`> ais523: but seriously, look at anagolf's code... it has a seperate server and stuff!
16:40:37 <ehird`> and watch.c is crazy
16:40:38 * ais523 hasn't looked at the code yet, but is not surprised it's that complicated
16:40:43 <ehird`> it *overrides syscall*
16:40:51 <ehird`> literally. in libc.
16:41:01 <ais523> maybe you could make a simpler version which used nothing but interpreted languages
16:41:10 <ais523> and use the sandboxing features of the interps
16:41:17 <ehird`> most interps have crap sandboxing/.
16:41:20 <ehird`> even with a chroot.
16:41:28 <ais523> (in cases of langs like Brainfuck, you could write a sandboxed interp yourself)
16:41:40 <ais523> Perl allegedly has a sandboxing module that can be used
16:41:43 <ais523> although I've never tried it
16:42:28 <ehird`> hm, anagolf started in 2007? i thought it was older
16:43:30 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:46:35 <ais523> yay, I think I got the BF indenter working
16:48:27 * ais523 gets to work on a BF strip-comments program
16:48:39 <ais523> as an enhancement to my esolang Emacs package
16:48:51 -!- oerjan has set topic: THIS IS NOT THE TOPIC.
16:48:57 <ais523> that includes the Unlambda code I showed you before, among other things
16:50:24 <ais523> for some reason, I keep pressing g rather than f in the word 'buffer'...
16:55:22 <ehird`> ais523: tee hee, i'm writing a genuine evil c compiler
16:55:22 <ehird`> :D
16:55:23 <ehird`> compiles to ruby
16:55:42 <ais523> along the same lines as my 'simple language' compiler?
16:55:46 <ehird`> yeah
16:55:50 <ehird`> and presumably the postscript one
16:55:51 <ehird`> but less involved
16:56:14 <ehird`> hm
16:56:19 <ehird`> i think this parses differently in ruby than in c
16:56:20 <ehird`> if (n%3==0 && n%5==0)
16:56:39 <ehird`> hm
16:56:40 <ehird`> nope
16:56:42 <ehird`> in line 22, at the end
16:56:54 <ais523> what's the difference?
16:58:18 <ehird`> ais523: not sure
16:58:23 <ehird`> i think the == and && bind differntly
16:58:30 <ehird`> http://pastebin.ca/894031 here's my code so far
16:58:30 <ehird`> :-)
16:58:40 <ais523> Perl deliberately chose to use the same operator precedences as C to avoid confusion
16:59:58 <ehird`> ah wait
17:00:03 <ehird`> else if -> elsif
17:00:03 <ehird`> :-)
17:00:08 <ais523> grr... why do KDE and Gnome apps spout lots of garbage to stderr when run under the other window manager?
17:00:33 <ehird`> yay, it worked!!!!
17:01:04 <ais523> oh, there's an error in the RPN problem
17:01:06 <ehird`> http://pastebin.ca/894033 final version
17:01:10 <ehird`> ais523: is there
17:01:11 <ehird`> crap
17:01:12 <ais523> one of the examples uses 'mod' as infix rather than postfix
17:01:12 <ehird`> what is it
17:01:18 <ehird`> oh crap
17:01:19 <ehird`> :|
17:01:32 <ehird`> can you submit one the same but called rpn calculator(FIXED) andwith that fixed? or am i going to have to do it myself :P
17:01:55 <ais523> submit the fixed version, say it's a fix in the description, and maybe shinh will remove the unfixed version
17:02:10 <ais523> but even if not, people will know what's happened and hopefully aim only for the new one
17:02:57 <ehird`> hahah, "prdeff"
17:03:00 <ehird`> it caught my "int" :)
17:04:51 <ehird`> ais523: http://pastebin.ca/894040 shorter but less robust compiler
17:05:03 <ehird`> c is quite trivial! ;)
17:05:22 <ais523> yes, when it doesn't use many language features
17:05:32 <ais523> and the ones it does are implemented in the target language with much the same syntax
17:06:22 <ais523> my BF comment stripper is working now as well
17:06:44 <ehird`> ais523: make a long rpn example and i'll add that ;P
17:07:27 * ais523 loads up dc
17:07:52 <ehird`> just using my commands and semantics though!
17:07:58 <ais523> yes
17:08:09 <ais523> I'm writing \np\n rather than p, and restricting myself to + - * /
17:09:44 <ehird`> uh
17:09:45 <ehird`> and ^
17:09:46 <ehird`> and mod
17:09:54 <ais523> yes, I didn't use those
17:09:59 <ais523> although I could have, I suppose
17:10:01 <ehird`> okay
17:10:05 <ehird`> involve floating point somehow
17:10:07 <ehird`> but not bignums
17:10:09 <ais523> I have
17:10:10 <ehird`> or bigfloats
17:10:15 <ehird`> i.e. only trivial floating points
17:10:26 <ehird`> preferably, double-fitting
17:11:28 <ehird`> ais523: http://pastebin.ca/894042 this yours?
17:11:38 <ais523> yes
17:11:50 <ais523> I have it invoked from my .emacs
17:11:59 <ais523> it's still a work in progress, though, so it's only a paste for now
17:12:04 <ehird`> ais523: does it highlight idioms differently? :D:D
17:12:08 <ais523> you'll notice bits of it are commented out because they don't do anything
17:12:10 <ehird`> like [-]
17:12:11 <ais523> ehird`: only a few idioms
17:12:16 <ehird`> omg \o/
17:12:17 <ais523> [-] is one of the ones that is highlighted
17:12:25 <ais523> and [-]+++++++++++ (etc)
17:12:30 <ais523> but nothing else in BF yet
17:12:36 <ehird`> ais523: also
17:12:42 <ais523> otherwise, +-/<>/,./[] all have different colour schemes
17:12:43 <ehird`> re: "macros should be done with lambda and quote"
17:12:48 <ehird`> you ALREADY have required macros:
17:12:50 <ehird`> cond
17:12:54 <ehird`> defun
17:12:57 <ehird`> lambda
17:13:07 <ehird`> And even if you made THEM functions taking quotes -- you have one final special form
17:13:08 <ehird`> quote.
17:13:18 <ais523> yes, well I may as well write idiomatically given the existence of the language
17:13:20 <ehird`> and once you have that, it's purest not to make it a special case, and allow extension.
17:13:27 <ehird`> no -- i mean, in general
17:13:29 <ehird`> not just in your code
17:13:51 <ehird`> also -- get rid of your nested ifs, use cond :)
17:13:55 <ais523> (quote ...) seems really wrong to me
17:14:03 <ais523> although '(...) is fine
17:14:07 <ehird`> ais523: that's syntax.
17:14:09 <ehird`> syntax is wrong.
17:14:13 <ehird`> '(...) is very modern!
17:14:18 <ehird`> and i mean very
17:14:20 <ehird`> its recent
17:14:22 <ais523> not sure why, really, it's just like d in Unlambda: it goes so strongly against the grain of the language
17:14:29 <ehird`> no
17:14:40 <ehird`> it goes against the grain of the language you prefer which is wildly different from lisp
17:14:46 <ehird`> :|
17:14:47 <ais523> if something looks like a function, I get surprised when it isn't
17:15:01 <ehird`> (x ...) does not look like a function.
17:15:02 <ehird`> sorry.
17:15:08 <ais523> (+ 1 2)
17:15:08 <ehird`> anyway, how's the rpn example going?
17:15:11 <ais523> looks like a function call to me
17:15:16 <ais523> ehird`: finished, but I haven't pasted it yet
17:15:19 <ehird`> ais523: maybe it does, but that's not what (...) means
17:15:20 <ais523> I was going to when you interrupted
17:15:58 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/894058
17:16:03 <ais523> the ==== separates the input and output
17:16:08 <ais523> I'm not sure about the last case, though
17:16:17 <ais523> maybe we should change it to something that doesn't end .0
17:16:29 <ais523> because dc's precision rules are likely to be different from those to many other languages
17:17:28 <ehird`> ais523: i think yours is a bit too obscure, yeah
17:17:34 <ehird`> it doesn't allow efficient implementation
17:17:40 <ais523> just get rid of the last case and we'll be fine
17:17:52 <ehird`> also, ais523 -- that's still far easier to cheat than to do correctly
17:18:02 <ais523> really?
17:18:26 <ehird`> yeah!
17:18:51 <ehird`> i mean, we have a few lines of output, some of which are similar enough that they could be combined with some trickery
17:18:58 <ehird`> whereas an rpn calc impl isn't that trivial
17:19:16 <ais523> I suppose so...
17:19:27 <ais523> well, you could always get out dc and type in a lot more commands
17:20:24 * ais523 is still working on the uudecode-in-BF
17:21:31 <ehird`> ais523: so .0 or not .0?
17:21:42 <ais523> don't generate any test cases with trailing 0s
17:21:51 <ais523> and make them all come out exactly in decimal so as to avoid precision problems
17:21:55 <ehird`> ruby outputs as .0 actually.
17:21:59 <ehird`> :/
17:22:00 <ais523> interesting
17:22:09 <ais523> presumably because the output had been floating-point-ised
17:22:18 <ehird`> perl doesn't though
17:22:35 <ais523> we'll just have to make sure that the digit after the decimal point is nonzero in every test case
17:22:45 <ehird`> ais523: OK
17:22:49 <ehird`> so - 482.3
17:23:18 <ehird`> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?RPN+calculator+FIXED
17:24:43 <ais523> test.sh: line 3: dc: command not found
17:24:52 <ais523> pity, I was hoping to make a really short bash entry
17:25:00 <ais523> by using sed to compile into dc first
17:25:02 <ehird`> try:
17:25:04 <ehird`> ls /
17:25:06 <ehird`> and ls /bin
17:25:09 <ehird`> and stuff
17:25:11 <ehird`> to see what youcan do
17:25:32 <ehird`> I have a question
17:25:39 <ehird`> Is there any implementation of TURKEY BOMB? :)
17:25:43 <ais523> no
17:25:46 <ais523> I started work on one once
17:25:55 <ais523> got further than you would think possible looking at the spec
17:26:01 <ais523> but gave up after a while
17:26:20 <ais523> BTW, I think it's possible to interpret the ambiguities in the spec in such a way as to make it Turing-complete
17:26:44 -!- Hiato has joined.
17:27:43 <ais523> void* TURKEYBOMB = &TURKEYBOMB; /* the whole point! */
17:27:43 <Hiato> Allo allo allo :P
17:27:50 <ais523> hello
17:28:02 <ehird`> ais523: probably not the best way to do it :P
17:28:11 <ais523> I'm just following the spec
17:28:14 <ehird`> i know
17:28:15 <ehird`> but i mean
17:28:18 <ais523> and a TURKEY BOMB is most definitely a reference to itself
17:28:35 <ehird`> struct tb { struct tb *val; } TURKEY_BOMB;
17:28:39 <ehird`> hm
17:28:40 <ais523> I don't think the TURKEY BOMB itself actually becomes relevant anywhere in the code because there's no way to access it, but it has to exist
17:28:44 <ehird`> struct tb { struct tb *val; } *TURKEY_BOMB;
17:28:47 <ehird`> then initialize like so:
17:28:52 <ais523> char junk[15 - sizeof(void*) * 3]; /* a TRIVIA is exactly 15 bytes, no exceptions. */
17:28:58 <ehird`> TURKEY_BOMB=malloc(sizeof(*TURKEY_BOMB));
17:29:03 <ehird`> TURKEY_BOMB->val = TURKEY_BOMB;
17:29:05 <ais523> the code is littered by that sort of thing
17:29:19 <ais523> and ehird`: why would you use malloc when you can use compile-time initialisation?
17:29:26 <ehird`> because it's a pointer.
17:29:26 <ehird`> :|
17:29:29 <ehird`> ais523: you can access TURKEY BOMB like this:
17:29:30 <ehird`> TURKEY BOMB
17:29:35 <ais523> you can compile-time initialise a pointer
17:30:04 <ehird`> also, if you follow the Paradigm then you have to do crap with the TURKEY BOMB
17:30:13 <ais523> yes, you pass it round
17:30:16 <ais523> it's the instruction pointer
17:30:22 <ehird`> ais523: and..how
17:30:39 <ais523> you pass it from one player to another when certain events happen in-game
17:30:48 <ais523> it's how you implement conditionals and loops
17:31:05 <ehird`> ais523: how did you implement ZILCH?
17:31:10 <ehird`> void ZILCH[0]?
17:31:15 <ais523> typedef void ZILCH;
17:31:27 <ehird`> pfft
17:31:28 <ais523> AMICED was more interesting
17:31:28 <ehird`> :)
17:31:34 <ehird`> hm yes
17:31:35 <ais523> there isn't actually an AMICED datatype
17:31:38 <ais523> but rather NEGATIVE_AMICED
17:31:42 <ehird`> brilliant
17:31:51 <ais523> which is stored in any PUDDING that doesn't contain the AMICED in question
17:31:53 <ehird`> Two thirds of a bit plus half a trit.how did you do that :-|
17:32:05 <ais523> stored it as a 2-bit int
17:32:06 <ais523> with padding
17:32:29 <ais523> but there are semantics that make it act vaguely like the spec requires
17:32:33 <ais523> and that's enough for me
17:33:37 <ehird`> are there any turkey bomb programs?
17:33:39 <ais523> even worse: struct HUMIDOR <class T1,T2,T3>
17:33:45 <ais523> and ehird`: not as far as I know
17:33:48 <ais523> because the spec is so ambiguous
17:33:57 <ehird`> ais523: uhhhh, C++?
17:33:58 <ehird`> eep.
17:34:01 <ais523> yes
17:34:09 <ais523> it seemed fitting somehow
17:34:12 <ehird`> heh
17:34:37 <ehird`> hm, what esolang needs an implementation but seems hard to give one? :-)
17:34:41 <ehird`> ooh, twoducks! ;)
17:34:51 <ais523> I have some thought on writing a twoducks implementation
17:35:03 <ais523> that would try out lots of testcases to try to get the timeline consistent
17:35:09 <ais523> sort-of brute forcing a timeline that works
17:35:15 <ehird`> heh :)
17:35:27 <ehird`> i had an idea for a Scheme-omega implementation
17:35:37 <ehird`> it would introduce a type, MAYBE
17:35:44 <ehird`> no constructor, but is of the form:
17:35:46 <ehird`> MAYBE a b
17:35:53 <ehird`> H would always return MAYBE #t #f
17:36:15 <ehird`> the truth value of MAYBE a b is:
17:36:20 <ehird`> if a and b, #t
17:36:24 <ehird`> if not a and not b, #f
17:36:35 <ehird`> otherwise, MAYBE (truth-value a) (truth-value b)
17:36:53 <ehird`> ais523: if when given a MAYBE would also give a MAYBE etc
17:37:13 <ehird`> no IO, but if you wanted it it would just require you to choose a branch and stick to it if we ever 'might' execute some IO :)
17:37:34 <ehird`> at the end it would just dump out all the 'maybe's and exit
17:37:53 <ais523> incidentally, my idea for TC TURKEY BOMB was to define the ! command to take two of the trit parts of the BI_ITs, and calculate their maximum value, returning it in binary-coded-ternary in the bit parts
17:38:03 <ais523> it would shortcircuit from left-to-right
17:38:31 <ehird`> i would like to see a brainfuck interp in TURING BOMB
17:39:20 <ais523> if you then place a pointer dereference to generate one of the BI_ITs, it will skip the next player's turn at the right moment to cause everything to work correctly
17:40:04 <ehird`> http://it.geocities.com/tonibin/owl/owl.html is this in the esolang wiki?
17:40:07 <ehird`> successor to bogusforth
17:40:09 <ais523> (a \2 \x) (a a \x) ^L b (\\x) ^L GARNISH GARNISH x ^L c
17:40:26 <ais523> is what I have in my notes as TURKEY BOMB for if(a = 2) b; else c;
17:40:45 <ais523> but it's heavily abbreviated; the 2 actually refers to four advisories that together dereference to a variable containing 2
17:40:55 <ais523> and ^L is the formfeed character
17:41:14 <ehird`> why formfeed?
17:41:21 * ais523 can't quite remember
17:41:31 <ais523> from context I guess it means 'next player's turn'
17:41:37 <ais523> but I'm not sure why I chose that character in particular
17:41:51 <ais523> btw, ehird`, the page you linked says that it's a stub on esolang
17:42:00 <ais523> "A small hook is still present at esoteric.voxelperfect.net, and precisely here"
17:42:01 <ehird`> ais523: maybe it's each player?
17:42:23 <ais523> skipping a player's turn is how you do control flow
17:42:27 <ais523> that, and garnishing
17:42:51 <ais523> control flow is nondeterministic but that example generates a loop which can only be escaped by the right combination of random events happening
17:44:28 <ais523> so the code itself is deterministic but the length of time it takes to run isn't
17:47:20 <ehird`> completely unrelated:
17:47:28 <ehird`> vim's scheme indentation is as good as emacs' :|
17:47:31 <ehird`> seriously, it handles everything
17:47:33 <ehird`> crazy
17:47:47 <ehird`> uh
17:47:50 <ehird`> everything except 'if'
17:47:51 <ehird`> o.O
17:49:11 <oerjan> emacs's is buggy on ifs in do blocks, i hear
17:49:36 <ehird`> oerjan: well, it indents if like so:
17:49:37 <ehird`> (if a
17:49:38 <ehird`> b
17:49:41 <ehird`> c)
17:49:43 <ehird`> i.e. doesn't align them
17:49:48 <ehird`> which is arguably nicer, actually
17:50:54 <oerjan> it has to indent then and else relative to if in do blocks, i heard it doesn't
17:53:35 <ehird`> so how much interest is there in a PEBBLE-alike, but self-hosted, with lisp syntax and lisp macros?
17:53:51 <ais523> what do you mean by self-hosted?
17:54:15 <ehird`> ais523: is written in itself.
17:54:27 * ais523 likes languages like that
17:54:27 <ehird`> with a seperate, less featured compiler solely for the purpose of bootstrapping, in some other language, of course
17:54:41 <ehird`> so... interest level=? :)
17:54:49 <ais523> why don't you have several bootstrap compiles
17:54:54 <ais523> *compilers
17:55:03 <ais523> one written in BF to compile the one written in selfhost1
17:55:14 <ais523> the selfhost2 compiler is written in selfhost1
17:55:26 <ais523> the selfhost3 compiler is written in selfhost2, and so on, until you have the whole language
17:55:41 <ais523> where the numbered selfhost langs are subsets of the full lang
17:56:13 <ais523> even better, if you had a lang like CLC-INTERCAL that could modify itself dynamically, you could create new syntax with one line and use it with the next
17:56:27 <ais523> hmm... maybe there should be a lang whose only primitive is the one to define new syntax
17:56:37 <ais523> and the standard library boots up from there
17:56:49 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL does that but cheats by relying on a very rich syntax for defining new commands
17:57:06 <ais523> (effectively you write bytecode implementations for them, where the bytecode machine is defined elsewhere)
17:57:19 <ehird`> ais523: no, that's crazy :)
17:57:27 <ais523> why?
17:57:34 <ehird`> but is there a lot of interest in the idea i actually said?
17:57:35 <ehird`> :)
17:57:44 <ais523> not really
17:57:57 <ais523> if you could write 'macro' in Lisp then it would get more interesting
17:58:14 <ehird`> but.. it's pebble, but cooler
17:58:15 <ehird`> :<
17:58:16 <ais523> as in, actually implement the 'macro' keyword using only macros
17:58:25 <ehird`> it's practical!
18:01:13 <oerjan> so was Titanic. and unsinkable, too!
18:01:29 <oerjan> (sorry :) )
18:01:31 <ehird`> yeah, well, mine's lispy :(
18:01:48 <ehird`> it's PEBBLE, but with sane syntax, and more powerful macros
18:01:49 <ehird`> :(
18:01:56 <ais523> if the Titanic was made from Lisp, it would have sunk almost instantly
18:02:03 <ais523> parens are terrible at being waterproof
18:02:14 <ais523> they don't nail together at all well
18:02:47 <oerjan> and if it had been made from Haskell, it would have refused to leave the harbour...
18:03:02 <ehird`> oerjan: they used GHC.
18:03:04 <ehird`> unsafePerformIO.
18:04:25 <ais523> they should have made it from Whitespace
18:04:47 <oerjan> unsafeApproachIcebergs
18:05:04 <ehird`> oerjan: approaching the iceberg was safe
18:05:08 <ehird`> hitting it and sinking was not
18:07:54 <oerjan> ah but they used unsafeApproachIcebergs rather than approachIcebergs which checks for ice underwater as well
18:08:03 <ais523> what does unsafePerfomIO do?
18:08:36 <ehird`> unsafePerformIO :: IO a -> a
18:08:38 <ehird`> :)
18:08:48 <ehird`> also enables writing of
18:08:50 <oerjan> that tells it all, really :)
18:08:51 <ehird`> coerce :: a -> b
18:08:55 <ehird`> oerjan: :)
18:09:10 <ais523> and presumably just runs the IO command whenever it happens to be executed, whether that's 0 or more than 1 times in the program?
18:09:34 <ais523> ISTR C++ has a 'coerce anything to anything else' operator
18:09:39 <ehird`> ais523: it just happens... whenever
18:09:42 <ais523> that sometimes fails at runtime when you try to use it
18:09:43 <ehird`> there are no guarantees
18:09:53 <ehird`> it might work, depending on the weather
18:10:17 <oerjan> ais523: more or less, except you cannot predict whether it is called more often, or exactly when
18:11:08 <oerjan> because the compiler treats it as if it is pure, and assumes it can be shared/duplicated like pure code
18:11:12 * ais523 feels justified in their incorrect belief that 'Haskell just evaluates things at random until the program is complete'
18:11:30 <ais523> it helps me to write correct code, anyway, even though evaluation order is meant to be defined
18:11:51 <ehird`> it's not really defined
18:11:58 <ehird`> the report says 'non-strict evaluation' and leaves it at that
18:12:01 <ais523> and the successor to Underload is going to use that evaluation strategy; a strict/lazy mix depending on what the compiler feels like
18:12:16 <ais523> compiler or interpreter
18:12:53 <ehird`> i love how we all refer to underload as a static kind of language
18:13:03 <ehird`> as if it didn't act really self-modifying :)
18:13:14 <ais523> but it isn't self-modifying
18:13:16 <ais523> just self-assembling
18:15:31 <ehird`> yes
18:15:36 <ehird`> but that's not how it was viewed, before
18:16:31 <ais523> grr... anyone know of an online BF interpreter that allows characters other than <>+-[],. in the program and that doesn't error out on EOF?
18:18:03 <ehird`> no, should i write one
18:18:22 <ais523> ISTR oerjan pointed me to one before, but I can't remember where it was and Google isn't showing it up
18:18:29 <ais523> writing one may be faster
18:18:40 <ais523> oh, it has to have debug features that show the tape as well
18:18:45 <ais523> otherwise there are plenty
18:19:30 <oklopol> ais523: i've made one
18:19:30 <ehird`> sounds like a job for me, if only i had my awesomejsframework written
18:19:42 <oklopol> some php scribblie
18:19:45 <ais523> oklopol: where is it?
18:19:54 <oklopol> vjn.fi, in applications, i think
18:19:58 * oerjan vaguely recalls the bf online interpreter he found stopped working after a while
18:20:01 <oklopol> not sure, it seems i've been banned from there :)
18:20:02 <ehird`> it's in bash, ais523
18:20:04 <ehird`> that won't be good :)
18:20:16 <ehird`> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Drop+first+line bash entry: read;cat
18:20:37 <ehird`> oklopol: they stole your url submitter! http://vjn.cc/ :p
18:20:54 <ais523> oklopol: how did you end up banned from it?
18:21:05 <ais523> and that isn't an online interpreter running there, but rather its source code
18:21:56 <ehird`> perl submission:
18:21:58 <ehird`> <>;print<>
18:23:05 <oklopol> ehird`: vjn.cc is ours
18:23:06 <oklopol> :)
18:23:17 <oklopol> ais523: wut
18:23:27 <oklopol> it should not be its source...
18:23:42 <oklopol> and i have no idea why i'm banned, one day i just couldn't load the page from this ip anymore
18:23:43 <ais523> sorry, I was wrong
18:23:49 <ais523> it is running there
18:23:54 <ais523> it's just the link to it says 'download'...
18:23:58 <oklopol> :DD
18:23:59 <oklopol> yeah
18:24:07 <oklopol> the interface currently only allows that
18:24:26 <oklopol> php shit will go into "tools", later
18:24:50 <oklopol> what a shame you don't know finnish, the english-finnish converter owns ass :)
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18:40:19 <ehird`> ais523: wanna help me debug my rpn calc?;)
18:40:25 <ais523> if you like
18:40:29 <ehird`> hehe
18:40:30 <ais523> what's going wrong?
18:40:47 <ehird`> http://pastebin.ca/894140
18:40:55 <ehird`> my output on the fisrt is
18:40:55 <ehird`> 4
18:40:56 <ehird`> ERR
18:40:56 <ehird`> 4
18:40:57 <ehird`> 5
18:41:05 <ehird`> hm
18:41:07 <ehird`> i eff up on ^
18:41:10 <ehird`> but that's not the main problem
18:41:36 <ehird`> and, well
18:41:38 <ehird`> it just messes up
18:41:39 <ehird`> :P
18:42:13 <ais523> what code do you get if you print out $_ rather than evalling it?
18:42:20 <ais523> and isn't the $_= in the last line rather redundant?
18:42:53 <ehird`> i dunno if eval sets $_
18:43:01 <ehird`> nope
18:43:02 <ais523> you don't need to set it
18:43:07 <ehird`> hm
18:43:08 <ehird`> good point
18:43:10 <ais523> because the puts does all your output
18:43:37 <ehird`> the first compiles to:
18:43:38 <ehird`> $*<<2; $*<<2; $*<<$*.pop+$*.pop;puts$*[-1];\n
18:43:38 <ehird`> $*<<0; if(x=$*.pop)==0;puts'ERR'else $*<<x/$*.pop end;puts$*[-1];\n
18:43:38 <ehird`> $*<<1; $*<<$*.pop+$*.pop;puts$*[-1];
18:43:46 <ehird`> hmm
18:43:50 <ehird`> maybe i should base it on the whole input
18:43:54 <ais523> oh, the error is that you still run the next puts() after a division by 0
18:44:01 <ehird`> ahh
18:44:06 <ehird`> easily fixed
18:44:21 <ehird`> gsub"/\n","/ "
18:44:22 <ehird`> :)
18:44:33 <oklopol> ais523: did the interp work? or did you try it
18:44:36 <ehird`> damnit
18:44:38 <ehird`> only kind of works.
18:44:41 <ehird`> for the first test
18:44:45 <ais523> oklopol: I tried it
18:44:55 <oklopol> i think i either ran a thue interp in it, or ran a brainfuck interp in my thue interp
18:44:57 <oklopol> hmm
18:44:57 <ais523> it worked but wasn't very useful for my purposes because all it displayed was the output
18:45:00 <oklopol> i think it was the latter
18:45:07 <oklopol> oh, i see
18:45:18 <oklopol> it was just something i did to learn php
18:45:20 * ais523 is stuck on debugging the input code for their BF uudecode
18:46:14 <ehird`> ais523: anyway, it's weird
18:46:15 <ehird`> because i get
18:46:20 <ehird`> syntax errors.
18:46:22 <ehird`> oh
18:46:23 <ehird`> i don't handle
18:46:24 <ehird`> .
18:46:24 <ehird`> :)
18:47:01 <ehird`> test.rb:10: (eval):1:in `-': nil can't be coerced into Float (TypeError)
18:47:01 <ehird`> from (eval):1
18:47:02 <ehird`> :-|
18:47:12 <ais523> stack underflow
18:47:16 <ais523> but I wonder what caused it?
18:48:10 <ehird`> $*<<9.2; $*<<0.1; $*<<$*.pop+$*.pop;puts$*[-1];\n
18:48:10 <ehird`> 9.3\n
18:48:10 <ehird`> $*<<$*.pop-$*.pop; $*<<5;puts$*[-1];
18:48:13 <ehird`> that's what it gets up to
18:49:02 <ais523> well, that compiled code you show looks like a stack underflow to me
18:49:19 <ais523> gah, the example is wrong AGAIN!
18:49:21 <ais523> sorry
18:49:33 <ais523> I should have written '5 -' on the second line...
18:49:37 <ais523> not sure how I didn't notice that
18:50:09 <ais523> ehird`: it's a problem with the example
18:50:20 <ehird`> sadfkla;sdfjklasdfhkjasdlfhklasjdfhkjlasdfhajklgakdfjgakdfghkjladfghkljadfadfghdfjkhdfg
18:50:27 <ais523> ?
18:50:33 <ehird`> submit a fixed version would you? :P
18:50:38 <ehird`> should just be a copy/paste+fix
18:50:41 * ehird` is lazy
18:53:13 <ais523> OK, done
18:54:22 <ais523> BTW, I managed to beat even GolfScript on the drop-first-line challenge using sed
18:54:26 <ehird`> nice name heh
18:55:24 <ais523> please let it be right this time...
18:55:36 <ehird`> wtf
18:55:36 <ehird`> i'm outputting 4\nERR
18:55:48 <ais523> wrong sort of quotes?
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18:56:08 <ehird`> http://www.modeemi.fi/~chery/lisp500/lisp500.c <-- arthur winfrey would be proud
18:56:30 <ehird`> ais523: you messed the examples.
18:56:34 <ehird`> you forgot to add an extra newline to them all.
18:56:35 <ais523> what, again?
18:56:47 <ehird`> so, after pasting, hit 'ENTER' at the end of them exactly once
18:56:48 <ehird`> :P
18:56:56 <ais523> no, leave it as it is
18:57:07 <ais523> the golf entries can append the newline themselves
18:57:25 <ais523> it'll save riling up shinh further
18:57:40 <ais523> (the first version seems to have disappeared already)
18:57:55 <ehird`> ais523: no, it's important
18:57:57 <ehird`> otherwise it's against the spec
18:58:02 <ehird`> i can do it, i guess
18:58:09 <ehird`> i'll apologize in the descr. :)
18:59:39 <ehird`> your output:
18:59:39 <ehird`> 2\n
18:59:41 <ehird`> 9765625\n
18:59:43 <ehird`> 4
18:59:45 <ehird`> expected:
18:59:49 <ehird`> 1\n
18:59:51 <ehird`> 3125\n
18:59:53 <ehird`> 0.5\n
18:59:55 <ehird`> 1
18:59:57 <ehird`> bizzare
19:01:49 <ehird`> ais523: :/
19:01:55 <ais523> what is it this time?
19:02:27 <ehird`> beats me
19:02:59 <ehird`> ah, duh
19:03:00 <ehird`> of course
19:04:11 <ehird`> $*<<5; $*<<2; $*<<$*.pop%$*.pop;puts$*[-1];\n
19:04:11 <ehird`> 2\n
19:04:11 <ehird`> $*<<5; $*<<$*.pop*$*.pop; $*<<5; $*<<$*.pop**$*.pop;puts$*[-1];\n
19:04:11 <ehird`> 9765625\n
19:04:15 <ehird`> it should be:
19:04:17 <ehird`> 1, 3125
19:04:19 <ehird`> :|
19:04:49 <ais523> is << the push instruction?
19:04:55 <ais523> and ** exponentiation?
19:05:08 <ehird`> oh
19:05:11 <ehird`> i do things the wrong way around
19:05:11 <ehird`> :D
19:05:58 <ehird`> ashdfjashdfhkasdfkhasdf
19:06:01 <ehird`> ruby doesn't auto-float
19:06:01 <ehird`> :(
19:06:31 <slereah__> Once you pop, you can't stop.
19:07:28 <ehird`> ais523: aha
19:07:30 <ehird`> i can check with
19:07:38 <ehird`> x.to_i.to_f == x
19:07:42 <ehird`> and then back to int
19:07:44 <ehird`> mwahahaha
19:09:07 <ehird`> asdfahsdfahsdfhasdfhklasdfasdfadfhasdjflsdhasdfhlasdfhklasdfhdfhdfasdfsdf
19:10:24 <ehird`> ais523: heh, it works interactively
19:10:25 <ehird`> :D
19:12:46 <ehird`> ais523: http://pastebin.ca/894169
19:12:57 <ais523> does it work yet?
19:13:00 <ehird`> nope
19:13:04 <ehird`> it handles stuff wrong
19:13:08 <ehird`> because
19:13:13 <ehird`> ruby's / always produces an int unless given a float
19:13:19 <ehird`> so i have to convert to a float and check for .0
19:13:22 <ehird`> but it isn't working.
19:13:35 <ehird`> on the second example my last line of output is 1.0
19:13:43 <ehird`> oh
19:13:49 <ehird`> ais523: your examples are wrong.
19:13:53 <ais523> not again...?
19:13:56 <ais523> what is it this time?
19:13:58 <ehird`> you expect 0.5 2 * to produce an integer 1
19:14:10 <ehird`> basically, you expect everything to coerce to integers when possible
19:14:10 <ehird`> :|
19:14:18 <ais523> that was your example, not mine
19:14:33 <ais523> but yes, why not?
19:15:54 <ehird`> ig uess so
19:15:55 <ehird`> :P
19:16:14 <ais523> drop first line is coming along well
19:16:28 <ais523> my Brainfuck and Befunge-93 entries are exactly the same bytecount
19:17:11 <ehird`> eh, i give up on my rpn
19:17:12 <ehird`> :)
19:17:43 <ais523> I actually managed to reduce the Befunge to 20 bytes simply by deleting a stray final newline
19:17:53 <ais523> Anarchy Golf seems to be treating \n as \n\r for some reason
19:17:59 <ehird`> btw
19:18:00 <ais523> maybe if I use file upload, it'll be a byte shorter...
19:18:10 <ehird`> i don't get the 'vi' language
19:18:13 <ehird`> for drop first line i tried:
19:18:13 <ehird`> dd
19:18:15 <ehird`> but it didn't work
19:18:33 <ehird`> in fact, everything i try has no effect
19:19:04 <ehird`> ais523: by the way
19:19:16 <ehird`> how's this for a quine and palindromic quine:
19:19:44 <ehird`> puts"aa";File.open("test.rb"){|x|x.puts"aa"}
19:19:45 <ehird`> :)
19:19:54 <ais523> that isn't palindromic
19:19:56 <ais523> and it's a cheat
19:20:01 <ehird`> ais523: aah, but read it
19:20:03 <ehird`> it becomes palindromic
19:20:05 <ehird`> magically.
19:20:23 <ais523> what, it overwrites its own source code to change it to its own output
19:20:26 <ais523> that is very cheating
19:20:32 <ehird`> yes, but very clever
19:20:37 <ais523> who wrote that?
19:20:39 <ehird`> me
19:20:48 <ais523> wait till after the deadline, then you can try it
19:20:52 <ehird`> aww, anagolf looks at the program before executing
19:20:52 <ehird`> :|
19:21:01 <ais523> OTOH, I think shinh said he was banning file save
19:21:36 * ais523 managed to save one char on a newline-containing entry by using file upload so that \n didn't have a \r auto-added
19:24:21 <ais523> BTW, the vi entry for drop first line is apparently ddZZ
19:24:25 <ehird`> ais523: give me a long chunk of text so i can avoid cheaters in a challenge i'm making
19:24:30 <ais523> it says so on the front page of golf.shinh.org itself
19:24:37 <ehird`> ah i see, you have to save
19:24:42 <ais523> and I submitted it with an appropriate (comment)
19:24:52 <ehird`> oh crap, there's ALREADY taht challenge
19:24:52 <ehird`> :(
19:24:57 <ais523> no there isn't
19:25:01 <ehird`> oh
19:25:02 <ehird`> good
19:25:02 <ehird`> heh
19:25:03 <ehird`> :)
19:25:11 <ais523> I searched for it and shinh apparently just used it as an example without realising it hadn't been submitted
19:25:33 <ehird`> perhaps it should be a 'never ending' one
19:25:37 <ehird`> because of its ubiquity
19:25:53 * ais523 likes to be able to see the source code when the challenge ends
19:26:19 <ais523> for a long chunk of text you could copy one of the articles from esolangs.org
19:26:24 <ais523> it's all public domain, after all
19:26:38 <ehird`> eh
19:26:41 <ehird`> i'm using lorem ipsum
19:27:41 <ais523> hmm... that 'delete first line' might even be reasonably plausible in HOMESPRING
19:27:46 <ais523> and it's hard to write anything in that language
19:27:51 <ais523> except cat
19:30:32 <ehird`> ais523: with vi how can i chop off the last eof of a file? :|
19:30:47 * ais523 didn't even realise it was possible to delete an EOF
19:30:56 <ais523> wouldn't that cause the file to run into the next one on a disk?
19:31:06 <ehird`> err
19:31:07 <ehird`> newline
19:31:07 <ehird`> heh
19:31:08 <ehird`> :D
19:31:17 <ehird`> also, that would be cool
19:31:18 <ehird`> :P
19:31:19 * ais523 is not very used to vi
19:33:14 <ehird`> ais523: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Encoder+decoder
19:33:22 <ehird`> i believe the example is real enough to give real submissions
19:33:22 <ehird`> ;)
19:33:34 <ehird`> also, i haven't seen that silly encryption elsewhere
19:33:42 <ehird`> even though it does quite a good job of making text jumbled 'randomly'
19:36:17 <ehird`> actually
19:36:21 <ehird`> a vi solution to that might be easy
19:36:21 <ehird`> :D
19:36:22 * ais523 has done the encode in 24 bytes of BF
19:36:29 <ehird`> ais523: wow. show?
19:36:36 <ehird`> and -- just now?
19:36:39 <ais523> ,,,,,,,,.,+[>,.,+]<[-.<]
19:36:42 <ais523> yes, just now
19:36:46 <ehird`> okay.
19:36:50 <ais523> the commas at the start are to skip over the string 'encode'
19:36:54 <ehird`> maybe i should have made seperate 'encode' and 'decode'
19:36:55 <ehird`> :)
19:37:39 <ais523> no, doing it like this gives BF less of an unfair advantage :)
19:37:47 <ais523> the decode is substantially harder, by the way
19:38:10 <ehird`> ais523: but isn't it better to have seperate decode and encode programs?
19:38:15 <ehird`> instead of mashing two golf challenges into one
19:38:17 <ais523> probably
19:38:20 <ais523> but you've submitted it now
19:38:26 <ehird`> darn :)
19:39:40 <ais523> the problem with the decode is finding the middle of the string in advance
19:39:46 <ais523> BF isn't very good at that
19:39:58 <ehird`> indeed
19:39:58 <ehird`> but
19:39:59 <ehird`> same with sed
19:40:00 <ehird`> etc
19:40:02 <ais523> I suppose I could make a semicheat entry that simply had it hardcoded...
19:40:03 <ehird`> so.. i'm worried
19:40:16 <ehird`> http://www.antlr.org/wiki/display/CS652/How+To+Read+C+Declarations # this would be a good golf challenge
19:41:09 <ais523> ah, good old cdecl
19:42:25 <ehird`> yes
19:46:14 <ais523> "This extremely powerful program can actually add two arbitrary digits together, in only twenty seconds or so on a fast machine!"
19:46:29 <ais523> -- from the HOMESPRING docs
19:46:47 <slereah__> ADDITION IN TWENTY SECONDS?
19:46:50 <slereah__> Boy oh boy!
19:47:03 <ais523> single-digit only
19:47:15 <slereah__> In unary?
19:47:26 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure how the program works
19:47:39 <slereah__> 1) Input
19:47:41 <ais523> although it recognises input and produces output by lookup table, which is never a good sign
19:47:42 <slereah__> 2) ???
19:47:46 <slereah__> 3) Profit!
19:48:12 <oerjan> 4) Blame someone else
19:48:19 <slereah__> The jews?
19:48:37 <oerjan> the scientologists are good to blame these days
19:49:01 <oerjan> hm, maybe not if you want to _keep_ that profit
19:49:12 <slereah__> The 10th of february, be very wary :o
19:49:41 <slereah__> The internet lacks a Guy Fawkes smiley.
19:50:01 <oklopol> 1. steal underpants 2. ??? 3. profit
19:50:05 <slereah__> |:{)>
19:50:44 <oerjan> :[-< <%%%
19:51:01 <oklopol> 8===D - - - - O:
19:51:10 <oklopol> i need coke
19:51:26 <slereah__> 8=m=D
19:51:30 <slereah__> 8m==D
19:51:33 <slereah__> 8=m=D
19:51:35 <oklopol> :)
19:51:37 <slereah__> 8==mD
19:51:40 * oerjan thinks oklopol must have misunderstood his smiley
19:51:41 <oklopol> hot stuff
19:51:44 <slereah__> 8==mD-------
19:51:52 <oerjan> that's an effigy, on a bonfire, just so you know it
19:52:00 <oklopol> oh
19:52:06 <lament> i'm trying to decide on the order in which i ban you all.
19:52:13 <lament> and the kick messages
19:52:16 <slereah__> Alphabetical?
19:52:30 <oklopol> :D
19:52:38 <lament> slereah__: too simple. It tries to be impartial, but really isn't
19:52:44 <oerjan> i say so too. especially as o comes after l.
19:52:54 <ehird`> ais523: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Calculator this one's clever :)
19:52:54 <slereah__> Random number generator?
19:52:57 <ehird`> and not that easy to cheat!
19:53:04 <ais523> and s comes last of the currently active people, and a comes first...
19:53:04 <ehird`> well, i mean
19:53:05 <ehird`> you can do
19:53:10 <ehird`> random selection
19:53:11 <ehird`> but :)
19:53:24 <lament> we could do it by popular vote
19:53:30 <lament> but which voting system?
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19:54:13 <slereah__> We declare states in the channel, and each states have a certain weight on the vote.
19:54:14 <ehird`> ok
19:54:17 <slereah__> Hell, if it works for the country that invented freedom and Coca Cola, why not here!
19:54:19 <ehird`> slereah__: ais523: oklopol: you're all in my state
19:54:25 <ehird`> everyone else is in the other state
19:54:35 <ehird`> we vote to kick everyone in the other state.
19:54:46 * ais523 doesn't see why they need to be kicked
19:55:07 <slereah__> We are Suppressive persons :o
19:55:44 <ehird`> ais523: it has to be them or us
19:55:45 <ehird`> :|
19:55:45 * oerjan starts a communist revolution in his state
19:56:20 <ehird`> main(c,x){gets(x);while((c=getchar())>-1)putchar(c);}
19:56:28 <ehird`> that's far larger than is neccessary for drop, isn't it ais523?
19:56:32 <ais523> probably
19:56:38 <ais523> using gets/puts could be faster
19:56:57 <ais523> BTW, the calculator problem doesn't look hard
19:56:59 <slereah__> You can declare variables in main? :o
19:57:03 * slereah__ sucks at C
19:57:10 <ais523> slereah__: it's K&R syntax
19:57:12 <oerjan> Hell, if it works for the country that invented freedom (in principle) and Borshch, why not here!
19:57:14 <ehird`> slereah__: i abuse argc, argv.
19:57:19 <slereah__> Kellogs and...?
19:57:20 <ais523> and UB at that, but the compiler would be unlikely to notice
19:57:25 <ehird`> ais523: and it's hard because it spreads over runs ;)
19:57:41 <ehird`> also, my 25char haskell entry: main=getLine>>interact id
19:57:43 <ehird`> what was yours?
19:57:47 <ais523> oh, I thought you were looking for an embed solution
19:58:00 <ais523> I would have written (embed) if I'd noticed
19:58:19 <ehird`> submit the same one and say
19:58:22 <ehird`> (^embed)
20:01:15 <ehird`> puts x=eval x=File.read("x")rescue x=eval x[0..-2]
20:01:18 <ehird`> that is CONFUSING
20:01:18 <ehird`> :D
20:01:20 <ais523> I did
20:01:34 <ais523> what does rescue do in Ruby?
20:01:40 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:02:31 <ehird`> ais523: x rescue y is equiv to:
20:02:37 <ehird`> begin; x; rescue; y; end
20:02:44 <ehird`> where rescue with no clause means 'every error'
20:02:57 <ehird`> it's a non-descriminate try/catch with the scope of one expression.
20:02:57 <ais523> like catch?
20:03:01 <ehird`> yes.
20:03:03 <ais523> OK
20:05:00 <oerjan> catch/halt fire. or was that the other way around...
20:05:11 <ehird`> ais523: i wish i had allowed exec
20:05:17 <ehird`> i was going to do a vi solution which called out to ruby after compiling
20:05:17 <ehird`> :-D
20:05:44 <ais523> but that would be less cool than a non-cheat entry in pure vi
20:06:51 <ehird`> :)
20:09:59 <ehird`> ais523: bash question
20:10:07 <ehird`> in $((x)), is there a way to 'rescue' on error?
20:10:17 <ais523> not sure
20:10:23 <ais523> maybe you could do something using trap
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20:56:52 <ais523> I managed the decoder part of the encoder decoder in 111 bytes of BF, but it times out on anagolf
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20:57:04 <ais523> string reverses are not very efficient when done character by character in unary...
20:57:27 <ais523> on my computer, the example took 3.626 seconds to run
20:57:33 <ais523> which is higher than the timeout of 1.5 seconds
21:03:08 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
21:06:27 <ais523> anybody still here?
21:07:41 <RodgerTheGreat> I am here
21:07:57 <RodgerTheGreat> 'sup, ais523?
21:08:02 <ais523> nothing much
21:08:11 <ais523> but I was wondering how the conversation had managed to die down
21:08:22 <ais523> presumably ehird` was busy working on something, as was I
21:08:30 <ais523> we were golfing...
21:08:35 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:09:14 <ais523> wow, someone managed the encoder decoder in 91 bytes of brainfuck
21:09:23 <ais523> which is smaller and faster than my separate encoder/decoder...
21:09:31 <ais523> there must be a trick to the decoder that I haven't noticed
21:09:39 <ais523> maybe they hardcoded the number of bytes in the input
21:09:42 <Sgeo> Hi all/No all/Sal cxiu/Coi
21:09:47 <ais523> hello
21:10:18 * Sgeo tries to get people to look at the recent changes on the esolangs.org wiki
21:10:28 <Sgeo> Anything interesting?
21:10:46 <ais523> one new page
21:10:52 <ais523> and me clearing up some spam
21:11:12 <ais523> it seems that you registered an example PSOX domain...
21:11:46 <Sgeo> I've silently finished PSOX 1.0 and am going to release it now
21:11:55 <Sgeo> Just kidding, but I'm regaining my interest in PSOX
21:12:12 <ais523> it might come in useful for adding file handling capabilities to INTERCAL
21:12:23 <ais523> how unusual is it?
21:13:57 <ais523> actually, one mildly related idea that I've been thinking about is some sort of massive compatibility layer that can be used to link programs in any language with programs in any other language
21:14:01 <ais523> especially esolangs
21:14:33 <ais523> not sure about the details, but one idea I had was to use an ASCII art-style description file which was a flowchart showing how things linked together
21:18:44 -!- GregorR has changed nick to GregorR-L.
21:19:19 -!- GregorR-L has changed nick to GregorR.
21:22:30 -!- cherez has left (?).
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22:01:05 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:10:33 <ais523> ehird`: if you're still here, you might want to know that the RPN challenge is correct now
22:10:42 <ais523> I've entered a working 155-byte Perl entry
22:11:19 <ais523> 152 with UNIX newlines
22:15:08 -!- ais523 has quit ("I have to go now").
22:21:37 <ehird`> who's alive
22:23:49 <Sgeo> me
22:24:03 <RodgerTheGreat> ehird`: no he isn't
22:24:19 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: ???
22:24:55 <RodgerTheGreat> I'll assume you aren't familiar with "who's on first"
22:25:22 <Sgeo> Who
22:25:25 <Sgeo> Who's dead?
22:25:44 * Sgeo didn't get it until RodgerTheGreat mentioned it
22:26:39 <Sgeo> ehird`, did you hear the news about PSOX?
22:26:53 <ehird`> it's still overengineered vaporware?
22:27:34 <Sgeo> I'm releasing PSOX 1.0 now! --- not really, but I regained interest
22:28:02 <ehird`> we should have a '600 line esolang' contest
22:28:15 <ehird`> the premise: implement the coolest esolang that isn't minimalistic in 600 lines of C
22:29:03 <Sgeo> Define 'minimalistic' such that you can sensibly judge every conceivable esolang.
22:29:46 <Sgeo> Also, I set up the PRI registration page
22:30:09 <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/PSOX/PRI
22:32:22 <ehird`> Sgeo: no.
22:32:27 <ehird`> Glass is not minimal, brainfuck is.
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22:37:09 <Sgeo> I'm thinking of changing file descriptors
22:37:54 <Sgeo> So that there aren't seperate functions for I and O, and ability to manipulate FDs other than the current one
22:37:56 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oklofok.
22:40:35 <ehird`> #So that there aren't seperate functions for I and O# that's retarded
22:41:03 <Sgeo> I meant, there's currently a seek function for infile descriptors and another for outfile descriptors
22:42:03 <Sgeo> ehird`, oklofok comments?
22:42:16 <oklofok> Sgeo: YEAH!
22:42:20 <ehird`> i don't like psox, much.
22:43:11 * Sgeo goes to make the first change in over a month
22:43:30 <Sgeo> ehird`, because you see it as vaporware, or are there other reasons?
22:44:44 <ehird`> eh.
22:46:01 <Sgeo> I don't think the description of FDs in psox.txt needs to change
22:48:38 <Sgeo> Hm, seeking through the current file descriptor will require knowing what the current file descriptor is..
22:48:41 <ehird`> fibs=1:1:zipWith(+)fibs(tail fibs)
22:48:41 <ehird`> main=do mapM print$take 46 fibs;return()
22:48:44 <ehird`> that could be shortened, heavily
22:49:36 <Sgeo> Maybe I should make 0 be a shorthand for current FD, and 1 is STDFD
22:49:53 * Sgeo goes to do that
22:53:36 <Sgeo> hm, actually, there's an oddity
22:54:13 <Sgeo> there is no "current" file descriptor, just the current infile descriptor and outfile descriptor
22:54:33 <Sgeo> So I can't use 0 to mean current FD
22:54:47 <Sgeo> unless 0 is current outfile, and 1 is current infile. 2 is stdfd
22:58:33 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
23:02:54 <Sgeo> Reached revision 50!
23:03:01 <Sgeo> Well, not 50!, but 50
23:03:10 <ehird`> you know what would be cool?
23:03:15 <ehird`> an esolang based on MapReduce
23:04:11 <Sgeo> http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/changeset?new=trunk%2Fspec%2Fpsox.txt%4050&old=trunk%2Fspec%2Fpsox.txt%4038
23:10:13 <Sgeo> I'm leaving in the out_ and in_ separate in the impl, because of STDFD..
23:10:16 <Sgeo> oshi-
23:11:22 <Sgeo> n/m, I'll make stdout 0x02 and stdin 0x03
23:11:35 <Sgeo> Unless I remove the "current file descriptor" shortcuts
23:12:57 <Sgeo> ehird`, any thoughts?
23:13:07 <ehird`> none because i have not looked.
23:14:08 <ehird`> who was that guy who beat malbolge with a rusty stick and mastered its secrets?
23:14:47 <Sgeo> I really should separate stdin and stdout
23:14:57 <Sgeo> But what about the shortcuts?
23:15:25 <Sgeo> Do I really need shortcuts? Maybe I could have a function return the current fd?
23:16:43 <Sgeo> oklofok, paying any attention?
23:17:44 <Sgeo> ehird`?
23:17:55 <ehird`> no because i don't care about psox
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23:37:32 <ehird`> so
23:37:41 <ehird`> anyone know of an esolang that's in dire need of an impl but nobody's bothered?
23:41:47 <olsner> what happened to ninjacode?
23:42:03 <ehird`> olsner: it's still going to be written; it's just on the back-burner
23:42:09 <ehird`> nc2 is the main priority now, for me: #nc2
23:42:21 <olsner> ninjacode 2?
23:42:36 <ehird`> ssh, i'm trying to avoid expanding the name :-)
23:42:44 <ehird`> kind of like how the J site desperately avoids mentioning APL...
23:43:03 <ehird`> olsner: you got bored fast
23:43:36 <olsner> heh, late night at work, so I'll be entering daily hibernation as soon as possible
23:45:27 <ehird`> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=FURscript&diff=6498&oldid=6496 <--I think this is probably better than the previous revision
23:47:48 <olsner> besides the profanity, I think they've got something going there
23:47:53 -!- zbrown has left (?).
23:51:41 <ehird`> olsner: oh noes, prrofanity, what will we do :D
23:54:06 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+").
23:54:31 <ehird`> hm
23:54:39 <ehird`> GolfScript was created by the same guy as Minus
23:55:30 <ehird`> !help
23:55:32 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
23:55:34 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
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